Shel would probably be more relatable than Jane because we know Becca and we've played as Shel as opposed to Jane, and Shel was there first anyway. At least, that's how I see it.
Shel a more relatable Jane.
I know its been a while, but can someone explain this to me.
Becca could have challenged Clementine in ways Sarah never did.
Well, whose fault is that?
When I hear "a more relatable Jane," I can't help but tilt my head and go "huh?!" From what I recall, Shel was nothing like Jane. Saying she's is more relatable at all is like saying the sky is blue.
It probably doesn't help that Shel is a top contender for my favorite 400 Days character, whereas I can't freakinstand Jane.
Unfortunately, it kinda validates my point of contention with this thread of opinion: you can't really say the 400 Days Group would've been a better supporting cast for Clementine than the Cabin Group without really stretching it and overglorifying what little separate screentime the former had over what vastly uneven screentime the latter did.
Shel would probably be more relatable than Jane because we know Becca and we've played as Shel as opposed to Jane, and Shel was there first anyway. At least, that's how I see it.
I mean, I do like Shel more than Jane, but people can/do change, so I imagine Shel might've become like Jane if she couldn't save Becca. She also could've maintained her 400 Days personality while filling Jane's role, in which case I think some scenes would've played differently. (For instance, she probably wouldn't have tried to leave Sarah or made out with Luke at a time like that.)
When I hear "a more relatable Jane," I can't help but tilt my head and go "huh?!" From what I recall, Shel was nothing like Jane. Saying she… more's is more relatable at all is like saying the sky is blue.
It probably doesn't help that Shel is a top contender for my favorite 400 Days character, whereas I can't freakin stand Jane.
Unfortunately, it kinda validates my point of contention with this thread of opinion: you can't really say the 400 Days Group would've been a better supporting cast for Clementine than the Cabin Group without really stretching it and overglorifying what little separate screentime the former had over what vastly uneven screentime the latter did.
I mean, I do like Shel more than Jane, but people can/do change, so I imagine Shel might've become like Jane if she couldn't save Becca. She… more also could've maintained her 400 Days personality while filling Jane's role, in which case I think some scenes would've played differently. (For instance, she probably wouldn't have tried to leave Sarah or made out with Luke at a time like that.)
Well, that's the tricky thing: do you go with the group who had separate introductions fresh off of Season 1's standing ovation yet were very distanced from Clementine or the group who she actually had mildly decent interaction with in Season 2('s best episode, in my opinion) who all came from the same area?
Also, I notice you left off Sarah and Nick; is that complement to their characters or did you just forget?
You have a point, but first impressions matter.
One could also argue that Carlos, Alvin, and to a lesser extent Luke and Rebecca (Mike an… mored Sarita also, but they were not part of the "cabin group" so.....), had the luxury of between 2 episodes and most of the season to intrigue us and engage us emotionally and by and large failed at that. Whereas Russell, Wyatt, Shel, Vince, and Bonnie only had a few short scenes to make an impact and they succeeded (in my opinion).
It was intentional. Sarah and Nick were the cabin group characters with the most complexity and potential, yet were the most brutality and unexpectedly cast-aside. Did anyone care when Alvin and Carlos died? Probably not. Whereas Telltale nudged us into being Sarah's reality check and Nick's confidante only to abruptly change direction.
Well, that's the tricky thing: do you go with the group who had separate introductions fresh off of Season 1's standing ovation yet were ver… morey distanced from Clementine or the group who she actually had mildly decent interaction with in Season 2('s best episode, in my opinion) who all came from the same area?
Also, I notice you left off Sarah and Nick; is that complement to their characters or did you just forget?
yeah completely agree. i kinda wish clem, had met and been apart of the 400 days cast in season 2 than with the cabin group . the cabin group characters just seem boring compared to the 400 days characters.
I really dont like how the developers minimized the actually role the 400 days cast had in season 2. I hope they fix this in season 3 id love to see more charecters from the 400 days show up in season 3 like rusell,vince,shel,becca,wyatt, also I feel like nate would of been a better villian than carver.
I really dont like how the developers minimized the actually role the 400 days cast had in season 2. I hope they fix this in season 3 id lov… moree to see more charecters from the 400 days show up in season 3 like rusell,vince,shel,becca,wyatt, also I feel like nate would of been a better villian than carver.
I feel like half the people who say that do so out of spite/sour grapes for how the Cabin Group, who lacked the separate backstory treatment, turned out.
yeah completely agree. i kinda wish clem, had met and been apart of the 400 days cast in season 2 than with the cabin group . the cabin group characters just seem boring compared to the 400 days characters.
i dont have any spite toward the cabin group,for not having much of a backstory, I just dont think they were as interesting characters as the 400 days cast was.plus we had more time to get to know them by playing 400days hence why I feel like they should of had a bigger role than the cabin group in season 2.
I feel like half the people who say that do so out of spite/sour grapes for how the Cabin Group, who lacked the separate backstory treatment, turned out.
While I agree that at least a few characters(namely Taavia, Becca, and probably Bonnie) should return in Season 3, Nate is not really high on my list. Both in terms of who should return and in general.
Again, the whole Nate>Carver thing is exactly what I'm iffy about, since we're comparing characters with different scopes and screentimes. Carver was definitely a Big Bad that should've played a more active role; Nate was an antagonist you'd see in an after school special. While YMMV, my problem with Carver was that he was corny and predictable: the moment I saw him, I immediately got "Social Darwinist," which fits well into this genre but there wasn't much else outside of that. Nate isn't much better, but at least there was some slight nebulousness to him in terms of his actions. However, I feel like there wouldn't be much to him in the series proper outside of "wild and crazy trucker," which kinda eh in my opinion given that we've spent so much time around rural and country areas.
Okay, since it was inevitably brought up at various points, what 400 Days character(s) matches up with what Season 2 character(s), whether it be by personality, role, or otherwise?
I'll start by explaining the Shel/Jane thing, which you seemed to take issue with. Props to @enzeruanimefan for coming close to explaining what I meant.
Having played as Shel in 400 Days makes us naturally more sympathetic toward her character. Whether we exchanged the relative safety and security of the truck stop for the freedom to follow our moral compass or (reluctantly) shot Stephanie to ensure Becca would know the comfort of a meal every day and a defensible shelter, we chose her path. Whereas Jane is presented with the intention of being polarising. Chances are you were either with her or against her, depending on your opinion of/emotional attachment to Kenny. Shel could fill the role of the "pragmatic survivor", while being a universally relatable character, because we would understand her motivations. Also having been firsthand witnesses to the dynamic between Shel and Becca, if a situation arose where Becca had to be "left behind", it likely wouldn't engender the anger or disgust some players felt toward Jane for leaving Jaime. Jane felt like a plot device in many ways, and I don't feel her character was treated fairly (or Kenny's for that matter) by the writers. Shel could fill Jane's shoes without being the token anti-Kenny (though by the final act, they unintentionally...or intentionally, had more in common than they could admit).
I will write a follow-up comment later pertaining to the other characters.
Okay, since it was inevitably brought up at various points, what 400 Days character(s) matches up with what Season 2 character(s), whether it be by personality, role, or otherwise?
That's...actually pretty astute. I can't believe the obvious parallels flew over my head. Then again, this is a very lovable character compared to a grey character that I legitimately hate.
Though, you did inspire another question that I'll ask as a separate comment.
Chances are you were either with her or against her, depending on your opinion of/emotional attachment to Kenny.
Okay, I'm gonna have to put my foot down and call bullshit on this one. The whole Kenny vs. Jane thing didn't really have any basis until literally the same episode(probably because Jane was introduced late in the story but still). Heck, Kenny actually kept to himself throughout most of Amid the Ruins, which I liked. Kinda like Sarah actually; I might have to take that into account at some point...
