If you want to think that, do so, I like to think that Lilly was a transsexual Jesus, we all can think what we want!.
Lilly literally says he stopped breathing. So at that moment he is dead. The fact that you see his lips moving at the end is open to interpretation. Maybe Lee managed to revive him, maybe not and that was him starting to turn.
Next time a friend ask me to kill someone, I'm going to tell him: Ok, but I restrain him and you kill him, I don't want blood in my new manicure.
It's kind of different killing someone or just being an accomplice, you know.
Did Jane make Clem kill Kenny? No, but she expected her to do so, same as Kenny did for Lee, that's why he didn't help Ben and Lee, he just wanted Lee to drop the kid.
She manipulated Clem into doing it. She manipulated the whole thing by faking AJ's death and breaking a man that already lost too much, attacking him back just to rile him up more and then at the end, asking Clem to help her, even though she could've stopped all of it by saying AJ was alive. For those players who killed Kenny because they didn't want him to kill Jane (and didn't know at that time that she was faking AJ death), yes, she made Clem/players kill Kenny through her actions. Kenny never did anything of the sort. He asks Lee to help him in the meat locker and he gives a subtle look for Lee to drop Ben. That's it. He didn't make up a devilish plan to manipulate Lee into doing those things.
Maybe I forget, but as far as I know, Jane doesn't say anything to Clem about shooting Kenny, she doesn't even ask for help as I recall.
Except at the end, when Kenny is about to kill her she says "Clem, help." sooooo yeah...
What? Lee didn't kill Larry. First of all, Larry was already dead, he stopped breathing.
If you want to think that, do so, I like to… more think that Lilly was a transsexual Jesus, we all can think what we want!.
Second, Lee helps Kenny. He grabs Lilly while Kenny "kills" Larry.
Next time a friend ask me to kill someone, I'm going to tell him: Ok, but I restrain him and you kill him, I don't want blood in my new manicure.
Kenny also didn't make Lee kill Ben.
Did Jane make Clem kill Kenny? No, but she expected her to do so, same as Kenny did for Lee, that's why he didn't help Ben and Lee, he just wanted Lee to drop the kid.
It's completely different from what Jane does to Clementine.
Maybe I forget, but as far as I know, Jane doesn't say anything to Clem about shooting Kenny, she doesn't even ask for help as I recall.
That's not revival. It's just a tightening muscle and the nervous system's reaction to what Lee's doing there. Your body still reacts very l… moreimitedly for some time after you die.
Telltale cleverly used that to create a question in the player's head.
Also, this is completely beside the point. The guy was dead and Kenny didn't think there's a chance they could revive him regardless of whether they did or not. Considering the danger a turned Larry could create he smashed his head.
Lilly literally says he stopped breathing. So at that moment he is dead. The fact that you see his lips moving at the end is open to interpretation. Maybe Lee managed to revive him, maybe not and that was him starting to turn.
When you turn you open your eyes, and your eyes are brighter, you don't move your mouth like you are breathing.
It's kind of different killing someone or just being an accomplice, you know.
If you say so, the responsibility is the same.
She manipulated Clem into doing it. She manipulated the whole thing by faking AJ's death and breaking a man that already lost too much, attacking him back just to rile him up more and then at the end, asking Clem to help her, even though she could've stopped all of it by saying AJ was alive. For those players who killed Kenny because they didn't want him to kill Jane (and didn't know at that time that she was faking AJ death), yes, she made Clem/players kill Kenny through her actions. Kenny never did anything of the sort. He asks Lee to help him in the meat locker and he gives a subtle look for Lee to drop Ben. That's it. He didn't make up a devilish plan to manipulate Lee into doing those things.
So Clem decision was because of what Jane wanted Clem to see?
I don't know, if that was true not many players would have choose Kenny.
Except at the end, when Kenny is about to kill her she says "Clem, help." sooooo yeah...
If you want to think that, do so, I like to think that Lilly was a transsexual Jesus, we all can think what we want!.
Lilly literall… morey says he stopped breathing. So at that moment he is dead. The fact that you see his lips moving at the end is open to interpretation. Maybe Lee managed to revive him, maybe not and that was him starting to turn.
Next time a friend ask me to kill someone, I'm going to tell him: Ok, but I restrain him and you kill him, I don't want blood in my new manicure.
It's kind of different killing someone or just being an accomplice, you know.
