The elephant in the room: It's all ***'s fault!
Can we all agree that all of the crap that happens in this season was ENTIRELY Sam's fault? I mean yes, Randall was a vindictive, antagonistic asshole, but Norma only did what what she did b/c Sam screwed her and all the families in her community over. I don't care if Sam's family was desperate for food. If they really needed help that badly, they should've just asked. We saw zero evidence that they tried to and Norma just refused. Sam really had no right to steal from them. And I don't believe her claims that Norma was like a female version of The Governor from the comics in that she was mistreating her citizens. AGAIN, we saw no evidence of that. I have every reason to believe Sam lied to Michonne about that just so she could escape.
Speaking of which, I'm shocked Michonne NEVER once confronted her about ANY of this at ANY point or Sam even realizing that she's responsible. Again, if Sam did pull any of the dumb decisions she made in this miniseries, her brother and father would still be alive and everything would've been fine. Dumb kid.
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Norma was very true to her word. I feel bad about screwing her over. But her brother's an asshole, and shouldn't have charged me.
Exactly. Just because Randall was unstable doesn't mean Norma was as well. Sam's a moron.
Though, TBH, why didn't Norma tell him to stop after he charged Michonne?
Because it's The Walking Dead. It can't be that easy.. lol
I pretty much agree with you, one could argue that Sam is responsible for every death in the story, as her actions is what lead to the chain of events that lead to many, many people being killed, including her brother and father, and potentially herself.
I'm surprised myself that we never get the option to call Sam out on how everything that has happened to Michonne and Pete's group was her fault, and we also never get the option to just leave once we have what's left of our group and leave Norma to deal with Sam.
Unlike Ben, Sam never seems to acknowledge how much blood she has on her hand, and given how Michonne never brings it up, I'm willing to bet that the writers wanted to prompt the players to sympathize and side with Sam against Norma and the people from Monroe, while hoping that they would overlook the consequences of her actions.
She is responsible and I wish there had been a conversation about this. The "Learn from this" at the end if the best we are going to get.
Still though shes not entirely to blame for all the stuff that happened, Norma and her group accelerated events.
That's what I wanted to say to her when she said Randall started all this crap.
I'm too nice of a guy to fully put all the blame on Sam here
I'm not going to deny she played a role in it, but I just don't think it's fair to blame every single thing that happened on her
She made a short-sighted choice to steal from them, but christ, I wouldn't expect that taking a bag of supplies would manage to snowball into an entire community getting burned down, and a three-way miniature war that results in casualties on all three sides. Everything that happened was like Murphy's law in full effect; every single bad thing that could happen as a result of her initial actions happened, and it grew exponentially from an indie studio shit show into an F5 shit tornado with winds going south at over 200 mph. I think it's similar to Ben, where one bad action made from what is arguably a good place with mostly good intentions turned into something nobody would have expected. I'm not gonna fully defend the choice to steal, but hey, when people get desperate, they do stupid shit. And if an opportunity presents itself to you, most people will jump on it, even if the short-term benefits of it might wind up up causing long-term damage. It's a sad folly of human nature, as far as I'm concerned.
And another thing, she actually can fess up to making mistakes and acknowledging her mistakes. She can acknowledge that stealing from Norma was a bad idea and that she shouldn't have pushed her, and she can say she wouldn't blame you if you decided to leave her behind, saying that this isn't Michonne's mess. A lot of these scenes are more subtle though, and require you picking the right dialogue options to get, I'll admit that much. And furthermore, given that her brother and father just died, I hate to say it, but I don't think she's going to be giving much of a shit about other people or her prior mistakes. She's in the middle of the grieving process. And further furthermore, I think calling someone out that's still in the process of trying to come to terms with the deaths of two family members isn't going to help anything. Pouring gasoline on a fire isn't gonna put it out. And honestly, sitting there and blaming someone just isn't a productive use of your time if you ask me. You could sit there making her feel like an absolute piece of shit and possibly exacerbate whatever happens next by putting her in an even worse state of mind, or you can cut the shit and try to salvage what you can out of an already bad situation, even if it means continuing to cooperate with someone you'd rather not. At least that's the way I'm looking at things.
