David Benioff does not quite agree with you there:
4- Yes, even if Podrick insisted, I mean, how long does it take to perform a final attack? (Assuming there were not any soldiers to help him).
Obviously, if there were both soldiers there to aid Stannis and Pod distracted her, Stannis could easily escape.
If there was only Pod, he would have to insist really hard to get Brienne to leave Stannis alive. But imagine Pod running towards Brienne, shouting:
My Lady! My Lady! I have spotted Sansa! You have to come quick! Get the horses! We need to go after her! We have to find her before the Boltons do! They would notice she's gone by now! We have no time to lose! We have to hurry after her, My Lady! Sansa is in Danger! We have to go Now!
Wouldn't it make sense for Brienne to panic, shift focus and hurry after Sansa if Pod shouted something like that?
I think that besides the facts that it was nearly impossible to be any Baratheon soldiers left that were not crawling on the battle field
Preston Jacobs made a theory that half of Stannis' army did not really desert:
They were all mounted and some of them could have come Stannis to the rescue.
Brienne would really keep her word on this
Not if something hindered her
the main reason that makes me believe he is not alive is that there is no reason for it at all, Jon took his place well.
Yeah, D&D like Jon much better than Stannis, so I could see them giving Stannis' story to Jon in the show. But Stannis is still a briliant battlecommander and would be a great asset to the Northern rebels. Seeing Stannis return would also be an exciting twist.
I reckon it is just one of Stannis's soldiers Jon will round up the survivors of Stannis's army for BastardBowl as for the pic with the shields the swords don't look like stannis's
No, it was Roose Bolton who talked about Stannis Baratheon's death. I think he said something like this to Ramsay:
Thanks to you, the false King Stannis Baratheon is dead. Do you know who struck the killing blow?
But as I mentioned in my post, Roose could have gotten that wrong.
Two things could have convinced Roose that Stannis is dead:
A) He saw the corpse of a man he thought was Stannis
A sufficient amount of people have confidently told him that Stannis is dead.
If A is true, the corpse Roose saw could be the corpse of a Stannis impostor, arranged by Stannis himself (to trick the Boltons into believing that he is no longer a threat) or by Ramsay (he couldn't find Stannis' body, but still wanted to impress his dad. Ramsay has been known to fake bodies before (at least in the books)).
If B is true, the notion that Stannis is dead could just be a false rumor, started by Bolton men seeing the corpse of a Stannis impostor or by Ramsay (he couldn't confirm Stannis' death, but still wanted to impress his dad. Ramsay has been known to lie before).
Ok well I already know any counter argument is just going to be brushed off because Stannis is the one true king (which is a matter of opinion and not fact, he's a flawed person like everyone else and I don't see how he's important enough to warrant plot armor). But I'll try anyways.
I don't count Brienne killing Stannis not noble, that was a vow she swore after Renly died. To her, Renly was the true king, so she's not lying. The way she killed the unarmed soldier was pretty messed up, but if I remember right they did awful things to the bodies that Brienne found and she might have felt it was justice that way. She did lie in that scene but only so that she and Jaime would not be attacked, so she needed to do so.
She's so mean to Melissandre and Davos because she knew that they had a hand in Renly's murder. While she swore to execute Stannis, she still holds a grudge against those also responsible.
She took issue with Sansa lying in the latest episode. I'm not sure if I'm spoiling it if I told you, but if you did watch it, it's pretty obvious when she questioned why Sansa would lie.
I know you're not saying she's "definitely lying", but I haven't really seen you consider that Brienne could also not be lying in order to support the "Stannis is Alive" theory, which I still think it's a bit of a stretch. Sometimes we don't always need to see the body.
We know this far that Brienne is fairly noble, and does not lie if she does not have to.
Yeah! Noble enough to deny the rightful kin… moreg his crown. Noble enough to stab-rape a wounded, unarmed soldier to death and getting some weird sexual satisfaction from it. This happened in season 2 episode 10. She also blatantly lies in that scene, she lies about Renly being the rightful king in season 5 episode 10, she lies about not being a Lady, and to my knowledge, she may have lied at other times too. It is definitely in her character to lie.
Davos and Melisandre didn't even ask or accuse her of anything, she told them unprovoked.
Yes, and why would she willingly go up to them and be mean to them, seeking further vengeance, if she really got her "justice" for Renly?
She also takes issue with Sansa lying.
When did she do this?
I'd say if it's baseless it's also just about as baseless as accusing her for definite… [view original content]
No, it was Roose Bolton who talked about Stannis Baratheon's death. I think he said something like this to Ramsay:
Thanks to you, the fal… morese King Stannis Baratheon is dead. Do you know who struck the killing blow?
But as I mentioned in my post, Roose could have gotten that wrong.
Two things could have convinced Roose that Stannis is dead:
A) He saw the corpse of a man he thought was Stannis
A sufficient amount of people have confidently told him that Stannis is dead.
If A is true, the corpse Roose saw could be the corpse of a Stannis impostor, arranged by Stannis himself (to trick the Boltons into believing that he is no longer a threat) or by Ramsay (he couldn't find Stannis' body, but still wanted to impress his dad. Ramsay has been known to fake bodies before (at least in the books)).
If B is true, the notion that Stannis is dead could just be a false rumor, started by Bolton men seeing the corpse of a Stannis impostor… [view original content]
She may think that Renly would be a good king, perhaps even the best alternative for her personally, but the rightful one? No, that's just wrong. That's a lie she tells herself to sleep at night.
She's so mean to Melissandre and Davos because she knew that they had a hand in Renly's murder.
No, she does not. Brienne has only said she suspected Stannis, and he admitted that "I did" kill Renly, not "we did". Still, she claims she got her revenge, an eye for an eye, a death for a death, that should make them even.
I haven't really seen you consider that Brienne could also not be lying
I said she may be lying. That means I also consider that she did kill him. Brienne being mean to Davos and Mel could just be bad writing. There is plenty of that on the show. The books are soooooo much better.
Sometimes we don't always need to see the body.
If we want to be certain that a character is dead, then yes; we need to see the body.
Ok well I already know any counter argument is just going to be brushed off because Stannis is the one true king (which is a matter of opini… moreon and not fact, he's a flawed person like everyone else and I don't see how he's important enough to warrant plot armor). But I'll try anyways.
I don't count Brienne killing Stannis not noble, that was a vow she swore after Renly died. To her, Renly was the true king, so she's not lying. The way she killed the unarmed soldier was pretty messed up, but if I remember right they did awful things to the bodies that Brienne found and she might have felt it was justice that way. She did lie in that scene but only so that she and Jaime would not be attacked, so she needed to do so.
She's so mean to Melissandre and Davos because she knew that they had a hand in Renly's murder. While she swore to execute Stannis, she still holds a grudge against those also responsible.
She took issue with Sansa lying in … [view original content]
Proof that she never lies. That is in fact impossible, so you need evidence that she doesn't lie. But she does lie:
She says Jaime is not Jaime, she lies about Renly being the rightful king, she lies about not being a Lady, and to my knowledge, she may have lied at other times too.
The way Brienne is mean towards Davos and Mel does not make any sense if she actually killed Stannis. It may just be bad writing, though.
