Jane in Season Two.
She's only in 3 episodes. That's all we get and yet people chose her over Kenny. I think Telltale writers deserve a lot of props for that. To be able to flesh out her character enough in that short amount of time that some people felt inclined to choose to stick with her or save her over Kenny at the end is no mean feat. I wonder how the choices might have swung in her favour if she'd been there from the first episode of Season One like Kenny was. I'm a total Kenny bro so it would have had to have been something spectacular to make me change my decision but I bet some people would have been swayed if they had an extra couple hours with her character. I just started the thread because Jane is such an integral part to S2 that I often forget she was only around for 3 episodes, and even then she disappears for a bit during episode 4.
Comments
Jane is indeed a complicated character.
I've stated numerous times that she is one of the only twe characters I legitimately hate on a personal level, yet that sentiment only really came after going through a rollercoaster of opinions regarding her up until the end of the Season. At the risk of coming across as being self promoting, I'll try to edit in some of my thoughts about her from previous topics.
I will say that I do understand some of the reasons why people would side with her over Kenny.
Ehhh I wouldn't go that far. I know for me, the main reason why I sided against Kenny initially in my first playthrough was not because of Jane at all. It was because Kenny had gone overboard and I wanted to save him from murdering someone in anger and being irreparably damaged. Jane could have easily been replaced with any other character, hell even Arvo, and I probably still would have shot Kenny on my first playthrough because that choice revolved around Kenny more so than Jane. I wouldn't say she's an exceptionally well-written character, she can show depth at times but she's also very inconsistent and I think the finale definitely would have benefitted from an extra episode of screentime.
Which exactly why I shot him on my first playthrough. Then I rewinded that chapter and did it again after he killed Jane because F@(K her!
From a writing standpoint? If so, how?
No, they did not need an extra episode to flesh out her or anyone's character...what they needed was to build these characters and fully have their motivations and histories fleshed out and be the least bit interesting. You should do this before you actually write a series out....get your outline done..flesh out your actors and make sure things actually make some Damn sense.
If your idea is to in the end have the player make a choice that is life and death you had better make sure that the two characters you are choosing have compelling characteristics that really tug at said players heart.
Jane is not even introduced as a real character until episode four, before then she was just that weirdo they found outside. Until that episode you knew nothing and had no attachment to her. In the end, most people who backed her was because Kenny was a massive dick in season two. There were some foundation of a compelling character in Jane but they introduced her too late for the player to actually honestly form an attachment.
I think that the Kenny/Jane fight should have been the Kenny/Luke fight...or I would have done something else like bring Lilly in Jane's place. Then that end fight would have been earned.
I'm gonna save some time for editing and say that I agree with this.
In other words, a gimmick in an already barebones episode, hence why I wasn't impressed.
Which is who I thought she was at first.
She's a very deeply written character. You maybe think she sucks as a person 'in world' but from a writing stand point I don't think you can really say she sucks and mean it.
But the whole point of her character is that she is inconsistent! She never really hides away from it though. I think she knows she's flawed. She deeply regrets leaving her sister and really does want to atone by not flaking out on Clementine, which she actually does do in episode 4 before coming back. At points her fear is too great to overcome and she has to bail. It's fight or flight. And as much as we all say we'd be bad asses in a zombie apocalypse how long would we hang out with the risk of being eaten looming over us? I think Jane can't be trusted nor can you put any stock in choosing her over Kenny when it comes to loyalty but she's a well written character imo.
People like you get really annoying when you decide like Season One was flawless and Season Two was a pile of crap. You make reference that Kenny was a massive dick in S2. NEWS FLASH, he's exactly the same in Season One. It's not like his character flipped, he just became more aggressive and desperate the long he was alive in that world. That is a natural progression for the character and not at all bad writing. Jane had a story, it's all there and done pretty damn well in a short space of time. If you want it drip fed to you then I guess yeah you wouldn't like how they did that Season but for anyone who wanted to actually look and listen, it was definitely there.
