After playing episode 3 I suddenly see the effect of the choice of saving Harvey, and its Montoya. I have a feeling that by redeeming Harvey… more from becoming Two-Face we also have doomed Montoya into her path to villainy. I mentioned here that by redeeming a villain someone Bruce knows would become a villain, and with Harvey its Montoya
Will Montoya become the villain at the end of this series if we continue to redeem Harvey?
I've said this elsewhere, but I wonder if the serum will have negative, lasting effects on Montoya too. Since it was said to have had side effects on Harvey.
I think that person is going off of the fact that Montoya starts going rogue if you support Harvey instead. It doesn't sound like she's getting herself into anything good after she turns in her badge. I don't know about her being a villain, but I wouldn't be surprised if she gets majorly in your way at some point if you made certain choices.
In addition to just liking Harvey better (he's had way more screentime!) and him being a civilian against Montoya the cop, to me it feels that she was unfairly targeted once when she killed Falcone and the rest of her problems are her making bad choices and choosing to go rogue while with the Children of Arkham out there Harvey has been targeted twice (sure he didn't have to take off by himself from the hospital but they'd have gotten to him either way) and I can't see them stopping going after him unless they somehow strike up a deal (unlikely unless the psychosis really ramps up) or find a way to manipulate him (seems much more likely, he is not all there right now).
I could deal with Montoya being a villain if I had to. Although it would be a shame since she's like one of three people in the city who don't hate Bruce.
I've said this elsewhere, but I wonder if the serum will have negative, lasting effects on Montoya too. Since it was said to have had side e… moreffects on Harvey.
I think that person is going off of the fact that Montoya starts going rogue if you support Harvey instead. It doesn't sound like she's getting herself into anything good after she turns in her badge. I don't know about her being a villain, but I wouldn't be surprised if she gets majorly in your way at some point if you made certain choices.
Another matter I need to bring up. Should Oswald really be redeemed? No matter how much I tried he really is dissing me much. There will be a choice in the future were you might or might not
I don't think we can redeem him, he's gone too far. We could prevent Harvey from becoming Two-Face, but in the event that we fail how does that work for Gotham at large ?
Another matter I need to bring up. Should Oswald really be redeemed? No matter how much I tried he really is dissing me much. There will be a choice in the future were you might or might not
He crossed a line at the debate. I might be able to forgive massacring the tower since they were probably criminals and we didn't really see that. But the debate. He killed that moderator. Hill might have been forgivable but Harvey? And he might have killed all the other witnesses if he hadn't been stopped. He had those cops killed...The Penguin has a lot to answer for and redemption, if it comes, can't be as easy as persuading him that the Children of Arkham are going too far and that he should stop hating Bruce.
I don't think we can redeem him, he's gone too far. We could prevent Harvey from becoming Two-Face, but in the event that we fail how does that work for Gotham at large ?
Many questions that Ep4 & 5 will have to answer.
Another matter I need to bring up. Should Oswald really be redeemed? No matter how much I tried he really is dissing me much. There will be a choice in the future were you might or might not
I don't think that Harvey can be stopped from becoming Two Face. In episode 3, we see Harvey develop Two Face tendencies early on when he says that Batman should be above the law and that he would make it so. When Bruce is hesitant about that, Harvey loses his temper. When Harvey sees Bruce at Selina's apartment he loses it and starts flipping a coin to decide who should be punished first, when he says Selina, I intervened before he could hurt her and I beat him up after he pulled out a knife. True that I saved Harvey from getting his face damaged from Oswald, yet in cartoons, movies, and comics, Two Face usually got his face burnt from an explosive, battery acid, or a chemical explosion. Two Face would then hate Batman for failing to save him in time. So yes I think that he will have his face changed in a different way.
He doesn't even have to hate Batman to still need to be stopped or maybe he can just hate Batman without getting his face messed up because Batman stops his efforts to make a police state.
And it's a little rich for Bruce to disagree about Batman being above the law. Batman is a vigilante. He commits assault and breaking and entering all the damn time. The cops barely tolerate his existence and everything he does pretty much is a crime. It's true there's a big difference between at least trying to do the right thing and not go too far and Harvey's words about taking the leash off and letting Batman do more (like Batman already doesn't do whatever he wants and thinks is right) but Bruce can't really disagree about Batman being above the law without being a huge hypocrite because what is the law ever going to do to Batman no matter what he does? Until they figure out who he really is, he's untouchable. He couldn't be more above the law.
I don't think that Harvey can be stopped from becoming Two Face. In episode 3, we see Harvey develop Two Face tendencies early on when he sa… moreys that Batman should be above the law and that he would make it so. When Bruce is hesitant about that, Harvey loses his temper. When Harvey sees Bruce at Selina's apartment he loses it and starts flipping a coin to decide who should be punished first, when he says Selina, I intervened before he could hurt her and I beat him up after he pulled out a knife. True that I saved Harvey from getting his face damaged from Oswald, yet in cartoons, movies, and comics, Two Face usually got his face burnt from an explosive, battery acid, or a chemical explosion. Two Face would then hate Batman for failing to save him in time. So yes I think that he will have his face changed in a different way.
