Following up on my comments about how black and white the Morality Scale is in those final three episodes this Season in particular, let's t… morealk about one the more "popular" victims: Arvo.
Arvo was casted as the Disc Two/Interim Villain during the breather period after dealing with Carver. The level of threat he posed to the group was very different from that of Bill's: whereas Carver was major, insufferable, forceful, magnificent, and an absolute hate sink, Arvo was incidental, kindly, submissive, ineffectual, and a borderline designated villain. What I mean when I say that Arvo is a Designated Villain is that he was more forced into the role than he should have been. If we were to look at it from a neutral standpoint, neither side is truly bad: Clementine was just looking for a place for Rebecca to have her baby, Arvo was just looking for a place to stash some medicine for Natasha, both happened to pick the same spot by coincidence and me… [view original content]
How did I miss this comment? This always happens when threads get shoved off of the main subforum page. Anyway, I could not agree any more with your assessment here. Excellent, well-thought out post!
Following up on my comments about how black and white the Morality Scale is in those final three episodes this Season in particular, let's t… morealk about one the more "popular" victims: Arvo.
Arvo was casted as the Disc Two/Interim Villain during the breather period after dealing with Carver. The level of threat he posed to the group was very different from that of Bill's: whereas Carver was major, insufferable, forceful, magnificent, and an absolute hate sink, Arvo was incidental, kindly, submissive, ineffectual, and a borderline designated villain. What I mean when I say that Arvo is a Designated Villain is that he was more forced into the role than he should have been. If we were to look at it from a neutral standpoint, neither side is truly bad: Clementine was just looking for a place for Rebecca to have her baby, Arvo was just looking for a place to stash some medicine for Natasha, both happened to pick the same spot by coincidence and me… [view original content]
Maybe he didn't deal with wounds much.
What are you trying to get at here?
Do we know Bonnie knew the other people were there … moreor did Carver decide to rob the place? She only sees Kenny, Clem, and Walter that we know of.
It seems pretty clear that it was Carver's idea to hold the entire place up. While I believe Bonnie did see the Cabin Group were in there considering she was peaking through the window for quite a bit before Walter approaches her, she likely assumed they were only gonna capture them and bring them home without any incident. Also, she would have known that they were looking for the Cabin Group since she knew they were planning to escape beforehand and that was the reason Carver had them out there in the first place.
How did I miss this comment? This always happens when threads get shoved off of the main subforum page. Anyway, I could not agree any more with your assessment here. Excellent, well-thought out post!
I noticed people say Carlos is a "bad" doctor when he could just be inexperienced with bites.
True. Thought one would assume he would have examined at least one bite victim in his time. Also, there is also the alternative interpretation that he either couldn't tell because of the dog's thrashing(as @firewallvolcano mentions up above) or he did know the difference and just didn't trust Clementine enough to waste supplies and just turn her loose if she was in league with Carver.
What if he were in Carver's group since the beginning?
Well, that should've been explored in Episode 3! Would've made both of them and that episode less bare. Plus, the idea of Sarah essentially being Movie!Deadshot's daughter is hilarious.
Since I've got some material left to share, let's talk about one of my "favorite" characters: Jane. Look, I know I tend to rant about a lot of things, especially where characters like her, Sarah, and Arvo are involved, but this is something I've had on my chest for months and I don't think I ever got it off. So, lets's get into the exact nature of my loathing towards Jane:
As I've stated plenty of times before, Jane came off as unintentonally unsympathetic in No Going Back because of the baggage that didn't carry over properly from Amid the Ruins: her absentminded implication that Rebecca could get rid of the baby, trying to repeatedly convince Clementine to give up on the group, being the one who decided to rob and threaten Arvo, making Luke the offer that caused him to shirk his guard duty, her role in both of Sarah's deaths and her abandonment of the group before the final scene, which meant she avoided the brunt of the Russian attack. And that's not counting her general attitude, hypocrisy, self concerned morality, and things like indirectly cheating Bonnie. The fact that most of this is water under the bridge in this episode despite the horrible connotations of some just didn't feel right; the only true exceptions are Jane's apology to Clementine for leaving, Luke and Bonnie's visual skepticism towards her initial reappearance and a complainer is wrong moment with Kenny("Don't try and pin this on me.").
I know this is the wrong thread for this, but its worth noting: An aspect of her character that I thought was a bit unconventional was her relationship with Mike or rather lackthereof. I understand that two characters who are introduced in the same manner don't need to be linked for the rest of their screentime, but you would think there would be some connection. From what I gather, Mike mentioned that Jane vouching for Kenny's escape plan to walk through a herd was the first thing he ever heard her say--and it was crazy and stupid. I at least got the vibe that they respected each other enough to stay out of each other's way while in the pin and agree with the other's opinion of what the rational course of action would be. So, having them at least acknowledge each other's presence would work fine enough. Another detail I didn't notice until recently was that after finishing talking with Kenny in time for Clementine to come clean his wound, Jane walks away to join in on a conversation with Mike and Arvo. I would kill to know what these three were discussing at the time, since not only is it one of the few times Mike and Jane interact with each other, but Arvo is also apparently part of the conversation. I think it would have been a great oppurtunity to not only develop Mike's friendship with Arvo and growing fear of Kenny, but it could also try to fix/justify a serious problem with Jane's character....
Back on topic, having Jane and Mike discuss having Arvo along and their role in it could've help address this issue by having Jane and Arvo actually interact towards each other's presence. While she didn't necessarily disagree with killing Arvo, Jane seemed to think he was useful enough to use for supplies and later gets angry with Kenny for beating him so badly; Arvo actually having a chance to be around Jane without Clementine and Kenny would also address whether he still holds a grudge against her, avoids contact out of fear, or if Clementine and Kenny simply overshadowed what little beef he had with her and he is mutually indifferent. Seeing as Arvo wasn't exactly in a speaking mood at the time, I would like to think Clementine popping into the conversation(kinda like with Rebecca and Sarita) would potentially have Jane officially apologize to both for starting the conflict with the Russians in the first place. As unlikely as it may sound, Jane was consistently softened around Clementine so I would've liked to think she would admit her wrongdoings when she isn't feeling pressured or on trial.
Another scene I expected to be capitalized on for this purpose is the campfire. Recall, this is supposed to be the big breather moment after the confusion and danger of the preceding and following scenes and pretty much everyone besides Arvo is just taking the time to relax, drink, and laugh a bit. Jane and Kenny both hang around the outskirts of the area to brood, which leads Bonnie to give Clementine the bottle to invite them both over. While Kenny's sequence addresses some issues surrounding his behavior from the previous episodes and has a few determinate results based on your choices, Jane once again falls back into talking about Jaime (in a happy manner this time) before joining everyone else around the campfire while snarking that she feels like she signed a contract.
This is unfortunately the scene where I officially started outright hating Jane, which isn't helped by the conversation after she joins the campfire. The reason this is is because, as you probably got memorized by now, Sarah was my favorite character of the Season and her "canon" death is my worst moment of the season for a plethora of reasons. From a writing standpoint, this scene is supposed to be establishing a better connection amongst the remaining group members by addressing certain issues about their past actions and revealing some hidden demons; it's also supposed to be reassurance that when Jane said she was gonna make this ' thing' work, she actually meant it. However, the fact that the issue of her role in both of Sarah's deaths is completely glossed over, in direct spite of the fact that she was just talking fondly about the same sister who was the reason she was so discriminating of Sarah to begin with, was not only a spit in the face, but also a crucial misstep to properly redeeming Jane as a new member of the group.
We're supposed to believe that Jane's changed for the better, that she's putting her old ways behind her, that she really wants be a team player, but this is probably one of ( if not the) biggest reasons why Sarah's "canon" death specifically hurt the story more than anything else moving forward, to the point that it's one of the only times I have to unforgivably call something as just plain bad writing. I wanted to see Jane reform, I wanted to help her be able to join the group, and I wanted her to be everyone's friend (especially Sarah's), but that situation created this distrust and uncomfortable baggage around her character. Now, the classic wildcard/antihero/loner tropes that precede her character development would be fine on their own, but combined with a complete failure to adequately address the disproportionate death of a character who, lets be honest here, was tender/emotional to a fault, actively didn't want to ever hurt anyone, didn't even do anything to Jane(which I actually would've been fine with, but that's a topic for another time...), and, as a foil/counterpart, represented a certain aspect of Clementine's character that should've been treated with far more respect(along with all the other parts of her character, but again, another time...), they made her the most unsympathetic of the final seven members of ClementineKenny's group in my opinion.
The obvious solution to this, and by extension a lot of the negative flaws I listed at the beginning, should've been a no brainer: while Jane is opening up about her feelings under the influence of alcohol, have her acknowledge these things. She's laughing and looking back on a time Jaime came to her rescue when she did something really dumb, have her laugh after she finishes, stop to think for a bit and then just come out and say it: "I'm sorry. ...About Sarah. She was your friend and you knew longer than I did and I probably shouldn't have pushed you into having to make that choice. I didn't mean to hurt either of you, but I just panicked and I didn't think she would come with us and I didn't...* sigh * ...I just didn't want the two of you to suffer like me and Jaime did." BOOM! Two/three sentences! That's really all you probably needed for the story to keep going forward while acknowledging previous events. This was THE moment I was referring specifically because it is pretty much the perfect opportunity to have Jane show character development by owning up to what she did and explaining that she really did have good intentions, something that she didn't do in regards Arvo and the Russian situation, but it was completely overlooked.
If I'm completely honest here, the reason I legitimately hate Jane isn't just because she comes off as a self-focused, insensitive, blameless, consequence dodging, manipulative, sociopath (although it certainly helps): its because I genuinely wanted to believe she could change for the better, but the way things went down made it clear there was little hope for her before the moral event horizon.