1- Accepting death like a man does not provides him any humanity. Benioff is wrong on this.
4- Again, I really believe (with good reason) that she would kill him before leaving.
4.1- Now this theory is great, I always expected something like that coming from Stannis you know? He was a strategist after all. But we have to remember that those men had good reasons to desert on the first place. All in all, it is a good theory anyway.
4.2- Something BIG would have to hindered her on that case mate, and you DO talk about something big, but it is all speculation.
4.3- Seems like we agree on this, I personally think that they could make this more interesting by bringing him back. Pretty hard though.
1- Actually, he was the same monster
David Benioff does not quite agree with you there:
4- Yes, even if Podrick insisted, … moreI mean, how long does it take to perform a final attack? (Assuming there were not any soldiers to help him).
Obviously, if there were both soldiers there to aid Stannis and Pod distracted her, Stannis could easily escape.
If there was only Pod, he would have to insist really hard to get Brienne to leave Stannis alive. But imagine Pod running towards Brienne, shouting:
My Lady! My Lady! I have spotted Sansa! You have to come quick! Get the horses! We need to go after her! We have to find her before the Boltons do! They would notice she's gone by now! We have no time to lose! We have to hurry after her, My Lady! Sansa is in Danger! We have to go Now!
Wouldn't it make sense for Brienne to panic, shift focus and hurry after Sansa if Pod shouted something like that?
I think that besides… [view original content]
I think you have a rigid view of what lying is in this context. She said Renly is the rightful king because she believed that to be true, and in her eyes, eventhough she's technically a lady in that she comes from a noble house, she doesnt feel like one. Thats not a lie. What other times she's lied, please let me in on that because I dont recall any.
And she was mean to Davos and Mel because she believes they helped Stannis murder Renly. Its not hard to understand that. She was right about Mel and Davos was there, eventhough she didnt know he wasnt a part of it, and loyal to Stannis, who she hated it. It makes perfect sense to me.
Proof that she never lies. That is in fact impossible, so you need evidence that she doesn't lie. But she does lie:
She says Jaime is not… more Jaime, she lies about Renly being the rightful king, she lies about not being a Lady, and to my knowledge, she may have lied at other times too.
The way Brienne is mean towards Davos and Mel does not make any sense if she actually killed Stannis. It may just be bad writing, though.
1- Accepting death like a man does not provides him any humanity. Benioff is wrong on this.
Stannis was humble, respectful and honest to Brienne. It must have changed her view on him to some degree.
4- Again, I really believe (with good reason) that she would kill him before leaving.
Even if Pod raised the alarm and made Brienne panic in the fear for Sansa's safety?
But we have to remember that those men had good reasons to desert on the first place
Half the army leaving, without anyone noticing, makes no sense, especially considering that they had to sneak throughout the camp and steal the neighing horses of the other half of the army.
Answer this question for me: Do you seriously think ~1300 men moving around with ~2600 neighing horses would not wake a single person as they passed by their tents and would not get spotted by a single guard?
If they had been spotted, Stannis would have been notified immediately.
And no - the burning of Shireen would not make all the sellswords suddenly want to leave. They were from Essos, where the R'hllor religion is prominent. Even those who don't worship R'hllor themselves believe that the red priests have power. Burning Shireen was a great sacrifice, and they would believe that their campaign is now blessed by a god. They would even see evidence of this before they could leave: If they want to run away from the camp, most of the snow has to go, but if the snow went away, they would think that R'hllor is with them. That would only encourage them to stay with Stannis.
Also, they are sellswords! People who are willing to kill for money and the opportunity to rape and plunder. They have probably seen much worse things in their lives than a burning child. Most of them won't care as long as they get their money, and those who care probably knows that the Boltons are worse and need to be stopped.
it is all speculation.
I confess it is, but my speculations are here to try explain Brienne's weird behavior towards Davos and Mel and how Stannis could be alive, considering the evidence I brought up in my original post.
I personally think that they could make this more interesting by bringing him back. Pretty hard though.
Yeah, and it's Dumb&Dumber we are talking about here. Their bad writing skills are evident, especially in season 5. They probably won't bring Stannis back, even if someone gave them the idea. But they guy fighting with Tormund in the trailer still looks like him. I really don't know what to believe here.
She said Renly is the rightful king because she believed that to be true, and in her eyes, eventhough she's technically a lady in that she comes from a noble house, she doesnt feel like one. Thats not a lie.
Believing that someone would be a good king that one personally would like to see on the throne, does not make that person "the rightful king". That is a lie Brienne tells her self in order to sleep at night. As far as I am concerned, she has never said something like; "I don't feel like a Lady," or "Please don't call me a Lady, I don't feel like one." What she does is outright telling people on multiple occasions that "I am not a Lady". She claims to not be something she knows she is in order to mislead people. That is lying.
And she was mean to Davos and Mel because she believes they helped Stannis murder Renly.
That is another baseless assertion. It was always Sannis she mentioned she wanted to take revenge on, and only Stannis. She never mention that she suspected anyone else to be involved in the killing. If she did, she should have asked Stannis about it. He admitted that "I did" kill Renly, not "we did". And she claims she got her revenge. That should have made her cooler about Renly's death.
I think you have a rigid view of what lying is in this context. She said Renly is the rightful king because she believed that to be true, an… mored in her eyes, eventhough she's technically a lady in that she comes from a noble house, she doesnt feel like one. Thats not a lie. What other times she's lied, please let me in on that because I dont recall any.
And she was mean to Davos and Mel because she believes they helped Stannis murder Renly. Its not hard to understand that. She was right about Mel and Davos was there, eventhough she didnt know he wasnt a part of it, and loyal to Stannis, who she hated it. It makes perfect sense to me.
Charles Dance and Myrcella's actor Nell Tiger Free both came back as a corpse after the season they died.
They could have used CGI if Dillane didn't want to come back. Or just make a wax figure of his decapitated head, like they did with Sean Bean, and dress up a headless doll in Stannis' armor.
"Coming soooooo close to avenging Renly, but ending up having to let Stannis go. It would explain why she still is so hostile towards Stannis' supporters. She lied to Davos and Mel because she wanted to mislead them and make them suffer." Didn't you read this part?
Charles Dance and Myrcella's actor Nell Tiger Free both came back as a corpse after the season they died.
They could have used CGI if Dilla… morene didn't want to come back. Or just make a wax figure of his decapitated head, like they did with Sean Bean, and dress up a headless doll in Stannis' armor.
They could've used CGI, I agree. In fact I was hoping they would flay Stannis just to give us a big middle finger.
But I just think it was a staffing issue. He's dead, they just can't bring him back to prove it
Stannis will forever be the one true king.
But if the actor doesn't care about the show and is only in it for the money, then you deserve a horrible death.
"Coming soooooo close to avenging Renly, but ending up having to let Stannis go. It would explain why she still is so hostile towards Stanni… mores' supporters. She lied to Davos and Mel because she wanted to mislead them and make them suffer." Didn't you read this part?
Also this rightful king stuff is so dumb, whoever takes the thrones is the rightful king, I dont know why everyone bleats on about it. Robert Baratheon was never the rightful king when he took it
She said Renly is the rightful king because she believed that to be true, and in her eyes, eventhough she's technically a lady in that she c… moreomes from a noble house, she doesnt feel like one. Thats not a lie.