Also having been firsthand witnesses to the dynamic between Shel and Becca, if a situation arose where Becca had to be "left behind", it likely wouldn't engender the anger or disgust some players felt toward Jane for leaving Jaime.
Probably because some players really didn't like Becca. Though I hate Jane for a myriad of other reasons, that might be one that only counts if you completely demonize her.
I'll start by explaining the Shel/Jane thing, which you seemed to take issue with. Props to @enzeruanimefan for coming close to explaining w… morehat I meant.
Having played as Shel in 400 Days makes us naturally more sympathetic toward her character. Whether we exchanged the relative safety and security of the truck stop for the freedom to follow our moral compass or (reluctantly) shot Stephanie to ensure Becca would know the comfort of a meal every day and a defensible shelter, we chose her path. Whereas Jane is presented with the intention of being polarising. Chances are you were either with her or against her, depending on your opinion of/emotional attachment to Kenny. Shel could fill the role of the "pragmatic survivor", while being a universally relatable character, because we would understand her motivations. Also having been firsthand witnesses to the dynamic between Shel and Becca, if a situation arose where Becca had to be "left behind… [view original content]
Did anyone care when Alvin and Carlos died? Probably not.
I missed Alvin. He was my favorite character in the first episode and he's the one screwup My!Clementine went through on my first playthrough.
Carlos did a lot more to warrant being disliked and his death served a purpose.
Whereas Telltale nudged us into being Sarah's reality check and Nick's confidante only to abruptly change direction.
Yeah, that's one of the many-x-20 things I hate about how Sarah in particular was written off. Stick to your guns! Either go big or go home!
Nick is definitely the example of how the Cabin Group fell by the wayside as the Season progressed. I never really got into the guy, so I feel like the silver lining I see with his canon death isn't really being sensitive to his fans.
It was intentional. Sarah and Nick were the cabin group characters with the most complexity and potential, yet were the most brutality and u… morenexpectedly cast-aside. Did anyone care when Alvin and Carlos died? Probably not. Whereas Telltale nudged us into being Sarah's reality check and Nick's confidante only to abruptly change direction.
Whereas Telltale nudged us into being Sarah's reality check and Nick's confidante only to abruptly change direction.
In my opinion Sarah was all about being too little to late, from the moment you meet her its clearly too late, her dad sheltered her too much and she was too immature to adapt. If anything it went a weird left field in her determinant final scene with her yelling for help
It was intentional. Sarah and Nick were the cabin group characters with the most complexity and potential, yet were the most brutality and u… morenexpectedly cast-aside. Did anyone care when Alvin and Carlos died? Probably not. Whereas Telltale nudged us into being Sarah's reality check and Nick's confidante only to abruptly change direction.
In my opinion Sarah was all about being too little to late...it went a weird left field in her determinant final scene with her yelling for help.
And this right here is a perfect example of why Sarah dying wasn't the issue; its the confusing, contrived, and contradictory components that confound me.
Whereas Telltale nudged us into being Sarah's reality check and Nick's confidante only to abruptly change direction.
In my opinion S… morearah was all about being too little to late, from the moment you meet her its clearly too late, her dad sheltered her too much and she was too immature to adapt. If anything it went a weird left field in her determinant final scene with her yelling for help
Nick I agree was just all over the place
I agree, I think I thought the character was really well done until they made her do a 180 in that terrible final scene, I dont understand her character or the point of her at all to the story when she dies that way. Story wise its so much better with the first death.
In my opinion Sarah was all about being too little to late...it went a weird left field in her determinant final scene with her yelling for … morehelp.
And this right here is a perfect example of why Sarah dying wasn't the issue; its the confusing, contrived, and contradictory components that confound me.
I feel like they had several different roads they could've taken with her character after you determinately save her from the trailer park, hence why I was intending to do an entire character analysis [and post-speculation] on her.
However, because of the sudden increasing emphasis on Jane(and decreasing emphasis on Kenny in the same episode, ironically) combined with what I'm sure was an attempt to mimic the treatment and determinate fate of Duck and Ben respectively, it feels like they wrote all of those things in as vague hints before deciding to just kill her off because many people didn't like her. A.i. they tried to please everybody and [presumably] only pleased a select few.
EDIT: With the observation deck, however, one of the many weird things that happens is that Sarah comes out onto the deck herself, regardless of how she feels about Clementine at this point(more on this later because I've learned some interesting trivia since I last played that only fuels some of my earlier theories) and...doesn't get to participate in the gunfight mostly due to lack of a gun(again, wasted setups and foreshadowings). So, she is standing behind the cannon for most of the fight when Clementine and Luke get the idea to use it to barricade the door(yet another wasted opportunity). So now, when the deck ends up collapsing, both Sarah and Jane don't get off fast enough: Jane tries to make a dive and get's caught by the hand by Luke while Sarah just falls before she can do the same and ends up in her final situation, which brings a slew of problems and other missed opportunities to the plate:(skip to #3 to stay on topic)
#1. If she was gonna fall because she wanted to help, why didn't they have her help out during this sequence? Not only could you have her attempt to emulate Jane by stabbing or thwacking the walkers with something if she doesn't have any available guns she can be offered. Oh, but wait a minute, there is a literal Chekgov's Gun she could use that seemed to be set up for this scene in conjunction with bullets in Clementine's inventory: Arvo's gun! It was even dropped in the general area where Jane was standing and Sarah later gets trapped, so why wasn't this utilized?!
#2. Since she clearly fell when the deck gave way under her feet, how did she get legs pinned under it? As I've stated before, this is one of my biggest personal hangups with this scene that never fails to leave a bad taste in my mouth. The complete lack of choice on her part just stinks up the entire scene with unfortunate implications. Let me make myself clear: I am NOT a believer of the notion that Sarah had autism or some other mental disability; her dopey behavior and odd perception of things comes from being sheltered for who knows how long without any positive criticism from someone she considers an equal. So, my gripe with this detail is that it completely makes things seem needlessly cruel to character that, despite my suspicious theories and dark predictions, has done very little wrong enough to warrant such a fate. This only served to taint other things since not only is she at the mercy of someone she herself realizes doesn't really like her but that person's blunders despite being a so-called stoic badass got everyone in that exact situation in the first place. I may have eventually grown to flat-out hate Jane (for very strong reasons), but my initial reaction to this was more of bitter disappointment since I can acknowledge that I feel like Jane wouldn't have screwed up the way she did and I thought her saving Sarah would be her ticket to becoming a better person: it forced someone I considered a jaded anti-hero with potential for "redemption"/improvement to act out of character and have her previous negative behavior and opinions come back to taint her character in my eyes for the rest of the game. BEFORE she was supposed to be, even.
#3. The thing we're supposed to be discussing: the fact that she clearly asks for help. We've established in most playthroughs that Sarah doesn't seem to care about her own life anymore: not only does she appear to attempt suicide in the previous episode, not only does bring up that she's not okay and not like Clementine if you try to save her from the trailer park, but when asked if she wanted them to leave her when she brings it up, she noticeably dodges the question by saying she just wants her dad, who she refuses to openly admit is dead despite it happening in front of her and insisting that she's all alone when you find her afterward. Having her ask for help really backpedals on this notion and if she did have the option of surviving this incident, it would've been character development showing that, despite her depressed state and feelings of loneliness despite Clementine's continued support, she wasn't really ready to die after all and she could've been inspired to try to move past it. But since she did not, it only serves to further rub salt in the wound by dying against her, Clementine, and even Jane's wishes and getting both the latter and some of her haters to wish they didn't fail for a moment. It probably doesn't help that the credit's song seems to be referring to her indecision about staying alive.
