The thing about Season Two is that it never allows you to outright say that you believe Kenny is dangerous and you want to go away from him.… more The game is tailored in a way that you're by his side no matter what you want, which understandably makes the adult characters think that Clementine is just a child who doesn't realize how dangerous Kenny is.
Actually, you can say that you don't trust him/never liked him and agree with the other that he's broken. When Mike, Bonnie leave with Arvo you can ask them to take you with them, unfortunately the game don't allow it.
And everyone lost a loved one in TWD universe, Kenny is not someone special. That doesn't allow him to try to murder someone when there is no proof.
That sounds very interesting! Perhaps we could've had a choice between giving Kenny or Jane a hand during the fight earlier on, and whoever … morewe helped will manage to overpower the other person, so the decision would make us choose whether we would allow our most liked character between the two to kill the other.
I was just commenting that helping the character you like win the fight might be missing the point of making it a truly fair possibility for Jane to win.
there's no excuse for Kenny to try and murder her just because he lost himself in a blind fit of rage.
While you're correct in the regard that what Kenny did is technically wrong and that it's certainty not acceptable behaviour on any grounds, I believe it should be taken into account of what Kenny's mental state was like at the time. When Kenny is put through the prospect that someone he cares about could've been killed, he does lash out and due to his anger issues, he's actually unable of controlling his actions completely when in that mind set, as his rashness takes over. Jane, of course knew this and took advantage of it, but the most important detail in judging her, is that she could've easily ended the entire situation by confirming that AJ was, in fact, alive and well. She didn't, allowing the situation to grow from bad to even worse, forcing an 11 year old child to either witness or commit the killing of a human being.
I wasn't about to let Kenny play 'judge, jury, and executioner' against someone over a crime he had no proof that they had even committed, a… morend thus was revealed to never have technically committed in the first place.
There was no need for anyone to die and I do hold Jane responsible for her stupid plan in baiting Kenny into going berserk to prove a point, but there's no excuse for Kenny to try and murder her just because he lost himself in a blind fit of rage.
I don't know why (some) Jane fans act like you're forced to hold hands with Kenny; you can disagree with him, and I'm pretty sure you can say you think he's dangerous or something.
Exactly. I can never understand what this constant "oh, I was forced to be on Kenny's side" argument that's seen from the Janiacs is about, as it's not like they were pushed into being be his best buddy or something. Especially when considering it's not much different from the point of view from those who actually like Kenny and dislike Jane, as I never see an instance where we can bluntly say how we feel about her in in the game either.
The difference is that characters to do assume that you are close to Jane, whereas they all assume that you are with Kenny. Stating that you dislike him in the game would've been correcting a wrong impression rather than just stating an opinion. From the rest of characters' point of view, Clementine has a neutral relationship with Jane. That is the difference.
I don't know why (some) Jane fans act like you're forced to hold hands with Kenny; you can disagree with him, and I'm pretty sure you can sa… morey you think he's dangerous or something.
Exactly. I can never understand what this constant "oh, I was forced to be on Kenny's side" argument that's seen from the Janiacs is about, as it's not like they were pushed into being be his best buddy or something. Especially when considering it's not much different from the point of view from those who actually like Kenny and dislike Jane, as I never see an instance where we can bluntly say how we feel about her in in the game either.
Especially when considering it's not much different from the point of view from those who actually like Kenny and dislike Jane, as I never see an instance where we can bluntly say how we feel about her in in the game either.
I don't know why (some) Jane fans act like you're forced to hold hands with Kenny; you can disagree with him, and I'm pretty sure you can sa… morey you think he's dangerous or something.
Exactly. I can never understand what this constant "oh, I was forced to be on Kenny's side" argument that's seen from the Janiacs is about, as it's not like they were pushed into being be his best buddy or something. Especially when considering it's not much different from the point of view from those who actually like Kenny and dislike Jane, as I never see an instance where we can bluntly say how we feel about her in in the game either.
I think that the writers didn't really allow hard line positions of hatred towards either is because they (rightly imo) considered both to be the two best characters in the game and wanted Clementine to respect both on some level. As a big fan of both of them (more a fan of Kenny if honest) I didn't have much of a problem with this.
If you couldn't understand the argument then you should've asked instead of assuming that it has no base to it.
You are forced to bond with Kenny. The characters force you to talk him down everytime Kenny is having a tantrum, as if you're the only person who actually has a positive relationship with him, the only person who can, somehow, get to him.
"Clem, I was thinking now that you're here, maybe you could go talk to him (Kenny)?" -Bonnie, Amid The Ruins
"That's why I was thinking... You can go and talk to him (Kenny)?" -Bonnie, Amid The Ruins
"You're the only one he trusts, he really trusts. That means you're the one that's gonna have to pull him back." -Jane, No Going Back
"You better talk some sense into him (Kenny). For his sake" -Mike, No Going Back
And it's worth pointing out that when Mike says this sentence, he's not only looking at Clem like she's against him, but he also expresses some agressiveness in his tone of voice as if she's on the other side of the deal with Kenny.
When you go talk to Kenny, you can say some messed up shit to him, sure, but no-one in the group is really there to ear it. All the others know is that Clem gets into the tent, talks to Kenny and manages to bring him back. Wouldn't you assume that they had a good relationship?
The only stances where you can be really against Kenny in front of the group is when telling Becca "Kenny is being a jerk" or when sidding with Jane with her Howe's plan, but even then you aren't really against Kenny. You're not able to be against his plan.
I don't know why (some) Jane fans act like you're forced to hold hands with Kenny; you can disagree with him, and I'm pretty sure you can sa… morey you think he's dangerous or something.
Exactly. I can never understand what this constant "oh, I was forced to be on Kenny's side" argument that's seen from the Janiacs is about, as it's not like they were pushed into being be his best buddy or something. Especially when considering it's not much different from the point of view from those who actually like Kenny and dislike Jane, as I never see an instance where we can bluntly say how we feel about her in in the game either.
You are forced to bond with Kenny. The characters force you to talk him down everytime Kenny is having a tantrum, as if you're the only person who actually has a positive relationship with him, the only person who can, somehow, get to him.
Well, that's because Clem is the only person in the entire group who has any history with him, who has some sort of experience with seeing how Kenny reacts and how to deal with it. It's not necessarily because they assume Clem and Kenny are besties, but because they'd been in a group with each other previously.
There's also the facture that, no matter what you do to Ken, he still likes Clementine, which I'm sure the others, such as Mike and Bonnie, noticed, whatever you're feelings for him may or may not be. Not to mention, in comparison to Kenny's relations with everyone else, Clem is the only one he would listen to, so it makes sense for her to be the one to talk with him if he's in a state.
The only stances where you can be really against Kenny in front of the group is when telling Becca "Kenny is being a jerk" or when sidding with Jane with her Howe's plan, but even then you aren't really against Kenny. You're not able to be against his plan.
That may be true, but it's the same with regards to Jane, so I still don't get why you feel as if this is only a problem for Jane fans and/or Kenny haters. From a writing standpoint, it makes sense for Clem to talk with him when he's having his moments, though I'll admit Telltale probably should have made it optional, and that the other members in the group would assume Ken and Clem have a good relationship, as compared to how he treats everyone else, it would appear that way.
If you couldn't understand the argument then you should've asked instead of assuming that it has no base to it.
You are forced to bond wi… moreth Kenny. The characters force you to talk him down everytime Kenny is having a tantrum, as if you're the only person who actually has a positive relationship with him, the only person who can, somehow, get to him.
"Clem, I was thinking now that you're here, maybe you could go talk to him (Kenny)?" -Bonnie, Amid The Ruins
"That's why I was thinking... You can go and talk to him (Kenny)?" -Bonnie, Amid The Ruins
"You're the only one he trusts, he really trusts. That means you're the one that's gonna have to pull him back." -Jane, No Going Back
"You better talk some sense into him (Kenny). For his sake" -Mike, No Going Back
And it's worth pointing out that when Mike says this sentence, he's not only looking at Clem like she's against him, but he also expresses some agressiveness in his tone of … [view original content]
You're misunderstanding my point. I'm not saying that they make Clem talk to him because they think she trusts and likes him, but because they asume that because of their past together they have some sort of bond and when Clem sucessfully manages to get Kenny to snap out of his grief (twice determinantly), that bond becomes more than just apparent.
I should also add the fact that Kenny is always protective and caring towards Clem. If you saw someone acting like that towards another person I think you'd asume that the care is reciprocated?
That may be true, but it's the same with regards to Jane, so I still don't get why you feel as if this is only a problem for Jane fans and/or Kenny haters.
I agree, didn't say otherwise. I'm just trying to justify the usual 'the characters think you're on Kenny's side' argument. It's not completely baseless.
You are forced to bond with Kenny. The characters force you to talk him down everytime Kenny is having a tantrum, as if you're the only pers… moreon who actually has a positive relationship with him, the only person who can, somehow, get to him.
Well, that's because Clem is the only person in the entire group who has any history with him, who has some sort of experience with seeing how Kenny reacts and how to deal with it. It's not necessarily because they assume Clem and Kenny are besties, but because they'd been in a group with each other previously.
There's also the facture that, no matter what you do to Ken, he still likes Clementine, which I'm sure the others, such as Mike and Bonnie, noticed, whatever you're feelings for him may or may not be. Not to mention, in comparison to Kenny's relations with everyone else, Clem is the only one he would listen to, so it makes sense for her to be the one to talk with him if he's in a state.
… [view original content]
One of the biggest problems with season 2 was that we could not change our characters relationships like we could with Kenny and Lilly or Vernon and Brie for example in season 1. The only time in the entire game we saw a noticeable change was the way Bonnie treats you after Luke dies. She either turns against you and tells Mike to leave her after she's shot or you have a friendly conversation with her and shows concern after she's shot. That is genuinely the only character personality change in the entire game, even Kenny doesn't treat Clem differently like he did with Lee in season 1. In All That Remains if you don't pinkie swear/refuse to be friends with Sarah, there are literally tiny little changes of relationship you have with her like she won't say "don't hit my friend" if Carver slaps her and stuff like that but no obvious personality changes.
Honestly there could have been so much potential in season 2. Rebecca could have carried on treating Clem like crap as she did in episode 1 and allowed us to change her mind in later episodes but they never gave us that opportunity and instead just changed her to suddenly being nice. I was really looking forward to potential relationship changes and comparing them to different save files i'd make but alas they took that away from us in season 2. I remember the sitting with Luke/Kenny choice, if you sat with Luke it would clearly emphasise that "Kenny will remember that" and thought he'd comment on that later or hold it against me or perhaps be more against Luke than me. Also the choice of either giving up or searching for Luke/Kenny it shows Kenny in the episode 3 preview criticising Clem for giving up or not depending what you chose. I thought there and then we'd have 2 Kenny personalities like we did in Season 1 but sadly i was very disappointed. Even with Nick, Carlos and any other character. There was plenty of potential to forge different personalities from each character on how they treated Clem but nothing.
And we all know the final scene was always going to be Luke Vs Kenny but because fans were smart enough to work out the pizza/ice cream choice they changed it.
Invisible tags: @TWDazehnuu.
The difference is that characters to do assume that you are close to Jane, whereas they all assume that you … moreare with Kenny. Stating that you dislike him in the game would've been correcting a wrong impression rather than just stating an opinion. From the rest of characters' point of view, Clementine has a neutral relationship with Jane. That is the difference.
I feel that The Walking Dead as a franchise relies more heavily on the characters than the storyline itself, which is why it's such a shame that they did not show any concern over how you treat them throughout Season Two. Like you said, Bonnie was the only considerable variation.
For what it's worth, this was pretty much Michonne mini-series's forte. There are just so many dialogues that characters deliver differently or straight up change if you have treated them a certain way. The first one that the forum really noticed was that of Samantha when you are locked with her in Monroe's storage room.
