If, for whatever reason, Jane wanted to get rid of A.J. I'm certain that she would shoot him in the head, not leave him to be ripped apart and chewed on by dead people.
Even though bad people love their children, for some reason I just don't see Jane sticking around for anyone but herself. Look how she put Aj in danger by leaving him in a ice cold car, all just to "prove a point."
Even though bad people love their children, for some reason I just don't see Jane sticking around for anyone but herself. Look how she put Aj in danger by leaving him in a ice cold car, all just to "prove a point."
Jane hid AJ in the car and pretended that the baby was dead to Kenny, which was out of desperation to prove to Clementine that Kenny wasn't mentally adjusted enough to accept a baby's death in a situation where there's no shelter from the cold, and that they were heading to a location that no-one knows for sure that even exists.
Given how he immediately blames Jane for AJ's 'death' was to prove the point that had Clementine been the one to carry AJ in the blizzard, and if Clementine wasn't fortunate enough to keep him save in the blizzard or from the walkers, then what would stop Kenny from blaming her for AJ's actual death, given how he's quick to blame her for Sarita's death?
It was a stupid plan in the end, given all that Jane had to do was to simply ASK Clementine if she's agrees with Kenny's plan to go to Wellington and whether she still felt safe around him. But I cannot agree that Jane wanted the baby dead, given how easily she could have simply thrown the baby to the walkers or in the snow off-screen, and yet she chooses to safely hide him in the car in a location she know where it is.
Given how he immediately blames Jane for AJ's 'death' was to prove the point that had Clementine been the one to carry AJ in the blizzard, and if Clementine wasn't fortunate enough to keep him save in the blizzard or from the walkers, then what would stop Kenny from blaming her for AJ's actual death, given how he's quick to blame her for Sarita's death?
That's a really good point! I hadn't though about that until you mentioned it.
I cannot agree that Jane wanted the baby dead, given how easily she could have simply thrown the baby to the walkers or in the snow off-screen, and yet she chooses to safely hide him in the car in a location she know where it is.
Plus, she had made sure that car in which she hid A.J. had one of the windows down, so that he wouldn't run out of oxygen.
Jane hid AJ in the car and pretended that the baby was dead to Kenny, which was out of desperation to prove to Clementine that Kenny wasn't … morementally adjusted enough to accept a baby's death in a situation where there's no shelter from the cold, and that they were heading to a location that no-one knows for sure that even exists.
Given how he immediately blames Jane for AJ's 'death' was to prove the point that had Clementine been the one to carry AJ in the blizzard, and if Clementine wasn't fortunate enough to keep him save in the blizzard or from the walkers, then what would stop Kenny from blaming her for AJ's actual death, given how he's quick to blame her for Sarita's death?
It was a stupid plan in the end, given all that Jane had to do was to simply ASK Clementine if she's agrees with Kenny's plan to go to Wellington and whether she still felt safe around him. But I cannot agree that Jane wanted the baby dead, given how easily she c… [view original content]
Actually go back and watch Kenny's reaction to different characters death in season 1. At first he seems callous but then you see how he's really feeling like when he pulled Lee aside and was telling him how he felt about Greens son dying on the farm. Or how if you choose the right options he actually stays back at the risk of his own life to stay with Ben the guy who was partially responsible for his son's death. Kenny talks a lot of crap when he's angry but at the end of the day he tries to do what's right, and actually does feel bad about things.
Right, but it's the way in WHICH its determinant which is key.
Kenny makes his decision about whether he helps save Clem depending on whether he likes Lee, not on his relationship with Clementine. If he cared about her he'd come no matter what.
The difference between Jane, and Kenny is he is willing to stay with Clementine even if it means his own death. Jane will bolt. Different situations in the game have shown this.
Yeah because people actually run out of oxygen in a car... That doesn't happen. If anything it would let in more cold, or make his cries more audible to the Walkers.
Given how he immediately blames Jane for AJ's 'death' was to prove the point that had Clementine been the one to carry AJ in the blizzard, a… morend if Clementine wasn't fortunate enough to keep him save in the blizzard or from the walkers, then what would stop Kenny from blaming her for AJ's actual death, given how he's quick to blame her for Sarita's death?
That's a really good point! I hadn't though about that until you mentioned it.
I cannot agree that Jane wanted the baby dead, given how easily she could have simply thrown the baby to the walkers or in the snow off-screen, and yet she chooses to safely hide him in the car in a location she know where it is.
Plus, she had made sure that car in which she hid A.J. had one of the windows down, so that he wouldn't run out of oxygen.
The difference between Jane, and Kenny is he is willing to stay with Clementine even if it means his own death. Jane will bolt. Different situations in the game have shown this.
Okay, that car has been sitting there for two and a half years, under constant rain, sleet and snow. Don't you think the ventilation system could get blocked by all that ice?
Yeah because people actually run out of oxygen in a car... That doesn't happen. If anything it would let in more cold, or make his cries more audible to the Walkers.
Regardless of her intentions, she viewed AJ as AN OBJECT to help prove A POINT in the middle of a BLIZZARD.
The same blizzard that Kenny forced all three, Clementine, Jane, and AJ, to endure through with little to no supplies, no sense of direction, and at the high risk of either being eaten by walkers, starve to death, or to die from the cold given how harsh the blizzard is that had also cut off the majority of their vision during the trip.
Kenny willingly gambled with everyone's lives, including the baby he supposedly cared for, all for a hunch that could have gotten everyone involved killed either by hypothermia or being devoured, especially when a defenseless baby requires the nourishment and heat that Kenny did not provide given how he was more concerned about finding Wellington right now, which he didn't even know where it was, as opposed to actually taking care of the baby's needs above his own.