#4.This arguably applies to her detractors more than anything, but it is a legitimate thought: Sarah's "canon" death isn't really her fault. At most, it basically comes down to her being too loyal/willing to help for her own good and simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Should she have stayed inside? Yes. Should someone have given her directions on what she should do? Oh absolutely, though Bonnie does have an unused line where she tells Sarah to stay inside and away from the fight. Mixed messages like this is what makes her death feel very unfair in a bad way. I do believe that having her help Clementine (and Luke, should her help not be enough) push the cannon she happened to be standing behind in the first place would've fixed this problem, since then it would be a proper sendoff for her character: despite her emotional hangups and inbred reservations, she finally pitches in and helps her friend out, only to end up in a most likely(should we go with the slim option of Jane successful saving her) fatal position. That way, it would be more tragic since she finally took the initiative only to get herself killed in the process.
#5.And this is what would've tied the undertones of her character together despite the dark subject matter: Sarah committing suicide. Now, let's be honest, this was one of the obvious results of her character arc, which the game itself barely tried to hide. However, it would've left an actual impression(pardon the incredibly graphic pun there) on everyone, if it was expanded on: Clementine would have to deal with the fact that her attempt to help someone else who considered her a friend just didn't pan out; Kenny and Jane in particular could have serious issues with her decision even if they weren't very pronounced about it (Kenny in Season 1 seemed to resent Katjaa's decision to kill herself since he believes you should fight it out no matter hard things get; Kenny in Season 2, however, would potentially be conflicted on the issue since while he probably retains his earlier stance, he admits to wanting to die for a long time and could show some form of neutrality/sadness that Sarah chose to go through with it; Jane, on the other hand, seemed to be Sarah's opposite in many ways and having Sarah outright kill herself would make for an interesting dissection of her morality or at the very least, give her a chance to talk things out with Clementine like a friend should); Luke (bless his poor heart) would no doubt have his guilt get the better of him since not only has he failed to protect everyone he swore to, but seeing Sarah, of all people, do someone so extreme would hammer home how hopeless things have gotten; Rebecca, Bonnie, and Mike would be a little more vague(because I honestly can't say how'd they react aside from Rebecca possibly breaking into tears) but they would at least feel sorry for her and Clementine. Even without all of this, it would definitely raise some enlightening questions about her character, since I personally believed from the beginning that Sarah has a dark side to her and could be harboring some serious demons. Was is just a drastic reaction due to the stress of the moment or was she planning to do this all along? Was her childlike innocence genuine or was it just a coping mechanism for all of problems she experienced that finally failed to be enough? Did she even consider the possibility that Clementine would be heartbroken by her decision or did she trust her friend enough to know that her death wouldn't be what completely breaks her? But, alas, what we got instead just kind of gets rid of her without answering any questions.
#6. Ultimately though, despite my obvious discourse with every thing revolving around, what makes the scene one of the the few legitimate sticking points with the game's story as a whole is the complete irrelevance and lack of effect it has on the story. As pointed out a hundred times by now, there are little to no repercussions to this scene. The closest we get is that Jane decides to leave seemingly out of guilt but that happens regardless of Sarah's presence. Which wouldn't be a bad thing if it actually left a noticeable lasting effect on her character. As much as I don't like bringing it up as a good thing, with Nick's death in the same episode, there was some actual effort and correlation put into making his death mean something:
a. he was portrayed as being reckless but protective over everyone else over himself, so the idea that he'd rush out to look for help despite knowing he was wounded sounds in character;
b. there are numerous little clues and details included in the area to help the player draw conclusions on how he died such as a walker with a mouth that isn't bloody if he got killed because of Walter;
c. Jane uses him as an exercise to make sure Clementine is able to do what is necessary should any of her friends turn (which happens with Rebecca later);
d. and while I've seen mixed opinions over whether it actually resonated or not, Luke is clearly torn up about Nick dying trying to save him and Sarah despite the attempts to act otherwise and it makes his acceptance towards Jane's offer make even more sense because not only is he not the heroic and effective leader he strove to be, but his best friend got himself killed because he was the one in trouble this time; the fact that he subconsciously considered leaving Sarah makes it even worse in his opinion.
With Sarah though, Clementine, Luke, and Jane have a moment of shock and/or regret when Sarah dies and Luke brings her up alongside the other Cabin group members he failed to protect. Other than that, and Bonnie briefly crying in the background, no seems to really care about it. And as I've no doubt complained about before, it completely failed to generate any sympathy(and may have even terminated some instead ) for Jane on my part because not only did she clearly dislike Sarah, not only did she insist that Sarah would get herself killed when that's not what ended up happening, but her quote-unquote "guilt" feels a little too convenient. The fact that Jane never once brings Sarah as an individual up again (or ever considering she was projecting her sister onto her, which might be even worse now that I think about it) just makes this a valid interpretation and it matches up with her actions throughout the episode. So, because of these undertones among many others, Jane is essentially a sociopath obsessed with replacing her sister with someone like herself and is surprisingly talented at using what former humane skills she has to win people over and dredge up sympathy despite her cold loner outlook: she clearly didn't have a positive opinion of Sarah (or Kenny and AJ, for that matter), but because Clementine clearly has sentimental feelings for her, she'll try to play along until she inevitably get offed, then she'll be there to comfort Clementine afterwards....Holy shit, Jane just got a whole lot creepier now that I've said that out loud, so back on task!
As I've posted in a different discussion, if Sarah had helped out in the observation deck fight, committed suicide, allowed herself to die at the hands of Clementine/Jane/the Walkers, or had gotten killed by Buricko and Vitali in the cliffhanger, her death would feel a lot more worthwhile.
I agree, I think I thought the character was really well done until they made her do a 180 in that terrible final scene, I dont understand h… moreer character or the point of her at all to the story when she dies that way. Story wise its so much better with the first death.
I kind of have to disagree with this. Anyone can be brave OR aloof until faced with certain death. I don't find it unrealistic or out of character that the encroaching walkers would be enough to temporarily snap Sarah out of her stupor.
Whereas Telltale nudged us into being Sarah's reality check and Nick's confidante only to abruptly change direction.
In my opinion S… morearah was all about being too little to late, from the moment you meet her its clearly too late, her dad sheltered her too much and she was too immature to adapt. If anything it went a weird left field in her determinant final scene with her yelling for help
Nick I agree was just all over the place
The enmity between Kenny and Jane was rather contrived, I'll grant you that. Then again, people operating off very different principles are bound to clash at some point. As resources dwindled, shelter became scarce and the weather took a turn for the worse, relationships became more strained. There were subtle signs of the group starting to split into three factions even before Luke's death. Jane, the "isolationist". Luke, Bonnie, and Mike, "the democracy", and Kenny "family first". Luke......and Bonnie and Mike, ironically......were the only ones not actively trying to/ultimately hoping to influence (right or wrong) Clementine toward some end through manipulation. But I'm digressing from addressing your comment regarding being with or against Jane. Having been on the forums several months and spoken to many players, it's rare to find someone who likes or tolerates (or at least appreciates as characters), both Kenny AND Jane. Most players strongly prefer one over the other, hence "Janiacs" and "Kenny apologists". Looking at it from a purely psychological point of view, I don't hate or condone either one.
That's...actually pretty astute. I can't believe the obvious parallels flew over my head. Then again, this is a very lovable character compa… morered to a grey character that I legitimately hate.
Though, you did inspire another question that I'll ask as a separate comment.
Chances are you were either with her or against her, depending on your opinion of/emotional attachment to Kenny.
