He did, and Jane didn't, because Jane is mentally fit to take care of two children, while Kenny is prove to daily outbursts of recklessness that—more often that not—get in the way of his intentions.
The fact that Jane says "I can't do this alone, is that what you want to hear?" just proves it that she's just scared to be on her own again. That's pretty selfish in my book. And she left her sister to the walkers to save herself, what makes you think she won't do it again with Clem or AJ if it comes to a situation where it's her or them?
Ignore that she can decide to let them in by herself.
and encourages Clem to go.
He did, and Jane didn't, because Jane is mentally fit to take care of two children, while Kenny is prove … moreto daily outbursts of recklessness that—more often that not—get in the way of his intentions.
She doesn't want the family to join them in the first place, it's pretty obvious from her reaction and what she says to Clem if she turns them away. "Thanks for doing that, after looking at that kid I wasn't sure I could do it myself." She just doesn't want to do the dirty job herself. Just like she wanted Clem to be the one to kill Kenny.
Ignore that she can decide to let them in by herself.
And she left her sister to the walkers to save herself
Jane and Jaime were cornered on a rooftop, the younger sister had left her will to live, and the only way of mantaining distance with the walkers was by jumping onto another close rooftop; Jaime would not collaborate, and Jane could not throw her. The only choice Jane had was between dying together with her sister or continuing to survive.
Who? Jane?
Yes! You will be surprised to hear that she will allow the family into Howe's by herself if Clementine doesn't say anything.
He did, and Jane didn't, because Jane is mentally fit to take care of two children, while Kenny is prove to daily outbursts of recklessness … morethat—more often that not—get in the way of his intentions.
The fact that Jane says "I can't do this alone, is that what you want to hear?" just proves it that she's just scared to be on her own again. That's pretty selfish in my book. And she left her sister to the walkers to save herself, what makes you think she won't do it again with Clem or AJ if it comes to a situation where it's her or them?
Ignore that she can decide to let them in by herself.
Who? Jane?
So, Kenny didn't do anything and Lee didn't die. See? He didn't leave Lee to die then. He just didn't risk his own life for someone who hasn't even sided with him in a moment where his family's life depends on him. Kenny is a loyal guy. These type of guys are loyal to people beyond reason instead of ideals. They just expect the same thing in return. Especially after Kenny saving Lee more than once. (The most obvious one is saving Lee after Larry KOs Lee)
No. If you don't side with him, Kenny will not leave Lee to die.
Yes, he does. Thankfully, Lilly comes to save Lee's life. Had she n… moreot been there, and Lee would've died with Kenny idly standing by, doing nothing.
I did not put Kenny's family in danger. My Lee and Lilly were willing to take the risk of performing CPR in Larry so he could possibly live. Kenny put his family above Lilly's family and decides that Larry's life is not worth fighting for.
After he does it, Lee frees him out of the meat locker so they could save his family and still no sign of gratitude.
Finally, he leaves you to your fate with Danny St. John. when, as we all know, he had a chance to easily intervene and save Lee.
My point still stands. Even after Lee saved his family, Kenny once again decided to leave him to die. He is despicable and that is not ok.
Jane and Jaime were cornered on a rooftop, the younger sister had left her will to live, and the only way of mantaining distance with the walkers was by jumping onto another close rooftop; Jaime would not collaborate, and Jane could not throw her. The only choice Jane had was between dying together with her sister or continuing to survive.
And how do you know if Jane couldn't save her somehow? She was ready to leave Sarah behind but Clem managed to get her out. That's the difference between Jane and Kenny. Jane would do anything to survive. Kenny is willing to sacrifice himself, trying to save the ones he cares about.
Yes! You will be surprised to hear that she will allow the family into Howe's by herself if Clementine doesn't say anything.
Still, my point stands:
"Thanks for doing that, after looking at that kid I wasn't sure I could do it myself." She just doesn't want to do the dirty job herself.
And she left her sister to the walkers to save herself
Jane and Jaime were cornered on a rooftop, the younger sister had left her wi… morell to live, and the only way of mantaining distance with the walkers was by jumping onto another close rooftop; Jaime would not collaborate, and Jane could not throw her. The only choice Jane had was between dying together with her sister or continuing to survive.
Who? Jane?
Yes! You will be surprised to hear that she will allow the family into Howe's by herself if Clementine doesn't say anything.
