I personally don't think that they caused Sarah's death. Rebecca was screaming, the walkers would've been attracted to the observation deck anyway. There was little they could've done to prevent the walkers to get up to the deck, even with more time. And we can't forget that the deck had to colapse in order to really get rid of the walkers. But that's just my personal way to see it and I understand your prespective.
But Aaron is acting like Luke and Jane stabbed Sarah in the gut! As you said, they obviously did not intend to endanger the group, they were reckless and immature, sure, but they really felt sad for what happened to her.
Oh and thank you for taking your time to write all of that. I hadn't considered that prespective.
I usually try to stay out of topics like this, but since AronDracula asked for my help, I might as well put my two cents here and be fair as… more possible in my reasoning.
I wouldn't say that Luke had wanted to get Sarah killed in the trailer as I recognized that he did everything in his power to help her, but it does strike me as odd and frustrating that Luke had wanted to have sex with Jane when he himself was still suffering from the injuries he received from Carver.
He already knows that there is a baby on the way, his group is recovering from the loss of Carlos, Nick, Sarita, and potentially Sarah. Why the two decided to have sex right there and then instead of actually watching out for the group was beyond me.
You are right that Luke would spot a herd of walkers approaching the group from the observation deck, which is why by actually taking advantage of the view would have given everyone more ample time to prepare for upcoming dang… [view original content]
I don't "hate" any character in either season but I strongly dislike certain characters. Larry was horrible to everyone with practically every word he spoke except Brenda. Even feeding him and trying to be as nice as possible fell on deaf ears. So in answer to the post that someone necro bumped, i'll list a few i disliked:
Season 1:
Larry, Lilly, Molly and The Stranger
Season 2:
Carver, Troy, The Russians, Jane and Bonnie.
As i said i do not hate these characters but i did dislike them for similar reasons.
Maybe he had had some anger issues that weren't resolved.
I wouldn't doubt it. Some of the scenes where Lee gets angry have him going a bit overboard, to say the least.
I honestly wouldnt bother with this, I've had the exact same conversation with him about how this luke and jane killed sarah thing is just d… moreaft and how hating on luke for being a supposed liability but not hating sarah and nick and claiming they are only an issue because of the writers is just odd.
He eventually just starts insulting you or asking for others validation.
He was on Jane's side to let her die
I don't remember him being on her side. The closest he came to siding with Jane is him saying "… moreListen, Jane may be right..."
After they escape the trailer park, Luke says he's surprised Clementine left her, gets irritated when Jane starts talking about how it might be better this way, and comparing Sarah to Jaime, and expresses anger and guilt at not being able to get Sarah out of the trailer ("We were in there for hours, you know? I should've done something.")
and wanted to hook up with Jane later
I don't remember that, either. Luke was breaking down under the weight of all the death and destruction around him, and Jane took advantage of that. He even says it himself; Jane made an offer to him, and he took it because he wanted a temporary escape from all the shit happening around them. And that's why he was pissed about Jane leaving, because he realized that she pretty much took advantage of him when he was vulnerable.
I personally don't think that they caused Sarah's death. Rebecca was screaming, the walkers would've been attracted to the observation deck … moreanyway. There was little they could've done to prevent the walkers to get up to the deck, even with more time. And we can't forget that the deck had to colapse in order to really get rid of the walkers. But that's just my personal way to see it and I understand your prespective.
But Aaron is acting like Luke and Jane stabbed Sarah in the gut! As you said, they obviously did not intend to endanger the group, they were reckless and immature, sure, but they really felt sad for what happened to her.
Oh and thank you for taking your time to write all of that. I hadn't considered that prespective.
but it does strike me as odd and frustrating that Luke had wanted to have sex with Jane when he himself was still suffering from the injuries he received from Carver.
Its totally believable the guy agreed or let it happen, he says himself he just wanted to forget about it all for a minute.
his group is recovering from the loss of Carlos, Nick, Sarita, and potentially Sarah.
Luke just as much as any of them, thats really a large reason why he agreed
You are right that Luke would spot a herd of walkers approaching the group from the observation deck, which is why by actually taking advantage of the view would have given everyone more ample time to prepare for upcoming danger and find a place to hide until the herd goes away.
The herd was coming, and they came out of the trees, they wouldnt have been spotted. Also they group hardly made that much noise, the herd was going that way regardless
The reason why most are angry at Jane and Luke about Sarah's second death is how their actions indirectly made all that effort to save her from the trailer completely meaningless.