Okay, I'm gonna have to put my foot down and call bullshit on this one. The whole Kenny vs. Jane thing didn't really have any basis until literally the same episode(probably because Jane was introduced late in the story but still). Heck, Kenny actually kept to himself throughout most of Amid the Ruins, which I liked. Kinda like Sarah actually; I might have to take that into account at some point...
Also having been firsthand witnesses to the dynamic between Shel and Becca, if a situation arose where Becca had to be "left behind", it likely wouldn… [view original content]
Well, now that you mention it, that's technically what happens if you leave her. She gets genuinely surprised that Clementine is actually leaving her, which gets her pay attention long enough to notice that walkers have broken open the door, and she panics and begs them to leave her alone as they...use her as a imaginary scratching post/ happy slaps dummy (seriously, what the hell) for ten seconds before she finally screams at Clementine/Carlos for help when they apparently finally hit her hard enough to actually do damage. While I never did this myself(eventual 3rd, more Edgy!Clementine playthrough not withstanding; ugh), the idea is sound and understandable: Sarah is so rapped up feeling sad and alone that Clementine outright abandoning her causes her to realize too late that she's in trouble(watching her body language if you slapped her instead shows that she didn't realize where she was or that she was in danger); meanwhile, Clementine (most likely relunctantly as far as I can tell from different playthroughs) takes Jane's advice and chooses to leave with everyone else because she's been convince that there's nothing they can do for Sarah; and while I give her shit because of her dialogue and actions both beforehand and afterwards, Jane was clearly having the opposite response that Sarah was because she was having flashbacks to being in a similar position when she gave up on her sister and just kneejerked into wanting to leave.
I kind of have to disagree with this. Anyone can be brave OR aloof until faced with certain death. I don't find it unrealistic or out of character that the encroaching walkers would be enough to temporarily snap Sarah out of her stupor.
Luke......and Bonnie and Mike, ironically......were the only ones not actively trying to/ultimately hoping to influence (right or wrong) Clementine toward some end through manipulation.
Huh. That is true, isn't it? Heck, one of my favorite moments with Bonnie was the talk she has on Arvo's back porch.
Granted, plenty would argue that's a reason why they felt kinda bland at times, but that's this fanbase for you. Anyone who isn't Clementine, Kenny, or someone from Season 1 or 400 Days is a boring/annoying/terrible character.
Having been on the forums several months and spoken to many players, it's rare to find someone who likes or tolerates (or at least appreciates as characters), both Kenny AND Jane. Most players strongly prefer one over the other, hence "Janiacs" and "Kenny apologists". Looking at it from a purely psychological point of view, I don't hate or condone either one.
Yeah, I noticed that too. I'm positively neutral towards Kenny, though there have been times where I've want to kick his ass for being such an asshole. I think I've made my stance on Jane known since day one, so I'll duck around her by simply saying "hate". However, I did think pitting the two against each other was an interesting idea, it's just that I don't have the time and experience that others have with the series to really have too many problems with the concept. Plus, there's a certain squeaky cleanness about using Luke instead, which was apparently a big thing throughout the release dates, so there wouldn't be that grey vs gray morality to dissect.
The enmity between Kenny and Jane was rather contrived, I'll grant you that. Then again, people operating off very different principles are … morebound to clash at some point. As resources dwindled, shelter became scarce and the weather took a turn for the worse, relationships became more strained. There were subtle signs of the group starting to split into three factions even before Luke's death. Jane, the "isolationist". Luke, Bonnie, and Mike, "the democracy", and Kenny "family first". Luke......and Bonnie and Mike, ironically......were the only ones not actively trying to/ultimately hoping to influence (right or wrong) Clementine toward some end through manipulation. But I'm digressing from addressing your comment regarding being with or against Jane. Having been on the forums several months and spoken to many players, it's rare to find someone who likes or tolerates (or at least appreciates as characters), both Kenny AND Jane. Most players str… [view original content]
Given the theme of this topic and the critiques, let's flip the script: Do you think the Cabin Group would've been better received if they were the characters you played as in 400 Days?
I'm going to assume you are referring to the determinant conversation Bonnie has with Clem where she is actually civil to her. If you choose to "cover Luke", Bonnie says something about Luke akin to what Kenny says following Sarita's death (essentially placing blame on Clementine) followed by "I have nothing more to say to you" or something to that effect. This, while not being the travesty Sarah's second death scene was, was another blunder the writers committed. For Bonnie, someone who is consistently remorseful and by all previous indications cares for Clem and AJ (the jacket, aiding in the escape, presumably helping with AJ's delivery, her promise to Rebecca's corpse) to leave two children to die or suffer at the hands of or by consequence of being with someone she deemed unstable (Kenny), is a little too callous to be believable. This is only my opinion though and may be coloured slightly by the fact Bonnie is my favourite character in the series.
Luke......and Bonnie and Mike, ironically......were the only ones not actively trying to/ultimately hoping to influence (right or wrong) Cle… morementine toward some end through manipulation.
Huh. That is true, isn't it? Heck, one of my favorite moments with Bonnie was the talk she has on Arvo's back porch.
Granted, plenty would argue that's a reason why they felt kinda bland at times, but that's this fanbase for you. Anyone who isn't Clementine, Kenny, or someone from Season 1 or 400 Days is a boring/annoying/terrible character.
Having been on the forums several months and spoken to many players, it's rare to find someone who likes or tolerates (or at least appreciates as characters), both Kenny AND Jane. Most players strongly prefer one over the other, hence "Janiacs" and "Kenny apologists". Looking at it from a purely psychological point of view, I don't hate or condone either one.
Yeah, I noticed that too. I'm positively … [view original content]
Well, now that you mention it, that's technically what happens if you leave her. She gets genuinely surprised that Clementine is actually le… moreaving her, which gets her pay attention long enough to notice that walkers have broken open the door, and she panics and begs them to leave her alone as they...use her as a imaginary scratching post/ happy slaps dummy (seriously, what the hell) for ten seconds before she finally screams at Clementine/Carlos for help when they apparently finally hit her hard enough to actually do damage. While I never did this myself(eventual 3rd, more Edgy!Clementine playthrough not withstanding; ugh), the idea is sound and understandable: Sarah is so rapped up feeling sad and alone that Clementine outright abandoning her causes her to realize too late that she's in trouble(watching her body language if you slapped her instead shows that she didn't realize where she was or that she was in danger); meanwhile, Clementin… [view original content]
I agree......for the most part. Maybe not about Sarah having a "dark side". Everyone does, I suppose, though I don't think that was the point of Sarah's character, and I don't see anything readily apparent that would lead to that conclusion. There is a difference between not caring if you live or die and being suicidal. Are you saying she was intentionally or subconsciously trying to commit suicide through circumstances and being a non-participant? Even if that were true, that points more toward hopelessness than anything dark or nefarious about her character, as you seem to think.
Well, now that you mention it, that's technically what happens if you leave her. She gets genuinely surprised that Clementine is actually le… moreaving her, which gets her pay attention long enough to notice that walkers have broken open the door, and she panics and begs them to leave her alone as they...use her as a imaginary scratching post/ happy slaps dummy (seriously, what the hell) for ten seconds before she finally screams at Clementine/Carlos for help when they apparently finally hit her hard enough to actually do damage. While I never did this myself(eventual 3rd, more Edgy!Clementine playthrough not withstanding; ugh), the idea is sound and understandable: Sarah is so rapped up feeling sad and alone that Clementine outright abandoning her causes her to realize too late that she's in trouble(watching her body language if you slapped her instead shows that she didn't realize where she was or that she was in danger); meanwhile, Clementin… [view original content]
I think this deserves its own thread, but given the right treatment, yes. Although it would have had to been more like an extended cut scene/prequel movie rather than having playable characters. Otherwise it would be too complicated given the fact there were additional characters to take into consideration, some of which were traveling together. For instance Luke, Nick, Pete, and Nick's mother. So would the player be playing as Luke or Nick (or even Pete??)? Maybe you could play as both Luke and Nick and the combination of choices you make would determine......what exactly?, since they all end up at Howe's irregardless. You could get reallllly creative, to the point it might sound good in theory, but would probably come off as contrived onscreen.