If Jane really cared for AJ, her main priority would have been to take him to a safe point and away from the dangers of the outside.
She did, hence why she gave the option to go back to Howe's, which is known to have shelter and food. It wasn't the best option available, but unlike Wellington, we know that the place exists and was secure enough to provide food and shelter. Instead, Kenny immediately dismisses the idea and continues to force everyone to drive through the blizzard aimlessly. As far as he was concerned, there's no other option but to go to Wellington, and he wasn't going to listen to reason.
But the fact that she used AJ to prove a point is very indicative of her attitude towards him as a baby.
Again, if she didn't really care for the baby, then why keep him alive in the car? Why not actually throw AJ to the walkers and say to Kenny that she stumbled into the walkers, and they snatched him away from her? Why not throw him into a snow pile, and say that she tripped and fell, and the baby died from the impact?
Her attitude to the baby is not the problem in this case, given how she ensured that he was safe and ensured that she wasn't going to let the baby die. Her plan was mainly about Kenny, not AJ, and it was to prove to Clementine that Kenny was not mentally sound and is losing his grip on logical reasoning, hence why they're exposed to many dangers in the blizzard because of Kenny.
Again, it was a stupid plan given how Jane could just simply ASK Clementine if she felt safe around Kenny and if she really did want to go to Wellington. Jane created the 'baby's death' plan out of desperation to convince Clementine that going to Wellington at this state was suicidal, and that Kenny was determined to set them onto a suicidal route whether everyone liked it or not.
If anyone was acting selfish and stupid in the end, it was Kenny, plain and simple. Jane was desperate and also stupid, but not selfish, otherwise she would have simply not bothered to return to the group in the first place and rescue Kenny from a Russian bandit, and potentially Clementine from drowning in the lake.
EXACTLY! Thank you. He even said in season 2 "i know i can be a real shit sometimes" but deep down he doesn't mean it. People who hate/dislike him are so quick to paint a picture of him as an evil person but he's not. His intentions are good in the sense that he means well and wants to do what's right even though at times he is irrational, doesn't think things through/stubborn etc.
Also, say that he perhaps suffered brain damage as some people suggest, if that was the case, if people truly understood mental health then they'd understand about someone who behaves in this manner and that they are hard to control but you wouldn't hate on them for something that is not entirely their fault would you? You wouldn't abandon a relative or friend you care about leaving them in a nursing home just because they are violent or horrible when he or she doesn't mean to be would you? Maybe some heartless people would but i would not. I would try to help them the best i can, to try and help them through it if i can because it's the right thing to do.
I want people to understand that I don't like or agree with "everything" Kenny ever did, i know he acted like an asshole several times and there were decisions he made that i didn't always agree with but iam extremely forgiving and always trusted the guy in my playthrough and that's how my Lee and Kenny were. And im sorry but i just cannot hate the guy like most (on these forums anyway) do. He's done bad things, but so has everyone. He's adapted to a world gone to shit in a way others around him haven't. I'm not saying it's right or a good thing but it is what it is. I guess im one of these people who will always have sympathy for him the way he lost his family all at once and what that does has an everlasting effect as i've also had a different terrible experience of loss before. Maybe it is also because i have an attachment to a season 1 character who's been around since the start, it's the same for me and the tv show with Rick, Daryl and Carol, you grow to love these characters.
Well there you go anyway. The usual people who read this don't have to like it but there it is.
Actually go back and watch Kenny's reaction to different characters death in season 1. At first he seems callous but then you see how he's … morereally feeling like when he pulled Lee aside and was telling him how he felt about Greens son dying on the farm. Or how if you choose the right options he actually stays back at the risk of his own life to stay with Ben the guy who was partially responsible for his son's death. Kenny talks a lot of crap when he's angry but at the end of the day he tries to do what's right, and actually does feel bad about things.
And you don't know if its warmer inside either lol. It wouldn't have been though and ive got into some horribly cold cars in snowy conditions before. Jane should have and could have found another way to make her point
and if Clementine wasn't fortunate enough to keep him save in the blizzard or from the walkers, then what would stop Kenny from blaming her for AJ's actual death, given how he's quick to blame her for Sarita's death?
The worst Kenny has or ever would do is get angry/verbally abusive to Clem which he never meant deep down, there were plenty of times he could have attacked her but didn't and i will always believe he would never harm her no matter what
Jane hid AJ in the car and pretended that the baby was dead to Kenny, which was out of desperation to prove to Clementine that Kenny wasn't … morementally adjusted enough to accept a baby's death in a situation where there's no shelter from the cold, and that they were heading to a location that no-one knows for sure that even exists.
Given how he immediately blames Jane for AJ's 'death' was to prove the point that had Clementine been the one to carry AJ in the blizzard, and if Clementine wasn't fortunate enough to keep him save in the blizzard or from the walkers, then what would stop Kenny from blaming her for AJ's actual death, given how he's quick to blame her for Sarita's death?
It was a stupid plan in the end, given all that Jane had to do was to simply ASK Clementine if she's agrees with Kenny's plan to go to Wellington and whether she still felt safe around him. But I cannot agree that Jane wanted the baby dead, given how easily she c… [view original content]
Sacrificing yourself to save another's life (for example, boxed in by walkers or Kenny taking what would have been Clem's place with the missing radio) is different than sacrificing yourself proving a point when that person isn't in direct danger.
He was angry enough to leave Clementine in the herd if she mercy kills Sarita after chopped her arm off to stop the bite from spreading or chooses not to, where she could have died. Sure Mike drags Kenny away, but Kenny makes no attempt to have Clementine follow, and instead shows that "Sarita's death is on her head". If Sarita's arm was not axed off, his main focus is Sarita and makes no effort to have Clementine follow them, leaving her in the herd again.