But how was it? There inaction didnt cause the herd to be there, they maybe could have seen the herd a second earlier (though even that is doubtful) but the herd is still going that way. Sarah stands out on the deck, shes not luke and Janes constant thing they have to watch. Jane is the only one who can even try to help sarah.
the shoddy use of using the cannon to block off the stairs caused the floorboards to collapse and allow Sarah to fall to her death
Okay thats just grasping at stuff now, they had to block the gate and used what they had.
Sure someone could have called out to Sarah to join Kenny inside the building
yeah they could have but unpopular as it may be, sarah could at least done that herself. I dont like what happened to her but if she was incapable of even getting inside where it was safer I find it hard to blame anyone else for her death. Particularly the people who saved her earlier the same day. Though really no one can be blamed for that there is no way any of them could have forseen the canon collapsing the deck (considering they found the canon on the deck).
their poorly thought out actions had indirectly started a chain of events that led to Sarah dying on the conservatory deck, at least that's what I believe.
I dont think they thought about any of it, which is why I find it hard to blame them. They were reckless maybe in having sex but its understandable under all the trauma and stress that they did.
Anyway I guess I just find it irritating that people will make tenfold excuses for arvo, sarah, ben and any other character that causes all manner of problems but give Luke shit for the one time that character isnt an utter bore and does something very human in finding a way to get rid of his stress, especially with zero intention to cause any problems (which in my opinion didnt actually cause any problems anyway). I mean really the game itself seemed to design the scene as humorous, from clems reaction to luke and Jane to the discussion about it in episode 5.
I usually try to stay out of topics like this, but since AronDracula asked for my help, I might as well put my two cents here and be fair as… more possible in my reasoning.
I wouldn't say that Luke had wanted to get Sarah killed in the trailer as I recognized that he did everything in his power to help her, but it does strike me as odd and frustrating that Luke had wanted to have sex with Jane when he himself was still suffering from the injuries he received from Carver.
He already knows that there is a baby on the way, his group is recovering from the loss of Carlos, Nick, Sarita, and potentially Sarah. Why the two decided to have sex right there and then instead of actually watching out for the group was beyond me.
You are right that Luke would spot a herd of walkers approaching the group from the observation deck, which is why by actually taking advantage of the view would have given everyone more ample time to prepare for upcoming dang… [view original content]
I must admit, looking back on the whole thing, I will have to say Bonnie. I understand her actions but am bitter towards her betrayal.
I would have been inclined to say Larry or Carver but at least you knew what kind of people they were. Larry was a dick and Carver was insane, but they never pretended to be your new bff.
Bonnie apologizes for her spontaneous deceptions and tries to become trustworthy but still turns out to be a snake, and regardless of her opinion of Clementine. She just pops up and thinks leaving her for dead if she survives the ice. I never kill her off, because that would not suit the Clementine I play but damn am I jealous of those that do.
Even if, IF, Kenny was right (he wasn't, in my point of view Kenny murdered Larry), even if. Do you really, really expect anyone to agree with someone killing their loved ones before it is absolutely clear he/she is dead? Seriously? Do you really think anyone, ESPECIALLY Kenny, or even Lee, or even you, to do that? To just say, "Yeah, It is not absolutely clear that my dad/child/husband is dead, but let's just kill him"?
Of course Lilly or anyone wouldn't agree to have their loved one killed and no one would see it from that person's perspective "there and then" but the argument here is, if you were locked in a room with someone who could possibly turn in minutes, someone who could kill everyone, it's a situation where he made a rash decision simply because he was terrified. He shouldn't have done it and we all know that but supposing whilst reviving him, it fails and your giving mouth to mouth, his eyes open and rips your face off? It's a chance I wouldn't take. I would have however given them a chance to revive him by maybe holding the salt ready. Again it's not an ok thing to do but a lot of people don't look at it from Kenny's view either. In his eyes, he did it to protect himself and the group, but it should have been handled better.
Have you, or Kenny, tried to see it from her perspective?