Given the theme of this topic and the critiques, let's flip the script: Do you think the Cabin Group would've been better received if they were the characters you played as in 400 Days?
Oh, sorry I wasn't clear about that. I specifically meant the line about "When was the last time anyone did what you wanted?" It showed some cathartic synergy between the two: Bonnie spent a lot of her screentime doing things specifically to appeal to someone, usually male, that she believed in, at least depending on how you played her in 400 Days. Each of those times(Leland, Carver, Luke/Nick, Clementine), things didn't pan out and she ended up regretting the terrible things she did or said in their name. Meanwhile, Clementine herself, as many players complained about, had spent a large amount of Season 2 trying to help everyone out, sometimes regardless of their antagonism. She even has a few lines complaining about how she is usually the one expected to do everything whether she actually wants to or not. So it made sense at that point in the story for Bonnie to encourage Clementine not to be like her and make her own decisions in life.
The funny thing about the bad version of that scene though is I could almost see the logic behind it. After failing to find any true connection with people like Leland and Carver, Luke was the only person who was really as good as Bonnie thought they was. So, despite clearly losing that battle to Jane, Bonnie was happy to have him around, so when his leg ended up being injured and he ended up on cracking ice, of course she would do anything she could to save him whether he wants her to or not. If Clementine, who could possibly be lighter than her, decides not go after him and instead follows his order to cover him while he recovers, Bonnie's emotions get the best of her and she tried to save him herself, which ended up getting him (and determinately her as well) killed. So, now once again, she's failed to hold on to someone she admired and this time, it was someone who was worth it, all because, in her mind, Clementine made the choice not to save him. So, I can understand her deciding to blame her for her part in it because that's kinda what survivor's guilt can do to someone who really cared about the lost one, which Kenny, Christa, and Arvo (and debatably, Sarah) seemed to do as well. I kinda have a hard time justifying her holding it against her the degree she did, though.
I agree that her endangering Clementine and especially AJ by taking an extra bag of supplies regardless of your choice was out of place. At the very least, I kinda assume on my 1st playthrough that Bonnie didn't really think things through when Mike and Arvo decided to leave and just jumped on the bandwagon without taking time to considering the consequences or implications of doing so. Her absolute horror and remorse when Arvo shoots Clementine seems to support this.
I'm going to assume you are referring to the determinant conversation Bonnie has with Clem where she is actually civil to her. If you choose… more to "cover Luke", Bonnie says something about Luke akin to what Kenny says following Sarita's death (essentially placing blame on Clementine) followed by "I have nothing more to say to you" or something to that effect. This, while not being the travesty Sarah's second death scene was, was another blunder the writers committed. For Bonnie, someone who is consistently remorseful and by all previous indications cares for Clem and AJ (the jacket, aiding in the escape, presumably helping with AJ's delivery, her promise to Rebecca's corpse) to leave two children to die or suffer at the hands of or by consequence of being with someone she deemed unstable (Kenny), is a little too callous to be believable. This is only my opinion though and may be coloured slightly by the fact Bonnie is my favourite character in the series.
I think this deserves its own thread, but given the right treatment, yes. Although it would have had to been more like an extended cut scene… more/prequel movie rather than having playable characters. Otherwise it would be too complicated given the fact there were additional characters to take into consideration, some of which were traveling together. For instance Luke, Nick, Pete, and Nick's mother. So would the player be playing as Luke or Nick (or even Pete??)? Maybe you could play as both Luke and Nick and the combination of choices you make would determine......what exactly?, since they all end up at Howe's irregardless. You could get reallllly creative, to the point it might sound good in theory, but would probably come off as contrived onscreen.
Sorry, that extra part was supposed to be edited in my post above as a response to Firewallvolcano. Ah well, that's what the edit button is for.
Are you saying she was intentionally or subconsciously trying to commit suicide through circumstances and being a non-participant?
Um...subconsciously, I suppose. What I really meant to address was that while she obviously wouldn't want to actually die,
she also wasn't in any hurry to prevent it in her free time. Going by some of the things she can say at that point in the story, Sarah was in a dark place and had become noticeably more cynical.
Even if that were true, that points more toward hopelessness than anything dark or nefarious about her character, as you seem to think.
Yeah, I may have gotten my wires crossed a little bit there. I didn't mean to imply that she would just let herself die at the first available opportunity, but she also may have considered it given that she tried to do something similar before. The dark side aspect would have come in had she made the conscious choice to deliberately endanger herself or even lash out at any of the others despite knowing that some of them(namely Jane, Kenny, and a more aggressively portrayed Clementine) could potentially kill her in self-defense.
I agree......for the most part. Maybe not about Sarah having a "dark side". Everyone does, I suppose, though I don't think that was the poi… morent of Sarah's character, and I don't see anything readily apparent that would lead to that conclusion. There is a difference between not caring if you live or die and being suicidal. Are you saying she was intentionally or subconsciously trying to commit suicide through circumstances and being a non-participant? Even if that were true, that points more toward hopelessness than anything dark or nefarious about her character, as you seem to think.
Season 2 could have easily been about both the Cabin Group and the 400 Days characters.
One group settles in a community that took them i… moren and transforms from ordinary people struggling to survive in a zombie apocalypse into hardened survivalists with combat experience, but their experiences in the community have left them either embittered by the circumstances around them or needlessly cruel and pragmatic. Another group disagrees with Carver's methods and brutality, and instead chooses to run from them in the middle of the night in an attempt to live and support themselves on their own until they are brought back against their will, and find themselves up against a group that they had once thought were their friends.
Two groups are in a conflict with each other with no easy answers on who is more justified in their actions, and Clementine ends up stuck in the middle of said conflict, all while Carver (who should be more morally ambiguo… [view original content]
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Shel would probably be more relatable than Jane because we know Becca and we've played as Shel as opposed to Jane, and Shel was there first anyway. At least, that's how I see it.
When I hear "a more relatable Jane," I can't help but tilt my head and go "huh?!" From what I recall, Shel was nothing like Jane. Saying she's is more relatable at all is like saying the sky is blue.
It probably doesn't help that Shel is a top contender for my favorite 400 Days character, whereas I can't freakin stand Jane.
Unfortunately, it kinda validates my point of contention with this thread of opinion: you can't really say the 400 Days Group would've been a better supporting cast for Clementine than the Cabin Group without really stretching it and overglorifying what little separate screentime the former had over what vastly uneven screentime the latter did.
I mean, I do like Shel more than Jane, but people can/do change, so I imagine Shel might've become like Jane if she couldn't save Becca. She also could've maintained her 400 Days personality while filling Jane's role, in which case I think some scenes would've played differently. (For instance, she probably wouldn't have tried to leave Sarah or made out with Luke at a time like that.)
I guess, though having Becca interact with Clementine was on a lot of people's plates and they only got a taste.
Also, to throw Jane a [sharp-pointed] bone, what she did with Luke involved anything but kissing.
Well, that's the tricky thing: do you go with the group who had separate introductions fresh off of Season 1's standing ovation yet were very distanced from Clementine or the group who she actually had mildly decent interaction with in Season 2('s best episode, in my opinion) who all came from the same area?
Also, I notice you left off Sarah and Nick; is that complement to their characters or did you just forget?
