If you try you can find an excuse to blame Kenny for just about everything bad that happens in both games. lol Well not everything, but a good chunk of it. He makes horrible decisions. lol
Theres all different theories on who or what is to be blamed.
My thread I made recently, highlighted a lot that points to Clementine being the one who was main culprit. Her negligence and betrayal of Lee and the group, to go out with the stranger is mainly the reason.
Clementine : She is the main reason why Lee got bit. Yes, the stranger told her to come outside because he had her parents. But, had she of listened to Lee, or at least told Lee before going outside, he wouldn't of been bitten.
Stranger : Obviously because he was the one who lured Clementine out of the house, but as I said, Clementine had many ways to prevent Lee from getting bit.
Himself : Lee's unawareness was his downfall in the street scene. Not keeping his guard up and instead, too busy trying to find Clementine, he left himself open to a walker biting him.
Omid : He is partially to blame, because had he not hurt his leg, the group wouldn't of had to take shelter in the mansion.
Walker : Walker obviously bit Lee, but there was a whole lot more that caused the walker to bite Lee.
Clementine and Stranger share the blame. This topic has come up before and I don't think Kenny or/and Lee can be blamed for "stealing" from the Stranger's car. There was logic and higher chances of survival in taking the food. There was a good chance that group members could starve to death or that someone could die on a desperate supply run if they had left the food there. Also the fact that only a saint would just leave the food there if him and his group were starving.
Clementine and Stranger share the blame. This topic has come up before and I don't think Kenny or/and Lee can be blamed for "stealing" from … morethe Stranger's car. There was logic and higher chances of survival in taking the food. There was a good chance that group members could starve to death or that someone could die on a desperate supply run if they had left the food there. Also the fact that only a saint would just leave the food there if him and his group were starving.
Omid : He is partially to blame, because had he not hurt his leg, the group wouldn't of had to take shelter in the mansion.
That I disagree with. Lee, the walker, Clementine and the stranger did in fact contribute to the death taking place, not set up the situation. Because, if we decide to include Omid, we also have to include a list of barely causative people who just happened to move a finger.
Christa decided to go into the backyard in the first place.
Molly, because she is partly responsible for Lee eventually making it back to the mansion. If he hadn't arrived there, his canon death wouldn't have taken place.
Vernon is also partially responsible for Lee finding his way back.
Kenny, because the group wouldn't have traveled to Savannah if he had not fixed the RV.
The Save-Lots bandits, since they were the reason the group fled the Motor Inn.
*Lilly**, given that she was the one who prevented the group from being killed by the bandits. If Lee was shot, he wouldn't have been able to reach Savannah to be bitten.
Theres all different theories on who or what is to be blamed.
My thread I made recently, highlighted a lot that points to Clementine being … morethe one who was main culprit. Her negligence and betrayal of Lee and the group, to go out with the stranger is mainly the reason.
* Clementine : She is the main reason why Lee got bit. Yes, the stranger told her to come outside because he had her parents. But, had she of listened to Lee, or at least told Lee before going outside, he wouldn't of been bitten.
* Stranger : Obviously because he was the one who lured Clementine out of the house, but as I said, Clementine had many ways to prevent Lee from getting bit.
* Himself : Lee's unawareness was his downfall in the street scene. Not keeping his guard up and instead, too busy trying to find Clementine, he left himself open to a walker biting him.
* Omid : He is partially to blame, because had he not hurt his leg, the group wouldn't of had to take s… [view original content]
Anyone who took anything from the station wagon shares the blame IMO. And the Stranger and Clem as well.
Really it was just a series of unfortunate events. After Lee was bit, it was just a matter of time. He knew it, and only wanted to make sure Clem would be okay before he went. He didn't seem to have any blame or anger about it at all, let alone for anyone in particular. So, why should we?
Really? It was Stealing not 'stealing'. Just because someone is out of eyeshot doesn't mean they are out of the picture. And like the stranger said, what they did cost the stranger his family. Which in turn put him on his path to get revenge from the group.
It's a slippery slope, when you start thinking that you can just take what you want and damn the consequences. What will be justifiable next time someone is starving? Will they start hunting people like the farmers? I think that is the point of that whole storyline. And it doesn't take a saint to have a conscience, they could have taken a single box of crackers or whatever to feed their kids and left the rest. Hell, they could've waited around for a while to see if anyone came back, cuz obviously the Stranger did.
Clementine and Stranger share the blame. This topic has come up before and I don't think Kenny or/and Lee can be blamed for "stealing" from … morethe Stranger's car. There was logic and higher chances of survival in taking the food. There was a good chance that group members could starve to death or that someone could die on a desperate supply run if they had left the food there. Also the fact that only a saint would just leave the food there if him and his group were starving.
Not really unfortunate set of events either, in my opinion.
This happens all the time in the life of any specific person living in any given city, town, or village. For example, you were walking, doing your thing when you accidentally collided with somebody else. Maybe the other person was late because they argued with their spouse, and maybe it was over the price of some vegetables that the spouse bought. Then, the very owner of the shop where the spouse of the person who you collided with bought would be indirectly responsible of you colliding with the person.
It is just that this occurs so often, and there are so many people involved, and we also don't have any knowledge about all of this string background, that we never really stop and think about it. If you can, try to be conscious about this tomorrow, and I assure you that you will notice at least five different cases.
Anyone who took anything from the station wagon shares the blame IMO. And the Stranger and Clem as well.
Really it was just a series of u… morenfortunate events. After Lee was bit, it was just a matter of time. He knew it, and only wanted to make sure Clem would be okay before he went. He didn't seem to have any blame or anger about it at all, let alone for anyone in particular. So, why should we?