Look being totally honest with this, clementines story sounds like absolute shit, she got bit by a dog over two years into the apocalypse wh… moreere its much more likely one of the walking corpses that are everywhere bit her, its not surprising everyone thinks its a walker bite. Im not surprised they wernt keen to believe her. Carlos doesn't go "shes definitely bit by a person get rid of her" he and the rest are cautious about wasting supplies on a random person who is likely lying, so they do the logical thing and make her wait till morning, selfish maybe but thats not bad writing particularly for a group two years into a disaster like this. Also looking at the situation 100% fact if something bites your ram and rags it around like that its pretty hard to tell what did it anyway.
What does this have to do with the quote you answered? he said Carlos can't tell the difference between Human mouth and Dog mouth which he's right about it.
All I got from that was...Sarah died...the writing did not do her justice...fuck Jane. Jane was not to blame for her death. In the mobile home, Sarah was of course traumatized due to Carlos eating a lead sandwich. Jane was right to urge that Sarah be left...because sooner or later Sarah was going to get people killed. Luke would have died if Jane and Clementine had not shown up...that is a fact. He was too beat up to get out via the skylight himself...and he would probably had stayed with Sarah any way.
Sarah's death with the deck collapse...if Luke had seen those walkers...ie being on duty instead of getting him some Jane...guess what? They still would have had to run to the gift shop and fight off those walkers and that door would still have needed something to block it and that deck would still have collapsed.
Since I've got some material left to share, let's talk about one of my "favorite" characters: Jane. Look, I know I tend to rant about a lot … moreof things, especially where characters like her, Sarah, and Arvo are involved, but this is something I've had on my chest for months and I don't think I ever got it off. So, lets's get into the exact nature of my loathing towards Jane:
As I've stated plenty of times before, Jane came off as unintentonally unsympathetic in No Going Back because of the baggage that didn't carry over properly from Amid the Ruins: her absentminded implication that Rebecca could get rid of the baby, trying to repeatedly convince Clementine to give up on the group, being the one who decided to rob and threaten Arvo, making Luke the offer that caused him to shirk his guard duty, her role in both of Sarah's deaths and her abandonment of the group before the final scene, which meant she avoided the brunt of the Russian attack. … [view original content]
What I was trying to suggest there was a series of Author's Saving Throws, where the story addresses a flaw or criticism that may/has caused some concern. In this case, it's Jane's previous mistakes and personality flaws being addressed and/or amended so that she can become a reliable member of the group. In the context of No Going Back, Jane returned to the group to help save them from the Russian Group, whom she is responsible for ticking off. Aside from refusing responsibility for the conflict, everything about Jane's behavior shows that she has some genuine remorse for her actions and she states that she's going to try to change her ways for Clementine's sake. Since her exit in the previous episode left behind a number of negative traits about her, this would include things like considering leaving Clementine and Rebecca in the herd when the latter lost her nerve, her attempts to convince Clementine to give up on the group, trying discourage Clementine to put off looking for the three missing group member, her questionable treatment of Sarah, Arvo, and the yet to be born AJ, when she and Luke caused the whole Observation Deck Defensive, sneaking away from the group after the latest disaster, and her hypocritical methods in general.
All I got from that was...Sarah died...the writing did not do her justice...fuck Jane.
Dang it and I was trying so hard to be neutral about that, too! ...Actually, now that I'm looking back at it, Sarah really didn't get extensively brought up in that post until past the halfway point, so I'm not sure how you got that specific notion from the entire post unless you just really had something against Sarah.
Now as far as she and Sarah are concerned, Jane may not have done the deed herself but she is content to pressure Clementine into leaving Sarah and insists during the walk back that saving her wasn't the right choice because she thinks that Sarah is dangerous, liable to get one of them killed, and uncaring about any of their lives including her own. Seeing as Sarah didn't get anyone killed at this point and in fact subverted all of these things when she warned the group about the herd, Jane made a pretty bold claim that ended up applying more to herself. The fact of the matter is Jane had an indirect hand in both of Sarah's deaths (for some reason) and all that needed to be addressed seeing as Sarah was a member of the main cast since Episode 1 and Jane had been portrayed as willing to throw someone who did little to wrong her under the bus, a trait that goes against such notions as compassion and teamwork. The fact that this wasn't even acknowledge was jarring considering the stories and messages the final episode were trying to get across and I called it a misstep because, like it or not, Jane had a hand in getting a member of the group killed, with little to no remorse displayed over it. Why should I, as a member of the audience, be willing to accept Jane's vow at face value with friendly blood splashed on her hands?
Honestly, the topic of Sarah's death and the many x5 problems it causes was not the intended focus of this but rather how Jane's newfound effort towards kinship and teamwork could've been stronger had certain details been addressed. I'll talk about Sarah at length another day.
In the mobile home, Sarah was of course traumatized due to Carlos eating a lead sandwich. Jane was right to urge that Sarah be left...because sooner or later Sarah was going to get people killed. Luke would have died if Jane and Clementine had not shown up...that is a fact. He was too beat up to get out via the skylight himself...and he would probably had stayed with Sarah any way.
The trailer park is an example of an understandable situation made harsher by what happens later. On it's own, I like it because it shows the contrasting personalities and methods of Clementine, Sarah, and Jane; in hindsight though, it's the first extensive demonstration of Jane's pragmatism and how callous she can seem.
Sarah's death with the deck collapse...if Luke had seen those walkers...ie being on duty instead of getting him some Jane...guess what? They still would have had to run to the gift shop and fight off those walkers and that door would still have needed something to block it and that deck would still have collapsed.
You say that but that doesn't really address the issue here: the point of contention with Jane's part in that scene is that she sparked the setup for that situation, similar to how Ben sparked the deaths of Katjaa and Duck. Because Jane also had to be the one to go save Sarah, who meets the same fate regardless of her or Clementine's choice(for some reason) due to Jane's reluctance and determinate clumsiness, she ends up looking worse than she really needed to given everything that had happened concerning her and Sarah beforehand. It's one of those situations where there's no one perpetrator to the specific problem(Jane distracts Luke, Luke shirks his duty, Herd approaches, Sarah was on deck, Clementine used cannon as barricade, Sarah and Jane were too slow, Herd targets Sarah, Jane doesn't save Sarah), but the preexisting information comes back to single out Jane in the eyes of some.
Really, even if the deck would still have collapsed had they had more time, there are many variables that make it plausible to say the same exact results wouldn't occur:
Sarah could've been inside helping Kenny and Rebecca
Sarah and Jane could have not been as far out as they were
Luke/Jane could've provide Sarah with the gun
the cannon could not have ended up in the exact spot that cause the deck to collapse
Sarah and Jane could've been a lot quicker getting to safety and not fall
Clementine, Bonnie, Mike or even Luke could've grabbed Sarah and/or Jane as they fell
Sarah and/or Jane may not have gotta buried under the rubble
Jane could've had more time to get Sarah out of the rubble
They were all caught with their pants down in the actual context but the slightest deviation could've made all the difference
All I got from that was...Sarah died...the writing did not do her justice...fuck Jane. Jane was not to blame for her death. In the mobile … morehome, Sarah was of course traumatized due to Carlos eating a lead sandwich. Jane was right to urge that Sarah be left...because sooner or later Sarah was going to get people killed. Luke would have died if Jane and Clementine had not shown up...that is a fact. He was too beat up to get out via the skylight himself...and he would probably had stayed with Sarah any way.
Sarah's death with the deck collapse...if Luke had seen those walkers...ie being on duty instead of getting him some Jane...guess what? They still would have had to run to the gift shop and fight off those walkers and that door would still have needed something to block it and that deck would still have collapsed.
What I was trying to suggest there was a series of Author's Saving Throws, where the story addresses a flaw or criticism that may/has caused… more some concern. In this case, it's Jane's previous mistakes and personality flaws being addressed and/or amended so that she can become a reliable member of the group. In the context of No Going Back, Jane returned to the group to help save them from the Russian Group, whom she is responsible for ticking off. Aside from refusing responsibility for the conflict, everything about Jane's behavior shows that she has some genuine remorse for her actions and she states that she's going to try to change her ways for Clementine's sake. Since her exit in the previous episode left behind a number of negative traits about her, this would include things like considering leaving Clementine and Rebecca in the herd when the latter lost her nerve, her attempts to convince Clementine to give up on the group, trying discour… [view original content]
In context: Firewallvolcano came up with the handwave that she simply didn't know what she should do.
I initially subscribe to the idea that she was there out of some form of loyalty to Clementine since she's shown walking up right next to her as Luke is handing out the ammo.
That last part is part of several pieces of evidence that leads me to speculate that there may have been a greater reason for that.
In context: Firewallvolcano came up with the handwave that she simply didn't know what she should do.
I initially subscribe to the idea tha… moret she was there out of some form of loyalty to Clementine since she's shown walking up right next to her as Luke is handing out the ammo.
That last part is part of several pieces of evidence that leads me to speculate that there may have been a greater reason for that.
Sigh... that's another aspect that bothers people. I just brought this up earlier today, but Sarah's death could've been a stronger callback to Shawn's. All you really needed was for Clementine, whose had to do this too many times already, just taking the AK from Bonnie and morosely going Rambo for a bit to take out at least the initial 4 or 5 walkers before putting down Sarah herself since they clearly showed they have a perfect angle for that. Then when Jane rejoins them at the top, Clementine's determinant line would be a one-liner.
Technically speaking, Sarah was almost certainly crushed when Clementine collapsed the rest of the deck, plus it's possible that the group checked before moving on since they have to walk past that rubble on the way out..
So, let's talk a little bit about how Rebecca is the character who even I think is among, if not the worst member of the Cabin Group.