But Kenny did intend for Lee to die, or to at least let them kill eachother. If we're evaluating Kenny's personality and faults here, we are looking at what Kenny does and thinks. He did not know Lilly was going to come and save Lee, it coul've gone either way - Lee dying or not - and he wouldn't have cared. Not acting is an action, that's what I've been thaught in my schools Philosophy classes. Not acting defines you just as any other actions does.
He just didn't risk his own life for someone who hasn't even sided with him in a moment where his family's life depends on him. Kenny is a loyal guy. These type of guys are loyal to people beyond reason instead of ideals. They just expect the same thing in return.
My Lee defended Duck in the drugstore. My Lee gave his son food, and wanted to give him and his wife too. My Lee agreed with his plan of eventually leaving the motor inn. My Lee freed him from the meatlocker so we could go save his family. All that was disregarded by Kenny for the simple fact that I did not opt to smash Larry's head. I had shown him loyalty, he showed me his middle finger. He showed he cared for nothing than his own selfish desires. He showed how his loyalty wavered the minute I did something he disaproved. That is not a loyal person, that is an opportunist. You let lee be his slave? Good on you, you have a master that's proud of his little puppy.
Especially after Kenny saving Lee more than once. (The most obvious one is saving Lee after Larry KOs Lee)
Especially after Kenny saving Lee once, and leaving him to die three times because of the most petty reasons you can find. Kenny will be your loyal friend until the moment you disagree with him or you do something he doesn't like. He expects you to understand his actions, yet shows no effort of understanding yours.
Yet again you don't adress my point. Kenny still leaves Lee to die after Lee directly saves his family. Considering that situation, can you really call him a good person? The saint you paint him as?
So, Kenny didn't do anything and Lee didn't die. See? He didn't leave Lee to die then. He just didn't risk his own life for someone who hasn… more't even sided with him in a moment where his family's life depends on him. Kenny is a loyal guy. These type of guys are loyal to people beyond reason instead of ideals. They just expect the same thing in return. Especially after Kenny saving Lee more than once. (The most obvious one is saving Lee after Larry KOs Lee)
It's funny how you compare her to Kenny when I remember Carol killing two people from the group and burning them because they were sick, or killing a little girl because she didn't understand how the world worked now. Kenny never did anything as cruel as that. Now you could argue that she did that for the safety of the group, which is exactly the same reasoning behind Kenny's decisions. The only reason why he seems angry all the time, is because the entire group is always against him and want to do opposite things (which most of the times are as irrational or even worse than what Kenny wants to do).
You're defending your stance flawlessly, Iron, though I would recommend you to stop iterating your arguments after the first couple of rounds; the interlocutor will not give way even if you explain in a hundred different ways.
So, Kenny didn't do anything and Lee didn't die.
But Kenny did intend for Lee to die, or to at least let them kill eachother. If we'… morere evaluating Kenny's personality and faults here, we are looking at what Kenny does and thinks. He did not know Lilly was going to come and save Lee, it coul've gone either way - Lee dying or not - and he wouldn't have cared. Not acting is an action, that's what I've been thaught in my schools Philosophy classes. Not acting defines you just as any other actions does.
He just didn't risk his own life for someone who hasn't even sided with him in a moment where his family's life depends on him. Kenny is a loyal guy. These type of guys are loyal to people beyond reason instead of ideals. They just expect the same thing in return.
My Lee defended Duck in the drugstore. My Lee gave his son food, and wanted to give him and his wife too. My Lee agreed with his plan of eventually leaving the motor … [view original content]
And you think that makes it better? If anything it's worse that she wants Clem to do it, knowing full well Kenny is her friend, despite if you side with him throughout the game or not. The fact that she would put Clem through that and put that burden on her shoulders just shows that Jane really doesn't care for her that much.
She did that so Clementine would intervene, in the original scene Jane was the one killing Kenny, and even though he was the one losing, Cle… morem had the option to kill Kenny.
Remember she only got attacked by Kenny when she wasn't using her knife, Jane could have ended Kenny very quickly.
And, yes, you are right. We do not need another endless back and forth about Kenny, especially considering that this one seems to be going nowhere (not that past ones went that far either...)
I never thought I'd see the day where you changed your avatar :OOOOO
You're defending your stance flawlessly, Iron, though I would recommend you to stop iterating your arguments after the first couple of rounds; the interlocutor will not give way even if you explain in a hundred different ways.
"In your and my playthrough" Kenny didn't intend for Lee to die. He was simply frozen and couldn't get to help Lee and risk his life when his family needed him the most, after what happened with Larry. I even got angry at him first but then I understood it. You're just trying to guess Kenny's inaction in the most pessimist way.