That's why it's important to limit yourself. Even if you're above the law you need to limit yourself on how far you go and learn from it. That's why they have codes they need to strict themselves. Even killing needs some consideration. Hell, in my walkthrough on the first episode of the game I chose not to break the shooter's arm, but more then half of the majority chose to break the shooter's arm, which I was quite surprised by it. Then I brutalize Falcone, which I have no regrets because he deserved it, but a large majority chose to arrest him. I'm wondering about that since more then half chose to break the shooter's arm instead of sparing him, but chose to arrest Falcone and not brutalize him?
Anyway, in episode 3 there was an option that if you save Harvey you could hurt or threaten one of the Arkham member. I chose to threaten him since I want to think in his point of view on why he would join. Even the meeting with Harvey I had my Bruce told him that even if Batman is above the law he needs to respect the aspect of it. Which would bring up Batman limiting himself
It's important to see both sides of the argument, but also understand the logic of it and think of the right decision. Even if people will hate you for it, the results are what matters in the long-term
Either you die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain
He doesn't even have to hate Batman to still need to be stopped or maybe he can just hate Batman without getting his face messed up because … moreBatman stops his efforts to make a police state.
And it's a little rich for Bruce to disagree about Batman being above the law. Batman is a vigilante. He commits assault and breaking and entering all the damn time. The cops barely tolerate his existence and everything he does pretty much is a crime. It's true there's a big difference between at least trying to do the right thing and not go too far and Harvey's words about taking the leash off and letting Batman do more (like Batman already doesn't do whatever he wants and thinks is right) but Bruce can't really disagree about Batman being above the law without being a huge hypocrite because what is the law ever going to do to Batman no matter what he does? Until they figure out who he really is, he's untouchable. He couldn't be more above the law.
With episode 4 in mind... Is he too far gone?
Can we still save him?
Every single Harvey scene... I can still see a bit of hope... A chance.
He's not always Two-Face. Harvey still exists.
But at this point he's the second coming of Hitler.
Fuck.
I was thinking the same thing. There is a bit of Harvey in there when I came in as Batman, but the Two-Face persona just keeps butting in. The biggest problem however is did we make the right choice? Many send Harvey to Blackgate because he has absolutely no hope if he was send to Arkham. We know what happens in Arkham and we know Joker is there. So its not worth it to send Harvey to Arkham
Only chance, and I pray hopefully, will be in Episode 5. Can Harvey still be redeemed in that Episode? I'm hoping for a face reveal were Bruce reveals himself to Harvey as Batman. The very man that saved him in episode 2. How would Harvey feel about that? But also the chance for Harvey to finally take control over the Two-Face persona
Telltale better not take that possibility away from us
With episode 4 in mind... Is he too far gone?
Can we still save him?
Every single Harvey scene... I can still see a bit of hope... A chance.
He's not always Two-Face. Harvey still exists.
But at this point he's the second coming of Hitler.
Fuck.
While it's impossible to know for sure just yet, I feel like sending Harvey to Blackgate for his recovery was probably the wrong decision. I mean, we all saw how backwards Arkham was and the Joker is there and we know Bruce and Harvey were trying to replace Arkham with a better facility.
But.
Gordon frames the decision as "Should he be punished for his crimes or actually receive help for his mental issues and maybe try to recover" and when Batman answers he says "he is the worst and needs to be punished" or "he's really dangerous but he needs help."
I really don't think the game is going for a possibility he'll be mentally better off if you send him to prison and they don't even try just because the Joker isn't there. It's pretty much just hoping it goes away on its own and we saw how well that worked before his arrest.
I was thinking the same thing. There is a bit of Harvey in there when I came in as Batman, but the Two-Face persona just keeps butting in. T… morehe biggest problem however is did we make the right choice? Many send Harvey to Blackgate because he has absolutely no hope if he was send to Arkham. We know what happens in Arkham and we know Joker is there. So its not worth it to send Harvey to Arkham
Only chance, and I pray hopefully, will be in Episode 5. Can Harvey still be redeemed in that Episode? I'm hoping for a face reveal were Bruce reveals himself to Harvey as Batman. The very man that saved him in episode 2. How would Harvey feel about that? But also the chance for Harvey to finally take control over the Two-Face persona
Telltale better not take that possibility away from us
And that leaves Episode 5 if we have faced Penguin instead of Harvey. That episode will force us into a conflict with him. My only question however is will his fate be determined. That is what's going to worry me if many of us did fail to redeem Harvey
While it's impossible to know for sure just yet, I feel like sending Harvey to Blackgate for his recovery was probably the wrong decision. I… more mean, we all saw how backwards Arkham was and the Joker is there and we know Bruce and Harvey were trying to replace Arkham with a better facility.
But.
Gordon frames the decision as "Should he be punished for his crimes or actually receive help for his mental issues and maybe try to recover" and when Batman answers he says "he is the worst and needs to be punished" or "he's really dangerous but he needs help."
I really don't think the game is going for a possibility he'll be mentally better off if you send him to prison and they don't even try just because the Joker isn't there. It's pretty much just hoping it goes away on its own and we saw how well that worked before his arrest.