She was introduced as an absolute bitch who isn't just like towards Clementine and Nick, but Alvin as well. Plus, should you stay silent during her first appearance, actually tries to take the gun from Nick so she could presumably execute Clementine on the spot, something Lilly learned was a big no-no when I'm at the controller. She was the number one person against helping Clementine ahead of Nick and arguably Carlos, in which she gets on Alvin's case when he tries to stand up for her and later determinately helps her behind Rebecca's back. While I tried to consistently immerse myself in the game which meant thinking like Clementine would after what has happened over the past 16+ months, Rebecca was probably one of the first times Clementine acted in a cruel manner because I legitimately thought Rebecca was so much of a bitch at the time that basically blackmailing her into getting her attitude in check was the proper response at the time even if I don't know if Clementine would go that far.
Come the second episode, her being vindictively suspicious of Clementine at first before becoming very kind and tender towards her has little to no transition for it, making her change in attitude less natural and more sudden. That was a legitimate problem that couldn't be just ignored by some players, though it is kinda funny how what I consider to be the best episode of the Season is also the one that introduces a few of the problems that later episodes would have, just nowhere near as problematic. I used to think the occasional hatred I've seen for her was a tad unfounded, but looking back on it, it's more like a case of Never Live It Down. Then again, that creepy moment where Clementine got her to zip it in Episode 1 was cathartic enough for me, plus it takes a lot of character to own up to your mistakes/misdeeds and I respect that. For the rest of the episode, Rebecca seeks encouragement from Clementine concerning her stress over her family, before determinately losing Alvin due to a pissin' match between Carver and Kenny.
One of the many things that made Episode 3 feel so bare was the fact that it didn't explain her relationship with Carver so that we would have a better idea of what her dilemma was. As someone who tries to be patient and forgiving of those I think have some good on them, this was an omission that I think hurt her arc quite a bit since it fails to retroactively justify her initial hostility towards Clementine, who she opposed on the grounds that she could be working for Carver. I'd even argue she was less justified than Brie, since her respective villain was several feet above her group and actively out to purge them, while Rebecca is the main reason that Carver both comes after the group and hauls them all back to camp when he catches most of them. With that critique out of the way, she actually gets a fair amount of limelight as a soon-to-be/recently widowed woman who goes through some serious separation anxiety concerning the absence of Alvin, forms something resembling a friendship with Kenny and Sarita, and helps formulate an escape plan at super time using her previous position as a secretary making announcements through the PA system. She eventually gets her payback in the form of a front row seat to Carver's karmic death, where we get this quiet moment where Rebecca walks over to his corpse, slowly kneels down to pick up his pistol, and glances down at him with the same cold expression still on her face. It might just be me, but I think this is another big example as to how her relationship with Carver affects the strength of the story: while this was meant to be something of an empowering moment for Rebecca due to the destroyer of her family being brutally executed, I feel like it wasn't as powerful as it should've been because it wasn't earned as much as it should've been.
In episode 4, she finds Clementine and Jane after they get separated from the rest of her group and has her previous insecurities dug up due to losing her nerve while trying to sneak through the herd and Jane's insensitive comments about the upcoming arrival her baby. After this, she spends the majority of the episode hanging around the Parker's Run statue as everyone else (besides Kenny and Sarah) goes off to prepare for the delivery process. Maybe Clementine could've recalled Christa's own baby during the period where Rebecca was going through labor and have helped with the knowledge she gained from that experience, but this isn't what happens. While I don't think we needed a birthing minigame, Rebecca joined in on what was definitely a serious overarching problem with Season 2: Clementine herself doesn't really matter much to a certain degree, to the point that pretty much everything she should have a personal investment in feels like it was either downplayed, cut short, or simply moved in favor of the likes of Kenny and, to a slightly lesser extent, Jane. While I do like the few conversations they have together because it really serves to show how humble Rebecca has become sense Clementine was first brought to the Cabin, she spends the rest of the episode in the company of Kenny, who is recruited on Bonnie's behalf to help guide Rebecca through her pregnancy using what knowledge he has from when Duck was being born. After a close call, a few funny lines, and a stressful birth period, Rebecca gets a few hours to spend clinging to her baby as her health declines due to complications involving the birthing process and the oncoming cold weather. She ultimately serves as the fuse that sparks the blastout with the Russian Group as she passes away sitting on a tire desperately holding onto her baby as the group talks and later argues with the returning Arvo, as her walker ends up being headshot by Clementine/Kenny in order to protect the baby.
And in episode 5, the group all gather around her deader body and mourn her loss after the firefight with the Russian Group ends, which also ends this sequence when Kenny attacks Arvo due to being angry about Rebecca's death. Not to mention that out of all the Cabin Group members who had died, only Rebecca and Alvin are portrayed in a positive light at this point due to putting her trust in him and being the parents of the baby who would motivate Kenny to behave much more actively aggressive towards friend and foe alike. While Kenny and/or Jane's fate end up being sealed with his well-being acting as a tipping point, AJ goes on alongside Clementine to survive the Season and is expected to be a recurring element in Season 3.
The fact of the matter is that some players never forgave due to her 180 from her bitchy attitude. At least she, Nick, and Sarah were definitely established with the intention to develop their storylines in mind, but the way they ended up being executed was mixed. I have yet to see anymore than one person(zombiebonnie) say they legitimately liked her and she had the most complete(if a bit by the numbers) storyline of the three. And even then, "Who's yo Baby-Daddy" isn't exactly the most attractive or politically correct basis for a character. Maybe it's a sign that I should just go back and examine her character more thoroughly, but the only keywords I associate with her at the moment are Pregnancy, Family, and Vulnerability.
You bring up some interesting points about Rebecca's character, especially with how the sudden transition from advocating a wounded little girl's death over a suspected walker bite, to suddenly developing into a motherly figure who awkwardly brushes off the behavior she has exhibited last night.
I personally think that her sudden shift in behavior was due to how the writers from Episode 2 and onward had realized that they have made Rebecca far too unlikable for players to want to know why she acted the way she did, so they basically did a 180 on her personality overnight and hoped for the best, as many newcomers were advocating for her death in the first meeting.
Problem is there's no clear resolution on how harshly Rebecca treat Clementine on their first meeting, beyond blackmailing her, because come the next episode we're suddenly friends now and everything is all forgiven and forgotten. It would have been much better had Rebecca's animosity with Clementine continued the next day, and we were given the chance to call her out on her horrid attitude in front of everyone in the group. Afterwards, Rebecca can then apologies for her behavior and promises to treat Clementine like a person.
But instead, we have a rather forced and clumsy relationship with Rebecca where we're meant to ignore the worst first impressions made in the story and bond with her and the unborn child due to the subplot of Clementine's relationship with the missing Christa and the presumably deceased unborn child, whereas even that had little to no payoff in the end either.
So, let's talk a little bit about how Rebecca is the character who even I think is among, if not the worst member of the Cabin Group.
She… more was introduced as an absolute bitch who isn't just like towards Clementine and Nick, but Alvin as well. Plus, should you stay silent during her first appearance, actually tries to take the gun from Nick so she could presumably execute Clementine on the spot, something Lilly learned was a big no-no when I'm at the controller. She was the number one person against helping Clementine ahead of Nick and arguably Carlos, in which she gets on Alvin's case when he tries to stand up for her and later determinately helps her behind Rebecca's back. While I tried to consistently immerse myself in the game which meant thinking like Clementine would after what has happened over the past 16+ months, Rebecca was probably one of the first times Clementine acted in a cruel manner because I legitimately thought Rebecca was… [view original content]
I think the writing from Episode 1-3 was great however, in episode 4 it seemed like they wanted players to choose Kenny, Jane or trusting no one. Also forcing us to try and bond with Jane even though she was never appealing to me was kind of a ok idea. Her trying to teach Clem to fight off walkers is a good idea but you think Molly or Lee would've shown her since I feel they are better fighters than Jane. Episode 5's writing for the ending was great in the Kenny and Alone endings. I just don't like Jane at all she doesn't seem dependable or trustworthy since she seems to take off when something goes wrong.
S2...I do love it, but man does it have issues....
Episode 1...Omid is killed...Christa looses baby...Clementine and Christa are separated emotionally and physically....Clementine is chased by a guy who has questionable motives...Clementine leads him to his death...almost drowns...befriends a dog..finds beans in a trash bin...gets attacked by the dog...gets dog impaled....almost eaten...saved....dropped and accused of being bitten by a walker....shot at...a nasty woman advocates getting rid of her...placed in a cold ass shack...forced to do own surgery...has to fight off walker...gets some food..told she can stay..bitchy pregnant woman tells her she should go...
I mean holy shit...amazing the writers did not have her loose her hat...you know...just to drive home the fact that Clementine is in deep shit.
Episode 2 Pete gets killed...either you are with him...just to remind you that getting bit sucks...or you are with Nick who gets drunk..either way Clementine gets back in time for the big bad Carver to appear...amazingly he leaves and was alone to begin with....group flees to the mountains...honest and compassionate guy on bridge...too gentle for this world is killed...Kenny got lucky..real lucky...but we are never going to tell you how neener neener...find out kindly older gay man's partner was the one on the bridge luls...strange woman..peeking around...let her go...walkers...Carver and pals show up with that women...idiot Kenny gets Walter killed...just to let you know that kind people need to die to drive plot.
Episode 3. Stalag 13....Carver is so unbelievable as a villain that the series is really hurt...honestly...who would follow this guy...Reggie thrown off roof....no grumbling...prisoner abuse and forced labor camps...isn't our new society grand? Do not worry about cabin group...no more character development for them...Kenny is back. Mike...never learn anything about him...this bad guy is taken care of by the end of the episode...leaving 2 episodes as aftermath plots. Bye Carlos and Sarita and ultimately Nick.
