In Bonnie's Defense
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Banned
Am I the only one who doesn't understand players' irrational hatred of this character??
First: accusing her of seducing Leland. If you pay attention, Leland is the initiator and trying to manipulate the feelings of a younger woman in his debt. As the player you have the choice to have Bonnie ignore him.
Blaming her for Dee's death: Dee encourages Leland to leave her behind even though she's shot and they're being chased per Dee's fault for stealing the bag. Bonnie did not know who was in the cornfield. She probably thought Dee and Leland bounced without her. If she doesn't attack, Dee whacks her in the head with the flashlight. Therefore.....self-defense.
Lying to Leland: again, this is determined by your choice.
Scouting for Carver: Let's examine the timeline. We can pretty much figure from details in 400 days, like the decomposition state of Doug/Carley's body on the roadside in Russell's story, that 400 days is set directly after/during season 1. Bonnie joins Carver's camp. Fast-forward 2 years (Clementine is eleven is season 2) and Bonnie is STILL at Carver's camp. She has assimilated to the community, formed attachments (hinted romantic/sexual encounter or relationship with Luke in the past), and we can assume has some authority. Carver hasn't released his full-on crazy yet and the camp has the obvious benefits of walls, shelter, and food. Also she partly rectifies her misjudgment of Carver by later helping the group escape.
Getting Luke killed: well, if Luke hadn't gone and got himself shot in the leg for no reason....Bonnie panicked and there wasn't really time for an analysis of the situation. Logical thinking went out the window. This would be a NORMAL reaction. I doubt Luke would have gotten out any other way. How exactly do you pull yourself out of water with nothing to grip but slick ice and one of your legs only partly mobile? Had the ice not broke under Bonnie or Clementine, he could have used the hand.
Blaming Clementine for Luke's death (determinant): She carries a torch for Luke. Luke dies in a tragic accident. Again, a normal reaction is to look for someone to assign blame to. Given time, she probably would have come to the realisation her actions weren't in Luke's best interest and blamed herself and apologised to Clem, like Kenny did following Sarita's death. Why does Kenny get a free pass but not Bonnie?? Especially when Kenny has a history of being volatile, uncompromising, and a bully.
....which brings me to the last bit of Bonnie hate
Taking off with Mike, Arvo, and the supplies: ok this one I kind of get. It was a b*tch move to leave Clementine and the baby. Clementine and even Jane should have been included in that discussion, especially since Jane was butting heads with Kenny and couldn't wait to split either. The group could have overruled Kenny. My idea is that Bonnie and Mike knew that Kenny would never consent to hand over the truck or the baby without a fight. Clementine's joining them or keeping mum about their plan to take the truck was iffy, given her history with Kenny, so they excluded her. Trying to sneak the baby out could have proved problematic. But they had to take Arvo. Once Kenny woke up and saw the truck and supplies were gone, he would want to take out his frustrations. Who better than his favourite punching bag, Arvo? Bottomline: I like Kenny and still kind of do, and while I sympathise with him, we all know he was going off the deep end. Jane had the right of it...kind of...but that's a different story.
Comments
The Bonnie does seem to come from nowhere. Personally I love Bonnie.
P.S In my playthrough Bonnie did have feelings for Leland.
Nah, fuck her
It doesn't matter if Luke gets shot or not, she was still stupid enough to approach Luke. Also, Luke specifically told Clementine to cover him because he knows that the ice would crack but Bonnie didn't listen. That's a reason to hate her for her stupidity.
Her blame was blind and ridiculous. I don't remember her apologizing. You mean to tell me she has a good reason for blaming Clementine even though this was her fault? What makes me sick is how she just tells Clementine that she can't do anything right despite that Clementine was forced to do things she is unable to do. There are reasons to hate Bonnie.
She betrayed every group she had been with, she stood idly by when Walter who offered her food was executed, in the end she steals all the supplies from the group leaving the baby A.J and Clementine to die of starvation.
Didn't like her in 400days, didn't like her in S2.
Is it even possible to debunk not liking someone?
That dudes wife in 400 days was an insecure, paranoid nutcase. I wouldn't blame Bonnie too much for any events in that episode.
Being part of Carver's gang was questionable yeah but she did eventually betray him so she could leave with the group in fairness.
Being angry at Clementine for Luke's death - heat of the moment stuff and pretty forgivable for me. She was clearly upset about his death and needed someone to blame.
Now the last incident is where a lot of players had problems with her I think. She was willing to steal all the supplies and leave a baby to possibly starve to death. It's hard to justify that in terms of morals and what not. Still an entertaining enough character though all things considered. Not great, not really terrible either.
