Leaving a baby that could easily have frozen to death/made a noise to draw attention is not a good plan at all. She put 4 lives in danger to try to prove her point. No matter how good her intentions for Clem, she was just as in the wrong on many levels and there could have been another way to prove her point.
I previously discussed the following topics in this comment.
* Kenny on Larry's murder or reanimation prevention.
* Kenny on leaving… more Lee to fend for himself.
* Lilly on the Carley and Doug murder.
* Lilly on the RV theft.
* Rebecca on "being mean" to Clementine.
* Nick on shooting Matthew.
Bonnie on lying to Walter about her intentions.
I forgave Bonnie long ago. She explains in "In Harm's Way" that she thought she would be able to act like the peacekeeper between both groups if she was the one to establish contact. That obviously failed, but that does not mean that we should hold it against her. Carver was going to reach the cabin group either way, and she took the risk to be the one in between, when she could have played fool and let Carver do whatever the hell he wanted with Alvin and the others.
Besides, she is the only one who attempted to calm Carver when the latter was beating Kenny, along with N… [view original content]
Not here to cause any arguments but I don't see how being inside a car is more dangerous than being in someone's arms or on the ground. AJ wasn't at risk, he was fairly close to the rest stop so if he attracted any walkers Jane, Clem and Kenny would be close enough to save him.
Leaving a baby that could easily have frozen to death/made a noise to draw attention is not a good plan at all. She put 4 lives in danger to… more try to prove her point. No matter how good her intentions for Clem, she was just as in the wrong on many levels and there could have been another way to prove her point.
Leaving him in a freezing car, windows slightly open where any walker could potentially get in and kill him? There is no fucking defending that for christ sake. By the way I didn't say it was more dangerous but if she hadn't done what she did then Kenny wouldn't have become dangerous, AJ wouldn't be in danger anf Clem wouldn't have been put in harmd way when trying to stop both of them.
Not here to cause any arguments but I don't see how being inside a car is more dangerous than being in someone's arms or on the ground. AJ w… moreasn't at risk, he was fairly close to the rest stop so if he attracted any walkers Jane, Clem and Kenny would be close enough to save him.
The fact that the window was open shows that she made sure that AJ would have an uninterrupted supply of oxygen, and at the same time, it makes more likely that somebody would be able to hear him if something happened to Jane herself. Whether the window is open or closed does not make more or less possible for the walkers to break the door, as they only push—not pull.
Keeping a newborn inside a car is arguably better than carrying him in the open, in the middle of a raging blizzard. He is not as exposed to cold currents of wind, and therefore, he is less vulnerable to viruses, frostbite, and hypothermia.
Jane was not trying to prove the point that ice cream is better than cake. She was trying to show Clementine that Kenny could eventually cause Clementine and AJ harm, be it consciously or subconsciously.
Leaving him in a freezing car, windows slightly open where any walker could potentially get in and kill him? There is no fucking defending t… morehat for christ sake. By the way I didn't say it was more dangerous but if she hadn't done what she did then Kenny wouldn't have become dangerous, AJ wouldn't be in danger anf Clem wouldn't have been put in harmd way when trying to stop both of them.
Keeping a newborn inside a car is arguably better than carrying him in the open, in the middle of a raging blizzard. He is not as exposed to cold currents of wind, and therefore, he is less vulnerable to viruses, frostbite, and hypothermia.
That may very well be true, but you can't deny leaving a newborn baby, who obliviously has no way to potentially defend himself from walkers and other threats in a zombie apocalypse, alone and unattended is not just incredibly reckless and stupid, but shows that Jane has very little care for AJ's life. If she was in anyway worried about his safety, she wouldn't have taken such a huge risk and left a baby completely on his own.
I mean, had Kenny killed Jane (which he did in my playthrough) and AJ did not start crying at a very convenient time, there would have been no way for Clementine and Kenny to know he was alive, or his location. Again showing a severe lack of care Jane had towards AJ, who'd she simply saw as a means to use in order to prove her point about Kenny.
She used a living, breathing human child as an excuse to bring Kenny to the brink of madness, knowing dead well how he'd react with her having seen how his previous behaviours in stressful situations. There's no excuse or justification, at least in my opinion, for her actions even if she did think she was doing it for the best.
The fact that the window was open shows that she made sure that AJ would have an uninterrupted supply of oxygen, and at the same time, it ma… morekes more likely that somebody would be able to hear him if something happened to Jane herself. Whether the window is open or closed does not make more or less possible for the walkers to break the door, as they only push—not pull.
Keeping a newborn inside a car is arguably better than carrying him in the open, in the middle of a raging blizzard. He is not as exposed to cold currents of wind, and therefore, he is less vulnerable to viruses, frostbite, and hypothermia.
Jane was not trying to prove the point that ice cream is better than cake. She was trying to show Clementine that Kenny could eventually cause Clementine and AJ harm, be it consciously or subconsciously.
She used a living, breathing human child as an excuse to bring Kenny to the brink of madness,
Nope, she got the living, breathing human child to a safe place and used a hypothetical situation to bring a reaction out of Kenny. The madness came from Kenny and only him.
That may very well be true, but you can't deny leaving a newborn baby, who obliviously has no way to potentially defend himself from walkers and other threats in a zombie apocalypse
Therefore he was in a closed car (and as far as I know zombies can't open cars???) and not in the middle of a building or something.
I mean, had Kenny killed Jane (which he did in my playthrough) and AJ did not start crying at a very convenient time, there would have been no way for Clementine and Kenny to know he was alive, or his location.
Jane wasn't counting on Kenny trying to murder her, obviously.
Keeping a newborn inside a car is arguably better than carrying him in the open, in the middle of a raging blizzard. He is not as exposed to… more cold currents of wind, and therefore, he is less vulnerable to viruses, frostbite, and hypothermia.
That may very well be true, but you can't deny leaving a newborn baby, who obliviously has no way to potentially defend himself from walkers and other threats in a zombie apocalypse, alone and unattended is not just incredibly reckless and stupid, but shows that Jane has very little care for AJ's life. If she was in anyway worried about his safety, she wouldn't have taken such a huge risk and left a baby completely on his own.
I mean, had Kenny killed Jane (which he did in my playthrough) and AJ did not start crying at a very convenient time, there would have been no way for Clementine and Kenny to know he was alive, or his location. Again showing a severe lack of care Jane had towards AJ, who'd… [view original content]
Nope, she got the living, breathing human child to a safe place and used a hypothetical situation to bring a reaction out of Kenny. The madness came from Kenny and only him.
Yes, Kenny's reaction was his own and it's his fault for not keeping a clear head, but had Jane not went out of her way to enrage him at that moment and previously, I'd highly doubt he'd have been as angry or at all. Oh, and there's always the fact she literally gave him the idea AJ was dead, promoting him to lose his shit.
Therefore he was in a closed car (and as far as I know zombies can't open cars???) and not in the middle of a building or something.
I'm sure walkers are capable of breaking windows, but even if they couldn't, leaving a baby unattended is still very dangerous and gives insight that Jane doesn't give a hoot about him, willing to leave the child whenever it suits her.
Jane wasn't counting on Kenny trying to murder her, obviously.
I'm sure Jane had confidence she'd survive, but she was still reckless enough to take the risk, putting her life, Kenny's and AJ's lives all in danger (Clementine's to a lesser extent), which once again, shows she really has little regard for AJ. To take a risk like that with someone's life, especially a baby's, truly demonstrates Jane's ruthless streak.If this was a women who's as caring as @BetterToSleep described, she wouldn't have even thought of the plan.
She used a living, breathing human child as an excuse to bring Kenny to the brink of madness,
Nope, she got the living, breathing hu… moreman child to a safe place and used a hypothetical situation to bring a reaction out of Kenny. The madness came from Kenny and only him.
That may very well be true, but you can't deny leaving a newborn baby, who obliviously has no way to potentially defend himself from walkers and other threats in a zombie apocalypse
Therefore he was in a closed car (and as far as I know zombies can't open cars???) and not in the middle of a building or something.
I mean, had Kenny killed Jane (which he did in my playthrough) and AJ did not start crying at a very convenient time, there would have been no way for Clementine and Kenny to know he was alive, or his location.
Jane wasn't counting on Kenny trying to murder her, obviously.
Fuck sake! She put FOUR people in danger, are you honestly denying this BetterToSleep?? Clem, AJ, Kenny and herself. She is to blame for everything that happened in that scene and before you bite my head off, i include Kenny as part of the blame for his actions, however, she "caused" him to react like that and you are defending her basically because you like her and seemingly not seeing what i see which is no surprise because IronWoodLover and BetterToSleep, we disagree 90% of the time. Oh and i know the reason why she left the windows open, i'm not an idiot but you felt the need to point that out so you must think i am, no surprise there. Thoughtful she may be and i thank her for that but thats not the fucking point here. And where did i say a walker would "pull" the window out? And how do you know they wouldn't have the ability to pull? I believe Winston and Clem were pulled back at the start of All That Remains? And Clem was grabbed at the drugstore in season 1 twice and surely when someone or something grabs you and you try to free yourself, that person or in this case a walker that holds on to you must be pulling you back so you don't get away?? Or will you deny that as well? Anyway a walker could easily have PUSHED the half open window through as well. The baby dies then. I really couldn't give a shit on your opinion here just as you don't with mine but you thinking it was ok what she did handling AJ's safety is disgusting even for you. She shouldn't have fucking done what she did in the first place and realistically AJ would have died in the cold long before this anyway which boils down to bad BAD writing as far as I'm concerned.
