Evidence for Stannis Baratheon still being alive. SPOILERS for season 6!
It seems like most people in the GoT community have resigned to the notion that Stannis Baratheon is dead in the TV show. They think his arc is concluded, and with good reason:
Most of his forces and Melisandre have seemingly deserted him, his daughter and wife are dead, he lost the battle outside Winterfell, and last time we saw him, he was sitting on the ground with his leg wounded, leaning on a tree that Brienne swung her sword at. The angle of her swing was very awkward, (considering that it was Stannis and not the tree that she had sentenced to die,) but if the distance between Brienne and the tree was just right, she may barely slit Stannis' throat with the point of her sword, instead of it getting blocked by the tree. Most people would just assume that she did hit, and that Stannis died.
But we never got to see what happened next. They cut away to Ramsay impaling a Baratheon soldier with his sword, before we got to know if Brienne actually did hit and kill Stannis. Main characters usually get their death on screen. Directors rarely cut away from the action if they want to kill off a main character. It makes one wonder why they decided to not show what happened to Stannis. Did they not mean to kill him?
The next time we get to see Brienne - in the very next episode - she has left the battlefield with no evidence that she killed him, and only focuses on protecting Sansa for a while. Roose Bolton seems convinced that Stannis is dead, but he could have gotten it wrong. After all, we never got to see Stannis' corpse. It is first in episode 4 that Brienne finally decides to talk about what happened to Stannis. At Castle Black, she walks up to Davos and Melisandre, whom she met at the parley between Renly and Stannis in episode 4 season 2. Despite claiming that she got to avenge Renly's death, that she had YEARS to mourn for him, and that she is no longer in love with him, (she loves Jaime now,) she STILL won't move on and set her hostilities towards Stannis-supporters aside.
Even when "justice" supposedly has been done, she is STILL obsessed with taking further vengeance for Renly, and feels hatred for Stannis-supporters. Davos tries to be courteous and reasonable, and Brienne answers that by being a cynical bitch. He expresses genuine concern for Shireen and Stannis, and Brienne answers by telling him that Stannis is a kinslayer whom she has executed. Davos looks horrified, but Brienne - not for the first time - takes pleasure in the suffering of others.
This does not make sense. If Brienne truly killed Stannis, she would be MUCH cooler about Renly's death. She might even feel guilty for killing Stannis. She would have murdered a wounded, unarmed, broken man who was respectful and honest to her. Brienne wants to be like a true knight, and true knights would NEVER have committed such a despicable act. I think Brienne may be lying when she said that she killed Stannis. I think something may have distracted her when she swung her sword towards Stannis. Perhaps it was Baratheon men who came to Stannis' aid, surrounding Brienne to let Stannis escape, or perhaps Podrick spotted Sansa and Theon, and told Brienne to hurry after them. That would really have made Brienne frustrated. Coming soooooo close to avenging Renly, but ending up having to let Stannis go. It would explain why she still is so hostile towards Stannis' supporters. She lied to Davos and Mel because she wanted to mislead them and make them suffer.
But "Why?", you say. "Why would the showrunners decide to keep Stannis alive, now that his arc is ended?" I would argue that his arc is not ended. Stannis is still the true and worthy protector of the realm, and with winter coming and the Boltons in power, Westeros needs more protection now than ever before. There are theories on how Stannis can regain his strength and pose a real threat to the Boltons, but those are for another post. I can still hear you say: "I guess it is POSSIBLE, but highly unlikely since there is no evidence that Stannis is alive." Well, I have found some evidence, but how strong it is will be up to you to judge. First, we have this picture:
This could be a leaked image of Stannis and some of his men, but it could also just be fake.
Also, in the second trailer for season 6, at about 01:24 into the video, we get a little sneak peak at what appears to be the great battle between the Boltons and the Northern rebels allied with the Wildlings. We se Tormund Giantsbane and some of his allies behind him, in the lower right corner of the screen, charging into battle. If you pause the video at the right moment you will see a Stannis-look-alike in the lower right corner:
Is it the real Mannis, or just someone who looks like him by coincidence? Well, if we rewind the video a fraction of a second we see this:
The banner in the right corner doesn't look familiar? Take a look at this picture from episode 5 season 1:
We see that it's the moose of House Hornwood. This Stannis-look-alike is fighting alongside the Hornwoods, and in the books Stannis recruits Hornwood soldiers in his army. Since he has lost so many Baratheon soldiers in the show and lacks Baratheon men, it would make sense that some of the soldiers who fight right by his side comes from another house that is loyal to him.