Not really unfortunate set of events either, in my opinion.
This happens all the time in the life of any specific person living in any gi… moreven city, town, or village. For example, you were walking, doing your thing when you accidentally collided with somebody else. Maybe the other person was late because they argued with their spouse, and maybe it was over the price of some vegetables that the spouse bought. Then, the very owner of the shop where the spouse of the person who you collided with bought would be indirectly responsible of you colliding with the person.
It is just that this occurs so often, and there are so many people involved, and we also don't have any knowledge about all of this string background, that we never really stop and think about it. If you can, try to be conscious about this tomorrow, and I assure you that you will notice at least five different cases.
From what I understand, the butterfly effect, a branch of chaos theory, suggests that narrow, small-scale triggers can set up the situation for a broad, large-scale, unpredictable outcome to take place, usually in a remote location. The common example of this is how a small butterfly flapping its wings can end up provoking a hurricane in a different location, weeks later. Life Is Strange, much?
Contrary to the butterfly effect, the domino effect suggests that a small-scale trigger can wind up with a small-scale, predictable outcome, often in the same location and in a considerably shorter time-range. As you might guess, the example for this is when people place dominoes in a row and push the first one, in a way that it pushes the next over and over.
The tomato market example would adhere to domino theory as far as we know, since it only tirggered that a couple argued and that a person collided with you, and that the person was also late to work.
Unless you fell on the ground and ruined your favorite jacket, in which case, that sucks.
I think about things like this all the time. About what had to happen for the following to even be possible... And on and on.
There is a term for it, but it's evading me right now. Hence the series of unfortunate events. Lol
You're pretty much going through each detail, as if every action a player made contributed to Lee being bitten.
Christa - Do you mean going into the backyard at the start of the episode? Why do you think she did that? Because of OMID being injured and not being able run like the rest of the group, had he not been injured, they wouldn't of had to take cover so quickly.
Molly - Ummm, if Molly hadn't of been there, Lee would've got killed in the alley or if that didn't take place, Lee and Kenny would've went back to the mansion after failing to get any of the boats working.
Vernon - Again, If Vernon wasn't around, then Lee would've either found his own way back, or would've got lost in the sewers.
Kenny - Clementine wanted to go to Savannah. And remember, that the game pretty much makes you want to go there as well, for her. And besides, the group would've had to have left anyway given the bandits raiding the camp, so who knows where they would've went. You should've blamed the train being derailed and blocking the RV from going any further.
Bandits - That I agree with you, but not in terms of leading to Lee getting bit. They could've went anywhere. Not just Savannah, and remember, Clementine wanted to go there to find her parents.
Lily - You might as well say had Andy St John killed Lee, it would never of happened. Again, your argument is flawed because the game takes us to Savannah, who knows where they would've ended up. So many different possibilities like :
If the drug store didn't get sieged.
The Motor Inn not falling.
The dairy actually being decent people.
Lily not shooting Carley.
The RV not working.
The Train not blocking the way for the RV.
Not being able to get the tanker down.
All different theories.
But my list is the ones who are MANILY to blame.
And like I said on my thread. Had Clementine not went out there and listened to Lee and Christa or even woke Lee up to tell him that the stranger was outside claiming to have her parents, he wouldn't of went outside, put his guard down, and got bitten.
Put in as many people to "blame" as you want, Clementine is the main source to it all.
Omid : He is partially to blame, because had he not hurt his leg, the group wouldn't of had to take shelter in the mansion.
That I d… moreisagree with. Lee, the walker, Clementine and the stranger did in fact contribute to the death taking place, not set up the situation. Because, if we decide to include Omid, we also have to include a list of barely causative people who just happened to move a finger.
* Christa decided to go into the backyard in the first place.
* Molly, because she is partly responsible for Lee eventually making it back to the mansion. If he hadn't arrived there, his canon death wouldn't have taken place.
* Vernon is also partially responsible for Lee finding his way back.
* Kenny, because the group wouldn't have traveled to Savannah if he had not fixed the RV.
* The Save-Lots bandits, since they were the reason the group fled the Motor Inn.
* *Lilly**, given that she was the one who prevented the grou… [view original content]
That's not how it works, @Mrwalto69. You've chosen to partly responsabilize Omid for Lee's death, and that is okay, even if I don't agree, but if you decide to go that route, you can't leave every other contributor out of responsibility. Lee, the walker, Clem and the stranger all directly affected the way the scenario of getting bit happened, and I only put the responsibility on them; Omid and the others that I have mentioned took part in setting up the situation in a way that the scenario happened. It's the domino effect, except some dominoes—characters—are much more direct than others to the death.
Christa - Do you mean going into the backyard at the start of the episode? Why do you think she did that? Because of OMID being injured and not being able run like the rest of the group, had he not been injured, they wouldn't of had to take cover so quickly.
Yes, Omid was the one injured, but Christa made the decision to go into that particular mansion.
Molly - Ummm, if Molly hadn't of been there, Lee would've got killed in the alley or if that didn't take place, Lee and Kenny would've went back to the mansion after failing to get any of the boats working.
I know that, and that is my point. If Molly hadn't saved Clementine and Kenny and instead took off, Lee wouldn't have been able to open the entrance to the sewers, since he wouldn't have Hilda. Molly is a very indirect factor on Lee's death—but you decided to go there, not me.
Vernon - Again, If Vernon wasn't around, then Lee would've either found his own way back, or would've got lost in the sewers.
And the group wouldn't have gone to Crawford, since Vernon and Brie are the ones holding up the plan. Going to Crawford is what triggers Clementine feeling down in the first place. But you decided to go to very indirect contributions.