It really does not matter about how good her intentions were for Clem's safety, that was irrelevant because of what actually ended up happening and the problems it caused. I'll say this a hundred fucking times, i don't mind. If she had not done what she did, AJ would be safe, Clem would be safe, Jane would be safe and Kenny would not have lost it. None of them would have died there and then. And just because she didn't like Kenny and because Clem didn't want to leave her troubled friend behind, she goes and does what she did forcing a dangerous situation upon them all because she didn't get what she wanted.
I get that you like Jane, i really do and you may not think this but i do respect that and have never tried to change your opinion. I am sorry that my post has been very aggressive but i feel very strongly about this scene and it annoys me when certain people put all of the blame only on Kenny here. Even if it was another character like Luke or Rebecca, i'd still think Jane's actions are disgusting despite her intentions. I'm sorry and that will never change.
The fact that the window was open shows that she made sure that AJ would have an uninterrupted supply of oxygen, and at the same time, it ma… morekes more likely that somebody would be able to hear him if something happened to Jane herself. Whether the window is open or closed does not make more or less possible for the walkers to break the door, as they only push—not pull.
Keeping a newborn inside a car is arguably better than carrying him in the open, in the middle of a raging blizzard. He is not as exposed to cold currents of wind, and therefore, he is less vulnerable to viruses, frostbite, and hypothermia.
Jane was not trying to prove the point that ice cream is better than cake. She was trying to show Clementine that Kenny could eventually cause Clementine and AJ harm, be it consciously or subconsciously.
Yes, Kenny's reaction was his own and it's his fault for not keeping a clear head, but had Jane not went out of her way to enrage him at that moment and previously, I'd highly doubt he'd have been as angry or at all. Oh, and there's always the fact she literally gave him the idea AJ was dead, promoting him to lose his shit.
That's very true but I think that what Jane was trying to do was pretty understandable and justified so I don't see Jane testing Kenny as a negative thing for many reasons that I'm not going to go into. I understand if you feel differently, although I disagree.
I'm sure walkers are capable of breaking windows,
I'm sure they can too. But I'm also pretty sure that that makes noise hence me mentioning that the car was pretty close to rest stop, meaning that Clem/Kenny/Jane could've spotted that walker and investigated it very easily.
leaving a baby unattended is still very dangerous
How so? Being in a car is better than being out there in the cold.
and gives insight that Jane doesn't give a hoot about him
No, it really doesn't. If Jane didn't care for this baby she would've really left him.
I'm sure Jane had confidence she'd survive
Jane didn't think that the fight was going to get to a point where hers and Kenny's life would be on the line. She mentions it if you let her leave and it's also proven when she guards her knife in the middle of the fight.
but she was still reckless enough to take the risk, putting her life, Kenny's and AJ's lives all in danger (Clementine's to a lesser extent)
The person who put lives at danger in this scene is highly debatable. Jane's life (therefore AJ's whereabouts) is only at risk of being lost because someone decided that murder was the answer.
The only thing that I'm trying to point out here is that Jane did all she could to ensure AJ's safety. It's fine if you don't agree with what she did before and why she did it, but you gotta admit that AJ was pretty safe.
Nope, she got the living, breathing human child to a safe place and used a hypothetical situation to bring a reaction out of Kenny. The madn… moreess came from Kenny and only him.
Yes, Kenny's reaction was his own and it's his fault for not keeping a clear head, but had Jane not went out of her way to enrage him at that moment and previously, I'd highly doubt he'd have been as angry or at all. Oh, and there's always the fact she literally gave him the idea AJ was dead, promoting him to lose his shit.
Therefore he was in a closed car (and as far as I know zombies can't open cars???) and not in the middle of a building or something.
I'm sure walkers are capable of breaking windows, but even if they couldn't, leaving a baby unattended is still very dangerous and gives insight that Jane doesn't give a hoot about him, willing to leave the child whenever it suits her.
Jane wasn't counting on Kenny trying to murder her, obvious… [view original content]
Fuck sake! She put FOUR people in danger, are you honestly denying this BetterToSleep?? Clem, AJ, Kenny and herself. She is to blame for eve… morerything that happened in that scene and before you bite my head off, i include Kenny as part of the blame for his actions, however, she "caused" him to react like that and you are defending her basically because you like her and seemingly not seeing what i see which is no surprise because IronWoodLover and BetterToSleep, we disagree 90% of the time. Oh and i know the reason why she left the windows open, i'm not an idiot but you felt the need to point that out so you must think i am, no surprise there. Thoughtful she may be and i thank her for that but thats not the fucking point here. And where did i say a walker would "pull" the window out? And how do you know they wouldn't have the ability to pull? I believe Winston and Clem were pulled back at the start of All That Remains? And Clem was grabbed at the… [view original content]
I know this was addressed to someone else but jumping into the convo again:
that's very true but I think that what Jane was trying to do was pretty understandable and justified so I don't see Jane testing Kenny as a negative thing
Her good intentions put everyone's life in danger and you feel her testing Kenny was acceptable? Why? Because there's a chance Clem "might" be in danger from Kenny when there was also a good chance he'd do nothing at all if he was kept calm? And the fact there could have been several different ways to get her point across to Clem which could have resulted in a safer way and done at a completely different time and not when they were in such a desperate situation already??
I'm sure they can too. But I'm also pretty sure that that makes noise hence me mentioning that the car was pretty close to rest stop, meaning that Clem/Kenny/Jane could've spotted that walker and investigated it very easily.
Did you take into account that the blizzard could have masked the noise of a walker banging on a car as opposed to a baby making a noise? Also spotting a walker in that blizzard would have been pretty damn hard.
How so? Being in a car is better than being out there in the cold.
And what about keeping the baby inside a rest stop?? And you know, not leaving a helpless child unattended?
No, it really doesn't. If Jane didn't care for this baby she would've really left him.
I feel she only looks out for AJ because of Clem and how much Clem tries to look after her. I honestly feel if Jane was on her own and had no one else around her, she would not look after a baby and I wouldn't be surprised if she left him or her to die if her own life was ever in danger. It's just when someone hints that their mother (Rebecca) should get rid of him when he's born, and when someone who refers to a baby as an "it" all the time to me doesn't show a very good impression of her and makes me think she's not that bothered. I want to make this clear that Im not saying she's a monster or anything. I just think it's something she doesn't care a whole lot about.
Jane didn't think that the fight was going to get to a point where hers and Kenny's life would be on the line. She mentions it if you let her leave and it's also proven when she guards her knife in the middle of the fight.
Well despite what she said to Clem, that's
debatable. She tells her "to stay out of it, you're gonna see what he really is", and what would that be which we haven't already seen from Kenny with what he did to Arvo? I think she knew exactly what he'd do to her after finding out what she made him think she'd done. When telling
Clem that she didn't think he'd go that far, i would argue that she may have only been saying that to get sympathy from Clem and for her to forgive her because after all she was furious with her and the dialogue shows that.
The person who put lives at danger in this scene is highly debatable. Jane's life (therefore AJ's whereabouts) is only at risk of being lost because someone decided that murder was the answer.
And once again, if she didn't do what she did, then there wouldn't have been the chance that Jane's life would be "lost" and not knowing AJ's whereabouts wouldn't have ever been a problem either because she wouldn't have been hidden unsafely.
but you gotta admit that AJ was pretty safe.
Nah i don't think we will admit that given the reasons above. I think what we need to admit here is that no matter what, we will always have different views on this scene and it will never be resolved. Agree to disagree as usual
Yes, Kenny's reaction was his own and it's his fault for not keeping a clear head, but had Jane not went out of her way to enrage him at tha… moret moment and previously, I'd highly doubt he'd have been as angry or at all. Oh, and there's always the fact she literally gave him the idea AJ was dead, promoting him to lose his shit.
That's very true but I think that what Jane was trying to do was pretty understandable and justified so I don't see Jane testing Kenny as a negative thing for many reasons that I'm not going to go into. I understand if you feel differently, although I disagree.