Believing that someone would be a good king that one personally would like to see on the throne, does not make that person "the rightful king". That is a lie Brienne tells her self in order to sleep at night. As far as I am concerned, she has never said something like; "I don't feel like a Lady," or "Please don't call me a Lady, I don't feel like one." What she does is outright telling people on multiple occasions that "I am not a Lady". She claims to not be something she knows she is in order to mislead people. That is lying.
And she was mean to Davos and Mel because she believes they helped Stannis murder Renly.
That is another baseless assertion. It was always Sannis she mentioned she wanted to take revenge on, an… [view original content]
Alright, clearly you are all in with this Stannis is the rightful king business and everything else is a lie. I guess you wont be convinced he's dead unless you see his head on a pike.
She said Renly is the rightful king because she believed that to be true, and in her eyes, eventhough she's technically a lady in that she c… moreomes from a noble house, she doesnt feel like one. Thats not a lie.
Believing that someone would be a good king that one personally would like to see on the throne, does not make that person "the rightful king". That is a lie Brienne tells her self in order to sleep at night. As far as I am concerned, she has never said something like; "I don't feel like a Lady," or "Please don't call me a Lady, I don't feel like one." What she does is outright telling people on multiple occasions that "I am not a Lady". She claims to not be something she knows she is in order to mislead people. That is lying.
And she was mean to Davos and Mel because she believes they helped Stannis murder Renly.
That is another baseless assertion. It was always Sannis she mentioned she wanted to take revenge on, an… [view original content]
Stephen Dillane is honest about it: it's a job after all, and you need to pay the bills and get money. It's a thing Natalie Dormer said too.
Better that than being hypocritical about the show.
And yes the actor don't care about the show.. Why should he praise it if he didn't like the experience? Being in the same room for 3 years playing almost all your scenes in it isn't the kind of role you would want to play, or understand.
Yet he was the perfect actor to play Stannis, seeing how both have similarities and are bond to do their "duties".
Stannis will forever be the one true king.
But if the actor doesn't care about the show and is only in it for the money, then you deserve a horrible death.
They are baseless only if you ignore the fact that the showrunners decided to not have Stannis death on screen, the fact that Brienne does not behave like she got her revenge, the possibly leaked picture of Stannis (I know that it might be fake), the Stannis-look-alike in the trailer fighting alongside some of Stannis' bannermen from the books, and Deepwood Motte being liberated, possibly by "a man" who is the Mannis in the books.
whoever takes the thrones is the rightful king
Maybe by the laws of those who just took the thrones, but not by the "laws of the land".
I dont know why everyone bleats on about it.
Because if there is a rigorous set of rules for who will govern the realm, there will be more peace and order.
Robert Baratheon was never the rightful king when he took it
Oh, but he was. Robert was a direct, trueborn descendant of Aegon Targaryen the fifth. Aerys Targaryen the second was mad and therefore not fit to rule. When Aerion Brightflame died, a great counsel was called, and it was decided that any children Aerion had would not get the throne, since they would inherit madness from their father. By that rule, any children of Aerys should not sit the throne either. Besides, Rhaegar dishonored and caused distress for House Stark and House Baratheon by abducting Lyanna, he was not a worthy protector of the realm. Rhaegar's children got killed by the Lannisters. Viserys was too young to rule and grew mad when he got older, and it's the same case with Dany (arguably). With all of them out of the way, the throne rightfully goes to the living heir of the last King who has a living heir. Which was Robert Baratheon. Here's the family tree:
That is another baseless assertion.
All these theories you have are just as baseless
Also this rightful king stuff is so dumb, wh… moreoever takes the thrones is the rightful king, I dont know why everyone bleats on about it. Robert Baratheon was never the rightful king when he took it
I know whoever took over would need some royal link so the common people would "allow" it (the common people belve the power resides with the high power families). But really anyone with royal blood could be king/queen somehow. Succession doesnt happen how it should a lot of the time. What is described above is scribes or whatever legitimizing robert through bullshit connections. Really he fought and won the throne, there was no thoughts of lawful succession.
All these theories you have are just as baseless
They are baseless only if you ignore the fact that the showrunners decided to not h… moreave Stannis death on screen, the fact that Brienne does not behave like she got her revenge, the possibly leaked picture of Stannis (I know that it might be fake), the Stannis-look-alike in the trailer fighting alongside some of Stannis' bannermen from the books, and Deepwood Motte being liberated, possibly by "a man" who is the Mannis in the books.
whoever takes the thrones is the rightful king
Maybe by the laws of those who just took the thrones, but not by the "laws of the land".
I dont know why everyone bleats on about it.
Because if there is a rigorous set of rules for who will govern the realm, there will be more peace and order.
Robert Baratheon was never the rightful king when he took it
Oh, but he was. Robert was a direct, trueborn descendant of Aegon Tar… [view original content]
I will not be completely sure he is dead until I see his corpse, but I would be pretty sure he is dead if he does not appear during season six. We will just have to wait and see.
Alright, clearly you are all in with this Stannis is the rightful king business and everything else is a lie. I guess you wont be convinced he's dead unless you see his head on a pike.
There was. The current king and (most of) his heirs were a danger to the realm. Westeros needed a new ruler and after the unfit and the dead Targaryens were ruled out, Robert would be next in line.
I know whoever took over would need some royal link so the common people would "allow" it (the common people belve the power resides with th… moree high power families). But really anyone with royal blood could be king/queen somehow. Succession doesnt happen how it should a lot of the time. What is described above is scribes or whatever legitimizing robert through bullshit connections. Really he fought and won the throne, there was no thoughts of lawful succession.
I know whoever took over would need some royal link so the common people would "allow" it (the common people belve the power resides with th… moree high power families). But really anyone with royal blood could be king/queen somehow. Succession doesnt happen how it should a lot of the time. What is described above is scribes or whatever legitimizing robert through bullshit connections. Really he fought and won the throne, there was no thoughts of lawful succession.
Stephen Dillane is honest about it: it's a job after all, and you need to pay the bills and get money. It's a thing Natalie Dormer said too.… more
Better that than being hypocritical about the show.
And yes the actor don't care about the show.. Why should he praise it if he didn't like the experience? Being in the same room for 3 years playing almost all your scenes in it isn't the kind of role you would want to play, or understand.
Yet he was the perfect actor to play Stannis, seeing how both have similarities and are bond to do their "duties".
1- Yes, probably, but not on a degree that would save him from her, far from that.
4- I do not believe that she would have panicked on the first place. Yes I can clearly imagine what you described on your early comment, I understand you, I really do, but Great Brienne was there mate, Stannis was given, believing he is alive is not only speculation but also a really bad bet.
4.1- You are right. That is practically impossible. What does not necessarily implies that they did not deserted, even if someone spotted them, that of course would involve the soldiers machinations, secundary plots that I really miss, but that the show not always can work with.
4.2- Brienne's behavior was not weird mate, she knows for sure that The Red Woman and the Onion Knight were involved in Renly's murder. She does not trust them near Sansa, also, confronting them like that was her way to make them suffer as she did when Renly was killed. It was a warning to them.