You act like Kenny did nothing for you. Kenny took you and Clementine into his family's car. Kenny brought you to Macon. Kenny saved your life there too. Kenny then saved your life again by fixing the RV at the motel and taking you into it when they were attacked. Kenny even saved your walkie-talkie, Ben or Christa's lives so that you didn't have to. Kenny did even more things for you that I don't remember atm.
Kenny especially states you couldn''t be even on the middle on that one to you to inform you that how important that decision was for him. You didn't have to side with Kenny in none of those other decisions and he would still be loyal to you to the death. But in that one he needed Lee's support and he told him how important that decision was. I didn't do what he asked but I understood him.
So, Kenny didn't do anything and Lee didn't die.
But Kenny did intend for Lee to die, or to at least let them kill eachother. If we'… morere evaluating Kenny's personality and faults here, we are looking at what Kenny does and thinks. He did not know Lilly was going to come and save Lee, it coul've gone either way - Lee dying or not - and he wouldn't have cared. Not acting is an action, that's what I've been thaught in my schools Philosophy classes. Not acting defines you just as any other actions does.
He just didn't risk his own life for someone who hasn't even sided with him in a moment where his family's life depends on him. Kenny is a loyal guy. These type of guys are loyal to people beyond reason instead of ideals. They just expect the same thing in return.
My Lee defended Duck in the drugstore. My Lee gave his son food, and wanted to give him and his wife too. My Lee agreed with his plan of eventually leaving the motor … [view original content]
Thank you! : )
And, yes, you are right. We do not need another endless back and forth about Kenny, especially considering that this one s… moreeems to be going nowhere (not that past ones went that far either...)
I never thought I'd see the day where you changed your avatar :OOOOO
Why is okay when Kenny is mad because of Sarita, Katjaa and Duck, but is wrong when Lilly is mad because she lost her father and she can't trust anyone in the group?
The point isn't whether Kenny is truly right or wrong, as that lies solely on the player's perspective, but it's that while his behaviour is at times certainty "mad", there does lie beneath all that, reasons. He lost his family and that in no way excuses some of his actions, but it does explain why he is the way he is. Kenny's a man who's had everything he loved taken from him, blaming himself for Duck and Katjaa's deaths and by season 2, he's desperately trying, in anyway he can, to not let it happen again with Clem and AJ. Sure, I'm not denying he isn't a dick by the way he goes about doing it, but he did truly believe that what he was doing was for the best.
Now, Lilly, on the other hand, who I actually forgave, is slightly different than Kenny. You see, unlike him, Lilly was responsible for killing a regular character, Carley or Doug, which is probably harder for some players to get over than, let's say, Kenny's treatment of Arvo in season 2. Not saying that's right, as I personally did sympathise with her character (not excusing her actions), but I suppose Lilly just doesn't get the same amount of understanding from fans due to how things turned out.
There is reason to Kenny's madness
Clementine lost Lee, her parents, her friends, all her life and she was just a kid.
Do you see… more her being crazy?
Why is okay when Kenny is mad because of Sarita, Katjaa and Duck, but is wrong when Lilly is mad because she lost her father and she can't trust anyone in the group?
Yeah, that's the obvious line of thinking. Also, Buricko and Vitali probably would've gotten them kicked out real quick if Edith didn't have to turn them away.
She doesn't even treat or look at Carver as if she hated him. She only hates him when Alvin is killed.
Hmm...I suppose that is true. After all, she just kinda takes the whole "Let's go home as a family" egotism on the nose if Clementine saved Alvin.
As I remember, Bonnie did nothing, she only sent Clementine to get bit so she could open the door where the water was, yes you can tell her to open the door herself, but if Clementine does something Bonnie work is.. doing nothing!
If being the keyword there. She still helped look for supplies alongside Mike, tries to help Clementine when the walker grabs her, and can even attempt to carry the water herself, which earns her a small shiner.
What a terrible thing to do to a stranger in a zombie-apocalyptic world.
...Can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, here. Then again, Confuscius say:"It is better to be smartass than dumbass."
"What the fuck are you looking at, bitch? Don't act like you didn't enjoy every second of it." Then there's him habit of being touchy with h… moreer and his viewing of her as a "strong woman".
Then she would just have told Alvin she got raped, instead of just having sex with him so when she has the baby it makes sense.
She doesn't even treat or look at Carver as if she hated him. She only hates him when Alvin is killed.
Yeah, Clementine, Bonnie, and Mike were the only ones with their heads on straight and their bodies in working order in that episode, if I'm being honest.