I'm sure walkers are capable of breaking windows,
I'm sure they can too. But I'm also pretty sure that that makes noise hence me mentioning that the car was pretty close to rest stop, meaning that Clem/Kenny/Jane could've spotted that walker and investigated it very easily.
leaving a baby unattended is still very dangerous
How so?… [view original content]
Let's try to keep our comments civil, please. While all of you make good points, and Jane was for better or worse the primary aggressor, I disagree with it being her's or Clementine's responsibility to keep Kenny calm. He had shown on multiple occasions that he was capable of acting irrationally and irresponsibly. Personally, I wouldn't want to travel with someone in a zombie apocalypse who was that much of a liability and had a "my way or the highway" attitude. Bonnie and Mike left for exactly that reason, though I'll admit the way they went about it was wrong on several levels. The point is no one wanted to keep walking on eggshells to "keep Kenny calm". Jane shouldn't have forced his hand though. My Clementine was coming to her own conclusion about him.
Fuck sake! She put FOUR people in danger, are you honestly denying this BetterToSleep?? Clem, AJ, Kenny and herself. She is to blame for eve… morerything that happened in that scene and before you bite my head off, i include Kenny as part of the blame for his actions, however, she "caused" him to react like that and you are defending her basically because you like her and seemingly not seeing what i see which is no surprise because IronWoodLover and BetterToSleep, we disagree 90% of the time. Oh and i know the reason why she left the windows open, i'm not an idiot but you felt the need to point that out so you must think i am, no surprise there. Thoughtful she may be and i thank her for that but thats not the fucking point here. And where did i say a walker would "pull" the window out? And how do you know they wouldn't have the ability to pull? I believe Winston and Clem were pulled back at the start of All That Remains? And Clem was grabbed at the… [view original content]
Ok, I'd be glad to give my reasons.
Did you forgive Kenny for leaving Lee (determinant) and killing/putting down Larry?
That's… more a tough one for me. In all the times I've played the first season of the game, I respected Kenny as a survivor and a friend, but by the second episode, it began to spiral downhill in spite of trying to maintain order among the group. Whether or not Larry would turn is still ambiguous, but when Kenny dropped the salt lick on Larry's head as I was trying to save the man's life. BAM! Shock and regret for Lilly were all I could express.
After escaping the farm, when he said there was going to be fallout and wondered what I thought...I always chose silence. So do I forgive him, sadly no I do not for both leaving Lee and killing Larry.
Did you forgive Lilly for shooting Doug or Carley and stealing the RV?
I've always played on the side of caution ever since after episode two, Lilly losing h… [view original content]
Her good intentions put everyone's life in danger and you feel her testing Kenny was acceptable? Why? Because there's a chance Clem "might" be in danger from Kenny when there was also a good chance he'd do nothing at all if he was kept calm? And the fact there could have been several different ways to get her point across to Clem which could have resulted in a safer way and done at a completely different time and not when they were in such a desperate situation already??
I thought you didn't want to argue over this particular subject?
Anyways, I'll just direct you to this thread. I explained as best as I could what I view and think of Jane's character (if you're looking particularly for the Kenny vs Jane relationship, just look at the last section of the comment). I found the result to be pretty satisfying and I recommend that you read it. Perhaps it may give you some insight into Jane's character (perhaps you should also try making something similar about Kenny in a future thread?). Feel free to continue this argument there and please if you can I'd like to refrain from directly talking about Kenny. He's dead in my playthrough for very strong, personal reasons that I explained over and over again. I made peace with my choice and I don't want to be re-living it and arguing about it every time I happen to comment in the TWD sub-forum.
Did you take into account that the blizzard could have masked the noise of a walker banging on a car as opposed to a baby making a noise? Also spotting a walker in that blizzard would have been pretty damn hard.
Theoretically, if Clem/Jane/Kenny can't hear the baby cry, walkers won't too. The blizzard had pretty much already calmed once the fight was over and a walker beating over a car is pretty noisy and viewable. Take into consideration that the car was stationed on the road next to the stop. Had anyone checked the surroundings (360º anyone?) and the hypothetical walker would've been spotted. And we're considering that walker would only get to the car with the baby's cry, right? I'm pretty sure that if walkers could hear the baby's cry then Clem/Kenny/Jane (all of them people without rotten hearing) could too.
And what about keeping the baby inside a rest stop?? And you know, not leaving a helpless child unattended?
That would go against what Jane had planned. And what attention did AJ need at the moment? If you read my comment in the other thread perhaps you can see that Jane wasn't planning on wasting more than ~5 minutes with her plan.
I feel she only looks out for AJ because of Clem and how much Clem tries to look after her. I honestly feel if Jane was on her own and had no one else around her, she would not look after a baby and I wouldn't be surprised if she left him or her to die if her own life was ever in danger. It's just when someone hints that their mother (Rebecca) should get rid of him when he's born, and when someone who refers to a baby as an "it" all the time to me doesn't show a very good impression of her and makes me think she's not that bothered. I want to make this clear that Im not saying she's a monster or anything. I just think it's something she doesn't care a whole lot about.
Well, I think otherwise. Try looking into the 'what Jane thinks and says vs what Jane actually does' topic in my other comment and perhaps you'll see that Jane did more for that baby's safe birth than most of the group. Oh and let's not forget (I did not mention this in the other thread) that she is the one who actually find the place for AJ to be born.
Well despite what she said to Clem, that's
debatable. She tells her "to stay out of it, you're gonna see what he really is", and what would that be which we haven't already seen from Kenny with what he did to Arvo? I think she knew exactly what he'd do to her after finding out what she made him think she'd done. When telling
Clem that she didn't think he'd go that far, i would argue that she may have only been saying that to get sympathy from Clem and for her to forgive her because after all she was furious with her and the dialogue shows that.
Sorry if I'm being too repetitive and relying on my other comment too much but, from my perspective (this is further explained in my other comment), Jane at the moment thought Clementine was completely ignorant to the magnitude of what Kenny had been doing. Therefore that statement can be interpreted in may ways. Perhaps she was trying to tell Clem, 'look at how unreasonably he reacts to things that he has no evidence of', or anything alike.
And once again, if she didn't do what she did, then there wouldn't have been the chance that Jane's life would be "lost" and not knowing AJ's whereabouts wouldn't have ever been a problem either because she wouldn't have been hidden unsafely.
And yet again, she never expected Kenny to go rogue and also never expected lives to be put in danger in the first place.
I know this was addressed to someone else but jumping into the convo again:
that's very true but I think that what Jane was trying to … moredo was pretty understandable and justified so I don't see Jane testing Kenny as a negative thing
Her good intentions put everyone's life in danger and you feel her testing Kenny was acceptable? Why? Because there's a chance Clem "might" be in danger from Kenny when there was also a good chance he'd do nothing at all if he was kept calm? And the fact there could have been several different ways to get her point across to Clem which could have resulted in a safer way and done at a completely different time and not when they were in such a desperate situation already??
I'm sure they can too. But I'm also pretty sure that that makes noise hence me mentioning that the car was pretty close to rest stop, meaning that Clem/Kenny/Jane could've spotted that walker and investigated it very easily.
… [view original content]
I've said what i have on this. You are entitled to disagree. All i'm saying is, that if it were me, i wouldn't want to leave a troubled friend behind because i'm a very loyal person. I would always try my best to help that person I care about. I certainly wouldn't bring out the worst in him by using the last ray of hope in his life (AJ's survival) and wickedly use that against him.
Let's try to keep our comments civil, please. While all of you make good points, and Jane was for better or worse the primary aggressor, I d… moreisagree with it being her's or Clementine's responsibility to keep Kenny calm. He had shown on multiple occasions that he was capable of acting irrationally and irresponsibly. Personally, I wouldn't want to travel with someone in a zombie apocalypse who was that much of a liability and had a "my way or the highway" attitude. Bonnie and Mike left for exactly that reason, though I'll admit the way they went about it was wrong on several levels. The point is no one wanted to keep walking on eggshells to "keep Kenny calm". Jane shouldn't have forced his hand though. My Clementine was coming to her own conclusion about him.
Ok i'll make this quick. You have an answer for everything i say and so do i. We will never agree on this and we will probably always argue if this is ever brought up again. I know it's my fault as
I guess i was asking for a backlash from you so i hold my hands up to that but right now Its 12.40am here, i'm tired and going to sleep. I really despise your opinions on Jane and that scene, i'm sorry but i just do and i will always think the opposite so let's leave it at that.
Her good intentions put everyone's life in danger and you feel her testing Kenny was acceptable? Why? Because there's a chance Clem "might" … morebe in danger from Kenny when there was also a good chance he'd do nothing at all if he was kept calm? And the fact there could have been several different ways to get her point across to Clem which could have resulted in a safer way and done at a completely different time and not when they were in such a desperate situation already??
I thought you didn't want to argue over this particular subject?
