Oh okay I was confused on your phrasing. But you can have an ending where all Kenny says is "Do it" before Clementine shoots him so. And like I said, no bias. For someone sticking around for two seasons OF COURSE they'd wrap his character up with a speech like that anyone would bias or not because that's just basic development. Jane not getting one is just them saying how little there would be to say if she did.
That was not at all what I said. I said best because he was able to redeem himself, despite being tragic. I meant best in the sense that it … morewas most thoughtful, narrative-wise. Funny enough I did like the "Stay in Wellington" ending the best, especially against Jane's two endings, which to me we were not as thoughtful and showed me that the writers preferred Kenny over Jane (I mean, Kenny can have a whole speech before he dies but Jane just... dies).
The argument I'm making here is not that I didn't like Kenny's endings, it's that they show writers bias towards his character.
EDIT: I just saw your addition.
Because happy and tragic ARE adjectives that cancel each other out.
I am having a really hard time figuring out t where you think I ever said Kenny's endings are happy. I think you're confusing my usage of "best" to mean happy when I meant "best" to be closer to thoughtful. And like we established, thoughtful and happy aren't always the same thing.
Yeah, I mentioned in my original post that I excluded the "shoot Kenny right after killing Jane" ending from his best endings.
And I mean, the fact that they brought him back for a major part of season 2 I think is in itself bias. The only other character that shares as much screen time is Clem, which is understandable as she is the heart of season 1 and the protagonist of season 2. Kenny was a supporting character for season 1, and if he absolutely have had to have been brought back to season 2 he should have stayed a supporting character. Instead he took up so much of the focus from episode 3-5 that he pretty much rivaled Clem for character development (while repeating a similar arc from the first season). I definitely thought it made the story too much about him. Nearly every discussion revolved around him, good or bad. That is bias.
Oh okay I was confused on your phrasing. But you can have an ending where all Kenny says is "Do it" before Clementine shoots him so. And lik… moree I said, no bias. For someone sticking around for two seasons OF COURSE they'd wrap his character up with a speech like that anyone would bias or not because that's just basic development. Jane not getting one is just them saying how little there would be to say if she did.
Yeah, I mentioned in my original post that I excluded the "shoot Kenny right after killing Jane" ending from his best endings.
And I mean… more, the fact that they brought him back for a major part of season 2 I think is in itself bias. The only other character that shares as much screen time is Clem, which is understandable as she is the heart of season 1 and the protagonist of season 2. Kenny was a supporting character for season 1, and if he absolutely have had to have been brought back to season 2 he should have stayed a supporting character. Instead he took up so much of the focus from episode 3-5 that he pretty much rivaled Clem for character development (while repeating a similar arc from the first season). I definitely thought it made the story too much about him. Nearly every discussion revolved around him, good or bad. That is bias.
Bringing Kenny back and giving the player closure is not the issue, it was making the story revolve around him. It felt as though he was the only thing moving the story forward, and that took too much power away from Clementine to tell her story. I'm still standing by that the writers were too biased with their effort in writing Kenny into the story. Compared to basically every other character (even compared to those that should have gotten a great focus for development like Sarah and Luke) the complexity of his character is treated with the most respect. The writers put care into his story, and his death or farewell, which is more than I can say for all other cast members of the season. In short, Kenny's importance overshadowed everyone else.
Bringing Kenny back and giving the player closure is not the issue, it was making the story revolve around him. It felt as though he was the only thing moving the story forward, and that took too much power away from Clementine to tell her story. The writers put care into his story, and his death or farewell, which is more than I can say for all other cast members of the season. In short, Kenny's importance overshadowed everyone else.
Thank you!
I've stated before that I'm positively neutral when it comes to Kenny, but these set of sentences are exactly what has been changing my mind for a short while now.
Bringing Kenny back and giving the player closure is not the issue, it was making the story revolve around him. It felt as though he was the… more only thing moving the story forward, and that took too much power away from Clementine to tell her story. I'm still standing by that the writers were too biased with their effort in writing Kenny into the story. Compared to basically every other character (even compared to those that should have gotten a great focus for development like Sarah and Luke) the complexity of his character is treated with the most respect. The writers put care into his story, and his death or farewell, which is more than I can say for all other cast members of the season. In short, Kenny's importance overshadowed everyone else.
Early "preview" before I eventually post my thoughts.
I came into this Season relatively blind outside of a few broad expectations and vague spoilers. The general premise was that Clementine helps a group of refugees escape the tyranny of an evil settlement leader and make their way to safety. While Kenny had more prominence than I assumed, episode 3 manage to stick with this arc despite missing out on several other opportunities. And then as soon as Jane is brought into the spotlight..., it's not immediate, but the Cabin Group almost gets completely forgotten by the end of the penultimate episode. That is a serious problem.
EDIT: Question: Do you think I should post everything once it's all finished or should I split them by the episode for spatial reasons?
Kirkman wasn't involved in the writing for the Michonne miniseries. However, the guy that wrote the novel series, Jay Bonansinga, was credited as a story consultant for Michonne.
Kirkman's involvement in the game as a whole has been minimal. Outside of Telltale running ideas past him, he isn't involved too heavily in the development. As far as I can tell, I don't think he's even written anything for the series, including S1.
I definitely agree with Rig that 400 Days should have been the main group instead of Luke, Jane, Mike, Carlos, and Nick. Vince, Wyatt, Shel, Becca, Talia, Bonnie, and the teenager all would have been better characters overall. I am OK with Rebecca as we needed her for AJ, yet that's it. I think that Pete and Kenny would have been great friends and I wanted Matthew and Walter to have played major roles. From a story point of view, Clem siding with Jane didn't make sense. Clem was taught by Lee that family is important and it's all we have left. Lee lost everything, except Clem, so he was the bridge to the story. Jane was the opposite and was about survival first. She didn't even try to help Sarah both times, I would have dropped off the ledge to help Sarah. I hope that 400 days cast returns for season 3, more developed.
No, Jane, and to a lesser Nick and Carlos could've worked fine. Though I'd say Carlos would need Sarah there with him. I personally didn't get into Nick but I'm sure others would wanna keep him. Luke and Mike are blatant examples of potential that went untapped, with Mike being the worst about that.
Vince, Wyatt, Shel, Becca, Talia, Bonnie, and the teenager all would have been better characters overall.
In fact, their such better characters that you got two of their names wrong.
Clem was taught by Lee that family is important and it's all we have left. Lee lost everything, except Clem, so he was the bridge to the story. Jane was the opposite and was about survival first.
And this is one reason why I think Jane would've worked. She's a complex and morally thought provoking character, it's just that she's so unlikable at times.
I hope that 400 days cast returns for season 3, more developed.
I'm fine with just Taavia, Becca, and maybe Shel, personally. Russell, Vince, and Wyatt and especially Eddie can stay missing, though.
I definitely agree with Rig that 400 Days should have been the main group instead of Luke, Jane, Mike, Carlos, and Nick. Vince, Wyatt, Shel,… more Becca, Talia, Bonnie, and the teenager all would have been better characters overall. I am OK with Rebecca as we needed her for AJ, yet that's it. I think that Pete and Kenny would have been great friends and I wanted Matthew and Walter to have played major roles. From a story point of view, Clem siding with Jane didn't make sense. Clem was taught by Lee that family is important and it's all we have left. Lee lost everything, except Clem, so he was the bridge to the story. Jane was the opposite and was about survival first. She didn't even try to help Sarah both times, I would have dropped off the ledge to help Sarah. I hope that 400 days cast returns for season 3, more developed.
Big, not Rig, lol. I haven't played 400 Days in a very long time (hence my spelling errors) as it is a reminder of the untapped potential of season 2. I personally liked all of the characters in 400 Days.
S'cool. As I'll eventually explain, I didn't know much about 400 Days outside of the fact that it involved the Cancer Survivors and went unspoilered about it until I finally played it back in June as a filler arc before Season 2.
Also, I'd like an outside opinion: Do you think I should post all of my thoughts(more like impressions) on Season 2 once it's all finished or should I split them by the episode for spatial reasons? I have Episode 1 and 2 typed up already, but Episode 3 has been a bit stagnant for a number reasons and I know Episode 5 and especially 4 might take a bit to edit down.
Big, not Rig, lol. I haven't played 400 Days in a very long time (hence my spelling errors) as it is a reminder of the untapped potential of season 2. I personally liked all of the characters in 400 Days.
S'cool. As I'll eventually explain, I didn't know much about 400 Days outside of the fact that it involved the Cancer Survivors and went uns… morepoilered about it until I finally played it back in June as a filler arc before Season 2.
Also, I'd like an outside opinion: Do you think I should post all of my thoughts(more like impressions) on Season 2 once it's all finished or should I split them by the episode for spatial reasons? I have Episode 1 and 2 typed up already, but Episode 3 has been a bit stagnant for a number reasons and I know Episode 5 and especially 4 might take a bit to edit down.
I agreed with everything you said, expect that Luke was a coward. There weren't many instances that hinted he was a coward, after all, he did try to stage an escape for those that had been kidnapped by Carver and brought to Howe's, and was hinted at having led the original escape as well.
Season 2 I'm very ambivalent on. Kenny really saved the season for me. I kind of didn't like Luke's group from the beginning because of how … morehostile and stupid they could be(seriously you're going to treat a kid like that). I didn't even know Luke was supposed to be the leader until episode 3 I thought it was either Pete or Carlos as they were more dominant and protective unlike coward Luke. The group were really a bunch of idiots that were lucky to have survived that long. Also they spend like three minutes with each character with none of them being bold like in Season 1 so we don't really establish it for long. The group was acting like the apocalypse just happened when it had went on for two years now so they kept arguing with Kenny on things that were obviously what you had to do. (The only thing Kenny did wrong was trying to attack Carver's group in the truck which he didn't even get to do) Clementine and Kenny are really the only great … [view original content]
I'm gonna make my first impressions as brief as possible because I was thinking about making a thread about that.