Sarah, I disagree though with that. My Batman reasons that he is equal to the law, yet he is in his own crime division. I let justice decide what to do with Falcone and in a way it did. I threatened the thug, instead of breaking his arm. That's not to say that my Batman is perfect. When Hill said that he ordered the hit, I was thinking on what to do, then Oswald killed him. If I was Batman, would I kill him or let him be arrested ? That was a decision that I was contemplating. I broke Oswald's legs for nearly killing a kid earlier that day. As an alter ego, my Batman is the necessity of Bruce. He punishes crime reasonably, not the Punisher way of torture and death. Batman never goes around outright killing the bad guys, he normally ties them up and leaves them for the police. That is no different than how Spiderman fights crime. I wouldn't say that either is above the law just because they fight crime.
And that leaves Episode 5 if we have faced Penguin instead of Harvey. That episode will force us into a conflict with him. My only question … morehowever is will his fate be determined. That is what's going to worry me if many of us did fail to redeem Harvey
The reason I say that they are is that they are not, in fact, part of the law. Vigilantism is illegal even in-universe. Batman is breaking the law (and so is Spiderman) which is the reason Batman has had to flee from the police multiple times and they keep shooting at him. Trying to stick to the law as much as possible just makes Batman more responsible and after justice rather than vengeance. But what if Batman had decided to go around doing all the more violent choices and in fact was killing people? What could they do? Probably no more than they're already doing. It might change in that Gordon stops working with him and lets his people try to shoot at Batman but other than that Batman can't face repercussions. If the DA wants to charge him for something then he can't. Basically unless people find out who Batman is then he is above the law because he is unaccountable to anyone but himself. That doesn't mean Batman is running around with no internal morality or not listening to other people but that it is his choice.
Sarah, I disagree though with that. My Batman reasons that he is equal to the law, yet he is in his own crime division. I let justice decide… more what to do with Falcone and in a way it did. I threatened the thug, instead of breaking his arm. That's not to say that my Batman is perfect. When Hill said that he ordered the hit, I was thinking on what to do, then Oswald killed him. If I was Batman, would I kill him or let him be arrested ? That was a decision that I was contemplating. I broke Oswald's legs for nearly killing a kid earlier that day. As an alter ego, my Batman is the necessity of Bruce. He punishes crime reasonably, not the Punisher way of torture and death. Batman never goes around outright killing the bad guys, he normally ties them up and leaves them for the police. That is no different than how Spiderman fights crime. I wouldn't say that either is above the law just because they fight crime.
We know that Arkham is pretty shitty, but the way the choice was posed to us Arkham is the better option. If he were sent to Blackgate he would either be in solitary with no counseling/treatment or he'd be fending for his life constantly in gen. population (he is the D.A. of Gotham, criminals will want to hurt him).
I was thinking the same thing. There is a bit of Harvey in there when I came in as Batman, but the Two-Face persona just keeps butting in. T… morehe biggest problem however is did we make the right choice? Many send Harvey to Blackgate because he has absolutely no hope if he was send to Arkham. We know what happens in Arkham and we know Joker is there. So its not worth it to send Harvey to Arkham
Only chance, and I pray hopefully, will be in Episode 5. Can Harvey still be redeemed in that Episode? I'm hoping for a face reveal were Bruce reveals himself to Harvey as Batman. The very man that saved him in episode 2. How would Harvey feel about that? But also the chance for Harvey to finally take control over the Two-Face persona
Telltale better not take that possibility away from us
This is just my opinion but when the Penguin was really annoying of whole Batman doesn't kill thing, there should have been a third option to kill him. It would be plausible "enough" moment of Bruce Wayne. Only like three people genuinely appreciate his efforts while others shit over him. Now if they're not allowed to kill certain characters, especially due potential sequels then they could have allowed to brutalize him.
It's Alfred who keeps him sane and probably only thing stopping him from going too far.
Batman is still a new hero, so that's why cops have been shooting at him. We will have to agree to disagree. Batman isn't above the law. If he killed, then it would be a major crime. He beats up bad guys, then ties them up so that they can be arrested. If a robbery was going on and you tied up the gunman, then that wouldn't be illegal. Batman keeps his identity hidden so that bad guys don't target Bruce and Alfred 24/7. Batman taking on mobsters is a risky move and they would love to find out who is behind that mask.
The reason I say that they are is that they are not, in fact, part of the law. Vigilantism is illegal even in-universe. Batman is breaking t… morehe law (and so is Spiderman) which is the reason Batman has had to flee from the police multiple times and they keep shooting at him. Trying to stick to the law as much as possible just makes Batman more responsible and after justice rather than vengeance. But what if Batman had decided to go around doing all the more violent choices and in fact was killing people? What could they do? Probably no more than they're already doing. It might change in that Gordon stops working with him and lets his people try to shoot at Batman but other than that Batman can't face repercussions. If the DA wants to charge him for something then he can't. Basically unless people find out who Batman is then he is above the law because he is unaccountable to anyone but himself. That doesn't mean Batman is running around with no internal morality or not listening to other people but that it is his choice.
It's not anything about Batman personally or his actions, just that no one can hold him accountable unless he chooses. How can you he more above the law than that? Batman kills someone and it's a major crime but unless he turns himself in or they catch him the law simply does not apply. Superheroes are simply above the law.
