Another moment for me personally was when Sarah was seen worrying about Rebecca from afar and then had to strain herself trying to warn Clementine. What happens next is pretty much the one story screwup I find unforgivable due to the plethora of problems it causes for the Season going forward.
Somewhere in the middle of three. At that point it just felt like a mad dash to get the group free and to start the Birth of AJ and the Kenny/Jane conflict.
Carver was never developed much beyond 'psychopath'.Troy saw more devlopment in that episode than Carver did. The entire arc was about 48 hours story time. The 400 days cast other than Bonnie were reduced to cameos.
It more has to do with OP's rude phrasing. A group of very passionate and loving writers worked on that season and to just say they "gave up" must be a real knock in the teeth to those people, and others like myself who loved the second season.
Sarah getting killed because of Luke and Jane, as well as the other problems surrounding that scene.
Examples include but are not limited to:
The first threeway between Clementine, Sarah, and Jane in the trailer being retroactively shit all over and made harsher in hindsight.
Jane talking up Sarah as a sociopathic future threat when that ended up applying more to her. Both in that moment and the next episode.
Luke having this one legitimately selfish moment feels much worse/harsher than it really needed to be.
Clementine's feelings on Sarah dying being relatively undressed despite the friendship and similarities between the two.
Jane being a consequence dodger and avoiding responsibility in general, even though there was at least one perfectly good moment to address that.
The hypocritical morals and messages working against that scene.
The lack of any real closure and payoff to Sarah's character arc. Not to mention the various wasted opportunities to do something to make that scene meaningful.
The lack of effects and consequences for her death.
How sloppy and faux ambiguous the scene was. Not to mention the fact that it either 1. could've worked with numerous tweaks to alleviate most of these issues, 2. make her death and/or possible sacrifice/suicide mean something, and 3. didn't need to happen at all considering what happens literally two scenes later.
The similarities between Sarah and Arvo making the conflicts with both feel ...really confused morality wise. Not to mention making Jane bad even when she's supposed to be changing her ways.
The campfire scene. For pretty much all the reasons given.
The Luke and Jane thing by itself barely registered when I first played the episode, to be honest; I honestly just chalked peoples dislike for it up to "Die for my ship" and the baggage added by Sarah's death. Also, the reply button is a thing. Not an insult, but still helpful.
Yeeaah, I admit that I normally feel pretty hesitant about questioning the thought process of people with a job. So, it means something when I say that I hate that I have to give them so much flak over my contribution here in particular.
I really was looking forward to absolutely loving Season 2 over Season 1, I really did. To the point of avoiding spoilers as much as possible until I finally played the disc collection back in June. But while I do really like the Season enough to say it could've been even better, the issues I have with it and the flaws I've noticed from a writing/storytelling standpoint are serious enough for me to wonder what happened.
It more has to do with OP's rude phrasing. A group of very passionate and loving writers worked on that season and to just say they "gave up" must be a real knock in the teeth to those people, and others like myself who loved the second season.
It more has to do with OP's rude phrasing. A group of very passionate and loving writers worked on that season and to just say they "gave up" must be a real knock in the teeth to those people, and others like myself who loved the second season.
Yeah, that is the weakest episode from my perspective.
Troy saw more devlopment in that episode than Carver did.
It's sad because it's true. To the point that I was a little sad/suspicious when Jane decided he had outlived his usefulness.
The entire arc was about 48 hours story time. The 400 days cast other than Bonnie were reduced to cameos.
That first point in particular is one of the hurdles I'm struggling to deal with in my rewrite thread since it makes that episode feel even barer than it already did.
Somewhere in the middle of three. At that point it just felt like a mad dash to get the group free and to start the Birth of AJ and the Kenn… morey/Jane conflict.
Carver was never developed much beyond 'psychopath'.Troy saw more devlopment in that episode than Carver did. The entire arc was about 48 hours story time. The 400 days cast other than Bonnie were reduced to cameos.
I do agree with you, but for me I never cared for Sarah, it always struck me as unrealistic that she would have survived that long...Father or no Father. She was broken and to me it would have been a Damn shame to sacrifice anyone to save her...though Nick may have died because of her.
Sarah getting killed because of Luke and Jane, as well as the other problems surrounding that scene.
Examples include but are not limited… more to:
* The first threeway between Clementine, Sarah, and Jane in the trailer being retroactively shit all over and made harsher in hindsight.
* Jane talking up Sarah as a sociopathic future threat when that ended up applying more to her. Both in that moment and the next episode.
* Luke having this one legitimately selfish moment feels much worse/harsher than it really needed to be.
