Also the inconsistency with the Russian group - I somehow doubt the likelihood of them showing up the day after or several days after the Observation Deck fell. Let's hope that TWDS3 has better consistency!
You know what, I didn't even think about that! What the hell, writers?
Granted, if you didn't meet the Russians on that road in one scenario, where would you meet?
Hi Prink! Long time no speak!
Hey Dan, how are you? I haven't been on much sorry xD School Exams ;-;
At the lodge? You make it… more sound it was deliberate which certainly wasn't the case. I'd also argue the point that the cabin survivors brought their capture on themselves as none of it would have happened had they left sooner. Plus Kenny was the only person trying to help a group of people he owed nothing to do. Where was Luke at the time? And we were not to know that Carver wouldn't have killed anyone eventually if he hadn't got his way anyway. I'm not saying Kenny's actions were smart but be certainly didn't deliberately get people killed.
Primarily at the Lodge, yes. I know it wasn't deliberate - well, arguably it was since Clementine can attempt to stop Kenny. It was more so deliberate when Alvin is killed since Carver did state that he'd keep killing people if Kenny didn't stop shooting. That's a bit of a moot point - … [view original content]
but, in my belief, someone who seems to have such difficulty staying calm and consider other possibilities outside of his opinion most of the time, isn't what would be qualified as stable. He's also quite violent, depressed, a possibly insomniac, slightly paranoid, and probably some other things I've forgotten.
I'll respect your beliefs but I can't say I agree with them - I do think there's a good possibility that Kenny does have mental issues (although debatabley everyone may have one) but if he has and he isn't stable that only emphasizes how dangerous he is and he is capable of unintentionally harming the people he loves - whilst I think Kenny should be sympathized or empathized with, it is still clear that he is a dangerous individual.
he mentions that some guy had grabbed Duck at a gas station and that he was "on the fucker in about two seconds", which knowing Kenny, probably meant he physically dealt with him, this being before he knew of the apocalypse.
That quote provides little context to how he actually dealt with the situation, besides, this was his son - it can be argued that paternal instincts can cause a father to become aggressive if they believe their child is snagged by a stranger and what it meant is entirely up to interpretation. Whilst we can analyse his current character pre-loss of Duck and Katjaa to determine how he could've acted, we can't prove it.
but it does demonstrate that, by instinct, Kenny usually reacts with anger when in a stressful situation.
I personally wouldn't assume that Kenny usually acted with anger considering we only have one instance to analyse with little context behind it. Even then, the situation with Duck could've been a special case - I'm not sure how many individuals, calm or aggressive, would just calmly ask a complete stranger to let go of their child.
Also in S1, his argument with Larry, where he quickly decides beating him would be the best option, and later on, the leadership struggle he has with Lilly could indicate that prior to the events of the Walking Dead, he did have temper issues, as I highly doubt these traits just appeared from nowhere.
He does so in response to Larry wanting to throw Duck out of the Pharmacy or smash his head in. Again, I doubt he reacted that angrily in stressful situations before the apocalypse unless people constantly tried to get his son killed. May I ask which exact interactions with Lilly over leadership indicated this? I don't think his trait appeared out of nowhere but you don't need to be easily angered to feel angry or be aggressive - even if it's just on occasion - Anger is, after all, one of the basic human emotions and the apocalypse has evidently proven that people can change for the better or for the worse when they think their life is over.
When put into comparison to how everyone else within the group reacted to the Russian situation and the added bonus of Kenny assaulting Arvo afterwards in sheer anger, I'd say Jane would've been able to figure out that, clearly, the fella's prone to rage unless she's blind or something.
Then she'd be making assumptions of Kenny - she doesn't actually know he has anger problems - considering their lives were on the line not that long ago and considering that Arvo was apart of the Russian group, it's not exactly surprising that someone would be angry. It could even be possible that Jane thought that Kenny had a bully-like mentality - thinking that it's alright to hurt others if they do something wrong to you - considering how she states her displeasure towards Kenny beating Carver and Kenny bullying Arvo - it's possible that she perceived Kenny to be a bully, not one prone to anger but one that enjoyed lashing their anger out on others - if this was the case, it makes her plan at the end of Episode 5 a bit more understandable.
And in the car during the show storm, Jane, herself, even calls him "a bomb waiting to go off", which again, would suggest she knows he has issues controlling his hot-tempered nature and later when Kenny exists the vehicle, she determinately says that "everything makes him mad".
Those lines do show that she's presently evident of Kenny's anger and that she's aware of how he is a potential threat to her and the group.
My interpretation of Jane's plan is quite different from yours, actually. I didn't see it as her simply trying to test Kenny, to determine whether he was safe to be around the group, but it was a plan to specifically target something she knew Kenny deeply cared for, so that he would, as she expected, react in a murderous way. She even admits it herself when Kenny says that he'll kill her during the fight, stating "I knew you would".
That does emphasize that Jane's plan worked - whilst I believe it was for a different intention - a test - I think it evidently showed the lengths Kenny would go to with his anger.
The only person who could've put the fight to a quick halt, really, was her by telling the truth that AJ was alive, but she didn't want that. She wanted Kenny to attempt to kill her, so that it would give Clem reason enough to leave with only her and ditch him. Now, I get that most likely Jane did truly believe Kenny was a danger to Clem and that he was a liability, so her intentions were indeed good, but for me, how she callously targeted Kenny using AJ, was all a bit ruthless and something I wouldn't be able to support.
Fair enough, I don't support Jane's last action in attempting to deceive Kenny either but overall I personally think that Jane is a better person - perhaps not in morality but in the fact that she shows more progression and a sense of humanity.
Yeah, I reckon he would've. AJ's presence alone would've calmed him down and he'd no longer be bothered with killing Jane, as he'd know that she didn't truly end the child's life.
Welp, my opinion clearly won't change and neither will yours so I guess there's not much point in debating it. But AJ wasn't present during the fight - his cries are only heard after either Kenny or Jane die and at least a minute or two after.
His desire to kill her only stemmed from the fact he genuinely believed she'd been responsible for AJ's demise, so I'd doubt that he'd run the risk of putting himself once again at the verge of death after realising AJ was living, especially when he had done so much already for the baby, simply so he could murder Jane, who would obviously fight back.
I don't know about that, he was already hostile towards her throughout Episode 5 - treating her like a child, practically ignoring her apology, calling her a bad influence. Taking into consideration the fact that he only assumed AJ died because of Jane, I think I would be more supportive of Kenny's actions towards her had she actually stated that she got AJ killed, Kenny hadn't let Jane give an explanation nor did he try looking for AJ himself. One could argue that even if AJ was alive, Kenny would kill Jane - seeing her as a deceptive liar and a danger to AJ and Clementine.
And he'd also be too focused on ensuring that the kid was alright, anyway, and once that was settled, he'd have ditched Jane there, most likely after encouraging Clem to go with him.
Hopefully if that were an ending, AJ wouldn't be with Kenny regardless - since I think that out of everyone, Clementine is best suited to care for AJ - seeing as she can keep him alive on her own for at least 9 days without having to rely on trusting Jane or Kenny.
whilst Jane, if she proved that the child was alive to him, didn't purposely set about harming anyone,
How could Jane have proven to Kenny that AJ was alive without him calling her 'bluff', especially considering that Kenny was constantly attacking her.
nd the reason he continued to beat on Arvo even when they'd gotten to the house was because, once again, he blamed him for the death of yet another member in the group - Luke, who drowned crossing the river Arvo had claimed was safe.
These chose to believe in Arvo and chose to cross the middle of the river rather than walking around it, ultimately that was the group's own fault. Plus, for Arvo and his group, the river was likely safe if they've routinely crossed it - meaning that the ice cracking was always a possible occurrence regardless. In the end, Luke died because Bonnie or Clementine went too close and caused the ice to break - which caused Luke to drown. To me, it felt like Kenny was taking his anger out on Arvo just because there was someone 'beneath' him, a way to make himself feel superior or he could've been taking out his anger on Arvo - in my opinion that isn't just, especially when none of the other group members blamed Arvo - in fact, Bonnie can blame herself for what happened to Luke and what almost happened to Clementine.
While It is a possibility that Kenny wouldn't have believed Jane if she admitted the truth, I do think that he, having developed the attachment he did with AJ, would have latched onto any opportunity he could to see that he was alive.
I still don't think so - considering that he never let Jane give an explanation - wouldn't he want to know what exactly happened to determine the probability of whether he might be alive or not?
Though to be fair, he was really the only person that ever made suggestions or had a continuing plan.
Luke had the radio plan, Jane had the use Walker guts to escape and manipulate Troy plan, Bonnie extended the escape plan, Mike was the one who suggested going to Parker's Run (was it called that? I've forgotten, sorry xD), ironically enough it was Jane who planned on finding and getting Luke and determinantly Nick and Sarah to safety, it was Jane who suggested to open the Observation Deck, it was Bonnie/Mike that suggested to look in the Museum - Bonnie suggesting giving the jacket to Rebecca and Clementine finds the water etc. I think he would've been a better leader if he directed the group towards the town if I'm honest xD
Nor did I ever imply you did. I agree, it's important to understand why people act the way they do but if people act dangerously, they shoul… mored be treated with caution and compassion - at least in my personal perspective. I don't know how 'obvious' his mental issues are considering we only assume he has one - as I don't believe this has ever been confirmed, although that could all be due to writing. I'm not saying I don't think Kenny isn't facing a mental issue but since this is the universe where characters who are shot are miraculously fine after a couple of hours, it can be difficult to realize.
I agree with that. Kenny is dangerous and can be an unstable person to be around, there's no disputing that and he does tend to jump to conclusions, causing disastrous results, despite his well-meaning intentions. And yes, his mental state really is all up for interpretation as Telltale have never came out and confirmed that he's suffering fr… [view original content]
Granted, if you didn't meet the Russians on that road in one scenario, where would you meet?
Perhaps at the town? Would've made the final decision of Episode 4 have an effect apart from determining who blames Clementine for Rebecca's physical state.
Also the inconsistency with the Russian group - I somehow doubt the likelihood of them showing up the day after or several days after the Ob… moreservation Deck fell. Let's hope that TWDS3 has better consistency!
You know what, I didn't even think about that! What the hell, writers?
Granted, if you didn't meet the Russians on that road in one scenario, where would you meet?
Yeah same old same old with me. I haven't been on as much as i used to lately either!
I'm sure we'll all be on quite often once TWDGS3 is around the corner!
It was more of that he didn't think things through further about the consequences when he should have done. One would argue that after seeing Walter killed, Kenny got angry and wanted to get back at Carver but with Clem's determinant advice about not shooting anymore, he decided against it. At least it shows that he can actually listen at times when certain people get through to him.
Yeah but that only proves Alvin's death was his fault. I can understand Kenny's emotional reaction to the situation but ultimately, he is responsible for his actions. It would've been nice to see more of Kenny listening to Clementine - specifically at the beginning of Episode 2, quite a bit of a quick contrast but understandable I suppose.
How? Carver was after the cabin crew, not Kenny, Sarita and Walter. If the cabin gang were never there and Bonnie discovered the lodge and not noticed them there, i'd say they wouldn't have even bothered them as they were not their priority.
Wouldn't stop him from killing/capturing them and then looting all their belongings would it? I doubt Jane wanted to be recruited into Carver's community so I have a feeling that Carver forces people into their community as practically slaves until they work their way up the power ladder. Depends on whether Bonnie would've told Carver about the Ski Lodge or not and also whether Carver would head towards it or not - there are many probabilities to consider.
And like it or not he WAS actually the only one trying to do something and that's a fact whether or not it wasn't helpful in your eyes or not is besides the point. He still tried and failed.
Choosing to surrender in order to ensure someone lives is doing something - like it or not. It's not that it wasn't helpful in my eyes it was that it evidently wasn't helpful - the fact is that Kenny got people killed - sure, he had his intentions but the consequences of his actions caused Walter and determinantly Alvin to die and he knew the consequences he would face after Walter was shot - he knew that Carver would keep killing people until he surrendered and he only stops when it's someone he cares about.
Well it doesn't matter if the discussion is about Kenny, i was involving Luke to make the point that he was nowhere to be seen and wasn't doing anything to help his friends and i feel the blame being solely on Kenny is a bit unfair as he and Luke and determinant Clem were the only ones free that could try and do something.
What could they have done to not make matters worse or escalate the situation? Even if Luke was present at the time what would he have been able to do? Of course, Luke is worthy of blame for doing nothing - even thought he fled so he could later attempt to save the group - arguably it was the smartest thing to do, it didn't get anyone hurt and it gave the group a chance to escape later on - although it ultimately failed just as Kenny's plan did.
Actually i'm 99% certain he only came back for Rebecca who was most likely carrying his child and if necessary i think his actions proved he would have killed anyone in the group apart from her, and maybe not Carlos being a doctor. Ah well that's what i think anyway.
I'm afraid I can't say I agree - I'd at least think he'd come for Carlos as well considering he was a Doctor, possibly the only Doctor at Howe's that could look after Rebecca. Considering he also has a community that is still under construction, I wouldn't be surprised if he was also looking for extra builders. If he truly only cared about Rebecca, he could've easily removed the risk of any threat by killing everyone other than her - which would leave Kenny, determinantly Clementine and Luke left apart from Rebecca. Perhaps Sarah would also be alive if he wanted Carlos. I'm 85% certain that no one knows his complete intentions.