Anyways, I'll just direct you to this thread. I explained as best as I could what I view and think of Jane's character (if you're looking particularly for the Kenny vs Jane relationship, just look at the last section of the comment). I found the result to be pretty satisfying and I recommend that you read it. Perhaps it may give you some insight into Jane's character (perhaps you should also try making… [view original content]
Fuck sake! She put FOUR people in danger, are you honestly denying this BetterToSleep?? Clem, AJ, Kenny and herself. She is to blame for everything that happened in that scene and before you bite my head off, i include Kenny as part of the blame for his actions, however, she "caused" him to react like that and you are defending her basically because you like her and seemingly not seeing what i see which is no surprise because IronWoodLover and BetterToSleep, we disagree 90% of the time. Oh and i know the reason why she left the windows open, i'm not an idiot but you felt the need to point that out so you must think i am, no surprise there. Thoughtful she may be and i thank her for that but thats not the fucking point here.
I don't think that you are an idiot Dan, nor do I reply with comments which have a conflicting view just to get on your nerves. I have attempted to make this clear numerous times when we've interacted after you've said that I will disagree with you.
I truly want to apologize if I've caused you to feel this way. I respect everyone's opinion in the forum equally, though I hold you as one of the users that come up with great posts, and I even wished you luck when you were about to take your driving test. I wouldn't have cared for your new profile picture if I thought you are an idiot, but I do. I said that I was expectant to see it.
I know that Kenny is one of your favorites, and I like the fact that you and many others have accepted him and his behavior the way that they are. I cannot. I do not manage to. I deeply believe that he has acted wrongly on several occasions, and I cannot put that aside when looking at him. That said, I attempt to judge him equally compared to other characters on what he was and to become less biased on these topics with every comment.
And where did i say a walker would "pull" the window out? And how do you know they wouldn't have the ability to pull? I believe Winston and Clem were pulled back at the start of All That Remains? And Clem was grabbed at the drugstore in season 1 twice and surely when someone or something grabs you and you try to free yourself, that person or in this case a walker that holds on to you must be pulling you back so you don't get away?? Or will you deny that as well? Anyway a walker could easily have PUSHED the half open window through as well.
I was going at the fact that the walker would not use pulling as a means to get to a prey, as if, for example, a walker used its hands to hold onto the open window and balance itself backwards to break said window.
The baby dies then. I really couldn't give a shit on your opinion here just as you don't with mine but you thinking it was ok what she did handling AJ's safety is disgusting even for you. She shouldn't have fucking done what she did in the first place and realistically AJ would have died in the cold long before this anyway which boils down to bad BAD writing as far as I'm concerned.
I do care about your, and I agree that Season Two lacked on good writing on several instances. AJ should have realistically died before the firefight with Arvo's group took place.
It really does not matter about how good her intentions were for Clem's safety, that was irrelevant because of what actually ended up happening and the problems it caused. I'll say this a hundred fucking times, i don't mind. If she had not done what she did, AJ would be safe, Clem would be safe, Jane would be safe and Kenny would not have lost it. None of them would have died there and then. And just because she didn't like Kenny and because Clem didn't want to leave her troubled friend behind, she goes and does what she did forcing a dangerous situation upon them all because she didn't get what she wanted.
Jane is not one of my favorites, but I feel like I need to jump into the discussion when I perceive that she is not being judged fairly. It is important to take into consideration what her motives were because we are judging her, not the writing. The plan turned out to work awfully because she underestimated Kenny's care toward AJ. I agree with that. But it does not mean that she intended for that to happen.
I get that you like Jane, i really do and you may not think this but i do respect that and have never tried to change your opinion. I am sorry that my post has been very aggressive but i feel very strongly about this scene and it annoys me when certain people put all of the blame only on Kenny here. Even if it was another character like Luke or Rebecca, i'd still think Jane's actions are disgusting despite her intentions. I'm sorry and that will never change.
That is where we differ—I am here to offer a different opinion and I would love for others to offer a different one to me. I joined this forum to challenge what others think and in hope that others do the same. I would like to hold the opinion that makes the most sense and is the most fair. I am happy to adopt others' opinions anytime if I come to the conclusion that they make more sense.
If you are not willing to hear me offer an alternative outlook—which, at this point, is clear that you reject—maybe I should refrain from replying to your comment, and I say this with the best of intentions.
Fuck sake! She put FOUR people in danger, are you honestly denying this BetterToSleep?? Clem, AJ, Kenny and herself. She is to blame for eve… morerything that happened in that scene and before you bite my head off, i include Kenny as part of the blame for his actions, however, she "caused" him to react like that and you are defending her basically because you like her and seemingly not seeing what i see which is no surprise because IronWoodLover and BetterToSleep, we disagree 90% of the time. Oh and i know the reason why she left the windows open, i'm not an idiot but you felt the need to point that out so you must think i am, no surprise there. Thoughtful she may be and i thank her for that but thats not the fucking point here. And where did i say a walker would "pull" the window out? And how do you know they wouldn't have the ability to pull? I believe Winston and Clem were pulled back at the start of All That Remains? And Clem was grabbed at the… [view original content]
Ok i'll make this quick. You have an answer for everything i say and so do i. We will never agree on this and we will probably always argue … moreif this is ever brought up again. I know it's my fault as
I guess i was asking for a backlash from you so i hold my hands up to that but right now Its 12.40am here, i'm tired and going to sleep. I really despise your opinions on Jane and that scene, i'm sorry but i just do and i will always think the opposite so let's leave it at that.
Sorry for any offence caused
I know that Kenny is one of your favorites, and I like the fact that you and many others have accepted him and his behavior the way that they are. I cannot. I do not manage to. I deeply believe that he has acted wrongly on several occasions, and I cannot put that aside when looking at him.
I respect you for your opinion on Kenny and can actually understand many of the reasons you'd dislike him, but to me and from what I can tell @dan290786 , it seems that you're washing over Jane's actions in order to present her in a better light, whilst judging more harshly on Kenny's. There's no denying that Kenny has acted wrong on nearly an uncountable number of times, but I stand by the point, many of them have had very good intentions and a lot of the time, he's doing it to help someone, whether that be his family, a friend, or the group. Now, I'm not denying that Jane also has good intentions, but to me, her actions outweighed them.
Jane is not one of my favorites, but I feel like I need to jump into the discussion when I perceive that she is not being judged fairly. It is important to take into consideration what her motives were because we are judging her, not the writing. The plan turned out to work awfully because she underestimated Kenny's care toward AJ. I agree with that. But it does not mean that she intended for that to happen.
Yes, it is very important to take into consideration her motives, but I also think you need to understand how Jane decided to go about achieving these goals. She used an unstable man's declining mental health and anger issues against him by pretending a baby had died, to force an 11 year old child, who'd known the man for a couple of years and had already gone through enough trauma, to choice between him and Jane, both of whom she'd the option to build relationships with, all so Jane could prove her point was right all along. To me, that's fairly flippin' ruthless, and also to say that Jane had underestimated and not suspected how Kenny would react is false. She'd seen already that he nearly always reacts with anger whenever in a stressful situation, and knew dead well that he saw AJ as a second chance to be a better father, because of how obviously devoted Kenny was to the child. So, you saying that Jane didn't know Kenny wouldn't resort to a murderous rage if she didn't return with the baby alive, not to mention having previously given him reasons not to trust her anyway, actually underestimates Jane's character and her intelligence.
Fuck sake! She put FOUR people in danger, are you honestly denying this BetterToSleep?? Clem, AJ, Kenny and herself. She is to blame for eve… morerything that happened in that scene and before you bite my head off, i include Kenny as part of the blame for his actions, however, she "caused" him to react like that and you are defending her basically because you like her and seemingly not seeing what i see which is no surprise because IronWoodLover and BetterToSleep, we disagree 90% of the time. Oh and i know the reason why she left the windows open, i'm not an idiot but you felt the need to point that out so you must think i am, no surprise there. Thoughtful she may be and i thank her for that but thats not the fucking point here.
I don't think that you are an idiot Dan, nor do I reply with comments which have a conflicting view just to get on your nerves. I have attempted to make this clear numerous times when we've interacted after you've s… [view original content]
He had shown on multiple occasions that he was capable of acting irrationally and irresponsibly. Personally, I wouldn't want to travel with someone in a zombie apocalypse who was that much of a liability and had a "my way or the highway" attitude.
Obviously you're completely entitled for your opinion and view on Kenny, but I'd like to point out that I don't believe Kenny's as capable at controlling his anger then that of most people. It's no secret that he's clearly suffering from serious mental health issues and trouble with his past, so I just think that needs to be looked at when put into consideration when judging him. A lot of the times, Kenny doesn't behave these ways because he necessarily wants to, but because he has issues with controlling his intense emotions, the most dominant being anger, which he's shown to react often times later.
Let's try to keep our comments civil, please. While all of you make good points, and Jane was for better or worse the primary aggressor, I d… moreisagree with it being her's or Clementine's responsibility to keep Kenny calm. He had shown on multiple occasions that he was capable of acting irrationally and irresponsibly. Personally, I wouldn't want to travel with someone in a zombie apocalypse who was that much of a liability and had a "my way or the highway" attitude. Bonnie and Mike left for exactly that reason, though I'll admit the way they went about it was wrong on several levels. The point is no one wanted to keep walking on eggshells to "keep Kenny calm". Jane shouldn't have forced his hand though. My Clementine was coming to her own conclusion about him.