* Clementine's feelings on Sarah dying being relatively undressed despite the friendship and similarities between the two.
* Jane being a consequence dodger and avoiding responsibility in general, even though there was at least one perfectly good moment to address that.
* The hypocritical morals and messages working against that scene.
* The lack of any real closure and payoff to Sarah's character arc. Not to mention… [view original content]
You know, that episode is the worst not because it is bad, but because it had plenty of signs that there was a lot of thought and planning put into it that make the bad choices stand out even more.
I've noticed several details and rumors that make me think there were a few last minute decisions made during that production. I kinda wanna look into that....
Season 2: Behind-the-scenes. Yeah that would be cool because even though I and many others have issues with it...it is still better than 90% of other stories in other games.
I do wonder how much TWAU being done at the same time frame put a strain on the writers?
You know, that episode is the worst not because it is bad, but because it had plenty of signs that there was a lot of thought and planning p… moreut into it that make the bad choices stand out even more.
I've noticed several details and rumors that make me think there were a few last minute decisions made during that production. I kinda wanna look into that....
I do agree with you, but for me I never cared for Sarah
Well YMMV, but the point is the story just completely threw away a main character who was (in my opinion the most) built up to have a prominent role in the very first episode. Not to mention the previously mentioned issues with the episodes' morality, consequences, closure, and messages.
it always struck me as unrealistic that she would have survived that long...Father or no Father.
Really?! If you really needed an explanation, the fact that they lived at Howe's should be enough of an indication as to how they got by without too much danger; plus, some lines show that she's witnessed a few arguments, fights, and deaths in her time, so its not like she is completely ignorant to the concept of danger.
Also, and minor petpeeve here, but I think some people waaay over exaggerate Sarah's flaws at times, especially considering it's shown in the earlier episodes that she has self-awareness to admit that even she finds Carlos's overprotectiveness to be a bit much, enough "skill" shall we say(?) to adequately avoid detection from Carver despite being anxious and relatively close to him at the time, and enough common knowledge about what's going on to be uncomfortable about Clementine's bite when she noticed it. The fact that some go as far as to call her autistic or retarded is proof of that.
She was broken and to me it would have been a Damn shame to sacrifice anyone to save her...though Nick may have died because of her.
Oh! That's another reason: Jane, who was really being played up as this stoic badass, risking her life
to save Sarah would've not only been a no brainer but it would've been the first big step to helping Jane get over her issues and become a better person.
Also, not even kidding here, but when I first played the episode, I legitimately thought the constant noise, banging, and yelling in the trailer was because Luke and Sarah were flat out fighting each other. Part of me thinks that may have been because Sarah probably didn't want Nick to go out there the way he did and thus had another reason to want Luke to just leave her alone aside from her personal issues.
I do agree with you, but for me I never cared for Sarah, it always struck me as unrealistic that she would have survived that long...Father … moreor no Father. She was broken and to me it would have been a Damn shame to sacrifice anyone to save her...though Nick may have died because of her.
You know what, that does sound cool. Glad I thought of it. :P
Also, having deadline are fine but pushbacks are a viable option if you really feel like you're rushing too much on one product. Though ironically enough, I heard Amid the Ruins WAS delayed, so eh?
Season 2: Behind-the-scenes. Yeah that would be cool because even though I and many others have issues with it...it is still better than 90… more% of other stories in other games.
I do wonder how much TWAU being done at the same time frame put a strain on the writers?
They just didn't know which direction to take. Season 2 was kinda just all over the place.
Very accurate. Probably should've stuck to their guns with the basics and developed things from there as they moved forward. They clearly had some expandable concepts especially where Sarah, Rebecca, and Nick are concerned, but they started downplaying and forgetting things after Kenny was introduced for some reason.
Episodes 1, 2, and 3 are strong to me. I would say that the writing started falling late in episode 3. I don't consider episodes 4 or 5 bad, I just think that Kenny should have been more of a side character, they could've kept Carver and the Howe's Hardware setting around for another episode, and the remaining cabin group could have gotten some more focus.
Got to agree. Love or hate season 2, it's unfair to proclaim that the people that worked on the series gave up. I enjoyed season 2 maybe as much as I did season 1 (that might have been affected by me knowing Lee was going to die at the end before I'd played the game, season 2 I went in blind.)
It more has to do with OP's rude phrasing. A group of very passionate and loving writers worked on that season and to just say they "gave up" must be a real knock in the teeth to those people, and others like myself who loved the second season.
Like after Episode 2. Then they had guest writers who weren't that great especially JT Petty a freelance writer who inbox way shape or form worked for Telltale who just seemingly did it for money and left.