Did Jane make Clem kill Kenny? No, but she expected her to do so, same as Kenny did for Lee, that's why he didn't help Ben and Lee, he just wanted Lee to drop the kid.
She manipulated Clem into doing it. She manipulated the whole thing by faking AJ's death and breaking a man that already lost too much, attacking him back just to rile him up more and… [view original content]
Because she was trying to win Clementine. You cannot claim a person or win a person by force. Jane fans are so without any emotions and see people as just "things" that I started to think they can be psychopaths too.
To those getting heated and resorting to personal attacks, let's please not do that and stay civil. As for people posting reaction gifs about the state of the thread, let's please not do that too much either. Forum Guideline 2.2 says: If you think a certain topic is not worth discussing, don't try to destroy the ongoing discussion with arguments, off topic posts, ironic jokes, excessive use of pictures/gifs/videos, or anything else that will derail the thread. Just refrain from posting in that thread, or flag any posts if necessary.
Let's all play nicely and aim for more civil discussion.
You're defending your stance flawlessly, Iron, though I would recommend you to stop iterating your arguments after the first couple of rounds; the interlocutor will not give way even if you explain in a hundred different ways.
To those getting heated and resorting to personal attacks, let's please not do that and stay civil. As for people posting reaction gifs abou… moret the state of the thread, let's please not do that too much either. Forum Guideline 2.2 says: If you think a certain topic is not worth discussing, don't try to destroy the ongoing discussion with arguments, off topic posts, ironic jokes, excessive use of pictures/gifs/videos, or anything else that will derail the thread. Just refrain from posting in that thread, or flag any posts if necessary.
Let's all play nicely and aim for more civil discussion.
BTW I feel like I have to clarify I'm not a Jane hater. I didn't help Kenny smash Larry's head in the locker, I got angry when I had to tell him Clem was my family to convince him to come with me and I did shoot Kenny to see if Clem was good enough and planning to aim for the arm in order to just stop him from killing Jane instead of actually killing him. Turned out she wasn't and then I went back a few seconds later. I actually liked Jane although I knew she was selfish. What I didn't know until that moment where she said "you're gonna see what he really is" was the fact that she was a pure psychopath. At that moment I knew what she was planning and I have been neutral towards her after that and still tried to save her life without killing Kenny.
When you turn you open your eyes, and your eyes are brighter, you don't move your mouth like you are breathing.
Larry getting revived or not is the same as Christa being alive or not. We don't know if he was alive or not the second Kenny smashed his head, like we don't know if Christa managed to get away from the bandits or if she was killed on the spot. Like I said, it's open to interpretation.
If you say so, the responsibility is the same.
But the way you put it "Kenny made Lee kill Larry" makes no sense when he simply asked him to help him. And at that moment Larry was dead, it was matter of "is Lilly going to manage to revive him? Or is he going to turn and kill us all?". Kenny thought the safety of the whole group and his family were more important than the slim possibility of Larry surviving. Don't compare that to Jane faking a scenario to purposely break a person and giving Clem an ultimatum ("it's him or me" type of situation) just to have her all to herself in the end.
Lilly literally says he stopped breathing. So at that moment he is dead. The fact that you see his lips moving at the end is open to interpr… moreetation. Maybe Lee managed to revive him, maybe not and that was him starting to turn.
When you turn you open your eyes, and your eyes are brighter, you don't move your mouth like you are breathing.
It's kind of different killing someone or just being an accomplice, you know.
If you say so, the responsibility is the same.
She manipulated Clem into doing it. She manipulated the whole thing by faking AJ's death and breaking a man that already lost too much, attacking him back just to rile him up more and then at the end, asking Clem to help her, even though she could've stopped all of it by saying AJ was alive. For those players who killed Kenny because they didn't want him to kill Jane (and didn't know at that time that she was faking AJ death), yes, she made Clem/players kill K… [view original content]
If you treat Kenny well, he treats you well. If you're an asshole to him, he's an asshole to you. And regardless of your choices, he always sacrifices himself for Ben/Christa, saves Lee in the drugstore, takes the beating from Carver and urges Clem to stay in Wellington. Kenny is no saint, but he's not a horrible human being either, regardless of your choices.