When I heard there was supposed to be a Season 2 after watching the SuperGamingBros. playthrough, I decided that I would actually play it when all five episodes were released. In the meantime, I would avoid spoilers until the time was right. The first set of "spoilers" I came across was promotional art for the game featuring Clementine, an older white dude, and a girl with glasses. The second batch of spoilers came through an unknown source I can't recall that implied that Omid had died and that a dog was involved at some point.The third, true set of spoilers came from TV Tropes' YMMV page, which had the following un-spoilered and possibly outdated info: Clementine is leading a group of refugees to safety and saving them from an evil settlement leader, there's a basebreaker in a creepy little girl named Sarah who seems fixated on Clementine being her friend, there is a villain named is Carver who is a complete monster with rape under his belt, a guy named Luke is the subject of a basebreaking debate against another character over whether its worse to be reckless or soft, there is a pregnant woman named Rebecca who is a scrappy due to being portrayed as a bitch, and Luke is also seen as a scrappy because he allegedly makes things harder on Clementine, going as far as to abandon the group when they are captured. The fourth set of spoilers also comes from TVTropes as well as Youtube: reading up on the character page for Season 1 characters had me discover that Kenny's profile picture depicts him as having a gray beard and an eyepatch, which a quick peak below revealed him to be alive due to his role in Season 2 as a mentor-figure for Clementine; the Youtube clip revolved around seeing someone in the school library watching a clip of her sitting and talking with an old woman with red hair. And the final set of spoilers involved a combination of the three, including a review in Game Informer magazine depicting her as apparently having a baby(wtf), a few spoilers on TV Tropes hinting that Clementine gets shot and that there is a Russian family in the game, some "fanart", and finally a model swap depict Ben as Kenny fighting Lilly as another character in the snow.
So, after several weeks of knowing the game was out as a disc collection alongside Season 1(which I had no interest in playing at the time), I finally bought both in either late May or early June of 2016, with the 400 Days DLC that supposedly focused on Vernon's group as a bonus. After completing Season 1 over the course of two weeks, I took a break to work up some hype and immersion before finally putting in the Season 2 disc one Monday(?) night.
Best Episode
Best: A House Divided(most balanced character focus, most interactive gameplay segments, lots of suspenseful moments)
All That Remains(great atmosphere, sense of survival, ambiguous character alignment)
No Going Back(dragged down by baggage, sudden cast whittling, plot device inklings, brillaint climax, alternate endings)
In Harm's Way(wasted setting, wasted characters, uneven character focus, set-up for later episodes, bare episode in general)
Worst: Amid The Ruins(inconsistent tone, most uneven character focus, useless deaths of wasted characters, hypocritical morals)
Favorite and Least Favorite Moment
Favorite Moment: The escape from Howe's Hardware(lots of suspense, character, and action)
Least Favorite Moment: Sarah's "canon" death(one of the only legitimate story screw-ups that I can't bring myself to forgive)
Best Character
Favorite Character: Sarah(Clementine's dopey yet endearing friend/admirer), Luke(Deconstruction of Hero Complex), Michelle(One scene wonder, Debatably the most complex antagonist if you don't count Jane/Kenny)
Least Favorite: Jane(one of the few characters I legitimately hate), Carver(Corny predictable villain, especially in Episode 3), Third Character(I apparently meant to include one at the time)
I'm gonna make my first impressions as brief as possible because I was thinking about making a thread about that.
When I heard there was … moresupposed to be a Season 2 after watching the SuperGamingBros. playthrough, I decided that I would actually play it when all five episodes were released. In the meantime, I would avoid spoilers until the time was right. The first set of "spoilers" I came across was promotional art for the game featuring Clementine, an older white dude, and a girl with glasses. The second batch of spoilers came through an unknown source I can't recall that implied that Omid had died and that a dog was involved at some point.The third, true set of spoilers came from TV Tropes' YMMV page, which had the following un-spoilered and possibly outdated info: Clementine is leading a group of refugees to safety and saving them from an evil settlement leader, there's a basebreaker in a creepy little girl named Sarah who seems fixated … [view original content]
Oh, it will be so tempting to not just break out into a rant when I get to that part.
I keep saying I'll do a Sarah-centric topic since I first joined and started a discussion on the site just to get some of that stuff in one place, but I keep running into issues and constraints.
EDIT: Jumping Jack Flash!!!SIXTEEN PAGES OF UNASSORTED MATERIAL FOR THAT TOPIC!
Copied info from the Kenny! Topic, specifically a conversation with wdfan and Deltino Because I'm lazy and honestly think this belongs here where it'll be on topic. I tried my best to rearrange everything into a cohensive set of paragraphs but there's bound to be some mistakes, so if you notice certain sentences that feel out of order or say the same basic thing as another sentence, that is why! Also, there's a few edits I forgot to take into account. Sorry. :P
I came into this Season relatively blind outside of a few broad expectations and vague spoilers. The general premise was that Clementine helps a group of refugees escape the tyranny of an evil settlement leader and make their way to safety. While Kenny had more prominence than I assumed, episode 3 manage to stick with this arc despite missing out on several other opportunities. And then as soon as Jane is brought into the spotlight..., it's not immediate, but the Cabin Group almost gets completely forgotten by the end of the penultimate episode. That is a serious problem.
However, if the characters just weren't resonating with some people, that is a problem in and unto itself. Again, though, one would expect for the characters to grow and endear as the episodes progress; after all Season 1 Episode 2 was similarly paced and was also a contender for the best episode of the Season.
I'd expect the story to give some focus on other characters like Walter, Bonnie, Mike, or maybe Arvo at certain points, but the fact remains that a great story can contain multiple ones that we don't need to see the entirety of in order to appreciate them and can remember who the real stars of the show are.
For what it's worth, I thought Amid the Ruins took a respectable risk trying to continue the story without Carver being the active threat but what we got instead was a bit unbalanced in terms of execution.
For as much shit as people give it, I thought Amid the Ruins had something going by alternating focus between the characters, with Sarah, Kenny, and [the especially egregious] Jane getting top billing, but the problem there was that there was a little too much focus on them compared to the other characters in terms of the ratio. Which is why I consider Episode 2 to be the best of Season 2: it has overworld areas to explore, the amount of interaction is tops, and the character focus is surprisingly balanced even with Nick and Kenny getting the most emphasis.
Too bad he and Jane came at the cost of downplaying and eventually aborting pretty much everything the Season was supposed to be developing, including Clementine.
Call it retroactive backlash on my part(especially since I literally played through in June) but the drastic amount of effort those two have compared to everyone else is like 4:1.[I had to step away from the laptop for a bit and forgot my point, ] There should have been more effort into telling their story while also making sure the other characters got a chance to shine.
Reusing an old character should not come at the expense of developing a new set of relatively blank slates, especially if it causes your character focus roster to become so unbalanced in their favor that the protagonist themselves suffer for it.
At least Rebecca, Nick, and Sarah were definitely established with the intention to develop their storylines in mind, but the way they ended up being executed was mixed. I have yet to see anyone more than one person(zombiebonnie) say they legitimately liked Rebecca and she had the most complete(if a bit by the numbers) storyline of the three, Nick had a concretated effort put into integrating his story arc into Episode 2 before being drastically scaled back to having less screentime than Mike or Sarita in Episode 3 and then killed offscreen in Episode 4, and Sarah (in my potentially biased opinion) had the most balanced screentime for development before she was just moodwhiplashingly aborted without a proper conclusion to her arc, something I think even Nick managed to cobble together.
The reason I've been having a bitter feeling about Kenny lately IS basically because his addition and sudden promotion to the main roster felt like it was just a cover up for all the development that the Cabin Group(besides Rebecca and Sarah) wasn'tgonna get with "fanservice" and nostalgia. Unfortunately, it just made it more apparent by contrast: Why is Clementine, age eleven, spending so much time working with Kenny and Mike, two grown men, when she should realistically swap places with Nick on the women's team a little more often?
Character development works best when you have an end-game in mind, or at the very least, some kind of end point for the character themselves; a trajectory for where they'll be later down the line. When you're making things up as you go, it gets a lot harder to write a cohesive arc for anyone, because it gets all the more harder to pin-point where this character will land.
And this right here justifies Sarah and (to a lesser extent) Jane's presence on the main cast. As I've stated before, Sarah felt like the only member of the Cabin Group who had somewhere to go as a character by the time the Season wrapped up because of Clementine's connection to her, with the technical exception of Rebecca. ...You could argue there alot of places that were suggested by the story, but I'm gonna sidestep that topic for now. Jane on the other hand, was the inverse in that though you're likely meant to wonder where she'll go as well, it's her influence on Clementine that's the most important. I have my problems with her obviously, as my very first post in this community should indicate.
Unfortunately, Kenny's place in all this is a bit of a hotbutton topic to itself: following up on how he is and what he's been up to since Atlanta is an intriguing topic, but also served to be a spotlight stealing distraction. A lot of you absolutely love Kenny because you remember him from before as Lee, you got invested in his story as it progressed, and you were happy to know he would be there for Clementine with Lee gone. The problem with this should be obvious though: you remember him because of his connection to Lee, you were invested in the story that happened when you were there for him as Lee, and while him helping Clementine now is heartwarming, you kinda have to acknowledge that it's because of their memories of Lee. Clementine is NOT Lee and so that connection from before is skewed as a result and his inclusion on the character roster makes room for what is essentially a retelling of his story from Season 1, with some "fanservice" and nostalgia thrown in(as much as I did enjoy the latter, I'm sure there's someone out there who didn't). Which mind you, isn't really a bad thing in my books, except when it's done in a way that bogs down the story, rather than enhances it. When Kenny first appear, it was [not] a pleasant surprise and I was curious as to how he had survived his insistence on saving Ben and what sort of adventures he had been on with Sarita. Unfortunately, this isn't really that developed and neither is Sarita, who despite being a kind Indian woman whose efforts in rehabilitating Kenny and bonding with Sarah over a Christmas song of all things made her such a delightful new face as well as a stern combatant, is just barely not Katjaa, but might as well be for all we learn about her. Part of the reason why Episode 3 is objectively the weakest episode is because from literally the title screen, Kenny was constantly on screen photobombing and talking over the other characters before being involved in plot situations that another character(such as Sarita) probably should have been given. Take his walkietalkie smackdown from Carver and later crowbar test on him as an example: as much as I like these two scenes, they contribute to part of my problem with Carver since he had more of a personal connection with Kenny in these two scenes than Clementine did throughout the entire episode, despite the villain's attempts to convince us otherwise at the time. Another thing Amid the Ruins did right in my opinion was set Kenny aside so he could deal with his sense of deja vu and eventually morph into something that will help the story that was supposed to be being told for a while. And then Episode 5 did a so-so combination of the two that led the one kickass climax.