As I remember, Bonnie did nothing, she only sent Clementine to get bit so she could open the door where the water was, yes you can tell her to open the door herself, but if Clementine does something Bonnie work is.. doing nothing!
She still tried to do so, pressured Clementine into doing it, threatened him and indirectly his sister, and sent him off wi… [view original content]
But Kenny did intend for Lee to die, or to at least let them kill eachother. If we're evaluating Kenny's personality and faults here, we are looking at what Kenny does and thinks. He did not know Lilly was going to come and save Lee, it coul've gone either way - Lee dying or not - and he wouldn't have cared. Not acting is an action, that's what I've been thaught in my schools Philosophy classes. Not acting defines you just as any other actions does.
While you are correct, I think you're ignoring a small detail. If you look at Kenny's face during that scene, you can see that he seems to be genuinely scared and somewhat confused, unsure of how to act. Of course, had you sided with Kenny in the meat locker, he would've brought himself to defend Lee, but I suppose due to him loosing a touch of trust in Lee after the disagreement in the Larry situation, he couldn't bring himself to get over that fear and defend someone he believed put his family's life at risk. Not saying it's right and it's far from being Kenny's finest moment, but I do think he was actually scared.
Oh, and had Lee died, I'm sure Kenny would've felt guilt for not trying to save him. He's not a complete monster. We saw that when Shawn died, someone he hardly knew, yet he still expressed quite a lot of regret for how things turned out, blaming himself for his death and wishing he had done more.
My Lee defended Duck in the drugstore. My Lee gave his son food, and wanted to give him and his wife too. My Lee agreed with his plan of eventually leaving the motor inn. My Lee freed him from the meatlocker so we could go save his family. All that was disregarded by Kenny for the simple fact that I did not opt to smash Larry's head. I had shown him loyalty, he showed me his middle finger. He showed he cared for nothing than his own selfish desires. He showed how his loyalty wavered the minute I did something he disaproved. That is not a loyal person, that is an opportunist. You let lee be his slave? Good on you, you have a master that's proud of his little puppy.
That's because, in Kenny's view, Lee was directly putting his family's life at risk, the people he loved above all else. To him, there was no other option for Lee to take in the meat locker. It was smash Larry's brains in or die. To take a risk in trying to save Larry goes against everything Kenny thought he knew about Lee. It was a crucial decision and he needed someone to support him, so for Lee to just turn around and attempt CPR on Larry, putting Clementine, Katjaa/Duck and their own lives on the line, is a massive betrayal to him.
And yes, I know Lee still ends up saving Katjaa and Duck, but Kenny's stubborn and as much as I like him, there's no doubt that he hates to admit he was wrong about something.
Yet again you don't adress my point. Kenny still leaves Lee to die after Lee directly saves his family. Considering that situation, can you really call him a good person? The saint you paint him as?
No, of course not. Kenny's far from being a saint and there are hundreds of times he can be a complete bollox, but his intentions are often from the best of places.
So, Kenny didn't do anything and Lee didn't die.
But Kenny did intend for Lee to die, or to at least let them kill eachother. If we'… morere evaluating Kenny's personality and faults here, we are looking at what Kenny does and thinks. He did not know Lilly was going to come and save Lee, it coul've gone either way - Lee dying or not - and he wouldn't have cared. Not acting is an action, that's what I've been thaught in my schools Philosophy classes. Not acting defines you just as any other actions does.
He just didn't risk his own life for someone who hasn't even sided with him in a moment where his family's life depends on him. Kenny is a loyal guy. These type of guys are loyal to people beyond reason instead of ideals. They just expect the same thing in return.
My Lee defended Duck in the drugstore. My Lee gave his son food, and wanted to give him and his wife too. My Lee agreed with his plan of eventually leaving the motor … [view original content]
She stabbed Kenny's guts. What are you talking about? And if what you say is true (although there's 0 chance for it to be true) Jane was even more psychopath than I could imagine.
She did that so Clementine would intervene, in the original scene Jane was the one killing Kenny, and even though he was the one losing, Cle… morem had the option to kill Kenny.
Remember she only got attacked by Kenny when she wasn't using her knife, Jane could have ended Kenny very quickly.
Jane and Jaime were cornered on a rooftop, the younger sister had left her will to live, and the only way of mantaining distance with the wa… morelkers was by jumping onto another close rooftop; Jaime would not collaborate, and Jane could not throw her. The only choice Jane had was between dying together with her sister or continuing to survive.