As for why you don't get the choice to leave her behind, well, that probably plays into the fact that you don't get a chance to even make that decision. Michonne and Pete want their crew back, and shit hits the fan smack-dab in the middle of the trade, forcing you to fight back, then forcing you to survive as Norma's people surround the whole place and try to burn it down. There's no time to say "okay bye have fun cleaning up your mess guys" when you're about 5 minutes away from dying horribly in a fire. And then you have Pete there, and it's not like he's going to leave people behind. If you want to blame anyone for being stuck with the Fairbanks after the fact, well, blame it on Pete's altruism. And honestly, I'd be on his side with that. I just can't justify leaving people behind and throwing them to the wolves for making mistakes, even if those mistakes caused a lot of death and destruction. As long as the intentions weren't openly malicious, I can forgive it.
I'm probably going to be in a minority for feeling this way about things, and if that's the case, then it is what it is. Also, I'd like to apologize in advance if anything in this post came off as overly aggressive, because that wasn't my intent going into this. I haven't always been the best at explaining how I feel about things.
So, TL;DR: I'm just too much of a nice guy to be willing to pin all the blame on Sam, nor to justify calling her out and lambasting her over it, or to justify up and leaving her and her family after all is said and done. None of that stuff sits right with me, nor does it all feel like the truth. I agree that she isn't fully innocent here, but I feel there's more people and situations to blame than just Sam. And I feel that there's an adequate amount of remorse she has over this stuff, even if she isn't as upfront about it as someone like Ben was. Or maybe I'm just trying to rationalize something I shouldn't be. I dunno.
See kids, stealing is bad.
When you think about it, yes. A lot of lives have be lost indirectly by her.
Well, kind of, but I think that's oversimple.
I mean, we can play 'if this didn't happen, then x wouldn't have died' all day. If Randall hadn't massacred the mobjack none of the deaths would have happened either. Surely that's worse than Sam stealing?
Lukas is Minecraft, I think you mean Luke.
Lol
I don't blame Sam at all. Norma's group made a huge deal out of this, including imprisoning two innocent people. This seemed like another dictatorship, a group who wouldn't let people go if they wanted to. And Norma's brother was a psycho, so leaving him in charge for ANYTHING is stupid and dangerous. Norma should've known better if she truly cared. I also think that it was Randall's group who savagely killed the people on the boat. And I think Norma wouldn't give a damn. Not to mention she reminds me a lot of the cannibal mom from season 1. Shudder...
Theres no real relation between him doing that and the events of the game though. Him doing that doesnt cause sam to steal or anything (also still no proof he did that by the way, still just as much evidence he killed some scavengers that took the place over)
Sam stealing (and then repeatedly lying) starts off a chain of events.
I'd also be more understanding if she hadnt already stolen from them and been given a warning
Do you remember Shel's story in 400 days where you were given a choice to kill Roberto, who stole from your group, or not? If you let him go, he comes back and kills Boyd and if you don't, Boyd is still alive. That applies here with Norma. Yeah, she could have avoided all of this but letting the two seemingly innocent people go and just take Sam and her brother but who's to say that they won't come back like Sam did and steal? Norma let Sam go before, Sam confirms this in episode 2, but she couldn't leave the duffel bag alone and indirectly sets off a chain of events that killed a lot of people.
My point is Norma tried to be reasonable and it's hard to keep a whole community safe when you have thieves, insubordinate team members (ex. Gabby & Zachary) and a hot-headed brother that acts on impulse, making matters worse.
Ah, I just assumed since we were in TWD section we were just referring to TWD characters.
This kind of reminds me of that thread that claimed Lee died because of Omid.
I mean, if Pete never was on that boat... then it would have never happened! God damnit Pete, you worthless idiot! Look at all the trouble you caused!
Sure there is, if he hadn't done that they would have never met, Michonne wouldn't have ended up in Monroe, etc.
Also its like 20 minutes of the first episode, it really isn't unrelated to the game. It's the setup for the whole conflict.
Still, why WAS Randall acting the way he was, anyway?
The only reason we went there is because Sam radios for help. The only reason Sam is there is because she stole the bag. The only reason Randall is there is that Sam stole the bag. No one would have been on the barge otherwise, or at the very least everyone but michonne and Pete would not be there
The massacre (whoever caused it) didn't lead to anything in the game
The answer is simple: he's a crazy motherfucker.
Yeah Pete, you stupid piece of sh-woah woah hold up one second
what
It's probably the biggest stretch ever. Where it's like "If Omid didn't fuck up his leg. Then Blank wouldn't happen" or whatever bullshit.