Mind you, I've stated numerous times that Kenny is a character I was positively neutral to: I'm happy enough when he's being helpful and when he's being a real asshole I wanna punch him in the face. So while he's far from my favorite character, it didn't bother me much at all to see all the pull he has, both in-universe and out. However, that has being gradually changing over these last few weeks as I've begun to notice that, rational or not, many of the problems I have with this season has his beard hair somewhere in the vicinity.
However, as much as I hate what a terrible person she turned out to be and the overabundance of screentime she was given, I'd be lying if I said Jane wasn't technically one of the saving graces of the Season once she got her steam goin. While I wasn't too keen on what a gimmick she was in her first episode, Amid the Ruins really went to [a little too much] effort to establish her as another character who could not only have meaningful interaction with Clementine but also one that could stand up on her own. The fact that they deliberately contrasted her with Sarah, the only other character who I thought actually held this title at that point in the story, was a stroke of genius that I realize is probably my true favorite moment in Season 2: just having these three chicks who are so different and yet so similar going at it in an abandoned trailer park! I was really looking forward to seeing the repercussions a scene like this would have in the future, but alas, Sarah was dropped like a bad habit and Jane was tainted for the rest of the Season for me. Episode 5 not only made this baggage worse, but from that point on, Jane(though to not as extreme a degree as Arvo) felt like she was being written specifically to be a character who would come into conflict with Kenny so we can have him get the huge climax, not Clementine. Despite the problems I have with this, I was still able to enjoy their climax because both had been established as individuals before their rivalry was built up(or flat out came out of nowhere, for the record) and the implications siding with one or the other or even neither does make you wonder how Season 3 is gonna follow it up. Though I'm not really looking forward to that, but that's a discussion for another day.
As I believe Deltino explained to me, Season 1 had a clear story/premise that it followed to the end, despite some brief railroading here and there.
Season 2, on the other hand, seemed a little too preoccupied about hard lessons/themes/morals(Clementine the Supposed Brute, Liabilities, Wellington) and fanservice(Kenny, Edgy!Clementine, Jane(debatable)) to stick to its guns and tell the story it was supposed to be(Nick's Redeption, Sarah's Corruption, Arvo's Lament).
When did Luke say we should listen to Carver?
Vitali and Buricko were the ones doing the mocking, not Arvo, whom they also mocked.
How is Mike not shooting Arvo, the sole surviving kid of another group who he tried to protect from Kenny's rage, when he didn't even have a gun not being a man? Goodness, I guess Bonnie had a point after all!
About Jane...no complaints! It might be a little more one-sided, but I got nothing to say.
The writers hated Kenny and that is obvious. The group kept saying that Kenny was unstable and crazy, yet he was the only one helping Rebecc… morea with AJ. Would a person losing it still have the mind to care for Clementine, AJ, and the group ? I liked that Bonnie died in the ice. It was fitting that she lived as a coward and died trying to save someone. Everyone always was hating on Kenny, yet he was trying to save everyone. Luke gets caught and says that we should listen to Carver ? Lol. Then everyone says that we shouldn't have left the compound. Mike says that he doesn't like the Confederate coat and I'm speechless. We're trying to keep this baby warm, it's a coat, goodness. Rebecca takes note of what I'm saying, so again no one was helping with the baby except Rebecca and Kenny, so how is he unstable ? It's like the writers were trying to trick us. Bonnie just got us all captured and some killed, let's be her friend. Arvo just got Rebecca kil… [view original content]
I just thought of another problem with Season 2 compared to Season 1: The Morality Scale! It's way off!
The morality was too black and white in those final three episodes in particualar: Alvin, Carlos, Carver, Luke, Sarah, and Arvo are all victims of this.
The trio of "setup, execution, and payoff" was a major issue with the Season in general.
In the first two episodes, numerous plot points centered around each member of the Cabin Group(including Luke) and their histories with Carver are set up but starting with Episode 3, a lot of things set up with each character are forgotten. This causes quite a few characters, such as Carlos and Alvin, to not have much character focus and other characters, like Luke and especially Carver, are simplified down to black and white morality. Other plots that are set up but barely followed up on are Nick's Redemption, Kenny and Sarita, Mike, Liabilities, and Sarah's Corruption.
Starting strong in the third episode, there is a notable increase in just stuff happening, with either little to no build-up, disproportionate payoff, or in this case, rushed or downright sloppy execution. Rebecca being vindicatively suspicious of Clementine at first before becoming very kind and tender towards her has little to no transition for it. The murder of Reggie is key example of how poor the pacing in Episode 3 in paricular is, since he's introduced and then killed off within three scenes within much time to get to know him. Clementine the Supposed Brute is compared as being alike to Carver without much interaction between the two or substantial evidence before or after, making it a poorly utilized cliche. Sarah's depression isn't given much focus pass the walk back and a few optional interactions, though the less said about the aftermath, the better. And Arvo's Lament, while admittedly an interesting story concept that better utilized grey and gray morality when compared to Carver, also feels like there's a step missing in his character development.
And finally, in the later episodes especially, we get a noticeable issue with proper payoff to significant events, which results in aborted arcs and unrevealed information. George, The Murder of Nick, Carver's history with the Cabin Group, the Swamping of Howe's Hardware, the Russian Ambush, and Sarah in particular are the most blatant examples of this. But to be honest, what is definitely the most egregious example of this is Clementine herself, by which I mean very little of what she experiences in this story has any lasting impact or meaningful consequences on her character. This includes, but is not limited to, her remorse concerning the death of Omid, her feelings of coldness brought on by her emotional and physical separation from Christ, her friendship and mentoring relationship with Sarah, her confidant and encouraging role towards Nick, her sibling like partnership with Luke, her support of Rebecca concerning her stress over her family, her chance at closure on the topic of Christa and Omid, her animosity with the likes of Carver and Troy, and her guilt over ruining the life of Arvo. Admittedly, some of this basically comes down to her being the playable character with various determinate options towards certain things but this was a problem that the previous protagonist Lee did not have.
Strongest: tied between 1 and 2. I enjoyed 2 more but both had solid writing with a few questionable elements (Rebecca's turn of disposition, "I got lucky", clem can now operate a wind turbine)
Weakest: 4. Always 4. The only thing I liked about 4 was Bonnie and Mike's bit at the museum (doesn't matter anyways), and Arvo's potential as a complex character (also didn't matter).
Strongest: tied between 1 and 2. I enjoyed 2 more but both had solid writing with a few questionable elements (Rebecca's turn of disposition, "I got lucky", clem can now operate a wind turbine)
Weakest: 4. Always 4. The only thing I liked about 4 was Bonnie and Mike's bit at the museum (doesn't matter anyways), and Arvo's potential as a complex character (also didn't matter).
I dont think the writing in season 2 was that great and preffered season 1 in that respect however I dont agree with most of your reasons, there not really bad writing, more you just didnt like it
My friend and I love well written literature and we both have made notes on Shawshank Redemption, The Godfather, Casino, Pulp Fiction, etc. We both love when art has a good story. I find that we both yell at the TV when we play season 2.
Kinda irrelevant
First off the deaths of Omid and Christa were rushed. We barely had any time to bond with them as it was in season 1. The death of Pete, which he had potential, was also rushed. I really wanted to see what his opinions were on Kenny.
I think they were too, however omid and christa really just seem like an excuse to show how clementine survived for two years, thats more or less the only reason they exsist. And to stop people asking about them like Kenny they killed them off. The cabin group were all over the place writing wise however petes quick death wasnt that bad, I wish his death had been better however it did serve to remind clementine again about lee and set nick of on whatever his arc was supposed to be initially. I also kind of get what they were trying to do, put clementine with a group she didnt really like but Kenny and other preferable characters meant this kind of backfired.
Episode 1 starts off promising with Clementine trying to survive without Lee. However as we meet the new group things go south quickly. Carlos is a doctor, yet he can't tell the difference between a human and a dog bite. He refuses to help Clementine as that would be a waste of supplies, when she's just a girl. They throw her in a shed, when she could die from infection, then they get upset when she sneaks out to steal the medicine. I don't see why they couldn't help her, then lock her in a room if she wants to stick around or give her a weapon and tell her she can go if she wants. So here is the first error.
None of this is bad writing, its good writing really, I dont see why anyone would believe clementine had been bit by a dog. The logical thing that would have bit her is a walker. They acted smart with what they did if a bit rushed. The only thing I think is damaging from this is that they potrayed the cabin group a bit too negatively to begin with, particularly rebecca.
The second one is when Nick shoots at Clementine. No one takes his gun away or yells at him enough. Then Carver shows up. He says that he is a neighbor that lives not far from there, implying that Luke and friends are so stupid that they escape from a prison and live in the first house that they see. Next we see them running again to hike up a mountain, believing that the ski resort is invisible to Carver. Nick is given the gun, somehow after the Clem incident, and he causes trouble again. Nick sees his uncle half eaten and is given the gun anyway. There are walkers and no one helps me and Luke, or should I say me as Luke is useless.
Sorry but this paragraph is all over the place, i'll try to break it down
The second one is when Nick shoots at Clementine. No one takes his gun away or yells at him enough.Nick is given the gun, somehow after the Clem incident, and he causes trouble again. Nick sees his uncle half eaten and is given the gun anyway.
Well one pete does take the gun off nick and two while stupid this isnt really bad writing, ben still had a gun in season 1 and he did way more stupid shit than nick
Then Carver shows up. He says that he is a neighbor that lives not far from there, implying that Luke and friends are so stupid that they escape from a prison and live in the first house that they see.
Carver tracked the group and they were on edge the whole time, they were hardly chilling in the cabin, the whole reason they threw clementine in the shed is because of carver
There are walkers and no one helps me and Luke, or should I say me as Luke is useless.
This does identify the main problem I have with the writing in season 2 which is that clementine is treated like and adult and given WAY to much to do. However Lee was also given the majority of the work and you could argue it would be impossible to avoid this
We meet Matthew and he is nice and kind, then Nick runs up and aims the gun with Clem and Luke in the middle. Now Matthew could have thought that this was an ambush and either shot or killed Luke or Clem. Or we could have been killed by crossfire. He shoots Matthew and the gun is given back to Nick. What the heck ? Then the group suggests that we take his supplies anyway, I guess they are OK with grave robbing.