And how do you know if Jane couldn't save her somehow? She was ready to leave Sarah behind but Clem managed to get her out. That's the difference between Jane and Kenny. Jane would do anything to survive. Kenny is willing to sacrifice himself, trying to save the ones he cares about.
Yes! You will be surprised to hear that she will allow the family into Howe's by herself if Clementine doesn't say anything.
Still, my point stands:
"Thanks for doing that, after looking at that kid I wasn't sure I could do it myself." She just doesn't want to do the dirty job herself.
Her endings at Howe's are completely disappointing and feel out of place
I'm going to disagree with you there
I actually like the… more Jane endings
Well, the one where you let the family in, at least. The one where you turn them away... not so much
Side with Lilly then
No, she killed Carley in front of everyone with no hesitation.
If you always side with Lilly he tells you… more that when you go to search a boat near Crowford, and he says the same if not worst if you tell you are a murerer with Carley alive
Sorry, I didn't get that.
We all are Lee. #LeeLifeMatters
I have MY Lee and you can have YOUR Lee.
Because you always side with him?
I didn't agree with him about stealing the stuff from the station wagon and letting Ben die yet he still came
you can't call Carver evil since if you are awful nice with him as Clem he treats you just fine.
He killed Walter, an innocent man, and beat Kenny down even though he gave him the radio.
And you think that makes it better? If anything it's worse that she wants Clem to do it, knowing full well Kenny is her friend, despite if y… moreou side with him throughout the game or not. The fact that she would put Clem through that and put that burden on her shoulders just shows that Jane really doesn't care for her that much.
Despite your choices, Kenny was still a familiar face to Clem and even if you choose to kill him, she is heartbroken by it. So even if you want to believe Clem hated him (like you seem to hate), she is not a monster and Jane making her kill him is the most fucked up thing I have ever seen any character pull off.
It's funny how you compare her to Kenny when I remember Carol killing two people from the group and burning them because they were sick, or … morekilling a little girl because she didn't understand how the world worked now. Kenny never did anything as cruel as that. Now you could argue that she did that for the safety of the group, which is exactly the same reasoning behind Kenny's decisions. The only reason why he seems angry all the time, is because the entire group is always against him and want to do opposite things (which most of the times are as irrational or even worse than what Kenny wants to do).
Agreed. There's no point in arguing over each other's opinions. Whatever any of us say, we won't change each other's views of these characters, so... We'll just have to agree to disagree.
Despite your choices, Kenny was still a familiar face to Clem and even if you choose to kill him, she is heartbroken by it. So even if you w… moreant to believe Clem hated him (like you seem to hate), she is not a monster and Jane making her kill him is the most fucked up thing I have ever seen any character pull off.
Larry was already dead. Even if you say there was a small chance they could revive him, Kenny didn't think so. It's a verry different situation. As for Ben, he just learned he caused the death of his entire family by helping the bandits. Eventually he later forgives Ben and sacrifices himself for him. He uses his only bullet to save Ben from getting eaten alive by walkers although that meant he would be the one to be eaten alive by walkers.
What? Lee didn't kill Larry. First of all, Larry was already dead, he stopped breathing. Second, Lee helps Kenny. He grabs Lilly while Kenny "kills" Larry. Kenny also didn't make Lee kill Ben. I always side with Kenny, but despite him giving that subtle look to drop Ben, I never do, because Clem wouldn't want me to. It's completely different from what Jane does to Clementine.
Whatever makes you sleep better at night, handsome.
Oh, he saved Ben after he wanted you to kill him, what if you killed him already? is he going to save him?
Nop, he is going to be VERY HAPPY with your choice.
Larry was already dead. Even if you say there was a small chance they could revive him, Kenny didn't think so. It's a verry different situat… moreion. As for Ben, he just learned he caused the death of his entire family by helping the bandits. Eventually he later forgives Ben and sacrifices himself for him. He uses his only bullet to save Ben from getting eaten alive by walkers although that meant he would be the one to be eaten alive by walkers.
I do come to the forum open to the possibility of dropping my current opinions and adopting more sensible ones, though—if other users are able to show me why their own ideas are the most correct.
This rather easily happens regarding the moral and pragmatic evaluation of an action. However, challenging the very opinion that one has on a character is challenging and just too complex; I don't think I've ever witnessed that here! The tricky part is recognizing when a discussion has the potential to prompt both interlocutors to learn and when we're going in circles.
Agreed. There's no point in arguing over each other's opinions. Whatever any of us say, we won't change each other's views of these characters, so... We'll just have to agree to disagree.