Jane wanted to be Kenny. Kenny made all the big hard decisions that nobody else wanted to, whether they were well thought out or stupid, he made them. Jane wanted to be a leader and someone that people could follow, but when it came down to it, she was more often than not just chicken shit. When it came down to actually putting her neck out for people, she couldn't do it, whereas Kenny could. Their animosity grows because Jane is jealous. Jane left her sister, convinces you to leave Sarah, leaves the group in EP4, and even makes a play to leave you as you escape Howes. She keeps making these excuses that you can't rely on anyone, but she's THE biggest culprit of that. Yet she wants you to leave with her, she wants to essentially make you a surrogate for her sister.
It's all there and it's deep and layered. Such rich characterization in a mere 3 episodes and it's a shame people refuse to see it because their bae Luke drowned.
I wanted to say I somewhat agreed with most of what you were saying but then you said "Jane wanted to be a leader". I'm pretty sure Jane laid it on from day one that she didn't want anything to do with anyone and that she only tagged along out of personal convenience. Also, that first statement was a bit much, even when taking in account the fact that it has nothing to do with the rest of your post.
But she wasn't consistently inconsistent, that's my problem.
Molly is consistently inconsistent. She contradicts herself talking about Crawford, she puts on a tough facade because she doesn't want to get attached to people or to Clem, but she also can't help herself, she wants to help her because she's a child and she failed to help those in Crawford, including her sister. Sounds familiar, only it's clear to the player that she feels conflicted and later it's revealed exactly why she's conflicted. There's a natural progression to her story that takes place in even LESS time than Jane's
Problem with Jane is that they wanted to redo Molly's storyline with her, only gave her different and unclear motivations. She constantly tries to justify her actions to herself and Clem, but the line between what she actually believes and what is facade is so blurred at times it's hard to figure out what exactly is her definitive motive, other than possible redemption for letting her sister die.
The same can be said about Kenny
Plus, saying she has no concern for anyone but herself is untrue;
They already fought in Season One, making them fight again in Season Two would've been redundant and unoriginal in my opinion.
Jane made it clear early on she didn't want anything to do with anyone, sure. But I really think that's because of her past. How she couldn't save the guy under the car. How she couldn't save her sister. She felt guilty about those things, that she didn't have the qualities to be willing to sacrifice herself for people she cared about. She had wanted to be alone because then she couldn't be responsible for anyone else dying on her watch.
I didn't mean she wanted to be the leader of the group and I could have made that clearer granted, more that she envied that Kenny was so willing to take on a role that saw him get things done. I have no doubt Jane didn't like the extremes to which Kenny went but I think she did wish she didn't always run away from those that needed her help. I think if you save her at the end over Kenny but walk away from her, you get a couple lines that really show what I'm saying, she finally speaks what she's really feeling, how she can't do it alone, and she needs Clementine. Essentially her big front about preferring to be alone was just that, a front.
And yeah, my first paragraph was just an aside to one line in the other guys post but I feel it then segued into my point about Jane's character.
Some people don't know what they want though. Some people are unable to commit to a decision, I think that was Jane. She did want to atone for letting her sister die by helping Clementine, but at the same time found it extremely hard to act on those desires.
This was such an insightful paragraph, really!
There is so much wrong with this paragraph.
I found the juxtaposition oddly funny.
That's entirely unfair. In my opinion "such rich characterization" was actually only a few moments of nice complexities but overall too riddled with the problems of passing the character through multiple hands and unrealized ideas. She seems deep and layered because no one unifying idea about her is followed through on, not because it's a result of genius writing. It's a legitimate opinion and analysis, and to discount that opinion because "their bae Luke drowned" (which I'm confused about since Luke barely came up in this discussion) doesn't incline me to take that rebuttal seriously.
Ironic that one would throw out passive aggressive comments like the above when those said comments aren't insightful themselves. At least I'm backing up my position and opinions with actual sentences as to why I feel that way. My comments about Jane are backed up by the things she does in the game. You literally do have a conversation with her where she tells you that you can't rely on anyone and to leave them, yet later in the game, she wants you to go with her, when all she had done throughout the game was show us how untrustworthy she was herself. That's a fact. But I'm sure instead of a well considered reply you'll just throw back some borish sarcastic comment because you're clearly too cool for school.