Batman is still a new hero, so that's why cops have been shooting at him. We will have to agree to disagree. Batman isn't above the law. If … morehe killed, then it would be a major crime. He beats up bad guys, then ties them up so that they can be arrested. If a robbery was going on and you tied up the gunman, then that wouldn't be illegal. Batman keeps his identity hidden so that bad guys don't target Bruce and Alfred 24/7. Batman taking on mobsters is a risky move and they would love to find out who is behind that mask.
Would you like if during fight scenes you have options to execute hencheman and a sort of meter showing public opinion of you in gotham? Think Fable where if you do bad things you are considered evil and get a reputation as such. If do good, peoples see you as good and their behavior/interaction towards you also changes.
This is just my opinion but when the Penguin was really annoying of whole Batman doesn't kill thing, there should have been a third option … moreto kill him. It would be plausible "enough" moment of Bruce Wayne. Only like three people genuinely appreciate his efforts while others shit over him. Now if they're not allowed to kill certain characters, especially due potential sequels then they could have allowed to brutalize him.
It's Alfred who keeps him sane and probably only thing stopping him from going too far.
Agreed. The scene was so fantastic it made Harvey a character worth trying to redeem. The interaction with Bruce and Harvey was so good. And what's even better is that Bruce Wayne is the one that saved Harvey and not Batman. That's something that has never happen because in every version it was Batman that tries to do good with the villains and not Bruce Wayne. This game marks the first time Bruce Wayne has actually done some real good to a villain. Instead of landing a blow with his fists and beating a villain Bruce lands a blow on Harvey with only his words and action, and it was such a great scene. This is a man reaching out to save his best friend from himself with only his words alone, and Bruce's last act to save his friend is putting away the coin. In a way, the coin represents Harvey's cage for Two-face to imprison, and for Bruce putting it away symbolizes him breaking his friend out. Forcing Harvey to make his own decision instead of relying on the coin as he breaks down in tears. It was such a fantastic scene to witness and a moment of triumph for us as the player whose goal was to redeem Harvey
8:56 - 15:49 - Bruce and Harvey scene
Oswald however is not so much. In fact it was quite bad that I stopped giving a damn about him. At this point it was obvious that Penguin is destined to be an enemy to both Bruce Wayne and Batman
Overall, a redeemed Harvey Dent, a villainous Penguin, and a dead Lady Arkham. Wonder how season 2 would pull it off
That is a really good interpretation and one I hadn't considered. Pocketing the coin represents helping Harvey and forcing him to choose. Even not being able to choose and shoot is a choice. In a pocketing but two-face playthrough trying to attack Bruce to get it back is a choice.
What does throwing the coin represent? Harvey blindly chases after it and falls off a balcony and could have been hurt far worse. In pursuit of the outcome dictated by the coin Harvey will blindly act in self-destructive and stupid ways because he's so fixated on his coin and refusing to choose beyond that.
Agreed. The scene was so fantastic it made Harvey a character worth trying to redeem. The interaction with Bruce and Harvey was so good. And… more what's even better is that Bruce Wayne is the one that saved Harvey and not Batman. That's something that has never happen because in every version it was Batman that tries to do good with the villains and not Bruce Wayne. This game marks the first time Bruce Wayne has actually done some real good to a villain. Instead of landing a blow with his fists and beating a villain Bruce lands a blow on Harvey with only his words and action, and it was such a great scene. This is a man reaching out to save his best friend from himself with only his words alone, and Bruce's last act to save his friend is putting away the coin. In a way, the coin represents Harvey's cage for Two-face to imprison, and for Bruce putting it away symbolizes him breaking his friend out. Forcing Harvey to make his own decision instead of… [view original content]
I enjoyed how all of the characters played out in this series. I don't think that the characters were ever meant to be saved. We try to save them as Bruce because we know them personally and care about them. It's almost like if a former good friend that you had becomes a drug addict, you try to save them as you know the person that they used to be.
That is a really good interpretation and one I hadn't considered. Pocketing the coin represents helping Harvey and forcing him to choose. Ev… moreen not being able to choose and shoot is a choice. In a pocketing but two-face playthrough trying to attack Bruce to get it back is a choice.
What does throwing the coin represent? Harvey blindly chases after it and falls off a balcony and could have been hurt far worse. In pursuit of the outcome dictated by the coin Harvey will blindly act in self-destructive and stupid ways because he's so fixated on his coin and refusing to choose beyond that.