Kenny - Clementine wanted to go to Savannah. And remember, that the game pretty much makes you want to go there as well, for her. And besides, the group would've had to have left anyway given the bandits raiding the camp, so who knows where they would've went. You should've blamed the train being derailed and blocking the RV from going any further.
I am a saying that Kenny fixed the RV. Yes, he did. If he had not, the group wouldn't have been able to flee the Motor Inn, and possibly died right there, either to bandits or walkers. Lee can't get bitten in the scenario that he currently does if he is dead.
Bandits - That I agree with you, but not in terms of leading to Lee getting bit. They could've went anywhere. Not just Savannah, and remember, Clementine wanted to go there to find her parents.
The bandits were what prompted the group to leave. The latter didn't seem to plan to take off anytime in the near future. That also plays a role in Lee getting bit in the current canon.
Lily - You might as well say had Andy St John killed Lee, it would never of happened. Again, your argument is flawed because the game takes us to Savannah, who knows where they would've ended up.
The game can't take us to Savannah as dead corpses with bullets in their heads. Lilly prevented the Motor Inn group members. That unarguably makes it possible for Lee to get bit.
Please do not take it as if I am blaming said and said person; I am just pointing out that there are lots of other people besides Omid who you can responsabilize for Lee getting bit. I'm not pulling this out of a hat, either.
You're pretty much going through each detail, as if every action a player made contributed to Lee being bitten.
* Christa - Do you mean… more going into the backyard at the start of the episode? Why do you think she did that? Because of OMID being injured and not being able run like the rest of the group, had he not been injured, they wouldn't of had to take cover so quickly.
* Molly - Ummm, if Molly hadn't of been there, Lee would've got killed in the alley or if that didn't take place, Lee and Kenny would've went back to the mansion after failing to get any of the boats working.
* Vernon - Again, If Vernon wasn't around, then Lee would've either found his own way back, or would've got lost in the sewers.
* Kenny - Clementine wanted to go to Savannah. And remember, that the game pretty much makes you want to go there as well, for her. And besides, the group would've had to have left anyway given the bandits raiding the camp, so who knows w… [view original content]
Omid, while not responsible as Clementine or the Stranger, is in the middle of it all. The fact is that the others you mentioned all had different outcomes in their decisions i.e you said that Vernon was to blame because he helped Lee back to the sewers which meant he wounded back to the house. But the thing is, that Lee would've either got lost in the sewer, or found his way out. So really, the Vernon theory and the others are flawed because it wouldn't of made a difference, where as Omid, if he wasn't injured, they wouldn't of had to retreat to the nearest place they could find, as it's easy to outrun walkers.
I'm not saying Christa didn't make the decision, I'm saying why DID she make the decision? Because of Omid. Remember earlier on in the episode about how much she was complaining about how Omid needed to rest instead of walking?
We are talking about Lee being bit. Not about his canon deaths in the game. You said his cannon death wouldn't of happened. I don't know what you are meaning by that but it's suppose to be about him getting bit and all i said was that If Molly wasn't there, Lee and Kenny would've went back to the Mansion which means he would've been bit, so in reality, even if Molly wasn't there, Lee would've still got bit by going back.
I'm pretty sure that Lee can suggest Crawford, and if i remember correctly, Vernon is originally against it. So it's not like he wanted to do it. They all made the plan up, Brie was there because she knew the area, and Vernon was there because he was a doctor, the rest all had their own roles. Clementine was to "watch Ben". Ben was suppose to try and get into the armoury, Christa was with Vernon trying to get medicine, Kenny was with Brie getting Fuel, Lee was with Molly getting a battery. They all had their own plan and roles. If you have that discussion with her in the control room, she is very positive if you tell her there is hope. It's only when she doesn't find her parents at the end, and that is what causes Lee to be bit. Her believing a stranger over the group.
But we don't know that do we? How do we know they wouldn't of escaped? And lets say they died, yes, Lee wouldn't of been bitten later on, but if they did, where do you think they would want to go?
No, but they were working their way to going there, they were holding up in motel because it was their base. Clementine would've eventually wanted to go to Savannah because her whole goal was to find her parents. And remember, they had the argument that it was too cold to survive the winter there. So yes, they were well some were wanting to leave, but as we have touched on, didn't have a safe way to leave yet with the RV not working.
If that was the case, there would be no game. It takes us there because that is how the story unfolds. You can be the meanest guy to Clementine, and Lee will still want to help her. And to your response about Lily being the culprit, I'm pretty sure that Lee was the one who protected himself mostly through the whole fight, all Lily did was shoot one of the bandits which could've went both ways, the bandits could've killed everyone or did what they did and that was run and call for back up. So really, there is no right or wrong.
Honestly, you're going to believe what you want to believe, and i am going to do the same, so is any winner going to come out of this?
That's not how it works, @Mrwalto69. You've chosen to partly responsabilize Omid for Lee's death, and that is okay, even if I don't agree, b… moreut if you decide to go that route, you can't leave every other contributor out of responsibility. Lee, the walker, Clem and the stranger all directly affected the way the scenario of getting bit happened, and I only put the responsibility on them; Omid and the others that I have mentioned took part in setting up the situation in a way that the scenario happened. It's the domino effect, except some dominoes—characters—are much more direct than others to the death.
Christa - Do you mean going into the backyard at the start of the episode? Why do you think she did that? Because of OMID being injured and not being able run like the rest of the group, had he not been injured, they wouldn't of had to take cover so quickly.