Another Stannis-related thing from the books is the retaking of Deepwood Motte. We heard from Asha/Yara Greyjoy in episode 2 that the Glovers had retaken the Castle. In the books, they are aided by Stannis. She said that the Ironborn in Deepwood died fighting. "To a man". Could it be a double meaning there, and that the man they are referring to is the Mannis himself?
Long live the one true king!
Comments
It sure sounds plausible. Plus, he's still alive in the books.
The only problem with this would be the amount of characters they're bringing back from the "dead". They already brought Jon back and there's talk of the Hound making a comeback at some point this season. Perhaps Stannis would be one too many.
They've killed so many ppl by now that bringing back a third person, who didn't really die wouldn't be a huge deal.
Especially if it's the One True King of Westeros.
BOOK SPOILERS BELOW!!!!
It wouldn't surprise me, I mean at one point in A Feast For Crows Brienne had a noose around her neck and was being strung up when the chapter ended. Everyone thought she was dead until another book later when it's all "Hi again Jamie, wanna go on another adventure?"If they could weasel their way out with that they can bail out the Mannis.
It'd honestly be really great to see him back, but probably not so high on his pedestal of greatness. I'd want to see him take up the nights watch if anything. Maybe fight with Jon so that he could avenge his men and his daughter, but after that he knows what's coming. He should become the lord commander (if Ed dies) of the nights watch and help Jon when the long night comes.
If he is alive then he is alive and I've got nothing against it, but I just don't see that happening. The actor (Stephen Dillane) even said in an interview couple months ago that he was never really a big fan of GoT, and that doesn't sound like the talk of someone who still has a contract.
The Mannis upstair is too hairy to be him. It's not even the same armor. Brienne mentionned she killed him, she has no reason to lie and she just go to Davos with sword unreleased to mention her "glorious" deed. Stephen Dillane was never spotted, contrary to Kit for example. There's no snow in your picture and a soldier's helmet near it.. Probably a picture of older seasons. GRRM mentionned the dead in the series and he talked about Stannis while he didn't mention about Jon Snow. Someofficial books of the series mentionned him dead.
Asha.. Sorry, Yara mentionned they never lost at sea.. Forgetting the battle of Fair Isle. D&D don't like Stannis's character, they mentionned it and they proved it seeing how they handled his character. The deepwood motte never happened with Stannis, and the Northern conspiracy didn't happened yet in the series: Stannis got Hornwood, Glover, Cerwyn, Tallhart, Mormont, Flint and others northerners clans, and potentially Manderly in books. In series none of that happened..
I love Stephen's performance but deal with it: he's dead and they switch his storyline to Jon Snow, the same they did with the Battle of Hardhome or Jorah becoming Connigton.
You still have books to continue the Mannis experience though.
No he's dead, I mean really the character was decent but this tinfoil worship is making me dislike him.
There is no reason to bring him back in the show, particulary as they are killing excessive character s. He had a full arc that was resolved
Brienne doesnt lie. If she said she killed him, she did exactly that.
Dude look at the picture. There is a water bottle there
It's fake
It seems that they are killing a king every season, so I'd argue Stannis would have had to die to continue that trend.
Season 1 was Robert Baratheon. Season 2 was Renly Baratheon. Season 3 was Robb Stark. Season 4 was Joffery Baratheon. Season 5 would have to be Stannis, and Season 6 could be Tommen though I figure it's already been Balon Greyjoy, and Tommen might be next season.
Also, ignoring all of that, I still think there's not really any reason to think Stannis is still alive. Brienne is very dutiful, I doubt she would have abandoned her post for Sansa just to find Stannis, spare him, then lie about it for no reason later.
Took the words right out of my mouth.
Do you not see the water bottle in the picture? It's so fake. Brienne killed him, they just shot it artistically.
The picture is blurry, it could be him.
He could have switched it. Perhaps he gave it to an impostor to trick the Boltons into believing he is dead.