One of the biggest problems with season 2 was that we could not change our characters relationships like we could with Kenny and Lilly or Ve… morernon and Brie for example in season 1. The only time in the entire game we saw a noticeable change was the way Bonnie treats you after Luke dies. She either turns against you and tells Mike to leave her after she's shot or you have a friendly conversation with her and shows concern after she's shot. That is genuinely the only character personality change in the entire game, even Kenny doesn't treat Clem differently like he did with Lee in season 1. In All That Remains if you don't pinkie swear/refuse to be friends with Sarah, there are literally tiny little changes of relationship you have with her like she won't say "don't hit my friend" if Carver slaps her and stuff like that but no obvious personality changes.
Honestly there could have been so much potential in season 2. Rebecca could have carried o… [view original content]
You're misunderstanding my point. I'm not saying that they make Clem talk to him because they think she trusts and likes him, but because they asume that because of their past together they have some sort of bond and when Clem sucessfully manages to get Kenny to snap out of his grief (twice determinantly), that bond becomes more than just apparent.
Oh, well, I get that and apologize for jumping to conclusions on your views. You're saying that because of how it's Clem who always calms Kenny down and their past history, that the other characters just automatically assume her and Kenny are close. To be honest, looking at it from that point, I can actually understand why you'd find it irritating that everyone in the game seems to think you like the one character you hate.
TellTale probably should have written the scenes in questions better, so that they could incorporate an option where Clem could choose to either talk with Ken or not, so that the likes of Bonnie wouldn't think there was a bond there, and the players who didn't like him wouldn't have to go through more scenes with him. Though I do get why they took the direction they did, as I explained in my previous comment.
You're misunderstanding my point. I'm not saying that they make Clem talk to him because they think she trusts and likes him, but because t… morehey asume that because of their past together they have some sort of bond and when Clem sucessfully manages to get Kenny to snap out of his grief (twice determinantly), that bond becomes more than just apparent.
I should also add the fact that Kenny is always protective and caring towards Clem. If you saw someone acting like that towards another person I think you'd asume that the care is reciprocated?
That may be true, but it's the same with regards to Jane, so I still don't get why you feel as if this is only a problem for Jane fans and/or Kenny haters.
I agree, didn't say otherwise. I'm just trying to justify the usual 'the characters think you're on Kenny's side' argument. It's not completely baseless.
You just summed up one of the intermingling flaws with Season 2.
And touched upon one of the reasons why Sarah, both as a concept and in execution, is awesome.
Jolly Good Show!
Honestly there could have been so much potential in season 2.
Actually, there was so much potential in season 2.
One of the biggest problems with season 2 was that we could not change our characters relationships like we could with Kenny and Lilly or Ve… morernon and Brie for example in season 1. The only time in the entire game we saw a noticeable change was the way Bonnie treats you after Luke dies. She either turns against you and tells Mike to leave her after she's shot or you have a friendly conversation with her and shows concern after she's shot. That is genuinely the only character personality change in the entire game, even Kenny doesn't treat Clem differently like he did with Lee in season 1. In All That Remains if you don't pinkie swear/refuse to be friends with Sarah, there are literally tiny little changes of relationship you have with her like she won't say "don't hit my friend" if Carver slaps her and stuff like that but no obvious personality changes.
Honestly there could have been so much potential in season 2. Rebecca could have carried o… [view original content]
Do any of them deserve to be shot? Did Larry and Walter both deserve to die because of Kenny's actions?
Also, Lee never killed his wife - he killed the state Senator who was sleeping with his wife. Sure I love Lee but that doesn't mean I perceive him as innocent and I didn't dislike Kenny just because he outright murdered Larry in front of Lilly and Clementine, well that was one reason, but then he started causing conflict within the group, he started getting others killed and left Lee/Clementine to die on at least a couple of occasions(some being determinant of course). In the end, we don't know what happened and what lead Lee to killing someone - we don't have the full story and he did end up giving up his own life for others - in particular, for a girl who had lost her parents with nowhere to go.
I think each of us get to decide what we perceive as 'good' or 'bad' - morality isn't as simple as people often state, it's complex - you can do something that is both good and bad depending on your intentions and how you act in terms of the situation. But in a post-apocalyptic world, are morals more important than survival?
Kenny would do anything to keep Clem safe, Jane on the other hand was a stubborn young girl who didn't know much about responsibility, and don't you forget that she told Clem to not let anyone drag her down and just leave them behind just because you don't owe them anything, well what if Clem dragged Jane down at some point ?
I doubt Kenny would've stayed in Howe's to keep Clementine safe, he abandoned her in the middle of a walker horde, he didn't try to save Clementine during the gunfight - she was just left on the ground with AJ near her, also Kenny didn't do anything to try and save Clementine when she was drowning - that was Jane and Kenny didn't try to stop the fight for Clementine, even when her wound opened up. So I wouldn't say anything, more so to an extent.
What responsibilities did Jane have though? I did disagree with her lone wolf survival instincts but that doesn't mean she's wrong - besides, it's up to Clementine (the player) to decide whether Jane's ideologies have an effect on Clementine.
In all honesty, I think the silliest part of the game was how everyone forgot about the town they were heading to in Episode 5 - no one even brought it up?
he does lash out and due to his anger issues, he's actually unable of controlling his actions completely when in that mind set, as his rashness takes over.
Whilst I do agree that Kenny shouldn't be blamed for his actions as our emotions dictate us more than we believe they do, he is still very much responsible for them. Kenny didn't seem to be trying to change his anger problems, as he often shouted, cursed and expressed rage throughout both Seasons and this makes him a danger to the group - it brings up the question of, what if someone disagreed with him and really made him mad? It was his anger towards Arvo and then at the group's opposing mind state that sparked an inner conflict and Kenny is largely responsible for that turmoil.
Jane, of course knew this and took advantage of it, but the most important detail in judging her, is that she could've easily ended the entire situation by confirming that AJ was, in fact, alive and well. She didn't, allowing the situation to grow from bad to even worse, forcing an 11 year old child to either witness or commit the killing of a human being.
I don't think we can state that Jane knew about Kenny's anger problems - remember that she was only around the group for a couple of days before coming back. Considering how she asked Clementine to put Kenny on the right path - I think she likely thought that he was just going through emotional pain at the time, which is why she was cautious at the Memorial Site. Also, I don't believe that Kenny would've ended the fight just if Jane told him that AJ was alive. Remember he was in a mind-state of full-on anger, if he managed to calm himself down at those words I don't think he would have as much trouble calming himself down at other points in time.
There was nothing forced about the decision Clementine made. Jane didn't grab Clementine's hands and made her shoot Kenny.
there's no excuse for Kenny to try and murder her just because he lost himself in a blind fit of rage.
While you're correct in the r… moreegard that what Kenny did is technically wrong and that it's certainty not acceptable behaviour on any grounds, I believe it should be taken into account of what Kenny's mental state was like at the time. When Kenny is put through the prospect that someone he cares about could've been killed, he does lash out and due to his anger issues, he's actually unable of controlling his actions completely when in that mind set, as his rashness takes over. Jane, of course knew this and took advantage of it, but the most important detail in judging her, is that she could've easily ended the entire situation by confirming that AJ was, in fact, alive and well. She didn't, allowing the situation to grow from bad to even worse, forcing an 11 year old child to either witness or commit the killing of a human being.
Whilst I do agree that Kenny shouldn't be blamed for his actions as our emotions dictate us more than we believe they do, he is still very much responsible for them. Kenny didn't seem to be trying to change his anger problems, as he often shouted, cursed and expressed rage throughout both Seasons and this makes him a danger to the group - it brings up the question of, what if someone disagreed with him and really made him mad? It was his anger towards Arvo and then at the group's opposing mind state that sparked an inner conflict and Kenny is largely responsible for that turmoil.
I agree and I've never said otherwise. Of course, Kenny is utterly responsible for his own behaviour, I just believe it's always important to understand the reasoning behind said acts, even at times, when they appear despicable (Arvo's treatment), and the fact, he obviously has severe mental issues, as it gives a better insight to what his intent is, which is usually, what he perceives to be the right thing. Now whether or not what he believes to be right, is actually correct, is completely up to the opinion of those playing the game.
While you're correct in the regards that Kenny doesn't try all to much to control his anger problem, it's crucial to remind ourselves of the world and environment that he and everyone else has been thrust into. The dead is literally walking and every second person you meet basically wind up dead, so for a man who already had a bit of temper before the apocalypse even began, to be expected to try and keep his shit together is clearly going to prove very difficult. There's also the added fact he lost his entire family in the space of a day and his life continuously goes from bad to worse within seconds (like his mental state, really). And anyway, it's not like he's going to receive much help in combating his issues when he's constantly trying to survive.
I don't think we can state that Jane knew about Kenny's anger problems - remember that she was only around the group for a couple of days before coming back. Considering how she asked Clementine to put Kenny on the right path - I think she likely thought that he was just going through emotional pain at the time, which is why she was cautious at the Memorial Site. Also, I don't believe that Kenny would've ended the fight just if Jane told him that AJ was alive. Remember he was in a mind-state of full-on anger, if he managed to calm himself down at those words I don't think he would have as much trouble calming himself down at other points in time.
I'd say it's clear Jane had known pretty damn well about Kenny's anger problems. She saw how he treated Arvo, how he treated the rest of the group, his constant shouting, rash judgements and not to mention, she'd had a full blown argument with him in the drive through the show, laying witness to how quickly he's prone to the emotion. Hell, her entire plan was built off of Kenny's anger - She wanted to show what he was capable of when he was faced with yet more grief, knowing that if she implied AJ was dead, he'd blame her and go into a murderous rage, proving to Clementine he was dangerous. If she didn't know how Kenny would react, her plan wouldn't have made any sense.
Personally, in my opinion, I believe Kenny wouldn't have continued the fight if Jane had just simply told the truth. He'd have no motivation to continue to do so and I'd highly doubt with the prospect of AJ needing care, that he'd put his and the baby's life at risk just so he continue his death match with Jane. His fatherly instinct would've kicked in, either prompting him to have Jane lead them to AJ's location or he'd instantly go to find him. Now, afterwards, I'd reckon he probably would request for Jane to be kicked from the group if things had gone that way, but I don't think he'd try to kill her now that he knew AJ was okay.
There was nothing forced about the decision Clementine made. Jane didn't grab Clementine's hands and made her shoot Kenny.
True, but Clementine would've never been forced to make such a difficult decision, between two people's lives, if Jane never decided to put her plan in action.
he does lash out and due to his anger issues, he's actually unable of controlling his actions completely when in that mind set, as his rashn… moreess takes over.
Whilst I do agree that Kenny shouldn't be blamed for his actions as our emotions dictate us more than we believe they do, he is still very much responsible for them. Kenny didn't seem to be trying to change his anger problems, as he often shouted, cursed and expressed rage throughout both Seasons and this makes him a danger to the group - it brings up the question of, what if someone disagreed with him and really made him mad? It was his anger towards Arvo and then at the group's opposing mind state that sparked an inner conflict and Kenny is largely responsible for that turmoil.
Jane, of course knew this and took advantage of it, but the most important detail in judging her, is that she could've easily ended the entire situation by confirming that AJ was, in fact, alive and … [view original content]
You just summed up one of the intermingling flaws with Season 2.
And touched upon one of the reasons why Sarah, both as a concept and in e… morexecution, is awesome.
Jolly Good Show!
Honestly there could have been so much potential in season 2.
Actually, there was so much potential in season 2.
At the lodge? You make it sound it was deliberate which certainly wasn't the case. I'd also argue the point that the cabin survivors brought their capture on themselves as none of it would have happened had they left sooner. Plus Kenny was the only person trying to help a group of people he owed nothing to do. Where was Luke at the time? And we were not to know that Carver wouldn't have killed anyone eventually if he hadn't got his way anyway. I'm not saying Kenny's actions were smart but be certainly didn't deliberately get people killed.
he abandoned her in the middle of a walker horde,
Yet she followed on as did everyone else and was no one's fault but hers that she fell behind and he didn't do it to be shitty, they all had their own problems at the time and Kenny had just lost Sarita and was very upset to think about anything else. I honestly don't class this as abandonment in the way you are thinking but you have my opinion
he didn't try to save Clementine during the gunfight - she was just left on the ground with AJ near her
Exactly how could he have saved her without getting himself killed? I am pretty sure it wasn't possible to do with all the gun fighting going on, plus the fact he was shooting at them along with the rest of the group was in itself protecting her/keeping them busy whilst she got to safety.