Episode 4 birth...and death...leave Sarah...or save Sarah...so she can be crushed by a falling deck...just to prove you cannot save everyone. Rob or don't rob...Arvo is a dick...shootout.
Episode 5. Kenny needs slapped around...abuse of prisoners is ok...because it is Kenny....camp fire scene, season 2 suddenly remembers that it is these human moments that make TWD so special. Luke, Clementine and Bonnie go swimming....Luke drowns....more prisoner abuse ...Jane may be nuts too. Mike and Bonnie...you fucker....our daughter is shot...Kenny and Jane suddenly are argumentative. Ok...no one knows were Wellington is...lol it is in Ohio...not close and hopefully the bridges are still up...showdown...worst plan ever is a skillfully elegant way of causing a final fight that has been brewing since 2 scenes earlier...
There is so much wrong in season two that it blunts the things that are good.
Story pacing is essential...if you throw so much at the player...it begins to lessen the impacts. You need to create a cadre of likable and sympathetic characters to care about. In season one you had Clementine and Lee...Kenny and his family...even detrimental characters like Carley and Lilly had characters that seemed genuine....it is supposed to sorta suck when we loose a fellow survivor. ..Carlos...not going to miss him...Sarita...other than being someone important to Kenny...we know nothing about her...if the writers do not create compelling characteristics...then how is a player to bond and be sad when they are lost?
This is like they took a first draft of a story and never bothered to fix anything about it...and in fact decided it was ok to drop plot threads just because.
The season suffers not because it is weaker than s1...there are good ideas in s2..but they forget all the things that made season one great....it is it's humanity and the character moments that gives the player a reason to truly care.
Ok I agree with you about numerous points such as Sarah, and the Arvo situation. I mean this season felt like the show where they force characters who are minor to feel like they have major role such as Arvo, Sarah, Mike, Jane, and many more. I do however feel like because they were writing a story around a kid character it was tougher to come up with truly impactful desicions. Although Clem is a Teen now and I feel like she can do so much more to defend herself and her friends! Let's go Season 3 lol to excited lol
S2...I do love it, but man does it have issues....
Episode 1...Omid is killed...Christa looses baby...Clementine and Christa are separate… mored emotionally and physically....Clementine is chased by a guy who has questionable motives...Clementine leads him to his death...almost drowns...befriends a dog..finds beans in a trash bin...gets attacked by the dog...gets dog impaled....almost eaten...saved....dropped and accused of being bitten by a walker....shot at...a nasty woman advocates getting rid of her...placed in a cold ass shack...forced to do own surgery...has to fight off walker...gets some food..told she can stay..bitchy pregnant woman tells her she should go...
I mean holy shit...amazing the writers did not have her loose her hat...you know...just to drive home the fact that Clementine is in deep shit.
Episode 2 Pete gets killed...either you are with him...just to remind you that getting bit sucks...or you are with Nick who gets dru… [view original content]
You bring up some interesting points about Rebecca's character, especially with how the sudden transition from advocating a wounded little girl's death over a suspected walker bite, to suddenly developing into a motherly figure who awkwardly brushes off the behavior she has exhibited last night.
The funny thing about this writeup is that it came from a different reply meant for one of the mods saying she was one of their least favorite characters. Halfway through, I realized how long it was getting and decided to continue with the purpose of posting it here.
Problem is there's no clear resolution on how harshly Rebecca treat Clementine on their first meeting, beyond blackmailing her, because come the next episode we're suddenly friends now and everything is all forgiven and forgotten. It would have been much better had Rebecca's animosity with Clementine continued the next day, and we were given the chance to call her out on her horrid attitude in front of everyone in the group.
Yeah and unfortunately, they did it too fast to appease the fanbase rather than using it as a gradual development. This would also become a major problem I had with Jane going into No Going Back, but I think I've already talked about that.
But instead, we have a rather forced and clumsy relationship with Rebecca where we're meant to ignore the worst first impressions made in the story and bond with her and the unborn child due to the subplot of Clementine's relationship with the missing Christa and the presumably deceased unborn child, whereas even that had little to no payoff in the end either.
You bring up some interesting points about Rebecca's character, especially with how the sudden transition from advocating a wounded little g… moreirl's death over a suspected walker bite, to suddenly developing into a motherly figure who awkwardly brushes off the behavior she has exhibited last night.
I personally think that her sudden shift in behavior was due to how the writers from Episode 2 and onward had realized that they have made Rebecca far too unlikable for players to want to know why she acted the way she did, so they basically did a 180 on her personality overnight and hoped for the best, as many newcomers were advocating for her death in the first meeting.
Problem is there's no clear resolution on how harshly Rebecca treat Clementine on their first meeting, beyond blackmailing her, because come the next episode we're suddenly friends now and everything is all forgiven and forgotten. It would have been much better had Rebecca's an… [view original content]
I think the writing from Episode 1-3 was great however, in episode 4 it seemed like they wanted players to choose Kenny, Jane or trusting no one. Also forcing us to try and bond with Jane even though she was never appealing to me was kind of a ok idea.
Yeah, while Amid the Ruins was actually a really good episode for the most part, the things it did wrong were serious signs that they just gave up on telling a cohesive story and made a mad dash for the finale to have a WWE Championship Match and the episode/Season suffered for it.
One testament to that polarization is the fact that Jane is a complex, morally thought provoking character but she had too many black marks on her by the end of it due to her unlikable traits outnumbering the redeeming ones.
Her trying to teach Clem to fight off walkers is a good idea but you think Molly or Lee would've shown her since I feel they are better fighters than Jane.
To be fair, Molly was a one-shot who barely interacted with Clementine before leaving for another adventure from what I remember. Also, I can't really imagine Lee giving Clementine fighting lessons paying off that well given the inherent differences between the two.
I just don't like Jane at all she doesn't seem dependable or trustworthy since she seems to take off when something goes wrong.
Yeah, Jane is someone I hate on a personal level for those same basic reasons and then some.
I think the writing from Episode 1-3 was great however, in episode 4 it seemed like they wanted players to choose Kenny, Jane or trusting no… more one. Also forcing us to try and bond with Jane even though she was never appealing to me was kind of a ok idea. Her trying to teach Clem to fight off walkers is a good idea but you think Molly or Lee would've shown her since I feel they are better fighters than Jane. Episode 5's writing for the ending was great in the Kenny and Alone endings. I just don't like Jane at all she doesn't seem dependable or trustworthy since she seems to take off when something goes wrong.
There is so much wrong in season two that it blunts the things that are good.
Story pacing is essential...if you throw so much at the player...it begins to lessen the impacts. You need to create a cadre of likable and sympathetic characters to care about.
it is supposed to sorta suck when we loose a fellow survivor.
if the writers do not create compelling characteristics...then how is a player to bond and be sad when they are lost?
This is like they took a first draft of a story and never bothered to fix anything about it...and in fact decided it was ok to drop plot threads just because.
The season suffers not because it is weaker than s1...there are good ideas in s2..but they forget all the things that made season one great....it is it's humanity and the character moments that gives the player a reason to truly care.
This. All of this.
Also, I love how you talked about the Season as a whole in the space I talk about a single topic.
S2...I do love it, but man does it have issues....
Episode 1...Omid is killed...Christa looses baby...Clementine and Christa are separate… mored emotionally and physically....Clementine is chased by a guy who has questionable motives...Clementine leads him to his death...almost drowns...befriends a dog..finds beans in a trash bin...gets attacked by the dog...gets dog impaled....almost eaten...saved....dropped and accused of being bitten by a walker....shot at...a nasty woman advocates getting rid of her...placed in a cold ass shack...forced to do own surgery...has to fight off walker...gets some food..told she can stay..bitchy pregnant woman tells her she should go...
I mean holy shit...amazing the writers did not have her loose her hat...you know...just to drive home the fact that Clementine is in deep shit.
Episode 2 Pete gets killed...either you are with him...just to remind you that getting bit sucks...or you are with Nick who gets dru… [view original content]
I mean, I don't think anyone is responsible for the Christa connection, it's a pretty intuitive connection to make as they are two adult black women with conflicting feelings towards Clementine and are/were pregnant, and I think people would have just rather had Christa than Rebecca because we already have a connection with Christa and her conflicted feelings make more sense with Omid's death as context, not so for Rebecca.
You bring up some interesting points about Rebecca's character, especially with how the sudden transition from advocating a wounded little g… moreirl's death over a suspected walker bite, to suddenly developing into a motherly figure who awkwardly brushes off the behavior she has exhibited last night.
The funny thing about this writeup is that it came from a different reply meant for one of the mods saying she was one of their least favorite characters. Halfway through, I realized how long it was getting and decided to continue with the purpose of posting it here.
Problem is there's no clear resolution on how harshly Rebecca treat Clementine on their first meeting, beyond blackmailing her, because come the next episode we're suddenly friends now and everything is all forgiven and forgotten. It would have been much better had Rebecca's animosity with Clementine continued the next day, and we were given the chance to call her out on her… [view original content]
I mean, I don't think anyone is responsible for the Christa connection, it's a pretty intuitive connection to make as they are two adult bla… moreck women with conflicting feelings towards Clementine and are/were pregnant, and I think people would have just rather had Christa than Rebecca because we already have a connection with Christa and her conflicted feelings make more sense with Omid's death as context, not so for Rebecca.
Posted this in another thread...but it is a way to fix the end of the game.
Not feeling the best...had a hell of an evening...but here goes.
Before the apocalypse, Jane like a lot of us...takes things for granted...including family. The apocalypse has a way of changing people. She suddenly became horrifyingly aware that you can not take loved ones for granted. The loss of parents and friends, left her Jaime. Her younger sister.
Jane took it upon herself to step up and keep her sister alive, it is possible that she felt guilt over how she treated family that Jaime became her way of atonement for her past.