I don't think that you are an idiot Dan, nor do I reply with comments which have a conflicting view just to get on your nerves. I have attempted to make this clear numerous times when we've interacted after you've said that I will disagree with you.
Yes i know and i apologise. I guess you could say i had a Kenny moment and lost my temper. I know that was never your intention. I just feel very strongly on this subject and get annoyed at certain things that are said. Telltale definitely did a good job for this to still be argued upon after 2 years even though the scene is awful and i'd change everything about it.
I truly want to apologize if I've caused you to feel this way. I respect everyone's opinion in the forum equally, though I hold you as one of the users that come up with great posts, and I even wished you luck when you were about to take your driving test. I wouldn't have cared for your new profile picture if I thought you are an idiot, but I do. I said that I was expectant to see it.
I know and again i am sorry. It wasn't me making a personal attack on you that was intentional, this is why you have your view on this and i have mine. I shouldn't have been so aggressive and that doesn't happen often.
I know that Kenny is one of your favorites, and I like the fact that you and many others have accepted him and his behavior the way that they are. I cannot. I do not manage to. I deeply believe that he has acted wrongly on several occasions, and I cannot put that aside when looking at him. That said, I attempt to judge him equally compared to other characters on what he was and to become less biased on these topics with every comment.
Yes and i do respect that you try to treat his character equally, i have seen that many times. One thing i do like is that you don't use sickening expletives to demean his character unlike Everyone'sClemInTime who despite the fact we have some things in common such as being big fans of the Uncharted series, some of the things he has said about Kenny is extremely strong and over the top in my opinion and this is the thing that i get annoyed with the most. It's not so much people not liking Kenny but more so when i hear extreme death wishes or comments like he shouldn't have been born and stuff like that. It's very hard to hear when one of your favourite characters is slated in such a way. I'm sure if Jane or whoever Everyone'sClemInTime fav character is that you both would equally feel annoyed about it.
I was going at the fact that the walker would not use pulling as a means to get to a prey, as if, for example, a walker used its hands to hold onto the open window and balance itself backwards to break said window.
I see. I guess not given it's pea sized brain but i imagine an open window would be easier to push loose than a close one.
Jane is not one of my favorites,
Oh for some reason I always thought Jane was your favourite? I retract my earlier assumption in that case. Who is your favourite character? I don't believe I've ever asked you?
but I feel like I need to jump into the discussion when I perceive that she is not being judged fairly.
No that's fine. I guess i would be asking for people to jump into a conversation whenever Jane and Kenny are mentioned in the same sentence lol. I am the same, i'm always quick to defend him when i feel he is not being judged fairly or if people are just abusing his character (which is fine as long as it's not too extreme in my view).
It is important to take into consideration what her motives were because we are judging her, not the writing. The plan turned out to work awfully because she underestimated Kenny's care toward AJ. I agree with that. But it does not mean that she intended for that to happen.
Here's the thing, people assume i hate Jane but i really don't. I do dislike her but hate is too strong. It was mainly that final scene that i really disliked her for despite intentions of good. I also disliked a number of things she had done or more so the way she came across in certain situations before that final scene but that was what ruined everything for me. I don't "hate" any character though, even Larry who i really REALLY disliked but looking back i strangely miss the guy with charm coming out of his ass. Every season 1 character in my opinion was written perfectly but Season 2's characters were a big let down.
I know Jane never intended for it to happen the way she did but after seeing what he was capable of doing to Arvo and how easily he'd get angry, the "fuck you" line set him off instantly, Jane should have known (or in my opinion) she knew that this plan of hers would have made him much angrier than a curse word given how much he cared for AJ and it was just such an unneeded thing to do to put everyone in danger like that and during a time they were virtually lost in the storm. You've heard my say and i get yours, let's not dwell on that anymore.
That is where we differ—I am here to offer a different opinion and I would love for others to offer a different one to me. I joined this forum to challenge what others think and in hope that others do the same. I would like to hold the opinion that makes the most sense and is the most fair. I am happy to adopt others' opinions anytime if I come to the conclusion that they make more sense.
Again that's fine.
If you are not willing to hear me offer an alternative outlook—which, at this point, is clear that you reject—maybe I should refrain from replying to your comment, and I say this with the best of intentions
No it's fine for you to reply to me still, like i said, i lost my temper in that post and shouldn't have reacted like that.
Ps. Thanks for the compliment of the profile pic, glad you like it.
Fuck sake! She put FOUR people in danger, are you honestly denying this BetterToSleep?? Clem, AJ, Kenny and herself. She is to blame for eve… morerything that happened in that scene and before you bite my head off, i include Kenny as part of the blame for his actions, however, she "caused" him to react like that and you are defending her basically because you like her and seemingly not seeing what i see which is no surprise because IronWoodLover and BetterToSleep, we disagree 90% of the time. Oh and i know the reason why she left the windows open, i'm not an idiot but you felt the need to point that out so you must think i am, no surprise there. Thoughtful she may be and i thank her for that but thats not the fucking point here.
I don't think that you are an idiot Dan, nor do I reply with comments which have a conflicting view just to get on your nerves. I have attempted to make this clear numerous times when we've interacted after you've s… [view original content]
Yes i know and i apologise. I guess you could say i had a Kenny moment and lost my temper. I know that was never your intention. I just feel very strongly on this subject and get annoyed at certain things that are said. Telltale definitely did a good job for this to still be argued upon after 2 years even though the scene is awful and i'd change everything about it.
No worries, Dan, honestly. We all have our moments sometimes, and I am glad that I was the drain instead of something else in real life that would've bitten you back later.
I know and again i am sorry. It wasn't me making a personal attack on you that was intentional, this is why you have your view on this and i have mine. I shouldn't have been so aggressive and that doesn't happen often.
Same as above—don't worry about it.
Yes and i do respect that you try to treat his character equally, i have seen that many times. One thing i do like is that you don't use sickening expletives to demean his character unlike Everyone'sClemInTime who despite the fact we have some things in common such as being big fans of the Uncharted series, some of the things he has said about Kenny is extremely strong and over the top in my opinion and this is the thing that i get annoyed with the most. It's not so much people not liking Kenny but more so when i hear extreme death wishes or comments like he shouldn't have been born and stuff like that. It's very hard to hear when one of your favourite characters is slated in such a way. I'm sure if Jane or whoever Everyone'sClemInTime fav character is that you both would equally feel annoyed about it.
I can understand this. I try not to go out of my way to be harsh to Kenny, since doing that seems unfair to me. Besides, lots of people here like Kenny, and using demeaning expressions doesn't contribute to them hearing what I have to say, one bit.
I see. I guess not given it's pea sized brain but i imagine an open window would be easier to push loose than a close one.
That sounds likely. Physics is not my forte though, so I really wouldn't be able to confirm.
Oh for some reason I always thought Jane was your favourite? I retract my earlier assumption in that case. Who is your favourite character? I don't believe I've ever asked you?
I do not have established favorites, though some characters that I really liked are Lilly and Norma, with others such as Kat, Shel, Boyd, Jane, Oak, Bonnie, Carver Paige, Captain Pete and Clem tagging behind. To a lesser extent, I also like Sarah, Samantha, Alex and Vince.
Here's the thing, people assume i hate Jane but i really don't. I do dislike her but hate is too strong. It was mainly that final scene that i really disliked her for despite intentions of good. I also disliked a number of things she had done or more so the way she came across in certain situations before that final scene but that was what ruined everything for me. I don't "hate" any character though, even Larry who i really REALLY disliked but looking back i strangely miss the guy with charm coming out of his ass. Every season 1 character in my opinion was written perfectly but Season 2's characters were a big let down.
This makes quite a lot of sense. You might give the impression that you hate Jane and I might give one that she is my favorite, but I attribute this to the fact that—generally speaking—we only refer to Jane when discussing the plan that involved AJ.
I know Jane never intended for it to happen the way she did but after seeing what he was capable of doing to Arvo and how easily he'd get angry, the "fuck you" line set him off instantly, Jane should have known (or in my opinion) she knew that this plan of hers would have made him much angrier than a curse word given how much he cared for AJ and it was just such an unneeded thing to do to put everyone in danger like that and during a time they were virtually lost in the storm. You've heard my say and i get yours, let's not dwell on that anymore.
I see your point, but let's leave it at that. LOL.
No it's fine for you to reply to me still, like i said, i lost my temper in that post and shouldn't have reacted like that.
Great! I look forward to discussing Season 3 in the future. And maybe other topics too if they surface.
Ps. Thanks for the compliment of the profile pic, glad you like it.
@BetterToSleep
I don't think that you are an idiot Dan, nor do I reply with comments which have a conflicting view just to get on your… more nerves. I have attempted to make this clear numerous times when we've interacted after you've said that I will disagree with you.