"haters" That word makes me want to vomit blood
I agree. People's hatred of this character is going a little too far.
Honestly, I have nothing against Bonnie or Mike for that matter.
I admit her choice of abandoning Clem and AJ was a poor one, I realize that in desperation, with unstable people and having limited options, what choice can a person do that doesn't involve the fore fit of their life?
YOURE A HATER OF THE WORD HATER THAT PEOPLE USE TO HATE THINGS YOU HATER
I can't really hate Bonnie, nor Mike, for the attempted theft in Episode 5, mainly due to how the whole scenario was set up.
I felt that the whole event was made to demonize those who opposed the plan to go to Wellington with no sense of direction, limited supplies for everyone including the baby, lack of compatibility and trust with the team, risk facing an oncoming snowstorm with no real shelter from the low temperature, and the idea of a fair vote being tossed aside that would also involve gambling the lives of everyone in the team without their consent. Because Bonnie and Mike opposed the plan, they were portrayed as in the wrong to go against the idea to reach a safe haven no one was even sure that existed, and thus why they were written to 'betray' the group by stealing from them as they slept and inspire hatred from the audience, and thus justify the plan to go to Wellington even more as the audience watch Arvo shoot Clementine and the 'traitors' flee for their lives.
Suppose if Bonnie and Mike begrudgingly went along with the plan, Kenny's endings showed that Wellington was indeed full up and had only allowed for Clementine and the baby to stay, which would mean that Jane, Mike, and Bonnie had journeyed all this way and had risked their lives to Wellington for absolutely nothing, they weren't getting in to the safe haven and they would have to turn back.
If I was meant to hate Bonnie and Mike for their 'betrayal', it didn't work. In fact, I wanted to go with Mike and Bonnie at the time, though I would have liked to tell them to drop what they were doing and just explain to Kenny that we're splitting up.
People can dislike a character if they want to. I'm completely fine with it, coming from someone who does likes her.
UHHH YOU'RE A HATER OF MY COMMENT ABOUT ME BEING A HATER ABOUT THE WORD HATER BECAUSE YOU'RE A HATER OF ME BEING A HATER OF THE HATER WORD HATER
I saw Bonnie as just someone doing what it takes to survive in the zombie apocalypse especially in 400 Days so I really didn't have any problems with her til the end of season 2 when she and Mike and the soon to be dead Arvo tried to steal all the supplies and abandon the group. For that reason alone she's climbed towards the top of my shit-list.
Was she still just trying to survive? absolutely! but, she assisted in stealing all of our supplies including what was needed for a baby and sided with the one that shot Clem. In the world of a zombie apocalypse, that is just as bad as trying to purposly kill them. If given the opportunity, I will bury Arvo, Bonnie and Mike together in a shallow grave.
Bonnie offered a cigarette to Clementine, after that she could go to hell for all I cared. That said, I did truly understand and empathize with her story the whole way through. TT tricked us/plot twist with Dee coming into the picture after our personal time with Leland. How could we have known? Still, it felt like even she didn't know what she wanted and that proved dangerous.
You made some good points, when talking about the events in 400 Days. Leland was coming onto Bonnie, which made him a religious hypocrite - given that the good book says "Thou Shalt NOT commit adultery."
Now I'm not saying it's wrong to check out other women if you're a married guy, nor am I saying it's wrong or not understandable to be attracted to another woman other than your wife. But loyalty should be toward your wife. "Read the menu, but eat at home."
And as for the rest of it, I believe that Bonnie is a good-hearted character, who truly does want to do right by the people, but who often times lacks common sense.
if Clementine and Bonnie are on good terms after Luke dies, then when Clementine gets shot by "Euro trash" Arvo, instead of just running off and leaving are like Mike's suggests doing, Bonnie will actually kneel beside Clementine and apologize profusely for what happened, before getting scared off by an understandably enraged Kenny - the man who's been looking after Clementine since they first reunited.
Bonnie also sounds like a person who has the very bad tendency to procrastinate, like a lot of us do. Bonnie stated that she wanted to follow Luke and the others when they escaped from Carver's, but just didn't.
And as far as being taken in by Carver, well Carver was very manipulative, and a person who is vulnerable emotionally will respond to such behavior real quickly, and given her history of drug abuse, she was in a very emotionally vulnerable place.
People who abuse drugs or alcohol are usually in a very emotionally valuable place. It just comes with the territory!
And people who are manipulators will often target those who are emotionally vulnerable, such as people with low self-esteem, or people who are perhaps not the most intelligent.