Well, can you blame him? I mean, if you refuse to help him and his family when they needed, and if you're constantly disagreeing with him, you really think he would treat you well after that? It's been said multiple times, family means everything to him, the second you put them in danger or if you don't care about them at all and aren't willing to help them, don't expect him to do the same for you. If you don't choose to save a little boy that is being grabbed by walkers (at the farm), or if you don't defend him when a stranger is saying they need to kill him or throw him out just because he's covered in walker's blood, or if you don't give him food when he needs it, or even if you let a father kill his own son and live with it for the rest of his life, then your Lee is not a very good person in my book so you're really not in any position to judge Kenny when you literally did worse.
He let's lee die, he doesn't care about looking for Clem when Lee ask to (Of course if you didn't side with him THE WHOLE GAME), and he wanted first Ben to die.
Two can play at that game.
If you treat Kenny well, he treats you well. If you're an asshole to him, he's an assh… moreole to you. And regardless of your choices, he always sacrifices himself for Ben/Christa, saves Lee in the drugstore, takes the beating from Carver and urges Clem to stay in Wellington. Kenny is no saint, but he's not a horrible human being either, regardless of your choices.
The difference is that Kenny killed Larry for the safety of the group, I disagree with that salt-lick thing but Lily killed Doug/Carly out of cold blood
Agreed, should've worded that better. Kenny did not care if Lee died or not, he saw Lee almost getting killed by Andy St. John and decided to do nothing and we all know he had the chance to, we can prove as much when we consider on the other scenario where he easily frees Lee from Danny with that roud blade thingy that looks like a Game of Thrones arakh. How am I able to forgive a man who decided that my life wasn't worth saving anymore just because I did not help him kill a person who could still be alive? I understand Kenny's reasons, believe me I do, I just don't think they justify his action.
I don't act like Kenny did nothing good for me. Doing so would be foolish. You on the other hand act as if he never did something wrong or unjustified, and that's what I'm trying to get across here. Kenny was not in the right in this situation, leaving Lee to die (twice) just because of a disagreement and because of something that could've been is not something I can be ok with. Back to the point; while I do take Kenny's good deeds in account, he does not take my Lee's good deeds in account. How can he expect me to give him gratitue, when he himself doesn't reciprocate?
I also informed Kenny that I couldn't participate on the killing of a person who could still be alive and he didn't care. I understand why Kenny did what he did, but understanding is not approving. It doesn't matter how much Kenny wanted Larry's head smashed, it does not give him the right to treat my Lee as a waste of life. My Lee could've forgiven Kenny, hell I could've forgiven Kenny, had he just shown to understand our actions, but he refuses to, over and over and over. I repeat myself, why should I forgive someone that won't even try to consider the other point of view? He demands something of Lee but doesn't bother to reciprocate.
* "In your and my playthrough" Kenny didn't intend for Lee to die. He was simply frozen and couldn't get to help Lee and risk his life when … morehis family needed him the most, after what happened with Larry. I even got angry at him first but then I understood it. You're just trying to guess Kenny's inaction in the most pessimist way.
* You act like Kenny did nothing for you. Kenny took you and Clementine into his family's car. Kenny brought you to Macon. Kenny saved your life there too. Kenny then saved your life again by fixing the RV at the motel and taking you into it when they were attacked. Kenny even saved your walkie-talkie, Ben or Christa's lives so that you didn't have to. Kenny did even more things for you that I don't remember atm.
* Kenny especially states you couldn''t be even on the middle on that one to you to inform you that how important that decision was for him. You didn't have to side with Kenny in none of those other de… [view original content]
I appreciate you taking the time to write all this down, seriously, but this is something I am aware of. I can completely understand Kenny's reasons in every of his actions. My problem is that I don't think is reasons justify his actions, they're just not good enough. How can he put a disagreement ahead of a life? The life of a person who had been a good friend to him for the past three months. It's beyond me.
I could forgive Kenny like yall did but he just showed no signs of remorse, he kept acting as if he was absolutely right and refused to see Lee and Lilly's point of view. He can't demand that we see his side when he refuses to see ours.
The only thing I don't buy is the he being scared thing. Danny was with his back to him and he had a blade, it's not that big of a risk and he does it no trouble on the other version.
But Kenny did intend for Lee to die, or to at least let them kill eachother. If we're evaluating Kenny's personality and faults here, we are… more looking at what Kenny does and thinks. He did not know Lilly was going to come and save Lee, it coul've gone either way - Lee dying or not - and he wouldn't have cared. Not acting is an action, that's what I've been thaught in my schools Philosophy classes. Not acting defines you just as any other actions does.