He can accidentally elbow Clementine in the face not long after falling into the frozen ice should she fall into it, should she try to intervene with Kenny needlessly beating Arvo rather than Kenny looking for a way to keep her and the baby warm.
And he can threaten to slap Clementine if she comments that "I wish Lee hadn't found me" in the truck, when the threat is not warranted and does nothing to absolve Clementine's guilt in playing the part of Lee's death, from one point of view.
Kenny may never mean to harm Clementine, but he's shown to be emotionally abusive on top of threats of violence for not liking what Clementine says, blaming her for situations that's beyond her control, and showing a lack of regard of her well-being whenever he's angry.
and if Clementine wasn't fortunate enough to keep him save in the blizzard or from the walkers, then what would stop Kenny from blaming her … morefor AJ's actual death, given how he's quick to blame her for Sarita's death?
The worst Kenny has or ever would do is get angry/verbally abusive to Clem which he never meant deep down, there were plenty of times he could have attacked her but didn't and i will always believe he would never harm her no matter what
Jane did that though. She saves Jaime numerous times, saves Luke, saves Rebecca and Clem from the herd, and even determinately saves Sarah. I have no doubt she'll do the same for Clementine.
Sacrificing yourself to save another's life (for example, boxed in by walkers or Kenny taking what would have been Clem's place with the missing radio) is different than sacrificing yourself proving a point when that person isn't in direct danger.
Im referring to a situation which mean a "you or me" situation, i honestly feel Jane wouldn't save Clem's life if meant she was going to die as well but i feel as though Kenny would die for her if it came down to that but it probably won't ever come down to a situation like that unless it somehow happens in season 3
Jane did that though. She saves Jaime numerous times, saves Luke, saves Rebecca and Clem from the herd, and even determinately saves Sarah. I have no doubt she'll do the same for Clementine.
Im referring to a situation which mean a "you or me" situation, i honestly feel Jane wouldn't save Clem's life if meant she was going to die… more as well but i feel as though Kenny would die for her if it came down to that but it probably won't ever come down to a situation like that unless it somehow happens in season 3
He was angry enough to leave Clementine in the herd if she mercy kills Sarita after chopped her arm off to stop the bite from spreading or chooses not to, where she could have died. Sure Mike drags Kenny away, but Kenny makes no attempt to have Clementine follow, and instead shows that "Sarita's death is on her head". If Sarita's arm was not axed off, his main focus is Sarita and makes no effort to have Clementine follow them, leaving her in the herd again.
When someone is angry, they don't think straight, we all know when Kenny gets angry he's horrible but if someone you loved had just died or you knew was going to die (in this case Sarita being bitten), then you would be very very upset too. I don't condone what he did in blaming Clem but he apologised the following episode and i know he didn't mean it and that's good enough for me because I understand. Grief makes you say or do bad things and you won't understand that unless you've experienced it.
It just seems that Kenny is the only one being blamed for leaving her, yet no one blames Mike or even Bonnie for it. Even Jane would have left her and Rebecca if they hadn't bumped into her and that's how i saw that scene like it or not. Could we not blame Clem for being unable to keep up with all of them instead? She could easily be blamed for it as well.
He can accidentally elbow Clementine in the face not long after falling into the frozen ice should she fall into it, should she try to intervene with Kenny needlessly beating Arvo rather than Kenny looking for a way to keep her and the baby warm.
A determinant choice and as you said "accidentally" happens and you could see his face afterwards how shocked he was when he did it, showing that he regretted it and to me shows he does care about her. You do realise Jane had already started to find a way to keep her warm (which i appreciated by the way) so again why it has to be "just" Kenny who i feel you implied should have been the only one to keep Clem and baby warm and yet no mention of Mike who was also not doing anything. Kenny was angry because of what happened to Luke and what could have happened to Clem, himself or anyone else which is why i feel he took it out on Arvo who did say "fuck you" to him by the way even though yes, Kenny was being horrible to him but that's beside the point.
And he can threaten to slap Clementine if she comments that "I wish Lee hadn't found me" in the truck, when the threat is not warranted and does nothing to absolve Clementine's guilt in playing the part of Lee's death, from one point of view.
Oh come on Rich really? As much as you dislike/hate Kenny, if you honestly think he would have really slapped her after that then im lost for words sorry man! Clem was basically saying Lee shouldn't have sacrificed everything to save her, Kenny's "threat" was more of a "don't say that bullshit ever again" and quite frankly I don't blame him because choosing that option is not only negative as hell but it's an insult to Christa, Omid, even determinant Ben and to Lee's memory. Point is, he would never slap her or harm her physically in any way. Kenny sees Clem as his family, like a daughter which is another way you could look at the scene, like a father saying he'd slap their son or daughter for being naughty. Nothing more than that.
Kenny may never mean to harm Clementine, but he's shown to be emotionally abusive on top of threats of violence for not liking what Clementine says, blaming her for situations that's beyond her control, and showing a lack of regard of her well-being whenever he's angry.
I agree with you on what you say here although the way i see it is when he blames Clem or other characters for something it's out of frustration of something going wrong at the time. He shouldn't do it, i know that and I don't like it but again i know he doesn't mean it deep down. If i was around someone like this i would do my best to help him or her control their anger, I wouldn't hate on them like a lot of people.