Kenny didn't do anything to try and save Clementine when she was drowning - that was Jane
And why do you think he didn't? So Kenny should run onto the ice (which was already cracking beneath their feet) to save Clem and risk himself, Clem and Jane all falling in?? Plus Jane was already there closest to Clem so why was there a need for an extra person to go on the ice?
Kenny didn't try to stop the fight for Clementine, even when her wound opened up.
And NEITHER did Jane who at this point was carrying on the fight as well and not stopping it despite Clementine's pleas, plus as we all know Kenny wasn't thinking about anything else at this point. His determinant comment after the fight was his belief that he was doing it to protect Clem because he strongly believed she'd killed AJ. And no i am not saying that he was in the right for doing so but it is what it is.
In all honesty, I think the silliest part of the game was how everyone forgot about the town they were heading to in Episode 5 - no one even brought it up?
Totally agree. It was disgraceful that they just completely scrapped this idea. I'd say the episode would have turned out very differently had they gone to the town
Do any of them deserve to be shot? Did Larry and Walter both deserve to die because of Kenny's actions?
Also, Lee never killed his wife -… more he killed the state Senator who was sleeping with his wife. Sure I love Lee but that doesn't mean I perceive him as innocent and I didn't dislike Kenny just because he outright murdered Larry in front of Lilly and Clementine, well that was one reason, but then he started causing conflict within the group, he started getting others killed and left Lee/Clementine to die on at least a couple of occasions(some being determinant of course). In the end, we don't know what happened and what lead Lee to killing someone - we don't have the full story and he did end up giving up his own life for others - in particular, for a girl who had lost her parents with nowhere to go.
I think each of us get to decide what we perceive as 'good' or 'bad' - morality isn't as simple as people often state, it's complex - you c… [view original content]
You're misinterpreting what I'm saying. I'm not complaining or saying that the characters making you talk to Kenny is unrealistic (I don't think it is, actually), I'm just saying that it shows that they think Clem has some sort of special bond with Kenny (understandably, because of their past together) and that Clem would never let go of him, hence Mike and Bonnie not taking her with them and Jane making the stupid-ass plan to make Clem see that Kenny was dangerously broken and that they had to leave him (something that some Clems already knew and wanted to leave as well).
Clem does not have an option to express that she doesn't have any kind of loyalty towards Kenny, that's all I'm saying.
It was both right and wrong to shoot him. Kenny is too hot-headed and "my way or highway" while Jane is too pessimistic and quiet (I guess), so yeah, they both aren't ideal kind of people to me.
What makes shooting Kenny more 'justified' is because he held a knife just above her throat. It'd be better if Jane folded up her plan when the whole group was there, so the baby was 100% safe, others would prevent phyisical fight, and Clementine would understand what Jane was trying to say.
I agree and I've never said otherwise. Of course, Kenny is utterly responsible for his own behaviour, I just believe it's always important to understand the reasoning behind said acts, even at times, when they appear despicable (Arvo's treatment), and the fact, he obviously has severe mental issues, as it gives a better insight to what his intent is, which is usually, what he perceives to be the right thing. Now whether or not what he believes to be right, is actually correct, is completely up to the opinion of those playing the game.
Nor did I ever imply you did. I agree, it's important to understand why people act the way they do but if people act dangerously, they should be treated with caution and compassion - at least in my personal perspective. I don't know how 'obvious' his mental issues are considering we only assume he has one - as I don't believe this has ever been confirmed, although that could all be due to writing. I'm not saying I don't think Kenny isn't facing a mental issue but since this is the universe where characters who are shot are miraculously fine after a couple of hours, it can be difficult to realize.
While you're correct in the regards that Kenny doesn't try all to much to control his anger problem, it's crucial to remind ourselves of the world and environment that he and everyone else has been thrust into. The dead is literally walking and every second person you meet basically wind up dead, so for a man who already had a bit of temper before the apocalypse even began, to be expected to try and keep his shit together is clearly going to prove very difficult. There's also the added fact he lost his entire family in the space of a day and his life continuously goes from bad to worse within seconds (like his mental state, really). And anyway, it's not like he's going to receive much help in combating his issues when he's constantly trying to survive.
But we don't know what his temper was like pre-apocalypse - nothing in the game indicates his behavior in the past, in fact, he's significantly calmer in the first couple of episodes of Season One. Now, I agree that people should still be treated as people even in the apocalypse, I don't expect that most characters were very calm when the dead started walking but there's the line of those who adapt and those who are prominently affected by the situation - if one cannot adapt, surviving will prove difficult - I think Kenny had the capability of adapting based on Sarita's comments about when they first met but Kenny's anger has only escalated to the point where he would kill someone without acknowledging the reasoning behind their actions. It comes to the point where I actually want to know if people who consider the reasoning behind Kenny's actions consider the reasoning behind Jane's and others as well.
I'd say it's clear Jane had known pretty damn well about Kenny's anger problems. She saw how he treated Arvo, how he treated the rest of the group, his constant shouting, rash judgements and not to mention, she'd had a full blown argument with him in the drive through the show, laying witness to how quickly he's prone to the emotion. Hell, her entire plan was built off of Kenny's anger - She wanted to show what he was capable of when he was faced with yet more grief, knowing that if she implied AJ was dead, he'd blame her and go into a murderous rage, proving to Clementine he was dangerous. If she didn't know how Kenny would react, her plan wouldn't have made any sense.
Considering the situation where Kenny had just lost Sarita, the Russian group attempting to kill Clementine's group and then again with Clementine having been shot, I don't think it's obvious in this scenario whether someone has anger problems or are emotionally reacting to the moment - remember that Kenny wasn't spiteful in entirety whilst the group were in Howe's - at least whilst Jane was present and Jane herself got quite mad in the car as she was emotionally reacting to the situation. Oh, I think her plan would've made sense regardless - a test to see how far Kenny's anger would take him, she left AJ in the car and she even unsheathed her weapon and tried to stop the fight a few times - giving Kenny ample chances to have stopped the fight himself. I agree that the execution of her plan was idiotic but the intention was understandable for someone with a survivalist mentality - remember to take Jane's reasoning behind her actions into account as well. If Kenny failed her test - she or he would die and if he passed it and she saw him as a safe individual to continue being around, then she'd have revealed AJ's location.
Personally, in my opinion, I believe Kenny wouldn't have continued the fight if Jane had just simply told the truth. He'd have no motivation to continue to do so and I'd highly doubt with the prospect of AJ needing care, that he'd put his and the baby's life at risk just so he continue his death match with Jane. His fatherly instinct would've kicked in, either prompting him to have Jane lead them to AJ's location or he'd instantly go to find him. Now, afterwards, I'd reckon he probably would request for Jane to be kicked from the group if things had gone that way, but I don't think he'd try to kill her now that he knew AJ was okay.
I'm afraid I have to disagree. Would Kenny really just stop fighting the woman that implied AJ, at that point in time the only thing he cared about, was dead or missing? Especially considering his treatment towards Arvo - a person he felt did him wrong and continued to punish regardless of whether Arvo was actively harming anyone or not. Since you've explained how uncontrollable Kenny gets when he's angry, I thought you'd hypothesize that he wouldn't stop either. His motivation simply would've been his anger - what motivated him to continue beating on defenseless Arvo when he could've just let him go when they got to the house? Plus, there's a good possibility that Kenny would've thought Jane was lying - she implies that AJ is gone but then she does a 180 and tells him the opposite? Wait... Jane already had told Kenny that she didn't kill AJ but Kenny called her a liar, if I recall.
True, but Clementine would've never been forced to make such a difficult decision, between two people's lives, if Jane never decided to put her plan in action.
Jane would never have felt she needed to test Kenny had he been a good teammate and not a dictator to his group that evidently expressed their disagreement with him and he didn't do anything to show them he could be a good leader.
Whilst I do agree that Kenny shouldn't be blamed for his actions as our emotions dictate us more than we believe they do, he is still very m… moreuch responsible for them. Kenny didn't seem to be trying to change his anger problems, as he often shouted, cursed and expressed rage throughout both Seasons and this makes him a danger to the group - it brings up the question of, what if someone disagreed with him and really made him mad? It was his anger towards Arvo and then at the group's opposing mind state that sparked an inner conflict and Kenny is largely responsible for that turmoil.
I agree and I've never said otherwise. Of course, Kenny is utterly responsible for his own behaviour, I just believe it's always important to understand the reasoning behind said acts, even at times, when they appear despicable (Arvo's treatment), and the fact, he obviously has severe mental issues, as it gives a better insight to what his intent is, which is… [view original content]
Yeah, considering Kenny spent the most time with AJ after Rebecca's death, it would be evident that he'd have formed a bond with AJ - especially since he was still mourning his son, one could argue that AJ was almost like a replacement for Duck or a means to a fill a void in his heart after his family's demise.
god yes your so right I honestly cant stand people who shot kenny for that manipulative bitch jane, Kenny is like the only thing from season 1 we have to cherish. now ill admit kenny does have some issues plus he lost his family on the same day! now I know some of you are going to try to call me a kennpoligist or whatever but kenny despite all his promblems I know he loves clem and AJ hence why he said hed rather have them at wellington than himself. on my playthrough I chose to stay with kenny, my lee and kenny in season 1 were like brothers and plus I wanted him to watch after clemtine not omid or christa because he knows what it means to have a family.I honestly cried when I thought kenny had died in season 1.not only that I mean how could anyone trust jane when you try to use a baby to start a fight, and abandon your own sister how can anyone like that have loyallty. so yeah fuck jane I wish there was an option to kill her myself.I hope that my dear kenny is alright in season 3 or I dont know what ill do.
Hey Dan, how are you? I haven't been on much sorry xD School Exams ;-;
At the lodge? You make it sound it was deliberate which certainly wasn't the case. I'd also argue the point that the cabin survivors brought their capture on themselves as none of it would have happened had they left sooner. Plus Kenny was the only person trying to help a group of people he owed nothing to do. Where was Luke at the time? And we were not to know that Carver wouldn't have killed anyone eventually if he hadn't got his way anyway. I'm not saying Kenny's actions were smart but be certainly didn't deliberately get people killed.
Primarily at the Lodge, yes. I know it wasn't deliberate - well, arguably it was since Clementine can attempt to stop Kenny. It was more so deliberate when Alvin is killed since Carver did state that he'd keep killing people if Kenny didn't stop shooting. That's a bit of a moot point - one could argue that the Cabin groups presence may have even saved Kenny and Sarita at that point in time since Bonnie does discover the Lodge regardless. That's debatable. Was Kenny helping others like Alvin? Or was he trying to save himself and his family only? Considering he only stops shooting when Clementine or Sarita are on the line it doesn't seem that he was trying to help the Cabin Group much. Luke? Who knows? Besides the point really - this discussion is about Kenny. Either way Kenny would make risks, sure, but considering how Carver came all this way for his group, I have quite a bit of doubt that he'd just kill everyone after. He may have not intended to - that I believe, however, his actions got people killed nonetheless.
Yet she followed on as did everyone else and was no one's fault but hers that she fell behind and he didn't do it to be shitty, they all had their own problems at the time and Kenny had just lost Sarita and was very upset to think about anything else. I honestly don't class this as abandonment in the way you are thinking but you have my opinion
She was shouting his name as she tried to catch up, running, but was slowed down by walkers. It's arguable that Kenny may have chosen to ignore her please for help - but I'd like to believe that wasn't the case. Well, Sarita was only determinantly lost at the time but I understand your point. I still class it as abandonment - Kenny was close enough to hear Clementine's pleas for help - judging by how far the individual group members were from each other but could still hear one another from quite a distance away but I may be over-analyzing - but to be fair I would also say that Mike and determinantly Sarita abandoned her as well but that's just my perspective.