Jane through her new found sense of purpose she drags her sister through several states. Each and every day she kept her sister alive physically...but every day, she sees a part of her sister die inside. Jaime perhaps had witnessed their parent's deaths and with the death of most of the family and all she ever knew...Jaime made the decision that she wanted to die.
Finally it came to a point where Jaime was done running and no matter what Jane said or begged, she was not going to jump to safety. She made Jane have to decide whether to leave her or die with her.
Jane left her, this act broke Jane. Now her outlook became...go it alone, if you let people join or join a group...you are just going to get your heart broken.
Jane became a great survivalist, but over time loneliness becomes it's own death. This is probably part of the reason Jane was checking out Carver's camp.
It was Clementine that made Jane help the group. Clementine reminded her of a younger Jaime, except that she had a vibrant will to survive like Jane.
To Jane, anything that endangers the group is suspect and is better left behind. A lot of Jane's issue with Sarah was that she had seen the same weaknesses in her own sister. Fearing the inevitable pain of loss, she tries to get Clementine to leave her.
Now this is the part where I point out the missed opportunities the writers missed. Ok Sarah's death at the deck. If she could have been saved by Jane, how would that have changed things. Would Jane have learned that helping Sarah was not only her job, but everyone else's...and if they had started to see change in Sarah...a bonding process between Jane the seemingly cold hearted loner...and a late blooming Sarah would have been a triumph of humanity in a dark apocalypse.
Jane and Kenny...mostly throughout the last two episodes, Jane is sympathetic to Kenny...encouraging Clementine to try and bring him back, she even helped smooth over a disagreement between Kenny and Mike. But then the writers give up and decide that there needs to be a fight for Clementine's heart. Ok that is a valid idea...but the way the writers decide to do it is pure bullshit.
Making Clementine and Kenny think that the baby was grabbed by walkers and pushing Kenny over the edge....
Wow...so if you kill Kenny because you know Jane would never knowingly let AJ die..you are then betrayed big time when you find out that she had put him in a car for safe keeping to make you side with her.....wait what? It made no fucking sense.
Before that scene Jane was depicted as level headed if a bit aloof, but not a maniac. That was Kenny.
So ok you say...the writer took a misstep and fumbled the ending...how would you have fixed it to redeem Jane in the eyes of the players.
The ending would have been at the construction site.
Mike,Bonnie and Arvo try to steal the truck...Clementine is shot. When she comes to..Mike and Bonnie are tied up...Jane is cleaning your wound. You find out Kenny killed Arvo...understandable considering he shot Clementine.
Now he wants to execute Mike and Bonnie. Now you remember how Jane has told you that you needed to help Kenny....based on things you have said and done in the previous episodes...one of several things happens.
worst case...Kenny angrily shoots Bonnie and starts to aim for Mike when Jane shoots him. You then have to decide if you forgive Jane or go your own way.
middle case Kenny starts to beat a tied up Mike, Jane tries to stop him...Kenny and Jane fight...you decide what happens next. If you let him kill her, you can try to talk him down from killing Mike and Bonnie and he leaves, filled with shame for what he has become.....or you kill him and Jane survives and your choice is what to do with Mike and Bonnie
best...your words and actions have helped...he starts to beat on Mike and Jane...you are able to talk him down...depending on how persuasive you were throughout...he either leaves or he stays with you and Jane...you can even let Mike and Bonnie stay...Mike leaves because of Arvo...but Bonnie stays ...and helps Kenny.
There is so much wrong in season two that it blunts the things that are good.
Story pacing is essential...if you throw so much at the… more player...it begins to lessen the impacts. You need to create a cadre of likable and sympathetic characters to care about.
it is supposed to sorta suck when we loose a fellow survivor.
if the writers do not create compelling characteristics...then how is a player to bond and be sad when they are lost?
This is like they took a first draft of a story and never bothered to fix anything about it...and in fact decided it was ok to drop plot threads just because.
The season suffers not because it is weaker than s1...there are good ideas in s2..but they forget all the things that made season one great....it is it's humanity and the character moments that gives the player a reason to truly care.
This. All of this.
Also, I love how you talked about the Season as a whole in the space I talk about a single topic.
No extensive critique this time, though I have at least two planned. Just wanted to say this:
Season 2 drawing material from Season 1 was a decision that hurt it more than helped and it opened it up to a lot of negativity as a result.
Well said! I'm just glad that I got to kill Kenny once and for all. Bringing back Kenny was the most stupid move in the whole series. Lilly might not have been liked as much but her return made far more sense since in one playthrough she drives off with the Rv and in the other she is left on the road side as opposed to Kenny's scenarios where he had no real way of escape.
I strongly disagree. The writers loved Kenny too much, in my opinion.
As @DabigRG was saying, pretty much everything Kenny said was prove… moren right, which is the only reason why you are able to give the reasons to defend him.
They loved Kenny enough to bring him back from season 1 with only a "I got lucky." They loved Kenny enough to recon their original plan to make him an antagonist. They loved Kenny enough to focus most of their energy on developing him as a character for a second time, energy that should have been spent developing any number of their other original supporting characters, or hell, even their protagonist Clementine. They loved Kenny enough to give him a tragic ending no matter what you choose. Happy endings do not determine how much a writer prefers a character, thoughtful endings do. It's why Lee died in a jewelry store and didn't live happily ever after. And arguably Kenny has the best ending of everyone, able to redee… [view original content]
Well said! I'm just glad that I got to kill Kenny once and for all. Bringing back Kenny was the most stupid move in the whole series. Lilly … moremight not have been liked as much but her return made far more sense since in one playthrough she drives off with the Rv and in the other she is left on the road side as opposed to Kenny's scenarios where he had no real way of escape.
Because I'm having trouble actually getting my next two critiques done, I thought I'd test the waters by posing a query related to one of them: Who is the worst spotlight hog-- Kenny or Jane? Or perhaps a third one that's not as noticeable.
In season 3, I will pretend Clem is 18. I was so upset when I saw she was 14. I think that the season 3 will be much better than 2. S2 was a polarizing season compared to the first. We need more epic Lee type moments.
Because I'm having trouble actually getting my next two critiques done, I thought I'd test the waters by posing a query related to one of them: Who is the worst spotlight hog-- Kenny or Jane? Or perhaps a third one that's not as noticeable.
Well besides the fumble with Omid and Christa, I liked the tone and setting of episode 1. Clem talking about Lee and Omid and trying to survive without Lee.
Episode 4 or 5 was just bad. The whole Jane bonding theme, the illusion of choice with Sarita, Mike shining, then turning into a baby. The Jane /Kenny fight.
Any particular reason you ranked one above two? (ignoring the obvious quote because why not)
Did you know there was a topic where you could rank all of the episodes?
Well besides the fumble with Omid and Christa, I liked the tone and setting of episode 1. Clem talking about Lee and Omid and trying to surv… moreive without Lee.
Episode 4 or 5 was just bad. The whole Jane bonding theme, the illusion of choice with Sarita, Mike shining, then turning into a baby. The Jane /Kenny fight.
Comments
Excuse me @Soundwasteland, but I need to ask: What was the true purpose of this thread?
Top notch comment!
The length might prevent some from reading.
How did I miss this comment? This always happens when threads get shoved off of the main subforum page. Anyway, I could not agree any more with your assessment here. Excellent, well-thought out post!
I noticed people say Carlos is a "bad" doctor when he could just be inexperienced with bites. What if he were in Carver's group since the beginning?
Yeah, that's what happens when you merge several previous comments with some new material to weave a critique.
Because it's relatively new! And thanks!
True. Thought one would assume he would have examined at least one bite victim in his time. Also, there is also the alternative interpretation that he either couldn't tell because of the dog's thrashing(as @firewallvolcano mentions up above) or he did know the difference and just didn't trust Clementine enough to waste supplies and just turn her loose if she was in league with Carver.
Well, that should've been explored in Episode 3! Would've made both of them and that episode less bare. Plus, the idea of Sarah essentially being Movie!Deadshot's daughter is hilarious.
Since I've got some material left to share, let's talk about one of my "favorite" characters: Jane. Look, I know I tend to rant about a lot of things, especially where characters like her, Sarah, and Arvo are involved, but this is something I've had on my chest for months and I don't think I ever got it off. So, lets's get into the exact nature of my loathing towards Jane:
As I've stated plenty of times before, Jane came off as unintentonally unsympathetic in No Going Back because of the baggage that didn't carry over properly from Amid the Ruins: her absentminded implication that Rebecca could get rid of the baby, trying to repeatedly convince Clementine to give up on the group, being the one who decided to rob and threaten Arvo, making Luke the offer that caused him to shirk his guard duty, her role in both of Sarah's deaths and her abandonment of the group before the final scene, which meant she avoided the brunt of the Russian attack. And that's not counting her general attitude, hypocrisy, self concerned morality, and things like indirectly cheating Bonnie. The fact that most of this is water under the bridge in this episode despite the horrible connotations of some just didn't feel right; the only true exceptions are Jane's apology to Clementine for leaving, Luke and Bonnie's visual skepticism towards her initial reappearance and a complainer is wrong moment with Kenny("Don't try and pin this on me.").
I know this is the wrong thread for this, but its worth noting: An aspect of her character that I thought was a bit unconventional was her relationship with Mike or rather lackthereof. I understand that two characters who are introduced in the same manner don't need to be linked for the rest of their screentime, but you would think there would be some connection. From what I gather, Mike mentioned that Jane vouching for Kenny's escape plan to walk through a herd was the first thing he ever heard her say--and it was crazy and stupid. I at least got the vibe that they respected each other enough to stay out of each other's way while in the pin and agree with the other's opinion of what the rational course of action would be. So, having them at least acknowledge each other's presence would work fine enough. Another detail I didn't notice until recently was that after finishing talking with Kenny in time for Clementine to come clean his wound, Jane walks away to join in on a conversation with Mike and Arvo. I would kill to know what these three were discussing at the time, since not only is it one of the few times Mike and Jane interact with each other, but Arvo is also apparently part of the conversation. I think it would have been a great oppurtunity to not only develop Mike's friendship with Arvo and growing fear of Kenny, but it could also try to fix/justify a serious problem with Jane's character....