This is something I've been thinking for a while, and with a possible Season 2 I have one character that should make an appearance now that there's a possibility of the Joker being a villain. Harleen Quinzel. If anybody remembers Episode 3, Harvey mentions having a therapist and it's a female. What if that person is Harleen Quinzel? I think she could be another redeemable villain if Telltales play their cards right, and with a redeemed Harvey then there's a possibility of him playing a role as an ally for Batman
Reason is I had this idea of a romance story with Harvey and Harleen. Parts of the idea actually came from "Tales from the Borderlands" were you have the option to ship Rhys with either Fiona or Sasha. What if that same concept can be applied to here? But have it three ways (or two). Bruce, Harvey, or Joker. For me I think it should be Harvey, because the man needs love. That would also play as a determined choice weather or not you would ship Harvey with Harleen. Harvey is still her patients as he reached out and opened up to her all the things he's done and regrets but wants to feel hopeful about the future, which led to Harleen slowly starts to fall for him. Again, that would also be determined for your action if you're willing to go for that route. The possibility of shipping two people you never thought would happen, but they get together
This season showed the possibility of redeeming a villain like Harvey. That should continue in season 2 as well with Harleen Quinzel as a possible redeemed villain
Hell, I found this strip by nebezial and I think Telltale should use it as a material for Harleen's story arc:
Take this concept and replace Poison Ivy with either Bruce/Batman or Harvey. Everything you do and the choices you made in the game would determined if Harleen Quinzel can be redeemed, or she will forever fall and become Harley Quinn. This would also determine Harvey's fate aswell. Succeed and the Two-Face persona will forever disappear, but fail and Two-Face reemerge and takes control once more. Two fractured people taking comfort into each other's arms
Who here would consider a redeemed Harleen Quinzel, and maybe ship her with Harvey Dent? That would also have Harvey as an ally to both Bruce and Batman. Maybe Telltale would create an original character for Harvey
Well I tried doing this for the game. I picked choices for Harvey (save him and not sleep with Selina) and it still ended with the same result. You do have some consequences, but I've noticed that Telltale doesn't give you that much control.
I think it would be really cool if they could do that, but they have to keep true to the character in some way. I don't think it would be viable if they made some of the iconic antagonists of the game buddy-buddy with Bruce. However, if they had a similar dynamic like Batman and Catwoman, I may be able to see that happening.
This is something I've been thinking for a while, and with a possible Season 2 I have one character that should make an appearance now that … morethere's a possibility of the Joker being a villain. Harleen Quinzel. If anybody remembers Episode 3, Harvey mentions having a therapist and it's a female. What if that person is Harleen Quinzel? I think she could be another redeemable villain if Telltales play their cards right, and with a redeemed Harvey then there's a possibility of him playing a role as an ally for Batman
Reason is I had this idea of a romance story with Harvey and Harleen. Parts of the idea actually came from "Tales from the Borderlands" were you have the option to ship Rhys with either Fiona or Sasha. What if that same concept can be applied to here? But have it three ways (or two). Bruce, Harvey, or Joker. For me I think it should be Harvey, because the man needs love. That would also play as a determined choice weather or not y… [view original content]
If you're talking about the game, then Bruce did.
When he visits Harvey in the Mayor's office you can pick the option about seeing his therapist. Bruce refers to the therapist as a "her"
That is correct. Harvey's therapist is a her and it should be Harleen Quinzel. The idea I thought of would heavily depend on the choices the player made. Especially with the Joker involved. The player has to convince Harleen not to follow him and build the relationship between Harvey and Harleen were they do end up together. Again, that heavily depends on the dialogue because even the wrong dialogue could have negative consequences, and Harleen would become Harley
That also brings back the concept I brought up about another character taking place of the villain. If you did succeed in redeeming Harleen and have her shipped with Harvey then there's one character that could be a good replacement, and it's the most obvious one since episode 4. Dr. Joan Leland. Because she is the one character that got close to Joker, and Joker herself could play it to his advantage. Leland did teach Joker how to play checker and it would make an interesting concept if she unknowingly played a hand in creating the Joker. Giving the character the idea of playing into a person's mind and mold it as a game to him
If you're talking about the game, then Bruce did.
When he visits Harvey in the Mayor's office you can pick the option about seeing his therapist. Bruce refers to the therapist as a "her"
[spoiler]
Well I tried doing this for the game. I picked choices for Harvey (save him and not sleep with Selina) and it still ended with … morethe same result. You do have some consequences, but I've noticed that Telltale doesn't give you that much control.
I think it would be really cool if they could do that, but they have to keep true to the character in some way. I don't think it would be viable if they made some of the iconic antagonists of the game buddy-buddy with Bruce. However, if they had a similar dynamic like Batman and Catwoman, I may be able to see that happening.
I don't think that works. Harvey's pre-Arkham therapist isn't going to be a therapist at Arkham and if she's just an outside therapist where does she meet the Joker? She could be his therapist at Arkham and have run into the Joker there (but not fully converted).
I really hope we wouldn't be asked to ship a therapist and her severely mentally ill patient, especially if doing so was the way to help him recover. So unethical and exploitative and skeevy.
That is correct. Harvey's therapist is a her and it should be Harleen Quinzel. The idea I thought of would heavily depend on the choices the… more player made. Especially with the Joker involved. The player has to convince Harleen not to follow him and build the relationship between Harvey and Harleen were they do end up together. Again, that heavily depends on the dialogue because even the wrong dialogue could have negative consequences, and Harleen would become Harley
That also brings back the concept I brought up about another character taking place of the villain. If you did succeed in redeeming Harleen and have her shipped with Harvey then there's one character that could be a good replacement, and it's the most obvious one since episode 4. Dr. Joan Leland. Because she is the one character that got close to Joker, and Joker herself could play it to his advantage. Leland did teach Joker how to play checker and it would make an interesting co… [view original content]
Comments
What makes you think Montoya is on her path to become a villain ? Has she acted strangely ?
I've said this elsewhere, but I wonder if the serum will have negative, lasting effects on Montoya too. Since it was said to have had side effects on Harvey.