What? Lee didn't kill Larry. First of all, Larry was already dead, he stopped breathing.
If you want to think that, do so, I like to think that Lilly was a transsexual Jesus, we all can think what we want!.
Second, Lee helps Kenny. He grabs Lilly while Kenny "kills" Larry.
Next time a friend ask me to kill someone, I'm going to tell him: Ok, but I restrain him and you kill him, I don't want blood in my new manicure.
Kenny also didn't make Lee kill Ben.
Did Jane make Clem kill Kenny? No, but she expected her to do so, same as Kenny did for Lee, that's why he didn't help Ben and Lee, he just wanted Lee to drop the kid.
It's completely different from what Jane does to Clementine.
Maybe I forget, but as far as I know, Jane doesn't say anything to Clem about shooting Kenny, she doesn't even ask for help as I recall.
What? Lee didn't kill Larry. First of all, Larry was already dead, he stopped breathing. Second, Lee helps Kenny. He grabs Lilly while Kenny… more "kills" Larry. Kenny also didn't make Lee kill Ben. I always side with Kenny, but despite him giving that subtle look to drop Ben, I never do, because Clem wouldn't want me to. It's completely different from what Jane does to Clementine.
That's not revival. It's just a tightening muscle and the nervous system's reaction to what Lee's doing there. Your body still reacts very limitedly for some time after you die.
Telltale cleverly used that to create a question in the player's head.
Also, this is completely beside the point. The guy was dead and Kenny didn't think there's a chance they could revive him regardless of whether they did or not. Considering the danger a turned Larry could create he smashed his head.
Larry was already dead.
Whatever makes you sleep better at night, handsome.
Oh, he saved Ben after he wanted you to kill him, what if you killed him already? is he going to save him?
Nop, he is going to be VERY HAPPY with your choice.
Comments
The fact that Jane says "I can't do this alone, is that what you want to hear?" just proves it that she's just scared to be on her own again. That's pretty selfish in my book. And she left her sister to the walkers to save herself, what makes you think she won't do it again with Clem or AJ if it comes to a situation where it's her or them?
Who? Jane?
looks like this is turning into another kenny vs jane thread
Jane and Jaime were cornered on a rooftop, the younger sister had left her will to live, and the only way of mantaining distance with the walkers was by jumping onto another close rooftop; Jaime would not collaborate, and Jane could not throw her. The only choice Jane had was between dying together with her sister or continuing to survive.
Yes! You will be surprised to hear that she will allow the family into Howe's by herself if Clementine doesn't say anything.
The "¿" symbol is meant to represent sarcasm.
So, Kenny didn't do anything and Lee didn't die. See? He didn't leave Lee to die then. He just didn't risk his own life for someone who hasn't even sided with him in a moment where his family's life depends on him. Kenny is a loyal guy. These type of guys are loyal to people beyond reason instead of ideals. They just expect the same thing in return. Especially after Kenny saving Lee more than once. (The most obvious one is saving Lee after Larry KOs Lee)
And how do you know if Jane couldn't save her somehow? She was ready to leave Sarah behind but Clem managed to get her out. That's the difference between Jane and Kenny. Jane would do anything to survive. Kenny is willing to sacrifice himself, trying to save the ones he cares about.
Still, my point stands:
Yes. It being sarcasm confirms what I have been saying all along.
But Kenny did intend for Lee to die, or to at least let them kill eachother. If we're evaluating Kenny's personality and faults here, we are looking at what Kenny does and thinks. He did not know Lilly was going to come and save Lee, it coul've gone either way - Lee dying or not - and he wouldn't have cared. Not acting is an action, that's what I've been thaught in my schools Philosophy classes. Not acting defines you just as any other actions does.
My Lee defended Duck in the drugstore. My Lee gave his son food, and wanted to give him and his wife too. My Lee agreed with his plan of eventually leaving the motor inn. My Lee freed him from the meatlocker so we could go save his family. All that was disregarded by Kenny for the simple fact that I did not opt to smash Larry's head. I had shown him loyalty, he showed me his middle finger. He showed he cared for nothing than his own selfish desires. He showed how his loyalty wavered the minute I did something he disaproved. That is not a loyal person, that is an opportunist. You let lee be his slave? Good on you, you have a master that's proud of his little puppy.
Especially after Kenny saving Lee once, and leaving him to die three times because of the most petty reasons you can find. Kenny will be your loyal friend until the moment you disagree with him or you do something he doesn't like. He expects you to understand his actions, yet shows no effort of understanding yours.