Have you tried to see it from his perspective though? As cruel as it may have seemed, there's more to it than the feelings of someone if it meant there was a chance she could be killed by her undead father if he were to turn. I wish it could have been dealt with differently but it wasn't. Again, it wasn't a brilliant decision on his behalf, but from his perspective, if he had turned, they would all most likely have died. The funny thing is (and this adds more points to Lilly's character for me), she seems to understand Kenny's reasons for what he did. I mentioned this in another post recently that if she steals the RV and Lee helped Kenny in the meat locker, Lilly will actually say "part of me understands you did what you did", she even says to Kenny "You've killed before and i'll forgive you".
seeing he started breathing right before Kenny murdered him.
I've stated this many times that the whole scene was left ambiguous so that we do not ever know if Larry was still alive, dead or reanimating. The twitch he made could be looked at as him being alive and reviving or possibly due to reanimation. It's not a fact he was still alive and it's not a fact he was dead.
The thing about all this is and i'm not saying this to sound horrible but why you or anyone would want to try and help Larry is beyond me. For Lilly i could understand but i know that Larry would not have tried to save me if i had the heart attack. He left Lee to die in the drugstore for no good reason apart from what he had had read or heard about Lee's murder case when he knows nothing about what kind of man Lee really is. There are lot of murderers who aren't psychos in the world. It just annoyed me that he never even gave Lee a chance
Well, it is different. I also had this discussions a ton of times before. I am sure we all had.
But someone arguing he hates Lilly for no… moret seeing Kenny's point of view, is a new one. People usually just argued that Kenny was right, not that Lilly should have agreed with Kenny. Whether or not Kenny was right, okay, you could argue that, don't agree, but you can. But saying and expecting Lilly to agree or see Kenny's point, is stupid, in my opinion, and totally unrealistic. Especially given the ambivalent and not-clear situation. Most people, including Kenny, certainly would not.
At the time, Jane was re-living the emotional trauma of witnessing the brutal death of her sister, due to the situation that she found herself with Sarah—cornered in a room, skylight, inability to convince a teenaged girl to continue living, etc. I can imagine that having your last family member tell you that they don't want to keep living in the apocalypse, and knowing that you couldn't do anything, must be devastating. Let's not say that she was in a perfect state of mind. Both Jane and Luke were vulnerable at the time, which explains why Luke didn't reach for Bonnie, and Jane didn't reach for Mike. Beside, Bonnie and Mike had their own little chemistry there.
Now, Jane made the offer to have sex in the observation deck. Luke accepted it. How is she manipulating him when he explicitly accepted to have sex?
Additionally, @RichWalk23 made some fair points, but I stand by what @IronWoodLover said. Rebecca would've screamed nonetheless due to the pain of going through labor, the walkers would've walked up the stairs, the crew would've realized that the gate was going to give, and they would've moved the cannon, resulting in Sarah falling down. If anything, the entire group and Sarah herself share the blame for not telling Sarah to go inside.
He was on Jane's side to let her die
I don't remember him being on her side. The closest he came to siding with Jane is him saying "… moreListen, Jane may be right..."
After they escape the trailer park, Luke says he's surprised Clementine left her, gets irritated when Jane starts talking about how it might be better this way, and comparing Sarah to Jaime, and expresses anger and guilt at not being able to get Sarah out of the trailer ("We were in there for hours, you know? I should've done something.")
and wanted to hook up with Jane later
I don't remember that, either. Luke was breaking down under the weight of all the death and destruction around him, and Jane took advantage of that. He even says it himself; Jane made an offer to him, and he took it because he wanted a temporary escape from all the shit happening around them. And that's why he was pissed about Jane leaving, because he realized that she pretty much took advantage of him when he was vulnerable.
Luke just as much as any of them, thats really a large reason why he agreed
True, but I can't really sympathize with him for complaining about not having sex for a long period of time in a middle of a zombie apocalypse, who chose to have sex with a random stranger when a woman is in labor and a herd of walkers is coming their way.
But how was it? There inaction didnt cause the herd to be there, they maybe could have seen the herd a second earlier (though even that is doubtful) but the herd is still going that way. Sarah stands out on the deck, shes not luke and Janes constant thing they have to watch. Jane is the only one who can even try to help sarah.
I never said nor implied that their inaction caused the herd to appear, I merely stated that their inaction caused the herd to successfully sneak up on the group when they had an opportunity to use the conservatory deck's view to their advantage, and yet they had thought that sex was more important than looking out for the group. I understand that the woods would have hidden the walker well, but there's a difference between trying and not trying at all with keeping a lookout.