I mentioned a reason: "Coming soooooo close to avenging Renly, but ending up having to let Stannis go. It would explain why she still is so hostile towards Stannis' supporters. She lied to Davos and Mel because she wanted to mislead them and make them suffer."
Gwendiline Christie was (to my knowledge) never spotted either. Yet Brienne is still on the show.
I do not own the picture. There is not always snow on the ground in the north. We see in the trailers for season 6 that there is no snow outside Winterfell.
I can not remember that Baratheon soldiers ever was around a wooden hut in the older seasons.
Kit Harrington claimed that Jon Snow was dead and never coming back, but that turned out to be a massive lie.
Yeah, that's the best argument for him being dead.
How do you know that Stannis was not involved? The Northern conspiracy can be happening off screen
That not certain until we have seen his corpse.
Looking forward to Winds of Winter. Hope it comes soon.
That's a baseless assertion.
They killed two kings in season 1; Robert Baratheon the first and Viserys Targaryen the third.
I never said she spared him by choice. And I gave an explanation for her lying.
Just out of curiosity, where/when have they mentioned this?
Oh yeah, honestly I always forget about Viserys.
Also, just because you have a reason for Brienne to spare him and lie doesn't necessarily mean it's likely beyond speculation. We're given no in-show reason to believe she was distracted, and lying about something like this seems out of character for her.
Not really? We know this far that Brienne is fairly noble, and does not lie if she does not have to. Davos and Melisandre didn't even ask or accuse her of anything, she told them unprovoked. She also takes issue with Sansa lying.
I'd say if it's baseless it's also just about as baseless as accusing her for definitely lying.
I dont know if they especially dislike the character however I'm pretty sure they dont buy into all this Mannis junk, they invested plenty into the character. To be honest its totally easy to dislike stannis based on what the character does
He Dead. Like dead dead, as in he way dying anyway and the Brienne probably cut him in half or beheaded him. So again, he dead dead dead
Considering the actor talked badly about his time on the show, I very much doubt he's still on it. Plus, I feel like there would have been more hints by this point in the season.
In an inside the episode; I'm pretty sure it's this one.
The major problem I had with them was season 2 was really close to the book; you would expect they would stick to his character and be neutral toward him seeing how it happens in books. Yet they didn't.
Now show and books are two complete different stories so I'm ok.
Well, she was expected in the show, so no one seeked her. There were released pictures of her in the riverland for example.
Season 3, Mélisandre goes to the brotherhood without Banner. (and see a resurrected Béric Dondarrion)
Well, everyone knew it was a lie. GRRM wouldn't since his list is good seeing the series.
Well, I know that many events happen offscreen in the series. But what would be the point to do the northern conspiracy in s6 and what was the point of his S5's arc?
Me too :^)
Hahaha! Well, it's a long swim to Cairo, but good luck to you.
He's dead. Get over it. His storyline is over. He was once a pretty okay guy but then he pretty much made the Baratheon line extinct - unless you count Gendry I suppose.
I like the theory, although I think it is nearly impossible, due to the Brienne factor. She is one of the few real knights in westeros, so yes, would be bad to kill a wounded man, but even worse if she did not kept her word. He was broken (body and soul), he would not have run, she would have killed the soldiers and him posteriorly. Also, she would have finished him first and only then gone after Sansa.
Well that's more saying that they don't like him as a personality. Of course it could be that they didn't enjoy the character either. What I mean is that I enjoy for example characters like Roose Bolton, Euron and Victarion, but when it comes to their personality I totally think they are assholes. Now, I'm not sure if I agree with Dan's view about Stannis as a person (or his potential as a ruler). He is cold, doesn't really show love, but imo it doesn't mean that he doesn't care.
Let's just say that if Stannis was a real person, a politician for example, he wouldn't get nearly as much love as he gets as a fictional character (just like he doesn't get much love in Westeros), because his attitude towards others is often so cold and he isn't really good at inspiring people's love and devotion.
Brienne of Tarth.
What what what what what.