Got to agree. Love or hate season 2, it's unfair to proclaim that the people that worked on the series gave up. I enjoyed season 2 maybe as … moremuch as I did season 1 (that might have been affected by me knowing Lee was going to die at the end before I'd played the game, season 2 I went in blind.)
They gave up at the end of episode 2. When episode 3 was on the drawing board they realized it was too hard for their amateur writers to make a believable escape out of Howe's so they just said "fuck it, this is too hard, let's try again later in Season 3" then they outsourced their writers for Episode 4, cough cough, J.T. Petty.
I just think that Kenny should have been more of a side character, they could've kept Carver and the Howe's Hardware setting around for another episode, and the remaining cabin group could have gotten some more focus.
Agreed.
Episodes 1, 2, and 3 are strong to me. I would say that the writing started falling late in episode 3.
Huh. I guess being straightforward does sometimes pay off (in episode 3's case).
Episodes 1, 2, and 3 are strong to me. I would say that the writing started falling late in episode 3. I don't consider episodes 4 or 5 bad,… more I just think that Kenny should have been more of a side character, they could've kept Carver and the Howe's Hardware setting around for another episode, and the remaining cabin group could have gotten some more focus.
I think they didn't give up and kept going, I just feel that they may have chosen emotional story-telling in favor of logical and coherent story-telling.
I wouldn't say they gave up exactly. Season 2 was still a good game despite being inferior to season 1. If you play one after the other in a short space of time, you realise how much better season 1 is. It's hard to really pinpoint a moment where season 2 lost it, as a lot of it was up and down in terms of quality.
I actually like season 2 more than season 1. I think it's absolutely stellar and it tackles great themes such as hopelessness, despair, losing your will to live and stuff like that.
Like after Episode 2. Then they had guest writers who weren't that great especially JT Petty a freelance writer who inbox way shape or form worked for Telltale who just seemingly did it for money and left.
Comments
Agreed, to a point.
Another moment for me personally was when Sarah was seen worrying about Rebecca from afar and then had to strain herself trying to warn Clementine. What happens next is pretty much the one story screwup I find unforgivable due to the plethora of problems it causes for the Season going forward.
Luke and Jane or Sarah getting killed?
The writers never gave up (and in fact did a better job in some ways than the first season).. Of course that's just my non cynical opinion
Never
Hmm... a "non-cynical" opinion. What are examples of this better job?
I'm legitimately curious.
Somewhere in the middle of three. At that point it just felt like a mad dash to get the group free and to start the Birth of AJ and the Kenny/Jane conflict.
Carver was never developed much beyond 'psychopath'.Troy saw more devlopment in that episode than Carver did. The entire arc was about 48 hours story time. The 400 days cast other than Bonnie were reduced to cameos.
I think people should get a prize when they double post.
Yeah the entire Carver thing was over too fast.
It more has to do with OP's rude phrasing. A group of very passionate and loving writers worked on that season and to just say they "gave up" must be a real knock in the teeth to those people, and others like myself who loved the second season.
Sarah getting killed because of Luke and Jane, as well as the other problems surrounding that scene.
Examples include but are not limited to:
The Luke and Jane thing by itself barely registered when I first played the episode, to be honest; I honestly just chalked peoples dislike for it up to "Die for my ship" and the baggage added by Sarah's death. Also, the reply button is a thing. Not an insult, but still helpful.
When Amid the Ruins was getting written.
Yeeaah, I admit that I normally feel pretty hesitant about questioning the thought process of people with a job. So, it means something when I say that I hate that I have to give them so much flak over my contribution here in particular.
I really was looking forward to absolutely loving Season 2 over Season 1, I really did. To the point of avoiding spoilers as much as possible until I finally played the disc collection back in June. But while I do really like the Season enough to say it could've been even better, the issues I have with it and the flaws I've noticed from a writing/storytelling standpoint are serious enough for me to wonder what happened.
Still waiting for examples of how season two has better writing than season one.
Yeah, that is the weakest episode from my perspective.
It's sad because it's true. To the point that I was a little sad/suspicious when Jane decided he had outlived his usefulness.
That first point in particular is one of the hurdles I'm struggling to deal with in my rewrite thread since it makes that episode feel even barer than it already did.
I do agree with you, but for me I never cared for Sarah, it always struck me as unrealistic that she would have survived that long...Father or no Father. She was broken and to me it would have been a Damn shame to sacrifice anyone to save her...though Nick may have died because of her.
You know, that episode is the worst not because it is bad, but because it had plenty of signs that there was a lot of thought and planning put into it that make the bad choices stand out even more.