Yes, Omid was the one injured, but Christa made the decision to go into tha… [view original content]
Honestly, you're going to believe what you want to believe, and i am going to do the same, so is any winner going to come out of this?
It doesn't need to be that way. I am here writing down my thoughts in an attempt to show mainly you, and others reading too, my thoughts on why more people than the five aforementioned are responsible of Lee's death in different ways. If you are persuasive and convince me otherwise, I will adopt your belief. However, I ask for the same courtesy. If you are not aiming to convince me nor others, nor you are interested on hearing what I have to say, please skip my comment and neither of us will waste our time.
Also, I will ask you again not to interpretate it as if I am saying that the characters are to blame, nor as if I'm saying that they acted that way to harm Lee. I am saying that they are indirectly responsible—they unknowingly conditioned the situation in a way that it was possible for Lee to foolishly get bitten.
Without further due…
I do understand that Christa made her decision based on Omid's current health state, and a wounded leg is problematic while exploring an overrun Savannah. However, since Christa made the decision to go into the mansion, why don't you consider both, Omid and Christa, indirectly responsible? I am honestly interested on having a different insight to this matter, since you have stated it recurrently, while not really explaining it.
By canon death, I am talking about the death that happens in the game no matter what—Lee dying due to the bite, or due to blood loss and fatigue. Non-canon deaths are the deaths that take place if you fail a quick-time
event.
I am saying that Lee couldn't have made it back to the mansion if Molly hadn't helped them, since Kenny, Lee and Clementine were cornered in the alleyway, whereas Molly had climbed onto a fire exit and reached safety. Clementine made her puppy eyes and Molly decided to help, but the only reason Lee got out of there was because Molly gave him Hilda. If that hadn't happened, Lee would have been devoured, and his canon death wouldn't have taken place.
Where I was getting at is that the group only seriously considers going to Crawford because they have encountered a group of survivors who fled the community, and these people knew their way in and out. At that point, Molly hadn't confessed about being a former inhabitant, and she only does so if confronted by Lee after he finds the failed sex tape, so I seriously doubt that she would let Lee, Christa and the others know voluntarily. Therefore, it is unlikely that they would've so much as considered going into the community, given that they knew virtually nothing about it.
Related to the last point, Clementine is upset the first time that she hides because Lee was lost to walkers in the alley, although she is visibly happy when she learns that Lee is back. The second time she hides and snuggles out of the house is because she has learned that her parents were not in Crawfodd, and the reason why the stranger's call was so effective is because of this. It was perfectly timed. If you stop Clementine from knowing that Crawford is overrun, the stranger's call loses its effectiveness.
We know that they wouldn't have been able to escape without the RV because the group barely managed to get out of the motel by boarding into it and taking off, with Lilly even barely making it. The walkers were a lot, and when you observe the motel from Lilly's point of view you can see that there are still some bandits shooting rifles from the woods. There is no way that the crew would've survived that. Props to Kenny, though!
You have convinced me on that. It is likely that the group would've splat up, with Kenny and his family going to Savannah, and Lilly staying. I don't feel like we know enough of what Lee, Clementine, Carley and Ben thought to make a prediction. However, I believe that if the bandits hadn't attacked, Katjaa would've been reluctant to leave Lilly and others behind. We know how compassionate she is. That would've made up for some interesting conflict.
I am not talking from a video game point of view. I am talking from a world-within-the-video-game point of view. After Lilly shoots the bandit leader—let's call him Jake—Linda and the others were seen doubtful and anxious over what to do, and that is when Katjaa, Kenny, Clem, Duck and Ben run for cover, while Carley or Doug takes Jake's pistol and shoot Linda. Besides, it was shown that Lee has a non-canon death if he fails to convince Jake that negotiation is convenient for the bandits, and Lee would only have so much things to say before he ran out of options. In the end, we see that Lilly shooting Jake worked relatively well for the group.
Honestly, you're going to believe what you want to believe, and i am going to do the same, so is any winner going to come out of this?
It doesn't need to be that way. I am writing here in an attempt to show mainly you, and others reading too, my thoughts on why more people than the five aforementioned are responsible of Lee's death in different ways. If you are persuasive and convince me otherwise, I will adopt your belief. However, I ask for the same courtesy. If you are not aiming to convince me nor others, nor you are interested on hearing what I have to say, please skip my comment and neither of us will waste our time.
Also, I will ask you again not to interpretate it as if I am saying that the characters are to blame, nor as if I'm saying that they acted that way to harm Lee. I am saying that they are indirectly responsible—they unknowingly conditioned the situation in a way that it was possible for Lee to foolishly get bitten.
Without further due…
I do understand that Christa made her decision based on Omid's current health state, and a wounded leg is problematic while exploring an overrun Savannah. However, since Christa made the decision to go into the mansion, why don't you consider both, Omid and Christa, indirectly responsible? I am honestly interested on having a different insight to this matter, since you have stated it recurrently, while not really explaining it.
By canon death, I am talking about the death that happens in the game no matter what—Lee dying due to the bite, or due to blood loss and fatigue. Non-canon deaths are the deaths that take place if you fail a quick-time
event.
I am saying that Lee couldn't have made it back to the mansion if Molly hadn't helped them, since Kenny, Lee and Clementine were cornered in the alleyway, whereas Molly had climbed onto a fire exit and reached safety. Clementine made her puppy eyes and Molly decided to help, but the only reason Lee got out of there was because Molly gave him Hilda. If that hadn't happened, Lee would have been devoured, and his canon death wouldn't have taken place.