The thing is, another way to look at it is that Clem can look after herself as proven time and time again and i know that shouldn't be an excuse but still. Anyway it's a scene im not too fond of anyway.
Yeah, not much of an excuse in my opinion considering how she is still treated like a child later on but still a pretty fair point. Neither am I if I'm honest, I was hoping that Sarita wouldn't have died regardless because of it
But i'd argue that he was being kept busy with the Russian shooting at him and wouldn't even have been thinking about anything else apart from his concern that these guys could kill him. What about Mike and Bonnie? Do they not count in checking to see if Clem and AJ were ok? This part along with the awful scene at the lake is the most hated scene from episode 5 in my opinion because realistically after the first shot was fired at the end of episode 4, the positioning of all the characters would suggest they'd all have killed each other/been mowed down. They certainly wouldn't have been able to get behind in cover. Can't tell you enough how bad the writing was here.
And this disproves the OP's statement that Kenny would do anything for Clementine - that was the main point of my reply. Of course they count, everyone who was present and wasn't Clementine or AJ barely did anything to try and save either - except for Luke who determinantly goes to save AJ. I agree with the oddity of the scene, there are so many questions - unless everyone suddenly became Stormtroopers, I'm not sure how most people survived the fight.
But he did risk his life for her in In Harm's Way by taking the blame for the missing radio which resulted in the loss of his eye. We had all seen Carver had no problem in slapping Clem if she spoke out of place so we can assume he would have beat her senseless if Kenny hadn't done what he did. And i guess putting Clem and AJ first at Wellington could count as risking his life by making sure they are safe whilst he stays out in the dangerous world instead of keeping them with him.
And I applaud Kenny for that but, again, my comment was to disprove the OP's statement that Kenny would do anything for Clementine. I wouldn't count the latter considering that Kenny doesn't take risks for himself, he takes risks for Clementine and AJ by either letting them stay with him in the snow or letting them leave into a community they know nothing about. Regardless of where Clementine chooses to go, Kenny's fate when they reach Wellington is always the same.
Lol but dude what do you expect? Of course he was only going to stand there for the reason I stated above. He obviously knew that running back onto the ice to try and save her would have meant himself and Jane would have also fallen through the ice and as Jane was closest, she was able to get to her where the risk of ice breaking was less likely to happen than if Kenny had ran back on. That was common sense!
I know it was, again, I was disproving the OP's statement - as I've already stated in my previous reply...
But Jane knew what she was letting herself in for, she knew he wouldn't have listened to her. She wouldn't have even had to give him chances if she hadn't caused the fight to occur in the first place.
Or perhaps she was hoping there was a chance that he would? I doubt that she wouldn't have at least considered that possibility. But Kenny directly caused the fight - it was his lunge at Jane after she sheathed her knife that began the actual fight. Yes, Jane manipulated Kenny by implying that AJ was dead but he didn't even let her give an explanation.
Of course not but here's the thing, Jane tries to kill Kenny too. She charged towards him outside and this was when Kenny was unarmed and slowly walking backwards. She can determinately respond to Clem saying "it's time to put this crusty piece of shit out of his misery" and that is after Clem's determinant plea to ask her to back off. She refuses to do so and that's when she charges at Kenny herself. She was in the wrong as much as he was. They were trying to kill each other.
Past a certain point, yes. Kenny began the fight with the intent to kill her. That doesn't signify that Kenny was done with the fight but yes, Jane did get mad enough to go berserk on him at that point. I agree, both were in the wrong - I don't agree with Jane's plans and I dislike how Kenny reacted, whilst I can understand the intentions behind the actions of both.
She gave him chances to leave etc but why didn't she up and leave herself then? She easily could have with the knife she had as Kenny was unarmed. She could have asked Clem there and then who she chooses to stay with.
Kenny was attacking her... do you truly believe he would've just let her leave? Kenny, after all, does still continue to attack her even when her knife is unsheathed. She could've yes, but was her focus set on Kenny, whether it was to kill him or to ensure he didn't try to sneak up on her? Likely.
She had the chance many times but decided against it so i'd say it's unlikely she would have revealed his location IMO. Even if Kenny refused to believe her if she had told him, it goes back to the whole point that if she hadn't done what she did, none of this would have even happened in the first place. I want you to know that i do look at both sides and not just one side as a lot of people here always do when it's to do with the Kenny/Jane scene.
I think she was more so preoccupied, she could've easily gotten killed if she gave Kenny the vantage point. In the end, one could think that Jane choosing not to reveal AJ's location and status at that point in time meant she truly wanted to show Clementine how far Kenny would go, even letting herself get killed in the process - after all she did have the chances to, even when she was being overpowered by Kenny. Sometimes I wonder what peoples' reactions would've been like if Jane had thought AJ was dead and left him in the car instead of actually trying to manipulate Kenny xD I think Jane's actions were the culmination of Kenny's. Whilst, yes, Jane did devise the plan to test Kenny's anger, it was Kenny and his actions towards the group that lead her to feel as though she needed to test him. Does this justify it? Absolutely not. But did it have some sense to it? I think so. Kenny was the primary conflict within the group after the Gun Fight - it was the way he treated everyone, and in particular, Jane, that caused the group to fall apart and Jane to lose faith in Kenny - as she had some faith in him in the beginning of the episode.
I look at both sides as well, it's not as fun if a debate is linear
Fair enough, I'd say I get carried away too - although not entirely this scene just in debates in general - I'll admit that I may enjoy them, I like to see how other's think and overall, it improves my debating and literary skills. So long as you remember that this is all fun and games there shouldn't be anything to worry about ^-^ after all the only opinions that should matter to each of us are our own!
Hey Dan, how are you? I haven't been on much sorry xD School Exams ;-;
Yeah same old same old with me. I haven't been on as much as … morei used to lately either!
Primarily at the Lodge, yes. I know it wasn't deliberate - well, arguably it was since Clementine can attempt to stop Kenny. It was more so deliberate when Alvin is killed since Carver did state that he'd keep killing people if Kenny didn't stop shooting
Well i'd still say it wasn't deliberate in the sense that I don't think it was because he didn't care about what was going on. It was more of that he didn't think things through further about the consequences when he should have done. One would argue that after seeing Walter killed, Kenny got angry and wanted to get back at Carver but with Clem's determinant advice about not shooting anymore, he decided against it. At least it shows that he can actually listen at times when certain people get through to him.
on… [view original content]
He was more concerned for the recently bitten Sarita at the time. If you kill the walker, Mike, Kenny, and Sarita take off with Clementine right behind them but a walker steps in her path and she gets separated from them because of it.
Yeah, I can understand that but in the scenario where she calls out to Kenny, I can't help but feel it's a form of abandonment, perhaps not intentional.
To be fair, Clementine took cover and Kenny was busy dealing with Vitali at the time. Considering Luke calls her over and admits that he didn't even see AJ out in the open, its safe to say that fighting off the Russians were the main focus at the time.
Oh, I actually thought that she may have gotten shot or something xD Yeah that's understandable but I can't help but feel that at least someone else, other than Clementine, would've noticed AJ crying on the ground - a few feet from Luke and Kenny - and Mike and Bonnie practically walked past him too. Did anyone even notice that AJ wasn't in Rebecca's arms anymore?
He was busy saving Arvo at the time with Mike following close behind. Clementine drowning is her own fault depending on if she goes after Luke despite his protests or if she tries to save him by breaking the ice when Bonnie does so instead. Jane and Bonnie were the closest at the time to save her.
I'm not sure if I'd called capturing him and keeping him as prisoner the same as saving xD and yes I can understand that Jane and Bonnie were closer but that paragraph was entirely written to disprove the OP's statement that Kenny would do anything for Clementine.
Well, this is just self explanatory. Kinda hard to expect a redneck known for his anger issues to stop his mortal duel with a sociopathic survivalist just because the little girl he's fairly recently accepted as being strong enough to take care of herself asked him to.
That's a bit derogatory. I was hoping, however, that Kenny cared enough about Clementine to have listened to her - I feel like the fight highlights how Kenny cared more about AJ than Clementine at the time. Yeah, AJ was possibly dead but you'd think a family man like Kenny would prioritize protecting Clementine, the family he has left, over taking revenge on Jane - as he doesn't even have proof she did anything to him.
he abandoned her in the middle of a walker horde
He was more concerned for the recently bitten Sarita at the time. If you kill the w… morealker, Mike, Kenny, and Sarita take off with Clementine right behind them but a walker steps in her path and she gets separated from them because of it.
he didn't try to save Clementine during the gunfight - she was just left on the ground with AJ near her,
To be fair, Clementine took cover and Kenny was busy dealing with Vitali at the time. Considering Luke calls her over and admits that he didn't even see AJ out in the open, its safe to say that fighting off the Russians were the main focus at the time.
Kenny didn't do anything to try and save Clementine when she was drowning
He was busy saving Arvo at the time with Mike following close behind. Clementine drowning is her own fault depending on if she goes after Luke despite his protests or if she tries to save him by breaking… [view original content]
It would've been nice to see more of Kenny listening to Clementine - specifically at the beginning of Episode 2, quite a bit of a quick contrast but understandable I suppose.
Kenny wasn't around until after the halfway point of the episode.
Wouldn't stop him from killing/capturing them and then looting all their belongings would it?
You know, its really sad that you can say something like this and I can totally believe it.
If he truly only cared about Rebecca, he could've easily removed the risk of any threat by killing everyone other than her - which would leave Kenny, determinantly Clementine and Luke left apart from Rebecca.
I would like to think Carver's not that stupid. He clearly was a control freak, so having as many prisoners to bring home would have been a goal. Also, I see him keeping Sarah and determinantly Clementine for a multitude of reasons, the upmost being a bargaining chip against Carlos.
Yeah same old same old with me. I haven't been on as much as i used to lately either!
I'm sure we'll all be on quite often once TWDG… moreS3 is around the corner!
It was more of that he didn't think things through further about the consequences when he should have done. One would argue that after seeing Walter killed, Kenny got angry and wanted to get back at Carver but with Clem's determinant advice about not shooting anymore, he decided against it. At least it shows that he can actually listen at times when certain people get through to him.
Yeah but that only proves Alvin's death was his fault. I can understand Kenny's emotional reaction to the situation but ultimately, he is responsible for his actions. It would've been nice to see more of Kenny listening to Clementine - specifically at the beginning of Episode 2, quite a bit of a quick contrast but understandable I suppose.
How? Carver was after the cabin crew, not … [view original content]
Granted, if you didn't meet the Russians on that road in one scenario, where would you meet?
Perhaps at the town? Would've made the … morefinal decision of Episode 4 have an effect apart from determining who blames Clementine for Rebecca's physical state.
Did anyone even notice that AJ wasn't in Rebecca's arms anymore?
Well, let's see--Nick and Sarita were dead/turned/deader, Sarah was most likely laid out, Rebecca had been put down, Bonnie was doing her pope impression, Mike got hit, Luke was taking cover, Buricko was crawling backwards and shooting a shotgun with one arm, Vitali was being a psycho, Kenny was being hilarious, and Clementine was siteseeing on the cobblestone-- that'd be one huge NOPE.
I'm not sure if I'd called capturing him and keeping him as prisoner the same as saving
True, though he did lampshade not letting Arvo drown himself. Just being technical.
...entirely written to disprove the OP's statement that Kenny would do anything for Clementine.
Oh, there's a word for that--its called being petty.
He was more concerned for the recently bitten Sarita at the time. If you kill the walker, Mike, Kenny, and Sarita take off with Clementine r… moreight behind them but a walker steps in her path and she gets separated from them because of it.
Yeah, I can understand that but in the scenario where she calls out to Kenny, I can't help but feel it's a form of abandonment, perhaps not intentional.
To be fair, Clementine took cover and Kenny was busy dealing with Vitali at the time. Considering Luke calls her over and admits that he didn't even see AJ out in the open, its safe to say that fighting off the Russians were the main focus at the time.
Oh, I actually thought that she may have gotten shot or something xD Yeah that's understandable but I can't help but feel that at least someone else, other than Clementine, would've noticed AJ crying on the ground - a few feet from Luke and Kenny - and Mike and Bonnie practically walked past… [view original content]
To be honest Sleep, neither could Kenny fans express how they didn't like Jane.
In fact, we couldn't express any opinions about Jane.… more
Aw, come one. That's just not true. You may not be able to call her out for some things like causing the Russian attack and all, but you can express your distrust (or trust) for Jane in front of the group multiple times.
In Amd the Ruins, after Jane volunteers to go find a place for the baby and Bonnie fears that she migh leave, Clem can say three different things: she can say that they can trust her, she can remind Bonnie that she was the one that saved them or she can tell Bonnie and Luke that she is not comfortable with the baby coming, expressing distrust.