While you are correct, I think you're ignoring a small detail. If you look at Kenny's face during that scene, you can see that he seems to be genuinely scared and somewhat confused, unsure of how to act. Of course, had you sided with Kenny in the meat locker, he would've brought himself to defend Lee, but I suppose due to him loosing a touch of trust in Lee after the disagreement in the Larry situation, he couldn't bring himself to get over that fear and defend someone he believed put his … [view original content]
The thing is Larry wasn't alive. Lily said he wasn't even breathing and she was obviously trying to revive him.
He never left Lee to die and I simply explained that. He just didn't care for Lee in a dire situation once. On the contrary no matter what choices you pick he saves your life at least twice. I'm not saying Kenny is a perfect and very light hearted man. I'm just saying he's a good emotional person with a tender heart that when his loved ones are in danger he doesn't care about anything else and that makes him look worse than he really is. That's also why he was completely broken after what happened to Sarita until the baby.
Again Larry wasn't alive. You and I just chose to try to revive him even if there's a very small chance and risking Clementine's and our lives there although I hated Larry's guts. Kenny just couldn't stand that idea. That's the type of person he is. He doesn't want to take small chances to save a person he doesn't like if there are huge risks to the lives of his loved ones. That's why he tried to save Ben and Christa although he hated especially Ben. He doesn't care about his own life but he would do anything to protect those that he loves. I think Rick is a lot worse than Kenny on that regard.
* Agreed, should've worded that better. Kenny did not care if Lee died or not, he saw Lee almost getting killed by Andy St. John and decided… more to do nothing and we all know he had the chance to, we can prove as much when we consider on the other scenario where he easily frees Lee from Danny with that roud blade thingy that looks like a Game of Thrones arakh. How am I able to forgive a man who decided that my life wasn't worth saving anymore just because I did not help him kill a person who could still be alive? I understand Kenny's reasons, believe me I do, I just don't think they justify his action.
* I don't act like Kenny did nothing good for me. Doing so would be foolish. You on the other hand act as if he never did something wrong or unjustified, and that's what I'm trying to get across here. Kenny was not in the right in this situation, leaving Lee to die (twice) just because of a disagreement and because of something that could've bee… [view original content]
I appreciate you taking the time to write all this down, seriously, but this is something I am aware of. I can completely understand Kenny's reasons in every of his actions. My problem is that I don't think is reasons justify his actions, they're just not good enough. How can he put a disagreement ahead of a life? The life of a person who had been a good friend to him for the past three months. It's beyond me. I could forgive Kenny like yall did but he just showed no signs of remorse, he kept acting as if he was absolutely right and refused to see Lee and Lilly's point of view. He can't demand that we see his side when he refuses to see ours.
Yeah, I can understand. All of the things you've said are completely true, and I suppose it's just a question of whether you can look past some of his truly awful traits and see him for the good he's trying to do, even if sometimes he's pushing it, like Arvo's treatment and as you pointed out, attempting to leave Lee to his death. In the end, it all comes down to one's own opinion and how they choose to play the games and view the character.
The only thing I don't buy is the he being scared thing. Danny was with his back to him and he had a blade, it's not that big of a risk and he does it no trouble on the other version.
I'm really only judging by the face he shows during the scene. Realistically, he probably shouldn't have been scared, but for some reason, the animators or whatever decided to glance over at Kenny, where he appears to be in a state of fear with an uncertain look. To me, that indicated that Kenny was indeed afraid, though the second time around, in episode 3's beginning, is less understandable and is a complete dick move, which I won't try to excuse.
And I think the reason he hadn't much trouble in the second version where Lee sides with him in the meat locker is, because with Lee having proven he'd always have his back, Kenny was able to get over his fright and defend him.
I appreciate you taking the time to write all this down, seriously, but this is something I am aware of. I can completely understand Kenny's… more reasons in every of his actions. My problem is that I don't think is reasons justify his actions, they're just not good enough. How can he put a disagreement ahead of a life? The life of a person who had been a good friend to him for the past three months. It's beyond me.
I could forgive Kenny like yall did but he just showed no signs of remorse, he kept acting as if he was absolutely right and refused to see Lee and Lilly's point of view. He can't demand that we see his side when he refuses to see ours.
The only thing I don't buy is the he being scared thing. Danny was with his back to him and he had a blade, it's not that big of a risk and he does it no trouble on the other version.
Two can play at that game.