Exactly how could he have saved her without getting himself killed? I am pretty sure it wasn't possible to do with all the gun fighting going on, plus the fact he was shooting at them along with the rest of the group was in itself protecting her/keeping them busy whilst she got to safety.
Perhaps at least acknowledging the fact that she was in the middle of a gunfight, as well as AJ? Considering Kenny's relationship with the two - you'd think he'd at least acknowledge their vulnerability but the heat of the moment could've gotten to him. I was replying to the OP's comment that Kenny would do anything to keep Clementine safe - I'm quite sure that risking his own life to save Clementine would count as anything, right?
And why do you think he didn't? So Kenny should run onto the ice (which was already cracking beneath their feet) to save Clem and risk himself, Clem and Jane all falling in?? Plus Jane was already there closest to Clem so why was there a need for an extra person to go on the ice?
He just stood there shouting, not even trying to save her - again, this was in reply to the OP's 'anything' statement - as I've quoted anything specific that I reply to - it's something new that I've been trying out xD
And NEITHER did Jane who at this point was carrying on the fight as well and not stopping it despite Clementine's pleas, plus as we all know Kenny wasn't thinking about anything else at this point. His determinant comment after the fight was his belief that he was doing it to protect Clem because he strongly believed she'd killed AJ. And no i am not saying that he was in the right for doing so but it is what it is.
I didn't say Jane wasn't responsible for the fight continuing but she at least gave Kenny multiple chances to stop the fight. Considering Kenny had tried to kill Jane, do you think she should've just stood there and let him claw at her? It's his assumption that initially began this fight, in my opinion, had Kenny let Jane explain and shown some understanding - considering he himself has gotten people killed and killed people before - then Jane would've likely revealed AJ's location and then Clementine could judge her actions then - Kenny would've been seen as the victim and Jane as more of a manipulator with false convictions herself.
Totally agree. It was disgraceful that they just completely scrapped this idea. I'd say the episode would have turned out very differently had they gone to the town
Also the inconsistency with the Russian group - I somehow doubt the likelihood of them showing up the day after or several days after the Observation Deck fell. Let's hope that TWDS3 has better consistency!
Hi Prink! Long time no speak!
he started getting others killed
At the lodge? You make it sound it was deliberate which certain… morely wasn't the case. I'd also argue the point that the cabin survivors brought their capture on themselves as none of it would have happened had they left sooner. Plus Kenny was the only person trying to help a group of people he owed nothing to do. Where was Luke at the time? And we were not to know that Carver wouldn't have killed anyone eventually if he hadn't got his way anyway. I'm not saying Kenny's actions were smart but be certainly didn't deliberately get people killed.
he abandoned her in the middle of a walker horde,
Yet she followed on as did everyone else and was no one's fault but hers that she fell behind and he didn't do it to be shitty, they all had their own problems at the time and Kenny had just lost Sarita and was very upset to think about anything else. I honestly don't … [view original content]
Come on, I may not agree with Kenny that much(especially since people assume this from a Jane fan) but those lines could just as simply indicate Kenny's worries for Rebecca and AJ - worried that AJ might fall from Rebecca's hands due to her state and even worries that Rebecca herself might be tiring herself out.
Kenny was obsessed with AJ the moment he was born.
Kenny: Let me hold the baby.
Rebecca: I got him.
Kenny: Nah nah. You need to rest.
Rebecca: I got him Kenny
Luke: Don't be weird about it Kenny.
(?)Not creepy at all
Has it really got to the point where Jane fans are blaming Kenny for loving a f*cking baby?? Honestly, if you're struggling that much to make Jane seem better than Kenny why not just join us? lol
Try this on for size: they were BOTH in the wrong. Kenny's becoming a dictator was not justifiable by the deaths of his family and girlfriend. Understandable maybe, not justifiable. He showed time and again he had no concern for anyone but himself and (arguably) Clementine and AJ. The rest of the group didn't even get a vote as far as he was concerned. His violence toward Mike, blaming Clementine for Sarita's death, abusing Arvo, hitting Clem, accident or not, stubbornness over the pickup, and yes, attacking Jane. Jane's only mistake was in not letting Clementine come to her own conclusion about Kenny. Jane had no right to force her hand by instigating a brutal fight. She instigated it by knowing he makes snap judgments and overreacts, often with hostility, yet deciding to be deceptive. If Arvo, an injured teen boy, wasn't off limits, why would she think Kenny was above taking out his frustration on a woman by that point? She knew the risk she was taking and it wasn't worth it to prove a point to endanger AJ like that. My Clementine thought she would be at more of a disadvantage only with a baby, or she wouldn't have went with either of them. I couldn't allow Kenny to murder Jane though, as I don't believe it was her intention to murder him, as dumb as she was playing it.
Grieving is OK but in Kenny's case it became to the detriment of the group even before that moment, all he does is acting before thinking and then being "sorry" when the damage has already been done, being sorry means that he realized what he did was wrong but it means nothing if he never learns from it by hurting other people who are suffering as much as him. I agree Jane's plan was beyond stupid but his grief doesn't excuse Kenny trying to kill her, he no longer wanted to listen to Clem, he was so blinded by his own anger he no longer wanted to listen to reason.
And everyone lost a loved one in TWD universe, Kenny is not someone special. That doesn't allow him to try to murder someone when there is n… moreo proof.
Everyone deals with grief differently, some worse than others. What he did was wrong but what Jane did was equally wrong.
Nor did I ever imply you did. I agree, it's important to understand why people act the way they do but if people act dangerously, they should be treated with caution and compassion - at least in my personal perspective. I don't know how 'obvious' his mental issues are considering we only assume he has one - as I don't believe this has ever been confirmed, although that could all be due to writing. I'm not saying I don't think Kenny isn't facing a mental issue but since this is the universe where characters who are shot are miraculously fine after a couple of hours, it can be difficult to realize.
I agree with that. Kenny is dangerous and can be an unstable person to be around, there's no disputing that and he does tend to jump to conclusions, causing disastrous results, despite his well-meaning intentions. And yes, his mental state really is all up for interpretation as Telltale have never came out and confirmed that he's suffering from anything, but, in my belief, someone who seems to have such difficulty staying calm and consider other possibilities outside of his opinion most of the time, isn't what would be qualified as stable. He's also quite violent, depressed, a possibly insomniac, slightly paranoid, and probably some other things I've forgotten.
But we don't know what his temper was like pre-apocalypse - nothing in the game indicates his behavior in the past, in fact, he's significantly calmer in the first couple of episodes of Season One. Now, I agree that people should still be treated as people even in the apocalypse, I don't expect that most characters were very calm when the dead started walking but there's the line of those who adapt and those who are prominently affected by the situation - if one cannot adapt, surviving will prove difficult - I think Kenny had the capability of adapting based on Sarita's comments about when they first met but Kenny's anger has only escalated to the point where he would kill someone without acknowledging the reasoning behind their actions. It comes to the point where I actually want to know if people who consider the reasoning behind Kenny's actions consider the reasoning behind Jane's and others as well.
Well, actually, that's not completely true. Yes, Kenny was hell of a lot calmer in the first interactions we see with him in S1, as he'd yet to be met with the extreme personal trauma of loosing Kat and Duck, but in one of the early conversations you have with him in the first episode, he mentions that some guy had grabbed Duck at a gas station and that he was "on the fucker in about two seconds", which knowing Kenny, probably meant he physically dealt with him, this being before he knew of the apocalypse. Of course that's a completely natural and normal response for a parent if they believe their child is in danger, but it does demonstrate that, by instinct, Kenny usually reacts with anger when in a stressful situation. Also in S1, his argument with Larry, where he quickly decides beating him would be the best option, and later on, the leadership struggle he has with Lilly could indicate that prior to the events of the Walking Dead, he did have temper issues, as I highly doubt these traits just appeared from nowhere.
I agree with you that Kenny is clearly heavily effected by the situation of the world's state and that unlike some others, he has struggled to adapt to it, but once he has someone he needs to protect, he can be quite survivalist. With Sarita (and later Clem/AJ), Kenny was finally able to regain a sense of purpose and hope in his life, where he'd do anything to ensure his and those he loves' survival, so when they're taken from him, he'll often resort to form and lash out uncontrollably. Though that's not saying he doesn't when they're in his life either, but he's noticeably in a better state when he has someone to protect.
And yes, I do take into consideration what Jane's motivations were and do understand she had good intentions, I just don't personally agree with how she went about it.
Considering the situation where Kenny had just lost Sarita, the Russian group attempting to kill Clementine's group and then again with Clementine having been shot, I don't think it's obvious in this scenario whether someone has anger problems or are emotionally reacting to the moment - remember that Kenny wasn't spiteful in entirety whilst the group were in Howe's - at least whilst Jane was present and Jane herself got quite mad in the car as she was emotionally reacting to the situation. Oh, I think her plan would've made sense regardless - a test to see how far Kenny's anger would take him, she left AJ in the car and she even unsheathed her weapon and tried to stop the fight a few times - giving Kenny ample chances to have stopped the fight himself. I agree that the execution of her plan was idiotic but the intention was understandable for someone with a survivalist mentality - remember to take Jane's reasoning behind her actions into account as well. If Kenny failed her test - she or he would die and if he passed it and she saw him as a safe individual to continue being around, then she'd have revealed AJ's location.
When put into comparison to how everyone else within the group reacted to the Russian situation and the added bonus of Kenny assaulting Arvo afterwards in sheer anger, I'd say Jane would've been able to figure out that, clearly, the fella's prone to rage unless she's blind or something. And in the car during the show storm, Jane, herself, even calls him "a bomb waiting to go off", which again, would suggest she knows he has issues controlling his hot-tempered nature and later when Kenny exists the vehicle, she determinately says that "everything makes him mad". My interpretation of Jane's plan is quite different from yours, actually. I didn't see it as her simply trying to test Kenny, to determine whether he was safe to be around the group, but it was a plan to specifically target something she knew Kenny deeply cared for, so that he would, as she expected, react in a murderous way. She even admits it herself when Kenny says that he'll kill her during the fight, stating "I knew you would". The only person who could've put the fight to a quick halt, really, was her by telling the truth that AJ was alive, but she didn't want that. She wanted Kenny to attempt to kill her, so that it would give Clem reason enough to leave with only her and ditch him. Now, I get that most likely Jane did truly believe Kenny was a danger to Clem and that he was a liability, so her intentions were indeed good, but for me, how she callously targeted Kenny using AJ, was all a bit ruthless and something I wouldn't be able to support.
I'm afraid I have to disagree. Would Kenny really just stop fighting the woman that implied AJ, at that point in time the only thing he cared about, was dead or missing? Especially considering his treatment towards Arvo - a person he felt did him wrong and continued to punish regardless of whether Arvo was actively harming anyone or not. Since you've explained how uncontrollable Kenny gets when he's angry, I thought you'd hypothesize that he wouldn't stop either. His motivation simply would've been his anger - what motivated him to continue beating on defenseless Arvo when he could've just let him go when they got to the house? Plus, there's a good possibility that Kenny would've thought Jane was lying - she implies that AJ is gone but then she does a 180 and tells him the opposite? Wait... Jane already had told Kenny that she didn't kill AJ but Kenny called her a liar, if I recall.
