Believe me when I say that I will be the first in line condemning Jane for stealing from Arvo—but it is a fact that Bonnie, Mike and Arvo would not have left if Kenny had treated the latter humanely.
LOL, Arvo was literally only around because Jane had threatened and robbed him and he wanted revenge. Arvo would've had no reason to ambush… more the group and Kenny would've had no reason to beat him or take his prisoner if it weren't for Jane's foolish decisions.
Why everyone is alright with killing Larry because he COULD have been dangerous for the group, but everyone is crazy about Lilly killed Carley, after all at that moment we didn't know who was the traitor, and Doug/Carley acted very strangely.
Most people killed Larry because him reanimating and killing everyone was just as likely as him being fine. I have rarely seen people using any of your arguments, at least not outright naming them, though they probably played a part subconciously.
My understanding is that Edith allowed Clementine into the community because somebody had to take care of AJ, and Clem being a kid was an aspect that confirmed her stance.
I initially doubted they'd have let Arvo in, but his leg brace and harmless look could be enough for him to be allowed in as well!
They probably would've said their tearful goodbyes to Clementine and you just see everyone give Kenny the stink eye as the gate closes.
Also, wouldn't Arvo count as a minor or was it explicitly because Clementine had a baby?
Believe me when I say that I will be the first in line condemning Jane for stealing from Arvo
Then condemn her, stop making it seem like it was Kenny's fault that everything was fucked. The whole Russian situation and everything that came because of it can be pinpointed to Jane's mistreatment of Arvo. On top of that, Mike and Bonnie wouldn't have even had anything to steal if it weren't for Kenny, because everyone would've died in the Russian ambush and they wouldn't have been able to fix the car.
it is a fact that Bonnie, Mike and Arvo would not have left if Kenny had treated the latter humanely.
Not sure if I believe that. It was clear that they weren't too keen on being in a group with a baby, and Kenny says he knew they were working on something for a while. I think their betrayal was inevitable and that Kenny's behavior was just the excuse they needed to tell themselves. Also, Arvo had just distracted the whole group so that his gangster/junkie friends could ambush us, take all of our shit, and kill us or leave us for dead. He did not deserve the pity he was shown because he was scheming the whole time, and sure enough the first opportunity he gets he lashes out and hurts Clem.
Believe me when I say that I will be the first in line condemning Jane for stealing from Arvo—but it is a fact that Bonnie, Mike and Arvo would not have left if Kenny had treated the latter humanely.
Then condemn her, stop making it seem like it was Kenny's fault that everything was fucked.
First of all, is not Jane fault that Arvo and his group were raiders.
You don't treat a stranger in a zombie apocalypse giving him flowers.
Second, you can't blame Jane, she already left the group and Arvo didn't care about that, he cared way more about killing Clementine's group.
And third, if you think Jane is to blame because of what Arvo group did, then what Mark, Arvo and Bonnie did when they were escaping is not their fault, is Kenny's fault.
Believe me when I say that I will be the first in line condemning Jane for stealing from Arvo
Then condemn her, stop making it seem … morelike it was Kenny's fault that everything was fucked. The whole Russian situation and everything that came because of it can be pinpointed to Jane's mistreatment of Arvo. On top of that, Mike and Bonnie wouldn't have even had anything to steal if it weren't for Kenny, because everyone would've died in the Russian ambush and they wouldn't have been able to fix the car.
it is a fact that Bonnie, Mike and Arvo would not have left if Kenny had treated the latter humanely.
Not sure if I believe that. It was clear that they weren't too keen on being in a group with a baby, and Kenny says he knew they were working on something for a while. I think their betrayal was inevitable and that Kenny's behavior was just the excuse they needed to tell themselves. Also, Arvo had just distracted the whole… [view original content]
I already have, on multiple occasions. You can ask @IronWoodLover.
stop making it seem like it was Kenny's fault that everything was fucked. The whole Russian situation and everything that came because of it can be pinpointed to Jane's mistreatment of Arvo.
The conflict with the Russians is solely Jane's responsability along with Vitali and Buricko's, and there is no room for discussion; nobody else in our group, except determinantly Clementine, had anything to do with it.
However, I believe that Kenny also played a role in Mike and Bonnie's betrayal, since they would not have chosen to leave with the supplies if he had behaved in any other way; the way that I see it, there is also no room for discussion. I do understand what you are saying, though—if Jane had not stolen from Arvo, the scenario under which Kenny abused Arvo and caused Bonnie and Mike to leave would not have even existed.
On top of that, Mike and Bonnie wouldn't have even had anything to steal if it weren't for Kenny, because everyone would've died in the Russian ambush and they wouldn't have been able to fix the car.
Believe me when I say that I will be the first in line condemning Jane for stealing from Arvo
Then condemn her, stop making it seem … morelike it was Kenny's fault that everything was fucked. The whole Russian situation and everything that came because of it can be pinpointed to Jane's mistreatment of Arvo. On top of that, Mike and Bonnie wouldn't have even had anything to steal if it weren't for Kenny, because everyone would've died in the Russian ambush and they wouldn't have been able to fix the car.
it is a fact that Bonnie, Mike and Arvo would not have left if Kenny had treated the latter humanely.