Also, she considered leaving them out there when Rebecca started to lose her nerve.
Plus, it was painfully obvious she'd rather they stay lost if you take note of her attitude.
I hate this scene for so many reasons.
Yes.
Oh come on, dude, at least she actually gave a shit that time. Give credit where it's due.
Not So Different. Which is a recurring thing about Kenny in general.
Who?
To be fair, this was after he put her on her in the first place. I'm glad he took responsibility for that, but still a dick move.
Had the decision to choose Kenny or Jane not been a or death choice I would've chosen Jane. But i didn't feel that Kenny deserved to be killed by Clem so my confusion and inaction resulted in Jane's death.
lol. Also, Clementine is the one person she consistently cared about so there's that too.
Oh okay. You using an e instead of an a made me think you were referring to more than one.
Plus, while he can be a real dick about at times, family was always a big thing in Kenny's eyes and he apparently knew Christa was pregnant.
Jane's great, I love her. She's an awesome character.
The most obvious would be when he offers her a drink while their sitting in the attic: notice when she suddenly chugs down a butch after hesitating for quite a bit, Kenny briefly glances down at her a few times before going wide-eyed as if he just realized something. While this is a funny acknowledgement of Christa of all people drinking like a champ at first glance, he must have either just remembered figuring that out or he really could tell just by examining her up close and realized what she's doing. The fact that gets a bit shifty eyed towards her after she finishes immediately afterwards reinforces this.
Well of course, that's pretty obvious I would think - that goes for all characters during their 'heroic' moments.
She doesn't do any such thing, Clementine can literally completely disagree. Remember that in the apocalypse resources are limited and looting is one of the best ways to get resources - regardless of what they do, they take a chance/risk.
Doesn't matter, fact is she risks her life to save a stranger she didn't want to risk her life for.
Saying right place right time doesn't change anything ya know... Yes, the one who would've killed Kenny had Jane not stepped in.
Yet she was the only one who risked their life by doing something.
Yep. After getting kicked out of the farm cause he saved his son and didn't try to save the person that offered his family protection when he had the chance to.
Stupidly, might I add. He could've shot Ben and left with Lee and the others.
I understood his actions though, Christa was pregnant - I agree with thus act of heroism.
We don't know what punishment Clementine would've gotten but I'll give him that one too.
He fixed an RV and Truck, that's two times. I do agree though but he then proceeded to act as a dictator after the truck was fixed.
He never had a spot in there. He tries to get Clementine and AJ into a community he isn't even sure is safe.
The exact same thing can be said for Kenny. Everything Jane did was optional, she could've left everyone to die but she didn't.
Yes, actually. The only reason characters in any story are able to perform specific actions that make them seem heroic is always due to them being in the right place at the right time. Do you think that Kenny would've been able to help Lee if he was at Hershel's Farm but left a day earlier or if Kenny was near Hershel's farm at the time but not actually inside it? Unless they have certain abilities, they're not going to be able to help someone at the wrong time or wrong place or both.
She never valued finding an ID card over helping Luke and Sarah. They literally had no idea where the others were, they only took a chance by choosing to search around the Trailer Park first. Jane and Clementine both looted from the corpses to see if they had anything useful - such as ammunition and the nail file - which Jane used to open up the Observation Deck's Souvenir Shop, so that Rebecca could have her baby in a safe location and the group could stay in a safe location.
Even so, are you honestly surprised he valued the life of his own son over the person who protected him's son? Kenny just freaked out.
I didn't ignore it at all, I just put it out there that he did a positive thing for Lee right after doing a negative thing - inaction when action was possible.
Yeah, he freaked out sure, but he literally stood there, his son already safe and rather than putting Duck down and trying to help Lee save Shawn, he chose to 'save' an individual whose life was no longer at risk.