Yet again you don't adress my point. Kenny still leaves Lee to die after Lee directly saves his family. Considering that situation, can you really call him a good person? The saint you paint him as?
It's funny how you compare her to Kenny when I remember Carol killing two people from the group and burning them because they were sick, or killing a little girl because she didn't understand how the world worked now. Kenny never did anything as cruel as that. Now you could argue that she did that for the safety of the group, which is exactly the same reasoning behind Kenny's decisions. The only reason why he seems angry all the time, is because the entire group is always against him and want to do opposite things (which most of the times are as irrational or even worse than what Kenny wants to do).
You're defending your stance flawlessly, Iron, though I would recommend you to stop iterating your arguments after the first couple of rounds; the interlocutor will not give way even if you explain in a hundred different ways.
And you think that makes it better? If anything it's worse that she wants Clem to do it, knowing full well Kenny is her friend, despite if you side with him throughout the game or not. The fact that she would put Clem through that and put that burden on her shoulders just shows that Jane really doesn't care for her that much.
If this is the case, please explain.
[removed]
Thank you! : )
And, yes, you are right. We do not need another endless back and forth about Kenny, especially considering that this one seems to be going nowhere (not that past ones went that far either...)
I never thought I'd see the day where you changed your avatar :OOOOO
"In your and my playthrough" Kenny didn't intend for Lee to die. He was simply frozen and couldn't get to help Lee and risk his life when his family needed him the most, after what happened with Larry. I even got angry at him first but then I understood it. You're just trying to guess Kenny's inaction in the most pessimist way.
You act like Kenny did nothing for you. Kenny took you and Clementine into his family's car. Kenny brought you to Macon. Kenny saved your life there too. Kenny then saved your life again by fixing the RV at the motel and taking you into it when they were attacked. Kenny even saved your walkie-talkie, Ben or Christa's lives so that you didn't have to. Kenny did even more things for you that I don't remember atm.
Kenny especially states you couldn''t be even on the middle on that one to you to inform you that how important that decision was for him. You didn't have to side with Kenny in none of those other decisions and he would still be loyal to you to the death. But in that one he needed Lee's support and he told him how important that decision was. I didn't do what he asked but I understood him.
At this point I would rather have the thread closed.
I changed my avatar briefly for Halloween!
The point isn't whether Kenny is truly right or wrong, as that lies solely on the player's perspective, but it's that while his behaviour is at times certainty "mad", there does lie beneath all that, reasons. He lost his family and that in no way excuses some of his actions, but it does explain why he is the way he is. Kenny's a man who's had everything he loved taken from him, blaming himself for Duck and Katjaa's deaths and by season 2, he's desperately trying, in anyway he can, to not let it happen again with Clem and AJ. Sure, I'm not denying he isn't a dick by the way he goes about doing it, but he did truly believe that what he was doing was for the best.
Now, Lilly, on the other hand, who I actually forgave, is slightly different than Kenny. You see, unlike him, Lilly was responsible for killing a regular character, Carley or Doug, which is probably harder for some players to get over than, let's say, Kenny's treatment of Arvo in season 2. Not saying that's right, as I personally did sympathise with her character (not excusing her actions), but I suppose Lilly just doesn't get the same amount of understanding from fans due to how things turned out.
Yeah, that's the obvious line of thinking. Also, Buricko and Vitali probably would've gotten them kicked out real quick if Edith didn't have to turn them away.
Hmm...I suppose that is true. After all, she just kinda takes the whole "Let's go home as a family" egotism on the nose if Clementine saved Alvin.
If being the keyword there. She still helped look for supplies alongside Mike, tries to help Clementine when the walker grabs her, and can even attempt to carry the water herself, which earns her a small shiner.
...Can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, here. Then again, Confuscius say:"It is better to be smartass than dumbass."
I love little moments like that.
While you are correct, I think you're ignoring a small detail. If you look at Kenny's face during that scene, you can see that he seems to be genuinely scared and somewhat confused, unsure of how to act. Of course, had you sided with Kenny in the meat locker, he would've brought himself to defend Lee, but I suppose due to him loosing a touch of trust in Lee after the disagreement in the Larry situation, he couldn't bring himself to get over that fear and defend someone he believed put his family's life at risk. Not saying it's right and it's far from being Kenny's finest moment, but I do think he was actually scared.
Oh, and had Lee died, I'm sure Kenny would've felt guilt for not trying to save him. He's not a complete monster. We saw that when Shawn died, someone he hardly knew, yet he still expressed quite a lot of regret for how things turned out, blaming himself for his death and wishing he had done more.