The problem is Stannis is a character some hate. I'm ok with the writers who don't like him (it's their taste after all) but in the series they should have been impartial (they were still sticking close to the books at this moment); them not liking its character made his character butchered imo. From the very first season it began, with the whole Renly/Eddard discussion. Second season: Lightbringer out, the whole first scene he's introduced in is a joke. Third season: Balon is still alive, yet Stannis wants to burn his nephew. He even sentenced Davos to death. Fourth season: He burns a Florent for not believing the Red God and the Bank of Braavos does not come to him but he comes begging to them few gold. Season 5: He burns Mance, his daughter and the wildings do not bow to him as in books, he hasn't got the Northern conspiracy and not any northern house support his claim. Season 6: Battle of Fair isle apparently never happened, nor Deepwotte Motte.
I do think it's a proof by itself they don't enjoy his character either. He's ambitious, not caring for the common folk according to them, while it's any of that (for example, fighting WW, giving obsidian to NW, giving the boats in the show is a proof he actually cares). Now we both know they took liberties and Show and book Stannis are too different characters, I just don't like the changes they did.
I don't disagree with you but there's this quote in an unreleased chapter in WoW talking about Cressen, which he admits he loved. He mentionned he will feel grief for Renly's death until his last breath. He also has a background story where you can only be cold seeing life shat on you since the first day you're born.
He has support of many men (Eddard being the first), raised a common man to the rank of lord, then hand of the king. It might have impact in the common folk if they ever care about it. I acknowledged he isn't liked by some nobles, but I think it's the show's view through Renly's speech who make you think that. They're still few, but the devotion he gave to his men is strong. Look Ser Davos. Look Jon. Look his men shouting "STANNIS STANNIS STANNIS" in the battle at the wall. Is that love? I'm not sure, but devotion is a sure thing.
In the first season I don't think there was any sort of signs for their dislike of the character. Of course Renly would say Stannis is not suited to be a King, that's the whole excuse for his claim. And when it comes to Eddard, as we know he didn't buy into Renly's shite. What comes to Lightbringer, I'd say it's just case of the show more or less ditching the whole idea - I would guess there won't be "real" Lightbringer in the show at all, so having a fake one would've been kinda pointless.
I think Balon staying alive has more to do with how they decided to do the Ironborn storyline than anything with Stannis. Sure, because of this compromise we missed the whole "two is not three" or whatever, but I wouldn't say the motivation behind this decision had anything to do with Stannis. They just wanted to save killing Balon to the season where they would start the Ironborn storyline.
The burning scene in season 4 was stupid, I've always seen that as perhaps their worst decision when it comes to Stannis. It would've been easy to just have Stannis say something about them being caught for conspiring with King's Landing or something. So I agree there.
When it comes to burning of Mance, he did burn him in the books too - or at least he though he did. Now, the motivations were probably a bit different, I can't quite remember. However, even in the show Stannis' reason for burning him had nothing to do with gods, it was Mel who brought that to it when she burned him. The Wildlings bowing or not bowing to him seems a bit insignificant, at least for the show. And yeah, he didn't get the story of taking Winterfell, that goes to Jon in the show, though even he wont get a Northern conspiracy. In the books Jon's storyline has been more about the Night's Watch politics, which fits the books, but in the show I think it's a good choice to give him some action - this has been the case with the Battle of Castle Black where he was thrown right into the action and of course Hardhome. And now obviously we'll get him taking Winterfell. In the books I assume it'll be Stannis who takes Winterfell, and perhaps resurrected Jon will arrive after WF is already secured.
As I said, I don't think him not showing love would mean that he doesn't love and care. He is just an introvert person, which I'm okay with, but to many that kind of person might come off as unloving. And sure, he has a backstory to explain why he is the way he is, but that's true to most characters in aSoIaF.
Of course there are people devoted to him and people who understand him, but relatively speaking, when the rightful heir doesn't get the stronger support in the first place compared to his younger brother, there is something wrong. And of course people will cheer for their leader after a victorious battle - even Tyrion, who was widely despised, got a taste of that at the Blackwater.
Overall, I'd say this huge Stannis the Mannis love exists because people absolutely love all kinds of underdogs in any stories - especially when it can be said those underdogs have a righteous cause (Stannis being the rightful heir in this case). If Stannis was widely loved by people of Westeros, he would've never been the underdog.