Yeah, I reckon he would've. AJ's presence alone would've calmed him down and he'd no longer be bothered with killing Jane, as he'd know that she didn't truly end the child's life. His desire to kill her only stemmed from the fact he genuinely believed she'd been responsible for AJ's demise, so I'd doubt that he'd run the risk of putting himself once again at the verge of death after realising AJ was living, especially when he had done so much already for the baby, simply so he could murder Jane, who would obviously fight back. And he'd also be too focused on ensuring that the kid was alright, anyway, and once that was settled, he'd have ditched Jane there, most likely after encouraging Clem to go with him. The difference with Arvo is that he and the Russians had purposely and forcefully set out of their way to harm the group, planning on stealing all their supplies, which could've led way for the possible deaths of multiple members, and later, engaging in a gun fight with them with full intention of murdering everyone. It was a direct attack against them, whilst Jane, if she proved that the child was alive to him, didn't purposely set about harming anyone, besides Kenny really, and in the end, AJ, who he was most concerned about, would've been okay. I'd also like to point out that after seeing Rebecca's dead body, Kenny goes straight into his abuse against Arvo, so while Arvo actively had no actual role in her death, he still felt that it was his fault someone in their group had died. And the reason he continued to beat on Arvo even when they'd gotten to the house was because, once again, he blamed him for the death of yet another member in the group - Luke, who drowned crossing the river Arvo had claimed was safe. While It is a possibility that Kenny wouldn't have believed Jane if she admitted the truth, I do think that he, having developed the attachment he did with AJ, would have latched onto any opportunity he could to see that he was alive.
Jane would never have felt she needed to test Kenny had he been a good teammate and not a dictator to his group that evidently expressed their disagreement with him and he didn't do anything to show them he could be a good leader.
Yeah, to be honest, that's a fair point. Considering I happened to agree with Kenny most of the time, it was never much of an issue for me, but you're right that he was indeed fairly tyrannical when it came to the decision making of the group. Though to be fair, he was really the only person that ever made suggestions or had a continuing plan.
EDIT: Fixed something. Shit, I didn't think that this would've been so long...
I agree and I've never said otherwise. Of course, Kenny is utterly responsible for his own behaviour, I just believe it's always important t… moreo understand the reasoning behind said acts, even at times, when they appear despicable (Arvo's treatment), and the fact, he obviously has severe mental issues, as it gives a better insight to what his intent is, which is usually, what he perceives to be the right thing. Now whether or not what he believes to be right, is actually correct, is completely up to the opinion of those playing the game.
Nor did I ever imply you did. I agree, it's important to understand why people act the way they do but if people act dangerously, they should be treated with caution and compassion - at least in my personal perspective. I don't know how 'obvious' his mental issues are considering we only assume he has one - as I don't believe this has ever been confirmed, although that could all be due to writing. I'm no… [view original content]
Hey Dan, how are you? I haven't been on much sorry xD School Exams ;-;
Yeah same old same old with me. I haven't been on as much as i used to lately either!
Primarily at the Lodge, yes. I know it wasn't deliberate - well, arguably it was since Clementine can attempt to stop Kenny. It was more so deliberate when Alvin is killed since Carver did state that he'd keep killing people if Kenny didn't stop shooting
Well i'd still say it wasn't deliberate in the sense that I don't think it was because he didn't care about what was going on. It was more of that he didn't think things through further about the consequences when he should have done. One would argue that after seeing Walter killed, Kenny got angry and wanted to get back at Carver but with Clem's determinant advice about not shooting anymore, he decided against it. At least it shows that he can actually listen at times when certain people get through to him.
one could argue that the Cabin groups presence may have even saved Kenny and Sarita at that point in time since Bonnie does discover the Lodge regardless.
How? Carver was after the cabin crew, not Kenny, Sarita and Walter. If the cabin gang were never there and Bonnie discovered the lodge and not noticed them there, i'd say they wouldn't have even bothered them as they were not their priority.
That's debatable. Was Kenny helping others like Alvin? Or was he trying to save himself and his family only? Considering he only stops shooting when Clementine or Sarita are on the line it doesn't seem that he was trying to help the Cabin Group much.
I said trying to help. And like it or not he WAS actually the only one trying to do something and that's a fact whether or not it wasn't helpful in your eyes or not is besides the point. He still tried and failed.
Luke? Who knows? Besides the point really - this discussion is about Kenny.
Well it doesn't matter if the discussion is about Kenny, i was involving Luke to make the point that he was nowhere to be seen and wasn't doing anything to help his friends and i feel the blame being solely on Kenny is a bit unfair as he and Luke and determinant Clem were the only ones free that could try and do something.
Either way Kenny would make risks, sure, but considering how Carver came all this way for his group, I have quite a bit of doubt that he'd just kill everyone after.
Actually i'm 99% certain he only came back for Rebecca who was most likely carrying his child and if necessary i think his actions proved he would have killed anyone in the group apart from her, and maybe not Carlos being a doctor. Ah well that's what i think anyway.
I would also say that Mike and determinantly Sarita abandoned her as well but that's just my perspective.
If Kenny is blamed here then yes definitely Mike and Sarita are to blame as well although Sarita less so as she'd only have one thing on her mind at that point. The thing is, another way to look at it is that Clem can look after herself as proven time and time again and i know that shouldn't be an excuse but still. Anyway it's a scene im not too fond of anyway.
Perhaps at least acknowledging the fact that she was in the middle of a gunfight, as well as AJ?
But i'd argue that he was being kept busy with the Russian shooting at him and wouldn't even have been thinking about anything else apart from his concern that these guys could kill him. What about Mike and Bonnie? Do they not count in checking to see if Clem and AJ were ok? This part along with the awful scene at the lake is the most hated scene from episode 5 in my opinion because realistically after the first shot was fired at the end of episode 4, the positioning of all the characters would suggest they'd all have killed each other/been mowed down. They certainly wouldn't have been able to get behind in cover. Can't tell you enough how bad the writing was here.
I was replying to the OP's comment that Kenny would do anything to keep Clementine safe - I'm quite sure that risking his own life to save Clementine would count as anything, right?
But he did risk his life for her in In Harm's Way by taking the blame for the missing radio which resulted in the loss of his eye. We had all seen Carver had no problem in slapping Clem if she spoke out of place so we can assume he would have beat her senseless if Kenny hadn't done what he did. And i guess putting Clem and AJ first at Wellington could count as risking his life by making sure they are safe whilst he stays out in the dangerous world instead of keeping them with him.
He just stood there shouting, not even trying to save her
Lol but dude what do you expect? Of course he was only going to stand there for the reason I stated above. He obviously knew that running back onto the ice to try and save her would have meant himself and Jane would have also fallen through the ice and as Jane was closest, she was able to get to her where the risk of ice breaking was less likely to happen than if Kenny had ran back on. That was common sense!
I didn't say Jane wasn't responsible for the fight continuing but she at least gave Kenny multiple chances to stop the fight.
But Jane knew what she was letting herself in for, she knew he wouldn't have listened to her. She wouldn't have even had to give him chances if she hadn't caused the fight to occur in the first place.
Considering Kenny had tried to kill Jane, do you think she should've just stood there and let him claw at her?
Of course not but here's the thing, Jane tries to kill Kenny too. Even if it doesn't seem as bad as how Kenny was acting in the fight, point is she still tried to kill him too. She charged towards him outside and this was when Kenny was unarmed and slowly walking backwards. She can determinately respond to Clem saying "it's time to put this crusty piece of shit out of his misery" and that is after Clem's determinant plea to ask her to back off. She refuses to do so and that's when she charges at Kenny herself. She was in the wrong as much as he was. They were trying to kill each other.
She gave him chances to leave etc but why didn't she up and leave herself then? She easily could have with the knife she had as Kenny was unarmed. She could have asked Clem there and then who she chooses to stay with.
Jane would've likely revealed AJ's location and then Clementine could judge her actions then
She had the chance many times but decided against it so i'd say it's unlikely she would have revealed his location IMO. Even if Kenny refused to believe her if she had told him, it goes back to the whole point that if she hadn't done what she did, none of this would have even happened in the first place. I want you to know that i do look at both sides and not just one side as a lot of people here always do when it's to do with the Kenny/Jane scene.
Anyway i always get carried away with this because i feel so strongly about this scene so i better end it here and now, hopefully it doesn't get out of hand
Hi Prink! Long time no speak!
Hey Dan, how are you? I haven't been on much sorry xD School Exams ;-;
At the lodge? You make it… more sound it was deliberate which certainly wasn't the case. I'd also argue the point that the cabin survivors brought their capture on themselves as none of it would have happened had they left sooner. Plus Kenny was the only person trying to help a group of people he owed nothing to do. Where was Luke at the time? And we were not to know that Carver wouldn't have killed anyone eventually if he hadn't got his way anyway. I'm not saying Kenny's actions were smart but be certainly didn't deliberately get people killed.
Primarily at the Lodge, yes. I know it wasn't deliberate - well, arguably it was since Clementine can attempt to stop Kenny. It was more so deliberate when Alvin is killed since Carver did state that he'd keep killing people if Kenny didn't stop shooting. That's a bit of a moot point - … [view original content]
And i never said it excused what he did but im telling you as to why a big part of what he did was to do with grief and probably the trauma of losing his eye made him even more hardened than ever before. And yeah he makes mistakes and does so frequently but again not everyone can change. The thing with me as a person, i'm very loyal and will stand by my friends through thick and thin. I'd want to keep trying to help Kenny as best i can. That's just me anyway. I know that a lot of people don't have the patience or soft touch that i have for people. It's fine though
Grieving is OK but in Kenny's case it became to the detriment of the group even before that moment, all he does is acting before thinking an… mored then being "sorry" when the damage has already been done, being sorry means that he realized what he did was wrong but it means nothing if he never learns from it by hurting other people who are suffering as much as him. I agree Jane's plan was beyond stupid but his grief doesn't excuse Kenny trying to kill her, he no longer wanted to listen to Clem, he was so blinded by his own anger he no longer wanted to listen to reason.
Has it really got to the point where Jane fans are blaming Kenny for loving a fcking baby??
To be fair, I don't think its *just Jane fans. We live in a time where "van with some candy" is a red flag, so of course some people are going to see a racist redneck holding a black baby and assume the worst.
To be honest Sleep, neither could Kenny fans express how they didn't like Jane.
In fact, we couldn't express any opinions about Jane.
Aw, come one. That's just not true. You may not be able to call her out for some things like causing the Russian attack and all, but you can express your distrust (or trust) for Jane in front of the group multiple times.
In Amd the Ruins, after Jane volunteers to go find a place for the baby and Bonnie fears that she migh leave, Clem can say three different things: she can say that they can trust her, she can remind Bonnie that she was the one that saved them or she can tell Bonnie and Luke that she is not comfortable with the baby coming, expressing distrust.
Later in the episode, when talking to Luke outside the observation deck, Luke asks about Jane. Clem can say, yet again, three different things: she can say that she trusts her, (I don't remember the neutral choice on this one) or she can outright say 'We can't trust her'. Yikes!
In No Going Back, at the campfire, Bonnie questions Jane's loyalty again, Clem is given the chance to give her two cents about the character yet again. She can say that they can trust her, she can remind them that she saved everyone or she can say that she is not sure about her, expressing distrust.
There are quite a few times where you can express how you feel about Jane, actually.
He was more concerned for the recently bitten Sarita at the time. If you kill the walker, Mike, Kenny, and Sarita take off with Clementine right behind them but a walker steps in her path and she gets separated from them because of it.
he didn't try to save Clementine during the gunfight - she was just left on the ground with AJ near her,
To be fair, Clementine took cover and Kenny was busy dealing with Vitali at the time. Considering Luke calls her over and admits that he didn't even see AJ out in the open, its safe to say that fighting off the Russians were the main focus at the time.
Kenny didn't do anything to try and save Clementine when she was drowning
He was busy saving Arvo at the time with Mike following close behind. Clementine drowning is her own fault depending on if she goes after Luke despite his protests or if she tries to save him by breaking the ice when Bonnie does so instead. Jane and Bonnie were the closest at the time to save her.
Kenny didn't try to stop the fight for Clementine
Well, this is just self explanatory. Kinda hard to expect a redneck known for his anger issues to stop his mortal duel with a sociopathic survivalist just because the little girl he's fairly recently accepted as being strong enough to take care of herself asked him to.
Do any of them deserve to be shot? Did Larry and Walter both deserve to die because of Kenny's actions?