Back on topic, having Jane and Mike discuss having Arvo along and their role in it could've help address this issue by having Jane and Arvo actually interact towards each other's presence. While she didn't necessarily disagree with killing Arvo, Jane seemed to think he was useful enough to use for supplies and later gets angry with Kenny for beating him so badly; Arvo actually having a chance to be around Jane without Clementine and Kenny would also address whether he still holds a grudge against her, avoids contact out of fear, or if Clementine and Kenny simply overshadowed what little beef he had with her and he is mutually indifferent. Seeing as Arvo wasn't exactly in a speaking mood at the time, I would like to think Clementine popping into the conversation(kinda like with Rebecca and Sarita) would potentially have Jane officially apologize to both for starting the conflict with the Russians in the first place. As unlikely as it may sound, Jane was consistently softened around Clementine so I would've liked to think she would admit her wrongdoings when she isn't feeling pressured or on trial.
Another scene I expected to be capitalized on for this purpose is the campfire. Recall, this is supposed to be the big breather moment after the confusion and danger of the preceding and following scenes and pretty much everyone besides Arvo is just taking the time to relax, drink, and laugh a bit. Jane and Kenny both hang around the outskirts of the area to brood, which leads Bonnie to give Clementine the bottle to invite them both over. While Kenny's sequence addresses some issues surrounding his behavior from the previous episodes and has a few determinate results based on your choices, Jane once again falls back into talking about Jaime (in a happy manner this time) before joining everyone else around the campfire while snarking that she feels like she signed a contract.
This is unfortunately the scene where I officially started outright hating Jane, which isn't helped by the conversation after she joins the campfire. The reason this is is because, as you probably got memorized by now, Sarah was my favorite character of the Season and her "canon" death is my worst moment of the season for a plethora of reasons. From a writing standpoint, this scene is supposed to be establishing a better connection amongst the remaining group members by addressing certain issues about their past actions and revealing some hidden demons; it's also supposed to be reassurance that when Jane said she was gonna make this ' thing' work, she actually meant it. However, the fact that the issue of her role in both of Sarah's deaths is completely glossed over, in direct spite of the fact that she was just talking fondly about the same sister who was the reason she was so discriminating of Sarah to begin with, was not only a spit in the face, but also a crucial misstep to properly redeeming Jane as a new member of the group.
We're supposed to believe that Jane's changed for the better, that she's putting her old ways behind her, that she really wants be a team player, but this is probably one of ( if not the) biggest reasons why Sarah's "canon" death specifically hurt the story more than anything else moving forward, to the point that it's one of the only times I have to unforgivably call something as just plain bad writing. I wanted to see Jane reform, I wanted to help her be able to join the group, and I wanted her to be everyone's friend (especially Sarah's), but that situation created this distrust and uncomfortable baggage around her character. Now, the classic wildcard/antihero/loner tropes that precede her character development would be fine on their own, but combined with a complete failure to adequately address the disproportionate death of a character who, lets be honest here, was tender/emotional to a fault, actively didn't want to ever hurt anyone, didn't even do anything to Jane(which I actually would've been fine with, but that's a topic for another time...), and, as a foil/counterpart, represented a certain aspect of Clementine's character that should've been treated with far more respect(along with all the other parts of her character, but again, another time...), they made her the most unsympathetic of the final seven members of ClementineKenny's group in my opinion.
The obvious solution to this, and by extension a lot of the negative flaws I listed at the beginning, should've been a no brainer: while Jane is opening up about her feelings under the influence of alcohol, have her acknowledge these things. She's laughing and looking back on a time Jaime came to her rescue when she did something really dumb, have her laugh after she finishes, stop to think for a bit and then just come out and say it: "I'm sorry. ...About Sarah. She was your friend and you knew longer than I did and I probably shouldn't have pushed you into having to make that choice. I didn't mean to hurt either of you, but I just panicked and I didn't think she would come with us and I didn't...* sigh * ...I just didn't want the two of you to suffer like me and Jaime did." BOOM! Two/three sentences! That's really all you probably needed for the story to keep going forward while acknowledging previous events. This was THE moment I was referring specifically because it is pretty much the perfect opportunity to have Jane show character development by owning up to what she did and explaining that she really did have good intentions, something that she didn't do in regards Arvo and the Russian situation, but it was completely overlooked.
If I'm completely honest here, the reason I legitimately hate Jane isn't just because she comes off as a self-focused, insensitive, blameless, consequence dodging, manipulative, sociopath (although it certainly helps): its because I genuinely wanted to believe she could change for the better, but the way things went down made it clear there was little hope for her before the moral event horizon.
He was giving a relatively plausible explanation for why that is.
All I got from that was...Sarah died...the writing did not do her justice...fuck Jane. Jane was not to blame for her death. In the mobile home, Sarah was of course traumatized due to Carlos eating a lead sandwich. Jane was right to urge that Sarah be left...because sooner or later Sarah was going to get people killed. Luke would have died if Jane and Clementine had not shown up...that is a fact. He was too beat up to get out via the skylight himself...and he would probably had stayed with Sarah any way.
Sarah's death with the deck collapse...if Luke had seen those walkers...ie being on duty instead of getting him some Jane...guess what? They still would have had to run to the gift shop and fight off those walkers and that door would still have needed something to block it and that deck would still have collapsed.
What I was trying to suggest there was a series of Author's Saving Throws, where the story addresses a flaw or criticism that may/has caused some concern. In this case, it's Jane's previous mistakes and personality flaws being addressed and/or amended so that she can become a reliable member of the group. In the context of No Going Back, Jane returned to the group to help save them from the Russian Group, whom she is responsible for ticking off. Aside from refusing responsibility for the conflict, everything about Jane's behavior shows that she has some genuine remorse for her actions and she states that she's going to try to change her ways for Clementine's sake. Since her exit in the previous episode left behind a number of negative traits about her, this would include things like considering leaving Clementine and Rebecca in the herd when the latter lost her nerve, her attempts to convince Clementine to give up on the group, trying discourage Clementine to put off looking for the three missing group member, her questionable treatment of Sarah, Arvo, and the yet to be born AJ, when she and Luke caused the whole Observation Deck Defensive, sneaking away from the group after the latest disaster, and her hypocritical methods in general.
Dang it and I was trying so hard to be neutral about that, too! ...Actually, now that I'm looking back at it, Sarah really didn't get extensively brought up in that post until past the halfway point, so I'm not sure how you got that specific notion from the entire post unless you just really had something against Sarah.
Now as far as she and Sarah are concerned, Jane may not have done the deed herself but she is content to pressure Clementine into leaving Sarah and insists during the walk back that saving her wasn't the right choice because she thinks that Sarah is dangerous, liable to get one of them killed, and uncaring about any of their lives including her own. Seeing as Sarah didn't get anyone killed at this point and in fact subverted all of these things when she warned the group about the herd, Jane made a pretty bold claim that ended up applying more to herself. The fact of the matter is Jane had an indirect hand in both of Sarah's deaths (for some reason) and all that needed to be addressed seeing as Sarah was a member of the main cast since Episode 1 and Jane had been portrayed as willing to throw someone who did little to wrong her under the bus, a trait that goes against such notions as compassion and teamwork. The fact that this wasn't even acknowledge was jarring considering the stories and messages the final episode were trying to get across and I called it a misstep because, like it or not, Jane had a hand in getting a member of the group killed, with little to no remorse displayed over it. Why should I, as a member of the audience, be willing to accept Jane's vow at face value with friendly blood splashed on her hands?
Honestly, the topic of Sarah's death and the many x5 problems it causes was not the intended focus of this but rather how Jane's newfound effort towards kinship and teamwork could've been stronger had certain details been addressed. I'll talk about Sarah at length another day.
The trailer park is an example of an understandable situation made harsher by what happens later. On it's own, I like it because it shows the contrasting personalities and methods of Clementine, Sarah, and Jane; in hindsight though, it's the first extensive demonstration of Jane's pragmatism and how callous she can seem.
You say that but that doesn't really address the issue here: the point of contention with Jane's part in that scene is that she sparked the setup for that situation, similar to how Ben sparked the deaths of Katjaa and Duck. Because Jane also had to be the one to go save Sarah, who meets the same fate regardless of her or Clementine's choice(for some reason) due to Jane's reluctance and determinate clumsiness, she ends up looking worse than she really needed to given everything that had happened concerning her and Sarah beforehand. It's one of those situations where there's no one perpetrator to the specific problem(Jane distracts Luke, Luke shirks his duty, Herd approaches, Sarah was on deck, Clementine used cannon as barricade, Sarah and Jane were too slow, Herd targets Sarah, Jane doesn't save Sarah), but the preexisting information comes back to single out Jane in the eyes of some.
Really, even if the deck would still have collapsed had they had more time, there are many variables that make it plausible to say the same exact results wouldn't occur:
Sarah could've been inside helping Kenny and Rebecca
Sarah and Jane could have not been as far out as they were
Luke/Jane could've provide Sarah with the gun
the cannon could not have ended up in the exact spot that cause the deck to collapse
Sarah and Jane could've been a lot quicker getting to safety and not fall
Clementine, Bonnie, Mike or even Luke could've grabbed Sarah and/or Jane as they fell
Sarah and/or Jane may not have gotta buried under the rubble
Jane could've had more time to get Sarah out of the rubble
They were all caught with their pants down in the actual context but the slightest deviation could've made all the difference
Actually why was Sarah out on the deck? That does not make any sense.