It was intentional. Sarah and Nick were the cabin group characters with the most complexity and potential, yet were the most brutality and unexpectedly cast-aside. Did anyone care when Alvin and Carlos died? Probably not. Whereas Telltale nudged us into being Sarah's reality check and Nick's confidante only to abruptly change direction.
Well, that puts this scene in a whole other light.
yeah completely agree. i kinda wish clem, had met and been apart of the 400 days cast in season 2 than with the cabin group . the cabin group characters just seem boring compared to the 400 days characters.
I really dont like how the developers minimized the actually role the 400 days cast had in season 2. I hope they fix this in season 3 id love to see more charecters from the 400 days show up in season 3 like rusell,vince,shel,becca,wyatt, also I feel like nate would of been a better villian than carver.
Agreed. For the first part.
I have mixed feelings about the second.
what are your mixed feelings?
I feel like half the people who say that do so out of spite/sour grapes for how the Cabin Group, who lacked the separate backstory treatment, turned out.
i dont have any spite toward the cabin group,for not having much of a backstory, I just dont think they were as interesting characters as the 400 days cast was.plus we had more time to get to know them by playing 400days hence why I feel like they should of had a bigger role than the cabin group in season 2.
The only thing I even liked about season 2 and kept me playing was clem ,kenny, Aj,
I don't get it
Sorry. Went to go see Suicide Squad.
While I agree that at least a few characters(namely Taavia, Becca, and probably Bonnie) should return in Season 3, Nate is not really high on my list. Both in terms of who should return and in general.
Again, the whole Nate>Carver thing is exactly what I'm iffy about, since we're comparing characters with different scopes and screentimes. Carver was definitely a Big Bad that should've played a more active role; Nate was an antagonist you'd see in an after school special. While YMMV, my problem with Carver was that he was corny and predictable: the moment I saw him, I immediately got "Social Darwinist," which fits well into this genre but there wasn't much else outside of that. Nate isn't much better, but at least there was some slight nebulousness to him in terms of his actions. However, I feel like there wouldn't be much to him in the series proper outside of "wild and crazy trucker," which kinda eh in my opinion given that we've spent so much time around rural and country areas.
Okay, since it was inevitably brought up at various points, what 400 Days character(s) matches up with what Season 2 character(s), whether it be by personality, role, or otherwise?
I'll start by explaining the Shel/Jane thing, which you seemed to take issue with. Props to @enzeruanimefan for coming close to explaining what I meant.
Having played as Shel in 400 Days makes us naturally more sympathetic toward her character. Whether we exchanged the relative safety and security of the truck stop for the freedom to follow our moral compass or (reluctantly) shot Stephanie to ensure Becca would know the comfort of a meal every day and a defensible shelter, we chose her path. Whereas Jane is presented with the intention of being polarising. Chances are you were either with her or against her, depending on your opinion of/emotional attachment to Kenny. Shel could fill the role of the "pragmatic survivor", while being a universally relatable character, because we would understand her motivations. Also having been firsthand witnesses to the dynamic between Shel and Becca, if a situation arose where Becca had to be "left behind", it likely wouldn't engender the anger or disgust some players felt toward Jane for leaving Jaime. Jane felt like a plot device in many ways, and I don't feel her character was treated fairly (or Kenny's for that matter) by the writers. Shel could fill Jane's shoes without being the token anti-Kenny (though by the final act, they unintentionally...or intentionally, had more in common than they could admit).
I will write a follow-up comment later pertaining to the other characters.
That's...actually pretty astute. I can't believe the obvious parallels flew over my head. Then again, this is a very lovable character compared to a grey character that I legitimately hate.
Though, you did inspire another question that I'll ask as a separate comment.
Okay, I'm gonna have to put my foot down and call bullshit on this one. The whole Kenny vs. Jane thing didn't really have any basis until literally the same episode(probably because Jane was introduced late in the story but still). Heck, Kenny actually kept to himself throughout most of Amid the Ruins, which I liked. Kinda like Sarah actually; I might have to take that into account at some point...
Probably because some players really didn't like Becca.
Though I hate Jane for a myriad of other reasons, that might be one that only counts if you completely demonize her.
I missed Alvin. He was my favorite character in the first episode and he's the one screwup My!Clementine went through on my first playthrough.
Carlos did a lot more to warrant being disliked and his death served a purpose.
Yeah, that's one of the many-x-20 things I hate about how Sarah in particular was written off. Stick to your guns! Either go big or go home!
Nick is definitely the example of how the Cabin Group fell by the wayside as the Season progressed. I never really got into the guy, so I feel like the silver lining I see with his canon death isn't really being sensitive to his fans.
In my opinion Sarah was all about being too little to late, from the moment you meet her its clearly too late, her dad sheltered her too much and she was too immature to adapt. If anything it went a weird left field in her determinant final scene with her yelling for help
Nick I agree was just all over the place
And this right here is a perfect example of why Sarah dying wasn't the issue; its the confusing, contrived, and contradictory components that confound me.
I agree, I think I thought the character was really well done until they made her do a 180 in that terrible final scene, I dont understand her character or the point of her at all to the story when she dies that way. Story wise its so much better with the first death.
I feel like they had several different roads they could've taken with her character after you determinately save her from the trailer park, hence why I was intending to do an entire character analysis [and post-speculation] on her.
However, because of the sudden increasing emphasis on Jane(and decreasing emphasis on Kenny in the same episode, ironically) combined with what I'm sure was an attempt to mimic the treatment and determinate fate of Duck and Ben respectively, it feels like they wrote all of those things in as vague hints before deciding to just kill her off because many people didn't like her. A.i. they tried to please everybody and [presumably] only pleased a select few.
EDIT: With the observation deck, however, one of the many weird things that happens is that Sarah comes out onto the deck herself, regardless of how she feels about Clementine at this point(more on this later because I've learned some interesting trivia since I last played that only fuels some of my earlier theories) and...doesn't get to participate in the gunfight mostly due to lack of a gun(again, wasted setups and foreshadowings). So, she is standing behind the cannon for most of the fight when Clementine and Luke get the idea to use it to barricade the door(yet another wasted opportunity). So now, when the deck ends up collapsing, both Sarah and Jane don't get off fast enough: Jane tries to make a dive and get's caught by the hand by Luke while Sarah just falls before she can do the same and ends up in her final situation, which brings a slew of problems and other missed opportunities to the plate:(skip to #3 to stay on topic)
#1. If she was gonna fall because she wanted to help, why didn't they have her help out during this sequence? Not only could you have her attempt to emulate Jane by stabbing or thwacking the walkers with something if she doesn't have any available guns she can be offered. Oh, but wait a minute, there is a literal Chekgov's Gun she could use that seemed to be set up for this scene in conjunction with bullets in Clementine's inventory: Arvo's gun! It was even dropped in the general area where Jane was standing and Sarah later gets trapped, so why wasn't this utilized?!
#2. Since she clearly fell when the deck gave way under her feet, how did she get legs pinned under it? As I've stated before, this is one of my biggest personal hangups with this scene that never fails to leave a bad taste in my mouth. The complete lack of choice on her part just stinks up the entire scene with unfortunate implications. Let me make myself clear: I am NOT a believer of the notion that Sarah had autism or some other mental disability; her dopey behavior and odd perception of things comes from being sheltered for who knows how long without any positive criticism from someone she considers an equal. So, my gripe with this detail is that it completely makes things seem needlessly cruel to character that, despite my suspicious theories and dark predictions, has done very little wrong enough to warrant such a fate. This only served to taint other things since not only is she at the mercy of someone she herself realizes doesn't really like her but that person's blunders despite being a so-called stoic badass got everyone in that exact situation in the first place. I may have eventually grown to flat-out hate Jane (for very strong reasons), but my initial reaction to this was more of bitter disappointment since I can acknowledge that I feel like Jane wouldn't have screwed up the way she did and I thought her saving Sarah would be her ticket to becoming a better person: it forced someone I considered a jaded anti-hero with potential for "redemption"/improvement to act out of character and have her previous negative behavior and opinions come back to taint her character in my eyes for the rest of the game. BEFORE she was supposed to be, even.