I think that person is going off of the fact that Montoya starts going rogue if you support Harvey instead. It doesn't sound like she's getting herself into anything good after she turns in her badge. I don't know about her being a villain, but I wouldn't be surprised if she gets majorly in your way at some point if you made certain choices.
I mean, if I had to choose...
In addition to just liking Harvey better (he's had way more screentime!) and him being a civilian against Montoya the cop, to me it feels that she was unfairly targeted once when she killed Falcone and the rest of her problems are her making bad choices and choosing to go rogue while with the Children of Arkham out there Harvey has been targeted twice (sure he didn't have to take off by himself from the hospital but they'd have gotten to him either way) and I can't see them stopping going after him unless they somehow strike up a deal (unlikely unless the psychosis really ramps up) or find a way to manipulate him (seems much more likely, he is not all there right now).
I could deal with Montoya being a villain if I had to. Although it would be a shame since she's like one of three people in the city who don't hate Bruce.
Another matter I need to bring up. Should Oswald really be redeemed? No matter how much I tried he really is dissing me much. There will be a choice in the future were you might or might not
I don't think we can redeem him, he's gone too far. We could prevent Harvey from becoming Two-Face, but in the event that we fail how does that work for Gotham at large ?
Many questions that Ep4 & 5 will have to answer.
He crossed a line at the debate. I might be able to forgive massacring the tower since they were probably criminals and we didn't really see that. But the debate. He killed that moderator. Hill might have been forgivable but Harvey? And he might have killed all the other witnesses if he hadn't been stopped. He had those cops killed...The Penguin has a lot to answer for and redemption, if it comes, can't be as easy as persuading him that the Children of Arkham are going too far and that he should stop hating Bruce.
I didn't notice, thanks for the heads up I'll check it out today.
I'm gonna mess oz up first chance I get
Punching him was soooo tempting I know I won't be as civilized as Batman, he's going to regret having slithered out of a vagina.
I don't think that Harvey can be stopped from becoming Two Face. In episode 3, we see Harvey develop Two Face tendencies early on when he says that Batman should be above the law and that he would make it so. When Bruce is hesitant about that, Harvey loses his temper. When Harvey sees Bruce at Selina's apartment he loses it and starts flipping a coin to decide who should be punished first, when he says Selina, I intervened before he could hurt her and I beat him up after he pulled out a knife. True that I saved Harvey from getting his face damaged from Oswald, yet in cartoons, movies, and comics, Two Face usually got his face burnt from an explosive, battery acid, or a chemical explosion. Two Face would then hate Batman for failing to save him in time. So yes I think that he will have his face changed in a different way.
He doesn't even have to hate Batman to still need to be stopped or maybe he can just hate Batman without getting his face messed up because Batman stops his efforts to make a police state.
And it's a little rich for Bruce to disagree about Batman being above the law. Batman is a vigilante. He commits assault and breaking and entering all the damn time. The cops barely tolerate his existence and everything he does pretty much is a crime. It's true there's a big difference between at least trying to do the right thing and not go too far and Harvey's words about taking the leash off and letting Batman do more (like Batman already doesn't do whatever he wants and thinks is right) but Bruce can't really disagree about Batman being above the law without being a huge hypocrite because what is the law ever going to do to Batman no matter what he does? Until they figure out who he really is, he's untouchable. He couldn't be more above the law.
That's why it's important to limit yourself. Even if you're above the law you need to limit yourself on how far you go and learn from it. That's why they have codes they need to strict themselves. Even killing needs some consideration. Hell, in my walkthrough on the first episode of the game I chose not to break the shooter's arm, but more then half of the majority chose to break the shooter's arm, which I was quite surprised by it. Then I brutalize Falcone, which I have no regrets because he deserved it, but a large majority chose to arrest him. I'm wondering about that since more then half chose to break the shooter's arm instead of sparing him, but chose to arrest Falcone and not brutalize him?
Anyway, in episode 3 there was an option that if you save Harvey you could hurt or threaten one of the Arkham member. I chose to threaten him since I want to think in his point of view on why he would join. Even the meeting with Harvey I had my Bruce told him that even if Batman is above the law he needs to respect the aspect of it. Which would bring up Batman limiting himself
It's important to see both sides of the argument, but also understand the logic of it and think of the right decision. Even if people will hate you for it, the results are what matters in the long-term
Either you die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain
With episode 4 in mind... Is he too far gone?
Can we still save him?
Every single Harvey scene... I can still see a bit of hope... A chance.
He's not always Two-Face. Harvey still exists.
But at this point he's the second coming of Hitler.
Fuck.
[removed]
I was thinking the same thing. There is a bit of Harvey in there when I came in as Batman, but the Two-Face persona just keeps butting in. The biggest problem however is did we make the right choice? Many send Harvey to Blackgate because he has absolutely no hope if he was send to Arkham. We know what happens in Arkham and we know Joker is there. So its not worth it to send Harvey to Arkham
Only chance, and I pray hopefully, will be in Episode 5. Can Harvey still be redeemed in that Episode? I'm hoping for a face reveal were Bruce reveals himself to Harvey as Batman. The very man that saved him in episode 2. How would Harvey feel about that? But also the chance for Harvey to finally take control over the Two-Face persona
Telltale better not take that possibility away from us
While it's impossible to know for sure just yet, I feel like sending Harvey to Blackgate for his recovery was probably the wrong decision. I mean, we all saw how backwards Arkham was and the Joker is there and we know Bruce and Harvey were trying to replace Arkham with a better facility.