In context: Firewallvolcano came up with the handwave that she simply didn't know what she should do.
I initially subscribe to the idea that she was there out of some form of loyalty to Clementine since she's shown walking up right next to her as Luke is handing out the ammo.
That last part is part of several pieces of evidence that leads me to speculate that there may have been a greater reason for that.
You know who the biggest monster is in S2? Clementine..all these pals of her's die and she does not destroy the brain....scumbag Clementine
Sigh... that's another aspect that bothers people. I just brought this up earlier today, but Sarah's death could've been a stronger callback to Shawn's. All you really needed was for Clementine, whose had to do this too many times already, just taking the AK from Bonnie and morosely going Rambo for a bit to take out at least the initial 4 or 5 walkers before putting down Sarah herself since they clearly showed they have a perfect angle for that. Then when Jane rejoins them at the top, Clementine's determinant line would be a one-liner.
Technically speaking, Sarah was almost certainly crushed when Clementine collapsed the rest of the deck, plus it's possible that the group checked before moving on since they have to walk past that rubble on the way out..
So, let's talk a little bit about how Rebecca is the character who even I think is among, if not the worst member of the Cabin Group.
She was introduced as an absolute bitch who isn't just like towards Clementine and Nick, but Alvin as well. Plus, should you stay silent during her first appearance, actually tries to take the gun from Nick so she could presumably execute Clementine on the spot, something Lilly learned was a big no-no when I'm at the controller. She was the number one person against helping Clementine ahead of Nick and arguably Carlos, in which she gets on Alvin's case when he tries to stand up for her and later determinately helps her behind Rebecca's back. While I tried to consistently immerse myself in the game which meant thinking like Clementine would after what has happened over the past 16+ months, Rebecca was probably one of the first times Clementine acted in a cruel manner because I legitimately thought Rebecca was so much of a bitch at the time that basically blackmailing her into getting her attitude in check was the proper response at the time even if I don't know if Clementine would go that far.
Come the second episode, her being vindictively suspicious of Clementine at first before becoming very kind and tender towards her has little to no transition for it, making her change in attitude less natural and more sudden. That was a legitimate problem that couldn't be just ignored by some players, though it is kinda funny how what I consider to be the best episode of the Season is also the one that introduces a few of the problems that later episodes would have, just nowhere near as problematic. I used to think the occasional hatred I've seen for her was a tad unfounded, but looking back on it, it's more like a case of Never Live It Down. Then again, that creepy moment where Clementine got her to zip it in Episode 1 was cathartic enough for me, plus it takes a lot of character to own up to your mistakes/misdeeds and I respect that. For the rest of the episode, Rebecca seeks encouragement from Clementine concerning her stress over her family, before determinately losing Alvin due to a pissin' match between Carver and Kenny.
One of the many things that made Episode 3 feel so bare was the fact that it didn't explain her relationship with Carver so that we would have a better idea of what her dilemma was. As someone who tries to be patient and forgiving of those I think have some good on them, this was an omission that I think hurt her arc quite a bit since it fails to retroactively justify her initial hostility towards Clementine, who she opposed on the grounds that she could be working for Carver. I'd even argue she was less justified than Brie, since her respective villain was several feet above her group and actively out to purge them, while Rebecca is the main reason that Carver both comes after the group and hauls them all back to camp when he catches most of them. With that critique out of the way, she actually gets a fair amount of limelight as a soon-to-be/recently widowed woman who goes through some serious separation anxiety concerning the absence of Alvin, forms something resembling a friendship with Kenny and Sarita, and helps formulate an escape plan at super time using her previous position as a secretary making announcements through the PA system. She eventually gets her payback in the form of a front row seat to Carver's karmic death, where we get this quiet moment where Rebecca walks over to his corpse, slowly kneels down to pick up his pistol, and glances down at him with the same cold expression still on her face. It might just be me, but I think this is another big example as to how her relationship with Carver affects the strength of the story: while this was meant to be something of an empowering moment for Rebecca due to the destroyer of her family being brutally executed, I feel like it wasn't as powerful as it should've been because it wasn't earned as much as it should've been.
In episode 4, she finds Clementine and Jane after they get separated from the rest of her group and has her previous insecurities dug up due to losing her nerve while trying to sneak through the herd and Jane's insensitive comments about the upcoming arrival her baby. After this, she spends the majority of the episode hanging around the Parker's Run statue as everyone else (besides Kenny and Sarah) goes off to prepare for the delivery process. Maybe Clementine could've recalled Christa's own baby during the period where Rebecca was going through labor and have helped with the knowledge she gained from that experience, but this isn't what happens. While I don't think we needed a birthing minigame, Rebecca joined in on what was definitely a serious overarching problem with Season 2: Clementine herself doesn't really matter much to a certain degree, to the point that pretty much everything she should have a personal investment in feels like it was either downplayed, cut short, or simply moved in favor of the likes of Kenny and, to a slightly lesser extent, Jane. While I do like the few conversations they have together because it really serves to show how humble Rebecca has become sense Clementine was first brought to the Cabin, she spends the rest of the episode in the company of Kenny, who is recruited on Bonnie's behalf to help guide Rebecca through her pregnancy using what knowledge he has from when Duck was being born. After a close call, a few funny lines, and a stressful birth period, Rebecca gets a few hours to spend clinging to her baby as her health declines due to complications involving the birthing process and the oncoming cold weather. She ultimately serves as the fuse that sparks the blastout with the Russian Group as she passes away sitting on a tire desperately holding onto her baby as the group talks and later argues with the returning Arvo, as her walker ends up being headshot by Clementine/Kenny in order to protect the baby.
And in episode 5, the group all gather around her deader body and mourn her loss after the firefight with the Russian Group ends, which also ends this sequence when Kenny attacks Arvo due to being angry about Rebecca's death. Not to mention that out of all the Cabin Group members who had died, only Rebecca and Alvin are portrayed in a positive light at this point due to putting her trust in him and being the parents of the baby who would motivate Kenny to behave much more actively aggressive towards friend and foe alike. While Kenny and/or Jane's fate end up being sealed with his well-being acting as a tipping point, AJ goes on alongside Clementine to survive the Season and is expected to be a recurring element in Season 3.
The fact of the matter is that some players never forgave due to her 180 from her bitchy attitude. At least she, Nick, and Sarah were definitely established with the intention to develop their storylines in mind, but the way they ended up being executed was mixed. I have yet to see anymore than one person(zombiebonnie) say they legitimately liked her and she had the most complete(if a bit by the numbers) storyline of the three. And even then, "Who's yo Baby-Daddy" isn't exactly the most attractive or politically correct basis for a character. Maybe it's a sign that I should just go back and examine her character more thoroughly, but the only keywords I associate with her at the moment are Pregnancy, Family, and Vulnerability.
You bring up some interesting points about Rebecca's character, especially with how the sudden transition from advocating a wounded little girl's death over a suspected walker bite, to suddenly developing into a motherly figure who awkwardly brushes off the behavior she has exhibited last night.
I personally think that her sudden shift in behavior was due to how the writers from Episode 2 and onward had realized that they have made Rebecca far too unlikable for players to want to know why she acted the way she did, so they basically did a 180 on her personality overnight and hoped for the best, as many newcomers were advocating for her death in the first meeting.
Problem is there's no clear resolution on how harshly Rebecca treat Clementine on their first meeting, beyond blackmailing her, because come the next episode we're suddenly friends now and everything is all forgiven and forgotten. It would have been much better had Rebecca's animosity with Clementine continued the next day, and we were given the chance to call her out on her horrid attitude in front of everyone in the group. Afterwards, Rebecca can then apologies for her behavior and promises to treat Clementine like a person.
But instead, we have a rather forced and clumsy relationship with Rebecca where we're meant to ignore the worst first impressions made in the story and bond with her and the unborn child due to the subplot of Clementine's relationship with the missing Christa and the presumably deceased unborn child, whereas even that had little to no payoff in the end either.
I think the writing from Episode 1-3 was great however, in episode 4 it seemed like they wanted players to choose Kenny, Jane or trusting no one. Also forcing us to try and bond with Jane even though she was never appealing to me was kind of a ok idea. Her trying to teach Clem to fight off walkers is a good idea but you think Molly or Lee would've shown her since I feel they are better fighters than Jane. Episode 5's writing for the ending was great in the Kenny and Alone endings. I just don't like Jane at all she doesn't seem dependable or trustworthy since she seems to take off when something goes wrong.
S2...I do love it, but man does it have issues....
Episode 1...Omid is killed...Christa looses baby...Clementine and Christa are separated emotionally and physically....Clementine is chased by a guy who has questionable motives...Clementine leads him to his death...almost drowns...befriends a dog..finds beans in a trash bin...gets attacked by the dog...gets dog impaled....almost eaten...saved....dropped and accused of being bitten by a walker....shot at...a nasty woman advocates getting rid of her...placed in a cold ass shack...forced to do own surgery...has to fight off walker...gets some food..told she can stay..bitchy pregnant woman tells her she should go...
I mean holy shit...amazing the writers did not have her loose her hat...you know...just to drive home the fact that Clementine is in deep shit.
Episode 2 Pete gets killed...either you are with him...just to remind you that getting bit sucks...or you are with Nick who gets drunk..either way Clementine gets back in time for the big bad Carver to appear...amazingly he leaves and was alone to begin with....group flees to the mountains...honest and compassionate guy on bridge...too gentle for this world is killed...Kenny got lucky..real lucky...but we are never going to tell you how neener neener...find out kindly older gay man's partner was the one on the bridge luls...strange woman..peeking around...let her go...walkers...Carver and pals show up with that women...idiot Kenny gets Walter killed...just to let you know that kind people need to die to drive plot.