I think the bridge scene was badly done as a whole, however the response to Nick was fine, the group doesnt trust him luke and carlos tak about him and alvin talks to clementine about it
Near a mountain, any walkers would have heard that gunshot for miles, oh but 3 minutes later the group wants to sit down.
Rebeccas pregnant and needs to rest, the group notices the wakers coming I dont see how any of this is bad writing
Then we go up to the lodge and meet Kenny again, Walter, and Sarita. From the get go, Luke and friends are rude to them and say, drop your guns first on the bench. OK first off Clementine has just announced that she knows Kenny so this group is good. There is no reason to hold guns when you are a guest in a house of people that Clem knows.
Your saying that someone being wary around total strangers is bad writing? Really? I think the problem here is they brought kenny back WAY too early, by this point you should have bonded with the cabin group but the game gives you no time or incentive to do this.
Next we meet Sarita and Walter, which are amazing characters. They are way nicer than Luke and friends and are also more interesting.
Sarita and Walter are pretty bland and boring characters to me really, which is why they never really amount to anything more than red shirt fodder. Anyway none of this is bad writing
Next Rebecca, Alvin, and Carlos are seen upstairs whispering about the possibility of Carver showing up. They should have told Kenny's group that they can watch Clementine as people are chasing them and they don't want to put them in danger. They tell Clem to spy for them, what cowards ? Luke even acts like one when hiding lol. Or they could have established a trap system ambush on the bridge.
Yeah this was stupid, again they were expecting way too much of people in terms of the cabin group
Then in the compound Bonnie acts like a good friend after it was her fault that we got taken.
How the heck is this bad writing, it would be bad writing if clementine suddenly forgave bonnie but she doesnt the game pretty much gives you all negative options to talk to her. Bonnie honestly is one of the better written characters of the season , shes really unlikable but well written. Shes trying to be a good person but failing.
Lol, seriously this was bad writing all around and that is because Kirkman wasn't on board for this season.
What the heck? Kirkmans a decent writer but hes not that great
The characters were bad and I wanted to get to know Walter and Matthew longer. Luke and friends are cowards for constantly running and refusing to tell Kenny about the people and putting them in danger. You see in this season, people like Luke and Bonnie get upset by what you do, yet who cares ? Bonnie had her chance to warn us and chickened out. She was stupid in 400 Days anyway.
And this is 100% opinion and nothing to do with the writing at all
Honestly this comes across as someone ranting about not liking the story rather than any real criticism of the writing, not to mention you could easily draft one of these for season 1 too.
It seems to me...season 2 had a great start....but lost it's focus. Kenny should not have come back....It diminished his hero exits in seas… moreon one. The 400 days group...what a missed opportunity....Clementine should have run afoul of Nate....the rest of the 400 group got relegated to cameos...lame. Dunno what the original script was...but something tells me some good ideas got dropped due to politics.
^ Lol. My main problem is with people defending the story like fanboys, thanks for agreeing with some of my points. It's more than an opinion as I broke everything down for a review as a critic. The cabin group should have trusted Clementine as she knew Kenny and if Carlos is a doctor and can't tell the difference between a human mouth and a dog mouth, then maybe he should get a new career lol.
^ Lol. My main problem is with people defending the story like fanboys, thanks for agreeing with some of my points. It's more than an opinio… moren as I broke everything down for a review as a critic. The cabin group should have trusted Clementine as she knew Kenny and if Carlos is a doctor and can't tell the difference between a human mouth and a dog mouth, then maybe he should get a new career lol.
I enjoyed 2 more but both had solid writing with a few questionable elements (Rebecca's turn of disposition, "I got lucky", clem can now operate a wind turbine)
Both of which occuring in Episode 2, ironically enough.
Strongest: tied between 1 and 2. I enjoyed 2 more but both had solid writing with a few questionable elements (Rebecca's turn of disposition… more, "I got lucky", clem can now operate a wind turbine)
Weakest: 4. Always 4. The only thing I liked about 4 was Bonnie and Mike's bit at the museum (doesn't matter anyways), and Arvo's potential as a complex character (also didn't matter).
Well yeah, but Rebecca's turn of disposition is still established in episode 1 as completely against Clem, with no hint of a smooth transition to almost suddenly being one of Clem's allies without proper foreshadowing, development, or resolution to the whole "whose baby is it" blackmail Clem can pull.
I enjoyed 2 more but both had solid writing with a few questionable elements (Rebecca's turn of disposition, "I got lucky", clem can now operate a wind turbine)
Both of which occuring in Episode 2, ironically enough.
The cabin group should have trusted Clementine as she knew Kenny
I take it you mean they should have trusted kenny because of clementine? Well maybe so but its perfect;y resonable they didnt, at least not immediatly. Kenny doesnt really seem to trust luke and co either.
if Carlos is a doctor and can't tell the difference between a human mouth and a dog mouth
Look being totally honest with this, clementines story sounds like absolute shit, she got bit by a dog over two years into the apocalypse where its much more likely one of the walking corpses that are everywhere bit her, its not surprising everyone thinks its a walker bite. Im not surprised they wernt keen to believe her. Carlos doesn't go "shes definitely bit by a person get rid of her" he and the rest are cautious about wasting supplies on a random person who is likely lying, so they do the logical thing and make her wait till morning, selfish maybe but thats not bad writing particularly for a group two years into a disaster like this. Also looking at the situation 100% fact if something bites your ram and rags it around like that its pretty hard to tell what did it anyway.
^ Lol. My main problem is with people defending the story like fanboys, thanks for agreeing with some of my points. It's more than an opinio… moren as I broke everything down for a review as a critic. The cabin group should have trusted Clementine as she knew Kenny and if Carlos is a doctor and can't tell the difference between a human mouth and a dog mouth, then maybe he should get a new career lol.
I dont think the writing in season 2 was that great and preffered season 1 in that respect however I dont agree with most of your reasons, t… morehere not really bad writing, more you just didnt like it
My friend and I love well written literature and we both have made notes on Shawshank Redemption, The Godfather, Casino, Pulp Fiction, etc. We both love when art has a good story. I find that we both yell at the TV when we play season 2.
Kinda irrelevant
First off the deaths of Omid and Christa were rushed. We barely had any time to bond with them as it was in season 1. The death of Pete, which he had potential, was also rushed. I really wanted to see what his opinions were on Kenny.
I think they were too, however omid and christa really just seem like an excuse to show how clementine survived for two years, thats more or less the only reason they exsist. And to stop people asking about them like Kenny they killed them of… [view original content]
Well yeah, but Rebecca's turn of disposition is still established in episode 1 as completely against Clem, with no hint of a smooth transiti… moreon to almost suddenly being one of Clem's allies without proper foreshadowing, development, or resolution to the whole "whose baby is it" blackmail Clem can pull.
Look being totally honest with this, clementines story sounds like absolute shit, she got bit by a dog over two years into the apocalypse where its much more likely one of the walking corpses that are everywhere bit her, its not surprising everyone thinks its a walker bite. Im not surprised they wernt keen to believe her. Carlos doesn't go "shes definitely bit by a person get rid of her" he and the rest are cautious about wasting supplies on a random person who is likely lying, so they do the logical thing and make her wait till morning, selfish maybe but thats not bad writing particularly for a group two years into a disaster like this. Also looking at the situation 100% fact if something bites your ram and rags it around like that its pretty hard to tell what did it anyway.
What does this have to do with the quote you answered? he said Carlos can't tell the difference between Human mouth and Dog mouth which he's right about it.
^ Lol
......
The cabin group should have trusted Clementine as she knew Kenny
I take it you mean they should have trus… moreted kenny because of clementine? Well maybe so but its perfect;y resonable they didnt, at least not immediatly. Kenny doesnt really seem to trust luke and co either.
if Carlos is a doctor and can't tell the difference between a human mouth and a dog mouth
Look being totally honest with this, clementines story sounds like absolute shit, she got bit by a dog over two years into the apocalypse where its much more likely one of the walking corpses that are everywhere bit her, its not surprising everyone thinks its a walker bite. Im not surprised they wernt keen to believe her. Carlos doesn't go "shes definitely bit by a person get rid of her" he and the rest are cautious about wasting supplies on a random person who is likely lying, so they do the logical thing and make her wait till morning, se… [view original content]
Following up on my comments about how black and white the Morality Scale is in those final three episodes this Season in particular, let's talk about one the more "popular" victims: Arvo.
Arvo was casted as the Disc Two/Interim Villain during the breather period after dealing with Carver. The level of threat he posed to the group was very different from that of Bill's: whereas Carver was major, insufferable, forceful, magnificent, and an absolute hate sink, Arvo was incidental, kindly, submissive, ineffectual, and a borderline designated villain. What I mean when I say that Arvo is a Designated Villain is that he was more forced into the role than he should have been. If we were to look at it from a neutral standpoint, neither side is truly bad: Clementine was just looking for a place for Rebecca to have her baby, Arvo was just looking for a place to stash some medicine for Natasha, both happened to pick the same spot by coincidence and met under uneasy circumstances. When she suddenly revealed herself, he understandably drew his gun in self-defense, though it's obvious from his shaking hand and nervous expression that he's just afraid of being attacked and doesn't actually want to shoot anyone, even though said attacker is a little girl he had no way of knowing was a badass and (determinate) sociopath. The two can have a relatively civil conversation and attempt to part on decent terms, when Jane, a third party who happened to be tagging along with Clementine, suddenly jumps him from behind and holds him at gunpoint while ordering Clementine to search his bag. Our two ‘heroes’ have left him defenseless and could determinately outright steal the key to his sister’s continued survival for the sake of helping 38% of their group temporarily feel a little better. You don’t really get to feel justified in doing something to hurt him considering, first play-through or in hindsight, you wronged him first. Jane, who still actually had a conscious, believe it or not, even becomes disgusted with herself for threatening what she rightfully considers some stupid kid after the fact. While Clementine's take on what to do with his medicine is ultimately her choice to make, Arvo now has a reason to be angry with the two: they took his only defense, stuck him up with it, and then attempted(or succeeded) to steal his stash of medicine, in direct spite of the fact that his sister needs it if she's going to had a fair chance at survival. So, whether with the bag or without, Arvo is aggressively threatened by Jane at gunpoint before being sent on his way back home, where he no doubt had to tell Natasha what happened to him, sparking their later ambush of the Howe's Ski Cabin Group because of Clementine's presence.