Hey, I still agree with you, I'm just saying that the way Kenny chose to do something 'good' for Ben wasn't exactly an intelligent move by him. I'm not ignoring his action, I'm criticizing some of them, there's nothing wrong with that at all, if you want to play this game I could just reply to you by saying "So you ignore Jane's positive actions by saying right place, right time but I can't do the same?", I'm sure you wouldn't enjoy that would you?
What evidence do you have to back up this theory? He could've easily punished Sarah and with his mind state, he would have the right to do so, or even Clementine when they hadn't finished their individual tasks when they were cutting dead leaves off of the plants in the green house. The only evidence that can really back that up is Carver shooting Clementine if she's too slow to attack him but that's when everyone is close to escaping.
Whilst Kenny does good by fixing the vehicles it's not fair for him to become the dictator just because he fixed the vehicle. That's like saying the person who finds the rations decides who to give them to - they can just let people they dislike starve. Or who finds weapons decides who to give them to rather than going by who actually has experience with weaponry. How is a group going to hold together if one individual makes these decisions - as Clementine, Bonnie, Mike and Jane can all disagree with going to Wellington, even if Clementine agrees it's still the majority that wants a different location and he doesn't even try to negotiate a middle ground.
Kenny never did anything for Clementine and AJ to go into Wellington, Edith was the one who asked to let them in, give credit where credit is due. I can focus on the negatives with Kenny as much as I want, just as you yourself tend to focus on the negatives of Jane but hey, I do agree that some of what Kenny does is heroic, I've already stated that in my previous reply. I'm not going to admit what isn't true.
Then perhaps explain what you're saying? Jane things that anybody could have done, but she is the one who does it. Some of the things which Kenny did couldn't have been done by anyone but him. He didn't have much of a choice. - I can say the same thing.
Not just anyone could've done some of the things that Kenny did.
Didn't have much of a choice? Well...
Why would you say that?
The comment above was never meant to be taken as passive-aggressive nor mocking, and I apologize if you felt that way. I meant it when I said that I found the first paragraph insightful—it wasn't ground-breaking, but it offered a perspective that I hadn't considered before. I just worded it awfully.
Have I said something in the past that makes you think I am acting "too cool for school?" Because that is not my intention, at all.
She didn't want to in the first place, she did it after Rebecca lost her mind.
Everyone would do that, also Jane wanted to leave Sarah behind.
Because of Clementine, not Sarah. Also the same "Selfless" girl we talk about said:
If things start heading south, don't let them drag you down with them. You don't owe them anything.
And if you agree with that because it wouldn't be worth the try to save someone when there's no "chance" to do it.. Then why did Lee tried to save Clementine from the Stranger and did it successfully? nothing is impossible.
You're talking about the one who left the group because she didn't want to see other people from the group to die and that came back 90% only for Clementine? that is selfish.
That's finally one selfless thing she did over the million things Kenny did. Also, like Jane cared about Clementine, and Kenny for his family, everything Jane did was only for Clem and the things that Kenny did was not everything about his family.
I'm not saying I hate Jane and I am Kenny fan or something, I'm just proving the point that Jane is selfish and Kenny is selfless, I like them both.
News flash, I also said that Kenny should have been done in season one. Who cares if they just made him more aggressive and heaped more shit on him....if the reason you bring back Kenny was just to make him suffer more and build more nostalgia for season 2. Kenny's being a dick was put into hyper drive in season two...in season one he killed Larry, I did not agree with it and thought it wrong. Yet you can understand it. Season two...torturing Arvo...and let's be honest...that was what it was literally turned Kenny into a parody of the 80's action hero. In season one Kenny also had bouts of cowardice...he would freeze. It was a flaw in his character that season two disregarded to make Kenny into super dick.
Now I do not believe that season two was a disaster...however you cannot tell me or anyone that season two did not suffer and have issues that season one avoided.
Yeah, I'm inclined to agree with this point.