4.3- Oh, hahahaha, I understand, I think they write just well, considering. I like the idea of him coming back, but this is GOT we are typing about, he is dead for sure, That is my final bet.
1- Accepting death like a man does not provides him any humanity. Benioff is wrong on this.
Stannis was humble, respectful and hones… moret to Brienne. It must have changed her view on him to some degree.
4- Again, I really believe (with good reason) that she would kill him before leaving.
Even if Pod raised the alarm and made Brienne panic in the fear for Sansa's safety?
But we have to remember that those men had good reasons to desert on the first place
Half the army leaving, without anyone noticing, makes no sense, especially considering that they had to sneak throughout the camp and steal the neighing horses of the other half of the army.
Answer this question for me: Do you seriously think ~1300 men moving around with ~2600 neighing horses would not wake a single person as they passed by their tents and would not get spotted by a single guard?
If they had been spotted, Stannis would have been notified i… [view original content]
1- Yes, probably, but not on a degree that would save him from her, far from that.
She would still want to kill him, but it would be harder for her to do so. It would make her more hesitant and perhaps she would feel a little guilty.
I do not believe that she would have panicked on the first place. Yes I can clearly imagine what you described on your early comment, I understand you, I really do, but Great Brienne was there mate, Stannis was given, believing he is alive is not only speculation but also a really bad bet.
Well, there we disagree. Brienne has been prone to panic before, and if she had the choice between immediately running after a defenseless girl in danger, whom she swore to protect, or killing a sworn enemy who killed the king she used to love, but now is completely different from what she expected him to be, being humble, respectful, honest and showing guilt, regret, weakness and sorrow, I think it would be possible for her to choose the first alternative. But I would not bet on Stannis being alive either.
What does not necessarily implies that they did not deserted, even if someone spotted them, that of course would involve the soldiers machinations, secundary plots that I really miss, but that the show not always can work with.
If there was a conspiracy among the soldiers to not warn Stannis about the mutiny and not wake him during that night, practically all of his soldier would have to be part of it. (All the people who woke up to the sound of thousands of men walking and thousands of horses neighing, and all the guards in the camp would either have intentionally not raised the alarm or have been threatened into silence immediately after they spot the deserters.) That would include most of the men who stayed behind with Stannis. It would be very weird if they helped a ton of people to betray a king who they are willing to die for themselves. It just doesn't make sense.
Brienne's behavior was not weird mate, she knows for sure that The Red Woman and the Onion Knight were involved in Renly's murder.
No she does not. It was always Sannis she mentioned she wanted to take revenge on, and only Stannis. She never mention that she suspected anyone else to be involved in the killing. If she did, she should have asked Stannis about it. He admitted that "I did" kill Renly, not "we did". And she claims she got her revenge. An eye for an eye, a death for a death, that should make them even. That should have made her cooler about Renly's death. Yet she is more bitter about it after she meets Stannis than before she meets him. That does not make any sense if she killed him.
I think they write just well
You seriously do? D&D's bad writing skills is a topic on its own, but here is an analysis of their writing in season 5 if you are interested:
he is dead for sure, That is my final bet.
Probably, but I will see if he appears in season 6 before I make any final conclusion.
1- Look, mate, there really is a misunderstanding coming from you on this point. I can not explain that to you if you can not see it by yourself, you keep talking about how good of a man Stannis was on his final moments (for me, he was always humble, always a leader, always intelligent, always brave) when that actually does not have any impact on Brienne, but ok, that is your opinion, now, lets suppose it would be hard for Brienne to do it, she would have it done the same. You said it yourself, so, that does not even count as a point. She would have killed him, of course he was in guilt, in sorrow, he was defeated and had nothing left but to accep Brienne's swift justice.
4- I think it would be possible for her to choose both, if you know what I am saying.
4.1- I never mentioned which machinations those would be mate, we can only imagine, remember though, in GOT every single character have a story of his own, a meaning. That said, this is a totally open theme. Left for us to ponder.
4.2- I never said that Brienne would like to take vengeance on them, no, in that case she would have done it already. I only meant that she knows they were involved, please, have not you seen how she looked at them? Do you really believe that she do not know? Seeing Melisandre there and all? knowing that both served him? The reason she looked "bitter" to you is because she wanted to told them that right on their faces. Satisfaction mate, satisfaction...
4.3- They are very good, you know, considering the Show and all? This video could not even understand how the Sansa character works, like if someone has changed only by showing strength in a single scene.
4.4- Yes, I could do that to, but choosing a side is way more interesting, this is GOT after all, and "When you play the Game Of Thrones, you win or you die."
1- Yes, probably, but not on a degree that would save him from her, far from that.
She would still want to kill him, but it would be… more harder for her to do so. It would make her more hesitant and perhaps she would feel a little guilty.
I do not believe that she would have panicked on the first place. Yes I can clearly imagine what you described on your early comment, I understand you, I really do, but Great Brienne was there mate, Stannis was given, believing he is alive is not only speculation but also a really bad bet.
Well, there we disagree. Brienne has been prone to panic before, and if she had the choice between immediately running after a defenseless girl in danger, whom she swore to protect, or killing a sworn enemy who killed the king she used to love, but now is completely different from what she expected him to be, being humble, respectful, honest and showing guilt, regret, weakness and sorrow, I think it would … [view original content]
you keep talking about how good of a man Stannis was on his final moments (for me, he was always humble, always a leader, always intelligent, always brave)
I don't think Stannis was a significantly better person in that scene compared to how he was before, but my point was that Brienne finally saw that Stannis was not the monster she thought he was. Benioff is not wrong on this, because he is a co-creator on the show. What he thinks happened is what happened. He will wright the show based on what he believes.
I think it would be possible for her to choose both, if you know what I am saying.
I see what you mean. First she kills Stannis, then she runs after Sansa. But it would not be possible to choose both of the alternatives I gave. I said "if she had the choice between IMMEDIATELY running after a defenseless girl in danger," and she will not run after Sansa immediately if she kills Stannis first. You may disagree on this, but I think that in the heat of the moment, when Pod has raised the alarm, told Brienne that he has spotted Sansa and insists that they get the horses and go after her, before they lose what may be their last chance to save her, Brienne may feel so compelled to rescue Sansa, and feel sufficient difficulty in killing Stannis, that she turns away from him and hurries after Sansa.
My point is that if Brienne has no time to lose and must make a decision, I don't think she would bother trying to summon the will to murder an unarmed, wounded, humble, respectful, honest and broken man who is showing guilt, regret, weakness and sorrow. She needed 12 seconds to summon her will to swing her sword at Stannis after he said "Go on, do your duty." It may be even more difficult to do it a second time, after she gets Sansa on her mind. When Jon tried to execute Ygritte, after failing to do it once, he could not summon the will to do it again and did let her go. I think something similar could happen to Brienne (given she is pressured by Pod to hurry after Sansa). But there we disagree.
I only meant that she knows they were involved, please, have not you seen how she looked at them? Do you really believe that she do not know? Seeing Melisandre there and all? knowing that both served him?