And considering that Sarah is a part of of the Cabin Group and has been with Luke for longer than Jane has, then I would imagine that he would have some responsibility for her well being, especially when her father and the doctor of the group has died hours ago.
Anyway I guess I just find it irritating that people will make tenfold excuses for arvo, sarah, ben and any other character that causes all manner of problems but give Luke shit for the one time that character isnt an utter bore and does something very human in finding a way to get rid of his stress, especially with zero intention to cause any problems (which in my opinion didnt actually cause any problems anyway).
Well...this is the forums. You are going to find people who will not agree with your opinions. You have yours, and I have mine. Might as well agree to disagree.
but it does strike me as odd and frustrating that Luke had wanted to have sex with Jane when he himself was still suffering from the injurie… mores he received from Carver.
Its totally believable the guy agreed or let it happen, he says himself he just wanted to forget about it all for a minute.
his group is recovering from the loss of Carlos, Nick, Sarita, and potentially Sarah.
Luke just as much as any of them, thats really a large reason why he agreed
You are right that Luke would spot a herd of walkers approaching the group from the observation deck, which is why by actually taking advantage of the view would have given everyone more ample time to prepare for upcoming danger and find a place to hide until the herd goes away.
The herd was coming, and they came out of the trees, they wouldnt have been spotted. Also they group hardly made that much noise, the herd was going that way regardless
The reason w… [view original content]
I am glad to see that, despite heavily disliking Jane, you don't make her out to be a selfish vulture who took advantage of poor little Luke with the hurt ribs.
And that's why he was pissed about Jane leaving, because he realized that she pretty much took advantage of him when he was vulnerable.
Yeah, he was pissed because his new "girlfriend" left and not when his friends died being Nick and Sarah.
Are you referring to the scene in which he determinantly doesn't help you before Danny is about to shoot Lee or the scene in the drugstore in episode 3?
In either scene, he does have a reason not to help Lee regardless if people feel his reasons "aren't good reasons". Even i think it was a bit extreme but i also see why he felt so strongly about it and how angry he was at Lee. Again from his perspective, he saw Lee as someone who was putting himself and everyone in danger on the chance Larry would turn. He must have felt worried that with him and everyone dead, no one would be able to save his family who could be held as permanent hostages or eaten by those cannibals. Did you ever look at it like that?
That's why i can understand it from Kenny's view but don't get me wrong, i didn't agree with him determinantly leaving Lee to die (although he never did in my playthrough) but unlike a lot of hateful people around, i don't hold grudges. I forgive people and think deeply behind the reasons of people's actions, and Kenny isn't a bad man. He's just someone who has made a lot of mistakes and has a lot of issues in general.
Well, obviously she, or anyone, would hold a grudge against someone who killed a loved one who might still have been alive. Do you really bl… moreame her for that? Would you not do the same when someone kills someone you love, even though there might still have been a chance he/she lived?
Also, where did she not shoot to protect Lee? Does she not do it when you help Kenny? Because ever since Lee tried to help Lilly, in my playthrough, it was Kenny who didn't save Lee even though he could, and instead Lilly saved me form the cannibals. And damn, Kenny didn't even have a good reason for it. Just because I tried to stop Larry from dying, Kenny forgot all Lee did for him, like saving duck and feeding his family, and would have let Lee die not once, but at least 2 times. On the farm, and in the store at the beginning of the episode after the farm. He could have helped me, but he didn't, in situation that could have ended in Lee's dead very quickly. I… [view original content]
Sarah's alternate death was heavily unrealistic, though.
Somehow, the deck collapsed, and Sarah fell to the ground along with it, but she ended under a set of wood planks that broke her bones, even though she was standing on the same wood planks seconds earlier.
Unrealistic? How so? It was unexpected, tragic, and it did kinda feel like they just pushed her away after her first "real death". Unrealist… moreic would be more like it had almost no or very little chance of happening. And we all know that Sarah was shaken up after Carlos' death so her being not careful enough wasn't unrealistic. "Shitheads" is a very ugly insult, whether you are joking or not, some of TT members can see it...
Telltale did want Sarah out, obviously, no arguing on that, but realistic or not, I explained that above in my reply just now.