He was angry enough to leave Clementine in the herd if she mercy kills Sarita after chopped her arm off to stop the bite from spreading or c… morehooses not to, where she could have died. Sure Mike drags Kenny away, but Kenny makes no attempt to have Clementine follow, and instead shows that "Sarita's death is on her head". If Sarita's arm was not axed off, his main focus is Sarita and makes no effort to have Clementine follow them, leaving her in the herd again.
He can accidentally elbow Clementine in the face not long after falling into the frozen ice should she fall into it, should she try to intervene with Kenny needlessly beating Arvo rather than Kenny looking for a way to keep her and the baby warm.
And he can threaten to slap Clementine if she comments that "I wish Lee hadn't found me" in the truck, when the threat is not warranted and does nothing to absolve Clementine's guilt in playing the part of Lee's death, from one point of view… [view original content]
Being on an apocalypse forces you to watch the people you love die in brutal ways, to scavenge everyday for food and water, to lose all hygiene you considered important at some point, to kill other survivors in order to continue living, to live under constant alert so that people who were your neighbors don't eat you, and to deal with all the mental and emotional trauma that the former reasons cause.
I'm not saying that it gives you the right to murder a baby.
And Jane never explicitly states that Rebecca's baby should be left to die.
It just seems that Kenny is the only one being blamed for leaving her, yet no one blames Mike or even Bonnie for it. Even Jane would have left her and Rebecca if they hadn't bumped into her and that's how i saw that scene like it or not. Could we not blame Clem for being unable to keep up with all of them instead? She could easily be blamed for it as well.
Mike, Bonnie, and Jane had only just known Clementine for a couple of days at most and are merely strangers to her at best, and thus wouldn't have any personal reason to take up the responsibility to look after a child they don't know. Kenny, however, known Clementine for a long time and would have a stronger reason to want to look after her given their background. He also propositioned Clementine to join him in his search for Wellington just after meeting her again after roughly two years ago, which means that he gave himself a bigger responsibility to care for her than anyone else does.
And why should Clementine be held responsible for not catching up to Kenny who willingly leaves her in both scenarios? She's much smaller than the adults and have little strength to barge through the herd of walkers on her own, so of course she'll struggle to catch up to a group of adults running in all directions. Besides, if anyone is to blame for the disaster in the herd it's the people who volunteered to walk through the same herd, something that Clementine can decide to not take part of.
You do realise Jane had already started to find a way to keep her warm (which i appreciated by the way) so again why it has to be "just" Kenny who i feel you implied should have been the only one to keep Clem and baby warm and yet no mention of Mike who was also not doing anything.
Again, Mike only knew Clementine for less than a week and thus wouldn't have any reason to want to take responsibility of caring for her, especially when there are other people who knew her for longer and have more incentive to do so. Again, Kenny knew Clementine for much longer, but does not prioritize tending to Clementine right away after the frozen lake incident, because he felt that beating up his hostage was more important than ensuring that his little friend doesn't freeze to death.
Point is, he would never slap her or harm her physically in any way. Kenny sees Clem as his family, like a daughter which is another way you could look at the scene, like a father saying he'd slap their son or daughter for being naughty. Nothing more than that.
Give Kenny's violent tendencies, his habit of neglecting Clementine, and his inability to control his emotions, there's always that risk that Kenny will eventually lash out at Clementine at his worst moment the longer he refuses to control his emotions and violent impulses. Sure he may have merely said those words and never intended to act them out, but he wasn't helping his case by acting aggressive and stubborn towards everyone in his group throughout the episode, especially when he was shown to have beaten up his hostage and can determinately elbow Clementine in the face for trying to stop him.
If i was around someone like this i would do my best to help him or her control their anger, I wouldn't hate on them like a lot of people.
Willingly helping someone with anger issues is something not everyone can do, and I respect you for that, but at the end of the day it all comes down to whether they want to be helped or not. Also, Kenny's lack of self control is not something a child should be responsible for, even if she is the player character. It doesn't help that repeated cases of emotional outbursts and acts of violence means that there's a bigger chance that people like Kenny will keep digging themselves deeper in a hole and struggle to get themselves out without serious help. If they get to the point where they won't help themselves, they all they do is drag their friends down with them.
He was angry enough to leave Clementine in the herd if she mercy kills Sarita after chopped her arm off to stop the bite from spreading or c… morehooses not to, where she could have died. Sure Mike drags Kenny away, but Kenny makes no attempt to have Clementine follow, and instead shows that "Sarita's death is on her head". If Sarita's arm was not axed off, his main focus is Sarita and makes no effort to have Clementine follow them, leaving her in the herd again.
When someone is angry, they don't think straight, we all know when Kenny gets angry he's horrible but if someone you loved had just died or you knew was going to die (in this case Sarita being bitten), then you would be very very upset too. I don't condone what he did in blaming Clem but he apologised the following episode and i know he didn't mean it and that's good enough for me because I understand. Grief makes you say or do bad things and you won't understand that unless you've… [view original content]
Did I ever say that she liked the idea of adding a baby to the group? Because I am pretty sure that she in fact was against the idea, as you said—which doesn't mean she is going to leave it to die after its born.
I think we should end the discussion here, unless you have any other argument.
And you don't know if its warmer inside either lol. It wouldn't have been though and ive got into some horribly cold cars in snowy conditions before. Jane should have and could have found another way to make her point
Mike, Bonnie, and Jane had only just known Clementine for a couple of days at most and are merely strangers to her at best, and thus wouldn't have any personal reason to take up the responsibility to look after a child they don't know.
Rich come on dude. I really feel that that isn't a good enough reason just because they hardly know Clem and have no reason to care. The same could be said about Clem not knowing Jane long enough and why she should choose her over Kenny who shes known a lot longer and who she knows she can trust. If you saw a person on the street collapse from a heart attack or hit by a car your natural reaction is to help them. Kenny should not be the only one who is blamed in my opinion especially given the shock he'd just had but yes it was wrong to blame her for the whole Sarita thing in the spur of the moment.