And it's still Lee's fault even though he can push him?
To be fair. Sam does actually call herself out on it in Ep. 2. That one scene where she explains that she shouldn't have pushed her.
In-fact. most of her character is her realizing that she fucked up. At least with most of Ep. 2
"Omid should've landed less shitty then."
Yes, everything that happened was virtually Sam's fault. They didn't even need the supplies really. Norma was entirely reasonable in how she acted, and actually very kind after everything was said and done. Was it ever explained what happened on the ferry though? Who were those people that had been executed? I can't remember it being explained
I knew it was her fault from the beginning, and her attitude made it hard for me to like her.
Yeah. I found it really hard to like her.
Yeah, the last episode showed that what ever Norma's faults, she was willing to negotiate.
One of the biggest problems with the Michonne story is that Sam practically is responsible for the entire series of events. Her bullshit pulls you into a situation that leads to many people's deaths and her mind set at the time, however understandable, makes her an annoying character who is hard to like. The whole thing becomes a bit frustrating, and her character, though I feel for her, is difficult to come around to. By the end, I liked her, or at least was willing to protect her and her family who were otherwise innocent, but yeah, I think it's a rather serious flaw in the story telling.
Anybody else notice the duffel bag Sam informed us/stashed away inside the house full of weapons?
Dang Sam, you got problems.
Honestly, was there any doubt that she was the one that took the bags? I thought it was pretty clear since episode 1 that she was the one that stole them. The only thing I was wondering throughout the episode is if she had a reason for doing it; IE Norma and Randall definitely being the ones responsible slaughtering the folks on the ferry.
I'm talking strictly hypothetically here, but if they were definitely responsible for the Mobjack, I wouldn't feel too bad about stealing from someone that likes gunning down entire groups of people including children. I mean, when you think about it, maybe taking weapons away from people like that would be a good thing; makes it harder for them to do the same to someone else.
It's never confirmed that he killed those people for no reason.
Sure a dying man said that he killed the whole crew on the ferry. But if we know Randall we also know he lied to get into people's heads. Just like an FBI agent would if they needed to bide time until their crew came to rescue them. Randall is a great actor but he's far from a vindictive murderer.
Why should I trust what Sam says more than what Norma said? Norma seems way more trustworthy than Sam. Yeah the plot makes her get mad at us even when we tell the truth, but she still has a pretty good reason. I mean did Sam not have one of her bags in episode 3 at her frickin house!!!!
Norma and Randall are justified. The only reason we did what we did is because it's not ok to kill kids. Or else Sam should've been beheaded and Sams family shoulda came to work for Norma. It sounds like a prison but it's an actual community compared to where John had his kids.
Are we saying that they killed them in Malice like Sam said?
Or they did what Norma said and retaliated?
Cause then it's still not right to just steal from them. In reality this is when we should've let them continue their trial until we were let free (because if it wasn't for Zach shooting Greg, they'd have nothing on us and we'd have left after Norma talked to Pete). Then we'd have to go back to Alexandria because if they are really a community that has corrupt leaders, we'd have to intervene.
Instead of destroying the whole community and leaving them homeless, we'd just get rid of the leaders or jail them in the same way that he-who-must-not-be-named was in the comics and we'd adopt all the inhabitants of Monroe. Including Sam and her family.
We should not have ran when Greg was killed. We should have stayed and let them talk to Pete. After that was done we'd be free to go besides Sam. Then we'd execute the plan with Rick. It'd be the actual right thing to do. In fact if michonne doesn't go back for those ppl at some point then she's a piece of shit.
But yeah what do you think?
Agreed, I wish you got to call her out on that.
The massacre was caused by Randall, we know this from what Norma says, and it's heavily implied.
If the ferry hadnt been massacred, randall never would have captured us there and taken us to Monroe.
Yo ucan blame literally anyone if you try hard enough.
If Pete hadnt picked up Michonne, maybe they never would have met Sam triggering the events. Therefore it's pete's fault.
If John didn't have a daughter, this wouldnt have happened. So it's John's fault.
There were children who had been murdered on that boat. Please explain how that makes him not a murderer. And how on earth, even if there weren't children, would he not be a murderer#? He shoots sam's dad out of nowhere not knowing who he was for one thing.
You seem to just like Randall a lot..is that accurate?
If Dominic didn't win custody over Michonne's daughters, this never would have happened
Screw the legal system
it caused this