Where I was getting at is that the group only seriously considers going to Crawford because they have encountered a group of survivors who fled the community, and these people knew their way in and out. At that point, Molly hadn't confessed about being a former inhabitant, and she only does so if confronted by Lee after he finds the failed sex tape, so I seriously doubt that she would let Lee, Christa and the others know voluntarily. Therefore, it is unlikely that they would've so much as considered going into the community, given that they knew virtually nothing about it.
Related to the last point, Clementine is upset the first time that she hides because Lee was lost to walkers in the alley, although she is visibly happy when she learns that Lee is back. The second time she hides and snuggles out of the house is because she has learned that her parents were not in Crawfodd, and the reason why the stranger's call was so effective is because of this. It was perfectly timed. If you stop Clementine from knowing that Crawford is overrun, the stranger's call loses its effectiveness.
We know that they wouldn't have been able to escape without the RV because the group barely managed to get out of the motel by boarding into it and taking off, with Lilly even barely making it. The walkers were a lot, and when you observe the motel from Lilly's point of view you can see that there are still some bandits shooting rifles from the woods. There is no way that the crew would've survived that. Props to Kenny, though!
You have convinced me on that. It is likely that the group would've splat up, with Kenny and his family going to Savannah, and Lilly staying. I don't feel like we know enough of what Lee, Clementine, Carley and Ben thought to make a prediction. However, I believe that if the bandits hadn't attacked, Katjaa would've been reluctant to leave Lilly and others behind. We know how compassionate she is. That would've made up for some interesting conflict.
I am not talking from a video game point of view. I am talking from a world-within-the-video-game point of view. After Lilly shoots the bandit leader—let's call him Jake—Linda and the others were seen doubtful and anxious over what to do, and that is when Katjaa, Kenny, Clem, Duck and Ben run for cover, while Carley or Doug takes Jake's pistol and shoot Linda. Besides, it was shown that Lee has a non-canon death if he fails to convince Jake that negotiation is convenient for the bandits, and Lee would only have so much things to say before he ran out of options. In the end, we see that Lilly shooting Jake worked relatively well for the group.
Omid, while not responsible as Clementine or the Stranger, is in the middle of it all. The fact is that the others you mentioned all had dif… moreferent outcomes in their decisions i.e you said that Vernon was to blame because he helped Lee back to the sewers which meant he wounded back to the house. But the thing is, that Lee would've either got lost in the sewer, or found his way out. So really, the Vernon theory and the others are flawed because it wouldn't of made a difference, where as Omid, if he wasn't injured, they wouldn't of had to retreat to the nearest place they could find, as it's easy to outrun walkers.
* I'm not saying Christa didn't make the decision, I'm saying why DID she make the decision? Because of Omid. Remember earlier on in the episode about how much she was complaining about how Omid needed to rest instead of walking?
* We are talking about Lee being bit. Not about his canon deaths in the game. You said his cannon de… [view original content]
Either butterfly effect or domino effect.
From what I understand, the butterfly effect, a branch of chaos theory, suggests that narrow, s… moremall-scale triggers can set up the situation for a broad, large-scale, unpredictable outcome to take place, usually in a remote location. The common example of this is how a small butterfly flapping its wings can end up provoking a hurricane in a different location, weeks later. Life Is Strange, much?
Contrary to the butterfly effect, the domino effect suggests that a small-scale trigger can wind up with a small-scale, predictable outcome, often in the same location and in a considerably shorter time-range. As you might guess, the example for this is when people place dominoes in a row and push the first one, in a way that it pushes the next over and over.
The tomato market example would adhere to domino theory as far as we know, since it only tirggered that a couple argued and that a person collide… [view original content]
The way you are speaking, it is if you want to be the last person to comment. Like its a competition. Sorry dude, that's just the vibe I'm getting.
And like I keep saying, you need to understand that a: the game pans itself in that direction and b: what you have described contradicts most of what you say.
christa made the choice, but she would never of made the choice, had omid not been injured. Ask yourself why she did it. I don't blame her because omid was the reason why she went to the mansion. Do you think they would've had to have founded the nearest hide out if omid was able to run freely on both legs?
youre avoiding the statement. Had Molly not been there, Kenny and lee would've went back to the mansion after failing to find a boat that wasn't stripped. Hence even without Molly. Lee would still go back to the mansion where he got bit.
ah I see what you mean now. Well given how long they took to boost clementine and Kenny up, plus the dialogue with Molly, it is fair to say that the far end of the alley way was passable, seeing how lee attempts to get up, but can't. I would say they would've had enough time to escape before the other end got trapped.
you originally said Brie and vernon wanted to go because of a plan they had. Like I mentioned, all the others had a plan and all had reasons to go there. Molly wanted to get revenge on the walker Logan that exposed her sick sister. Kenny, Lee and clementine find out a lot about the community by talking to Molly, the only ones who don't know are christa and Ben.
Actually, clementine is hiding in with the boat that the group hadn't found yet possibly to surprise lee that they have a boat, remember, lee yells out from the sewer that he will meet clementine and the group back at the mansion and seeing how clementine believed a guy she had never meet, she would no doubt believe lee. She could've woken lee up when the stranger came calling. You can tell her on the train that her parents are dead, and she starts crying, yet still likes lee after, she couldve easily told lee.
we are going to have to disagree. Lee was more then capable of handling himself, and with that Rv being a good defence, he could've held out, and if you look closely, where lily stays, I can see back exits as well indicating back way exits.
the only thing I heard katjaa say was that she hated the idea of everyone having to carry guns. I think she cared for everyone, but if she knew they had to use them for bandits, I think she'd wanna leave, for duck and clementines safety. Clementine would've eventually wanted to go to Savannah because that's where her parents were.