Arvo and his group play the compelling role of the villains who only antagonized the heroes because one of their numbers decided to rob one of them with little regard for their well-being in favor of their own. I consider Arvo at the very least to be Lawful Neutral(see the character alignment thread if you haven't already): regardless of the fact that Buricko seemed to be the ringleader, Vitali is definitely a psycho, and Natasha can at the very least act intimidating, Arvo's stance on robbing the group is always one of reluctance. He is definitely angry with being stuck up and threatened by Jane and takes some false-amusement(best way I could describe that weird smile) in getting even if you stole the bag, but he always has an expression suggesting that he doesn't actually approve of robbing people. However, he still goes along with it on Buricko's orders, even taking a moment to express regret that he and Clementine didn't meet under better circumstances beforehand if you didn't rob him, presumably because, kind or not, Clementine still technically helped grab him. An eye for an eye, mate! Arvo is at best a completely neutral party who only overreacted due to things that were done to him first or at worse an ineffectual sympathetic villain who would've liked to be friends with Clementine if she was kind to him but was dragged down into being her enemy due to the actions of Jane. Unfortunately for him, Arvo definitely seemed to be the type of person who takes orders and does them reluctantly if he has a small concern. And its not like he's in any shape to refuse, considering Buricko is built, Vitali is a psycho, and Kenny is a little bit of both with a helping of good nature. He was in the wrong place at the wrong time, got jumped by a terrible person, was encouraged/pressured to seek payback, and it all went downhill from there. Arvo should've acted differently; Jane should've acted differently; Everyone should've acted differently. . No wonder Mike and Bonnie take pity on him: this guy was a dumber, more pitiful two-bit goon than they were (among other things…)! The short of it is, he got unlucky. Real unlucky.
Another problem with Arvo was that the jump between gray bystander to black gunman is just accepted like the gospel truth by the story's undertones rather than gradually developed through actual villainy. He was shoehorned into being a follow-up to Carver, a one-note doomsday villain, rather than being developed into the grey character he was set up to be. Thus, they have opposite problems: Carver was such a villain without being much of a character and Arvo was so much of a character waiting to be developed that his sudden treatment of a villain felt more than a little unwarranted for a while. Arvo fails as a villain where Carver succeeds because he lacks the ambition, the malice, and the misdeeds necessary to antagonize people and enjoy doing so for his grand design; he's just some handicapped guy who risked himself trying to keep his older sister alive and failed. Honestly, there needed to be a better reason to be against Arvo himself besides "because Kenny said so." (Also, it does genuinely bother me that Kenny is the one to finish off all three of Arvo’s friends, but that's a subject for another time.) Whether intentional or not, Clementine had a hand in ruining his life--his self-defense, his sick sister, his (admittedly brutish) leader, his group, his unfinished house, his rationed food, his brokedown truck--all compromised because we met under such nebulous circumstances. And at what cost? Luke's leg, Kenny's patience, Bonnie's trust, and a shoulder in the bullet? ...Okay, that last one was actually kinda annoying, but the point being Clementine did more to hurt this guy in seconds than he ever did to hurt her in days. His only villainous moments were sticking up the entire group and shooting Clementine. However, both have context-sensitive information that make it hard to classify him as a full-out villain: he clearly wasn't fine with the idea of robbing the group but Buricko and Natasha tell him to do it anyway and encourage him to stand his ground, respectively; he shoots Clementine after seeing her kill his sister while she was seemingly trying to crawl to safety, enduring days of being abused while being held prisoner by Kenny, and when she most likely throws a wrench in Mike's plan, so it was more out of paranoia and revenge than any indulgent evil. His lack of adequate villainy is also reinforced by the fact that most of the bad things that happen after the first encounter with him probably would've happened anyway. Remember, Rebecca was gonna die regardless of Arvo showing up (and may have been dead before the moment he noticed the baby), Luke gets his limp when Vitali shot him because of Kenny and/or Clementine (who not only got him exposed out in the open, but also started the gunfight by firing the first shot in the first place), and Kenny was cracked ever since Carver beat his eye to mush or possibly even before Season 1 was over. And need I repeat for the umpteenth time that Jane caused nearly every bad thing that has and will happen in this episode when she provoked Arvo by stealing from him in the first place; even at Clementine’s nicest, he clearly saw robbing the group, who he probably assumed were bandits, as the “eye for an eye” mentality and he still isn’t comfortable with it.
Of course, his few villainous actions, namely him shooting Clementine made him popular as a villain in most people's minds, so its either a matter of technicalities vs abstract or just blown smoke I guess. That one moral event horizon at the end cements him as an enemy to Clementine but not really a full time villain. That'd be like calling Kenny a villain for going off at Clementine for her part in Sarita's death, ironically enough. Here's Arvo's problem in this setup: his name is not Clementine, the main character. You see, if the tables were turned here and Arvo was the main character or even a major one, he would technically be just as in the right as Clementine would: if he had approached Clementine while her back was turned, Buricko attacked her despite Arvo's attempts to simply reason with her, he got to make the call over whether they steal from her or not(and determinately made the same choice she did), and then Clementine went to fetch her group with Jane ordering her to rob his entire group for what Buricko did despite her misgivings about it, would'nt it be basically the same? Assuming it (somehow) ended with similar results with her as Vitali's prisoner with Arvo having just as little a say in how he treats her as she does with Kenny, how would it be any different (aside from the gender and obvious age difference) between the two? It's the same basic conflict: One acted against the other, the other reacted against the one, and then it just spiraled from there with the other growing resentful over what the one helped kick-start by association.
[I'm sorry about the length but I just didn't have the drive to edit it down.]
I don't remember anyone from Carver's group saying what type of doctor Carlos was before the outbreak. Everyone assumes he was a general practicioner, but what if he was like an eye doctor or something specialised? Maybe he didn't deal with wounds much. The cabin and the ski resort were shelters regardless of proximity to Carver. Maybe Rebecca could not go any further without resting. Do we know Bonnie knew the other people were there or did Carver decide to rob the place? She only sees Kenny, Clem, and Walter that we know of.
Do we know Bonnie knew the other people were there or did Carver decide to rob the place? She only sees Kenny, Clem, and Walter that we know of.
It seems pretty clear that it was Carver's idea to hold the entire place up. While I believe Bonnie did see the Cabin Group were in there considering she was peaking through the window for quite a bit before Walter approaches her, she likely assumed they were only gonna capture them and bring them home without any incident. Also, she would have known that they were looking for the Cabin Group since she knew they were planning to escape beforehand and that was the reason Carver had them out there in the first place.
I don't remember anyone from Carver's group saying what type of doctor Carlos was before the outbreak. Everyone assumes he was a general pra… morecticioner, but what if he was like an eye doctor or something specialised? Maybe he didn't deal with wounds much. The cabin and the ski resort were shelters regardless of proximity to Carver. Maybe Rebecca could not go any further without resting. Do we know Bonnie knew the other people were there or did Carver decide to rob the place? She only sees Kenny, Clem, and Walter that we know of.
Comments
Oh okay I was confused on your phrasing. But you can have an ending where all Kenny says is "Do it" before Clementine shoots him so. And like I said, no bias. For someone sticking around for two seasons OF COURSE they'd wrap his character up with a speech like that anyone would bias or not because that's just basic development. Jane not getting one is just them saying how little there would be to say if she did.
Yeah, I mentioned in my original post that I excluded the "shoot Kenny right after killing Jane" ending from his best endings.
And I mean, the fact that they brought him back for a major part of season 2 I think is in itself bias. The only other character that shares as much screen time is Clem, which is understandable as she is the heart of season 1 and the protagonist of season 2. Kenny was a supporting character for season 1, and if he absolutely have had to have been brought back to season 2 he should have stayed a supporting character. Instead he took up so much of the focus from episode 3-5 that he pretty much rivaled Clem for character development (while repeating a similar arc from the first season). I definitely thought it made the story too much about him. Nearly every discussion revolved around him, good or bad. That is bias.
It's not bias they always planned on bringing Kenny back. More as a closure for Lee for Clementine and the viewers, not for Kenny.
Well Kirkman is back for season 3 so I have confidence in 3. Didn't he also write Miichonne ?
Bringing Kenny back and giving the player closure is not the issue, it was making the story revolve around him. It felt as though he was the only thing moving the story forward, and that took too much power away from Clementine to tell her story. I'm still standing by that the writers were too biased with their effort in writing Kenny into the story. Compared to basically every other character (even compared to those that should have gotten a great focus for development like Sarah and Luke) the complexity of his character is treated with the most respect. The writers put care into his story, and his death or farewell, which is more than I can say for all other cast members of the season. In short, Kenny's importance overshadowed everyone else.
Thank you!
I've stated before that I'm positively neutral when it comes to Kenny, but these set of sentences are exactly what has been changing my mind for a short while now.
Early "preview" before I eventually post my thoughts.
EDIT: Question: Do you think I should post everything once it's all finished or should I split them by the episode for spatial reasons?
Kirkman wasn't involved in the writing for the Michonne miniseries. However, the guy that wrote the novel series, Jay Bonansinga, was credited as a story consultant for Michonne.
Kirkman's involvement in the game as a whole has been minimal. Outside of Telltale running ideas past him, he isn't involved too heavily in the development. As far as I can tell, I don't think he's even written anything for the series, including S1.
I definitely agree with Rig that 400 Days should have been the main group instead of Luke, Jane, Mike, Carlos, and Nick. Vince, Wyatt, Shel, Becca, Talia, Bonnie, and the teenager all would have been better characters overall. I am OK with Rebecca as we needed her for AJ, yet that's it. I think that Pete and Kenny would have been great friends and I wanted Matthew and Walter to have played major roles. From a story point of view, Clem siding with Jane didn't make sense. Clem was taught by Lee that family is important and it's all we have left. Lee lost everything, except Clem, so he was the bridge to the story. Jane was the opposite and was about survival first. She didn't even try to help Sarah both times, I would have dropped off the ledge to help Sarah. I hope that 400 days cast returns for season 3, more developed.