But.
Gordon frames the decision as "Should he be punished for his crimes or actually receive help for his mental issues and maybe try to recover" and when Batman answers he says "he is the worst and needs to be punished" or "he's really dangerous but he needs help."
I really don't think the game is going for a possibility he'll be mentally better off if you send him to prison and they don't even try just because the Joker isn't there. It's pretty much just hoping it goes away on its own and we saw how well that worked before his arrest.
And that leaves Episode 5 if we have faced Penguin instead of Harvey. That episode will force us into a conflict with him. My only question however is will his fate be determined. That is what's going to worry me if many of us did fail to redeem Harvey
Sarah, I disagree though with that. My Batman reasons that he is equal to the law, yet he is in his own crime division. I let justice decide what to do with Falcone and in a way it did. I threatened the thug, instead of breaking his arm. That's not to say that my Batman is perfect. When Hill said that he ordered the hit, I was thinking on what to do, then Oswald killed him. If I was Batman, would I kill him or let him be arrested ? That was a decision that I was contemplating. I broke Oswald's legs for nearly killing a kid earlier that day. As an alter ego, my Batman is the necessity of Bruce. He punishes crime reasonably, not the Punisher way of torture and death. Batman never goes around outright killing the bad guys, he normally ties them up and leaves them for the police. That is no different than how Spiderman fights crime. I wouldn't say that either is above the law just because they fight crime.
Penguin is beyond redemption I'm afraid.
The reason I say that they are is that they are not, in fact, part of the law. Vigilantism is illegal even in-universe. Batman is breaking the law (and so is Spiderman) which is the reason Batman has had to flee from the police multiple times and they keep shooting at him. Trying to stick to the law as much as possible just makes Batman more responsible and after justice rather than vengeance. But what if Batman had decided to go around doing all the more violent choices and in fact was killing people? What could they do? Probably no more than they're already doing. It might change in that Gordon stops working with him and lets his people try to shoot at Batman but other than that Batman can't face repercussions. If the DA wants to charge him for something then he can't. Basically unless people find out who Batman is then he is above the law because he is unaccountable to anyone but himself. That doesn't mean Batman is running around with no internal morality or not listening to other people but that it is his choice.
Error. I meant Harvey instead of Penguin. Most people chose to face Harvey near the end of episode 4. I'll be facing him in episode 5
We know that Arkham is pretty shitty, but the way the choice was posed to us Arkham is the better option. If he were sent to Blackgate he would either be in solitary with no counseling/treatment or he'd be fending for his life constantly in gen. population (he is the D.A. of Gotham, criminals will want to hurt him).
This is just my opinion but when the Penguin was really annoying of whole Batman doesn't kill thing, there should have been a third option to kill him. It would be plausible "enough" moment of Bruce Wayne. Only like three people genuinely appreciate his efforts while others shit over him. Now if they're not allowed to kill certain characters, especially due potential sequels then they could have allowed to brutalize him.
It's Alfred who keeps him sane and probably only thing stopping him from going too far.
Batman is still a new hero, so that's why cops have been shooting at him. We will have to agree to disagree. Batman isn't above the law. If he killed, then it would be a major crime. He beats up bad guys, then ties them up so that they can be arrested. If a robbery was going on and you tied up the gunman, then that wouldn't be illegal. Batman keeps his identity hidden so that bad guys don't target Bruce and Alfred 24/7. Batman taking on mobsters is a risky move and they would love to find out who is behind that mask.
It's not anything about Batman personally or his actions, just that no one can hold him accountable unless he chooses. How can you he more above the law than that? Batman kills someone and it's a major crime but unless he turns himself in or they catch him the law simply does not apply. Superheroes are simply above the law.
Would you like if during fight scenes you have options to execute hencheman and a sort of meter showing public opinion of you in gotham? Think Fable where if you do bad things you are considered evil and get a reputation as such. If do good, peoples see you as good and their behavior/interaction towards you also changes.
Just played episode 5 and finished. Faced Harvey and I think I might have redeemed him in a way
Who else manage to redeem Harvey?
Me. So glad I went to the Wayne Enterprises, that scene alone was worth it.