1. I agree to a point. It's clear that Carver, much like Luke, Sarah, Bonnie, Jane, and Arvo, took some form interest in Clementine, if only for egotistical reasons, so him going "easy" on her wouldn't be completely out of the question. However, he also likes hurting people and reinforcing his authority in the most brutal manner possible, so he also could've beat the shit out of her if he felt like it.
2. Technically, he did. Also, its not like he couldn't have taken it further, because he quite obviously had an opportunity where he could, its just that we never follow up on that situation from Sarah's perspective.
That doesn't change the fact that she's the reason Clementine, Rebecca and in turn, AJ, got out of the walker horde alive.
Can you truly prove that when people are surprised by instances like Mike and Bonnie leaving the group and taking all the supplies? Fact is, Jane did it, not everyone and yeah, Jane wanted to leave Sarah behind but she can risk her life twice if Clementine chooses not to abandon her.
If things start heading south, don't let them drag you down with them. You don't owe them anything.
And if you agree with that because it wouldn't be worth the try to save someone when there's no "chance" to do it.. Then why did Lee tried to save Clementine from the Stranger and did it successfully? nothing is impossible.
Actually no, Jane also tries to save Sarah if Clementine remains silent and the fact is, she still tries to help Sarah and is the only one who actually tries to. You can say Mike and Bonnie helped but they didn't go down there trying to save her like Jane did.
I don't agree with Jane's initial ideology of being a lone survivor and I never stated I believe it's not worth giving people a chance. What does agreeing or disagreeing with Jane's ideology(at that point in time) have to do with Lee trying to save Clementine? You do realize the difference between Jane & Sarah's relationship in comparison to Clementine & Lee's right? Jane and Sarah hardly know each other, I don't recall them ever talking to one another at all now that I think about it. I like to think that nothing is impossible but that doesn't erase the chances of failure and risk.
Wait what? You do realize that she did most of the work for the group and even had her own plan to escape Howe's, she has every reason to leave if she wants to, why should she stay with a group she barely knows - the group of people who distrust her(such as Bonnie and eventually Kenny?). She doesn't owe them much to stay and she's still her own person and has the right to make that decision if she so chooses and at least her reasoning is genuine and understandable - she doesn't want to see more people die. Also, how is it 'selfish' to come back and rescue someone you've grown to care about? If anything that's selfless of Jane. She risks her own life to go back to make sure that Clementine and maybe even Luke are safe - you can't say it was 90% for Clementine, those percentages come from thin air.
One selfless thing? She's done so many that I've already stated, must I re-state my examples? And Kenny did not do even one percentage of a million selfless things from what we've seen in both Seasons. Sure, Jane may not have done allot of things specifically for the people she helped but that doesn't change the fact that she helped allot of people:
I don't hate either, I actually very much like both, although in honesty, Jane more than Kenny. You didn't really prove much either way - it's evident that both characters, like all characters, have selfish and selfless moments. There's no use arguing one way when the characters have acted in both ways.
My apologies. I thought you were being sarcastic. I jumped the gun there, sorry. You haven't said anything in the past for me to say that, that comment was based only on the comment where I thought you were being patronising, which now I see I was wrong about.
Also let's not forget. Jane did put AJ in danger so as to provoke Kenny and probably wouldn't of told Clem AJ was still alive after Kenny was dead. AJ would've died in that car had he not cried.
You know Clementine could save herself without Jane's help right?
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the proof I mentioned earlier, she does everything for her sister (but in the end she didn't), Clementine or herself.
Hmm.... Maybe it's based on the choices earlier just like Clementine shooting Lee or Roman executing Roberto, if not then I'm happy.
Jane's ideology has to do with it because she says if someone's in trouble don't let him drag you down, and that with Lee-Clementine was just an example of what Lee did when Clem was on trouble, he saved her. I don't think if Jane was in Lee's place would do the same.
I never said that's selfless, I said that she left the group because she didn't want to see other people die is selfless.
And actually, I can say that it was 90% for Clementine because Jane herself said that.
I just exaggerate.