Later in the episode, when talking to Luke outside the observation deck, Luke asks about Jane. Clem can say, yet again, three different things: she can say that she trusts her, (I don't remember the neutral choice on this one) or she … [view original content]
Try this on for size: they were BOTH in the wrong. Kenny's becoming a dictator was not justifiable by the deaths of his family and girlfrien… mored. Understandable maybe, not justifiable. He showed time and again he had no concern for anyone but himself and (arguably) Clementine and AJ. The rest of the group didn't even get a vote as far as he was concerned. His violence toward Mike, blaming Clementine for Sarita's death, abusing Arvo, hitting Clem, accident or not, stubbornness over the pickup, and yes, attacking Jane. Jane's only mistake was in not letting Clementine come to her own conclusion about Kenny. Jane had no right to force her hand by instigating a brutal fight. She instigated it by knowing he makes snap judgments and overreacts, often with hostility, yet deciding to be deceptive. If Arvo, an injured teen boy, wasn't off limits, why would she think Kenny was above taking out his frustration on a woman by that point? She knew the risk sh… [view original content]
Oh that discussion. That was mostly a joke. I wanted to see your reaction if I painted Jane's plan in white light. Just so you know the plan was indeed stupid involving risking AJ's life. But it was a type of test what Kenny would do if someone got his loved one killed accidentally or otherwise. And I'm afraid that he failed.
I'll respect your beliefs but I can't say I agree with them - I do think there's a good possibility that Kenny does have mental issues (although debatabley everyone may have one) but if he has and he isn't stable that only emphasizes how dangerous he is and he is capable of unintentionally harming the people he loves - whilst I think Kenny should be sympathized or empathized with, it is still clear that he is a dangerous individual.
Yes, Kenny is dangerous and there are many instances where he doesn't seem to be able to control his anger, but in my opinion, there are certain people, whom he develops an attachment with, that he wouldn't be able to bring himself to harm. Kenny's will to live is often stemmed from his desire to protect someone, which was why he became more unstable after Duck and Kat's deaths. Once Clem and later AJ came into focus with his life, they once again, gave him his purpose, so if he did harm them, it'd pretty much lead the way for the end of Ken's own life, most likely, though suicide. So, no, I don't believe he'd be able to harm them because without them, he'd have nothing and thus, would be bringing himself more pain.
That quote provides little context to how he actually dealt with the situation, besides, this was his son - it can be argued that paternal instincts can cause a father to become aggressive if they believe their child is snagged by a stranger and what it meant is entirely up to interpretation. Whilst we can analyse his current character pre-loss of Duck and Katjaa to determine how he could've acted, we can't prove it.
Yes, you're correct and I'll agree to disagree with regards to this section of the debate, as it really simply depends on one's own interpretation on how they perceive Kenny to be before the events of the Walking Dead. I, personally, believe that most likely he'd be an individual with some temper issues, of course nothing compared to how bad they become later on, as I don't think certain aspects in a person's character appear from nowhere, but you clearly look at it in another manner, which isn't necessarily wrong or right because as you said, there's no way to prove it.
May I ask which exact interactions with Lilly over leadership indicated this?
I was referring really to their constant fighting as a whole, as it only took Kenny a few months to already find himself constantly arguing with another individual, despite the annoyance it caused everyone, and with no real hints of a common ground.
Then she'd be making assumptions of Kenny - she doesn't actually know he has anger problems - considering their lives were on the line not that long ago and considering that Arvo was apart of the Russian group, it's not exactly surprising that someone would be angry. It could even be possible that Jane thought that Kenny had a bully-like mentality - thinking that it's alright to hurt others if they do something wrong to you - considering how she states her displeasure towards Kenny beating Carver and Kenny bullying Arvo - it's possible that she perceived Kenny to be a bully, not one prone to anger but one that enjoyed lashing their anger out on others - if this was the case, it makes her plan at the end of Episode 5 a bit more understandable.
Well, yes, in my view, Jane had made the assumption Kenny was a dangerous individual, which to an extent, he is and that he could have harmed Clem or AJ, despite having little proof to back up that point. Now, what type of mentally Jane had of Kenny as a whole, I truly couldn't say, but I do believe she knew his anger was a heavy facture he couldn't always control, but again, this is mostly up for the interpretation one has of what Jane believes.
That does emphasize that Jane's plan worked - whilst I believe it was for a different intention - a test - I think it evidently showed the lengths Kenny would go to with his anger.
Oh, yeah, I'll admit, her plan definitely succeeds in what she had intended, showing the extent of what Kenny's rage could eventually become when something he cares for is at threat- it turns vicious. It really just lies down on how loyal or how much trust Clem has in either Kenny or Jane in the end of it all, though.
I don't know about that, he was already hostile towards her throughout Episode 5 - treating her like a child, practically ignoring her apology, calling her a bad influence. Taking into consideration the fact that he only assumed AJ died because of Jane, I think I would be more supportive of Kenny's actions towards her had she actually stated that she got AJ killed, Kenny hadn't let Jane give an explanation nor did he try looking for AJ himself. One could argue that even if AJ was alive, Kenny would kill Jane - seeing her as a deceptive liar and a danger to AJ and Clementine.
While I do think that Kenny never actually liked Jane to begin with, I think the main reason for how he treated her was due to the fact, like most members in the group, he wasn't sure what to think of her and whether she could be trusted. Especially when she technically caused the Russians to come after them and had fled previous. There's also the facture that later on, during the fight Kenny and her had in the car, Jane brought up his family, causing him to outright dislike her and automatically think the worse of her afterwards.
I think that out of everyone, Clementine is best suited to care for AJ - seeing as she can keep him alive on her own for at least 9 days without having to rely on trusting Jane or Kenny.
That I can genuinely agree with. Clementine, despite her age, is probably the most grounded, and in touch with her morals, making her the best candidate to care for the child.
To me, it felt like Kenny was taking his anger out on Arvo just because there was someone 'beneath' him, a way to make himself feel superior or he could've been taking out his anger on Arvo - in my opinion that isn't just, especially when none of the other group members blamed Arvo - in fact, Bonnie can blame herself for what happened to Luke and what almost happened to Clementine.
While that is certainty a possibility, I'd have to disagree. I think, with Kenny's character, he always has to find someone or something, to blame for how things went to shit, and in this case, it was Arvo. Arvo was, in Kenny's mind, the cause for Rebbeca's and Luke's deaths, and Clem falling into the river, even though most likely, it wasn't. I don't believe he wants to feel superior, though I won't deny that he's a fan of being in the leadership position, just that he needs something to blame.
I still don't think so - considering that he never let Jane give an explanation - wouldn't he want to know what exactly happened to determine the probability of whether he might be alive or not?
Well, she gave the indication that the child was dead and when he went out to search for AJ, seeing him nowhere, Kenny's lack of trust in Jane made him jump to the conclusion that she was responsible. All he needed was the belief that AJ was dead, which Jane could've tried to put a stop to by confirming the opposite. It has to be reminded that Kenny wasn't really thinking things through.
Luke had the radio plan, Jane had the use Walker guts to escape and manipulate Troy plan, Bonnie extended the escape plan, Mike was the one who suggested going to Parker's Run (was it called that? I've forgotten, sorry xD), ironically enough it was Jane who planned on finding and getting Luke and determinantly Nick and Sarah to safety, it was Jane who suggested to open the Observation Deck, it was Bonnie/Mike that suggested to look in the Museum - Bonnie suggesting giving the jacket to Rebecca and Clementine finds the water etc. I think he would've been a better leader if he directed the group towards the town if I'm honest xD
I apologize, I should have made that point clearer. You're right that others made suggestions, but what I meant was that Kenny, really, was the only one who seemed to have a long term plan- find Wellington. Jane didn't really suggest going to Howe's until the last episode.
Anyway, good discussion, though if I missed any of your points, it was because I tried to make that shorter, which hopefully it is.
but, in my belief, someone who seems to have such difficulty staying calm and consider other possibilities outside of his opinion most of th… moree time, isn't what would be qualified as stable. He's also quite violent, depressed, a possibly insomniac, slightly paranoid, and probably some other things I've forgotten.
I'll respect your beliefs but I can't say I agree with them - I do think there's a good possibility that Kenny does have mental issues (although debatabley everyone may have one) but if he has and he isn't stable that only emphasizes how dangerous he is and he is capable of unintentionally harming the people he loves - whilst I think Kenny should be sympathized or empathized with, it is still clear that he is a dangerous individual.
he mentions that some guy had grabbed Duck at a gas station and that he was "on the fucker in about two seconds", which knowing Kenny, probably meant he physically dealt with him, this being b… [view original content]
Kenny screwups? What? Uhhh, sorry, but how does Kenny screwups relate with anything I said?
How does Kenny relate with anything I say?
Who even mentioned Kenny?
HURRRRRRRR * explodes *
But seriously, apart from Bonnie, Carlos and Sarah, you can tell anyone else in Season 2 that you fucking hate them and that you'd like them to die that they'll still love you. Kenny, Jane, Rebecca, Alvin, Nick, Mike... EVERYONE.
I shot him because he seemed to be a liability. Once you've gone crazy in a zombie apocalypse, I doubt there' a lot of returning from that. Jane was reckless, too, which is why I left her too.
I firmly believe that one should never surrender to a hostage situation, ever, as you don't have a way of knowing what future held, not only for the others who are already hostage, but for yourself. Below is how I think characters acted without knowing what Carver would do with them were they to be taken as prisoners.
What Luke did was ideal, and the smartest—running away. It ensures that you are safe and it doesn't put others in danger any more than they are.
What Kenny did was the second best path—attacking. Though it puts other at danger, you give them a slim chance of being saved, and you are safe yourself. Those who had been taken hostage already had an uncertain future.
What Alvin proposed is the worst that you can do—you have given a person who you don't know the ability to do anything with you, be it manslaughter, torture, rape, or worse.
Yeah same old same old with me. I haven't been on as much as i used to lately either!
I'm sure we'll all be on quite often once TWDG… moreS3 is around the corner!
It was more of that he didn't think things through further about the consequences when he should have done. One would argue that after seeing Walter killed, Kenny got angry and wanted to get back at Carver but with Clem's determinant advice about not shooting anymore, he decided against it. At least it shows that he can actually listen at times when certain people get through to him.
Yeah but that only proves Alvin's death was his fault. I can understand Kenny's emotional reaction to the situation but ultimately, he is responsible for his actions. It would've been nice to see more of Kenny listening to Clementine - specifically at the beginning of Episode 2, quite a bit of a quick contrast but understandable I suppose.
How? Carver was after the cabin crew, not … [view original content]
So this issue is still floating around the TWD section of this site. I thought we would have gotten past that Kenny vs. Jane deal.
Quite honestly, I really don't even think it matters all that much anymore what a person decides to do in the game, because all of the choices have predetermined outcomes.
Sorry if I'm being a buzz-kill right now, but this is an old issue, and quite frankly it is a meaningless issue.
New people are joining the discussion in ways that it has not been presented before! It is not discussing who was right and who was wrong—sometimes it is Jane's plan, others is Kenny's motivation, or why picking one over the other would be the most reasonable or human choice.
You don't have to join the discussion if you consider it to be monotone, but quite honestly, you have broken the fourth wall with your comment.
So this issue is still floating around the TWD section of this site. I thought we would have gotten past that Kenny vs. Jane deal.
Quite … morehonestly, I really don't even think it matters all that much anymore what a person decides to do in the game, because all of the choices have predetermined outcomes.
Sorry if I'm being a buzz-kill right now, but this is an old issue, and quite frankly it is a meaningless issue.
If people are talking about a certain topic in the place they should be discussing it, without harming or bothering anyone else, why do you feel the need to come here and say that we all shouldn't be talking about it? Believe it or not, these forums are used for discussing Telltale Games, that's what people are doing. If you're not interested in this topic, do yourself and everyone else a favour and don't come here and try to dictate that what people are discussing is 'meaningless'.
So this issue is still floating around the TWD section of this site. I thought we would have gotten past that Kenny vs. Jane deal.
Quite … morehonestly, I really don't even think it matters all that much anymore what a person decides to do in the game, because all of the choices have predetermined outcomes.
Sorry if I'm being a buzz-kill right now, but this is an old issue, and quite frankly it is a meaningless issue.
I was under the impression that Lee accidentally killed the Man that his wife was sleeping with, during a fistfight. Not that he killed his wife.
There are multiple options to tell people that 'i don't know where my ex-wife is' at Hershel's farm and even later.
I think, with regards to Kenny and why people might feel that Clem isn't safe with him; it's less that he killed/is capable of killing, and more that he is irrational and unpredictable and doesn't listen to anyone else's opinion. Which makes him dangerous to be around.
Whereas Lee, in comparison, was pretty rational and always seemed cognizant of Clem's feelings on things (as well as others) and actually chose to take them into account, ie: whether or not you rob the station wagon. Just my opinion of course
Should Jane have just sat there with her sister waiting to die as well?
You can't force people to want to live, just as Jane explained to Clem when she told her the story. She obviously feels a great amount of guilt over the situation, and she says she 'dragged her around for months' while her sister was detemined to give up. I think it's unfair to blame Jane for her sister's choice to give in to her despair and despondency.