Not Oz
Agreed. The scene was so fantastic it made Harvey a character worth trying to redeem. The interaction with Bruce and Harvey was so good. And what's even better is that Bruce Wayne is the one that saved Harvey and not Batman. That's something that has never happen because in every version it was Batman that tries to do good with the villains and not Bruce Wayne. This game marks the first time Bruce Wayne has actually done some real good to a villain. Instead of landing a blow with his fists and beating a villain Bruce lands a blow on Harvey with only his words and action, and it was such a great scene. This is a man reaching out to save his best friend from himself with only his words alone, and Bruce's last act to save his friend is putting away the coin. In a way, the coin represents Harvey's cage for Two-face to imprison, and for Bruce putting it away symbolizes him breaking his friend out. Forcing Harvey to make his own decision instead of relying on the coin as he breaks down in tears. It was such a fantastic scene to witness and a moment of triumph for us as the player whose goal was to redeem Harvey
8:56 - 15:49 - Bruce and Harvey scene
Oswald however is not so much. In fact it was quite bad that I stopped giving a damn about him. At this point it was obvious that Penguin is destined to be an enemy to both Bruce Wayne and Batman
Overall, a redeemed Harvey Dent, a villainous Penguin, and a dead Lady Arkham. Wonder how season 2 would pull it off
That is a really good interpretation and one I hadn't considered. Pocketing the coin represents helping Harvey and forcing him to choose. Even not being able to choose and shoot is a choice. In a pocketing but two-face playthrough trying to attack Bruce to get it back is a choice.
What does throwing the coin represent? Harvey blindly chases after it and falls off a balcony and could have been hurt far worse. In pursuit of the outcome dictated by the coin Harvey will blindly act in self-destructive and stupid ways because he's so fixated on his coin and refusing to choose beyond that.
I enjoyed how all of the characters played out in this series. I don't think that the characters were ever meant to be saved. We try to save them as Bruce because we know them personally and care about them. It's almost like if a former good friend that you had becomes a drug addict, you try to save them as you know the person that they used to be.
Exactly right. The coin is Two-Face imprisoning Harvey in his cage as he dictate his choice because Harvey is unable to make his own choice
This is something I've been thinking for a while, and with a possible Season 2 I have one character that should make an appearance now that there's a possibility of the Joker being a villain. Harleen Quinzel. If anybody remembers Episode 3, Harvey mentions having a therapist and it's a female. What if that person is Harleen Quinzel? I think she could be another redeemable villain if Telltales play their cards right, and with a redeemed Harvey then there's a possibility of him playing a role as an ally for Batman
Reason is I had this idea of a romance story with Harvey and Harleen. Parts of the idea actually came from "Tales from the Borderlands" were you have the option to ship Rhys with either Fiona or Sasha. What if that same concept can be applied to here? But have it three ways (or two). Bruce, Harvey, or Joker. For me I think it should be Harvey, because the man needs love. That would also play as a determined choice weather or not you would ship Harvey with Harleen. Harvey is still her patients as he reached out and opened up to her all the things he's done and regrets but wants to feel hopeful about the future, which led to Harleen slowly starts to fall for him. Again, that would also be determined for your action if you're willing to go for that route. The possibility of shipping two people you never thought would happen, but they get together
This season showed the possibility of redeeming a villain like Harvey. That should continue in season 2 as well with Harleen Quinzel as a possible redeemed villain
Hell, I found this strip by nebezial and I think Telltale should use it as a material for Harleen's story arc:
Take this concept and replace Poison Ivy with either Bruce/Batman or Harvey. Everything you do and the choices you made in the game would determined if Harleen Quinzel can be redeemed, or she will forever fall and become Harley Quinn. This would also determine Harvey's fate aswell. Succeed and the Two-Face persona will forever disappear, but fail and Two-Face reemerge and takes control once more. Two fractured people taking comfort into each other's arms
Who here would consider a redeemed Harleen Quinzel, and maybe ship her with Harvey Dent? That would also have Harvey as an ally to both Bruce and Batman. Maybe Telltale would create an original character for Harvey
[spoiler]
Well I tried doing this for the game. I picked choices for Harvey (save him and not sleep with Selina) and it still ended with the same result. You do have some consequences, but I've noticed that Telltale doesn't give you that much control.
I think it would be really cool if they could do that, but they have to keep true to the character in some way. I don't think it would be viable if they made some of the iconic antagonists of the game buddy-buddy with Bruce. However, if they had a similar dynamic like Batman and Catwoman, I may be able to see that happening.
I don't think Harvey ever clarified the gender of his therapist.
If you're talking about the game, then Bruce did.
When he visits Harvey in the Mayor's office you can pick the option about seeing his therapist. Bruce refers to the therapist as a "her"
That is correct. Harvey's therapist is a her and it should be Harleen Quinzel. The idea I thought of would heavily depend on the choices the player made. Especially with the Joker involved. The player has to convince Harleen not to follow him and build the relationship between Harvey and Harleen were they do end up together. Again, that heavily depends on the dialogue because even the wrong dialogue could have negative consequences, and Harleen would become Harley
That also brings back the concept I brought up about another character taking place of the villain. If you did succeed in redeeming Harleen and have her shipped with Harvey then there's one character that could be a good replacement, and it's the most obvious one since episode 4. Dr. Joan Leland. Because she is the one character that got close to Joker, and Joker herself could play it to his advantage. Leland did teach Joker how to play checker and it would make an interesting concept if she unknowingly played a hand in creating the Joker. Giving the character the idea of playing into a person's mind and mold it as a game to him
What result you got out of it?
I don't think that works. Harvey's pre-Arkham therapist isn't going to be a therapist at Arkham and if she's just an outside therapist where does she meet the Joker? She could be his therapist at Arkham and have run into the Joker there (but not fully converted).
I really hope we wouldn't be asked to ship a therapist and her severely mentally ill patient, especially if doing so was the way to help him recover. So unethical and exploitative and skeevy.