Actually, Luke and Kenny had the plan, Jane just had the idea of putting walker guts, and she had to give the idea because others made the plan and she had no choice but not to leave them behind, if anyone had that idea they wouldn't leave it for themselves because later they could see the trick and do it themselves.
Troy is the enemy, I don't think anyone helps the enemy, Jane just had the chance to do it and everyone would do it plus that's not selfless, she could've wanted to protect her own skin and kill him.
I already answered that
She did that because she wanted to be alone with Clem and not because she wanted to find everyone else.
Woohh... It's too hard and takes too much time to learn someone a knee trick. Did she learned her how to use a nail file properly?
Everyone (except Sarah) did something here, and if we're looking to the characters like that.
I didn't mean anything of those 3 examples I gave, I just mentioned Kenny in the same way you mentioned Jane.
> Jane risks her own life** if Clementine convinces Sarah to leave**
I won't answer that.
It was high from the walkers and there was a chance they could find food there so.. Why not?
I don't think she would do that if she knew that she would get hit in the head with a plank of wood.
I would've preferred her to not give the nail file because Clementine doesn't know how to use it. I just think the nail file is some sort of symbol for them two.
I'm happy she changed her mind, I talked about before, not after, I believe people change unlike Jane
Because Kenny trusts mostly Clementine, how selfless of Jane (I'm being sarcastic)
Like putting him in a cold car where he could've died from it?
Because it's Clementine and not anyone else.. duuhhhh. Also Kenny was too far to help her, even if he tried he wouldn't be there in time, what if we swapped their places? it would be Kenny to pull Clementine back, it makes no difference.
I don't think everyone could go to the fireplace and try everyone together to light a fire, again, if she wasn't there Mike or Kenny would do it.
And with that logic, Kenny believes that Wellington is the best place for a baby because it would be safe from walkers and probably they would be warm there with fire or something, plus clothes are always an option. I don't say Wellington is better (I actually think it is but we're not talking about that) but they both try to find a place to survive, the difference is that Jane wanted a place to survive while Kenny wanted a place for Clementine and AJ to stay, he didn't actually thought for himself at that moment because he was willing to stay behind so Clementine and AJ could go.
About Jane and AJ... She doesn't really care about him, because like she said: It's her baby. Not mine. Or yours. Which could've mean she doesn't want to raise him.
Really? Because I remember she thanked you for making them leave and that she just didn't have the guts to make them leave.
They had massive disagreements in season one...however having her in season two instead of Jane would have been more interesting and believable than the Jane/Kenny fight.
They had massive disagreements in season one...however having her in season two instead of Jane would have been more interesting and believable than the Jane/Kenny fight.
The one flaw though is that the whole Season 1 is better than Season 2 thing would be pretty damn blatant. Then again, that wouldn't be the case if Christa and Omid actually played a bigger role, so whatever.
Why not?... Her whole point of hiding AJ was to show Clem what Kenny was capable of if something drove him to the edge, obviously she was going to go get AJ back after Kenny was dealt with.
This thread seems to be going well.
I don't think the main factor for 70%+ of the players choosing Jane over Kenny was Jane being a good character. She is, and it surely contributed, but the main factor actually resides in Kenny's character and his actions.
This choice wasn't exactly about 'who do you like most', it was more about killing your old friend and do the right thing or let him live and leave a person to die at his hands for no good reason. This choice setup obviously didn't work for some players (such as me) by the simple fact that some people saw Kenny as more of a caged monster than an 'old friend'.
Did you forget that Jane protected Jaime more than six times as much time as Lee protected Clementine? She was in that position as well and she decided to keep her safe, for possibly two years or more, instead of ditching her like you said you think she would.
Oh, and she potentially protects Clementine as well starting from "No Going Back."
That cold car is warmer that the raging blizzard outside.
You are coming across as deliberately ignorant, Lee.
Because she didn't like AJ and she'd made it clear. And doing something that would provoke anyone to prove that person is unstable isn't something someone smart does.
Hey. I poked a bear in the eye and it mauled me to death. See I told you bears kill humans.