Someone serving Stannis does not mean they were involved in Renly's killing. She may have suspected that Davos and Mel were involved, but as far as I am concerned, she has no reason for it. She may know that Mel is a sorceress who could have aided Stannis in the killing, but Stannis made it seem to Brienne like he did it alone. "He admitted it, you know." "I did." That is singular, not plural.
But even if she did suspect Davos and Mel, it does not make sense for Brienne to be that bitter. She was fairly calm when she met Stannis, whom she knew killed Renly. And she was much more bitter when she met Davos and Mel, whom she at worst only suspected was involved in the killing of Renly, a killing that was supposedly avenged. It does not make any sense what so ever that she would be more bitter in the second case.
The reason she looked "bitter" to you is because she wanted to told them that right on their faces. Satisfaction mate, satisfaction...
So you are saying she really has moved on, and is fairly cool about Renly's death, and only seems bitter because she made a face? I don't buy that. She brought up Renly's death and talked about it as if it still troubled her. As Benioff said, it was somewhat difficult for Brienne to kill Stannis. The small amount of guilt for killing him would not make her as disrespectful as she was. If Stannis was dead, her desire for seeing Stannis-supporters suffer would go down, not up.
They are very good, you know, considering the Show and all?
I can't stand the logical inconsistencies in the show. The books are MUCH better.
1- Alright... It can be a little tricky sometimes so... I will really try to explain that to you. First of all, this characters have essence, so just because we are talking about the Show, that does not mean that we have to accept the runners' OPINIONS as the absolute "truth". You have to notice that everything here is open to interpretations, that one being Benioff's. Even Martin can write a character and interpretate him in different forms in different occasions, there is no such a thing as "truth" only point of views, the only "truth" that does exists is the previously mentioned essence. So she saw he was not that bad, then what? "Ohhh, poor Stannis, I will spare you." There are 2 major errors on your analysis: First, he was exactly the same (sorry to break it up for you) and second, does not matter if it was hard or easy for her to kill him (what would be easy) she had already moved, remember? No yelling could stop that sword once it goes down. He not being what she expected is not a valid point to argue if you stop and think about it.
4- Agree when you say that we disagree on this one. The way I see it, there would not be "immediately" choice to be done.
4.1- So you think that she do not know... She knows that he did not kill Renly alone, she knows he was not a sorcerer. She knows Mel helped him, she knows Davos must have been there for sure, but you know what mate? That does not matter for her, her business were with Stannis and only Stannis.
4.2- No, it is not about a face. I meant that she only wanted Stannis ex-followers to felt the same way she did when Renly was Dead and there was nothing that she could do. Also, you can not know for sure how bitter she was while killing Stannis. She was calm on the surface, at least.
4.3- The books are perfect. The show is great. Perfect as for an adaptation.
you keep talking about how good of a man Stannis was on his final moments (for me, he was always humble, always a leader, always intelligent… more, always brave)
I don't think Stannis was a significantly better person in that scene compared to how he was before, but my point was that Brienne finally saw that Stannis was not the monster she thought he was. Benioff is not wrong on this, because he is a co-creator on the show. What he thinks happened is what happened. He will wright the show based on what he believes.
I think it would be possible for her to choose both, if you know what I am saying.
I see what you mean. First she kills Stannis, then she runs after Sansa. But it would not be possible to choose both of the alternatives I gave. I said "if she had the choice between IMMEDIATELY running after a defenseless girl in danger," and she will not run after Sansa immediately if she kills Stannis first. You may disagree on thi… [view original content]
Shit. This discussion is getting long. We should try to end it soon.
You have to notice that everything here is open to interpretations, that one being Benioff's.
Well, Benioff's interpretation is still valid. She may have felt some difficulty in killing Stannis, but as I said earlier, it would not be enough to spare him on it's own. However, with other factors in play as well, I believe it may just be enough to make her leave him be.
he was exactly the same (sorry to break it up for you)
Sorry to break it to you, but I have stated before that I don't think he was significantly different in that scene compared to other times. That was never the point. The point was that Brienne finally saw what Stannis really is, which was not the monster she imagined.
she had already moved, remember? No yelling could stop that sword once it goes down.
As I mentioned in my original post, the angle of her swing was very awkward, and likely to hit the tree instead of Stannis. Jon Snow also had started to swing his sword to execute Ygritte, but he ended up missing her neck.
He not being what she expected is not a valid point to argue if you stop and think about it.
I agree that it's not a valid point on it's own, but again; with other factors in play as well, it may suffice.
The way I see it, there would not be "immediately" choice to be done.
You think Brienne has time to do whatever she pleases before she runs to find Sansa? It's not like Sansa was waiting for her. Any moment they spend lingering with Stannis, is a moment Sansa could get lost or recaptured by the Boltons. If they want a good chance at finding her, instead of losing track of her forever, they would have to take action immediately.
She knows that he did not kill Renly alone, she knows he was not a sorcerer
For all Brienne knows, Stannis might have dabbled in sorcery. He does actually try to use bloodmagic himself when he names the usurpers and burns the leeches. Bloodmagic seems like something a layman can do. Stannis talks like he did it alone: "otherwise I shall destroy you." "I killed my brother." "I did." And considering that Melisandre is a big fraud, there probably was no shadow baby. That was just an illusion she showed Davos. What really happened, was that Mel gave Stannis a potion that enhances warging abilities. Stannis warged air, and his disembodied conscientiousness was the shadow monster. Stannis dreamed that he killed Renly, but it actually happened. Don't believe me? Preston Jacobs explains it better:
She knows Mel helped him
Brienne may have suspected it, but she would have no ideal how. Brienne could have asked Stannis all about how he killed Renly and who else is involved, but she was not concerned about that at all.
she knows Davos must have been there for sure
How on earth would she have gotten that idea?
her business were with Stannis and only Stannis.
Exactly, and she claimed that her business was done. Why would she get more bitter after they are "even"?
I meant that she only wanted Stannis ex-followers to felt the same way she did when Renly was Dead and there was nothing that she could do.
But bringing them the news of Stannis' death in a more respectful way would still make Davos and Mel mourn for Stannis. Why would she be more eager to see Stannis-supporters suffer and pour salt in the wound now, after they are "even"?
you can not know for sure how bitter she was while killing Stannis
If she was as bitter as she was towards Davos and Mel, she would make Stannis suffer more than he did.
The show is great. Perfect as for an adaptation.
I find the show to be thrilling, but it lacks too much of what makes the books so great. I guess we just have to agree to disagree there as well.
Comments
David Benioff does not quite agree with you there:
Obviously, if there were both soldiers there to aid Stannis and Pod distracted her, Stannis could easily escape.
If there was only Pod, he would have to insist really hard to get Brienne to leave Stannis alive. But imagine Pod running towards Brienne, shouting:
My Lady! My Lady! I have spotted Sansa! You have to come quick! Get the horses! We need to go after her! We have to find her before the Boltons do! They would notice she's gone by now! We have no time to lose! We have to hurry after her, My Lady! Sansa is in Danger! We have to go Now!
Wouldn't it make sense for Brienne to panic, shift focus and hurry after Sansa if Pod shouted something like that?
Preston Jacobs made a theory that half of Stannis' army did not really desert:
They were all mounted and some of them could have come Stannis to the rescue.