Lee got killed by a walker (the ultimate direct killer so don't say she was the killer because she surely didn't bite his arm). Walker was where Clementine's hat fell. Her hat fel because of the stranger (the so called indirect killer). The stranger manipulated Clementine. Clementine trusted him although Lee told her not to. (by this logic she is the second indirect killer) And so on and on un… [view original content]
Everyone knew the deck was going to collapse (not necessarily most of it) because they had to get rid of it, so Sarah falling wasn't a miracle. Now, the other part, where she was crying for help on the ground, the best I can do is to say that the deck broke in a half (there was that heavy canon that broke it, can't remember how much exactly). I didn't even know it broke her bones, I thought her leg(s) was just very stuck. Huh, interesting.
Sarah's alternate death was heavily unrealistic, though.
Somehow, the deck collapsed, and Sarah fell to the ground along with it, but she… more ended under a set of wood planks that broke her bones, even though she was standing on the same wood planks seconds earlier.
Everyone knew the deck was going to collapse (not necessarily most of it) because they had to get rid of it, so Sarah falling wasn't a mirac… morele. Now, the other part, where she was crying for help on the ground, the best I can do is to say that the deck broke in a half (there was that heavy canon that broke it, can't remember how much exactly). I didn't even know it broke her bones, I thought her leg(s) was just very stuck. Huh, interesting.
You seem to not have read the first sentence of my first reply to you. I am not saying Lilly is better than Kenny. She isn't. She is, in certain aspects, worse. She is much more a murderer than Kenny is. That, however, does not mean I can ignore that Kenny murdered her father in front of her, who could have survived, who could still have lived.
What I am also saying, is that based on the comment I first replied to, point 3, you seem to really like Kenny. But Kenny can, if you do certain things, do the exact same thing you criticize Lilly for, that is letting Lee die. And unlike Kenny, Lilly at least has an understandable reason to do it. Considering that most people choose to defend Duck when first meeting her, she already had beef with Lee. And then he helps murder her dad even though her dad could still have lived.
Kenny, however, will let you die even if you did nothing but good to him and his family, and the only reason being that Lee thought that Larry might still live, and tries to first revive Larry. Due to one (avoidable) disagreement, he goes from "Best Friend" to "Letting you die several times", no matter how good you were to him or his family.
Also, I am not trying to change your mind, I hate Lilly too (and Kenny), just want to understand how you can hate, or criticize, Lilly for something Kenny does too. That seems hypocritical.
I must admit, looking back on the whole thing, I will have to say Bonnie. I understand her actions but am bitter towards her betrayal.
I … morewould have been inclined to say Larry or Carver but at least you knew what kind of people they were. Larry was a dick and Carver was insane, but they never pretended to be your new bff.
Bonnie apologizes for her spontaneous deceptions and tries to become trustworthy but still turns out to be a snake, and regardless of her opinion of Clementine. She just pops up and thinks leaving her for dead if she survives the ice. I never kill her off, because that would not suit the Clementine I play but damn am I jealous of those that do.
Because the group was in need of help. When Clem and Jane get back to the group they are given chores. Jane is sent to the observation deck to see if it was a good place for Rebecca to have the baby. She then stays there until she opens the door. Then she has sex with Luke. The walkers attack and the baby is delivered so since the group is safe and seteled she decides that is time to leave because what happened to Sarah affected her and she worries that the same can happen with Clem. So, in short, she only leaves later that day because she wanted to help the group first. Pretty easy to understand no?
Can we please stop this invalid argument? I just think what I think is right, there is no need changing my mind, you have your opinions and I have mine.
Because the group was in need of help. When Clem and Jane get back to the group they are given chores. Jane is sent to the observation deck … moreto see if it was a good place for Rebecca to have the baby. She then stays there until she opens the door. Then she has sex with Luke. The walkers attack and the baby is delivered so since the group is safe and seteled she decides that is time to leave because what happened to Sarah affected her and she worries that the same can happen with Clem. So, in short, she only leaves later that day because she wanted to help the group first. Pretty easy to understand no?
I didn't really have a least favorite character in S1.
But for S2 I'd definately have Bonnie, Luke, Carlos, Mike, Arvo, Michelle, and Winston as my most hated characters.
It's like with me too Daze. I think everyone's first playthrough is what matters the most because it's like first impressions. Sometimes we change our minds after seeing a character's "other side" shall we say but a lot of the time our first impressions of a character is what matters the most and isn't always easy to change our views of them, not like i want to change mine anyway!