If we are placing blame for this situation, i would be inclined to see the reverse here. Jane's sister almost got Jane killed because she wouldn't pull her head out of her arse. Jane had been keeping her safe, fed and sheltered on her own for months. How long is she expected to do so? Especially when the recipient refuses to even begin to try? How long should she forcibly keep this girl alive when she doesn't want to be? Is it not a form of coercion to force someone to take actions they find unacceptable?
god yes your so right I honestly cant stand people who shot kenny for that manipulative bitch jane, Kenny is like the only thing from season… more 1 we have to cherish. now ill admit kenny does have some issues plus he lost his family on the same day! now I know some of you are going to try to call me a kennpoligist or whatever but kenny despite all his promblems I know he loves clem and AJ hence why he said hed rather have them at wellington than himself. on my playthrough I chose to stay with kenny, my lee and kenny in season 1 were like brothers and plus I wanted him to watch after clemtine not omid or christa because he knows what it means to have a family.I honestly cried when I thought kenny had died in season 1.not only that I mean how could anyone trust jane when you try to use a baby to start a fight, and abandon your own sister how can anyone like that have loyallty. so yeah fuck jane I wish there was an option to kill her myself.I hope that my dear kenny is alright in season 3 or I dont know what ill do.
Sorry, Kenny vs. Jane seems to be trending yet again, right now. I knew I shouldn't have thrown that in at the last second.
In response to you saying that Luke and Bonnie, I was pointing out how he has to deal with the consequences of his actions. For as much as Kenny acts like a psycho, at least you know for sure that his heart is in the right place and he genuinely regrets some of the things he does;
Comparatively, Jane doesn't have that quality and thus most of the time she supposedly apologizes for something, it feels kinda shallow. I'll copy in my rant about that in a sec.
EDITED IN FROM THIS THREAD BECAUSE IM LAZY: As I've stated before, Jane came off as unintentonally unsympathetic in this episode because of the baggage that didn't carry over properly from Amid the Ruins: her absentminded implication that Rebecca could get rid of the baby, trying to repeatedly convince Clementine to give up on the group, being the one who decided to rob and threaten Arvo, making Luke the offer that caused him to shirk his guard duty, her role in both of Sarah's deaths and her abandonment of the group before the final scene, which meant she avoided the brunt of the Russian attack. The fact that most of this is water under the bridge in this episode despite the horrible connotations of some just didn't feel right; the only true exceptions are Jane's apology to Clementine for leaving, Luke and Bonnie's visual skepticism towards her initial reappearance and a complainer is wrong moment with Kenny("Don't try and pin this on me."). Back on topic, having Jane and Mike discuss having Arvo along and their role in it could've help address this by having Jane and Arvo actually interact towards each other's presence. While she didn't necessarily disagree with killing Arvo, Jane seemed to think he was useful enough to use for supplies and got angry with Kenny for beating him so badly; Arvo actually having a chance to be around Jane without Clementine and Kenny would also address whether he still holds a grudge against her, avoids contact out of fear, or if Clementine and Kenny simply overshadowed what little beef he had with her and he is mutually indifferent. Seeing as Arvo wasn't exactly in a speaking mood at the time, I would like to think Clementine popping into the conversation would potentially have Jane officially apologize to both for starting the conflict with the Russians in the first place. As unlikely as it may sound, Jane was consistently softened around Clementine so I would've liked to think she would admit her wrongdoings when she isn't feeling pressured or on trial.
But seriously, apart from Bonnie, Carlos and Sarah, you can tell anyone else in Season 2 that you fucking hate them and that you'd like them to diethat they'll still love you.
What? Im sorry, can you please explain this part to me?
Kenny screwups? What? Uhhh, sorry, but how does Kenny screwups relate with anything I said?
How does Kenny relate with anything I say?
… more Who even mentioned Kenny?
HURRRRRRRR * explodes *
But seriously, apart from Bonnie, Carlos and Sarah, you can tell anyone else in Season 2 that you fucking hate them and that you'd like them to die that they'll still love you. Kenny, Jane, Rebecca, Alvin, Nick, Mike... EVERYONE.
I dont care why jane abandoned her sister the act itself made me sick, I dont care if my friend or my family member dosent want to live im still going to try and help them.its the same thing with suicide your not just going to abandon your friend or family member just because they dont want to live anymore your going to help them through it. but thats just my opinion about that, so you can think what she did with her sister was right , but me personally i'd never give up on my friends especially my family even if they dint want to live, whinch is exactly why I chose to stay with kenny till the end, because even though he has problems hes like family to me.
Should Jane have just sat there with her sister waiting to die as well?
You can't force people to want to live, just as Jane explained to… more Clem when she told her the story. She obviously feels a great amount of guilt over the situation, and she says she 'dragged her around for months' while her sister was detemined to give up. I think it's unfair to blame Jane for her sister's choice to give in to her despair and despondency.
If we are placing blame for this situation, i would be inclined to see the reverse here. Jane's sister almost got Jane killed because she wouldn't pull her head out of her arse. Jane had been keeping her safe, fed and sheltered on her own for months. How long is she expected to do so? Especially when the recipient refuses to even begin to try? How long should she forcibly keep this girl alive when she doesn't want to be? Is it not a form of coercion to force someone to take actions they find unacceptable?
What? Im sorry, can you please explain this part to me?
Well, I was trying to say that even if you express dislike towards certain characters through dialogue options, their relationship towards Clem will be always the same. For example, you can antagonize Jane throughout the whole No Going Back episode, yet she still confides in you not matter what. Same with Kenny, you can say some messed up shit when he's mourning in the tent, he'll say 'I can't even look at ya right now', but in later scenes what Clem said is completely forgotten and Kenny is Clem's friend again...
Sorry for the overuse of hyperboles in my original comment.
About your original comment.... I don't think it's very on topic to what I said, honestly. I'll adress it though.
I was pointing out how he has to deal with the consequences of his actions. For as much as Kenny acts like a psycho, at least you know for sure that his heart is in the right place and he genuinely regrets some of the things he does;
Before No Going Back, I would've completely agreed with you. All the bullshit Kenny had done before had some kind of reasoning behind it and was in order to protect someone. That's what was separating Kenny from being a potential monster to being a real and dangerous monster, that's what made his character at least bearable. When he attempted to kill Jane I didn't see any of that. There was no reasoning behind what Kenny was doing and killing Jane wasn't going to help anyone. It would only hurt Clem.
About Jane, I acknowledge that she didn't admit her guilt on that one but I think she kinda made up for it when she saved the group. Kinda sucks that you can't call her out for that, but, as you said, perhaps she would've said she regretted it afterwards? There's no way to know.
We also can't forget that her heart had the best of intentions when robbing Arvo. She wanted to make sure Rebecca had a safe labour.
Sorry, Kenny vs. Jane seems to be trending yet again, right now. I knew I shouldn't have thrown that in at the last second.
In response t… moreo you saying that Luke and Bonnie, I was pointing out how he has to deal with the consequences of his actions. For as much as Kenny acts like a psycho, at least you know for sure that his heart is in the right place and he genuinely regrets some of the things he does;
Comparatively, Jane doesn't have that quality and thus most of the time she supposedly apologizes for something, it feels kinda shallow. I'll copy in my rant about that in a sec.
EDITED IN FROM THIS THREAD BECAUSE IM LAZY: As I've stated before, Jane came off as unintentonally unsympathetic in this episode because of the baggage that didn't carry over properly from Amid the Ruins: her absentminded implication that Rebecca could get rid of the baby, trying to repeatedly convince Clementine to give up on the group, being the one who dec… [view original content]
Well, I was trying to say that even if you express dislike towards certain characters through dialogue options, their relationship towards Clem will be always the same.
Oh, well that's a problem with the Season in general. And I actually confirmed not to long ago that Bonnie and Sarah do change their attitude during certain scenario's depending on how you treated them, so that really applies to Carlos the most.
About Jane,....
Yeah, for sure. Jane is in a bit of a tight spot because she did little to discourage any negative views of her. While I acknowledge that she had moments where she seemed like she genuinely wanted to try doing the right thing, there is just so much darkness(couldn't think of an appropriate word) to her efforts and methods that its kinda hard to take her serious on that. The fact that she has a small backlog of suspicious behavior, self-serving misdeeds, and a sketchy body count does not help.
Kinda sucks that you can't call her out for that....
Among a plethora of other things.... Unfortunately, that's yet another reason why I consider Amid the Ruins to arguably be worse than Episode 3. So. much. BAGGAGE!
We also can't forget that her heart had the best of intentions when robbing Arvo. She wanted to make sure Rebecca had a safe labour.
I made an entire topic talking about Jane and Arvo as examples when I first joined the community. Feel free to give that a read when you have spare time and/or post your own example in the comment section. But I will save you some trouble and say that there could've been a better way.
What? Im sorry, can you please explain this part to me?
Well, I was trying to say that even if you express dislike towards certain c… moreharacters through dialogue options, their relationship towards Clem will be always the same. For example, you can antagonize Jane throughout the whole No Going Back episode, yet she still confides in you not matter what. Same with Kenny, you can say some messed up shit when he's mourning in the tent, he'll say 'I can't even look at ya right now', but in later scenes what Clem said is completely forgotten and Kenny is Clem's friend again...
Sorry for the overuse of hyperboles in my original comment.
About your original comment.... I don't think it's very on topic to what I said, honestly. I'll adress it though.
I was pointing out how he has to deal with the consequences of his actions. For as much as Kenny acts like a psycho, at least you know for sure that his heart is in the right place and h… [view original content]
Actually, Carlos is one of the characters whose realtionship with Clem can be altered. I'm not sure if this is common knowledge (because honestly his lines are a bit buried in the dialogue), but depending on what you say in Episode 1 about Sarah to Carlos (either 'She needs to grow up some day' or any of the other options) Carlos dialogue in Episode 2 will change! If you told him that Sarah needs to grow up and you choose 'You're not my dad, Carlos.' when Luke wants Clem to come with him to the bridge, Carlos will agressively respond 'You certainly wish I wasn't' and Clem then responds with something extremely sassy (I can't remember right now what it was). However, if you don't tell him that Sarah needs to grow up, he responds to 'You're not my dad, Carlos' with something like 'I'm not, but I care about you'. Just a little detail some people might miss.
that's yet another reason why I consider Amid the Ruins to arguably be worse than Episode 3. So. much. BAGGAGE!
Well, actually, you can only call her out for causing the firefight after the firefight happens, so that's more of a No Going Back flaw. (Amid The Ruins is already hated enough, lets let it rest).
In Harms Way, will forever be despised by me because of what they did to Carver's character. What was building up to be the perfect grey intimidating antagonist the series needed, turned out to be a tyranical madman because Episode 3 writters couldn't understand what his character was building up to! They made him go to the black side of morality way too fast. That was unforgivable to me.
I made an entire topic talking about Jane and Arvo as examples when I first joined the community. Feel free to give that a read when you have spare time and/or post your own example in the comment section.
Well, not sure if you remember, but I actually already did! xD (on the Jane one).
I apologize in advance for this cluster.
Well, I was trying to say that even if you express dislike towards certain characters through… more dialogue options, their relationship towards Clem will be always the same.
Oh, well that's a problem with the Season in general. And I actually confirmed not to long ago that Bonnie and Sarah do change their attitude during certain scenario's depending on how you treated them, so that really applies to Carlos the most.
About Jane,....
Yeah, for sure. Jane is in a bit of a tight spot because she did little to discourage any negative views of her. While I acknowledge that she had moments where she seemed like she genuinely wanted to try doing the right thing, there is just so much darkness(couldn't think of an appropriate word) to her efforts and methods that its kinda hard to take her serious on that. The fact that she has a small backlog of suspicious behavior, self-serving misdeed… [view original content]
I'm not sure if this is common knowledge (because honestly his lines are a bit buried in the dialogue), but depending on what you say in Episode 1 about Sarah to Carlos (either 'She needs to grow up some day' or any of the other options) Carlos dialogue in Episode 2 will change!
Huh. Shows what I know!
Amid The Ruins is already hated enough, lets let it rest
Oh no, you're right about No Going Back having the flaw in question, but as far as I can tell, Amid the Ruins is the true source of confusion. I've confirmed that it had severely different writers than the rest of the season and while I don't wanna point fingers, it seems to be one likely cause. The episode introduces so many unfortunate implications, so much wasted character, and so many missed oppurtunities, that it just saddled No Going Back with all this baggage of what should've/could've/would've been.
At least I know why Episode 3 as a whole doesn't work for me; Amid the Ruins gets it harder because it had the makings of greatness while you play through it (the character development, the admittedly suitably varied at first tone, the symbolism, the few funny moments with Mike and Bonnie, etc.)and then those baffling 'plot' progressing decisions just taint everything going forward. I was literally so bitter after completing the episode that not only did I not acknowledge the credits song until recently(though the song did kinda bore me at first), but it took me at least three days to get over it and finally decide to wrap up the season with No Going Back.
In Harms Way, will forever be despised by me because of what they did to Carver's character.
Sorry for you, love. You guys were following this season the whole time and got your hopes up for nill. Granted, that episode had other problems that make it suck hard for me, but I feel for you.