I personally don't understand all of the hatred towards Bonnie's character, however given that she betrayed the rest of the group along with Mike, I can certainly understand that portion of it at least.
And the fact that she ran off and left a bleeding child in the snow, just so she could save her own skin, tell you a lot about her loyalty. She might not be the type of character that wants to harm others, and she might even care about others, but when push comes to shove, she will choose herself over others - like most people.
And with that said, and I know that this is not exactly relevant to the discussion, but this is why I like Kenny so much, because even when his own hide is at risk, he will still try to do the right thing and protect the people that he cares about, instead of just trying to save himself. That's a rare quality!
I know that there are many people who think that Kenny is a huge dick, but in the long run if a person sticks with you, if they show you that type of loyalty, that's really all that matters.
In all fairness, if everything you've ever known were to all of a sudden be wiped out, and you were now in a do - or - die situation, do you think you could become a little unhinged?
Everyone's response to stress and catastrophe differently. There is no set rule for how people are supposed to handle it!
Plus think about if your wife or girlfriend was all of a sudden giving attention to another man, possibly a younger man. Wouldn't you to be jealous?
I'm not saying that Dee was completely right. Especially not when it comes to stealing from fellow survivors. But her attitude towards Bonnie is certainly understandable.
To get that level of insight, you just need to use empathy - to put yourself in the other person's shoes.
What an outstanding elaboration!
Fine then
Bonnie was okay for me until the lake scene, I didnt really mind her being with carver because that was her group. Even when she tries to save luke I was willing to let go this moment where her brain stopped working. However I couldn't take this junkie, betrayer giving me shit for not going towards luke and breaking the ice, who does she think she is?
Hopefully her and arvo ran into a group of starving walkers once she ran away after telling mike to leave me for dead. All the chances i gave her and she just throws it in my face
I agree. All of her actions are justifiable except this precise one. Of course she was grieving, but that doesn't mean she has the right to blame Clementine for Luke's death, especially since the players who ended in that route were the ones who tried to save Luke by killing the walkers about to reach him. It's a shame that those who liked Bonnie until then ended up being told off and abandoned to die.
Daddy
Sorry I'm still trying to get around how her wrinkles vanished... plus she betrayed Carver, that I will never forgive!
I like to imagine from your title that you're trying to prove that Bonnie haters don't exist and its some kind of conspiracy set up by the government.
The reason why I hate her is because of her constant reliance on Clem and practically treating her like an adult, demanding so much of her all the time, but in the end when she blamed Luke's death on her, she suddenly paints Clem like this spoiled brat who always lets others do her bidding. What? Utter BS! Bonnie behaved like such a bitch that moment when she had a cigarette and I went talking to her to see how she's doing. It's a different experience depending on your choice wether to cover Luke by shooting at the walkers or to crawl over to Luke on the ice (OMG Bonnie, how even dare you send a child into her potential death!?!? Another of her insane demands.) Bonnie is way worse to Clem if she did the SANE thing and not crawled to pull an adult man out of the breaking ice hole.
I don't blame Bonnie for what happened in 400 days. Leland had a wife and was being unfaithful. It takes 2 to tango though and Bonnie is at fault, but i blame Leland for it as he should never of done that.
The only things i blame her for are Getting Luke killed and betraying the group at the lodge.
Luke said the ice would break, and Bonnie didn't listen to him. Im not saying Luke would've survived, but had she not went to him, it wouldn't of broken.
Her betraying the group at the lodge was a dick move. She lies about being with a family and needs food, they treat her with respect and give her supplies only for her to double cross them and have Carver take over and kill Walter and Alvin(if you do not surrender). Now she says after she didn't know and what's to say sorry? As Kenny said to Clementine, "you think you can say sorry and it'll be ok?". She can sorry as much as she wants but Walter and Alvin still got killed because her lies.
And Leaving with Mike and Arvo, She says how much she wants to make it up to everyone, but leaves with Mike and the kid who caused the firefight and shoots Clementine? It makes no sense the writing on that part.
Omgosh why do ppl bring up her drug use? If it's to illustrate she has poor decision making skills and a weak will at times, I get that, but as far as we know her time using was before/During the onset of the outbreak. It's not fair to judge someone based on who they used to be.
She doesn't apologise (unless you choose to go to Luke which causes her to be more sympathetic toward you when Arvo shoots Clementine). What I'm saying is she probably would have eventually. Kenny at first blamed Clem for getting Sarita killed and said something similar to what Bonnie says. Yes, she was stupid to approach Luke. I'm saying it was panicked thinking and how anyone might have reacted is all.