Yeah, poor Lee. We may honor him by keeping Clem alive and as a good person (as it is the apocalypse we can just keep her from being an asshole, that is fine).
For Season One, it would have to be the Save-Lots bandits.
I would go with Kenny when it comes to Season Two.
Michonne? The ferry scavengers, no doubt.
Comments
Just so you know AronDracula, there isn't much point in being antagonistic towards those who don't share your opinion.
I'm only helping you out this once, but you need to know when to agree to disagree and move on.
I personally don't think that they caused Sarah's death. Rebecca was screaming, the walkers would've been attracted to the observation deck anyway. There was little they could've done to prevent the walkers to get up to the deck, even with more time. And we can't forget that the deck had to colapse in order to really get rid of the walkers. But that's just my personal way to see it and I understand your prespective.
But Aaron is acting like Luke and Jane stabbed Sarah in the gut! As you said, they obviously did not intend to endanger the group, they were reckless and immature, sure, but they really felt sad for what happened to her.
Oh and thank you for taking your time to write all of that. I hadn't considered that prespective.
I don't "hate" any character in either season but I strongly dislike certain characters. Larry was horrible to everyone with practically every word he spoke except Brenda. Even feeding him and trying to be as nice as possible fell on deaf ears. So in answer to the post that someone necro bumped, i'll list a few i disliked:
Season 1:
Larry, Lilly, Molly and The Stranger
Season 2:
Carver, Troy, The Russians, Jane and Bonnie.
As i said i do not hate these characters but i did dislike them for similar reasons.
I would've avoided crossing him had Lee been my professor.
Thank you for your reply. (:
I value him as anyone else on this forums, so I'll always be open for new discussions with him.
Yeah, he was pissed because his new "girlfriend" left and not when his friends died being Nick and Sarah.
Jane didn't, she only did that for Clem
Its totally believable the guy agreed or let it happen, he says himself he just wanted to forget about it all for a minute.
Luke just as much as any of them, thats really a large reason why he agreed
The herd was coming, and they came out of the trees, they wouldnt have been spotted. Also they group hardly made that much noise, the herd was going that way regardless
But how was it? There inaction didnt cause the herd to be there, they maybe could have seen the herd a second earlier (though even that is doubtful) but the herd is still going that way. Sarah stands out on the deck, shes not luke and Janes constant thing they have to watch. Jane is the only one who can even try to help sarah.
Okay thats just grasping at stuff now, they had to block the gate and used what they had.
yeah they could have but unpopular as it may be, sarah could at least done that herself. I dont like what happened to her but if she was incapable of even getting inside where it was safer I find it hard to blame anyone else for her death. Particularly the people who saved her earlier the same day. Though really no one can be blamed for that there is no way any of them could have forseen the canon collapsing the deck (considering they found the canon on the deck).
I dont think they thought about any of it, which is why I find it hard to blame them. They were reckless maybe in having sex but its understandable under all the trauma and stress that they did.
Anyway I guess I just find it irritating that people will make tenfold excuses for arvo, sarah, ben and any other character that causes all manner of problems but give Luke shit for the one time that character isnt an utter bore and does something very human in finding a way to get rid of his stress, especially with zero intention to cause any problems (which in my opinion didnt actually cause any problems anyway). I mean really the game itself seemed to design the scene as humorous, from clems reaction to luke and Jane to the discussion about it in episode 5.
What? She even leaves the group because of it!
I must admit, looking back on the whole thing, I will have to say Bonnie. I understand her actions but am bitter towards her betrayal.
I would have been inclined to say Larry or Carver but at least you knew what kind of people they were. Larry was a dick and Carver was insane, but they never pretended to be your new bff.
Bonnie apologizes for her spontaneous deceptions and tries to become trustworthy but still turns out to be a snake, and regardless of her opinion of Clementine. She just pops up and thinks leaving her for dead if she survives the ice. I never kill her off, because that would not suit the Clementine I play but damn am I jealous of those that do.
Of course Lilly or anyone wouldn't agree to have their loved one killed and no one would see it from that person's perspective "there and then" but the argument here is, if you were locked in a room with someone who could possibly turn in minutes, someone who could kill everyone, it's a situation where he made a rash decision simply because he was terrified. He shouldn't have done it and we all know that but supposing whilst reviving him, it fails and your giving mouth to mouth, his eyes open and rips your face off? It's a chance I wouldn't take. I would have however given them a chance to revive him by maybe holding the salt ready. Again it's not an ok thing to do but a lot of people don't look at it from Kenny's view either. In his eyes, he did it to protect himself and the group, but it should have been handled better.