Unfortunately, I kinda hate Carver because he was predictable, kinda one-note, and corny: I literally called the Social Darwinist aspect the moment I saw him at the Cabin, he comes off as an un-ironic insufferable mouthpiece leading a settlement, and his tendency to 'flirt' with Rebecca, Sarah, and Clementine was awkward in a not fun way.
Well, not sure if you remember, but I actually already did! xD (on the Jane one).
I think I do[,he lied]. Yeah, the Arvo one bombed pretty hard on the first go round. I recently abused the edit address to cut down my introduction and posted the analysis in the comments so that both threads will have another chance to live up to their original purpose.
so that really applies to Carlos the most.
Actually, Carlos is one of the characters whose realtionship with Clem can be altered. I'… morem not sure if this is common knowledge (because honestly his lines are a bit buried in the dialogue), but depending on what you say in Episode 1 about Sarah to Carlos (either 'She needs to grow up some day' or any of the other options) Carlos dialogue in Episode 2 will change! If you told him that Sarah needs to grow up and you choose 'You're not my dad, Carlos.' when Luke wants Clem to come with him to the bridge, Carlos will agressively respond 'You certainly wish I wasn't' and Clem then responds with something extremely sassy (I can't remember right now what it was). However, if you don't tell him that Sarah needs to grow up, he responds to 'You're not my dad, Carlos' with something like 'I'm not, but I care about you'. Just a little detail some people might miss.
that's yet another reason why I … [view original content]
Kenny wasn't around until after the halfway point of the episode.
Sorry, that was my mistake, I forgot that he didn't appear in Episode 1 - I meant Episode 3.
You know, its really sad that you can say something like this and I can totally believe it.
It is a Dystopian world where the dead roam, some people might go to any limits to survive, as sad and horrible as it sounds
I would like to think Carver's not that stupid. He clearly was a control freak, so having as many prisoners to bring home would have been a goal. Also, I see him keeping Sarah and determinantly Clementine for a multitude of reasons, the upmost being a bargaining chip against Carlos.
Precisely why I believe he wasn't just looking for Rebecca, but also attempting to recruit individuals along the way - after all, Howe's isn't exactly 'in shape'.
It would've been nice to see more of Kenny listening to Clementine - specifically at the beginning of Episode 2, quite a bit of a quick cont… morerast but understandable I suppose.
Kenny wasn't around until after the halfway point of the episode.
Wouldn't stop him from killing/capturing them and then looting all their belongings would it?
You know, its really sad that you can say something like this and I can totally believe it.
If he truly only cared about Rebecca, he could've easily removed the risk of any threat by killing everyone other than her - which would leave Kenny, determinantly Clementine and Luke left apart from Rebecca.
I would like to think Carver's not that stupid. He clearly was a control freak, so having as many prisoners to bring home would have been a goal. Also, I see him keeping Sarah and determinantly Clementine for a multitude of reasons, the upmost being a bargaining chip against Carlos.
I firmly believe that one should never surrender to a hostage situation, ever, as you don't have a way of knowing what future held, not only for the others who are already hostage, but for yourself. Below is how I think characters acted without knowing what Carver would do with them were they to be taken as prisoners.
Fair enough, I'm not saying I would surrender but sometimes it can be the better option - if it gets the least amount of people killed/injured and ends up presenting a chance to escape later on.
What Luke did was ideal, and the smartest—running away. It ensures that you are safe and it doesn't put others in danger any more than they are.
I agree, although it might seem cowardice, in the Ski Lodge situation - after the events it is rather evident that Luke's tactics were the most effect, even if it ended up failing somewhat.
What Kenny did was the second best path—attacking. Though it puts other at danger, you give them a slim chance of being saved, and you are safe yourself. Those who had been taken hostage already had an uncertain future.
Then comes the debate - is it better to risk getting people killed for a slim chance of succession? Whilst their futures were uncertain and it's understandable they'd fight back - after Carver's warning it was evident that fighting would only lead more people to die (determinantly Alvin) and Kenny was no longer able to do anything of effect - he killed one individual and that warned everyone else - Bonnie, Troy and Carver were then cautious of a hostile individual. In the end, I think it's plausible that if Kenny kept attacking then Clementine/Sarita would've died and the group's chances to escape Howe's would've been more or less minimal.
What Alvin proposed is the worst that you can do—you have given a person who you don't know the ability to do anything with you, be it manslaughter, torture, rape, or worse.
Not always. It could depend on how hostile the individual is - such as if they already started killing people. In their situation they had three choices - attempt to escape and risk getting killed (high risk option), let Kenny try to save them whilst Carver continues killing individuals as he does so (definite risk with a low probability of a positive outcome), or give in temporarily (uncertain risk option) - those who give up aren't always subject to negative circumstances but regardless of what they do in this situation, they take the risk of death or at least injury. I'm not saying it's right or exactly smart to give up to the oppressor but sometimes it's better than just blindly attacking the oppressor when you know you're at a disadvantage.
I firmly believe that one should never surrender to a hostage situation, ever, as you don't have a way of knowing what future held, not only… more for the others who are already hostage, but for yourself. Below is how I think characters acted without knowing what Carver would do with them were they to be taken as prisoners.
What Luke did was ideal, and the smartest—running away. It ensures that you are safe and it doesn't put others in danger any more than they are.
What Kenny did was the second best path—attacking. Though it puts other at danger, you give them a slim chance of being saved, and you are safe yourself. Those who had been taken hostage already had an uncertain future.
What Alvin proposed is the worst that you can do—you have given a person who you don't know the ability to do anything with you, be it manslaughter, torture, rape, or worse.
I agree with the rest of your post, prink.
True. So many missed opportunites, so many unfortunate implications, so much wasted character, so much baggage.
Oh, Amid the Ruins, why you do this to me?
Well, let's see--Nick and Sarita were dead/turned/deader, Sarah was most likely laid out, Rebecca had been put down, Bonnie was doing her pope impression, Mike got hit, Luke was taking cover, Buricko was crawling backwards and shooting a shotgun with one arm, Vitali was being a psycho, Kenny was being hilarious, and Clementine was siteseeing on the cobblestone-- that'd be one huge NOPE.
So, basically, Bonnie could've done something but didn't since she was the only one without a primary focus - arguably she wanted to get Mike to safety. By the way, what happened to Mike's 'injury'? Does he even mention it later when Clementine is treating Luke's injury? I guess everyone suddenly forgot there was a baby in the middle of the ground, crying it's lungs out, oh well, gunfights can make you temporarily deaf I guess?
True, though he did lampshade not letting Arvo drown himself. Just being technical.
Fair enough, but what if Arvo preferred drowning over being a punching bag? It's possible xD
Oh, there's a word for that--its called being petty.:p
Welp, I'm far from the only individual that's guilty of that on here
Did anyone even notice that AJ wasn't in Rebecca's arms anymore?
Well, let's see--Nick and Sarita were dead/turned/deader, Sarah was… more most likely laid out, Rebecca had been put down, Bonnie was doing her pope impression, Mike got hit, Luke was taking cover, Buricko was crawling backwards and shooting a shotgun with one arm, Vitali was being a psycho, Kenny was being hilarious, and Clementine was siteseeing on the cobblestone-- that'd be one huge NOPE.
I'm not sure if I'd called capturing him and keeping him as prisoner the same as saving
True, though he did lampshade not letting Arvo drown himself. Just being technical.
...entirely written to disprove the OP's statement that Kenny would do anything for Clementine.
Oh, there's a word for that--its called being petty.
That's a bit derogatory.
Ya think?
Kenny wasn't around until after the halfway point of the episode.
Sorry, that was my mistake, I forgot that he didn't appear in Epis… moreode 1 - I meant Episode 3.
You know, its really sad that you can say something like this and I can totally believe it.
It is a Dystopian world where the dead roam, some people might go to any limits to survive, as sad and horrible as it sounds
I would like to think Carver's not that stupid. He clearly was a control freak, so having as many prisoners to bring home would have been a goal. Also, I see him keeping Sarah and determinantly Clementine for a multitude of reasons, the upmost being a bargaining chip against Carlos.
Precisely why I believe he wasn't just looking for Rebecca, but also attempting to recruit individuals along the way - after all, Howe's isn't exactly 'in shape'.
I dont care why jane abandoned her sister the act itself made me sick, I dont care if my friend or my family member dosent want to live im still going to try and help them.
So you don't care about her intentions, reasoning or other factors and variables that were included in her decision to leave her sister behind? That's what Jane did - she tried to help her Jaime but she couldn't throw her across the roof - even if she could, she'd risk harming her sister or getting her killed.
its the same thing with suicide your not just going to abandon your friend or family member just because they dont want to live anymore your going to help them through it.
Well, of course if people cared about their friends and family they wouldn't just abandon them - the situation with suicide is different from Jane's situation - she had already dragged her sister across four states and walkers were surrounding her location, meaning that her only options were to leave her sister behind and let her die (as she wanted to) or stayed behind to die with her (which Jane didn't want to do).
but thats just my opinion about that, so you can think what she did with her sister was right , but me personally i'd never give up on my friends especially my family even if they dint want to live, whinch is exactly why I chose to stay with kenny till the end, because even though he has problems hes like family to me.
I respect your opinion and I would try to save my family and friends - although I can't be definite about my actions in a situation I've never been in or know the full context behind. So, may I ask if your family/friend couldn't be saved and had been wanting to die for a while, would you choose to leave them or die with them? Personally, I don't think either decision is a relatively good one since death occurs regardless.
I dont care why jane abandoned her sister the act itself made me sick, I dont care if my friend or my family member dosent want to live im … morestill going to try and help them.its the same thing with suicide your not just going to abandon your friend or family member just because they dont want to live anymore your going to help them through it. but thats just my opinion about that, so you can think what she did with her sister was right , but me personally i'd never give up on my friends especially my family even if they dint want to live, whinch is exactly why I chose to stay with kenny till the end, because even though he has problems hes like family to me.
So you don't care about her intentions, reasoning or other factors and variables that were included in her decision to leave her sister behind? That's what Jane did - she tried to help her Jaime but she couldn't throw her across the roof - even if she could, she'd risk harming her sister or getting her killed.
NO like I already had said I dont care about her intetions, honestly now that I think about it when jane told clem about the story of her sister what makes you think she was telling you the truth about there being no other to way save her sister, your pretty much just taking everything she said at face value, and someone like jane whos shown to be manipulative,dishonest, can you really believe what shes saying?well you can but im definitely not. especially after you lie about a baby being dead just to start a fight.And to anwser your last question yes if they really wanted to die and its what they wanted and there was nothing I could say or do to change their mind than yes i'll let them die.
I dont care why jane abandoned her sister the act itself made me sick, I dont care if my friend or my family member dosent want to live im s… moretill going to try and help them.
So you don't care about her intentions, reasoning or other factors and variables that were included in her decision to leave her sister behind? That's what Jane did - she tried to help her Jaime but she couldn't throw her across the roof - even if she could, she'd risk harming her sister or getting her killed.
its the same thing with suicide your not just going to abandon your friend or family member just because they dont want to live anymore your going to help them through it.
Well, of course if people cared about their friends and family they wouldn't just abandon them - the situation with suicide is different from Jane's situation - she had already dragged her sister across four states and walkers were surrounding her location, meaning that her on… [view original content]
The game is tailored in a way that you're by his side no matter what you want, which understandably makes the adult characters think that Clementine is just a child who doesn't realize how dangerous Kenny is.
This is why clem is better as an NPC, thats a good arc for a child to have, not realizing or wanting to see the real person
I don't really know what Jane was trying to prove to be honest. EVERYONE knew Kenny had a temper. Clementine knew it better than anybody, an… mored she'd stuck by him so Jane's purpose was a waste of time to me.
The thing about Season Two is that it never allows you to outright say that you believe Kenny is dangerous and you want to go away from him. The game is tailored in a way that you're by his side no matter what you want, which understandably makes the adult characters think that Clementine is just a child who doesn't realize how dangerous Kenny is.
The guy had lost his wife, child, and then his new partner. It's enough to send anyone mad,
I argue that losing three family members only sends about one percent of survivors mad. How come very little people in the entirety of the The Walking Dead franchise brutalize others and disregard what everybody else thinks because they have gone through grief? It's the reason for Kenn… [view original content]
Jane was trying to prove Kenny was dangerous and rushed to conclusions (in her own weird stupid way), but she underestimated how far Kenny had gone herself. Killing means nothing to Kenny any more, he kills Jane and doesnt even see what he did was wrong
I don't really know what Jane was trying to prove to be honest. EVERYONE knew Kenny had a temper. Clementine knew it better than anybody, an… mored she'd stuck by him so Jane's purpose was a waste of time to me. The guy had lost his wife, child, and then his new partner. It's enough to send anyone mad, at least he didn't kidnap Clem and keep Sarita's head in a box. So to go and make out like AJ was dead was just gross on her part and I don't blame Kenny for going at her. She was looking for provocation and she got it, end of discussion.
To be honest I can understand making either choice in the fight, both of them are flawed people. Personally though after doing a full playthrough with choosing both sides Kenny's is far worse for me. The way Kenny seems to think he did the right thing is just...chilling. Its very well written that he got to that point but its horrifying
"You didnt have to kill her Kenny"
"Sorry darling but I did...."