Yes i know and i apologise. I guess you could say i had a Kenny moment and lost my temper. I know that was never your intention. I just feel very strongly on this subject and get annoyed at certain things that are said. Telltale definitely did a good job for this to still be argued upon after 2 years even though the scene is awful and i'd change everything about it.
I truly want to apologize if I've caused you to feel this way. I respect everyone's opinion in the forum equally, though I hold you as one of the users that come up with great posts, and I even wished you luck when you were about to take your driving test. I wouldn't have cared for your new profile pi… [view original content]
Ok, I'd be glad to give my reasons.
Did you forgive Kenny for leaving Lee (determinant) and killing/putting down Larry?
That's… more a tough one for me. In all the times I've played the first season of the game, I respected Kenny as a survivor and a friend, but by the second episode, it began to spiral downhill in spite of trying to maintain order among the group. Whether or not Larry would turn is still ambiguous, but when Kenny dropped the salt lick on Larry's head as I was trying to save the man's life. BAM! Shock and regret for Lilly were all I could express.
After escaping the farm, when he said there was going to be fallout and wondered what I thought...I always chose silence. So do I forgive him, sadly no I do not for both leaving Lee and killing Larry.
Did you forgive Lilly for shooting Doug or Carley and stealing the RV?
I've always played on the side of caution ever since after episode two, Lilly losing h… [view original content]
Did you forgive Lilly for shooting Doug or Carley and stealing the RV?
Yes. I knew Lilly was only trying to think which is safe for the group and she was the only one who really knew about the supplies being stolen. Though it is hard to forgive her for shooting Carley.
Did you forgive Rebecca for being mean to Clementine?
Yes. She eventually started to warm up to Clem, even if Clementine does end up confronting her about whose baby it is.
Did you forgive Bonnie for lying at the ski lodge and later deserting the group?
In my gameplay Bonnie was nice to Clem and panicked about when she got shot. Also I consider what Bonnie did was in character, she just wanted to be safe, hence why she was at Howes in the first place and she didn't feel that with the group anymore.
As for the rest, it's hard for me to explain with a yes or no answer without making no sense.
I know it ain't easy amongst the Walking Dead universe to be forgivable. But I try to hold on to humanity. I maybe a cynic at times, but I'm not that far gone.
* He never left me and I helped him kill Larry.
* No. I left her ass. (I'd still like to see her in S3 though. It'd be interesting.)
* Yea… moreh, I'll be honest, carrying a baby that might not even be mine with zombies running about, I'd probably be a dick to someone too.
* Nick, although it was a foolish thing, he had good intentions. I forgave him.
* I forgave Bonnie for everything except leaving me. She was also a asshole to me before she left.
* Jane is dead. I think that's all you need to know.
If our humanity gone we can't call our self people any more
We can call ore self anything but peoples cuz the only think that was make us peoples is the humanity
I know it ain't easy amongst the Walking Dead universe to be forgivable. But I try to hold on to humanity. I maybe a cynic at times, but I'm not that far gone.
Also, you realize I'm not that forgivable. If you've read, I liked Kenny (more or less) but ever since Episode 2 of Season 1, he became difficult and hard to reason with. He had good qualities but he was rash and impulsive. Didn't think things through. Sometimes, I don't think things through as well, but at least I'm cautious of the consequences and I'm willing to listen to others.
If our humanity gone we can't call our self people any more
We can call ore self anything but peoples cuz the only think that was make us peoples is the humanity
I feel yea i was just watching the best friend hate kenny on youtube i saw how they treat kenny it was so horribel
I hated kenny deeply in my blood but i never treat him like they did cuz i new he was mean good and lost so much but still I HATE HIM
True that.
Also, you realize I'm not that forgivable. If you've read, I liked Kenny (more or less) but ever since Episode 2 of Season 1, … morehe became difficult and hard to reason with. He had good qualities but he was rash and impulsive. Didn't think things through. Sometimes, I don't think things through as well, but at least I'm cautious of the consequences and I'm willing to listen to others.
Comments
Leaving a baby that could easily have frozen to death/made a noise to draw attention is not a good plan at all. She put 4 lives in danger to try to prove her point. No matter how good her intentions for Clem, she was just as in the wrong on many levels and there could have been another way to prove her point.
Not here to cause any arguments but I don't see how being inside a car is more dangerous than being in someone's arms or on the ground. AJ wasn't at risk, he was fairly close to the rest stop so if he attracted any walkers Jane, Clem and Kenny would be close enough to save him.
I forgive Kenny, Bonnie
Leaving him in a freezing car, windows slightly open where any walker could potentially get in and kill him? There is no fucking defending that for christ sake. By the way I didn't say it was more dangerous but if she hadn't done what she did then Kenny wouldn't have become dangerous, AJ wouldn't be in danger anf Clem wouldn't have been put in harmd way when trying to stop both of them.
I forgive no one, they're all on my list, Sociopath Clem is harsh.
The fact that the window was open shows that she made sure that AJ would have an uninterrupted supply of oxygen, and at the same time, it makes more likely that somebody would be able to hear him if something happened to Jane herself. Whether the window is open or closed does not make more or less possible for the walkers to break the door, as they only push—not pull.
Keeping a newborn inside a car is arguably better than carrying him in the open, in the middle of a raging blizzard. He is not as exposed to cold currents of wind, and therefore, he is less vulnerable to viruses, frostbite, and hypothermia.
Jane was not trying to prove the point that ice cream is better than cake. She was trying to show Clementine that Kenny could eventually cause Clementine and AJ harm, be it consciously or subconsciously.
That may very well be true, but you can't deny leaving a newborn baby, who obliviously has no way to potentially defend himself from walkers and other threats in a zombie apocalypse, alone and unattended is not just incredibly reckless and stupid, but shows that Jane has very little care for AJ's life. If she was in anyway worried about his safety, she wouldn't have taken such a huge risk and left a baby completely on his own.
I mean, had Kenny killed Jane (which he did in my playthrough) and AJ did not start crying at a very convenient time, there would have been no way for Clementine and Kenny to know he was alive, or his location. Again showing a severe lack of care Jane had towards AJ, who'd she simply saw as a means to use in order to prove her point about Kenny.
She used a living, breathing human child as an excuse to bring Kenny to the brink of madness, knowing dead well how he'd react with her having seen how his previous behaviours in stressful situations. There's no excuse or justification, at least in my opinion, for her actions even if she did think she was doing it for the best.
Nope, she got the living, breathing human child to a safe place and used a hypothetical situation to bring a reaction out of Kenny. The madness came from Kenny and only him.
Therefore he was in a closed car (and as far as I know zombies can't open cars???) and not in the middle of a building or something.
Jane wasn't counting on Kenny trying to murder her, obviously.
Yes, Kenny's reaction was his own and it's his fault for not keeping a clear head, but had Jane not went out of her way to enrage him at that moment and previously, I'd highly doubt he'd have been as angry or at all. Oh, and there's always the fact she literally gave him the idea AJ was dead, promoting him to lose his shit.
I'm sure walkers are capable of breaking windows, but even if they couldn't, leaving a baby unattended is still very dangerous and gives insight that Jane doesn't give a hoot about him, willing to leave the child whenever it suits her.
I'm sure Jane had confidence she'd survive, but she was still reckless enough to take the risk, putting her life, Kenny's and AJ's lives all in danger (Clementine's to a lesser extent), which once again, shows she really has little regard for AJ. To take a risk like that with someone's life, especially a baby's, truly demonstrates Jane's ruthless streak.If this was a women who's as caring as @BetterToSleep described, she wouldn't have even thought of the plan.
Fuck sake! She put FOUR people in danger, are you honestly denying this BetterToSleep?? Clem, AJ, Kenny and herself. She is to blame for everything that happened in that scene and before you bite my head off, i include Kenny as part of the blame for his actions, however, she "caused" him to react like that and you are defending her basically because you like her and seemingly not seeing what i see which is no surprise because IronWoodLover and BetterToSleep, we disagree 90% of the time. Oh and i know the reason why she left the windows open, i'm not an idiot but you felt the need to point that out so you must think i am, no surprise there. Thoughtful she may be and i thank her for that but thats not the fucking point here. And where did i say a walker would "pull" the window out? And how do you know they wouldn't have the ability to pull? I believe Winston and Clem were pulled back at the start of All That Remains? And Clem was grabbed at the drugstore in season 1 twice and surely when someone or something grabs you and you try to free yourself, that person or in this case a walker that holds on to you must be pulling you back so you don't get away?? Or will you deny that as well? Anyway a walker could easily have PUSHED the half open window through as well. The baby dies then. I really couldn't give a shit on your opinion here just as you don't with mine but you thinking it was ok what she did handling AJ's safety is disgusting even for you. She shouldn't have fucking done what she did in the first place and realistically AJ would have died in the cold long before this anyway which boils down to bad BAD writing as far as I'm concerned.