Have you tried to see it from his perspective though? As cruel as it may have seemed, there's more to it than the feelings of someone if it meant there was a chance she could be killed by her undead father if he were to turn. I wish it could have been dealt with differently but it wasn't. Again, it wasn't a brilliant decision on his behalf, but from his perspective, if he had turned, they would all most likely have died. The funny thing is (and this adds more points to Lilly's character for me), she seems to understand Kenny's reasons for what he did. I mentioned this in another post recently that if she steals the RV and Lee helped Kenny in the meat locker, Lilly will actually say "part of me understands you did what you did", she even says to Kenny "You've killed before and i'll forgive you".
I've stated this many times that the whole scene was left ambiguous so that we do not ever know if Larry was still alive, dead or reanimating. The twitch he made could be looked at as him being alive and reviving or possibly due to reanimation. It's not a fact he was still alive and it's not a fact he was dead.
The thing about all this is and i'm not saying this to sound horrible but why you or anyone would want to try and help Larry is beyond me. For Lilly i could understand but i know that Larry would not have tried to save me if i had the heart attack. He left Lee to die in the drugstore for no good reason apart from what he had had read or heard about Lee's murder case when he knows nothing about what kind of man Lee really is. There are lot of murderers who aren't psychos in the world. It just annoyed me that he never even gave Lee a chance
At the time, Jane was re-living the emotional trauma of witnessing the brutal death of her sister, due to the situation that she found herself with Sarah—cornered in a room, skylight, inability to convince a teenaged girl to continue living, etc. I can imagine that having your last family member tell you that they don't want to keep living in the apocalypse, and knowing that you couldn't do anything, must be devastating. Let's not say that she was in a perfect state of mind. Both Jane and Luke were vulnerable at the time, which explains why Luke didn't reach for Bonnie, and Jane didn't reach for Mike. Beside, Bonnie and Mike had their own little chemistry there.
Now, Jane made the offer to have sex in the observation deck. Luke accepted it. How is she manipulating him when he explicitly accepted to have sex?
Additionally, @RichWalk23 made some fair points, but I stand by what @IronWoodLover said. Rebecca would've screamed nonetheless due to the pain of going through labor, the walkers would've walked up the stairs, the crew would've realized that the gate was going to give, and they would've moved the cannon, resulting in Sarah falling down. If anything, the entire group and Sarah herself share the blame for not telling Sarah to go inside.
True, but I can't really sympathize with him for complaining about not having sex for a long period of time in a middle of a zombie apocalypse, who chose to have sex with a random stranger when a woman is in labor and a herd of walkers is coming their way.
I never said nor implied that their inaction caused the herd to appear, I merely stated that their inaction caused the herd to successfully sneak up on the group when they had an opportunity to use the conservatory deck's view to their advantage, and yet they had thought that sex was more important than looking out for the group. I understand that the woods would have hidden the walker well, but there's a difference between trying and not trying at all with keeping a lookout.
And considering that Sarah is a part of of the Cabin Group and has been with Luke for longer than Jane has, then I would imagine that he would have some responsibility for her well being, especially when her father and the doctor of the group has died hours ago.
Well...this is the forums. You are going to find people who will not agree with your opinions. You have yours, and I have mine. Might as well agree to disagree.
I am glad to see that, despite heavily disliking Jane, you don't make her out to be a selfish vulture who took advantage of poor little Luke with the hurt ribs.
Are you referring to the scene in which he determinantly doesn't help you before Danny is about to shoot Lee or the scene in the drugstore in episode 3?
In either scene, he does have a reason not to help Lee regardless if people feel his reasons "aren't good reasons". Even i think it was a bit extreme but i also see why he felt so strongly about it and how angry he was at Lee. Again from his perspective, he saw Lee as someone who was putting himself and everyone in danger on the chance Larry would turn. He must have felt worried that with him and everyone dead, no one would be able to save his family who could be held as permanent hostages or eaten by those cannibals. Did you ever look at it like that?