If you treat Kenny well, he treats you well. If you're an asshole to him, he's an assh… moreole to you. And regardless of your choices, he always sacrifices himself for Ben/Christa, saves Lee in the drugstore, takes the beating from Carver and urges Clem to stay in Wellington. Kenny is no saint, but he's not a horrible human being either, regardless of your choices.
Lilly killed Carley for the safety of the group too, as she did with Ben but the Doug one was an accident.
Lilly was right, stealing the antibiotics of the whole group was being a traitor, was killing them by the inside, what if Clem gets sick and because of that they can't cure her?
Lilly thought Carley was the one stealing the supplies, it was a totally justified kill, it wasn't true, but don't say it wasn't for the safety of the group.
To those getting heated and resorting to personal attacks, let's please not do that and stay civil. As for people posting reaction gifs abou… moret the state of the thread, let's please not do that too much either. Forum Guideline 2.2 says: If you think a certain topic is not worth discussing, don't try to destroy the ongoing discussion with arguments, off topic posts, ironic jokes, excessive use of pictures/gifs/videos, or anything else that will derail the thread. Just refrain from posting in that thread, or flag any posts if necessary.
Let's all play nicely and aim for more civil discussion.
Two can play at that game.
If you treat Kenny well, he treats you well. If you're an asshole to him, he's an assh… moreole to you. And regardless of your choices, he always sacrifices himself for Ben/Christa, saves Lee in the drugstore, takes the beating from Carver and urges Clem to stay in Wellington. Kenny is no saint, but he's not a horrible human being either, regardless of your choices.
Well, he never actually attempts to kill Ben. Sure, he tried to attack him, but there's no scene where Kenny directly makes an attempt on Ben's life, other than encouraging Lee to drop him in the bell tower.
No, it really wasn't. Killing someone because of what you think they did is wrong--murder even. What Lilly did was either snap at an overzealous reprimanding or committed homicide while abusing her authority.
In the Carley scenario, Lilly was kinda handling things the wrong way and Carley was trying to stand up to her for someone who clearly wasn't in the mind to stand up for themselves. However, she got a little too bold for her own good and Lilly just snapped.
In the Doug scenario, Lilly just up and tried to execute Ben on the spot, essentially taking the lives of her group into her own hands. Doug saw this and, because he's a good guy, tried to get Ben out of the way, getting shot in the process. This is even worse in my eyes because not only was she about to up and kill someone on a hunch(correct or otherwise, they are a group), but deciding she should play executioner got someone who was innocent killed instead.
Lilly killed Carley for the safety of the group too, as she did with Ben but the Doug one was an accident.
Lilly was right, stealing the … moreantibiotics of the whole group was being a traitor, was killing them by the inside, what if Clem gets sick and because of that they can't cure her?
Lilly thought Carley was the one stealing the supplies, it was a totally justified kill, it wasn't true, but don't say it wasn't for the safety of the group.
Lilly's attack on Carley was a crime of passion, just as Lee's attack on the senator was before the events of the first season. Lilly did not calculate the killing; it was based off impulses.
Well, he never actually attempts to kill Ben. Sure, he tried to attack him, but there's no scene where Kenny directly makes an attempt on Ben's life, other than encouraging Lee to drop him in the bell tower.
Well, can you blame him? I mean, if you refuse to help him and his family when they needed, and if you're constantly disagreeing with him, y… moreou really think he would treat you well after that? It's been said multiple times, family means everything to him, the second you put them in danger or if you don't care about them at all and aren't willing to help them, don't expect him to do the same for you. If you don't choose to save a little boy that is being grabbed by walkers (at the farm), or if you don't defend him when a stranger is saying they need to kill him or throw him out just because he's covered in walker's blood, or if you don't give him food when he needs it, or even if you let a father kill his own son and live with it for the rest of his life, then your Lee is not a very good person in my book so you're really not in any position to judge Kenny when you literally did worse.
Everybody's actions have understandable reasons, Way. This should prompt us to sympathize with everybody, but it shouldn't lead us to justify the actions of the characters we like just because they are understandable.
Why is okay when Kenny is mad because of Sarita, Katjaa and Duck, but is wrong when Lilly is mad because she lost her father and she can't t… morerust anyone in the group?
The point isn't whether Kenny is truly right or wrong, as that lies solely on the player's perspective, but it's that while his behaviour is at times certainty "mad", there does lie beneath all that, reasons. He lost his family and that in no way excuses some of his actions, but it does explain why he is the way he is. Kenny's a man who's had everything he loved taken from him, blaming himself for Duck and Katjaa's deaths and by season 2, he's desperately trying, in anyway he can, to not let it happen again with Clem and AJ. Sure, I'm not denying he isn't a dick by the way he goes about doing it, but he did truly believe that what he was doing was for the best.