I do think it already began in season 1, if you want a better explanation read this: http://turtle-paced.tumblr.com/post/126247067372/introducing-stannis-book-1-vs-season-1
But if you don't have heart to read it I won't blame you.
I honestly don't think he isn't aware of it. He gives Jon Snow "Rattleshirt". Why would he do it if not aware of the true nature of Rattleshirt? It would be weird. But even if he did, Stannis wanted to burn him for he was a "turncloak" betraying his oath to the Nightswatch, not because he didn't bend the knee.
Sure, I just wanted to complete.
Is Tyrion cheered in books though? I can't remember it.
I think it's Asha who mentionned he's more a Northerner than a Southerner. That can explain the whole hate and the "love" when he was South and North, even if we may think the Northerners back him for profit. Also Renly had at first the support of another strong house, the Tyrell, why Stannis didn't. But yeah, I agree.
Also agree with kind of all the rest.
I actually read it
Yeah, interesting points, it's true that season 1 didn't do much job of building a reputation of an honorable man for Stannis. And Ned not having stronger arguments against Renly is really the most valid point that piece has. But still, I'd say those scenes are more about Ned and Renly than they are about Stannis. And Renly is definitely different in the books and show, that's clear. And well, so is Stannis, but I'd still say that he is not as different as Renly.
I'm not really in touch with all these theories around Mance so maybe you are right about that
Just checked, the men are chanting "halfman" when Tyrion leads them to battle through the Mudgate.
And we get a shot of a Stannis-look-alike in the second trailer
I remembered that, but I could not remember any Baratheon soldiers around a wooden hut at the time.
GRRM could lie so the viewers would get surprised. I think that's why Kit lied.
To rally the north in rebellion against the Boltons of course. The point of his s5 arc would be to kill off a few characters, get Mel to abandon Stannis in favor of Jon, to weaken and humble Stannis and trick the viewers into believing the North is lost, when in fact Stannis will return and surprise the viewers.
GRRM didn't lie about Jon.
Yeah! Noble enough to deny the rightful king his crown. Noble enough to stab-rape a wounded, unarmed soldier to death and getting some weird sexual satisfaction from it. This happened in season 2 episode 10. She also blatantly lies in that scene, she lies about Renly being the rightful king in season 5 episode 10, she lies about not being a Lady, and to my knowledge, she may have lied at other times too. It is definitely in her character to lie.
Yes, and why would she willingly go up to them and be mean to them, seeking further vengeance, if she really got her "justice" for Renly?
When did she do this?
I did not accuse her for "definitely lying", I said: "I think Brienne may be lying when she said that she killed Stannis." and it is not baseless: The way she behaved towards Davos and Mel does not make sense if she actually got her revenge on Stannis. Did you not read that part of my original post? Do you not see that her behavior is weird in that scene?
But he could still have lied about others
The person she vowed to kill - Stannis the monster - was not the same person she met outside Winterfell. If Tyrion can use that logic to spare Jorah, so can Brienne.
The people who came to his aid may have brought a horse for him. If Asher/Rodrik can escape wounded on a horse, so can Stannis.
But that might have bought Stannis enough time to escape.
Not if Podrik insist her to hurry after Sansa.
Yeah, there is something to the right in the first picture - behind the helmet - that looks like a water bottle with a blue lid. I don't know what else it could be. Either the showrunners forgot to remove that bottle, (or this picture is not a screenshot from an episode, but a picture of the set) or the people who faked this picture brought it. Faking pictures makes you very thirsty.
1- Actually, he was the same monster, only defeated (what good regret could do for him at that moment in time?). Brienne and Tyrion are way different.
2- Agreed. He could have escaped. Unlikely though, but still a possibility.
3- Agreed.
4- Yes, even if Podrick insisted, I mean, how long does it take to perform a final attack? (Assuming there were not any soldiers to help him).
I think that besides the facts that it was nearly impossible to be any Baratheon soldiers left that were not crawling on the battle field (due to the fact that the Bolton army outnumber Stannis') and Brienne would really keep her word on this (as she always have), the main reason that makes me believe he is not alive is that there is no reason for it at all, Jon took his place well.
Hahahahah, I only meant that she follows the book, she deserves more recognition than a lot of "knights" actually.