That's why i can understand it from Kenny's view but don't get me wrong, i didn't agree with him determinantly leaving Lee to die (although he never did in my playthrough) but unlike a lot of hateful people around, i don't hold grudges. I forgive people and think deeply behind the reasons of people's actions, and Kenny isn't a bad man. He's just someone who has made a lot of mistakes and has a lot of issues in general.
Sarah's alternate death was heavily unrealistic, though.
Somehow, the deck collapsed, and Sarah fell to the ground along with it, but she ended under a set of wood planks that broke her bones, even though she was standing on the same wood planks seconds earlier.
Everyone knew the deck was going to collapse (not necessarily most of it) because they had to get rid of it, so Sarah falling wasn't a miracle. Now, the other part, where she was crying for help on the ground, the best I can do is to say that the deck broke in a half (there was that heavy canon that broke it, can't remember how much exactly). I didn't even know it broke her bones, I thought her leg(s) was just very stuck. Huh, interesting.
You could say that the broken bones part was my speculation…
You seem to not have read the first sentence of my first reply to you. I am not saying Lilly is better than Kenny. She isn't. She is, in certain aspects, worse. She is much more a murderer than Kenny is. That, however, does not mean I can ignore that Kenny murdered her father in front of her, who could have survived, who could still have lived.
What I am also saying, is that based on the comment I first replied to, point 3, you seem to really like Kenny. But Kenny can, if you do certain things, do the exact same thing you criticize Lilly for, that is letting Lee die. And unlike Kenny, Lilly at least has an understandable reason to do it. Considering that most people choose to defend Duck when first meeting her, she already had beef with Lee. And then he helps murder her dad even though her dad could still have lived.
Kenny, however, will let you die even if you did nothing but good to him and his family, and the only reason being that Lee thought that Larry might still live, and tries to first revive Larry. Due to one (avoidable) disagreement, he goes from "Best Friend" to "Letting you die several times", no matter how good you were to him or his family.
Also, I am not trying to change your mind, I hate Lilly too (and Kenny), just want to understand how you can hate, or criticize, Lilly for something Kenny does too. That seems hypocritical.
Oh là là.
…w-what?
I thought Bill, Larry and I would be best friends forever!
Any reason? She was actually one of my favorites.
And that makes it okay?
She is pretty horrible in episode 1. First impressions go a long way
Indeed it would be interesting to know, it also seems to me that Lee was not too close with his Family.
Not really but still, she was going for Ben, not Doug.
No, you can leave Sarah to die yet she still leaves.
Again, she leaves the group because Sarah dies and I believe that if you leave Sarah she still dies, so i'm not seeing your point?
That definitely. Too bad it was too late to renew those bonds..
Then why doesn't she leave earlier? I don't see YOUR point.
Because the group was in need of help. When Clem and Jane get back to the group they are given chores. Jane is sent to the observation deck to see if it was a good place for Rebecca to have the baby. She then stays there until she opens the door. Then she has sex with Luke. The walkers attack and the baby is delivered so since the group is safe and seteled she decides that is time to leave because what happened to Sarah affected her and she worries that the same can happen with Clem. So, in short, she only leaves later that day because she wanted to help the group first. Pretty easy to understand no?
Can we please stop this invalid argument? I just think what I think is right, there is no need changing my mind, you have your opinions and I have mine.
Mike and Bonnie after that finale. Arvo too of course!
.....
That's more like scary.
As soon as she apologized I was fine with her, I guess it's because I'm very forgiving.
I didn't really have a least favorite character in S1.
But for S2 I'd definately have Bonnie, Luke, Carlos, Mike, Arvo, Michelle, and Winston as my most hated characters.
It's like with me too Daze. I think everyone's first playthrough is what matters the most because it's like first impressions. Sometimes we change our minds after seeing a character's "other side" shall we say but a lot of the time our first impressions of a character is what matters the most and isn't always easy to change our views of them, not like i want to change mine anyway!
Yeah, poor Lee. We may honor him by keeping Clem alive and as a good person (as it is the apocalypse we can just keep her from being an asshole, that is fine).
season 1: kenny????? honestly i didn't really hate him, but boy did he make my blood boil all throughout season 1 after i attempted to save larry
400 days: ???? tbh for me everyone was pretty chill
season 2: KENNY.
michonne miniseries: i can't bring myself to hate anyone lol. no matter how much the game wanted me to hate the so called """"""""villains""""""""
Oh no, wait! Troy should go there instead of Ken.