Yes it did, it got them saved in the gameplay. There are so many different theories, the other two bandits could've easily killed lee and the group held hostage, Lee is shot because he keeps being aggressive and that is a stupid way of doing it, like when you have to try and reason with Brenda when she holds katjaa hostage. Saying put the gun down bitch isn't exactly going to keep her calm lol.
Honestly, you're going to believe what you want to believe, and i am going to do the same, so is any winner going to come out of this?
… more
It doesn't need to be that way. I am writing here in an attempt to show mainly you, and others reading too, my thoughts on why more people than the five aforementioned are responsible of Lee's death in different ways. If you are persuasive and convince me otherwise, I will adopt your belief. However, I ask for the same courtesy. If you are not aiming to convince me nor others, nor you are interested on hearing what I have to say, please skip my comment and neither of us will waste our time.
Also, I will ask you again not to interpretate it as if I am saying that the characters are to blame, nor as if I'm saying that they acted that way to harm Lee. I am saying that they are indirectly responsible—they unknowingly conditioned the situation in a way that it was possible for Lee to foolishly get bitten… [view original content]
Comments
Eh, he was too careless but that Zombie did a good job being silent lol
No one's fault. He'd probably die another way by the writers if Clementine didn't get kidnapped so meh.
Telltale writers.
IF GOD DAMN OMID DIDN'T SHOW UP WITH HIS "HI I'M OMID" BULLSHIT THEN NONE OF THIS WOULD OF HAPPENED!
Seriously though, I see a ton of people pull the blame on everyone (especially Clementine) when it's no one's fault that he died. Shit just happens.
Hey guys, you know what?
I miss Lee.
T__T
Clementine is the one to blame
TTG
If you try you can find an excuse to blame Kenny for just about everything bad that happens in both games. lol Well not everything, but a good chunk of it. He makes horrible decisions. lol
The senator that slept with his wife.
You.
Keemstar
The wife that slept with his senator.
Theres all different theories on who or what is to be blamed.
My thread I made recently, highlighted a lot that points to Clementine being the one who was main culprit. Her negligence and betrayal of Lee and the group, to go out with the stranger is mainly the reason.
Wow ok I see someone got banned and deserved it....let's just admit that TTG is to blame
The police officer from the beginning of Season 1. WORST COP DRIVER EVER!!!
Yeah he sorta set this whole gory story going.
Clementine and Stranger share the blame. This topic has come up before and I don't think Kenny or/and Lee can be blamed for "stealing" from the Stranger's car. There was logic and higher chances of survival in taking the food. There was a good chance that group members could starve to death or that someone could die on a desperate supply run if they had left the food there. Also the fact that only a saint would just leave the food there if him and his group were starving.
Fuck the police. Fuck Wall Street.
I just do not think we can blame a 9 year old who just wants her mom and dad.
This guy
I think we should blame her parents for not teaching Clem about Stranger Danger.
Is that Sam Pepper? Get the Pepper spray!
You can make it sound like everyone was to blame honestly.
That I disagree with. Lee, the walker, Clementine and the stranger did in fact contribute to the death taking place, not set up the situation. Because, if we decide to include Omid, we also have to include a list of barely causative people who just happened to move a finger.
Christa decided to go into the backyard in the first place.
Molly, because she is partly responsible for Lee eventually making it back to the mansion. If he hadn't arrived there, his canon death wouldn't have taken place.
Vernon is also partially responsible for Lee finding his way back.
Kenny, because the group wouldn't have traveled to Savannah if he had not fixed the RV.
The Save-Lots bandits, since they were the reason the group fled the Motor Inn.
*Lilly**, given that she was the one who prevented the group from being killed by the bandits. If Lee was shot, he wouldn't have been able to reach Savannah to be bitten.
Anyone who took anything from the station wagon shares the blame IMO. And the Stranger and Clem as well.
Really it was just a series of unfortunate events. After Lee was bit, it was just a matter of time. He knew it, and only wanted to make sure Clem would be okay before he went. He didn't seem to have any blame or anger about it at all, let alone for anyone in particular. So, why should we?
I am........ so sorry for this
Really? It was Stealing not 'stealing'. Just because someone is out of eyeshot doesn't mean they are out of the picture. And like the stranger said, what they did cost the stranger his family. Which in turn put him on his path to get revenge from the group.
It's a slippery slope, when you start thinking that you can just take what you want and damn the consequences. What will be justifiable next time someone is starving? Will they start hunting people like the farmers? I think that is the point of that whole storyline. And it doesn't take a saint to have a conscience, they could have taken a single box of crackers or whatever to feed their kids and left the rest. Hell, they could've waited around for a while to see if anyone came back, cuz obviously the Stranger did.
Not really unfortunate set of events either, in my opinion.
This happens all the time in the life of any specific person living in any given city, town, or village. For example, you were walking, doing your thing when you accidentally collided with somebody else. Maybe the other person was late because they argued with their spouse, and maybe it was over the price of some vegetables that the spouse bought. Then, the very owner of the shop where the spouse of the person who you collided with bought would be indirectly responsible of you colliding with the person.
It is just that this occurs so often, and there are so many people involved, and we also don't have any knowledge about all of this string background, that we never really stop and think about it. If you can, try to be conscious about this tomorrow, and I assure you that you will notice at least five different cases.
I think about things like this all the time. About what had to happen for the following to even be possible... And on and on.
There is a term for it, but it's evading me right now. Hence the series of unfortunate events. Lol
Either butterfly effect or domino effect.