Also, Lee never killed his wife -… more he killed the state Senator who was sleeping with his wife. Sure I love Lee but that doesn't mean I perceive him as innocent and I didn't dislike Kenny just because he outright murdered Larry in front of Lilly and Clementine, well that was one reason, but then he started causing conflict within the group, he started getting others killed and left Lee/Clementine to die on at least a couple of occasions(some being determinant of course). In the end, we don't know what happened and what lead Lee to killing someone - we don't have the full story and he did end up giving up his own life for others - in particular, for a girl who had lost her parents with nowhere to go.
I think each of us get to decide what we perceive as 'good' or 'bad' - morality isn't as simple as people often state, it's complex - you c… [view original content]
Comments
Everyone deals with grief differently, some worse than others. What he did was wrong but what Jane did was equally wrong.
What you said!
Though it could be argued that it completely misses the point...
Oh? If so, could you rephrase the idea?
I was just commenting that helping the character you like win the fight might be missing the point of making it a truly fair possibility for Jane to win.
While you're correct in the regard that what Kenny did is technically wrong and that it's certainty not acceptable behaviour on any grounds, I believe it should be taken into account of what Kenny's mental state was like at the time. When Kenny is put through the prospect that someone he cares about could've been killed, he does lash out and due to his anger issues, he's actually unable of controlling his actions completely when in that mind set, as his rashness takes over. Jane, of course knew this and took advantage of it, but the most important detail in judging her, is that she could've easily ended the entire situation by confirming that AJ was, in fact, alive and well. She didn't, allowing the situation to grow from bad to even worse, forcing an 11 year old child to either witness or commit the killing of a human being.
Exactly. I can never understand what this constant "oh, I was forced to be on Kenny's side" argument that's seen from the Janiacs is about, as it's not like they were pushed into being be his best buddy or something. Especially when considering it's not much different from the point of view from those who actually like Kenny and dislike Jane, as I never see an instance where we can bluntly say how we feel about her in in the game either.
Invisible tags: @TWDazehnuu.
The difference is that characters to do assume that you are close to Jane, whereas they all assume that you are with Kenny. Stating that you dislike him in the game would've been correcting a wrong impression rather than just stating an opinion. From the rest of characters' point of view, Clementine has a neutral relationship with Jane. That is the difference.
That was a problem with Jane in general.
I think that the writers didn't really allow hard line positions of hatred towards either is because they (rightly imo) considered both to be the two best characters in the game and wanted Clementine to respect both on some level. As a big fan of both of them (more a fan of Kenny if honest) I didn't have much of a problem with this.
If you couldn't understand the argument then you should've asked instead of assuming that it has no base to it.
You are forced to bond with Kenny. The characters force you to talk him down everytime Kenny is having a tantrum, as if you're the only person who actually has a positive relationship with him, the only person who can, somehow, get to him.
"Clem, I was thinking now that you're here, maybe you could go talk to him (Kenny)?" -Bonnie, Amid The Ruins
"That's why I was thinking... You can go and talk to him (Kenny)?" -Bonnie, Amid The Ruins
"You're the only one he trusts, he really trusts. That means you're the one that's gonna have to pull him back." -Jane, No Going Back
"You better talk some sense into him (Kenny). For his sake" -Mike, No Going Back
And it's worth pointing out that when Mike says this sentence, he's not only looking at Clem like she's against him, but he also expresses some agressiveness in his tone of voice as if she's on the other side of the deal with Kenny.
When you go talk to Kenny, you can say some messed up shit to him, sure, but no-one in the group is really there to ear it. All the others know is that Clem gets into the tent, talks to Kenny and manages to bring him back. Wouldn't you assume that they had a good relationship?
The only stances where you can be really against Kenny in front of the group is when telling Becca "Kenny is being a jerk" or when sidding with Jane with her Howe's plan, but even then you aren't really against Kenny. You're not able to be against his plan.
Well, that's because Clem is the only person in the entire group who has any history with him, who has some sort of experience with seeing how Kenny reacts and how to deal with it. It's not necessarily because they assume Clem and Kenny are besties, but because they'd been in a group with each other previously.
There's also the facture that, no matter what you do to Ken, he still likes Clementine, which I'm sure the others, such as Mike and Bonnie, noticed, whatever you're feelings for him may or may not be. Not to mention, in comparison to Kenny's relations with everyone else, Clem is the only one he would listen to, so it makes sense for her to be the one to talk with him if he's in a state.
That may be true, but it's the same with regards to Jane, so I still don't get why you feel as if this is only a problem for Jane fans and/or Kenny haters. From a writing standpoint, it makes sense for Clem to talk with him when he's having his moments, though I'll admit Telltale probably should have made it optional, and that the other members in the group would assume Ken and Clem have a good relationship, as compared to how he treats everyone else, it would appear that way.
You're misunderstanding my point. I'm not saying that they make Clem talk to him because they think she trusts and likes him, but because they asume that because of their past together they have some sort of bond and when Clem sucessfully manages to get Kenny to snap out of his grief (twice determinantly), that bond becomes more than just apparent.
I should also add the fact that Kenny is always protective and caring towards Clem. If you saw someone acting like that towards another person I think you'd asume that the care is reciprocated?
I agree, didn't say otherwise. I'm just trying to justify the usual 'the characters think you're on Kenny's side' argument. It's not completely baseless.
One of the biggest problems with season 2 was that we could not change our characters relationships like we could with Kenny and Lilly or Vernon and Brie for example in season 1. The only time in the entire game we saw a noticeable change was the way Bonnie treats you after Luke dies. She either turns against you and tells Mike to leave her after she's shot or you have a friendly conversation with her and shows concern after she's shot. That is genuinely the only character personality change in the entire game, even Kenny doesn't treat Clem differently like he did with Lee in season 1. In All That Remains if you don't pinkie swear/refuse to be friends with Sarah, there are literally tiny little changes of relationship you have with her like she won't say "don't hit my friend" if Carver slaps her and stuff like that but no obvious personality changes.
Honestly there could have been so much potential in season 2. Rebecca could have carried on treating Clem like crap as she did in episode 1 and allowed us to change her mind in later episodes but they never gave us that opportunity and instead just changed her to suddenly being nice. I was really looking forward to potential relationship changes and comparing them to different save files i'd make but alas they took that away from us in season 2. I remember the sitting with Luke/Kenny choice, if you sat with Luke it would clearly emphasise that "Kenny will remember that" and thought he'd comment on that later or hold it against me or perhaps be more against Luke than me. Also the choice of either giving up or searching for Luke/Kenny it shows Kenny in the episode 3 preview criticising Clem for giving up or not depending what you chose. I thought there and then we'd have 2 Kenny personalities like we did in Season 1 but sadly i was very disappointed. Even with Nick, Carlos and any other character. There was plenty of potential to forge different personalities from each character on how they treated Clem but nothing.
And we all know the final scene was always going to be Luke Vs Kenny but because fans were smart enough to work out the pizza/ice cream choice they changed it.
Sorry for the long post haha
Truth has been spoken!
I feel that The Walking Dead as a franchise relies more heavily on the characters than the storyline itself, which is why it's such a shame that they did not show any concern over how you treat them throughout Season Two. Like you said, Bonnie was the only considerable variation.
For what it's worth, this was pretty much Michonne mini-series's forte. There are just so many dialogues that characters deliver differently or straight up change if you have treated them a certain way. The first one that the forum really noticed was that of Samantha when you are locked with her in Monroe's storage room.
Oh, well, I get that and apologize for jumping to conclusions on your views. You're saying that because of how it's Clem who always calms Kenny down and their past history, that the other characters just automatically assume her and Kenny are close. To be honest, looking at it from that point, I can actually understand why you'd find it irritating that everyone in the game seems to think you like the one character you hate.
TellTale probably should have written the scenes in questions better, so that they could incorporate an option where Clem could choose to either talk with Ken or not, so that the likes of Bonnie wouldn't think there was a bond there, and the players who didn't like him wouldn't have to go through more scenes with him. Though I do get why they took the direction they did, as I explained in my previous comment.
You just summed up one of the intermingling flaws with Season 2.
And touched upon one of the reasons why Sarah, both as a concept and in execution, is awesome.
Jolly Good Show!
Actually, there was so much potential in season 2.
Do any of them deserve to be shot? Did Larry and Walter both deserve to die because of Kenny's actions?
Also, Lee never killed his wife - he killed the state Senator who was sleeping with his wife. Sure I love Lee but that doesn't mean I perceive him as innocent and I didn't dislike Kenny just because he outright murdered Larry in front of Lilly and Clementine, well that was one reason, but then he started causing conflict within the group, he started getting others killed and left Lee/Clementine to die on at least a couple of occasions(some being determinant of course). In the end, we don't know what happened and what lead Lee to killing someone - we don't have the full story and he did end up giving up his own life for others - in particular, for a girl who had lost her parents with nowhere to go.
I think each of us get to decide what we perceive as 'good' or 'bad' - morality isn't as simple as people often state, it's complex - you can do something that is both good and bad depending on your intentions and how you act in terms of the situation. But in a post-apocalyptic world, are morals more important than survival?
I doubt Kenny would've stayed in Howe's to keep Clementine safe, he abandoned her in the middle of a walker horde, he didn't try to save Clementine during the gunfight - she was just left on the ground with AJ near her, also Kenny didn't do anything to try and save Clementine when she was drowning - that was Jane and Kenny didn't try to stop the fight for Clementine, even when her wound opened up. So I wouldn't say anything, more so to an extent.
What responsibilities did Jane have though? I did disagree with her lone wolf survival instincts but that doesn't mean she's wrong - besides, it's up to Clementine (the player) to decide whether Jane's ideologies have an effect on Clementine.
In all honesty, I think the silliest part of the game was how everyone forgot about the town they were heading to in Episode 5 - no one even brought it up?
I think some people just don't like Kenny's obsessiveness towards AJ - likely due to his paternal instincts since he was a father.
Whilst I do agree that Kenny shouldn't be blamed for his actions as our emotions dictate us more than we believe they do, he is still very much responsible for them. Kenny didn't seem to be trying to change his anger problems, as he often shouted, cursed and expressed rage throughout both Seasons and this makes him a danger to the group - it brings up the question of, what if someone disagreed with him and really made him mad? It was his anger towards Arvo and then at the group's opposing mind state that sparked an inner conflict and Kenny is largely responsible for that turmoil.
I don't think we can state that Jane knew about Kenny's anger problems - remember that she was only around the group for a couple of days before coming back. Considering how she asked Clementine to put Kenny on the right path - I think she likely thought that he was just going through emotional pain at the time, which is why she was cautious at the Memorial Site. Also, I don't believe that Kenny would've ended the fight just if Jane told him that AJ was alive. Remember he was in a mind-state of full-on anger, if he managed to calm himself down at those words I don't think he would have as much trouble calming himself down at other points in time.
There was nothing forced about the decision Clementine made. Jane didn't grab Clementine's hands and made her shoot Kenny.
I agree and I've never said otherwise. Of course, Kenny is utterly responsible for his own behaviour, I just believe it's always important to understand the reasoning behind said acts, even at times, when they appear despicable (Arvo's treatment), and the fact, he obviously has severe mental issues, as it gives a better insight to what his intent is, which is usually, what he perceives to be the right thing. Now whether or not what he believes to be right, is actually correct, is completely up to the opinion of those playing the game.
While you're correct in the regards that Kenny doesn't try all to much to control his anger problem, it's crucial to remind ourselves of the world and environment that he and everyone else has been thrust into. The dead is literally walking and every second person you meet basically wind up dead, so for a man who already had a bit of temper before the apocalypse even began, to be expected to try and keep his shit together is clearly going to prove very difficult. There's also the added fact he lost his entire family in the space of a day and his life continuously goes from bad to worse within seconds (like his mental state, really). And anyway, it's not like he's going to receive much help in combating his issues when he's constantly trying to survive.
I'd say it's clear Jane had known pretty damn well about Kenny's anger problems. She saw how he treated Arvo, how he treated the rest of the group, his constant shouting, rash judgements and not to mention, she'd had a full blown argument with him in the drive through the show, laying witness to how quickly he's prone to the emotion. Hell, her entire plan was built off of Kenny's anger - She wanted to show what he was capable of when he was faced with yet more grief, knowing that if she implied AJ was dead, he'd blame her and go into a murderous rage, proving to Clementine he was dangerous. If she didn't know how Kenny would react, her plan wouldn't have made any sense.