Not if something hindered her
Yeah, D&D like Jon much better than Stannis, so I could see them giving Stannis' story to Jon in the show. But Stannis is still a briliant battlecommander and would be a great asset to the Northern rebels. Seeing Stannis return would also be an exciting twist.
I reckon it is just one of Stannis's soldiers Jon will round up the survivors of Stannis's army for BastardBowl as for the pic with the shields the swords don't look like stannis's
Didn't Ramsay say they found Stannis' body in episode 1?
Yes. Roose says something like how he wants to reward who did it. So yeah, he ded.
No, it was Roose Bolton who talked about Stannis Baratheon's death. I think he said something like this to Ramsay:
Thanks to you, the false King Stannis Baratheon is dead. Do you know who struck the killing blow?
But as I mentioned in my post, Roose could have gotten that wrong.
Two things could have convinced Roose that Stannis is dead:
A) He saw the corpse of a man he thought was Stannis
If A is true, the corpse Roose saw could be the corpse of a Stannis impostor, arranged by Stannis himself (to trick the Boltons into believing that he is no longer a threat) or by Ramsay (he couldn't find Stannis' body, but still wanted to impress his dad. Ramsay has been known to fake bodies before (at least in the books)).
If B is true, the notion that Stannis is dead could just be a false rumor, started by Bolton men seeing the corpse of a Stannis impostor or by Ramsay (he couldn't confirm Stannis' death, but still wanted to impress his dad. Ramsay has been known to lie before).
Ok well I already know any counter argument is just going to be brushed off because Stannis is the one true king (which is a matter of opinion and not fact, he's a flawed person like everyone else and I don't see how he's important enough to warrant plot armor). But I'll try anyways.
I don't count Brienne killing Stannis not noble, that was a vow she swore after Renly died. To her, Renly was the true king, so she's not lying. The way she killed the unarmed soldier was pretty messed up, but if I remember right they did awful things to the bodies that Brienne found and she might have felt it was justice that way. She did lie in that scene but only so that she and Jaime would not be attacked, so she needed to do so.
She's so mean to Melissandre and Davos because she knew that they had a hand in Renly's murder. While she swore to execute Stannis, she still holds a grudge against those also responsible.
She took issue with Sansa lying in the latest episode. I'm not sure if I'm spoiling it if I told you, but if you did watch it, it's pretty obvious when she questioned why Sansa would lie.
I know you're not saying she's "definitely lying", but I haven't really seen you consider that Brienne could also not be lying in order to support the "Stannis is Alive" theory, which I still think it's a bit of a stretch. Sometimes we don't always need to see the body.
Or the roose comment and the brienne comment were to stop any doubt that he was dead.
That would not suffice. Only his corpse would.
She may think that Renly would be a good king, perhaps even the best alternative for her personally, but the rightful one? No, that's just wrong. That's a lie she tells herself to sleep at night.
No, she does not. Brienne has only said she suspected Stannis, and he admitted that "I did" kill Renly, not "we did". Still, she claims she got her revenge, an eye for an eye, a death for a death, that should make them even.
I said she may be lying. That means I also consider that she did kill him. Brienne being mean to Davos and Mel could just be bad writing. There is plenty of that on the show. The books are soooooo much better.
If we want to be certain that a character is dead, then yes; we need to see the body.
Baseless? Ive watched every scene of hers and read all her book chapters. What else do I need?
Proof that she never lies. That is in fact impossible, so you need evidence that she doesn't lie. But she does lie:
She says Jaime is not Jaime, she lies about Renly being the rightful king, she lies about not being a Lady, and to my knowledge, she may have lied at other times too.
The way Brienne is mean towards Davos and Mel does not make any sense if she actually killed Stannis. It may just be bad writing, though.
1- Accepting death like a man does not provides him any humanity. Benioff is wrong on this.
4- Again, I really believe (with good reason) that she would kill him before leaving.
4.1- Now this theory is great, I always expected something like that coming from Stannis you know? He was a strategist after all. But we have to remember that those men had good reasons to desert on the first place. All in all, it is a good theory anyway.
4.2- Something BIG would have to hindered her on that case mate, and you DO talk about something big, but it is all speculation.
4.3- Seems like we agree on this, I personally think that they could make this more interesting by bringing him back. Pretty hard though.
I think you have a rigid view of what lying is in this context. She said Renly is the rightful king because she believed that to be true, and in her eyes, eventhough she's technically a lady in that she comes from a noble house, she doesnt feel like one. Thats not a lie. What other times she's lied, please let me in on that because I dont recall any.
And she was mean to Davos and Mel because she believes they helped Stannis murder Renly. Its not hard to understand that. She was right about Mel and Davos was there, eventhough she didnt know he wasnt a part of it, and loyal to Stannis, who she hated it. It makes perfect sense to me.
I don't think Stephen Dillane really wants to come back on the show just to play a corpse. So that's the best they'll get
Stannis was humble, respectful and honest to Brienne. It must have changed her view on him to some degree.
Even if Pod raised the alarm and made Brienne panic in the fear for Sansa's safety?
Half the army leaving, without anyone noticing, makes no sense, especially considering that they had to sneak throughout the camp and steal the neighing horses of the other half of the army.
Answer this question for me: Do you seriously think ~1300 men moving around with ~2600 neighing horses would not wake a single person as they passed by their tents and would not get spotted by a single guard?
If they had been spotted, Stannis would have been notified immediately.
And no - the burning of Shireen would not make all the sellswords suddenly want to leave. They were from Essos, where the R'hllor religion is prominent. Even those who don't worship R'hllor themselves believe that the red priests have power. Burning Shireen was a great sacrifice, and they would believe that their campaign is now blessed by a god. They would even see evidence of this before they could leave: If they want to run away from the camp, most of the snow has to go, but if the snow went away, they would think that R'hllor is with them. That would only encourage them to stay with Stannis.
Also, they are sellswords! People who are willing to kill for money and the opportunity to rape and plunder. They have probably seen much worse things in their lives than a burning child. Most of them won't care as long as they get their money, and those who care probably knows that the Boltons are worse and need to be stopped.
I confess it is, but my speculations are here to try explain Brienne's weird behavior towards Davos and Mel and how Stannis could be alive, considering the evidence I brought up in my original post.
Yeah, and it's Dumb&Dumber we are talking about here. Their bad writing skills are evident, especially in season 5. They probably won't bring Stannis back, even if someone gave them the idea. But they guy fighting with Tormund in the trailer still looks like him. I really don't know what to believe here.
also i would wonder why would Brienne lie about killing him??..
Believing that someone would be a good king that one personally would like to see on the throne, does not make that person "the rightful king". That is a lie Brienne tells her self in order to sleep at night. As far as I am concerned, she has never said something like; "I don't feel like a Lady," or "Please don't call me a Lady, I don't feel like one." What she does is outright telling people on multiple occasions that "I am not a Lady". She claims to not be something she knows she is in order to mislead people. That is lying.
That is another baseless assertion. It was always Sannis she mentioned she wanted to take revenge on, and only Stannis. She never mention that she suspected anyone else to be involved in the killing. If she did, she should have asked Stannis about it. He admitted that "I did" kill Renly, not "we did". And she claims she got her revenge. That should have made her cooler about Renly's death.