Now, Lilly, on the other hand, who I actually forgave, is slightly different than Kenny. You see, unlike him,… [view original content]
Well, I wouldn't say everyone, really. The likes of Randall certainty didn't have understandable reasons for being a child killing psychopath who enjoyed inflicting pain on others, but that's not to say he didn't have his reasons. They just weren't understandable, nor sympathetic from any normal person's perspective.
But yeah, I agree. We shouldn't justify the actions of someone just because we agree with their motive or because we like them. Both Kenny and Lilly have acted wrong and done terrible things, and I wouldn't dream of trying to defend such actions, but I can sympathise with them, due to either Lilly's mental state or Kenny's motivation, because after all, they're humans and are capable of making mistakes. No one's capable of being a saint and it's because they fuck up and do immoral things sometimes that I like the characters.
Everybody's actions have understandable reasons, Way. This should prompt us to sympathize with everybody, but it shouldn't lead us to justify the actions of the characters we like just because they are understandable.
Comments
Lilly literally says he stopped breathing. So at that moment he is dead. The fact that you see his lips moving at the end is open to interpretation. Maybe Lee managed to revive him, maybe not and that was him starting to turn.
It's kind of different killing someone or just being an accomplice, you know.
She manipulated Clem into doing it. She manipulated the whole thing by faking AJ's death and breaking a man that already lost too much, attacking him back just to rile him up more and then at the end, asking Clem to help her, even though she could've stopped all of it by saying AJ was alive. For those players who killed Kenny because they didn't want him to kill Jane (and didn't know at that time that she was faking AJ death), yes, she made Clem/players kill Kenny through her actions. Kenny never did anything of the sort. He asks Lee to help him in the meat locker and he gives a subtle look for Lee to drop Ben. That's it. He didn't make up a devilish plan to manipulate Lee into doing those things.
Except at the end, when Kenny is about to kill her she says "Clem, help." sooooo yeah...
Sure, the guy was dead, Carley/Doug were dead too so Lilly did nothing wrong.
When you turn you open your eyes, and your eyes are brighter, you don't move your mouth like you are breathing.
If you say so, the responsibility is the same.
So Clem decision was because of what Jane wanted Clem to see?
I don't know, if that was true not many players would have choose Kenny.
You are right, I didn't remember that.
As I said in a reply to another comment of yours - Let's not instigate petty attacks like that, please. Thanks.
To those getting heated and resorting to personal attacks, let's please not do that and stay civil. As for people posting reaction gifs about the state of the thread, let's please not do that too much either. Forum Guideline 2.2 says: If you think a certain topic is not worth discussing, don't try to destroy the ongoing discussion with arguments, off topic posts, ironic jokes, excessive use of pictures/gifs/videos, or anything else that will derail the thread. Just refrain from posting in that thread, or flag any posts if necessary.
Let's all play nicely and aim for more civil discussion.
what the hell is this word
i have literally never seen this word before
Thank you.
BTW I feel like I have to clarify I'm not a Jane hater. I didn't help Kenny smash Larry's head in the locker, I got angry when I had to tell him Clem was my family to convince him to come with me and I did shoot Kenny to see if Clem was good enough and planning to aim for the arm in order to just stop him from killing Jane instead of actually killing him. Turned out she wasn't and then I went back a few seconds later. I actually liked Jane although I knew she was selfish. What I didn't know until that moment where she said "you're gonna see what he really is" was the fact that she was a pure psychopath. At that moment I knew what she was planning and I have been neutral towards her after that and still tried to save her life without killing Kenny.
How did this thread get 153 responses?
Because of Kenny.
Larry getting revived or not is the same as Christa being alive or not. We don't know if he was alive or not the second Kenny smashed his head, like we don't know if Christa managed to get away from the bandits or if she was killed on the spot. Like I said, it's open to interpretation.
But the way you put it "Kenny made Lee kill Larry" makes no sense when he simply asked him to help him. And at that moment Larry was dead, it was matter of "is Lilly going to manage to revive him? Or is he going to turn and kill us all?". Kenny thought the safety of the whole group and his family were more important than the slim possibility of Larry surviving. Don't compare that to Jane faking a scenario to purposely break a person and giving Clem an ultimatum ("it's him or me" type of situation) just to have her all to herself in the end.