It really does not matter about how good her intentions were for Clem's safety, that was irrelevant because of what actually ended up happening and the problems it caused. I'll say this a hundred fucking times, i don't mind. If she had not done what she did, AJ would be safe, Clem would be safe, Jane would be safe and Kenny would not have lost it. None of them would have died there and then. And just because she didn't like Kenny and because Clem didn't want to leave her troubled friend behind, she goes and does what she did forcing a dangerous situation upon them all because she didn't get what she wanted.
I get that you like Jane, i really do and you may not think this but i do respect that and have never tried to change your opinion. I am sorry that my post has been very aggressive but i feel very strongly about this scene and it annoys me when certain people put all of the blame only on Kenny here. Even if it was another character like Luke or Rebecca, i'd still think Jane's actions are disgusting despite her intentions. I'm sorry and that will never change.
That's very true but I think that what Jane was trying to do was pretty understandable and justified so I don't see Jane testing Kenny as a negative thing for many reasons that I'm not going to go into. I understand if you feel differently, although I disagree.
I'm sure they can too. But I'm also pretty sure that that makes noise hence me mentioning that the car was pretty close to rest stop, meaning that Clem/Kenny/Jane could've spotted that walker and investigated it very easily.
How so? Being in a car is better than being out there in the cold.
No, it really doesn't. If Jane didn't care for this baby she would've really left him.
Jane didn't think that the fight was going to get to a point where hers and Kenny's life would be on the line. She mentions it if you let her leave and it's also proven when she guards her knife in the middle of the fight.
The person who put lives at danger in this scene is highly debatable. Jane's life (therefore AJ's whereabouts) is only at risk of being lost because someone decided that murder was the answer.
The only thing that I'm trying to point out here is that Jane did all she could to ensure AJ's safety. It's fine if you don't agree with what she did before and why she did it, but you gotta admit that AJ was pretty safe.
Well said dan
I know this was addressed to someone else but jumping into the convo again:
Her good intentions put everyone's life in danger and you feel her testing Kenny was acceptable? Why? Because there's a chance Clem "might" be in danger from Kenny when there was also a good chance he'd do nothing at all if he was kept calm? And the fact there could have been several different ways to get her point across to Clem which could have resulted in a safer way and done at a completely different time and not when they were in such a desperate situation already??
Did you take into account that the blizzard could have masked the noise of a walker banging on a car as opposed to a baby making a noise? Also spotting a walker in that blizzard would have been pretty damn hard.
And what about keeping the baby inside a rest stop?? And you know, not leaving a helpless child unattended?
I feel she only looks out for AJ because of Clem and how much Clem tries to look after her. I honestly feel if Jane was on her own and had no one else around her, she would not look after a baby and I wouldn't be surprised if she left him or her to die if her own life was ever in danger. It's just when someone hints that their mother (Rebecca) should get rid of him when he's born, and when someone who refers to a baby as an "it" all the time to me doesn't show a very good impression of her and makes me think she's not that bothered. I want to make this clear that Im not saying she's a monster or anything. I just think it's something she doesn't care a whole lot about.
Well despite what she said to Clem, that's
debatable. She tells her "to stay out of it, you're gonna see what he really is", and what would that be which we haven't already seen from Kenny with what he did to Arvo? I think she knew exactly what he'd do to her after finding out what she made him think she'd done. When telling
Clem that she didn't think he'd go that far, i would argue that she may have only been saying that to get sympathy from Clem and for her to forgive her because after all she was furious with her and the dialogue shows that.
And once again, if she didn't do what she did, then there wouldn't have been the chance that Jane's life would be "lost" and not knowing AJ's whereabouts wouldn't have ever been a problem either because she wouldn't have been hidden unsafely.
Nah i don't think we will admit that given the reasons above. I think what we need to admit here is that no matter what, we will always have different views on this scene and it will never be resolved. Agree to disagree as usual
Let's try to keep our comments civil, please. While all of you make good points, and Jane was for better or worse the primary aggressor, I disagree with it being her's or Clementine's responsibility to keep Kenny calm. He had shown on multiple occasions that he was capable of acting irrationally and irresponsibly. Personally, I wouldn't want to travel with someone in a zombie apocalypse who was that much of a liability and had a "my way or the highway" attitude. Bonnie and Mike left for exactly that reason, though I'll admit the way they went about it was wrong on several levels. The point is no one wanted to keep walking on eggshells to "keep Kenny calm". Jane shouldn't have forced his hand though. My Clementine was coming to her own conclusion about him.
I agree wholeheartedly. Our reasoning and choices our quite close to the same. :-)
I thought you didn't want to argue over this particular subject?
Anyways, I'll just direct you to this thread. I explained as best as I could what I view and think of Jane's character (if you're looking particularly for the Kenny vs Jane relationship, just look at the last section of the comment). I found the result to be pretty satisfying and I recommend that you read it. Perhaps it may give you some insight into Jane's character (perhaps you should also try making something similar about Kenny in a future thread?). Feel free to continue this argument there and please if you can I'd like to refrain from directly talking about Kenny. He's dead in my playthrough for very strong, personal reasons that I explained over and over again. I made peace with my choice and I don't want to be re-living it and arguing about it every time I happen to comment in the TWD sub-forum.
Theoretically, if Clem/Jane/Kenny can't hear the baby cry, walkers won't too. The blizzard had pretty much already calmed once the fight was over and a walker beating over a car is pretty noisy and viewable. Take into consideration that the car was stationed on the road next to the stop. Had anyone checked the surroundings (360º anyone?) and the hypothetical walker would've been spotted. And we're considering that walker would only get to the car with the baby's cry, right? I'm pretty sure that if walkers could hear the baby's cry then Clem/Kenny/Jane (all of them people without rotten hearing) could too.
That would go against what Jane had planned. And what attention did AJ need at the moment? If you read my comment in the other thread perhaps you can see that Jane wasn't planning on wasting more than ~5 minutes with her plan.
Well, I think otherwise. Try looking into the 'what Jane thinks and says vs what Jane actually does' topic in my other comment and perhaps you'll see that Jane did more for that baby's safe birth than most of the group. Oh and let's not forget (I did not mention this in the other thread) that she is the one who actually find the place for AJ to be born.
Sorry if I'm being too repetitive and relying on my other comment too much but, from my perspective (this is further explained in my other comment), Jane at the moment thought Clementine was completely ignorant to the magnitude of what Kenny had been doing. Therefore that statement can be interpreted in may ways. Perhaps she was trying to tell Clem, 'look at how unreasonably he reacts to things that he has no evidence of', or anything alike.
And yet again, she never expected Kenny to go rogue and also never expected lives to be put in danger in the first place.
I've said what i have on this. You are entitled to disagree. All i'm saying is, that if it were me, i wouldn't want to leave a troubled friend behind because i'm a very loyal person. I would always try my best to help that person I care about. I certainly wouldn't bring out the worst in him by using the last ray of hope in his life (AJ's survival) and wickedly use that against him.
Sorry but that's how I feel.
Ok i'll make this quick. You have an answer for everything i say and so do i. We will never agree on this and we will probably always argue if this is ever brought up again. I know it's my fault as
I guess i was asking for a backlash from you so i hold my hands up to that but right now Its 12.40am here, i'm tired and going to sleep. I really despise your opinions on Jane and that scene, i'm sorry but i just do and i will always think the opposite so let's leave it at that.
Sorry for any offence caused
I don't think that you are an idiot Dan, nor do I reply with comments which have a conflicting view just to get on your nerves. I have attempted to make this clear numerous times when we've interacted after you've said that I will disagree with you.
I truly want to apologize if I've caused you to feel this way. I respect everyone's opinion in the forum equally, though I hold you as one of the users that come up with great posts, and I even wished you luck when you were about to take your driving test. I wouldn't have cared for your new profile picture if I thought you are an idiot, but I do. I said that I was expectant to see it.
I know that Kenny is one of your favorites, and I like the fact that you and many others have accepted him and his behavior the way that they are. I cannot. I do not manage to. I deeply believe that he has acted wrongly on several occasions, and I cannot put that aside when looking at him. That said, I attempt to judge him equally compared to other characters on what he was and to become less biased on these topics with every comment.
I was going at the fact that the walker would not use pulling as a means to get to a prey, as if, for example, a walker used its hands to hold onto the open window and balance itself backwards to break said window.
I do care about your, and I agree that Season Two lacked on good writing on several instances. AJ should have realistically died before the firefight with Arvo's group took place.
Jane is not one of my favorites, but I feel like I need to jump into the discussion when I perceive that she is not being judged fairly. It is important to take into consideration what her motives were because we are judging her, not the writing. The plan turned out to work awfully because she underestimated Kenny's care toward AJ. I agree with that. But it does not mean that she intended for that to happen.
That is where we differ—I am here to offer a different opinion and I would love for others to offer a different one to me. I joined this forum to challenge what others think and in hope that others do the same. I would like to hold the opinion that makes the most sense and is the most fair. I am happy to adopt others' opinions anytime if I come to the conclusion that they make more sense.