Charles Dance and Myrcella's actor Nell Tiger Free both came back as a corpse after the season they died.
They could have used CGI if Dillane didn't want to come back. Or just make a wax figure of his decapitated head, like they did with Sean Bean, and dress up a headless doll in Stannis' armor.
"Coming soooooo close to avenging Renly, but ending up having to let Stannis go. It would explain why she still is so hostile towards Stannis' supporters. She lied to Davos and Mel because she wanted to mislead them and make them suffer." Didn't you read this part?
They could've used CGI, I agree. In fact I was hoping they would flay Stannis just to give us a big middle finger.
But I just think it was a staffing issue. He's dead, they just can't bring him back to prove it
0_O
Get.
Out.
Of.
Here.
Stannis will forever be the one true king.
But if the actor doesn't care about the show and is only in it for the money, then you deserve a horrible death.
Does it matter that Stephen Dillane doesn't care about the show as long as he preforms excellently?
Or she did "avenge" renly and kill stannis. Like she said she did
All these theories you have are just as baseless
Also this rightful king stuff is so dumb, whoever takes the thrones is the rightful king, I dont know why everyone bleats on about it. Robert Baratheon was never the rightful king when he took it
Alright, clearly you are all in with this Stannis is the rightful king business and everything else is a lie. I guess you wont be convinced he's dead unless you see his head on a pike.
Stephen Dillane is honest about it: it's a job after all, and you need to pay the bills and get money. It's a thing Natalie Dormer said too.
Better that than being hypocritical about the show.
And yes the actor don't care about the show.. Why should he praise it if he didn't like the experience? Being in the same room for 3 years playing almost all your scenes in it isn't the kind of role you would want to play, or understand.
Yet he was the perfect actor to play Stannis, seeing how both have similarities and are bond to do their "duties".
They are baseless only if you ignore the fact that the showrunners decided to not have Stannis death on screen, the fact that Brienne does not behave like she got her revenge, the possibly leaked picture of Stannis (I know that it might be fake), the Stannis-look-alike in the trailer fighting alongside some of Stannis' bannermen from the books, and Deepwood Motte being liberated, possibly by "a man" who is the Mannis in the books.
Maybe by the laws of those who just took the thrones, but not by the "laws of the land".
Because if there is a rigorous set of rules for who will govern the realm, there will be more peace and order.
Oh, but he was. Robert was a direct, trueborn descendant of Aegon Targaryen the fifth. Aerys Targaryen the second was mad and therefore not fit to rule. When Aerion Brightflame died, a great counsel was called, and it was decided that any children Aerion had would not get the throne, since they would inherit madness from their father. By that rule, any children of Aerys should not sit the throne either. Besides, Rhaegar dishonored and caused distress for House Stark and House Baratheon by abducting Lyanna, he was not a worthy protector of the realm. Rhaegar's children got killed by the Lannisters. Viserys was too young to rule and grew mad when he got older, and it's the same case with Dany (arguably). With all of them out of the way, the throne rightfully goes to the living heir of the last King who has a living heir. Which was Robert Baratheon. Here's the family tree:
I know whoever took over would need some royal link so the common people would "allow" it (the common people belve the power resides with the high power families). But really anyone with royal blood could be king/queen somehow. Succession doesnt happen how it should a lot of the time. What is described above is scribes or whatever legitimizing robert through bullshit connections. Really he fought and won the throne, there was no thoughts of lawful succession.
I will not be completely sure he is dead until I see his corpse, but I would be pretty sure he is dead if he does not appear during season six. We will just have to wait and see.
But if she did do it, why is she more bitter about it now, than before she got her revenge? It does not make any sense.
There was. The current king and (most of) his heirs were a danger to the realm. Westeros needed a new ruler and after the unfit and the dead Targaryens were ruled out, Robert would be next in line.
Ned Stark even said to Robert (when Robert said that it should have been Ned who became king) that Robert became king since he had the better claim.
Stephen Dillane doesn't play Stannis because he wants to; he does it because it is his right.
1- Yes, probably, but not on a degree that would save him from her, far from that.
4- I do not believe that she would have panicked on the first place. Yes I can clearly imagine what you described on your early comment, I understand you, I really do, but Great Brienne was there mate, Stannis was given, believing he is alive is not only speculation but also a really bad bet.
4.1- You are right. That is practically impossible. What does not necessarily implies that they did not deserted, even if someone spotted them, that of course would involve the soldiers machinations, secundary plots that I really miss, but that the show not always can work with.
4.2- Brienne's behavior was not weird mate, she knows for sure that The Red Woman and the Onion Knight were involved in Renly's murder. She does not trust them near Sansa, also, confronting them like that was her way to make them suffer as she did when Renly was killed. It was a warning to them.
4.3- Oh, hahahaha, I understand, I think they write just well, considering. I like the idea of him coming back, but this is GOT we are typing about, he is dead for sure, That is my final bet.
She would still want to kill him, but it would be harder for her to do so. It would make her more hesitant and perhaps she would feel a little guilty.
Well, there we disagree. Brienne has been prone to panic before, and if she had the choice between immediately running after a defenseless girl in danger, whom she swore to protect, or killing a sworn enemy who killed the king she used to love, but now is completely different from what she expected him to be, being humble, respectful, honest and showing guilt, regret, weakness and sorrow, I think it would be possible for her to choose the first alternative. But I would not bet on Stannis being alive either.
If there was a conspiracy among the soldiers to not warn Stannis about the mutiny and not wake him during that night, practically all of his soldier would have to be part of it. (All the people who woke up to the sound of thousands of men walking and thousands of horses neighing, and all the guards in the camp would either have intentionally not raised the alarm or have been threatened into silence immediately after they spot the deserters.) That would include most of the men who stayed behind with Stannis. It would be very weird if they helped a ton of people to betray a king who they are willing to die for themselves. It just doesn't make sense.
No she does not. It was always Sannis she mentioned she wanted to take revenge on, and only Stannis. She never mention that she suspected anyone else to be involved in the killing. If she did, she should have asked Stannis about it. He admitted that "I did" kill Renly, not "we did". And she claims she got her revenge. An eye for an eye, a death for a death, that should make them even. That should have made her cooler about Renly's death. Yet she is more bitter about it after she meets Stannis than before she meets him. That does not make any sense if she killed him.
You seriously do? D&D's bad writing skills is a topic on its own, but here is an analysis of their writing in season 5 if you are interested:
Probably, but I will see if he appears in season 6 before I make any final conclusion.
1- Look, mate, there really is a misunderstanding coming from you on this point. I can not explain that to you if you can not see it by yourself, you keep talking about how good of a man Stannis was on his final moments (for me, he was always humble, always a leader, always intelligent, always brave) when that actually does not have any impact on Brienne, but ok, that is your opinion, now, lets suppose it would be hard for Brienne to do it, she would have it done the same. You said it yourself, so, that does not even count as a point. She would have killed him, of course he was in guilt, in sorrow, he was defeated and had nothing left but to accep Brienne's swift justice.
4- I think it would be possible for her to choose both, if you know what I am saying.