Personally, in my opinion, I believe Kenny wouldn't have continued the fight if Jane had just simply told the truth. He'd have no motivation to continue to do so and I'd highly doubt with the prospect of AJ needing care, that he'd put his and the baby's life at risk just so he continue his death match with Jane. His fatherly instinct would've kicked in, either prompting him to have Jane lead them to AJ's location or he'd instantly go to find him. Now, afterwards, I'd reckon he probably would request for Jane to be kicked from the group if things had gone that way, but I don't think he'd try to kill her now that he knew AJ was okay.
True, but Clementine would've never been forced to make such a difficult decision, between two people's lives, if Jane never decided to put her plan in action.
But could have had so much more potential
Hi Prink! Long time no speak!
At the lodge? You make it sound it was deliberate which certainly wasn't the case. I'd also argue the point that the cabin survivors brought their capture on themselves as none of it would have happened had they left sooner. Plus Kenny was the only person trying to help a group of people he owed nothing to do. Where was Luke at the time? And we were not to know that Carver wouldn't have killed anyone eventually if he hadn't got his way anyway. I'm not saying Kenny's actions were smart but be certainly didn't deliberately get people killed.
Yet she followed on as did everyone else and was no one's fault but hers that she fell behind and he didn't do it to be shitty, they all had their own problems at the time and Kenny had just lost Sarita and was very upset to think about anything else. I honestly don't class this as abandonment in the way you are thinking but you have my opinion
Exactly how could he have saved her without getting himself killed? I am pretty sure it wasn't possible to do with all the gun fighting going on, plus the fact he was shooting at them along with the rest of the group was in itself protecting her/keeping them busy whilst she got to safety.
And why do you think he didn't? So Kenny should run onto the ice (which was already cracking beneath their feet) to save Clem and risk himself, Clem and Jane all falling in?? Plus Jane was already there closest to Clem so why was there a need for an extra person to go on the ice?
And NEITHER did Jane who at this point was carrying on the fight as well and not stopping it despite Clementine's pleas, plus as we all know Kenny wasn't thinking about anything else at this point. His determinant comment after the fight was his belief that he was doing it to protect Clem because he strongly believed she'd killed AJ. And no i am not saying that he was in the right for doing so but it is what it is.
Totally agree. It was disgraceful that they just completely scrapped this idea. I'd say the episode would have turned out very differently had they gone to the town
You're misinterpreting what I'm saying. I'm not complaining or saying that the characters making you talk to Kenny is unrealistic (I don't think it is, actually), I'm just saying that it shows that they think Clem has some sort of special bond with Kenny (understandably, because of their past together) and that Clem would never let go of him, hence Mike and Bonnie not taking her with them and Jane making the stupid-ass plan to make Clem see that Kenny was dangerously broken and that they had to leave him (something that some Clems already knew and wanted to leave as well).
Clem does not have an option to express that she doesn't have any kind of loyalty towards Kenny, that's all I'm saying.
It was both right and wrong to shoot him. Kenny is too hot-headed and "my way or highway" while Jane is too pessimistic and quiet (I guess), so yeah, they both aren't ideal kind of people to me.
What makes shooting Kenny more 'justified' is because he held a knife just above her throat. It'd be better if Jane folded up her plan when the whole group was there, so the baby was 100% safe, others would prevent phyisical fight, and Clementine would understand what Jane was trying to say.
Nor did I ever imply you did. I agree, it's important to understand why people act the way they do but if people act dangerously, they should be treated with caution and compassion - at least in my personal perspective. I don't know how 'obvious' his mental issues are considering we only assume he has one - as I don't believe this has ever been confirmed, although that could all be due to writing. I'm not saying I don't think Kenny isn't facing a mental issue but since this is the universe where characters who are shot are miraculously fine after a couple of hours, it can be difficult to realize.
But we don't know what his temper was like pre-apocalypse - nothing in the game indicates his behavior in the past, in fact, he's significantly calmer in the first couple of episodes of Season One. Now, I agree that people should still be treated as people even in the apocalypse, I don't expect that most characters were very calm when the dead started walking but there's the line of those who adapt and those who are prominently affected by the situation - if one cannot adapt, surviving will prove difficult - I think Kenny had the capability of adapting based on Sarita's comments about when they first met but Kenny's anger has only escalated to the point where he would kill someone without acknowledging the reasoning behind their actions. It comes to the point where I actually want to know if people who consider the reasoning behind Kenny's actions consider the reasoning behind Jane's and others as well.
Considering the situation where Kenny had just lost Sarita, the Russian group attempting to kill Clementine's group and then again with Clementine having been shot, I don't think it's obvious in this scenario whether someone has anger problems or are emotionally reacting to the moment - remember that Kenny wasn't spiteful in entirety whilst the group were in Howe's - at least whilst Jane was present and Jane herself got quite mad in the car as she was emotionally reacting to the situation. Oh, I think her plan would've made sense regardless - a test to see how far Kenny's anger would take him, she left AJ in the car and she even unsheathed her weapon and tried to stop the fight a few times - giving Kenny ample chances to have stopped the fight himself. I agree that the execution of her plan was idiotic but the intention was understandable for someone with a survivalist mentality - remember to take Jane's reasoning behind her actions into account as well. If Kenny failed her test - she or he would die and if he passed it and she saw him as a safe individual to continue being around, then she'd have revealed AJ's location.
I'm afraid I have to disagree. Would Kenny really just stop fighting the woman that implied AJ, at that point in time the only thing he cared about, was dead or missing? Especially considering his treatment towards Arvo - a person he felt did him wrong and continued to punish regardless of whether Arvo was actively harming anyone or not. Since you've explained how uncontrollable Kenny gets when he's angry, I thought you'd hypothesize that he wouldn't stop either. His motivation simply would've been his anger - what motivated him to continue beating on defenseless Arvo when he could've just let him go when they got to the house? Plus, there's a good possibility that Kenny would've thought Jane was lying - she implies that AJ is gone but then she does a 180 and tells him the opposite? Wait... Jane already had told Kenny that she didn't kill AJ but Kenny called her a liar, if I recall.
Jane would never have felt she needed to test Kenny had he been a good teammate and not a dictator to his group that evidently expressed their disagreement with him and he didn't do anything to show them he could be a good leader.
Yeah, considering Kenny spent the most time with AJ after Rebecca's death, it would be evident that he'd have formed a bond with AJ - especially since he was still mourning his son, one could argue that AJ was almost like a replacement for Duck or a means to a fill a void in his heart after his family's demise.
god yes your so right I honestly cant stand people who shot kenny for that manipulative bitch jane, Kenny is like the only thing from season 1 we have to cherish. now ill admit kenny does have some issues plus he lost his family on the same day! now I know some of you are going to try to call me a kennpoligist or whatever but kenny despite all his promblems I know he loves clem and AJ hence why he said hed rather have them at wellington than himself. on my playthrough I chose to stay with kenny, my lee and kenny in season 1 were like brothers and plus I wanted him to watch after clemtine not omid or christa because he knows what it means to have a family.I honestly cried when I thought kenny had died in season 1.not only that I mean how could anyone trust jane when you try to use a baby to start a fight, and abandon your own sister how can anyone like that have loyallty. so yeah fuck jane I wish there was an option to kill her myself.I hope that my dear kenny is alright in season 3 or I dont know what ill do.
Kenny was obsessed with AJ the moment he was born.
Kenny: Let me hold the baby.
Rebecca: I got him.
Kenny: Nah nah. You need to rest.
Rebecca: I got him Kenny
Luke: Don't be weird about it Kenny.
(?)Not creepy at all
Hey Dan, how are you? I haven't been on much sorry xD School Exams ;-;
Primarily at the Lodge, yes. I know it wasn't deliberate - well, arguably it was since Clementine can attempt to stop Kenny. It was more so deliberate when Alvin is killed since Carver did state that he'd keep killing people if Kenny didn't stop shooting. That's a bit of a moot point - one could argue that the Cabin groups presence may have even saved Kenny and Sarita at that point in time since Bonnie does discover the Lodge regardless. That's debatable. Was Kenny helping others like Alvin? Or was he trying to save himself and his family only? Considering he only stops shooting when Clementine or Sarita are on the line it doesn't seem that he was trying to help the Cabin Group much. Luke? Who knows? Besides the point really - this discussion is about Kenny. Either way Kenny would make risks, sure, but considering how Carver came all this way for his group, I have quite a bit of doubt that he'd just kill everyone after. He may have not intended to - that I believe, however, his actions got people killed nonetheless.
She was shouting his name as she tried to catch up, running, but was slowed down by walkers. It's arguable that Kenny may have chosen to ignore her please for help - but I'd like to believe that wasn't the case. Well, Sarita was only determinantly lost at the time but I understand your point. I still class it as abandonment - Kenny was close enough to hear Clementine's pleas for help - judging by how far the individual group members were from each other but could still hear one another from quite a distance away but I may be over-analyzing - but to be fair I would also say that Mike and determinantly Sarita abandoned her as well but that's just my perspective.
Perhaps at least acknowledging the fact that she was in the middle of a gunfight, as well as AJ? Considering Kenny's relationship with the two - you'd think he'd at least acknowledge their vulnerability but the heat of the moment could've gotten to him. I was replying to the OP's comment that Kenny would do anything to keep Clementine safe - I'm quite sure that risking his own life to save Clementine would count as anything, right?
He just stood there shouting, not even trying to save her - again, this was in reply to the OP's 'anything' statement - as I've quoted anything specific that I reply to - it's something new that I've been trying out xD
I didn't say Jane wasn't responsible for the fight continuing but she at least gave Kenny multiple chances to stop the fight. Considering Kenny had tried to kill Jane, do you think she should've just stood there and let him claw at her? It's his assumption that initially began this fight, in my opinion, had Kenny let Jane explain and shown some understanding - considering he himself has gotten people killed and killed people before - then Jane would've likely revealed AJ's location and then Clementine could judge her actions then - Kenny would've been seen as the victim and Jane as more of a manipulator with false convictions herself.
Also the inconsistency with the Russian group - I somehow doubt the likelihood of them showing up the day after or several days after the Observation Deck fell. Let's hope that TWDS3 has better consistency!
Come on, I may not agree with Kenny that much(especially since people assume this from a Jane fan) but those lines could just as simply indicate Kenny's worries for Rebecca and AJ - worried that AJ might fall from Rebecca's hands due to her state and even worries that Rebecca herself might be tiring herself out.
Luke said it, not me.
What does Jane have to with this?
Try this on for size: they were BOTH in the wrong. Kenny's becoming a dictator was not justifiable by the deaths of his family and girlfriend. Understandable maybe, not justifiable. He showed time and again he had no concern for anyone but himself and (arguably) Clementine and AJ. The rest of the group didn't even get a vote as far as he was concerned. His violence toward Mike, blaming Clementine for Sarita's death, abusing Arvo, hitting Clem, accident or not, stubbornness over the pickup, and yes, attacking Jane. Jane's only mistake was in not letting Clementine come to her own conclusion about Kenny. Jane had no right to force her hand by instigating a brutal fight. She instigated it by knowing he makes snap judgments and overreacts, often with hostility, yet deciding to be deceptive. If Arvo, an injured teen boy, wasn't off limits, why would she think Kenny was above taking out his frustration on a woman by that point? She knew the risk she was taking and it wasn't worth it to prove a point to endanger AJ like that. My Clementine thought she would be at more of a disadvantage only with a baby, or she wouldn't have went with either of them. I couldn't allow Kenny to murder Jane though, as I don't believe it was her intention to murder him, as dumb as she was playing it.