Two can play at that game.
If you treat Kenny well, he treats you well. If you're an asshole to him, he's an asshole to you. And regardless of your choices, he always sacrifices himself for Ben/Christa, saves Lee in the drugstore, takes the beating from Carver and urges Clem to stay in Wellington. Kenny is no saint, but he's not a horrible human being either, regardless of your choices.
Well, can you blame him? I mean, if you refuse to help him and his family when they needed, and if you're constantly disagreeing with him, you really think he would treat you well after that? It's been said multiple times, family means everything to him, the second you put them in danger or if you don't care about them at all and aren't willing to help them, don't expect him to do the same for you. If you don't choose to save a little boy that is being grabbed by walkers (at the farm), or if you don't defend him when a stranger is saying they need to kill him or throw him out just because he's covered in walker's blood, or if you don't give him food when he needs it, or even if you let a father kill his own son and live with it for the rest of his life, then your Lee is not a very good person in my book so you're really not in any position to judge Kenny when you literally did worse.
Nice one
The difference is that Kenny killed Larry for the safety of the group, I disagree with that salt-lick thing but Lily killed Doug/Carly out of cold blood
But Lily Kills Carly out of hatred, Kenny has never killed any of his allies
Agreed, should've worded that better. Kenny did not care if Lee died or not, he saw Lee almost getting killed by Andy St. John and decided to do nothing and we all know he had the chance to, we can prove as much when we consider on the other scenario where he easily frees Lee from Danny with that roud blade thingy that looks like a Game of Thrones arakh. How am I able to forgive a man who decided that my life wasn't worth saving anymore just because I did not help him kill a person who could still be alive? I understand Kenny's reasons, believe me I do, I just don't think they justify his action.
I don't act like Kenny did nothing good for me. Doing so would be foolish. You on the other hand act as if he never did something wrong or unjustified, and that's what I'm trying to get across here. Kenny was not in the right in this situation, leaving Lee to die (twice) just because of a disagreement and because of something that could've been is not something I can be ok with. Back to the point; while I do take Kenny's good deeds in account, he does not take my Lee's good deeds in account. How can he expect me to give him gratitue, when he himself doesn't reciprocate?
I also informed Kenny that I couldn't participate on the killing of a person who could still be alive and he didn't care. I understand why Kenny did what he did, but understanding is not approving. It doesn't matter how much Kenny wanted Larry's head smashed, it does not give him the right to treat my Lee as a waste of life. My Lee could've forgiven Kenny, hell I could've forgiven Kenny, had he just shown to understand our actions, but he refuses to, over and over and over. I repeat myself, why should I forgive someone that won't even try to consider the other point of view? He demands something of Lee but doesn't bother to reciprocate.
He attempted to kill Ben and Jane, and I assure you he would've succeeded had he had a handgun like Lilly did.
I appreciate you taking the time to write all this down, seriously, but this is something I am aware of. I can completely understand Kenny's reasons in every of his actions. My problem is that I don't think is reasons justify his actions, they're just not good enough. How can he put a disagreement ahead of a life? The life of a person who had been a good friend to him for the past three months. It's beyond me.
I could forgive Kenny like yall did but he just showed no signs of remorse, he kept acting as if he was absolutely right and refused to see Lee and Lilly's point of view. He can't demand that we see his side when he refuses to see ours.
The only thing I don't buy is the he being scared thing. Danny was with his back to him and he had a blade, it's not that big of a risk and he does it no trouble on the other version.
The thing is Larry wasn't alive. Lily said he wasn't even breathing and she was obviously trying to revive him.
He never left Lee to die and I simply explained that. He just didn't care for Lee in a dire situation once. On the contrary no matter what choices you pick he saves your life at least twice. I'm not saying Kenny is a perfect and very light hearted man. I'm just saying he's a good emotional person with a tender heart that when his loved ones are in danger he doesn't care about anything else and that makes him look worse than he really is. That's also why he was completely broken after what happened to Sarita until the baby.
Again Larry wasn't alive. You and I just chose to try to revive him even if there's a very small chance and risking Clementine's and our lives there although I hated Larry's guts. Kenny just couldn't stand that idea. That's the type of person he is. He doesn't want to take small chances to save a person he doesn't like if there are huge risks to the lives of his loved ones. That's why he tried to save Ben and Christa although he hated especially Ben. He doesn't care about his own life but he would do anything to protect those that he loves. I think Rick is a lot worse than Kenny on that regard.