And why should Clementine be held responsible for not catching up to Kenny who willingly leaves her in both scenarios?
You make it sound like he left her in cold blood which i highly disagree over when as i said, grief is a very powerful thing and you can do very bad/rash things when you don't think straight and trust me I didn't like the whole scene at all but im not going to soley blame him when other characters are just as much to blame.
Again, Kenny knew Clementine for much longer, but does not prioritize tending to Clementine right away after the frozen lake incident, because he felt that beating up his hostage was more important than ensuring that his little friend doesn't freeze to death.
So if she hadn't fallen in the lake what then? Does that not change things? I've actually not seen what the scene is like if Clem doesn't fall in the lake but if she wasn't freezing to death what would there be to do then for her? I admit that he could have still done something useful but again as i said, it's solely blaming Kenny for not doing anything when Mike regardless of "not knowing" Clem that long was also not doing anything at the time, same with Bonnie but again i agree that it didn't help things taking out his frustration on Arvo but he did what he did because you could argue it was partially Arvo's fault that Luke died. It was stupid that they all walked over the lake anyway.
Give Kenny's violent tendencies, his habit of neglecting Clementine, and his inability to control his emotions, there's always that risk that Kenny will eventually lash out at Clementine at his worst moment the longer he refuses to control his emotions and violent impulses.
Well if i was in that situation i'd take my chances because i'd still trust that person especially if i care a lot about them but i still don't think even at his worst he would lash out physically at her because of the way he is towards her most of the time especially AJ and already being a father to Duck I don't believe he'd start hitting kids. I guess it's simple though, try to help a man with his emotions, try not to upset him to make him be violent. As i said that is what i would do given the chance.
Willingly helping someone with anger issues is something not everyone can do, and I respect you for that, but at the end of the day it all comes down to whether they want to be helped or not. Also, Kenny's lack of self control is not something a child should be responsible for, even if she is the player character. It doesn't help that repeated cases of emotional outbursts and acts of violence means that there's a bigger chance that people like Kenny will keep digging themselves deeper in a hole and struggle to get themselves out without serious help. If they get to the point where they won't help themselves, they all they do is drag their friends down with them.
I see what you are saying and i like your points on the whole situation, i appreciate you replying. I just want people to understand that I don't like or agree with "everything" Kenny ever did, i know he acted like an asshole several times and there were decisions he made that i didn't always agree with but i am extremely forgiving and always trusted the guy in my playthrough and that's how my Lee and Kenny were. And im sorry but i just cannot hate the guy like most (on these forums anyway) do. He's done bad things, but so has everyone. He's adapted to a world gone to shit in a way others around him haven't. I'm not saying it's right or a good thing but it is what it is. I guess im one of these people who will always have sympathy for him the way he lost his family all at once and what that does has an everlasting effect as i've also had a different terrible experience of loss before. Maybe it is also because i have an attachment to a season 1 character who's been around since the start, it's the same for me and the tv show with Rick, Daryl and Carol, you grow to love these characters.
Well there you go anyway. Thanks for reading
It just seems that Kenny is the only one being blamed for leaving her, yet no one blames Mike or even Bonnie for it. Even Jane would have le… moreft her and Rebecca if they hadn't bumped into her and that's how i saw that scene like it or not. Could we not blame Clem for being unable to keep up with all of them instead? She could easily be blamed for it as well.
Mike, Bonnie, and Jane had only just known Clementine for a couple of days at most and are merely strangers to her at best, and thus wouldn't have any personal reason to take up the responsibility to look after a child they don't know. Kenny, however, known Clementine for a long time and would have a stronger reason to want to look after her given their background. He also propositioned Clementine to join him in his search for Wellington just after meeting her again after roughly two years ago, which means that he gave himself a bigger responsibility to care for her than anyone else… [view original content]
Actually i disagree. Jane was trying to convince Clem about Kenny but she also wanted a fight to show this because otherwise she wouldn't have staged the whole thing to get Kenny angry because she knew how much he cared about AJ and pretending he was dead was her plan for him to attack her, he was deliberately provoked. She put her knife away thinking maybe he wouldn't have attacked her but she obviously knew deep down he would and he did but again it was her fault for causing the whole scene. Im pretty sure if someone you cared about in a situation where he or she deliberately made it seem like the one they cared about had died, you would be pretty angry too. Also ive stated before that the way i see it is that it was just a plain old fight before Jane slashed him with the knife in which then it became very personal.
Anyway im not going to argue with you Sage, it's how i see it and no one is going to change my opinion same as im not going to change yours. This discussion has been done to death
Dan , can I remind you of an incident that happened during the fight?
Jane sheathed her knife. She tried to back down and not resort to violence , but Kenny attacked her anyway.
Comments
[removed]
And because she thought Clem might be in danger.
Kill me now.
If, for whatever reason, Jane wanted to get rid of A.J. I'm certain that she would shoot him in the head, not leave him to be ripped apart and chewed on by dead people.
It's not like she will do it, in the first place.
Eh...he's been known to turn on people.....
But it's irrelevant to this thread anyway.
Even though bad people love their children, for some reason I just don't see Jane sticking around for anyone but herself. Look how she put Aj in danger by leaving him in a ice cold car, all just to "prove a point."
You dont know the car was ice cold. Probably warmer inside than outside.