I agree. I think Dee was justified in feeling threatened. Did anyone wonder whether she knew it was Bonnie crouched behind the tractor though? Bc at one point Leland says "did you find her? (Bonnie)" maybe Dee knew who it was and decided to elimate the threat. A thought, though she seemed nice to Bonnie overall.
Good point. I wish it had happened that way. That's why I said they should have talked to Jane and Clem and all snuck away or took their chances and told Kenny how it was gonna be..Arvo is a twit though for shooting Clementine after she gives up the gun.
Intelligent observations! I agree 100% and that's mostly what my post was about. I enjoy the character, but I'm nit saying she did nothing wrong of didn't exercise poor judgement, only that people's hatred doesn't make as much sense if ur looking at it from a psychological point of view. That's why the games are so great: relatable, fallible characters. I don't hate Kenny or Jane bc I understand how they got to the point they did.
Do you like Carver?? To each their own I guess.
Lol.
They ALL rely on Clem too much. Lol I actually made Bonnie reach through to try to open the door at the museum in my play through. Clementine: "why do I always have to be the one to put myself in danger because I'm little?" poor Bonnie got hit in the face and almost got bit. Lol
I don't have much sympathy for his wife to be honest. Maybe it depends on the player, but I told Bonnie to make it clear to the guy and his wife that there was nothing going on. If my wife was merely friendly with some old guy then i'd like to think i'd be ok with it. If I did think there was a chance that something going on then I wouldn't start an argument when we are on the road and walkers were about.
Of course she'll apologize if Clementine listens to her but won't give a shit if she doesn't when Clementine listens to Luke. She was blind of her "love" for Luke and that's what caused his death, not Clementine. That's why I can't stand an idiot like her.
Why does Kenny have to be in this? His situation is very different compared to Bonnie's.
Actually, I liked Carver in one manner.. He got a group together and started trying to build a safe community and He spoke the truth, told it like it is.
Where Carver went wrong was in his Ego.. He risked his own life and that of some of his people to travel out into the world to capture people just to get a baby that no one was certain who the father was.. That was stupid. Looked what happened to him because of all that.
If he would have just stayed at Howes and focused on his group and community and didnt try to "capture" people and force them to contribute, he could very well still be alive. His philosophy was right on though about needing to be strong and eliminate the weak as hey are a burden on resources and security (like Sarah).
No more coddling, no worrying about feelings, right or wrong or morals. Live or die.
Maybe it's just me, but I can't really wrap my head around this mindset. It just seems pointless to me. When you let the world drag you down to that level where you're more or less running on instinct and the singular will/goal to survive, then what is the point of going on? Why do you even bother? At that point, you're pretty much just sitting around waiting for the day you die. At that point, I don't know if you could really describe yourself as being 'alive'. You're biologically alive, sure, but just about every other part of you is dead. At that point, the only thing that is really separating you from the zombies is strictly biological; blood in your heart, blood in your brain. But otherwise? You're both empty husks of your former selves, being driven by a singular purpose, marching forward, watching everything and everyone around you drop dead, just waiting for the day the same happens to you. Yeah, you're alive, but is it worth it? Is that really how you want to live the rest of your life, for whatever time you have left? The way I see it, at that point, death would be a mercy; if someone came along and killed you, they would be doing you a favor.
But that's what I love about TWD at the end of the day; the dichotomy between the concept of surviving and living. Despite common belief, surviving and living are not one in the same; they're two different things. Moreover, they're a choice. In the world of TWD, you have to become a monster to survive, that much is for certain. But you get to choose just how much of one you become. And if you go too far, eventually you hit the point of no return. You can become a monster, but still hold on to a semblance of your former self, one that can potentially be rekindled, that can come back from the brink. Or you can go the full nine yards and leave the old 'you' behind entirely, electing to become something different, and not necessarily for the better. And if the world ever rebuilt itself, well, you'd be the odd man out. You wouldn't be able to reintegrate, to return to normal, because you decided to get rid of that part of you. And that's when the question arises again; what was the point? You decided to become what you are in the name of survival, but now that that goal has been accomplished, you have nothing to go back to. It doesn't have long-term benefits, just day-to-day ones.
Of course, that's just how I personally feel. Even though I don't really agree with that mindset like I said, I still find it interesting to think about.
And that's the end of the discussion, this is why people hate Bonnie. Hating her for the other reasons don't make sense.
Wait, wait, wait.
you lost me
You're using the term debunked incorrectly. You would usually use the term if you were trying to disprove a theory or some kind of statement. Saying you're debunking someone's opinion doesn't make a lot of sense. I think a better title would be "Bonnie Defense Thread" or something along those lines