Episode 3. Stalag 13....Carver is so unbelievable as a villain that the series is really hurt...honestly...who would follow this guy...Reggie thrown off roof....no grumbling...prisoner abuse and forced labor camps...isn't our new society grand? Do not worry about cabin group...no more character development for them...Kenny is back. Mike...never learn anything about him...this bad guy is taken care of by the end of the episode...leaving 2 episodes as aftermath plots. Bye Carlos and Sarita and ultimately Nick.
Episode 4 birth...and death...leave Sarah...or save Sarah...so she can be crushed by a falling deck...just to prove you cannot save everyone. Rob or don't rob...Arvo is a dick...shootout.
Episode 5. Kenny needs slapped around...abuse of prisoners is ok...because it is Kenny....camp fire scene, season 2 suddenly remembers that it is these human moments that make TWD so special. Luke, Clementine and Bonnie go swimming....Luke drowns....more prisoner abuse ...Jane may be nuts too. Mike and Bonnie...you fucker....our daughter is shot...Kenny and Jane suddenly are argumentative. Ok...no one knows were Wellington is...lol it is in Ohio...not close and hopefully the bridges are still up...showdown...worst plan ever is a skillfully elegant way of causing a final fight that has been brewing since 2 scenes earlier...
There is so much wrong in season two that it blunts the things that are good.
Story pacing is essential...if you throw so much at the player...it begins to lessen the impacts. You need to create a cadre of likable and sympathetic characters to care about. In season one you had Clementine and Lee...Kenny and his family...even detrimental characters like Carley and Lilly had characters that seemed genuine....it is supposed to sorta suck when we loose a fellow survivor. ..Carlos...not going to miss him...Sarita...other than being someone important to Kenny...we know nothing about her...if the writers do not create compelling characteristics...then how is a player to bond and be sad when they are lost?
This is like they took a first draft of a story and never bothered to fix anything about it...and in fact decided it was ok to drop plot threads just because.
The season suffers not because it is weaker than s1...there are good ideas in s2..but they forget all the things that made season one great....it is it's humanity and the character moments that gives the player a reason to truly care.
Ok I agree with you about numerous points such as Sarah, and the Arvo situation. I mean this season felt like the show where they force characters who are minor to feel like they have major role such as Arvo, Sarah, Mike, Jane, and many more. I do however feel like because they were writing a story around a kid character it was tougher to come up with truly impactful desicions. Although Clem is a Teen now and I feel like she can do so much more to defend herself and her friends! Let's go Season 3 lol
to excited lol
The funny thing about this writeup is that it came from a different reply meant for one of the mods saying she was one of their least favorite characters. Halfway through, I realized how long it was getting and decided to continue with the purpose of posting it here.
Yeah and unfortunately, they did it too fast to appease the fanbase rather than using it as a gradual development. This would also become a major problem I had with Jane going into No Going Back, but I think I've already talked about that.
Yeah, you can thank either @LoseMyHome or @BadassMichonne for the Christa connection.
Yeah, while Amid the Ruins was actually a really good episode for the most part, the things it did wrong were serious signs that they just gave up on telling a cohesive story and made a mad dash for the finale to have a WWE Championship Match and the episode/Season suffered for it.
One testament to that polarization is the fact that Jane is a complex, morally thought provoking character but she had too many black marks on her by the end of it due to her unlikable traits outnumbering the redeeming ones.
To be fair, Molly was a one-shot who barely interacted with Clementine before leaving for another adventure from what I remember. Also, I can't really imagine Lee giving Clementine fighting lessons paying off that well given the inherent differences between the two.
Yeah, Jane is someone I hate on a personal level for those same basic reasons and then some.
This. All of this.
Also, I love how you talked about the Season as a whole in the space I talk about a single topic.
I mean, I don't think anyone is responsible for the Christa connection, it's a pretty intuitive connection to make as they are two adult black women with conflicting feelings towards Clementine and are/were pregnant, and I think people would have just rather had Christa than Rebecca because we already have a connection with Christa and her conflicted feelings make more sense with Omid's death as context, not so for Rebecca.
Oh, look at Ms./Mr. Humble here!
I was just giving credit for an exact idea I didn't have. And it was brilliant!
Posted this in another thread...but it is a way to fix the end of the game.
Not feeling the best...had a hell of an evening...but here goes.
Before the apocalypse, Jane like a lot of us...takes things for granted...including family. The apocalypse has a way of changing people. She suddenly became horrifyingly aware that you can not take loved ones for granted. The loss of parents and friends, left her Jaime. Her younger sister.
Jane took it upon herself to step up and keep her sister alive, it is possible that she felt guilt over how she treated family that Jaime became her way of atonement for her past.
Jane through her new found sense of purpose she drags her sister through several states. Each and every day she kept her sister alive physically...but every day, she sees a part of her sister die inside. Jaime perhaps had witnessed their parent's deaths and with the death of most of the family and all she ever knew...Jaime made the decision that she wanted to die.
Finally it came to a point where Jaime was done running and no matter what Jane said or begged, she was not going to jump to safety. She made Jane have to decide whether to leave her or die with her.
Jane left her, this act broke Jane. Now her outlook became...go it alone, if you let people join or join a group...you are just going to get your heart broken.
Jane became a great survivalist, but over time loneliness becomes it's own death. This is probably part of the reason Jane was checking out Carver's camp.
It was Clementine that made Jane help the group. Clementine reminded her of a younger Jaime, except that she had a vibrant will to survive like Jane.
To Jane, anything that endangers the group is suspect and is better left behind. A lot of Jane's issue with Sarah was that she had seen the same weaknesses in her own sister. Fearing the inevitable pain of loss, she tries to get Clementine to leave her.
Now this is the part where I point out the missed opportunities the writers missed. Ok Sarah's death at the deck. If she could have been saved by Jane, how would that have changed things. Would Jane have learned that helping Sarah was not only her job, but everyone else's...and if they had started to see change in Sarah...a bonding process between Jane the seemingly cold hearted loner...and a late blooming Sarah would have been a triumph of humanity in a dark apocalypse.
Jane and Kenny...mostly throughout the last two episodes, Jane is sympathetic to Kenny...encouraging Clementine to try and bring him back, she even helped smooth over a disagreement between Kenny and Mike. But then the writers give up and decide that there needs to be a fight for Clementine's heart. Ok that is a valid idea...but the way the writers decide to do it is pure bullshit.
Making Clementine and Kenny think that the baby was grabbed by walkers and pushing Kenny over the edge....
Wow...so if you kill Kenny because you know Jane would never knowingly let AJ die..you are then betrayed big time when you find out that she had put him in a car for safe keeping to make you side with her.....wait what? It made no fucking sense.
Before that scene Jane was depicted as level headed if a bit aloof, but not a maniac. That was Kenny.
So ok you say...the writer took a misstep and fumbled the ending...how would you have fixed it to redeem Jane in the eyes of the players.
The ending would have been at the construction site.
Mike,Bonnie and Arvo try to steal the truck...Clementine is shot. When she comes to..Mike and Bonnie are tied up...Jane is cleaning your wound. You find out Kenny killed Arvo...understandable considering he shot Clementine.
Now he wants to execute Mike and Bonnie. Now you remember how Jane has told you that you needed to help Kenny....based on things you have said and done in the previous episodes...one of several things happens.
worst case...Kenny angrily shoots Bonnie and starts to aim for Mike when Jane shoots him. You then have to decide if you forgive Jane or go your own way.
middle case Kenny starts to beat a tied up Mike, Jane tries to stop him...Kenny and Jane fight...you decide what happens next. If you let him kill her, you can try to talk him down from killing Mike and Bonnie and he leaves, filled with shame for what he has become.....or you kill him and Jane survives and your choice is what to do with Mike and Bonnie
best...your words and actions have helped...he starts to beat on Mike and Jane...you are able to talk him down...depending on how persuasive you were throughout...he either leaves or he stays with you and Jane...you can even let Mike and Bonnie stay...Mike leaves because of Arvo...but Bonnie stays ...and helps Kenny.
But that's just me.
Ms. Humble, thanks!
No extensive critique this time, though I have at least two planned. Just wanted to say this:
Season 2 drawing material from Season 1 was a decision that hurt it more than helped and it opened it up to a lot of negativity as a result.
Agreed.
Well said! I'm just glad that I got to kill Kenny once and for all. Bringing back Kenny was the most stupid move in the whole series. Lilly might not have been liked as much but her return made far more sense since in one playthrough she drives off with the Rv and in the other she is left on the road side as opposed to Kenny's scenarios where he had no real way of escape.
Agreed.
Because I'm having trouble actually getting my next two critiques done, I thought I'd test the waters by posing a query related to one of them: Who is the worst spotlight hog-- Kenny or Jane? Or perhaps a third one that's not as noticeable.
In season 3, I will pretend Clem is 18. I was so upset when I saw she was 14. I think that the season 3 will be much better than 2. S2 was a polarizing season compared to the first. We need more epic Lee type moments.
The strongest was the first one. Still not bitten !
The worst was probably three or four.
Any particular reason you ranked one above two? (ignoring the obvious quote because why not)
Did you know there was a topic where you could rank all of the episodes?
Kenny of course was the worst spotlight hog....
I disagree and your username is pure bias lol.
Well besides the fumble with Omid and Christa, I liked the tone and setting of episode 1. Clem talking about Lee and Omid and trying to survive without Lee.
Episode 4 or 5 was just bad. The whole Jane bonding theme, the illusion of choice with Sarita, Mike shining, then turning into a baby. The Jane /Kenny fight.
True.
I thought you said 3 or 4, not 4 or 5?
Well three was bad also. The Carver storyline and enslavement all felt forced.