If you are not willing to hear me offer an alternative outlook—which, at this point, is clear that you reject—maybe I should refrain from replying to your comment, and I say this with the best of intentions.
Why thank you. Did your choices follow similar or close to my reasons?
Why Jane gives up on everything so easily? She loves to care about herself mostly,
HAHA NOPE. I don't think that I ever will.
Of course I forgave her, after all the things that she's been through. She's also one of my favorites.
Yeah, I don't think that it was that big of a deal to begin with.
Yep! We all know that it was an accident and that he was just trying to protect Clementine and Luke. Besides, it was a complete accident.
She's a complete sweetheart, so I have to forgive her. Bonnie seems like the type who'd stick with people she really trusts, so I don't blame her.
Jane had good intentions, so yeah. I'm sure she didn't expect Kenny to have a titty attack over it.
Well, I mean, you just helped Kenny murder her father. It makes more sense for her to not help than Kenny.
Did you forgive Kenny for leaving Lee (determinant) and killing/putting down Larry?:
I sided with Kenny.
Did you forgive Lilly for shooting Doug or Carley and stealing the RV?:
Yes, even if this was a cold murder, she had nothing left, I've turned her into this with Kenny, but we had to do it for the group.
Did you forgive Rebecca for being mean to Clementine?:
In a way she was looking out for her group, we could say I forgive her even though I still think she was mean.
Did you forgive Ben 2.0 for shooting Matthew?:
Did you forgive Bonnie for lying at the ski lodge and later deserting the group?:
I've always kind of hated her so, no.
Did you forgive Jane for baiting Kenny and lying about AJ's fate/whereabouts?:
Fuck Jane.
I respect you for your opinion on Kenny and can actually understand many of the reasons you'd dislike him, but to me and from what I can tell @dan290786 , it seems that you're washing over Jane's actions in order to present her in a better light, whilst judging more harshly on Kenny's. There's no denying that Kenny has acted wrong on nearly an uncountable number of times, but I stand by the point, many of them have had very good intentions and a lot of the time, he's doing it to help someone, whether that be his family, a friend, or the group. Now, I'm not denying that Jane also has good intentions, but to me, her actions outweighed them.
Yes, it is very important to take into consideration her motives, but I also think you need to understand how Jane decided to go about achieving these goals. She used an unstable man's declining mental health and anger issues against him by pretending a baby had died, to force an 11 year old child, who'd known the man for a couple of years and had already gone through enough trauma, to choice between him and Jane, both of whom she'd the option to build relationships with, all so Jane could prove her point was right all along. To me, that's fairly flippin' ruthless, and also to say that Jane had underestimated and not suspected how Kenny would react is false. She'd seen already that he nearly always reacts with anger whenever in a stressful situation, and knew dead well that he saw AJ as a second chance to be a better father, because of how obviously devoted Kenny was to the child. So, you saying that Jane didn't know Kenny wouldn't resort to a murderous rage if she didn't return with the baby alive, not to mention having previously given him reasons not to trust her anyway, actually underestimates Jane's character and her intelligence.
Obviously you're completely entitled for your opinion and view on Kenny, but I'd like to point out that I don't believe Kenny's as capable at controlling his anger then that of most people. It's no secret that he's clearly suffering from serious mental health issues and trouble with his past, so I just think that needs to be looked at when put into consideration when judging him. A lot of the times, Kenny doesn't behave these ways because he necessarily wants to, but because he has issues with controlling his intense emotions, the most dominant being anger, which he's shown to react often times later.
@BetterToSleep
Yes i know and i apologise. I guess you could say i had a Kenny moment and lost my temper. I know that was never your intention. I just feel very strongly on this subject and get annoyed at certain things that are said. Telltale definitely did a good job for this to still be argued upon after 2 years even though the scene is awful and i'd change everything about it.
I know and again i am sorry. It wasn't me making a personal attack on you that was intentional, this is why you have your view on this and i have mine. I shouldn't have been so aggressive and that doesn't happen often.
Yes and i do respect that you try to treat his character equally, i have seen that many times. One thing i do like is that you don't use sickening expletives to demean his character unlike Everyone'sClemInTime who despite the fact we have some things in common such as being big fans of the Uncharted series, some of the things he has said about Kenny is extremely strong and over the top in my opinion and this is the thing that i get annoyed with the most. It's not so much people not liking Kenny but more so when i hear extreme death wishes or comments like he shouldn't have been born and stuff like that. It's very hard to hear when one of your favourite characters is slated in such a way. I'm sure if Jane or whoever Everyone'sClemInTime fav character is that you both would equally feel annoyed about it.
I see. I guess not given it's pea sized brain but i imagine an open window would be easier to push loose than a close one.
Oh for some reason I always thought Jane was your favourite? I retract my earlier assumption in that case. Who is your favourite character? I don't believe I've ever asked you?
No that's fine. I guess i would be asking for people to jump into a conversation whenever Jane and Kenny are mentioned in the same sentence lol. I am the same, i'm always quick to defend him when i feel he is not being judged fairly or if people are just abusing his character (which is fine as long as it's not too extreme in my view).
Here's the thing, people assume i hate Jane but i really don't. I do dislike her but hate is too strong. It was mainly that final scene that i really disliked her for despite intentions of good. I also disliked a number of things she had done or more so the way she came across in certain situations before that final scene but that was what ruined everything for me. I don't "hate" any character though, even Larry who i really REALLY disliked but looking back i strangely miss the guy with charm coming out of his ass. Every season 1 character in my opinion was written perfectly but Season 2's characters were a big let down.
I know Jane never intended for it to happen the way she did but after seeing what he was capable of doing to Arvo and how easily he'd get angry, the "fuck you" line set him off instantly, Jane should have known (or in my opinion) she knew that this plan of hers would have made him much angrier than a curse word given how much he cared for AJ and it was just such an unneeded thing to do to put everyone in danger like that and during a time they were virtually lost in the storm. You've heard my say and i get yours, let's not dwell on that anymore.
Again that's fine.
No it's fine for you to reply to me still, like i said, i lost my temper in that post and shouldn't have reacted like that.
Ps. Thanks for the compliment of the profile pic, glad you like it.
No worries, Dan, honestly. We all have our moments sometimes, and I am glad that I was the drain instead of something else in real life that would've bitten you back later.
Same as above—don't worry about it.
I can understand this. I try not to go out of my way to be harsh to Kenny, since doing that seems unfair to me. Besides, lots of people here like Kenny, and using demeaning expressions doesn't contribute to them hearing what I have to say, one bit.
That sounds likely. Physics is not my forte though, so I really wouldn't be able to confirm.
I do not have established favorites, though some characters that I really liked are Lilly and Norma, with others such as Kat, Shel, Boyd, Jane, Oak, Bonnie, Carver Paige, Captain Pete and Clem tagging behind. To a lesser extent, I also like Sarah, Samantha, Alex and Vince.
This makes quite a lot of sense. You might give the impression that you hate Jane and I might give one that she is my favorite, but I attribute this to the fact that—generally speaking—we only refer to Jane when discussing the plan that involved AJ.
I see your point, but let's leave it at that. LOL.
Great! I look forward to discussing Season 3 in the future. And maybe other topics too if they surface.
No problem! It's awesome!
NO
YES
YES
NO
YES
YES
you have my respect
Yes. I knew Lilly was only trying to think which is safe for the group and she was the only one who really knew about the supplies being stolen. Though it is hard to forgive her for shooting Carley.
Yes. She eventually started to warm up to Clem, even if Clementine does end up confronting her about whose baby it is.
In my gameplay Bonnie was nice to Clem and panicked about when she got shot. Also I consider what Bonnie did was in character, she just wanted to be safe, hence why she was at Howes in the first place and she didn't feel that with the group anymore.
As for the rest, it's hard for me to explain with a yes or no answer without making no sense.
Thank you. But out of curiosity, how and why have I earned your respect?
Because of your big forgiver heart
I know it ain't easy amongst the Walking Dead universe to be forgivable. But I try to hold on to humanity. I maybe a cynic at times, but I'm not that far gone.
Was that because you covered Luke instead of helping him?
If our humanity gone we can't call our self people any more
We can call ore self anything but peoples cuz the only think that was make us peoples is the humanity
I forgive everyone. Peace and love.
True that.
Also, you realize I'm not that forgivable. If you've read, I liked Kenny (more or less) but ever since Episode 2 of Season 1, he became difficult and hard to reason with. He had good qualities but he was rash and impulsive. Didn't think things through. Sometimes, I don't think things through as well, but at least I'm cautious of the consequences and I'm willing to listen to others.
I feel yea i was just watching the best friend hate kenny on youtube i saw how they treat kenny it was so horribel
I hated kenny deeply in my blood but i never treat him like they did cuz i new he was mean good and lost so much but still I HATE HIM