Jane hid AJ in the car and pretended that the baby was dead to Kenny, which was out of desperation to prove to Clementine that Kenny wasn't mentally adjusted enough to accept a baby's death in a situation where there's no shelter from the cold, and that they were heading to a location that no-one knows for sure that even exists.
Given how he immediately blames Jane for AJ's 'death' was to prove the point that had Clementine been the one to carry AJ in the blizzard, and if Clementine wasn't fortunate enough to keep him save in the blizzard or from the walkers, then what would stop Kenny from blaming her for AJ's actual death, given how he's quick to blame her for Sarita's death?
It was a stupid plan in the end, given all that Jane had to do was to simply ASK Clementine if she's agrees with Kenny's plan to go to Wellington and whether she still felt safe around him. But I cannot agree that Jane wanted the baby dead, given how easily she could have simply thrown the baby to the walkers or in the snow off-screen, and yet she chooses to safely hide him in the car in a location she know where it is.
"What are you going to do with it?" is not the same as saying ditch it.
That's a really good point! I hadn't though about that until you mentioned it.
Plus, she had made sure that car in which she hid A.J. had one of the windows down, so that he wouldn't run out of oxygen.
Yeah, Kenny flips the fuck out at Clem and is on the brink of losing it.
I took what Jane doing to test what would happen in a pressure situation. Though, i am a little bias as I didn't want to be with Kenny anyway.
Actually go back and watch Kenny's reaction to different characters death in season 1. At first he seems callous but then you see how he's really feeling like when he pulled Lee aside and was telling him how he felt about Greens son dying on the farm. Or how if you choose the right options he actually stays back at the risk of his own life to stay with Ben the guy who was partially responsible for his son's death. Kenny talks a lot of crap when he's angry but at the end of the day he tries to do what's right, and actually does feel bad about things.
The difference between Jane, and Kenny is he is willing to stay with Clementine even if it means his own death. Jane will bolt. Different situations in the game have shown this.
Yeah because people actually run out of oxygen in a car... That doesn't happen. If anything it would let in more cold, or make his cries more audible to the Walkers.
The only reason AJ survived is because of plot armor.
But didn't Jane risk death trying to convince Clementine to come with her?
Okay, that car has been sitting there for two and a half years, under constant rain, sleet and snow. Don't you think the ventilation system could get blocked by all that ice?
How many times have your friends and family been on a zombie apocalypse for over two years?
I didn't bring Kenny into this. Why are you even replying to me? LOL!
The same blizzard that Kenny forced all three, Clementine, Jane, and AJ, to endure through with little to no supplies, no sense of direction, and at the high risk of either being eaten by walkers, starve to death, or to die from the cold given how harsh the blizzard is that had also cut off the majority of their vision during the trip.
Kenny willingly gambled with everyone's lives, including the baby he supposedly cared for, all for a hunch that could have gotten everyone involved killed either by hypothermia or being devoured, especially when a defenseless baby requires the nourishment and heat that Kenny did not provide given how he was more concerned about finding Wellington right now, which he didn't even know where it was, as opposed to actually taking care of the baby's needs above his own.
She did, hence why she gave the option to go back to Howe's, which is known to have shelter and food. It wasn't the best option available, but unlike Wellington, we know that the place exists and was secure enough to provide food and shelter. Instead, Kenny immediately dismisses the idea and continues to force everyone to drive through the blizzard aimlessly. As far as he was concerned, there's no other option but to go to Wellington, and he wasn't going to listen to reason.
Again, if she didn't really care for the baby, then why keep him alive in the car? Why not actually throw AJ to the walkers and say to Kenny that she stumbled into the walkers, and they snatched him away from her? Why not throw him into a snow pile, and say that she tripped and fell, and the baby died from the impact?
Her attitude to the baby is not the problem in this case, given how she ensured that he was safe and ensured that she wasn't going to let the baby die. Her plan was mainly about Kenny, not AJ, and it was to prove to Clementine that Kenny was not mentally sound and is losing his grip on logical reasoning, hence why they're exposed to many dangers in the blizzard because of Kenny.
Again, it was a stupid plan given how Jane could just simply ASK Clementine if she felt safe around Kenny and if she really did want to go to Wellington. Jane created the 'baby's death' plan out of desperation to convince Clementine that going to Wellington at this state was suicidal, and that Kenny was determined to set them onto a suicidal route whether everyone liked it or not.
If anyone was acting selfish and stupid in the end, it was Kenny, plain and simple. Jane was desperate and also stupid, but not selfish, otherwise she would have simply not bothered to return to the group in the first place and rescue Kenny from a Russian bandit, and potentially Clementine from drowning in the lake.
I understand what you mean, but in this case it's not really possible to talk about Jane's motivations with her plan without involving Kenny.
EXACTLY! Thank you. He even said in season 2 "i know i can be a real shit sometimes" but deep down he doesn't mean it. People who hate/dislike him are so quick to paint a picture of him as an evil person but he's not. His intentions are good in the sense that he means well and wants to do what's right even though at times he is irrational, doesn't think things through/stubborn etc.
Also, say that he perhaps suffered brain damage as some people suggest, if that was the case, if people truly understood mental health then they'd understand about someone who behaves in this manner and that they are hard to control but you wouldn't hate on them for something that is not entirely their fault would you? You wouldn't abandon a relative or friend you care about leaving them in a nursing home just because they are violent or horrible when he or she doesn't mean to be would you? Maybe some heartless people would but i would not. I would try to help them the best i can, to try and help them through it if i can because it's the right thing to do.