4.1- I never mentioned which machinations those would be mate, we can only imagine, remember though, in GOT every single character have a story of his own, a meaning. That said, this is a totally open theme. Left for us to ponder.
4.2- I never said that Brienne would like to take vengeance on them, no, in that case she would have done it already. I only meant that she knows they were involved, please, have not you seen how she looked at them? Do you really believe that she do not know? Seeing Melisandre there and all? knowing that both served him? The reason she looked "bitter" to you is because she wanted to told them that right on their faces. Satisfaction mate, satisfaction...
4.3- They are very good, you know, considering the Show and all? This video could not even understand how the Sansa character works, like if someone has changed only by showing strength in a single scene.
4.4- Yes, I could do that to, but choosing a side is way more interesting, this is GOT after all, and "When you play the Game Of Thrones, you win or you die."
I don't think Stannis was a significantly better person in that scene compared to how he was before, but my point was that Brienne finally saw that Stannis was not the monster she thought he was. Benioff is not wrong on this, because he is a co-creator on the show. What he thinks happened is what happened. He will wright the show based on what he believes.
I see what you mean. First she kills Stannis, then she runs after Sansa. But it would not be possible to choose both of the alternatives I gave. I said "if she had the choice between IMMEDIATELY running after a defenseless girl in danger," and she will not run after Sansa immediately if she kills Stannis first. You may disagree on this, but I think that in the heat of the moment, when Pod has raised the alarm, told Brienne that he has spotted Sansa and insists that they get the horses and go after her, before they lose what may be their last chance to save her, Brienne may feel so compelled to rescue Sansa, and feel sufficient difficulty in killing Stannis, that she turns away from him and hurries after Sansa.
My point is that if Brienne has no time to lose and must make a decision, I don't think she would bother trying to summon the will to murder an unarmed, wounded, humble, respectful, honest and broken man who is showing guilt, regret, weakness and sorrow. She needed 12 seconds to summon her will to swing her sword at Stannis after he said "Go on, do your duty." It may be even more difficult to do it a second time, after she gets Sansa on her mind. When Jon tried to execute Ygritte, after failing to do it once, he could not summon the will to do it again and did let her go. I think something similar could happen to Brienne (given she is pressured by Pod to hurry after Sansa). But there we disagree.
Someone serving Stannis does not mean they were involved in Renly's killing. She may have suspected that Davos and Mel were involved, but as far as I am concerned, she has no reason for it. She may know that Mel is a sorceress who could have aided Stannis in the killing, but Stannis made it seem to Brienne like he did it alone. "He admitted it, you know." "I did." That is singular, not plural.
But even if she did suspect Davos and Mel, it does not make sense for Brienne to be that bitter. She was fairly calm when she met Stannis, whom she knew killed Renly. And she was much more bitter when she met Davos and Mel, whom she at worst only suspected was involved in the killing of Renly, a killing that was supposedly avenged. It does not make any sense what so ever that she would be more bitter in the second case.
So you are saying she really has moved on, and is fairly cool about Renly's death, and only seems bitter because she made a face? I don't buy that. She brought up Renly's death and talked about it as if it still troubled her. As Benioff said, it was somewhat difficult for Brienne to kill Stannis. The small amount of guilt for killing him would not make her as disrespectful as she was. If Stannis was dead, her desire for seeing Stannis-supporters suffer would go down, not up.
I can't stand the logical inconsistencies in the show. The books are MUCH better.
1- Alright... It can be a little tricky sometimes so... I will really try to explain that to you. First of all, this characters have essence, so just because we are talking about the Show, that does not mean that we have to accept the runners' OPINIONS as the absolute "truth". You have to notice that everything here is open to interpretations, that one being Benioff's. Even Martin can write a character and interpretate him in different forms in different occasions, there is no such a thing as "truth" only point of views, the only "truth" that does exists is the previously mentioned essence. So she saw he was not that bad, then what? "Ohhh, poor Stannis, I will spare you." There are 2 major errors on your analysis: First, he was exactly the same (sorry to break it up for you) and second, does not matter if it was hard or easy for her to kill him (what would be easy) she had already moved, remember? No yelling could stop that sword once it goes down. He not being what she expected is not a valid point to argue if you stop and think about it.
4- Agree when you say that we disagree on this one. The way I see it, there would not be "immediately" choice to be done.
4.1- So you think that she do not know... She knows that he did not kill Renly alone, she knows he was not a sorcerer. She knows Mel helped him, she knows Davos must have been there for sure, but you know what mate? That does not matter for her, her business were with Stannis and only Stannis.
4.2- No, it is not about a face. I meant that she only wanted Stannis ex-followers to felt the same way she did when Renly was Dead and there was nothing that she could do. Also, you can not know for sure how bitter she was while killing Stannis. She was calm on the surface, at least.
4.3- The books are perfect. The show is great. Perfect as for an adaptation.
Shit. This discussion is getting long. We should try to end it soon.
Well, Benioff's interpretation is still valid. She may have felt some difficulty in killing Stannis, but as I said earlier, it would not be enough to spare him on it's own. However, with other factors in play as well, I believe it may just be enough to make her leave him be.
Sorry to break it to you, but I have stated before that I don't think he was significantly different in that scene compared to other times. That was never the point. The point was that Brienne finally saw what Stannis really is, which was not the monster she imagined.
As I mentioned in my original post, the angle of her swing was very awkward, and likely to hit the tree instead of Stannis. Jon Snow also had started to swing his sword to execute Ygritte, but he ended up missing her neck.
I agree that it's not a valid point on it's own, but again; with other factors in play as well, it may suffice.
You think Brienne has time to do whatever she pleases before she runs to find Sansa? It's not like Sansa was waiting for her. Any moment they spend lingering with Stannis, is a moment Sansa could get lost or recaptured by the Boltons. If they want a good chance at finding her, instead of losing track of her forever, they would have to take action immediately.
For all Brienne knows, Stannis might have dabbled in sorcery. He does actually try to use bloodmagic himself when he names the usurpers and burns the leeches. Bloodmagic seems like something a layman can do. Stannis talks like he did it alone: "otherwise I shall destroy you." "I killed my brother." "I did." And considering that Melisandre is a big fraud, there probably was no shadow baby. That was just an illusion she showed Davos. What really happened, was that Mel gave Stannis a potion that enhances warging abilities. Stannis warged air, and his disembodied conscientiousness was the shadow monster. Stannis dreamed that he killed Renly, but it actually happened. Don't believe me? Preston Jacobs explains it better:
Brienne may have suspected it, but she would have no ideal how. Brienne could have asked Stannis all about how he killed Renly and who else is involved, but she was not concerned about that at all.
How on earth would she have gotten that idea?
Exactly, and she claimed that her business was done. Why would she get more bitter after they are "even"?
But bringing them the news of Stannis' death in a more respectful way would still make Davos and Mel mourn for Stannis. Why would she be more eager to see Stannis-supporters suffer and pour salt in the wound now, after they are "even"?
If she was as bitter as she was towards Davos and Mel, she would make Stannis suffer more than he did.
I find the show to be thrilling, but it lacks too much of what makes the books so great. I guess we just have to agree to disagree there as well.