From what I understand, the butterfly effect, a branch of chaos theory, suggests that narrow, small-scale triggers can set up the situation for a broad, large-scale, unpredictable outcome to take place, usually in a remote location. The common example of this is how a small butterfly flapping its wings can end up provoking a hurricane in a different location, weeks later. Life Is Strange, much?
Contrary to the butterfly effect, the domino effect suggests that a small-scale trigger can wind up with a small-scale, predictable outcome, often in the same location and in a considerably shorter time-range. As you might guess, the example for this is when people place dominoes in a row and push the first one, in a way that it pushes the next over and over.
The tomato market example would adhere to domino theory as far as we know, since it only tirggered that a couple argued and that a person collided with you, and that the person was also late to work.
Unless you fell on the ground and ruined your favorite jacket, in which case, that sucks.
You're pretty much going through each detail, as if every action a player made contributed to Lee being bitten.
All different theories.
But my list is the ones who are MANILY to blame.
And like I said on my thread. Had Clementine not went out there and listened to Lee and Christa or even woke Lee up to tell him that the stranger was outside claiming to have her parents, he wouldn't of went outside, put his guard down, and got bitten.
Put in as many people to "blame" as you want, Clementine is the main source to it all.
That's not how it works, @Mrwalto69. You've chosen to partly responsabilize Omid for Lee's death, and that is okay, even if I don't agree, but if you decide to go that route, you can't leave every other contributor out of responsibility. Lee, the walker, Clem and the stranger all directly affected the way the scenario of getting bit happened, and I only put the responsibility on them; Omid and the others that I have mentioned took part in setting up the situation in a way that the scenario happened. It's the domino effect, except some dominoes—characters—are much more direct than others to the death.
Yes, Omid was the one injured, but Christa made the decision to go into that particular mansion.
I know that, and that is my point. If Molly hadn't saved Clementine and Kenny and instead took off, Lee wouldn't have been able to open the entrance to the sewers, since he wouldn't have Hilda. Molly is a very indirect factor on Lee's death—but you decided to go there, not me.
And the group wouldn't have gone to Crawford, since Vernon and Brie are the ones holding up the plan. Going to Crawford is what triggers Clementine feeling down in the first place. But you decided to go to very indirect contributions.
I am a saying that Kenny fixed the RV. Yes, he did. If he had not, the group wouldn't have been able to flee the Motor Inn, and possibly died right there, either to bandits or walkers. Lee can't get bitten in the scenario that he currently does if he is dead.
The bandits were what prompted the group to leave. The latter didn't seem to plan to take off anytime in the near future. That also plays a role in Lee getting bit in the current canon.
The game can't take us to Savannah as dead corpses with bullets in their heads. Lilly prevented the Motor Inn group members. That unarguably makes it possible for Lee to get bit.
Please do not take it as if I am blaming said and said person; I am just pointing out that there are lots of other people besides Omid who you can responsabilize for Lee getting bit. I'm not pulling this out of a hat, either.
Ben. Instead of being on watch he let the stranger sneak in take Clementine and set up the trap for Lee's death. Motherfucker Ben lol
Omid, while not responsible as Clementine or the Stranger, is in the middle of it all. The fact is that the others you mentioned all had different outcomes in their decisions i.e you said that Vernon was to blame because he helped Lee back to the sewers which meant he wounded back to the house. But the thing is, that Lee would've either got lost in the sewer, or found his way out. So really, the Vernon theory and the others are flawed because it wouldn't of made a difference, where as Omid, if he wasn't injured, they wouldn't of had to retreat to the nearest place they could find, as it's easy to outrun walkers.
It doesn't need to be that way. I am here writing down my thoughts in an attempt to show mainly you, and others reading too, my thoughts on why more people than the five aforementioned are responsible of Lee's death in different ways. If you are persuasive and convince me otherwise, I will adopt your belief. However, I ask for the same courtesy. If you are not aiming to convince me nor others, nor you are interested on hearing what I have to say, please skip my comment and neither of us will waste our time.
Also, I will ask you again not to interpretate it as if I am saying that the characters are to blame, nor as if I'm saying that they acted that way to harm Lee. I am saying that they are indirectly responsible—they unknowingly conditioned the situation in a way that it was possible for Lee to foolishly get bitten.
Without further due…
I do understand that Christa made her decision based on Omid's current health state, and a wounded leg is problematic while exploring an overrun Savannah. However, since Christa made the decision to go into the mansion, why don't you consider both, Omid and Christa, indirectly responsible? I am honestly interested on having a different insight to this matter, since you have stated it recurrently, while not really explaining it.
By canon death, I am talking about the death that happens in the game no matter what—Lee dying due to the bite, or due to blood loss and fatigue. Non-canon deaths are the deaths that take place if you fail a quick-time
event.
I am saying that Lee couldn't have made it back to the mansion if Molly hadn't helped them, since Kenny, Lee and Clementine were cornered in the alleyway, whereas Molly had climbed onto a fire exit and reached safety. Clementine made her puppy eyes and Molly decided to help, but the only reason Lee got out of there was because Molly gave him Hilda. If that hadn't happened, Lee would have been devoured, and his canon death wouldn't have taken place.
Where I was getting at is that the group only seriously considers going to Crawford because they have encountered a group of survivors who fled the community, and these people knew their way in and out. At that point, Molly hadn't confessed about being a former inhabitant, and she only does so if confronted by Lee after he finds the failed sex tape, so I seriously doubt that she would let Lee, Christa and the others know voluntarily. Therefore, it is unlikely that they would've so much as considered going into the community, given that they knew virtually nothing about it.