I want people to understand that I don't like or agree with "everything" Kenny ever did, i know he acted like an asshole several times and there were decisions he made that i didn't always agree with but iam extremely forgiving and always trusted the guy in my playthrough and that's how my Lee and Kenny were. And im sorry but i just cannot hate the guy like most (on these forums anyway) do. He's done bad things, but so has everyone. He's adapted to a world gone to shit in a way others around him haven't. I'm not saying it's right or a good thing but it is what it is. I guess im one of these people who will always have sympathy for him the way he lost his family all at once and what that does has an everlasting effect as i've also had a different terrible experience of loss before. Maybe it is also because i have an attachment to a season 1 character who's been around since the start, it's the same for me and the tv show with Rick, Daryl and Carol, you grow to love these characters.
Well there you go anyway. The usual people who read this don't have to like it but there it is.
Besides determinant Lee actions, who has Kenny turned on?
And you don't know if its warmer inside either lol. It wouldn't have been though and ive got into some horribly cold cars in snowy conditions before. Jane should have and could have found another way to make her point
The worst Kenny has or ever would do is get angry/verbally abusive to Clem which he never meant deep down, there were plenty of times he could have attacked her but didn't and i will always believe he would never harm her no matter what
Sacrificing yourself to save another's life (for example, boxed in by walkers or Kenny taking what would have been Clem's place with the missing radio) is different than sacrificing yourself proving a point when that person isn't in direct danger.
He was angry enough to leave Clementine in the herd if she mercy kills Sarita after chopped her arm off to stop the bite from spreading or chooses not to, where she could have died. Sure Mike drags Kenny away, but Kenny makes no attempt to have Clementine follow, and instead shows that "Sarita's death is on her head". If Sarita's arm was not axed off, his main focus is Sarita and makes no effort to have Clementine follow them, leaving her in the herd again.
He can accidentally elbow Clementine in the face not long after falling into the frozen ice should she fall into it, should she try to intervene with Kenny needlessly beating Arvo rather than Kenny looking for a way to keep her and the baby warm.
And he can threaten to slap Clementine if she comments that "I wish Lee hadn't found me" in the truck, when the threat is not warranted and does nothing to absolve Clementine's guilt in playing the part of Lee's death, from one point of view.
Kenny may never mean to harm Clementine, but he's shown to be emotionally abusive on top of threats of violence for not liking what Clementine says, blaming her for situations that's beyond her control, and showing a lack of regard of her well-being whenever he's angry.
Jane did that though. She saves Jaime numerous times, saves Luke, saves Rebecca and Clem from the herd, and even determinately saves Sarah. I have no doubt she'll do the same for Clementine.
katjaa and sarita, probably ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
i'm sorry; i had to.
Im referring to a situation which mean a "you or me" situation, i honestly feel Jane wouldn't save Clem's life if meant she was going to die as well but i feel as though Kenny would die for her if it came down to that but it probably won't ever come down to a situation like that unless it somehow happens in season 3
Agree to disagree I suppose.
When someone is angry, they don't think straight, we all know when Kenny gets angry he's horrible but if someone you loved had just died or you knew was going to die (in this case Sarita being bitten), then you would be very very upset too. I don't condone what he did in blaming Clem but he apologised the following episode and i know he didn't mean it and that's good enough for me because I understand. Grief makes you say or do bad things and you won't understand that unless you've experienced it.
It just seems that Kenny is the only one being blamed for leaving her, yet no one blames Mike or even Bonnie for it. Even Jane would have left her and Rebecca if they hadn't bumped into her and that's how i saw that scene like it or not. Could we not blame Clem for being unable to keep up with all of them instead? She could easily be blamed for it as well.
A determinant choice and as you said "accidentally" happens and you could see his face afterwards how shocked he was when he did it, showing that he regretted it and to me shows he does care about her. You do realise Jane had already started to find a way to keep her warm (which i appreciated by the way) so again why it has to be "just" Kenny who i feel you implied should have been the only one to keep Clem and baby warm and yet no mention of Mike who was also not doing anything. Kenny was angry because of what happened to Luke and what could have happened to Clem, himself or anyone else which is why i feel he took it out on Arvo who did say "fuck you" to him by the way even though yes, Kenny was being horrible to him but that's beside the point.
Oh come on Rich really? As much as you dislike/hate Kenny, if you honestly think he would have really slapped her after that then im lost for words sorry man! Clem was basically saying Lee shouldn't have sacrificed everything to save her, Kenny's "threat" was more of a "don't say that bullshit ever again" and quite frankly I don't blame him because choosing that option is not only negative as hell but it's an insult to Christa, Omid, even determinant Ben and to Lee's memory. Point is, he would never slap her or harm her physically in any way. Kenny sees Clem as his family, like a daughter which is another way you could look at the scene, like a father saying he'd slap their son or daughter for being naughty. Nothing more than that.
I agree with you on what you say here although the way i see it is when he blames Clem or other characters for something it's out of frustration of something going wrong at the time. He shouldn't do it, i know that and I don't like it but again i know he doesn't mean it deep down. If i was around someone like this i would do my best to help him or her control their anger, I wouldn't hate on them like a lot of people.
That's a very simplistic view on the issue.
Being on an apocalypse forces you to watch the people you love die in brutal ways, to scavenge everyday for food and water, to lose all hygiene you considered important at some point, to kill other survivors in order to continue living, to live under constant alert so that people who were your neighbors don't eat you, and to deal with all the mental and emotional trauma that the former reasons cause.
I'm not saying that it gives you the right to murder a baby.
And Jane never explicitly states that Rebecca's baby should be left to die.
Mike, Bonnie, and Jane had only just known Clementine for a couple of days at most and are merely strangers to her at best, and thus wouldn't have any personal reason to take up the responsibility to look after a child they don't know. Kenny, however, known Clementine for a long time and would have a stronger reason to want to look after her given their background. He also propositioned Clementine to join him in his search for Wellington just after meeting her again after roughly two years ago, which means that he gave himself a bigger responsibility to care for her than anyone else does.