////
"Then you didnt have to kill her!, you didnt have to kill jane!"
"I did, I had to do it"
What I really have a problem with is Kenny's "endings" after this scene where Kenny is potrayed as a noble hero who sacrifices himself for the kids thats just bizzare continuation and feels undeserved, with a massive happy lovey scene. Kenny is a good character however him being potrayed that way just feels off and a bit like the writers themselves didnt see what a psychopath he is now. Im not saying Jane's endings are much better but they feel more of a logical step.
This is of course just with this scene, Kenny's character has plenty of problems but this scene isnt really one of them.
To be honest I can understand making either choice in the fight, both of them are flawed people. Personally though after doing a full playth… morerough with choosing both sides Kenny's is far worse for me. The way Kenny seems to think he did the right thing is just...chilling. Its very well written that he got to that point but its horrifying
"You didnt have to kill her Kenny"
"Sorry darling but I did...."
////
"Then you didnt have to kill her!, you didnt have to kill jane!"
"I did, I had to do it"
What I really have a problem with is Kenny's "endings" after this scene where Kenny is potrayed as a noble hero who sacrifices himself for the kids thats just bizzare continuation and feels undeserved, with a massive happy lovey scene. Kenny is a good character however him being potrayed that way just feels off and a bit like the writers themselves didnt see what a psychopath he is now. Im not saying Jane's endings are much better but t… [view original content]
Honestly now that I think about it when jane told clem about the story of her sister what makes you think she was telling you the truth about there being no other to way save her sister, your pretty much just taking everything she said at face value, and someone like jane whos shown to be manipulative,dishonest, can you really believe what shes saying?
You're absolutely right that Jane is someone who would gladly bend the truth a bit to buy sympathy, but that's the one thing I know she had to be truthful about: as I mentioned before, any other time Jane tries to appeal to someone or apologize for her actions, it feels shallow. Whenever her sister was brought into the equation, however, her tone completely changed: she'd get pensive, irritable, she'd stutter a bit from stress, and just generally get emotional when otherwise she's pretty stoic.
As much as it pisses me off, the reason she looked down on Sarah and took an interest in Clementine was because they were just/nothing like her sister in her mind: Sarah being huddled in the trailer caused Jane to become noticeably agitated, whereas her "bonding" time with Clementine would have her smile and joke around. Even when the calming periods after Sarah's death(both of em) happen, Jane just defaults back to "because my sister" in order to justify her desire to abandon Sarah or the Group. She's pretty clearly screwed up over it and seems to have been trying to distance herself from her sister for years.
What we see in the story is the result of this: a stoic, bitter, amoral survivalist who will stoop to any sublevel she sees as absolutely necessary to ensure her survival on her own.
So you don't care about her intentions, reasoning or other factors and variables that were included in her decision to leave her sister behi… morend? That's what Jane did - she tried to help her Jaime but she couldn't throw her across the roof - even if she could, she'd risk harming her sister or getting her killed.
NO like I already had said I dont care about her intetions, honestly now that I think about it when jane told clem about the story of her sister what makes you think she was telling you the truth about there being no other to way save her sister, your pretty much just taking everything she said at face value, and someone like jane whos shown to be manipulative,dishonest, can you really believe what shes saying?well you can but im definitely not. especially after you lie about a baby being dead just to start a fight.And to anwser your last question yes if they really wanted to die and its what they wanted and there was nothing I could say or do to change their mind than yes i'll let them die.
So, basically, Bonnie could've done something but didn't since she was the only one without a primary focus - arguably she wanted to get Mike to safety. I guess everyone suddenly forgot there was a baby in the middle of the ground, crying it's lungs out, oh well, gunfights can make you temporarily deaf I guess?
Yeah, I suppose, but that sixteen bean burrito was puttin up one helluva fight!
By the way, what happened to Mike's 'injury'? Does he even mention it later when Clementine is treating Luke's injury?
It is visible on his arm for the reminder of the game. Whether it hampers him from that point on is unclear, since the only heavy lifting he does is help support Luke and carry a bag of supplies.
Coulda been just a fleshwound, though.
Fair enough, but what if Arvo preferred drowning over being a punching bag? It's possible xD
Considering the main reasons he ran was because he was afraid of the walkers AND Kenny, I doubt it. Plus, Kennny had been pretty calm that day up until that point, all things considered.
Well, let's see--Nick and Sarita were dead/turned/deader, Sarah was most likely laid out, Rebecca had been put down, Bonnie was doing her po… morepe impression, Mike got hit, Luke was taking cover, Buricko was crawling backwards and shooting a shotgun with one arm, Vitali was being a psycho, Kenny was being hilarious, and Clementine was siteseeing on the cobblestone-- that'd be one huge NOPE.
So, basically, Bonnie could've done something but didn't since she was the only one without a primary focus - arguably she wanted to get Mike to safety. By the way, what happened to Mike's 'injury'? Does he even mention it later when Clementine is treating Luke's injury? I guess everyone suddenly forgot there was a baby in the middle of the ground, crying it's lungs out, oh well, gunfights can make you temporarily deaf I guess?
True, though he did lampshade not letting Arvo drown himself. Just being technical.
Fair enough, but what if Arv… [view original content]
Comments
You know what, I didn't even think about that! What the hell, writers?
Granted, if you didn't meet the Russians on that road in one scenario, where would you meet?
I'll respect your beliefs but I can't say I agree with them - I do think there's a good possibility that Kenny does have mental issues (although debatabley everyone may have one) but if he has and he isn't stable that only emphasizes how dangerous he is and he is capable of unintentionally harming the people he loves - whilst I think Kenny should be sympathized or empathized with, it is still clear that he is a dangerous individual.
That quote provides little context to how he actually dealt with the situation, besides, this was his son - it can be argued that paternal instincts can cause a father to become aggressive if they believe their child is snagged by a stranger and what it meant is entirely up to interpretation. Whilst we can analyse his current character pre-loss of Duck and Katjaa to determine how he could've acted, we can't prove it.
I personally wouldn't assume that Kenny usually acted with anger considering we only have one instance to analyse with little context behind it. Even then, the situation with Duck could've been a special case - I'm not sure how many individuals, calm or aggressive, would just calmly ask a complete stranger to let go of their child.
He does so in response to Larry wanting to throw Duck out of the Pharmacy or smash his head in. Again, I doubt he reacted that angrily in stressful situations before the apocalypse unless people constantly tried to get his son killed. May I ask which exact interactions with Lilly over leadership indicated this? I don't think his trait appeared out of nowhere but you don't need to be easily angered to feel angry or be aggressive - even if it's just on occasion - Anger is, after all, one of the basic human emotions and the apocalypse has evidently proven that people can change for the better or for the worse when they think their life is over.
Then she'd be making assumptions of Kenny - she doesn't actually know he has anger problems - considering their lives were on the line not that long ago and considering that Arvo was apart of the Russian group, it's not exactly surprising that someone would be angry. It could even be possible that Jane thought that Kenny had a bully-like mentality - thinking that it's alright to hurt others if they do something wrong to you - considering how she states her displeasure towards Kenny beating Carver and Kenny bullying Arvo - it's possible that she perceived Kenny to be a bully, not one prone to anger but one that enjoyed lashing their anger out on others - if this was the case, it makes her plan at the end of Episode 5 a bit more understandable.
Those lines do show that she's presently evident of Kenny's anger and that she's aware of how he is a potential threat to her and the group.
That does emphasize that Jane's plan worked - whilst I believe it was for a different intention - a test - I think it evidently showed the lengths Kenny would go to with his anger.
Fair enough, I don't support Jane's last action in attempting to deceive Kenny either but overall I personally think that Jane is a better person - perhaps not in morality but in the fact that she shows more progression and a sense of humanity.
Welp, my opinion clearly won't change and neither will yours so I guess there's not much point in debating it. But AJ wasn't present during the fight - his cries are only heard after either Kenny or Jane die and at least a minute or two after.
I don't know about that, he was already hostile towards her throughout Episode 5 - treating her like a child, practically ignoring her apology, calling her a bad influence. Taking into consideration the fact that he only assumed AJ died because of Jane, I think I would be more supportive of Kenny's actions towards her had she actually stated that she got AJ killed, Kenny hadn't let Jane give an explanation nor did he try looking for AJ himself. One could argue that even if AJ was alive, Kenny would kill Jane - seeing her as a deceptive liar and a danger to AJ and Clementine.
Hopefully if that were an ending, AJ wouldn't be with Kenny regardless - since I think that out of everyone, Clementine is best suited to care for AJ - seeing as she can keep him alive on her own for at least 9 days without having to rely on trusting Jane or Kenny.
How could Jane have proven to Kenny that AJ was alive without him calling her 'bluff', especially considering that Kenny was constantly attacking her.
These chose to believe in Arvo and chose to cross the middle of the river rather than walking around it, ultimately that was the group's own fault. Plus, for Arvo and his group, the river was likely safe if they've routinely crossed it - meaning that the ice cracking was always a possible occurrence regardless. In the end, Luke died because Bonnie or Clementine went too close and caused the ice to break - which caused Luke to drown. To me, it felt like Kenny was taking his anger out on Arvo just because there was someone 'beneath' him, a way to make himself feel superior or he could've been taking out his anger on Arvo - in my opinion that isn't just, especially when none of the other group members blamed Arvo - in fact, Bonnie can blame herself for what happened to Luke and what almost happened to Clementine.
I still don't think so - considering that he never let Jane give an explanation - wouldn't he want to know what exactly happened to determine the probability of whether he might be alive or not?
Luke had the radio plan, Jane had the use Walker guts to escape and manipulate Troy plan, Bonnie extended the escape plan, Mike was the one who suggested going to Parker's Run (was it called that? I've forgotten, sorry xD), ironically enough it was Jane who planned on finding and getting Luke and determinantly Nick and Sarah to safety, it was Jane who suggested to open the Observation Deck, it was Bonnie/Mike that suggested to look in the Museum - Bonnie suggesting giving the jacket to Rebecca and Clementine finds the water etc. I think he would've been a better leader if he directed the group towards the town if I'm honest xD
Edit: Spelling mistake
Perhaps at the town? Would've made the final decision of Episode 4 have an effect apart from determining who blames Clementine for Rebecca's physical state.
I'm sure we'll all be on quite often once TWDGS3 is around the corner!
Yeah but that only proves Alvin's death was his fault. I can understand Kenny's emotional reaction to the situation but ultimately, he is responsible for his actions. It would've been nice to see more of Kenny listening to Clementine - specifically at the beginning of Episode 2, quite a bit of a quick contrast but understandable I suppose.
Wouldn't stop him from killing/capturing them and then looting all their belongings would it? I doubt Jane wanted to be recruited into Carver's community so I have a feeling that Carver forces people into their community as practically slaves until they work their way up the power ladder. Depends on whether Bonnie would've told Carver about the Ski Lodge or not and also whether Carver would head towards it or not - there are many probabilities to consider.
Choosing to surrender in order to ensure someone lives is doing something - like it or not. It's not that it wasn't helpful in my eyes it was that it evidently wasn't helpful - the fact is that Kenny got people killed - sure, he had his intentions but the consequences of his actions caused Walter and determinantly Alvin to die and he knew the consequences he would face after Walter was shot - he knew that Carver would keep killing people until he surrendered and he only stops when it's someone he cares about.
What could they have done to not make matters worse or escalate the situation? Even if Luke was present at the time what would he have been able to do? Of course, Luke is worthy of blame for doing nothing - even thought he fled so he could later attempt to save the group - arguably it was the smartest thing to do, it didn't get anyone hurt and it gave the group a chance to escape later on - although it ultimately failed just as Kenny's plan did.
I'm afraid I can't say I agree - I'd at least think he'd come for Carlos as well considering he was a Doctor, possibly the only Doctor at Howe's that could look after Rebecca. Considering he also has a community that is still under construction, I wouldn't be surprised if he was also looking for extra builders. If he truly only cared about Rebecca, he could've easily removed the risk of any threat by killing everyone other than her - which would leave Kenny, determinantly Clementine and Luke left apart from Rebecca. Perhaps Sarah would also be alive if he wanted Carlos. I'm 85% certain that no one knows his complete intentions.
Yeah, not much of an excuse in my opinion considering how she is still treated like a child later on but still a pretty fair point. Neither am I if I'm honest, I was hoping that Sarita wouldn't have died regardless because of it![:\](https://community.telltale.com/resources/emoji/confused.png ":\")
And this disproves the OP's statement that Kenny would do anything for Clementine - that was the main point of my reply. Of course they count, everyone who was present and wasn't Clementine or AJ barely did anything to try and save either - except for Luke who determinantly goes to save AJ. I agree with the oddity of the scene, there are so many questions - unless everyone suddenly became Stormtroopers, I'm not sure how most people survived the fight.
And I applaud Kenny for that but, again, my comment was to disprove the OP's statement that Kenny would do anything for Clementine. I wouldn't count the latter considering that Kenny doesn't take risks for himself, he takes risks for Clementine and AJ by either letting them stay with him in the snow or letting them leave into a community they know nothing about. Regardless of where Clementine chooses to go, Kenny's fate when they reach Wellington is always the same.