I've noticed several details and rumors that make me think there were a few last minute decisions made during that production. I kinda wanna look into that....
Season 2: Behind-the-scenes. Yeah that would be cool because even though I and many others have issues with it...it is still better than 90% of other stories in other games.
I do wonder how much TWAU being done at the same time frame put a strain on the writers?
They didn't. Stop being such a baby.
Well YMMV, but the point is the story just completely threw away a main character who was (in my opinion the most) built up to have a prominent role in the very first episode. Not to mention the previously mentioned issues with the episodes' morality, consequences, closure, and messages.
Really?! If you really needed an explanation, the fact that they lived at Howe's should be enough of an indication as to how they got by without too much danger; plus, some lines show that she's witnessed a few arguments, fights, and deaths in her time, so its not like she is completely ignorant to the concept of danger.
Also, and minor petpeeve here, but I think some people waaay over exaggerate Sarah's flaws at times, especially considering it's shown in the earlier episodes that she has self-awareness to admit that even she finds Carlos's overprotectiveness to be a bit much, enough "skill" shall we say(?) to adequately avoid detection from Carver despite being anxious and relatively close to him at the time, and enough common knowledge about what's going on to be uncomfortable about Clementine's bite when she noticed it. The fact that some go as far as to call her autistic or retarded is proof of that.
Oh! That's another reason: Jane, who was really being played up as this stoic badass, risking her life
to save Sarah would've not only been a no brainer but it would've been the first big step to helping Jane get over her issues and become a better person.
Also, not even kidding here, but when I first played the episode, I legitimately thought the constant noise, banging, and yelling in the trailer was because Luke and Sarah were flat out fighting each other. Part of me thinks that may have been because Sarah probably didn't want Nick to go out there the way he did and thus had another reason to want Luke to just leave her alone aside from her personal issues.
You know what, that does sound cool. Glad I thought of it. :P
Also, having deadline are fine but pushbacks are a viable option if you really feel like you're rushing too much on one product. Though ironically enough, I heard Amid the Ruins WAS delayed, so eh?
oh they did sweetie
I don't want to say they gave up. They just didn't know which direction to take. Season 2 was kinda just all over the place.
Nope. If you don't like it move on with your life instead of obsessing over a 2 year old game that you didn't like.
Very accurate. Probably should've stuck to their guns with the basics and developed things from there as they moved forward. They clearly had some expandable concepts especially where Sarah, Rebecca, and Nick are concerned, but they started downplaying and forgetting things after Kenny was introduced for some reason.
I wonder if it was a case of second guessing themselves?
Episodes 1, 2, and 3 are strong to me. I would say that the writing started falling late in episode 3. I don't consider episodes 4 or 5 bad, I just think that Kenny should have been more of a side character, they could've kept Carver and the Howe's Hardware setting around for another episode, and the remaining cabin group could have gotten some more focus.
Got to agree. Love or hate season 2, it's unfair to proclaim that the people that worked on the series gave up. I enjoyed season 2 maybe as much as I did season 1 (that might have been affected by me knowing Lee was going to die at the end before I'd played the game, season 2 I went in blind.)
Like after Episode 2. Then they had guest writers who weren't that great especially JT Petty a freelance writer who inbox way shape or form worked for Telltale who just seemingly did it for money and left.
Probably. The stuff they were building up with Kenny, Sarah, and Jane in Amid the Ruins kinding reeks of that impression.
I did too, for the most past.
They didn't.
The writers gave up around episode 3/4 leading into 5 in my opinion.
They gave up at the end of episode 2. When episode 3 was on the drawing board they realized it was too hard for their amateur writers to make a believable escape out of Howe's so they just said "fuck it, this is too hard, let's try again later in Season 3" then they outsourced their writers for Episode 4, cough cough, J.T. Petty.
Sounds about write.
"More Kenny, more drama, more Jane? Yes Sir!" :roll:
Also, dat name.
Agreed.
Huh. I guess being straightforward does sometimes pay off (in episode 3's case).
That's what she said!
...Too soon?
I think they didn't give up and kept going, I just feel that they may have chosen emotional story-telling in favor of logical and coherent story-telling.
I wouldn't say they gave up exactly. Season 2 was still a good game despite being inferior to season 1. If you play one after the other in a short space of time, you realise how much better season 1 is. It's hard to really pinpoint a moment where season 2 lost it, as a lot of it was up and down in terms of quality.
I actually like season 2 more than season 1. I think it's absolutely stellar and it tackles great themes such as hopelessness, despair, losing your will to live and stuff like that.
Yeah, because Telltale never had guest writers before. Remember Gary Whitta and Anthony Butch?