Grieving is OK but in Kenny's case it became to the detriment of the group even before that moment, all he does is acting before thinking and then being "sorry" when the damage has already been done, being sorry means that he realized what he did was wrong but it means nothing if he never learns from it by hurting other people who are suffering as much as him. I agree Jane's plan was beyond stupid but his grief doesn't excuse Kenny trying to kill her, he no longer wanted to listen to Clem, he was so blinded by his own anger he no longer wanted to listen to reason.
I agree with that. Kenny is dangerous and can be an unstable person to be around, there's no disputing that and he does tend to jump to conclusions, causing disastrous results, despite his well-meaning intentions. And yes, his mental state really is all up for interpretation as Telltale have never came out and confirmed that he's suffering from anything, but, in my belief, someone who seems to have such difficulty staying calm and consider other possibilities outside of his opinion most of the time, isn't what would be qualified as stable. He's also quite violent, depressed, a possibly insomniac, slightly paranoid, and probably some other things I've forgotten.
Well, actually, that's not completely true. Yes, Kenny was hell of a lot calmer in the first interactions we see with him in S1, as he'd yet to be met with the extreme personal trauma of loosing Kat and Duck, but in one of the early conversations you have with him in the first episode, he mentions that some guy had grabbed Duck at a gas station and that he was "on the fucker in about two seconds", which knowing Kenny, probably meant he physically dealt with him, this being before he knew of the apocalypse. Of course that's a completely natural and normal response for a parent if they believe their child is in danger, but it does demonstrate that, by instinct, Kenny usually reacts with anger when in a stressful situation. Also in S1, his argument with Larry, where he quickly decides beating him would be the best option, and later on, the leadership struggle he has with Lilly could indicate that prior to the events of the Walking Dead, he did have temper issues, as I highly doubt these traits just appeared from nowhere.
I agree with you that Kenny is clearly heavily effected by the situation of the world's state and that unlike some others, he has struggled to adapt to it, but once he has someone he needs to protect, he can be quite survivalist. With Sarita (and later Clem/AJ), Kenny was finally able to regain a sense of purpose and hope in his life, where he'd do anything to ensure his and those he loves' survival, so when they're taken from him, he'll often resort to form and lash out uncontrollably. Though that's not saying he doesn't when they're in his life either, but he's noticeably in a better state when he has someone to protect.
And yes, I do take into consideration what Jane's motivations were and do understand she had good intentions, I just don't personally agree with how she went about it.
When put into comparison to how everyone else within the group reacted to the Russian situation and the added bonus of Kenny assaulting Arvo afterwards in sheer anger, I'd say Jane would've been able to figure out that, clearly, the fella's prone to rage unless she's blind or something. And in the car during the show storm, Jane, herself, even calls him "a bomb waiting to go off", which again, would suggest she knows he has issues controlling his hot-tempered nature and later when Kenny exists the vehicle, she determinately says that "everything makes him mad". My interpretation of Jane's plan is quite different from yours, actually. I didn't see it as her simply trying to test Kenny, to determine whether he was safe to be around the group, but it was a plan to specifically target something she knew Kenny deeply cared for, so that he would, as she expected, react in a murderous way. She even admits it herself when Kenny says that he'll kill her during the fight, stating "I knew you would". The only person who could've put the fight to a quick halt, really, was her by telling the truth that AJ was alive, but she didn't want that. She wanted Kenny to attempt to kill her, so that it would give Clem reason enough to leave with only her and ditch him. Now, I get that most likely Jane did truly believe Kenny was a danger to Clem and that he was a liability, so her intentions were indeed good, but for me, how she callously targeted Kenny using AJ, was all a bit ruthless and something I wouldn't be able to support.
Yeah, I reckon he would've. AJ's presence alone would've calmed him down and he'd no longer be bothered with killing Jane, as he'd know that she didn't truly end the child's life. His desire to kill her only stemmed from the fact he genuinely believed she'd been responsible for AJ's demise, so I'd doubt that he'd run the risk of putting himself once again at the verge of death after realising AJ was living, especially when he had done so much already for the baby, simply so he could murder Jane, who would obviously fight back. And he'd also be too focused on ensuring that the kid was alright, anyway, and once that was settled, he'd have ditched Jane there, most likely after encouraging Clem to go with him. The difference with Arvo is that he and the Russians had purposely and forcefully set out of their way to harm the group, planning on stealing all their supplies, which could've led way for the possible deaths of multiple members, and later, engaging in a gun fight with them with full intention of murdering everyone. It was a direct attack against them, whilst Jane, if she proved that the child was alive to him, didn't purposely set about harming anyone, besides Kenny really, and in the end, AJ, who he was most concerned about, would've been okay. I'd also like to point out that after seeing Rebecca's dead body, Kenny goes straight into his abuse against Arvo, so while Arvo actively had no actual role in her death, he still felt that it was his fault someone in their group had died. And the reason he continued to beat on Arvo even when they'd gotten to the house was because, once again, he blamed him for the death of yet another member in the group - Luke, who drowned crossing the river Arvo had claimed was safe. While It is a possibility that Kenny wouldn't have believed Jane if she admitted the truth, I do think that he, having developed the attachment he did with AJ, would have latched onto any opportunity he could to see that he was alive.
Yeah, to be honest, that's a fair point. Considering I happened to agree with Kenny most of the time, it was never much of an issue for me, but you're right that he was indeed fairly tyrannical when it came to the decision making of the group. Though to be fair, he was really the only person that ever made suggestions or had a continuing plan.
EDIT: Fixed something. Shit, I didn't think that this would've been so long...
Yeah same old same old with me. I haven't been on as much as i used to lately either!
Well i'd still say it wasn't deliberate in the sense that I don't think it was because he didn't care about what was going on. It was more of that he didn't think things through further about the consequences when he should have done. One would argue that after seeing Walter killed, Kenny got angry and wanted to get back at Carver but with Clem's determinant advice about not shooting anymore, he decided against it. At least it shows that he can actually listen at times when certain people get through to him.
How? Carver was after the cabin crew, not Kenny, Sarita and Walter. If the cabin gang were never there and Bonnie discovered the lodge and not noticed them there, i'd say they wouldn't have even bothered them as they were not their priority.
I said trying to help. And like it or not he WAS actually the only one trying to do something and that's a fact whether or not it wasn't helpful in your eyes or not is besides the point. He still tried and failed.
Well it doesn't matter if the discussion is about Kenny, i was involving Luke to make the point that he was nowhere to be seen and wasn't doing anything to help his friends and i feel the blame being solely on Kenny is a bit unfair as he and Luke and determinant Clem were the only ones free that could try and do something.
Actually i'm 99% certain he only came back for Rebecca who was most likely carrying his child and if necessary i think his actions proved he would have killed anyone in the group apart from her, and maybe not Carlos being a doctor. Ah well that's what i think anyway.
If Kenny is blamed here then yes definitely Mike and Sarita are to blame as well although Sarita less so as she'd only have one thing on her mind at that point. The thing is, another way to look at it is that Clem can look after herself as proven time and time again and i know that shouldn't be an excuse but still. Anyway it's a scene im not too fond of anyway.
But i'd argue that he was being kept busy with the Russian shooting at him and wouldn't even have been thinking about anything else apart from his concern that these guys could kill him. What about Mike and Bonnie? Do they not count in checking to see if Clem and AJ were ok? This part along with the awful scene at the lake is the most hated scene from episode 5 in my opinion because realistically after the first shot was fired at the end of episode 4, the positioning of all the characters would suggest they'd all have killed each other/been mowed down. They certainly wouldn't have been able to get behind in cover. Can't tell you enough how bad the writing was here.
But he did risk his life for her in In Harm's Way by taking the blame for the missing radio which resulted in the loss of his eye. We had all seen Carver had no problem in slapping Clem if she spoke out of place so we can assume he would have beat her senseless if Kenny hadn't done what he did. And i guess putting Clem and AJ first at Wellington could count as risking his life by making sure they are safe whilst he stays out in the dangerous world instead of keeping them with him.
Lol but dude what do you expect? Of course he was only going to stand there for the reason I stated above. He obviously knew that running back onto the ice to try and save her would have meant himself and Jane would have also fallen through the ice and as Jane was closest, she was able to get to her where the risk of ice breaking was less likely to happen than if Kenny had ran back on. That was common sense!
But Jane knew what she was letting herself in for, she knew he wouldn't have listened to her. She wouldn't have even had to give him chances if she hadn't caused the fight to occur in the first place.
Of course not but here's the thing, Jane tries to kill Kenny too. Even if it doesn't seem as bad as how Kenny was acting in the fight, point is she still tried to kill him too. She charged towards him outside and this was when Kenny was unarmed and slowly walking backwards. She can determinately respond to Clem saying "it's time to put this crusty piece of shit out of his misery" and that is after Clem's determinant plea to ask her to back off. She refuses to do so and that's when she charges at Kenny herself. She was in the wrong as much as he was. They were trying to kill each other.
She gave him chances to leave etc but why didn't she up and leave herself then? She easily could have with the knife she had as Kenny was unarmed. She could have asked Clem there and then who she chooses to stay with.
She had the chance many times but decided against it so i'd say it's unlikely she would have revealed his location IMO. Even if Kenny refused to believe her if she had told him, it goes back to the whole point that if she hadn't done what she did, none of this would have even happened in the first place. I want you to know that i do look at both sides and not just one side as a lot of people here always do when it's to do with the Kenny/Jane scene.
Anyway i always get carried away with this because i feel so strongly about this scene so i better end it here and now, hopefully it doesn't get out of hand
And i never said it excused what he did but im telling you as to why a big part of what he did was to do with grief and probably the trauma of losing his eye made him even more hardened than ever before. And yeah he makes mistakes and does so frequently but again not everyone can change. The thing with me as a person, i'm very loyal and will stand by my friends through thick and thin. I'd want to keep trying to help Kenny as best i can. That's just me anyway. I know that a lot of people don't have the patience or soft touch that i have for people. It's fine though
The screwed up thing about Jane is that she seemed to not be looking for a similar replacement for her sister so much as a different contrast.
The fact that she herself is essentially the same for Clementine makes this seem really foq-dop.
Has it really got to the point where Jane fans are blaming Kenny for loving a fcking baby??
To be fair, I don't think its *just Jane fans. We live in a time where "van with some candy" is a red flag, so of course some people are going to see a racist redneck holding a black baby and assume the worst.
Aw, come one. That's just not true. You may not be able to call her out for some things like causing the Russian attack and all, but you can express your distrust (or trust) for Jane in front of the group multiple times.
In Amd the Ruins, after Jane volunteers to go find a place for the baby and Bonnie fears that she migh leave, Clem can say three different things: she can say that they can trust her, she can remind Bonnie that she was the one that saved them or she can tell Bonnie and Luke that she is not comfortable with the baby coming, expressing distrust.
Later in the episode, when talking to Luke outside the observation deck, Luke asks about Jane. Clem can say, yet again, three different things: she can say that she trusts her, (I don't remember the neutral choice on this one) or she can outright say 'We can't trust her'. Yikes!
In No Going Back, at the campfire, Bonnie questions Jane's loyalty again, Clem is given the chance to give her two cents about the character yet again. She can say that they can trust her, she can remind them that she saved everyone or she can say that she is not sure about her, expressing distrust.
There are quite a few times where you can express how you feel about Jane, actually.
He was more concerned for the recently bitten Sarita at the time. If you kill the walker, Mike, Kenny, and Sarita take off with Clementine right behind them but a walker steps in her path and she gets separated from them because of it.
To be fair, Clementine took cover and Kenny was busy dealing with Vitali at the time. Considering Luke calls her over and admits that he didn't even see AJ out in the open, its safe to say that fighting off the Russians were the main focus at the time.
He was busy saving Arvo at the time with Mike following close behind. Clementine drowning is her own fault depending on if she goes after Luke despite his protests or if she tries to save him by breaking the ice when Bonnie does so instead. Jane and Bonnie were the closest at the time to save her.
Well, this is just self explanatory. Kinda hard to expect a redneck known for his anger issues to stop his mortal duel with a sociopathic survivalist just because the little girl he's fairly recently accepted as being strong enough to take care of herself asked him to.