Related to the last point, Clementine is upset the first time that she hides because Lee was lost to walkers in the alley, although she is visibly happy when she learns that Lee is back. The second time she hides and snuggles out of the house is because she has learned that her parents were not in Crawfodd, and the reason why the stranger's call was so effective is because of this. It was perfectly timed. If you stop Clementine from knowing that Crawford is overrun, the stranger's call loses its effectiveness.
We know that they wouldn't have been able to escape without the RV because the group barely managed to get out of the motel by boarding into it and taking off, with Lilly even barely making it. The walkers were a lot, and when you observe the motel from Lilly's point of view you can see that there are still some bandits shooting rifles from the woods. There is no way that the crew would've survived that. Props to Kenny, though!
You have convinced me on that. It is likely that the group would've splat up, with Kenny and his family going to Savannah, and Lilly staying. I don't feel like we know enough of what Lee, Clementine, Carley and Ben thought to make a prediction. However, I believe that if the bandits hadn't attacked, Katjaa would've been reluctant to leave Lilly and others behind. We know how compassionate she is. That would've made up for some interesting conflict.
I am not talking from a video game point of view. I am talking from a world-within-the-video-game point of view. After Lilly shoots the bandit leader—let's call him Jake—Linda and the others were seen doubtful and anxious over what to do, and that is when Katjaa, Kenny, Clem, Duck and Ben run for cover, while Carley or Doug takes Jake's pistol and shoot Linda. Besides, it was shown that Lee has a non-canon death if he fails to convince Jake that negotiation is convenient for the bandits, and Lee would only have so much things to say before he ran out of options. In the end, we see that Lilly shooting Jake worked relatively well for the group.
It doesn't need to be that way. I am writing here in an attempt to show mainly you, and others reading too, my thoughts on why more people than the five aforementioned are responsible of Lee's death in different ways. If you are persuasive and convince me otherwise, I will adopt your belief. However, I ask for the same courtesy. If you are not aiming to convince me nor others, nor you are interested on hearing what I have to say, please skip my comment and neither of us will waste our time.
Also, I will ask you again not to interpretate it as if I am saying that the characters are to blame, nor as if I'm saying that they acted that way to harm Lee. I am saying that they are indirectly responsible—they unknowingly conditioned the situation in a way that it was possible for Lee to foolishly get bitten.
Without further due…
I do understand that Christa made her decision based on Omid's current health state, and a wounded leg is problematic while exploring an overrun Savannah. However, since Christa made the decision to go into the mansion, why don't you consider both, Omid and Christa, indirectly responsible? I am honestly interested on having a different insight to this matter, since you have stated it recurrently, while not really explaining it.
By canon death, I am talking about the death that happens in the game no matter what—Lee dying due to the bite, or due to blood loss and fatigue. Non-canon deaths are the deaths that take place if you fail a quick-time
event.
I am saying that Lee couldn't have made it back to the mansion if Molly hadn't helped them, since Kenny, Lee and Clementine were cornered in the alleyway, whereas Molly had climbed onto a fire exit and reached safety. Clementine made her puppy eyes and Molly decided to help, but the only reason Lee got out of there was because Molly gave him Hilda. If that hadn't happened, Lee would have been devoured, and his canon death wouldn't have taken place.
Where I was getting at is that the group only seriously considers going to Crawford because they have encountered a group of survivors who fled the community, and these people knew their way in and out. At that point, Molly hadn't confessed about being a former inhabitant, and she only does so if confronted by Lee after he finds the failed sex tape, so I seriously doubt that she would let Lee, Christa and the others know voluntarily. Therefore, it is unlikely that they would've so much as considered going into the community, given that they knew virtually nothing about it.
Related to the last point, Clementine is upset the first time that she hides because Lee was lost to walkers in the alley, although she is visibly happy when she learns that Lee is back. The second time she hides and snuggles out of the house is because she has learned that her parents were not in Crawfodd, and the reason why the stranger's call was so effective is because of this. It was perfectly timed. If you stop Clementine from knowing that Crawford is overrun, the stranger's call loses its effectiveness.
We know that they wouldn't have been able to escape without the RV because the group barely managed to get out of the motel by boarding into it and taking off, with Lilly even barely making it. The walkers were a lot, and when you observe the motel from Lilly's point of view you can see that there are still some bandits shooting rifles from the woods. There is no way that the crew would've survived that. Props to Kenny, though!
You have convinced me on that. It is likely that the group would've splat up, with Kenny and his family going to Savannah, and Lilly staying. I don't feel like we know enough of what Lee, Clementine, Carley and Ben thought to make a prediction. However, I believe that if the bandits hadn't attacked, Katjaa would've been reluctant to leave Lilly and others behind. We know how compassionate she is. That would've made up for some interesting conflict.
I am not talking from a video game point of view. I am talking from a world-within-the-video-game point of view. After Lilly shoots the bandit leader—let's call him Jake—Linda and the others were seen doubtful and anxious over what to do, and that is when Katjaa, Kenny, Clem, Duck and Ben run for cover, while Carley or Doug takes Jake's pistol and shoot Linda. Besides, it was shown that Lee has a non-canon death if he fails to convince Jake that negotiation is convenient for the bandits, and Lee would only have so much things to say before he ran out of options. In the end, we see that Lilly shooting Jake worked relatively well for the group.
Lol. These are great. Thanks for taking the time out to explain for me BetterToSleep
The way you are speaking, it is if you want to be the last person to comment. Like its a competition. Sorry dude, that's just the vibe I'm getting.
And like I keep saying, you need to understand that a: the game pans itself in that direction and b: what you have described contradicts most of what you say.
LET'S GET RIOOOOOGGGHHHHTTT INTO THE NOOOOOOOOOOSSEEEE