I know it was, again, I was disproving the OP's statement - as I've already stated in my previous reply...
Or perhaps she was hoping there was a chance that he would? I doubt that she wouldn't have at least considered that possibility. But Kenny directly caused the fight - it was his lunge at Jane after she sheathed her knife that began the actual fight. Yes, Jane manipulated Kenny by implying that AJ was dead but he didn't even let her give an explanation.
Past a certain point, yes. Kenny began the fight with the intent to kill her. That doesn't signify that Kenny was done with the fight but yes, Jane did get mad enough to go berserk on him at that point. I agree, both were in the wrong - I don't agree with Jane's plans and I dislike how Kenny reacted, whilst I can understand the intentions behind the actions of both.
Kenny was attacking her... do you truly believe he would've just let her leave? Kenny, after all, does still continue to attack her even when her knife is unsheathed. She could've yes, but was her focus set on Kenny, whether it was to kill him or to ensure he didn't try to sneak up on her? Likely.
I think she was more so preoccupied, she could've easily gotten killed if she gave Kenny the vantage point. In the end, one could think that Jane choosing not to reveal AJ's location and status at that point in time meant she truly wanted to show Clementine how far Kenny would go, even letting herself get killed in the process - after all she did have the chances to, even when she was being overpowered by Kenny. Sometimes I wonder what peoples' reactions would've been like if Jane had thought AJ was dead and left him in the car instead of actually trying to manipulate Kenny xD I think Jane's actions were the culmination of Kenny's. Whilst, yes, Jane did devise the plan to test Kenny's anger, it was Kenny and his actions towards the group that lead her to feel as though she needed to test him. Does this justify it? Absolutely not. But did it have some sense to it? I think so. Kenny was the primary conflict within the group after the Gun Fight - it was the way he treated everyone, and in particular, Jane, that caused the group to fall apart and Jane to lose faith in Kenny - as she had some faith in him in the beginning of the episode.
I look at both sides as well, it's not as fun if a debate is linear
Fair enough, I'd say I get carried away too - although not entirely this scene just in debates in general - I'll admit that I may enjoy them, I like to see how other's think and overall, it improves my debating and literary skills. So long as you remember that this is all fun and games there shouldn't be anything to worry about ^-^ after all the only opinions that should matter to each of us are our own!
Yeah, I can understand that but in the scenario where she calls out to Kenny, I can't help but feel it's a form of abandonment, perhaps not intentional.
Oh, I actually thought that she may have gotten shot or something xD Yeah that's understandable but I can't help but feel that at least someone else, other than Clementine, would've noticed AJ crying on the ground - a few feet from Luke and Kenny - and Mike and Bonnie practically walked past him too. Did anyone even notice that AJ wasn't in Rebecca's arms anymore?
I'm not sure if I'd called capturing him and keeping him as prisoner the same as saving xD and yes I can understand that Jane and Bonnie were closer but that paragraph was entirely written to disprove the OP's statement that Kenny would do anything for Clementine.
That's a bit derogatory. I was hoping, however, that Kenny cared enough about Clementine to have listened to her - I feel like the fight highlights how Kenny cared more about AJ than Clementine at the time. Yeah, AJ was possibly dead but you'd think a family man like Kenny would prioritize protecting Clementine, the family he has left, over taking revenge on Jane - as he doesn't even have proof she did anything to him.
Kenny wasn't around until after the halfway point of the episode.
You know, its really sad that you can say something like this and I can totally believe it.
I would like to think Carver's not that stupid. He clearly was a control freak, so having as many prisoners to bring home would have been a goal. Also, I see him keeping Sarah and determinantly Clementine for a multitude of reasons, the upmost being a bargaining chip against Carlos.
True. So many missed opportunites, so many unfortunate implications, so much wasted character, so much baggage.
Oh, Amid the Ruins, why you do this to me?
Well, let's see--Nick and Sarita were dead/turned/deader, Sarah was most likely laid out, Rebecca had been put down, Bonnie was doing her pope impression, Mike got hit, Luke was taking cover, Buricko was crawling backwards and shooting a shotgun with one arm, Vitali was being a psycho, Kenny was being hilarious, and Clementine was siteseeing on the cobblestone-- that'd be one huge NOPE.
True, though he did lampshade not letting Arvo drown himself. Just being technical.
Oh, there's a word for that--its called being petty.
Ya think?
Potential-latent qualities or abilities that may be developed and lead to future success or usefulness.
But yeah, there could've been more potential, but I think we'd all rather have kinetic.
Too bad it doesn't amount to much....
At least Kenny has direct consequences for his screwups!
Truth!
Oh that discussion. That was mostly a joke. I wanted to see your reaction if I painted Jane's plan in white light. Just so you know the plan was indeed stupid involving risking AJ's life. But it was a type of test what Kenny would do if someone got his loved one killed accidentally or otherwise. And I'm afraid that he failed.
Yes, Kenny is dangerous and there are many instances where he doesn't seem to be able to control his anger, but in my opinion, there are certain people, whom he develops an attachment with, that he wouldn't be able to bring himself to harm. Kenny's will to live is often stemmed from his desire to protect someone, which was why he became more unstable after Duck and Kat's deaths. Once Clem and later AJ came into focus with his life, they once again, gave him his purpose, so if he did harm them, it'd pretty much lead the way for the end of Ken's own life, most likely, though suicide. So, no, I don't believe he'd be able to harm them because without them, he'd have nothing and thus, would be bringing himself more pain.
Yes, you're correct and I'll agree to disagree with regards to this section of the debate, as it really simply depends on one's own interpretation on how they perceive Kenny to be before the events of the Walking Dead. I, personally, believe that most likely he'd be an individual with some temper issues, of course nothing compared to how bad they become later on, as I don't think certain aspects in a person's character appear from nowhere, but you clearly look at it in another manner, which isn't necessarily wrong or right because as you said, there's no way to prove it.
I was referring really to their constant fighting as a whole, as it only took Kenny a few months to already find himself constantly arguing with another individual, despite the annoyance it caused everyone, and with no real hints of a common ground.
Well, yes, in my view, Jane had made the assumption Kenny was a dangerous individual, which to an extent, he is and that he could have harmed Clem or AJ, despite having little proof to back up that point. Now, what type of mentally Jane had of Kenny as a whole, I truly couldn't say, but I do believe she knew his anger was a heavy facture he couldn't always control, but again, this is mostly up for the interpretation one has of what Jane believes.
Oh, yeah, I'll admit, her plan definitely succeeds in what she had intended, showing the extent of what Kenny's rage could eventually become when something he cares for is at threat- it turns vicious. It really just lies down on how loyal or how much trust Clem has in either Kenny or Jane in the end of it all, though.
While I do think that Kenny never actually liked Jane to begin with, I think the main reason for how he treated her was due to the fact, like most members in the group, he wasn't sure what to think of her and whether she could be trusted. Especially when she technically caused the Russians to come after them and had fled previous. There's also the facture that later on, during the fight Kenny and her had in the car, Jane brought up his family, causing him to outright dislike her and automatically think the worse of her afterwards.
That I can genuinely agree with. Clementine, despite her age, is probably the most grounded, and in touch with her morals, making her the best candidate to care for the child.
While that is certainty a possibility, I'd have to disagree. I think, with Kenny's character, he always has to find someone or something, to blame for how things went to shit, and in this case, it was Arvo. Arvo was, in Kenny's mind, the cause for Rebbeca's and Luke's deaths, and Clem falling into the river, even though most likely, it wasn't. I don't believe he wants to feel superior, though I won't deny that he's a fan of being in the leadership position, just that he needs something to blame.
Well, she gave the indication that the child was dead and when he went out to search for AJ, seeing him nowhere, Kenny's lack of trust in Jane made him jump to the conclusion that she was responsible. All he needed was the belief that AJ was dead, which Jane could've tried to put a stop to by confirming the opposite. It has to be reminded that Kenny wasn't really thinking things through.
I apologize, I should have made that point clearer. You're right that others made suggestions, but what I meant was that Kenny, really, was the only one who seemed to have a long term plan- find Wellington. Jane didn't really suggest going to Howe's until the last episode.
Anyway, good discussion, though if I missed any of your points, it was because I tried to make that shorter, which hopefully it is.
Kenny screwups? What? Uhhh, sorry, but how does Kenny screwups relate with anything I said?
How does Kenny relate with anything I say?
Who even mentioned Kenny?
HURRRRRRRR * explodes *
But seriously, apart from Bonnie, Carlos and Sarah, you can tell anyone else in Season 2 that you fucking hate them and that you'd like them to die that they'll still love you. Kenny, Jane, Rebecca, Alvin, Nick, Mike... EVERYONE.
I shot him because he seemed to be a liability. Once you've gone crazy in a zombie apocalypse, I doubt there' a lot of returning from that. Jane was reckless, too, which is why I left her too.
I firmly believe that one should never surrender to a hostage situation, ever, as you don't have a way of knowing what future held, not only for the others who are already hostage, but for yourself. Below is how I think characters acted without knowing what Carver would do with them were they to be taken as prisoners.
What Luke did was ideal, and the smartest—running away. It ensures that you are safe and it doesn't put others in danger any more than they are.
What Kenny did was the second best path—attacking. Though it puts other at danger, you give them a slim chance of being saved, and you are safe yourself. Those who had been taken hostage already had an uncertain future.
What Alvin proposed is the worst that you can do—you have given a person who you don't know the ability to do anything with you, be it manslaughter, torture, rape, or worse.
I agree with the rest of your post, prink.
So this issue is still floating around the TWD section of this site. I thought we would have gotten past that Kenny vs. Jane deal.
Quite honestly, I really don't even think it matters all that much anymore what a person decides to do in the game, because all of the choices have predetermined outcomes.
Sorry if I'm being a buzz-kill right now, but this is an old issue, and quite frankly it is a meaningless issue.
New people are joining the discussion in ways that it has not been presented before! It is not discussing who was right and who was wrong—sometimes it is Jane's plan, others is Kenny's motivation, or why picking one over the other would be the most reasonable or human choice.
You don't have to join the discussion if you consider it to be monotone, but quite honestly, you have broken the fourth wall with your comment.
If people are talking about a certain topic in the place they should be discussing it, without harming or bothering anyone else, why do you feel the need to come here and say that we all shouldn't be talking about it? Believe it or not, these forums are used for discussing Telltale Games, that's what people are doing. If you're not interested in this topic, do yourself and everyone else a favour and don't come here and try to dictate that what people are discussing is 'meaningless'.
I was under the impression that Lee accidentally killed the Man that his wife was sleeping with, during a fistfight. Not that he killed his wife.
There are multiple options to tell people that 'i don't know where my ex-wife is' at Hershel's farm and even later.
I think, with regards to Kenny and why people might feel that Clem isn't safe with him; it's less that he killed/is capable of killing, and more that he is irrational and unpredictable and doesn't listen to anyone else's opinion. Which makes him dangerous to be around.
Whereas Lee, in comparison, was pretty rational and always seemed cognizant of Clem's feelings on things (as well as others) and actually chose to take them into account, ie: whether or not you rob the station wagon. Just my opinion of course
Should Jane have just sat there with her sister waiting to die as well?
You can't force people to want to live, just as Jane explained to Clem when she told her the story. She obviously feels a great amount of guilt over the situation, and she says she 'dragged her around for months' while her sister was detemined to give up. I think it's unfair to blame Jane for her sister's choice to give in to her despair and despondency.
If we are placing blame for this situation, i would be inclined to see the reverse here. Jane's sister almost got Jane killed because she wouldn't pull her head out of her arse. Jane had been keeping her safe, fed and sheltered on her own for months. How long is she expected to do so? Especially when the recipient refuses to even begin to try? How long should she forcibly keep this girl alive when she doesn't want to be? Is it not a form of coercion to force someone to take actions they find unacceptable?
Sorry, Kenny vs. Jane seems to be trending yet again, right now. I knew I shouldn't have thrown that in at the last second.
In response to you saying that Luke and Bonnie, I was pointing out how he has to deal with the consequences of his actions. For as much as Kenny acts like a psycho, at least you know for sure that his heart is in the right place and he genuinely regrets some of the things he does;
Comparatively, Jane doesn't have that quality and thus most of the time she supposedly apologizes for something, it feels kinda shallow. I'll copy in my rant about that in a sec.
EDITED IN FROM THIS THREAD BECAUSE IM LAZY: As I've stated before, Jane came off as unintentonally unsympathetic in this episode because of the baggage that didn't carry over properly from Amid the Ruins: her absentminded implication that Rebecca could get rid of the baby, trying to repeatedly convince Clementine to give up on the group, being the one who decided to rob and threaten Arvo, making Luke the offer that caused him to shirk his guard duty, her role in both of Sarah's deaths and her abandonment of the group before the final scene, which meant she avoided the brunt of the Russian attack. The fact that most of this is water under the bridge in this episode despite the horrible connotations of some just didn't feel right; the only true exceptions are Jane's apology to Clementine for leaving, Luke and Bonnie's visual skepticism towards her initial reappearance and a complainer is wrong moment with Kenny("Don't try and pin this on me."). Back on topic, having Jane and Mike discuss having Arvo along and their role in it could've help address this by having Jane and Arvo actually interact towards each other's presence. While she didn't necessarily disagree with killing Arvo, Jane seemed to think he was useful enough to use for supplies and got angry with Kenny for beating him so badly; Arvo actually having a chance to be around Jane without Clementine and Kenny would also address whether he still holds a grudge against her, avoids contact out of fear, or if Clementine and Kenny simply overshadowed what little beef he had with her and he is mutually indifferent. Seeing as Arvo wasn't exactly in a speaking mood at the time, I would like to think Clementine popping into the conversation would potentially have Jane officially apologize to both for starting the conflict with the Russians in the first place. As unlikely as it may sound, Jane was consistently softened around Clementine so I would've liked to think she would admit her wrongdoings when she isn't feeling pressured or on trial.