That's because, in Kenny's view, Lee was directly putting his family's life at risk, the people he loved above all else. To him, there was no other option for Lee to take in the meat locker. It was smash Larry's brains in or die. To take a risk in trying to save Larry goes against everything Kenny thought he knew about Lee. It was a crucial decision and he needed someone to support him, so for Lee to just turn around and attempt CPR on Larry, putting Clementine, Katjaa/Duck and their own lives on the line, is a massive betrayal to him.
And yes, I know Lee still ends up saving Katjaa and Duck, but Kenny's stubborn and as much as I like him, there's no doubt that he hates to admit he was wrong about something.
No, of course not. Kenny's far from being a saint and there are hundreds of times he can be a complete bollox, but his intentions are often from the best of places.
She stabbed Kenny's guts. What are you talking about? And if what you say is true (although there's 0 chance for it to be true) Jane was even more psychopath than I could imagine.
126 new comments. Jesus Christ. I love Kenny but goddamn, the man hasn't been the center of a thread too many times yet? Fucking hell.
This thread right now.
I appreciate you spending your time in this conversation of ours, and I believe it's time to close it.
I love the one you turn them away, they say "What.. Whater if are dangerous"
And Clem with a badass face, pull out her gun and says "What if I am?"
That is in Ep 3, we are talking about start of Ep 3, Ep 2 and Ep 1, if your Lee knows the future is not my fault.
Really? Mine when Ben was alive said "if he goes I don't go" like a little kid.
And Kenny beat the shit out of Arvo, threats Mark and Jane like shit, didn't want to give Rebecca a few days to rest, and you still love him.
He did nothing YOU consider is bad.
Kenny was not a friend of my Clementine.
Despite your choices, Kenny was still a familiar face to Clem and even if you choose to kill him, she is heartbroken by it. So even if you want to believe Clem hated him (like you seem to hate), she is not a monster and Jane making her kill him is the most fucked up thing I have ever seen any character pull off.
I stand corrected.
Agreed. There's no point in arguing over each other's opinions. Whatever any of us say, we won't change each other's views of these characters, so... We'll just have to agree to disagree.
As fucked up as Kenny making Lee kill Larry? or Ben?
Larry was already dead. Even if you say there was a small chance they could revive him, Kenny didn't think so. It's a verry different situation. As for Ben, he just learned he caused the death of his entire family by helping the bandits. Eventually he later forgives Ben and sacrifices himself for him. He uses his only bullet to save Ben from getting eaten alive by walkers although that meant he would be the one to be eaten alive by walkers.
What? Lee didn't kill Larry. First of all, Larry was already dead, he stopped breathing. Second, Lee helps Kenny. He grabs Lilly while Kenny "kills" Larry. Kenny also didn't make Lee kill Ben. I always side with Kenny, but despite him giving that subtle look to drop Ben, I never do, because Clem wouldn't want me to. It's completely different from what Jane does to Clementine.
Whatever makes you sleep better at night, handsome.
Oh, he saved Ben after he wanted you to kill him, what if you killed him already? is he going to save him?
Nop, he is going to be VERY HAPPY with your choice.
I do come to the forum open to the possibility of dropping my current opinions and adopting more sensible ones, though—if other users are able to show me why their own ideas are the most correct.
This rather easily happens regarding the moral and pragmatic evaluation of an action. However, challenging the very opinion that one has on a character is challenging and just too complex; I don't think I've ever witnessed that here! The tricky part is recognizing when a discussion has the potential to prompt both interlocutors to learn and when we're going in circles.
No! Please! That expression can't be pronounced!
If you want to think that, do so, I like to think that Lilly was a transsexual Jesus, we all can think what we want!.
Next time a friend ask me to kill someone, I'm going to tell him: Ok, but I restrain him and you kill him, I don't want blood in my new manicure.
Did Jane make Clem kill Kenny? No, but she expected her to do so, same as Kenny did for Lee, that's why he didn't help Ben and Lee, he just wanted Lee to drop the kid.
Maybe I forget, but as far as I know, Jane doesn't say anything to Clem about shooting Kenny, she doesn't even ask for help as I recall.
That's not revival. It's just a tightening muscle and the nervous system's reaction to what Lee's doing there. Your body still reacts very limitedly for some time after you die.
Telltale cleverly used that to create a question in the player's head.
Also, this is completely beside the point. The guy was dead and Kenny didn't think there's a chance they could revive him regardless of whether they did or not. Considering the danger a turned Larry could create he smashed his head.