#3. The thing we're supposed to be discussing: the fact that she clearly asks for help. We've established in most playthroughs that Sarah doesn't seem to care about her own life anymore: not only does she appear to attempt suicide in the previous episode, not only does bring up that she's not okay and not like Clementine if you try to save her from the trailer park, but when asked if she wanted them to leave her when she brings it up, she noticeably dodges the question by saying she just wants her dad, who she refuses to openly admit is dead despite it happening in front of her and insisting that she's all alone when you find her afterward. Having her ask for help really backpedals on this notion and if she did have the option of surviving this incident, it would've been character development showing that, despite her depressed state and feelings of loneliness despite Clementine's continued support, she wasn't really ready to die after all and she could've been inspired to try to move past it. But since she did not, it only serves to further rub salt in the wound by dying against her, Clementine, and even Jane's wishes and getting both the latter and some of her haters to wish they didn't fail for a moment. It probably doesn't help that the credit's song seems to be referring to her indecision about staying alive.
#4.This arguably applies to her detractors more than anything, but it is a legitimate thought: Sarah's "canon" death isn't really her fault. At most, it basically comes down to her being too loyal/willing to help for her own good and simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Should she have stayed inside? Yes. Should someone have given her directions on what she should do? Oh absolutely, though Bonnie does have an unused line where she tells Sarah to stay inside and away from the fight. Mixed messages like this is what makes her death feel very unfair in a bad way. I do believe that having her help Clementine (and Luke, should her help not be enough) push the cannon she happened to be standing behind in the first place would've fixed this problem, since then it would be a proper sendoff for her character: despite her emotional hangups and inbred reservations, she finally pitches in and helps her friend out, only to end up in a most likely(should we go with the slim option of Jane successful saving her) fatal position. That way, it would be more tragic since she finally took the initiative only to get herself killed in the process.
#5.And this is what would've tied the undertones of her character together despite the dark subject matter: Sarah committing suicide. Now, let's be honest, this was one of the obvious results of her character arc, which the game itself barely tried to hide. However, it would've left an actual impression(pardon the incredibly graphic pun there) on everyone, if it was expanded on: Clementine would have to deal with the fact that her attempt to help someone else who considered her a friend just didn't pan out; Kenny and Jane in particular could have serious issues with her decision even if they weren't very pronounced about it (Kenny in Season 1 seemed to resent Katjaa's decision to kill herself since he believes you should fight it out no matter hard things get; Kenny in Season 2, however, would potentially be conflicted on the issue since while he probably retains his earlier stance, he admits to wanting to die for a long time and could show some form of neutrality/sadness that Sarah chose to go through with it; Jane, on the other hand, seemed to be Sarah's opposite in many ways and having Sarah outright kill herself would make for an interesting dissection of her morality or at the very least, give her a chance to talk things out with Clementine like a friend should); Luke (bless his poor heart) would no doubt have his guilt get the better of him since not only has he failed to protect everyone he swore to, but seeing Sarah, of all people, do someone so extreme would hammer home how hopeless things have gotten; Rebecca, Bonnie, and Mike would be a little more vague(because I honestly can't say how'd they react aside from Rebecca possibly breaking into tears) but they would at least feel sorry for her and Clementine. Even without all of this, it would definitely raise some enlightening questions about her character, since I personally believed from the beginning that Sarah has a dark side to her and could be harboring some serious demons. Was is just a drastic reaction due to the stress of the moment or was she planning to do this all along? Was her childlike innocence genuine or was it just a coping mechanism for all of problems she experienced that finally failed to be enough? Did she even consider the possibility that Clementine would be heartbroken by her decision or did she trust her friend enough to know that her death wouldn't be what completely breaks her? But, alas, what we got instead just kind of gets rid of her without answering any questions.
#6. Ultimately though, despite my obvious discourse with every thing revolving around, what makes the scene one of the the few legitimate sticking points with the game's story as a whole is the complete irrelevance and lack of effect it has on the story. As pointed out a hundred times by now, there are little to no repercussions to this scene. The closest we get is that Jane decides to leave seemingly out of guilt but that happens regardless of Sarah's presence. Which wouldn't be a bad thing if it actually left a noticeable lasting effect on her character. As much as I don't like bringing it up as a good thing, with Nick's death in the same episode, there was some actual effort and correlation put into making his death mean something:
a. he was portrayed as being reckless but protective over everyone else over himself, so the idea that he'd rush out to look for help despite knowing he was wounded sounds in character;
b. there are numerous little clues and details included in the area to help the player draw conclusions on how he died such as a walker with a mouth that isn't bloody if he got killed because of Walter;
c. Jane uses him as an exercise to make sure Clementine is able to do what is necessary should any of her friends turn (which happens with Rebecca later);
d. and while I've seen mixed opinions over whether it actually resonated or not, Luke is clearly torn up about Nick dying trying to save him and Sarah despite the attempts to act otherwise and it makes his acceptance towards Jane's offer make even more sense because not only is he not the heroic and effective leader he strove to be, but his best friend got himself killed because he was the one in trouble this time; the fact that he subconsciously considered leaving Sarah makes it even worse in his opinion.
With Sarah though, Clementine, Luke, and Jane have a moment of shock and/or regret when Sarah dies and Luke brings her up alongside the other Cabin group members he failed to protect. Other than that, and Bonnie briefly crying in the background, no seems to really care about it. And as I've no doubt complained about before, it completely failed to generate any sympathy(and may have even terminated some instead ) for Jane on my part because not only did she clearly dislike Sarah, not only did she insist that Sarah would get herself killed when that's not what ended up happening, but her quote-unquote "guilt" feels a little too convenient. The fact that Jane never once brings Sarah as an individual up again (or ever considering she was projecting her sister onto her, which might be even worse now that I think about it) just makes this a valid interpretation and it matches up with her actions throughout the episode. So, because of these undertones among many others, Jane is essentially a sociopath obsessed with replacing her sister with someone like herself and is surprisingly talented at using what former humane skills she has to win people over and dredge up sympathy despite her cold loner outlook: she clearly didn't have a positive opinion of Sarah (or Kenny and AJ, for that matter), but because Clementine clearly has sentimental feelings for her, she'll try to play along until she inevitably get offed, then she'll be there to comfort Clementine afterwards....Holy shit, Jane just got a whole lot creepier now that I've said that out loud, so back on task!
As I've posted in a different discussion, if Sarah had helped out in the observation deck fight, committed suicide, allowed herself to die at the hands of Clementine/Jane/the Walkers, or had gotten killed by Buricko and Vitali in the cliffhanger, her death would feel a lot more worthwhile.
I kind of have to disagree with this. Anyone can be brave OR aloof until faced with certain death. I don't find it unrealistic or out of character that the encroaching walkers would be enough to temporarily snap Sarah out of her stupor.
The enmity between Kenny and Jane was rather contrived, I'll grant you that. Then again, people operating off very different principles are bound to clash at some point. As resources dwindled, shelter became scarce and the weather took a turn for the worse, relationships became more strained. There were subtle signs of the group starting to split into three factions even before Luke's death. Jane, the "isolationist". Luke, Bonnie, and Mike, "the democracy", and Kenny "family first". Luke......and Bonnie and Mike, ironically......were the only ones not actively trying to/ultimately hoping to influence (right or wrong) Clementine toward some end through manipulation. But I'm digressing from addressing your comment regarding being with or against Jane. Having been on the forums several months and spoken to many players, it's rare to find someone who likes or tolerates (or at least appreciates as characters), both Kenny AND Jane. Most players strongly prefer one over the other, hence "Janiacs" and "Kenny apologists". Looking at it from a purely psychological point of view, I don't hate or condone either one.