What? Im sorry, can you please explain this part to me?
I dont care why jane abandoned her sister the act itself made me sick, I dont care if my friend or my family member dosent want to live im still going to try and help them.its the same thing with suicide your not just going to abandon your friend or family member just because they dont want to live anymore your going to help them through it. but thats just my opinion about that, so you can think what she did with her sister was right , but me personally i'd never give up on my friends especially my family even if they dint want to live, whinch is exactly why I chose to stay with kenny till the end, because even though he has problems hes like family to me.
Well, I was trying to say that even if you express dislike towards certain characters through dialogue options, their relationship towards Clem will be always the same. For example, you can antagonize Jane throughout the whole No Going Back episode, yet she still confides in you not matter what. Same with Kenny, you can say some messed up shit when he's mourning in the tent, he'll say 'I can't even look at ya right now', but in later scenes what Clem said is completely forgotten and Kenny is Clem's friend again...
Sorry for the overuse of hyperboles in my original comment.
About your original comment.... I don't think it's very on topic to what I said, honestly. I'll adress it though.
Before No Going Back, I would've completely agreed with you. All the bullshit Kenny had done before had some kind of reasoning behind it and was in order to protect someone. That's what was separating Kenny from being a potential monster to being a real and dangerous monster, that's what made his character at least bearable. When he attempted to kill Jane I didn't see any of that. There was no reasoning behind what Kenny was doing and killing Jane wasn't going to help anyone. It would only hurt Clem.
About Jane, I acknowledge that she didn't admit her guilt on that one but I think she kinda made up for it when she saved the group. Kinda sucks that you can't call her out for that, but, as you said, perhaps she would've said she regretted it afterwards? There's no way to know.
We also can't forget that her heart had the best of intentions when robbing Arvo. She wanted to make sure Rebecca had a safe labour.
I apologize in advance for this cluster.
Oh, well that's a problem with the Season in general. And I actually confirmed not to long ago that Bonnie and Sarah do change their attitude during certain scenario's depending on how you treated them, so that really applies to Carlos the most.
Yeah, for sure. Jane is in a bit of a tight spot because she did little to discourage any negative views of her. While I acknowledge that she had moments where she seemed like she genuinely wanted to try doing the right thing, there is just so much darkness(couldn't think of an appropriate word) to her efforts and methods that its kinda hard to take her serious on that. The fact that she has a small backlog of suspicious behavior, self-serving misdeeds, and a sketchy body count does not help.
Among a plethora of other things.... Unfortunately, that's yet another reason why I consider Amid the Ruins to arguably be worse than Episode 3. So. much. BAGGAGE!
I made an entire topic talking about Jane and Arvo as examples when I first joined the community. Feel free to give that a read when you have spare time and/or post your own example in the comment section. But I will save you some trouble and say that there could've been a better way.
Actually, Carlos is one of the characters whose realtionship with Clem can be altered. I'm not sure if this is common knowledge (because honestly his lines are a bit buried in the dialogue), but depending on what you say in Episode 1 about Sarah to Carlos (either 'She needs to grow up some day' or any of the other options) Carlos dialogue in Episode 2 will change! If you told him that Sarah needs to grow up and you choose 'You're not my dad, Carlos.' when Luke wants Clem to come with him to the bridge, Carlos will agressively respond 'You certainly wish I wasn't' and Clem then responds with something extremely sassy (I can't remember right now what it was). However, if you don't tell him that Sarah needs to grow up, he responds to 'You're not my dad, Carlos' with something like 'I'm not, but I care about you'. Just a little detail some people might miss.
Well, actually, you can only call her out for causing the firefight after the firefight happens, so that's more of a No Going Back flaw. (Amid The Ruins is already hated enough, lets let it rest).
In Harms Way, will forever be despised by me because of what they did to Carver's character. What was building up to be the perfect grey intimidating antagonist the series needed, turned out to be a tyranical madman because Episode 3 writters couldn't understand what his character was building up to! They made him go to the black side of morality way too fast. That was unforgivable to me.
Well, not sure if you remember, but I actually already did! xD (on the Jane one).
Huh. Shows what I know!
Oh no, you're right about No Going Back having the flaw in question, but as far as I can tell, Amid the Ruins is the true source of confusion. I've confirmed that it had severely different writers than the rest of the season and while I don't wanna point fingers, it seems to be one likely cause. The episode introduces so many unfortunate implications, so much wasted character, and so many missed oppurtunities, that it just saddled No Going Back with all this baggage of what should've/could've/would've been.
At least I know why Episode 3 as a whole doesn't work for me; Amid the Ruins gets it harder because it had the makings of greatness while you play through it (the character development, the admittedly suitably varied at first tone, the symbolism, the few funny moments with Mike and Bonnie, etc.)and then those baffling 'plot' progressing decisions just taint everything going forward. I was literally so bitter after completing the episode that not only did I not acknowledge the credits song until recently(though the song did kinda bore me at first), but it took me at least three days to get over it and finally decide to wrap up the season with No Going Back.
Sorry for you, love. You guys were following this season the whole time and got your hopes up for nill. Granted, that episode had other problems that make it suck hard for me, but I feel for you.
Unfortunately, I kinda hate Carver because he was predictable, kinda one-note, and corny: I literally called the Social Darwinist aspect the moment I saw him at the Cabin, he comes off as an un-ironic insufferable mouthpiece leading a settlement, and his tendency to 'flirt' with Rebecca, Sarah, and Clementine was awkward in a not fun way.
I think I do[,he lied]. Yeah, the Arvo one bombed pretty hard on the first go round. I recently abused the edit address to cut down my introduction and posted the analysis in the comments so that both threads will have another chance to live up to their original purpose.
Sorry, that was my mistake, I forgot that he didn't appear in Episode 1 - I meant Episode 3.
It is a Dystopian world where the dead roam, some people might go to any limits to survive, as sad and horrible as it sounds![:\](https://community.telltale.com/resources/emoji/confused.png ":\")
Precisely why I believe he wasn't just looking for Rebecca, but also attempting to recruit individuals along the way - after all, Howe's isn't exactly 'in shape'.
Fair enough, I'm not saying I would surrender but sometimes it can be the better option - if it gets the least amount of people killed/injured and ends up presenting a chance to escape later on.
I agree, although it might seem cowardice, in the Ski Lodge situation - after the events it is rather evident that Luke's tactics were the most effect, even if it ended up failing somewhat.
Then comes the debate - is it better to risk getting people killed for a slim chance of succession? Whilst their futures were uncertain and it's understandable they'd fight back - after Carver's warning it was evident that fighting would only lead more people to die (determinantly Alvin) and Kenny was no longer able to do anything of effect - he killed one individual and that warned everyone else - Bonnie, Troy and Carver were then cautious of a hostile individual. In the end, I think it's plausible that if Kenny kept attacking then Clementine/Sarita would've died and the group's chances to escape Howe's would've been more or less minimal.
Not always. It could depend on how hostile the individual is - such as if they already started killing people. In their situation they had three choices - attempt to escape and risk getting killed (high risk option), let Kenny try to save them whilst Carver continues killing individuals as he does so (definite risk with a low probability of a positive outcome), or give in temporarily (uncertain risk option) - those who give up aren't always subject to negative circumstances but regardless of what they do in this situation, they take the risk of death or at least injury. I'm not saying it's right or exactly smart to give up to the oppressor but sometimes it's better than just blindly attacking the oppressor when you know you're at a disadvantage.
You bring up a good argument, BetterToSleep!
True. So many missed opportunites, so many unfortunate implications, so much wasted character, so much baggage.
Yeah, when I look at what was removed from Season Two, I keep wondering how much better it could've been xD but that is up to opinion.
So, basically, Bonnie could've done something but didn't since she was the only one without a primary focus - arguably she wanted to get Mike to safety. By the way, what happened to Mike's 'injury'? Does he even mention it later when Clementine is treating Luke's injury? I guess everyone suddenly forgot there was a baby in the middle of the ground, crying it's lungs out, oh well, gunfights can make you temporarily deaf I guess?
Fair enough, but what if Arvo preferred drowning over being a punching bag? It's possible xD
Welp, I'm far from the only individual that's guilty of that on here
Yep
Well that too, but I was specifically referring to Carver showing up at the lodge and wrecking their shit for no reason.
So you don't care about her intentions, reasoning or other factors and variables that were included in her decision to leave her sister behind? That's what Jane did - she tried to help her Jaime but she couldn't throw her across the roof - even if she could, she'd risk harming her sister or getting her killed.
Well, of course if people cared about their friends and family they wouldn't just abandon them - the situation with suicide is different from Jane's situation - she had already dragged her sister across four states and walkers were surrounding her location, meaning that her only options were to leave her sister behind and let her die (as she wanted to) or stayed behind to die with her (which Jane didn't want to do).
I respect your opinion and I would try to save my family and friends - although I can't be definite about my actions in a situation I've never been in or know the full context behind. So, may I ask if your family/friend couldn't be saved and had been wanting to die for a while, would you choose to leave them or die with them? Personally, I don't think either decision is a relatively good one since death occurs regardless.
So you don't care about her intentions, reasoning or other factors and variables that were included in her decision to leave her sister behind? That's what Jane did - she tried to help her Jaime but she couldn't throw her across the roof - even if she could, she'd risk harming her sister or getting her killed.
NO like I already had said I dont care about her intetions, honestly now that I think about it when jane told clem about the story of her sister what makes you think she was telling you the truth about there being no other to way save her sister, your pretty much just taking everything she said at face value, and someone like jane whos shown to be manipulative,dishonest, can you really believe what shes saying?well you can but im definitely not. especially after you lie about a baby being dead just to start a fight.And to anwser your last question yes if they really wanted to die and its what they wanted and there was nothing I could say or do to change their mind than yes i'll let them die.
This is why clem is better as an NPC, thats a good arc for a child to have, not realizing or wanting to see the real person
Jane was trying to prove Kenny was dangerous and rushed to conclusions (in her own weird stupid way), but she underestimated how far Kenny had gone herself. Killing means nothing to Kenny any more, he kills Jane and doesnt even see what he did was wrong
To be honest I can understand making either choice in the fight, both of them are flawed people. Personally though after doing a full playthrough with choosing both sides Kenny's is far worse for me. The way Kenny seems to think he did the right thing is just...chilling. Its very well written that he got to that point but its horrifying
"You didnt have to kill her Kenny"
"Sorry darling but I did...."
////
"Then you didnt have to kill her!, you didnt have to kill jane!"
"I did, I had to do it"
What I really have a problem with is Kenny's "endings" after this scene where Kenny is potrayed as a noble hero who sacrifices himself for the kids thats just bizzare continuation and feels undeserved, with a massive happy lovey scene. Kenny is a good character however him being potrayed that way just feels off and a bit like the writers themselves didnt see what a psychopath he is now. Im not saying Jane's endings are much better but they feel more of a logical step.
This is of course just with this scene, Kenny's character has plenty of problems but this scene isnt really one of them.
That really is cold.
You're absolutely right that Jane is someone who would gladly bend the truth a bit to buy sympathy, but that's the one thing I know she had to be truthful about: as I mentioned before, any other time Jane tries to appeal to someone or apologize for her actions, it feels shallow. Whenever her sister was brought into the equation, however, her tone completely changed: she'd get pensive, irritable, she'd stutter a bit from stress, and just generally get emotional when otherwise she's pretty stoic.
As much as it pisses me off, the reason she looked down on Sarah and took an interest in Clementine was because they were just/nothing like her sister in her mind: Sarah being huddled in the trailer caused Jane to become noticeably agitated, whereas her "bonding" time with Clementine would have her smile and joke around. Even when the calming periods after Sarah's death(both of em) happen, Jane just defaults back to "because my sister" in order to justify her desire to abandon Sarah or the Group. She's pretty clearly screwed up over it and seems to have been trying to distance herself from her sister for years.
What we see in the story is the result of this: a stoic, bitter, amoral survivalist who will stoop to any sublevel she sees as absolutely necessary to ensure her survival on her own.
Yeah, I suppose, but that sixteen bean burrito was puttin up one helluva fight!
It is visible on his arm for the reminder of the game. Whether it hampers him from that point on is unclear, since the only heavy lifting he does is help support Luke and carry a bag of supplies.
Coulda been just a fleshwound, though.
Considering the main reasons he ran was because he was afraid of the walkers AND Kenny, I doubt it. Plus, Kennny had been pretty calm that day up until that point, all things considered.