Who?
No, Jane, and to a lesser Nick and Carlos could've worked fine. Though I'd say Carlos would need Sarah there with him. I personally didn't get into Nick but I'm sure others would wanna keep him. Luke and Mike are blatant examples of potential that went untapped, with Mike being the worst about that.
In fact, their such better characters that you got two of their names wrong.
And this is one reason why I think Jane would've worked. She's a complex and morally thought provoking character, it's just that she's so unlikable at times.
I'm fine with just Taavia, Becca, and maybe Shel, personally. Russell, Vince, and Wyatt and especially Eddie can stay missing, though.
Big, not Rig, lol. I haven't played 400 Days in a very long time (hence my spelling errors) as it is a reminder of the untapped potential of season 2. I personally liked all of the characters in 400 Days.
S'cool. As I'll eventually explain, I didn't know much about 400 Days outside of the fact that it involved the Cancer Survivors and went unspoilered about it until I finally played it back in June as a filler arc before Season 2.
Also, I'd like an outside opinion: Do you think I should post all of my thoughts(more like impressions) on Season 2 once it's all finished or should I split them by the episode for spatial reasons? I have Episode 1 and 2 typed up already, but Episode 3 has been a bit stagnant for a number reasons and I know Episode 5 and especially 4 might take a bit to edit down.
I would break it all down episode by episode.
Thanks, man! Pre-gameplay impressions coming up!
I agreed with everything you said, expect that Luke was a coward. There weren't many instances that hinted he was a coward, after all, he did try to stage an escape for those that had been kidnapped by Carver and brought to Howe's, and was hinted at having led the original escape as well.
I'm gonna make my first impressions as brief as possible because I was thinking about making a thread about that.
When I heard there was supposed to be a Season 2 after watching the SuperGamingBros. playthrough, I decided that I would actually play it when all five episodes were released. In the meantime, I would avoid spoilers until the time was right. The first set of "spoilers" I came across was promotional art for the game featuring Clementine, an older white dude, and a girl with glasses. The second batch of spoilers came through an unknown source I can't recall that implied that Omid had died and that a dog was involved at some point.The third, true set of spoilers came from TV Tropes' YMMV page, which had the following un-spoilered and possibly outdated info: Clementine is leading a group of refugees to safety and saving them from an evil settlement leader, there's a basebreaker in a creepy little girl named Sarah who seems fixated on Clementine being her friend, there is a villain named is Carver who is a complete monster with rape under his belt, a guy named Luke is the subject of a basebreaking debate against another character over whether its worse to be reckless or soft, there is a pregnant woman named Rebecca who is a scrappy due to being portrayed as a bitch, and Luke is also seen as a scrappy because he allegedly makes things harder on Clementine, going as far as to abandon the group when they are captured. The fourth set of spoilers also comes from TVTropes as well as Youtube: reading up on the character page for Season 1 characters had me discover that Kenny's profile picture depicts him as having a gray beard and an eyepatch, which a quick peak below revealed him to be alive due to his role in Season 2 as a mentor-figure for Clementine; the Youtube clip revolved around seeing someone in the school library watching a clip of her sitting and talking with an old woman with red hair. And the final set of spoilers involved a combination of the three, including a review in Game Informer magazine depicting her as apparently having a baby(wtf), a few spoilers on TV Tropes hinting that Clementine gets shot and that there is a Russian family in the game, some "fanart", and finally a model swap depict Ben as Kenny fighting Lilly as another character in the snow.
So, after several weeks of knowing the game was out as a disc collection alongside Season 1(which I had no interest in playing at the time), I finally bought both in either late May or early June of 2016, with the 400 Days DLC that supposedly focused on Vernon's group as a bonus. After completing Season 1 over the course of two weeks, I took a break to work up some hype and immersion before finally putting in the Season 2 disc one Monday(?) night.
Best Episode
Best: A House Divided(most balanced character focus, most interactive gameplay segments, lots of suspenseful moments)
All That Remains(great atmosphere, sense of survival, ambiguous character alignment)
No Going Back(dragged down by baggage, sudden cast whittling, plot device inklings, brillaint climax, alternate endings)
In Harm's Way(wasted setting, wasted characters, uneven character focus, set-up for later episodes, bare episode in general)
Worst: Amid The Ruins(inconsistent tone, most uneven character focus, useless deaths of wasted characters, hypocritical morals)
Favorite and Least Favorite Moment
Favorite Moment: The escape from Howe's Hardware(lots of suspense, character, and action)
Least Favorite Moment: Sarah's "canon" death(one of the only legitimate story screw-ups that I can't bring myself to forgive)
Best Character
Favorite Character: Sarah(Clementine's dopey yet endearing friend/admirer), Luke(Deconstruction of Hero Complex), Michelle(One scene wonder, Debatably the most complex antagonist if you don't count Jane/Kenny)
Least Favorite: Jane(one of the few characters I legitimately hate), Carver(Corny predictable villain, especially in Episode 3), Third Character(I apparently meant to include one at the time)
Episode 1 Impressions will be posted later.
I agree that Sarah's death was awful. That was the worst offender.
Oh, it will be so tempting to not just break out into a rant when I get to that part.
I keep saying I'll do a Sarah-centric topic since I first joined and started a discussion on the site just to get some of that stuff in one place, but I keep running into issues and constraints.
EDIT: Jumping Jack Flash!!! SIXTEEN PAGES OF UNASSORTED MATERIAL FOR THAT TOPIC!
Copied info from the Kenny! Topic, specifically a conversation with wdfan and Deltino Because I'm lazy and honestly think this belongs here where it'll be on topic. I tried my best to rearrange everything into a cohensive set of paragraphs but there's bound to be some mistakes, so if you notice certain sentences that feel out of order or say the same basic thing as another sentence, that is why! Also, there's a few edits I forgot to take into account. Sorry. :P
I came into this Season relatively blind outside of a few broad expectations and vague spoilers. The general premise was that Clementine helps a group of refugees escape the tyranny of an evil settlement leader and make their way to safety. While Kenny had more prominence than I assumed, episode 3 manage to stick with this arc despite missing out on several other opportunities. And then as soon as Jane is brought into the spotlight..., it's not immediate, but the Cabin Group almost gets completely forgotten by the end of the penultimate episode. That is a serious problem.
However, if the characters just weren't resonating with some people, that is a problem in and unto itself. Again, though, one would expect for the characters to grow and endear as the episodes progress; after all Season 1 Episode 2 was similarly paced and was also a contender for the best episode of the Season.
I'd expect the story to give some focus on other characters like Walter, Bonnie, Mike, or maybe Arvo at certain points, but the fact remains that a great story can contain multiple ones that we don't need to see the entirety of in order to appreciate them and can remember who the real stars of the show are.
For what it's worth, I thought Amid the Ruins took a respectable risk trying to continue the story without Carver being the active threat but what we got instead was a bit unbalanced in terms of execution.
For as much shit as people give it, I thought Amid the Ruins had something going by alternating focus between the characters, with Sarah, Kenny, and [the especially egregious] Jane getting top billing, but the problem there was that there was a little too much focus on them compared to the other characters in terms of the ratio. Which is why I consider Episode 2 to be the best of Season 2: it has overworld areas to explore, the amount of interaction is tops, and the character focus is surprisingly balanced even with Nick and Kenny getting the most emphasis.
Too bad he and Jane came at the cost of downplaying and eventually aborting pretty much everything the Season was supposed to be developing, including Clementine.
Call it retroactive backlash on my part(especially since I literally played through in June) but the drastic amount of effort those two have compared to everyone else is like 4:1.[I had to step away from the laptop for a bit and forgot my point, ] There should have been more effort into telling their story while also making sure the other characters got a chance to shine.
Reusing an old character should not come at the expense of developing a new set of relatively blank slates, especially if it causes your character focus roster to become so unbalanced in their favor that the protagonist themselves suffer for it.
At least Rebecca, Nick, and Sarah were definitely established with the intention to develop their storylines in mind, but the way they ended up being executed was mixed. I have yet to see anyone more than one person(zombiebonnie) say they legitimately liked Rebecca and she had the most complete(if a bit by the numbers) storyline of the three, Nick had a concretated effort put into integrating his story arc into Episode 2 before being drastically scaled back to having less screentime than Mike or Sarita in Episode 3 and then killed offscreen in Episode 4, and Sarah (in my potentially biased opinion) had the most balanced screentime for development before she was just moodwhiplashingly aborted without a proper conclusion to her arc, something I think even Nick managed to cobble together.
The reason I've been having a bitter feeling about Kenny lately IS basically because his addition and sudden promotion to the main roster felt like it was just a cover up for all the development that the Cabin Group(besides Rebecca and Sarah) wasn'tgonna get with "fanservice" and nostalgia. Unfortunately, it just made it more apparent by contrast: Why is Clementine, age eleven, spending so much time working with Kenny and Mike, two grown men, when she should realistically swap places with Nick on the women's team a little more often?
And this right here justifies Sarah and (to a lesser extent) Jane's presence on the main cast. As I've stated before, Sarah felt like the only member of the Cabin Group who had somewhere to go as a character by the time the Season wrapped up because of Clementine's connection to her, with the technical exception of Rebecca. ...You could argue there alot of places that were suggested by the story, but I'm gonna sidestep that topic for now. Jane on the other hand, was the inverse in that though you're likely meant to wonder where she'll go as well, it's her influence on Clementine that's the most important. I have my problems with her obviously, as my very first post in this community should indicate.