And why should Clementine be held responsible for not catching up to Kenny who willingly leaves her in both scenarios? She's much smaller than the adults and have little strength to barge through the herd of walkers on her own, so of course she'll struggle to catch up to a group of adults running in all directions. Besides, if anyone is to blame for the disaster in the herd it's the people who volunteered to walk through the same herd, something that Clementine can decide to not take part of.
Again, Mike only knew Clementine for less than a week and thus wouldn't have any reason to want to take responsibility of caring for her, especially when there are other people who knew her for longer and have more incentive to do so. Again, Kenny knew Clementine for much longer, but does not prioritize tending to Clementine right away after the frozen lake incident, because he felt that beating up his hostage was more important than ensuring that his little friend doesn't freeze to death.
Give Kenny's violent tendencies, his habit of neglecting Clementine, and his inability to control his emotions, there's always that risk that Kenny will eventually lash out at Clementine at his worst moment the longer he refuses to control his emotions and violent impulses. Sure he may have merely said those words and never intended to act them out, but he wasn't helping his case by acting aggressive and stubborn towards everyone in his group throughout the episode, especially when he was shown to have beaten up his hostage and can determinately elbow Clementine in the face for trying to stop him.
Willingly helping someone with anger issues is something not everyone can do, and I respect you for that, but at the end of the day it all comes down to whether they want to be helped or not. Also, Kenny's lack of self control is not something a child should be responsible for, even if she is the player character. It doesn't help that repeated cases of emotional outbursts and acts of violence means that there's a bigger chance that people like Kenny will keep digging themselves deeper in a hole and struggle to get themselves out without serious help. If they get to the point where they won't help themselves, they all they do is drag their friends down with them.
Did I ever say that she liked the idea of adding a baby to the group? Because I am pretty sure that she in fact was against the idea, as you said—which doesn't mean she is going to leave it to die after its born.
I think we should end the discussion here, unless you have any other argument.
Clementine in episode 4? Lilly when he tries to leave her in the Save Lot?
Ash, you savage.
Dan , can I remind you of an incident that happened during the fight?
Jane sheathed her knife. She tried to back down and not resort to violence , but Kenny attacked her anyway.
Rich come on dude. I really feel that that isn't a good enough reason just because they hardly know Clem and have no reason to care. The same could be said about Clem not knowing Jane long enough and why she should choose her over Kenny who shes known a lot longer and who she knows she can trust. If you saw a person on the street collapse from a heart attack or hit by a car your natural reaction is to help them. Kenny should not be the only one who is blamed in my opinion especially given the shock he'd just had but yes it was wrong to blame her for the whole Sarita thing in the spur of the moment.
You make it sound like he left her in cold blood which i highly disagree over when as i said, grief is a very powerful thing and you can do very bad/rash things when you don't think straight and trust me I didn't like the whole scene at all but im not going to soley blame him when other characters are just as much to blame.
So if she hadn't fallen in the lake what then? Does that not change things? I've actually not seen what the scene is like if Clem doesn't fall in the lake but if she wasn't freezing to death what would there be to do then for her? I admit that he could have still done something useful but again as i said, it's solely blaming Kenny for not doing anything when Mike regardless of "not knowing" Clem that long was also not doing anything at the time, same with Bonnie but again i agree that it didn't help things taking out his frustration on Arvo but he did what he did because you could argue it was partially Arvo's fault that Luke died. It was stupid that they all walked over the lake anyway.
Well if i was in that situation i'd take my chances because i'd still trust that person especially if i care a lot about them but i still don't think even at his worst he would lash out physically at her because of the way he is towards her most of the time especially AJ and already being a father to Duck I don't believe he'd start hitting kids. I guess it's simple though, try to help a man with his emotions, try not to upset him to make him be violent. As i said that is what i would do given the chance.
I see what you are saying and i like your points on the whole situation, i appreciate you replying. I just want people to understand that I don't like or agree with "everything" Kenny ever did, i know he acted like an asshole several times and there were decisions he made that i didn't always agree with but i am extremely forgiving and always trusted the guy in my playthrough and that's how my Lee and Kenny were. And im sorry but i just cannot hate the guy like most (on these forums anyway) do. He's done bad things, but so has everyone. He's adapted to a world gone to shit in a way others around him haven't. I'm not saying it's right or a good thing but it is what it is. I guess im one of these people who will always have sympathy for him the way he lost his family all at once and what that does has an everlasting effect as i've also had a different terrible experience of loss before. Maybe it is also because i have an attachment to a season 1 character who's been around since the start, it's the same for me and the tv show with Rick, Daryl and Carol, you grow to love these characters.
Well there you go anyway. Thanks for reading
Actually i disagree. Jane was trying to convince Clem about Kenny but she also wanted a fight to show this because otherwise she wouldn't have staged the whole thing to get Kenny angry because she knew how much he cared about AJ and pretending he was dead was her plan for him to attack her, he was deliberately provoked. She put her knife away thinking maybe he wouldn't have attacked her but she obviously knew deep down he would and he did but again it was her fault for causing the whole scene. Im pretty sure if someone you cared about in a situation where he or she deliberately made it seem like the one they cared about had died, you would be pretty angry too. Also ive stated before that the way i see it is that it was just a plain old fight before Jane slashed him with the knife in which then it became very personal.
Anyway im not going to argue with you Sage, it's how i see it and no one is going to change my opinion same as im not going to change yours. This discussion has been done to death