Well, now that you mention it, that's technically what happens if you leave her. She gets genuinely surprised that Clementine is actually leaving her, which gets her pay attention long enough to notice that walkers have broken open the door, and she panics and begs them to leave her alone as they...use her as a imaginary scratching post/ happy slaps dummy
(seriously, what the hell) for ten seconds 
before she finally screams at Clementine/Carlos for help when they apparently finally hit her hard enough to actually do damage. 
While I never did this myself(eventual 3rd, more Edgy!Clementine playthrough not withstanding; ugh), the idea is sound and understandable: Sarah is so rapped up feeling sad and alone that Clementine outright abandoning her causes her to realize too late that she's in trouble(watching her body language if you slapped her instead shows that she didn't realize where she was or that she was in danger); meanwhile, Clementine (most likely relunctantly as far as I can tell from different playthroughs) takes Jane's advice and chooses to leave with everyone else because she's been convince that there's nothing they can do for Sarah; and while I give her shit because of her dialogue and actions both beforehand and afterwards, Jane was clearly having the opposite response that Sarah was because she was having flashbacks to being in a similar position when she gave up on her sister and just kneejerked into wanting to leave.
EDIT: Second part moved up to better fix context.
Huh. That is true, isn't it? Heck, one of my favorite moments with Bonnie was the talk she has on Arvo's back porch.
Granted, plenty would argue that's a reason why they felt kinda bland at times, but that's this fanbase for you. Anyone who isn't Clementine, Kenny, or someone from Season 1 or 400 Days is a boring/annoying/terrible character.
Yeah, I noticed that too. I'm positively neutral towards Kenny, though there have been times where I've want to kick his ass for being such an asshole. I think I've made my stance on Jane known since day one, so I'll duck around her by simply saying "hate". However, I did think pitting the two against each other was an interesting idea, it's just that I don't have the time and experience that others have with the series to really have too many problems with the concept. Plus, there's a certain squeaky cleanness about using Luke instead, which was apparently a big thing throughout the release dates, so there wouldn't be that grey vs gray morality to dissect.
One name I've seen recently was Kensplainers.
Given the theme of this topic and the critiques, let's flip the script: Do you think the Cabin Group would've been better received if they were the characters you played as in 400 Days?
I'm going to assume you are referring to the determinant conversation Bonnie has with Clem where she is actually civil to her. If you choose to "cover Luke", Bonnie says something about Luke akin to what Kenny says following Sarita's death (essentially placing blame on Clementine) followed by "I have nothing more to say to you" or something to that effect. This, while not being the travesty Sarah's second death scene was, was another blunder the writers committed. For Bonnie, someone who is consistently remorseful and by all previous indications cares for Clem and AJ (the jacket, aiding in the escape, presumably helping with AJ's delivery, her promise to Rebecca's corpse) to leave two children to die or suffer at the hands of or by consequence of being with someone she deemed unstable (Kenny), is a little too callous to be believable. This is only my opinion though and may be coloured slightly by the fact Bonnie is my favourite character in the series.
WHAT THE
I agree......for the most part. Maybe not about Sarah having a "dark side". Everyone does, I suppose, though I don't think that was the point of Sarah's character, and I don't see anything readily apparent that would lead to that conclusion. There is a difference between not caring if you live or die and being suicidal. Are you saying she was intentionally or subconsciously trying to commit suicide through circumstances and being a non-participant? Even if that were true, that points more toward hopelessness than anything dark or nefarious about her character, as you seem to think.
I think this deserves its own thread, but given the right treatment, yes. Although it would have had to been more like an extended cut scene/prequel movie rather than having playable characters. Otherwise it would be too complicated given the fact there were additional characters to take into consideration, some of which were traveling together. For instance Luke, Nick, Pete, and Nick's mother. So would the player be playing as Luke or Nick (or even Pete??)? Maybe you could play as both Luke and Nick and the combination of choices you make would determine......what exactly?, since they all end up at Howe's irregardless. You could get reallllly creative, to the point it might sound good in theory, but would probably come off as contrived onscreen.
Oh, sorry I wasn't clear about that. I specifically meant the line about "When was the last time anyone did what you wanted?" It showed some cathartic synergy between the two: Bonnie spent a lot of her screentime doing things specifically to appeal to someone, usually male, that she believed in, at least depending on how you played her in 400 Days. Each of those times(Leland, Carver, Luke/Nick, Clementine), things didn't pan out and she ended up regretting the terrible things she did or said in their name. Meanwhile, Clementine herself, as many players complained about, had spent a large amount of Season 2 trying to help everyone out, sometimes regardless of their antagonism. She even has a few lines complaining about how she is usually the one expected to do everything whether she actually wants to or not. So it made sense at that point in the story for Bonnie to encourage Clementine not to be like her and make her own decisions in life.
The funny thing about the bad version of that scene though is I could almost see the logic behind it. After failing to find any true connection with people like Leland and Carver, Luke was the only person who was really as good as Bonnie thought they was. So, despite clearly losing that battle to Jane, Bonnie was happy to have him around, so when his leg ended up being injured and he ended up on cracking ice, of course she would do anything she could to save him whether he wants her to or not. If Clementine, who could possibly be lighter than her, decides not go after him and instead follows his order to cover him while he recovers, Bonnie's emotions get the best of her and she tried to save him herself, which ended up getting him (and determinately her as well) killed. So, now once again, she's failed to hold on to someone she admired and this time, it was someone who was worth it, all because, in her mind, Clementine made the choice not to save him. So, I can understand her deciding to blame her for her part in it because that's kinda what survivor's guilt can do to someone who really cared about the lost one, which Kenny, Christa, and Arvo (and debatably, Sarah) seemed to do as well. I kinda have a hard time justifying her holding it against her the degree she did, though.
I agree that her endangering Clementine and especially AJ by taking an extra bag of supplies regardless of your choice was out of place. At the very least, I kinda assume on my 1st playthrough that Bonnie didn't really think things through when Mike and Arvo decided to leave and just jumped on the bandwagon without taking time to considering the consequences or implications of doing so. Her absolute horror and remorse when Arvo shoots Clementine seems to support this.
Okay.
My post is so long that I have no idea what you're referring to. Can you elaborate?
...It was the Jane stuff, wasn't it?
Sorry, that extra part was supposed to be edited in my post above as a response to Firewallvolcano. Ah well, that's what the edit button is for.
Um...subconsciously, I suppose. What I really meant to address was that while she obviously wouldn't want to actually die,
she also wasn't in any hurry to prevent it in her free time. Going by some of the things she can say at that point in the story, Sarah was in a dark place and had become noticeably more cynical.
Yeah, I may have gotten my wires crossed a little bit there. I didn't mean to imply that she would just let herself die at the first available opportunity, but she also may have considered it given that she tried to do something similar before. The dark side aspect would have come in had she made the conscious choice to deliberately endanger herself or even lash out at any of the others despite knowing that some of them(namely Jane, Kenny, and a more aggressively portrayed Clementine) could potentially kill her in self-defense.
Lol no, it was just that I don't think I've ever seen a longer post on this forum.
Yeeah, that's a bad habit of mine, it seems.
How did I miss this?! This is amazing! And honestly, kinda the sort of thing I could've expected from my vague impressions of Season 2's premise.