Unfortunately, Kenny's place in all this is a bit of a hotbutton topic to itself: following up on how he is and what he's been up to since Atlanta is an intriguing topic, but also served to be a spotlight stealing distraction. A lot of you absolutely love Kenny because you remember him from before as Lee, you got invested in his story as it progressed, and you were happy to know he would be there for Clementine with Lee gone. The problem with this should be obvious though: you remember him because of his connection to Lee, you were invested in the story that happened when you were there for him as Lee, and while him helping Clementine now is heartwarming, you kinda have to acknowledge that it's because of their memories of Lee. Clementine is NOT Lee and so that connection from before is skewed as a result and his inclusion on the character roster makes room for what is essentially a retelling of his story from Season 1, with some "fanservice" and nostalgia thrown in(as much as I did enjoy the latter, I'm sure there's someone out there who didn't). Which mind you, isn't really a bad thing in my books, except when it's done in a way that bogs down the story, rather than enhances it. When Kenny first appear, it was [not] a pleasant surprise and I was curious as to how he had survived his insistence on saving Ben and what sort of adventures he had been on with Sarita. Unfortunately, this isn't really that developed and neither is Sarita, who despite being a kind Indian woman whose efforts in rehabilitating Kenny and bonding with Sarah over a Christmas song of all things made her such a delightful new face as well as a stern combatant, is just barely not Katjaa, but might as well be for all we learn about her. Part of the reason why Episode 3 is objectively the weakest episode is because from literally the title screen, Kenny was constantly on screen photobombing and talking over the other characters before being involved in plot situations that another character(such as Sarita) probably should have been given. Take his walkietalkie smackdown from Carver and later crowbar test on him as an example: as much as I like these two scenes, they contribute to part of my problem with Carver since he had more of a personal connection with Kenny in these two scenes than Clementine did throughout the entire episode, despite the villain's attempts to convince us otherwise at the time. Another thing Amid the Ruins did right in my opinion was set Kenny aside so he could deal with his sense of deja vu and eventually morph into something that will help the story that was supposed to be being told for a while. And then Episode 5 did a so-so combination of the two that led the one kickass climax.
Mind you, I've stated numerous times that Kenny is a character I was positively neutral to: I'm happy enough when he's being helpful and when he's being a real asshole I wanna punch him in the face. So while he's far from my favorite character, it didn't bother me much at all to see all the pull he has, both in-universe and out. However, that has being gradually changing over these last few weeks as I've begun to notice that, rational or not, many of the problems I have with this season has his beard hair somewhere in the vicinity.
However, as much as I hate what a terrible person she turned out to be and the overabundance of screentime she was given, I'd be lying if I said Jane wasn't technically one of the saving graces of the Season once she got her steam goin. While I wasn't too keen on what a gimmick she was in her first episode, Amid the Ruins really went to [a little too much] effort to establish her as another character who could not only have meaningful interaction with Clementine but also one that could stand up on her own. The fact that they deliberately contrasted her with Sarah, the only other character who I thought actually held this title at that point in the story, was a stroke of genius that I realize is probably my true favorite moment in Season 2: just having these three chicks who are so different and yet so similar going at it in an abandoned trailer park! I was really looking forward to seeing the repercussions a scene like this would have in the future, but alas, Sarah was dropped like a bad habit and Jane was tainted for the rest of the Season for me. Episode 5 not only made this baggage worse, but from that point on, Jane(though to not as extreme a degree as Arvo) felt like she was being written specifically to be a character who would come into conflict with Kenny so we can have him get the huge climax, not Clementine. Despite the problems I have with this, I was still able to enjoy their climax because both had been established as individuals before their rivalry was built up(or flat out came out of nowhere, for the record) and the implications siding with one or the other or even neither does make you wonder how Season 3 is gonna follow it up. Though I'm not really looking forward to that, but that's a discussion for another day.
As I believe Deltino explained to me, Season 1 had a clear story/premise that it followed to the end, despite some brief railroading here and there.
Season 2, on the other hand, seemed a little too preoccupied about hard lessons/themes/morals(Clementine the Supposed Brute, Liabilities, Wellington) and fanservice(Kenny, Edgy!Clementine, Jane(debatable)) to stick to its guns and tell the story it was supposed to be(Nick's Redeption, Sarah's Corruption, Arvo's Lament).
You mean for Season 3?
Okay, for the sake of having an actual discussion of the official game:
What is your strongest and weakest episode of Season 2?
2
3
When did Luke say we should listen to Carver?
Vitali and Buricko were the ones doing the mocking, not Arvo, whom they also mocked.
How is Mike not shooting Arvo, the sole surviving kid of another group who he tried to protect from Kenny's rage, when he didn't even have a gun not being a man? Goodness, I guess Bonnie had a point after all!
About Jane...no complaints! It might be a little more one-sided, but I got nothing to say.
I just thought of another problem with Season 2 compared to Season 1: The Morality Scale! It's way off!
The morality was too black and white in those final three episodes in particualar: Alvin, Carlos, Carver, Luke, Sarah, and Arvo are all victims of this.
The trio of "setup, execution, and payoff" was a major issue with the Season in general.
In the first two episodes, numerous plot points centered around each member of the Cabin Group(including Luke) and their histories with Carver are set up but starting with Episode 3, a lot of things set up with each character are forgotten. This causes quite a few characters, such as Carlos and Alvin, to not have much character focus and other characters, like Luke and especially Carver, are simplified down to black and white morality. Other plots that are set up but barely followed up on are Nick's Redemption, Kenny and Sarita, Mike, Liabilities, and Sarah's Corruption.
Starting strong in the third episode, there is a notable increase in just stuff happening, with either little to no build-up, disproportionate payoff, or in this case, rushed or downright sloppy execution. Rebecca being vindicatively suspicious of Clementine at first before becoming very kind and tender towards her has little to no transition for it. The murder of Reggie is key example of how poor the pacing in Episode 3 in paricular is, since he's introduced and then killed off within three scenes within much time to get to know him. Clementine the Supposed Brute is compared as being alike to Carver without much interaction between the two or substantial evidence before or after, making it a poorly utilized cliche. Sarah's depression isn't given much focus pass the walk back and a few optional interactions, though the less said about the aftermath, the better. And Arvo's Lament, while admittedly an interesting story concept that better utilized grey and gray morality when compared to Carver, also feels like there's a step missing in his character development.
And finally, in the later episodes especially, we get a noticeable issue with proper payoff to significant events, which results in aborted arcs and unrevealed information. George, The Murder of Nick, Carver's history with the Cabin Group, the Swamping of Howe's Hardware, the Russian Ambush, and Sarah in particular are the most blatant examples of this. But to be honest, what is definitely the most egregious example of this is Clementine herself, by which I mean very little of what she experiences in this story has any lasting impact or meaningful consequences on her character. This includes, but is not limited to, her remorse concerning the death of Omid, her feelings of coldness brought on by her emotional and physical separation from Christ, her friendship and mentoring relationship with Sarah, her confidant and encouraging role towards Nick, her sibling like partnership with Luke, her support of Rebecca concerning her stress over her family, her chance at closure on the topic of Christa and Omid, her animosity with the likes of Carver and Troy, and her guilt over ruining the life of Arvo. Admittedly, some of this basically comes down to her being the playable character with various determinate options towards certain things but this was a problem that the previous protagonist Lee did not have.
Strongest: tied between 1 and 2. I enjoyed 2 more but both had solid writing with a few questionable elements (Rebecca's turn of disposition, "I got lucky", clem can now operate a wind turbine)
Weakest: 4. Always 4. The only thing I liked about 4 was Bonnie and Mike's bit at the museum (doesn't matter anyways), and Arvo's potential as a complex character (also didn't matter).
Strongest: tied between 1 and 2. I enjoyed 2 more but both had solid writing with a few questionable elements (Rebecca's turn of disposition, "I got lucky", clem can now operate a wind turbine)
Weakest: 4. Always 4. The only thing I liked about 4 was Bonnie and Mike's bit at the museum (doesn't matter anyways), and Arvo's potential as a complex character (also didn't matter).
I dont think the writing in season 2 was that great and preffered season 1 in that respect however I dont agree with most of your reasons, there not really bad writing, more you just didnt like it
Kinda irrelevant
I think they were too, however omid and christa really just seem like an excuse to show how clementine survived for two years, thats more or less the only reason they exsist. And to stop people asking about them like Kenny they killed them off. The cabin group were all over the place writing wise however petes quick death wasnt that bad, I wish his death had been better however it did serve to remind clementine again about lee and set nick of on whatever his arc was supposed to be initially. I also kind of get what they were trying to do, put clementine with a group she didnt really like but Kenny and other preferable characters meant this kind of backfired.
None of this is bad writing, its good writing really, I dont see why anyone would believe clementine had been bit by a dog. The logical thing that would have bit her is a walker. They acted smart with what they did if a bit rushed. The only thing I think is damaging from this is that they potrayed the cabin group a bit too negatively to begin with, particularly rebecca.
Sorry but this paragraph is all over the place, i'll try to break it down
Well one pete does take the gun off nick and two while stupid this isnt really bad writing, ben still had a gun in season 1 and he did way more stupid shit than nick
Carver tracked the group and they were on edge the whole time, they were hardly chilling in the cabin, the whole reason they threw clementine in the shed is because of carver
This does identify the main problem I have with the writing in season 2 which is that clementine is treated like and adult and given WAY to much to do. However Lee was also given the majority of the work and you could argue it would be impossible to avoid this
I think the bridge scene was badly done as a whole, however the response to Nick was fine, the group doesnt trust him luke and carlos tak about him and alvin talks to clementine about it
Rebeccas pregnant and needs to rest, the group notices the wakers coming I dont see how any of this is bad writing
Your saying that someone being wary around total strangers is bad writing? Really? I think the problem here is they brought kenny back WAY too early, by this point you should have bonded with the cabin group but the game gives you no time or incentive to do this.
Sarita and Walter are pretty bland and boring characters to me really, which is why they never really amount to anything more than red shirt fodder. Anyway none of this is bad writing
Yeah this was stupid, again they were expecting way too much of people in terms of the cabin group
How the heck is this bad writing, it would be bad writing if clementine suddenly forgave bonnie but she doesnt the game pretty much gives you all negative options to talk to her. Bonnie honestly is one of the better written characters of the season , shes really unlikable but well written. Shes trying to be a good person but failing.
What the heck? Kirkmans a decent writer but hes not that great
And this is 100% opinion and nothing to do with the writing at all
Honestly this comes across as someone ranting about not liking the story rather than any real criticism of the writing, not to mention you could easily draft one of these for season 1 too.
May I ask, what is it about the 400 Days character, but Nate in particular that makes you go as far as to say we should have seen them?