Yeah, I can understand. All of the things you've said are completely true, and I suppose it's just a question of whether you can look past some of his truly awful traits and see him for the good he's trying to do, even if sometimes he's pushing it, like Arvo's treatment and as you pointed out, attempting to leave Lee to his death. In the end, it all comes down to one's own opinion and how they choose to play the games and view the character.
I'm really only judging by the face he shows during the scene. Realistically, he probably shouldn't have been scared, but for some reason, the animators or whatever decided to glance over at Kenny, where he appears to be in a state of fear with an uncertain look. To me, that indicated that Kenny was indeed afraid, though the second time around, in episode 3's beginning, is less understandable and is a complete dick move, which I won't try to excuse.
And I think the reason he hadn't much trouble in the second version where Lee sides with him in the meat locker is, because with Lee having proven he'd always have his back, Kenny was able to get over his fright and defend him.
But hey, that's just how I saw the scenes.
The first two are the same scene.
The one in Wellington is if you chose to.
The one with Carver, well, nice one, but if he'd let a little girl to be beat that way...
The last two are determinant by your relationship with him.
The scenes I showed are part of the game, no matter what you choose, is real Kenny, not the Kenny biased by my or your opinion.
Lilly killed Carley for the safety of the group too, as she did with Ben but the Doug one was an accident.
Lilly was right, stealing the antibiotics of the whole group was being a traitor, was killing them by the inside, what if Clem gets sick and because of that they can't cure her?
Lilly thought Carley was the one stealing the supplies, it was a totally justified kill, it wasn't true, but don't say it wasn't for the safety of the group.
The guy is saying "Telltale should say to the "stupid" people who sided with Jane fuck you and discard those endings"
And we have to be nice?
Because everyone loves a good bar fight, it doesn't matter where or why it started.
he always sacrifices himself for Ben/Christa
Well, he never actually attempts to kill Ben. Sure, he tried to attack him, but there's no scene where Kenny directly makes an attempt on Ben's life, other than encouraging Lee to drop him in the bell tower.
No, it really wasn't. Killing someone because of what you think they did is wrong--murder even. What Lilly did was either snap at an overzealous reprimanding or committed homicide while abusing her authority.
In the Carley scenario, Lilly was kinda handling things the wrong way and Carley was trying to stand up to her for someone who clearly wasn't in the mind to stand up for themselves. However, she got a little too bold for her own good and Lilly just snapped.
In the Doug scenario, Lilly just up and tried to execute Ben on the spot, essentially taking the lives of her group into her own hands. Doug saw this and, because he's a good guy, tried to get Ben out of the way, getting shot in the process. This is even worse in my eyes because not only was she about to up and kill someone on a hunch(correct or otherwise, they are a group), but deciding she should play executioner got someone who was innocent killed instead.
Technically, he tried to have Ben killed, but whatever.
Naw, I'm pretty sure it was primarily paranoia-fueled anger that caused her to do that.
Lilly's attack on Carley was a crime of passion, just as Lee's attack on the senator was before the events of the first season. Lilly did not calculate the killing; it was based off impulses.
He would have ripped the teen to pieces had he not been restrained by Vernon and Lee. The motion of his arms makes it clear.
And he tried to kill him as well. See the comment above.
A to the motherfucking men! Very well said @pinkytwist
Everybody's actions have understandable reasons, Way. This should prompt us to sympathize with everybody, but it shouldn't lead us to justify the actions of the characters we like just because they are understandable.
I guess. I always just take that as a heartbreaking "Let me at 'im! Let me at 'I'm!"
Could you explain the meaning of this?
A serious version of this
Well, I wouldn't say everyone, really. The likes of Randall certainty didn't have understandable reasons for being a child killing psychopath who enjoyed inflicting pain on others, but that's not to say he didn't have his reasons. They just weren't understandable, nor sympathetic from any normal person's perspective.
But yeah, I agree. We shouldn't justify the actions of someone just because we agree with their motive or because we like them. Both Kenny and Lilly have acted wrong and done terrible things, and I wouldn't dream of trying to defend such actions, but I can sympathise with them, due to either Lilly's mental state or Kenny's motivation, because after all, they're humans and are capable of making mistakes. No one's capable of being a saint and it's because they fuck up and do immoral things sometimes that I like the characters.