^ Lol. My main problem is with people defending the story like fanboys, thanks for agreeing with some of my points. It's more than an opinion as I broke everything down for a review as a critic. The cabin group should have trusted Clementine as she knew Kenny and if Carlos is a doctor and can't tell the difference between a human mouth and a dog mouth, then maybe he should get a new career lol.
Not an actual response to your comment, but the reply button is there for a reason.
Both of which occuring in Episode 2, ironically enough.
Well yeah, but Rebecca's turn of disposition is still established in episode 1 as completely against Clem, with no hint of a smooth transition to almost suddenly being one of Clem's allies without proper foreshadowing, development, or resolution to the whole "whose baby is it" blackmail Clem can pull.
......
I take it you mean they should have trusted kenny because of clementine? Well maybe so but its perfect;y resonable they didnt, at least not immediatly. Kenny doesnt really seem to trust luke and co either.
Look being totally honest with this, clementines story sounds like absolute shit, she got bit by a dog over two years into the apocalypse where its much more likely one of the walking corpses that are everywhere bit her, its not surprising everyone thinks its a walker bite. Im not surprised they wernt keen to believe her. Carlos doesn't go "shes definitely bit by a person get rid of her" he and the rest are cautious about wasting supplies on a random person who is likely lying, so they do the logical thing and make her wait till morning, selfish maybe but thats not bad writing particularly for a group two years into a disaster like this. Also looking at the situation 100% fact if something bites your ram and rags it around like that its pretty hard to tell what did it anyway.
....
Extra kudos for you!
I know. I was just pointing out how odd it is that our favorite episode has such issues in it.
On Rebecca, that was a legitimate problem that couldn't just be ignored, unlike Kenny returning or the windmill.
What does this have to do with the quote you answered? he said Carlos can't tell the difference between Human mouth and Dog mouth which he's right about it.
Following up on my comments about how black and white the Morality Scale is in those final three episodes this Season in particular, let's talk about one the more "popular" victims: Arvo.
Arvo was casted as the Disc Two/Interim Villain during the breather period after dealing with Carver. The level of threat he posed to the group was very different from that of Bill's: whereas Carver was major, insufferable, forceful, magnificent, and an absolute hate sink, Arvo was incidental, kindly, submissive, ineffectual, and a borderline designated villain. What I mean when I say that Arvo is a Designated Villain is that he was more forced into the role than he should have been. If we were to look at it from a neutral standpoint, neither side is truly bad: Clementine was just looking for a place for Rebecca to have her baby, Arvo was just looking for a place to stash some medicine for Natasha, both happened to pick the same spot by coincidence and met under uneasy circumstances. When she suddenly revealed herself, he understandably drew his gun in self-defense, though it's obvious from his shaking hand and nervous expression that he's just afraid of being attacked and doesn't actually want to shoot anyone, even though said attacker is a little girl he had no way of knowing was a badass and (determinate) sociopath. The two can have a relatively civil conversation and attempt to part on decent terms, when Jane, a third party who happened to be tagging along with Clementine, suddenly jumps him from behind and holds him at gunpoint while ordering Clementine to search his bag. Our two ‘heroes’ have left him defenseless and could determinately outright steal the key to his sister’s continued survival for the sake of helping 38% of their group temporarily feel a little better. You don’t really get to feel justified in doing something to hurt him considering, first play-through or in hindsight, you wronged him first. Jane, who still actually had a conscious, believe it or not, even becomes disgusted with herself for threatening what she rightfully considers some stupid kid after the fact. While Clementine's take on what to do with his medicine is ultimately her choice to make, Arvo now has a reason to be angry with the two: they took his only defense, stuck him up with it, and then attempted(or succeeded) to steal his stash of medicine, in direct spite of the fact that his sister needs it if she's going to had a fair chance at survival. So, whether with the bag or without, Arvo is aggressively threatened by Jane at gunpoint before being sent on his way back home, where he no doubt had to tell Natasha what happened to him, sparking their later ambush of the Howe's Ski Cabin Group because of Clementine's presence.
Arvo and his group play the compelling role of the villains who only antagonized the heroes because one of their numbers decided to rob one of them with little regard for their well-being in favor of their own. I consider Arvo at the very least to be Lawful Neutral(see the character alignment thread if you haven't already): regardless of the fact that Buricko seemed to be the ringleader, Vitali is definitely a psycho, and Natasha can at the very least act intimidating, Arvo's stance on robbing the group is always one of reluctance. He is definitely angry with being stuck up and threatened by Jane and takes some false-amusement(best way I could describe that weird smile) in getting even if you stole the bag, but he always has an expression suggesting that he doesn't actually approve of robbing people. However, he still goes along with it on Buricko's orders, even taking a moment to express regret that he and Clementine didn't meet under better circumstances beforehand if you didn't rob him, presumably because, kind or not, Clementine still technically helped grab him. An eye for an eye, mate! Arvo is at best a completely neutral party who only overreacted due to things that were done to him first or at worse an ineffectual sympathetic villain who would've liked to be friends with Clementine if she was kind to him but was dragged down into being her enemy due to the actions of Jane. Unfortunately for him, Arvo definitely seemed to be the type of person who takes orders and does them reluctantly if he has a small concern. And its not like he's in any shape to refuse, considering Buricko is built, Vitali is a psycho, and Kenny is a little bit of both with a helping of good nature. He was in the wrong place at the wrong time, got jumped by a terrible person, was encouraged/pressured to seek payback, and it all went downhill from there. Arvo should've acted differently; Jane should've acted differently; Everyone should've acted differently. . No wonder Mike and Bonnie take pity on him: this guy was a dumber, more pitiful two-bit goon than they were (among other things…)! The short of it is, he got unlucky. Real unlucky.
Another problem with Arvo was that the jump between gray bystander to black gunman is just accepted like the gospel truth by the story's undertones rather than gradually developed through actual villainy. He was shoehorned into being a follow-up to Carver, a one-note doomsday villain, rather than being developed into the grey character he was set up to be. Thus, they have opposite problems: Carver was such a villain without being much of a character and Arvo was so much of a character waiting to be developed that his sudden treatment of a villain felt more than a little unwarranted for a while. Arvo fails as a villain where Carver succeeds because he lacks the ambition, the malice, and the misdeeds necessary to antagonize people and enjoy doing so for his grand design; he's just some handicapped guy who risked himself trying to keep his older sister alive and failed. Honestly, there needed to be a better reason to be against Arvo himself besides "because Kenny said so." (Also, it does genuinely bother me that Kenny is the one to finish off all three of Arvo’s friends, but that's a subject for another time.) Whether intentional or not, Clementine had a hand in ruining his life--his self-defense, his sick sister, his (admittedly brutish) leader, his group, his unfinished house, his rationed food, his brokedown truck--all compromised because we met under such nebulous circumstances. And at what cost? Luke's leg, Kenny's patience, Bonnie's trust, and a shoulder in the bullet? ...Okay, that last one was actually kinda annoying, but the point being Clementine did more to hurt this guy in seconds than he ever did to hurt her in days. His only villainous moments were sticking up the entire group and shooting Clementine. However, both have context-sensitive information that make it hard to classify him as a full-out villain: he clearly wasn't fine with the idea of robbing the group but Buricko and Natasha tell him to do it anyway and encourage him to stand his ground, respectively; he shoots Clementine after seeing her kill his sister while she was seemingly trying to crawl to safety, enduring days of being abused while being held prisoner by Kenny, and when she most likely throws a wrench in Mike's plan, so it was more out of paranoia and revenge than any indulgent evil. His lack of adequate villainy is also reinforced by the fact that most of the bad things that happen after the first encounter with him probably would've happened anyway. Remember, Rebecca was gonna die regardless of Arvo showing up (and may have been dead before the moment he noticed the baby), Luke gets his limp when Vitali shot him because of Kenny and/or Clementine (who not only got him exposed out in the open, but also started the gunfight by firing the first shot in the first place), and Kenny was cracked ever since Carver beat his eye to mush or possibly even before Season 1 was over. And need I repeat for the umpteenth time that Jane caused nearly every bad thing that has and will happen in this episode when she provoked Arvo by stealing from him in the first place; even at Clementine’s nicest, he clearly saw robbing the group, who he probably assumed were bandits, as the “eye for an eye” mentality and he still isn’t comfortable with it.
Of course, his few villainous actions, namely him shooting Clementine made him popular as a villain in most people's minds, so its either a matter of technicalities vs abstract or just blown smoke I guess. That one moral event horizon at the end cements him as an enemy to Clementine but not really a full time villain. That'd be like calling Kenny a villain for going off at Clementine for her part in Sarita's death, ironically enough. Here's Arvo's problem in this setup: his name is not Clementine, the main character. You see, if the tables were turned here and Arvo was the main character or even a major one, he would technically be just as in the right as Clementine would: if he had approached Clementine while her back was turned, Buricko attacked her despite Arvo's attempts to simply reason with her, he got to make the call over whether they steal from her or not(and determinately made the same choice she did), and then Clementine went to fetch her group with Jane ordering her to rob his entire group for what Buricko did despite her misgivings about it, would'nt it be basically the same? Assuming it (somehow) ended with similar results with her as Vitali's prisoner with Arvo having just as little a say in how he treats her as she does with Kenny, how would it be any different (aside from the gender and obvious age difference) between the two? It's the same basic conflict: One acted against the other, the other reacted against the one, and then it just spiraled from there with the other growing resentful over what the one helped kick-start by association.
[I'm sorry about the length but I just didn't have the drive to edit it down.]
I don't remember anyone from Carver's group saying what type of doctor Carlos was before the outbreak. Everyone assumes he was a general practicioner, but what if he was like an eye doctor or something specialised? Maybe he didn't deal with wounds much. The cabin and the ski resort were shelters regardless of proximity to Carver. Maybe Rebecca could not go any further without resting. Do we know Bonnie knew the other people were there or did Carver decide to rob the place? She only sees Kenny, Clem, and Walter that we know of.
What are you trying to get at here?
It seems pretty clear that it was Carver's idea to hold the entire place up. While I believe Bonnie did see the Cabin Group were in there considering she was peaking through the window for quite a bit before Walter approaches her, she likely assumed they were only gonna capture them and bring them home without any incident. Also, she would have known that they were looking for the Cabin Group since she knew they were planning to escape beforehand and that was the reason Carver had them out there in the first place.