Not sure if I believe that. It was clear that they weren't too keen on being in a group with a baby, and Kenny says he knew they were working on something for a while. I think their betrayal was inevitable and that Kenny's behavior was just the excuse they needed to tell themselves. Also, Arvo had just distracted the whole… [view original content]
First of all, is not Jane fault that Arvo and his group were raiders.
Arvo and his crew were not raiders—they were people who, by what we know, had never robbed others before, just like Jane had never robbed others before. Going by this paraphrased dialogue…
Arvo: What should we take?
Buricko: Fuck if I know! Anything they have.
…for which @DabigRG can confirm its legitimacy, their group had not even discussed what they were going to do once they found our group.
You don't treat a stranger in a zombie apocalypse giving him flowers.
You do not steal his only weapon and medicine, either, especially if they have a leg brace, have said that they do not want to hurt anyone, and have said that they will be on their way.
he cared way more about killing Clementine's group.
Arvo did not want Clementine's group dead. He was dragged along into it by Vitali and Buricko because he and his sister needed protection; and Natasha foolishly wanted retaliation on the people who robbed her brother.
Then condemn her, stop making it seem like it was Kenny's fault that everything was fucked.
First of all, is not Jane fault that Arv… moreo and his group were raiders.
You don't treat a stranger in a zombie apocalypse giving him flowers.
Second, you can't blame Jane, she already left the group and Arvo didn't care about that, he cared way more about killing Clementine's group.
And third, if you think Jane is to blame because of what Arvo group did, then what Mark, Arvo and Bonnie did when they were escaping is not their fault, is Kenny's fault.
You don't treat a stranger in a zombie apocalypse giving him flowers.
I never suggesting giving them flowers. All I'm saying is that you shouldn't rob and threaten strangers especially when you have no idea who/what you're dealing with and when your group isn't in a position to defend themselves.
Second, you can't blame Jane, she already left the group and Arvo didn't care about that, he cared way more about killing Clementine's group.
Uh, what? Jane is completely the reason that Arvo came after us, what is there to debate about that? Jane robs and threatens Arvo so he returns to do the same to them, Arvo is even confused when Jane is not with them.
And third, if you think Jane is to blame because of what Arvo group did, then what Mark, Arvo and Bonnie did when they were escaping is not their fault, is Kenny's fault.
Actually if it weren't for Jane then Kenny would have no reason to beat up some Russian kid in an unfinished house in the middle of nowhere, so *Mike, Arvo and Bonnie are Jane's fault if you really wanna go back that far. Even BetterToSleep agrees that all of these situations would not have happened if it weren't for Jane robbing Arvo.
Then condemn her, stop making it seem like it was Kenny's fault that everything was fucked.
First of all, is not Jane fault that Arv… moreo and his group were raiders.
You don't treat a stranger in a zombie apocalypse giving him flowers.
Second, you can't blame Jane, she already left the group and Arvo didn't care about that, he cared way more about killing Clementine's group.
And third, if you think Jane is to blame because of what Arvo group did, then what Mark, Arvo and Bonnie did when they were escaping is not their fault, is Kenny's fault.
Actually if it weren't for Jane then Kenny would have no reason to beat up some Russian kid in an unfinished house in the middle of nowhere
He didn't have a reason for doing so, anyway; it was uncalled for. If you are saying that Kenny would not have been in those circumstances if it weren't for Jane, then I coincide.
You don't treat a stranger in a zombie apocalypse giving him flowers.
I never suggesting giving them flowers. All I'm saying is tha… moret you shouldn't rob and threaten strangers especially when you have no idea who/what you're dealing with and when your group isn't in a position to defend themselves.
Second, you can't blame Jane, she already left the group and Arvo didn't care about that, he cared way more about killing Clementine's group.
Uh, what? Jane is completely the reason that Arvo came after us, what is there to debate about that? Jane robs and threatens Arvo so he returns to do the same to them, Arvo is even confused when Jane is not with them.
And third, if you think Jane is to blame because of what Arvo group did, then what Mark, Arvo and Bonnie did when they were escaping is not their fault, is Kenny's fault.
Actually if it weren't for Jane then Kenny would have no reason to beat up some Russian … [view original content]
She's technically right. Arvo's house is in North Carolina(for some reason), while the Woodchuck Rest Area was in Virginia. Had Kenny not alienated everyone, Jane's plan would've been the easier choice. On the other hand, had Jane not riled up Kenny, Wellington would've been just as far a trip.
All these arguments about what plan would have been better.
Season two takes place in Tennessee....Wellington is in Ohio.
Going back to Howes was the right plan.
It was clear that they weren't too keen on being in a group with a baby,
I think you got Mike and Jane mixed up there, pal. Triggers an interesting thought, but still mixed up.
and Kenny says he knew they were working on something for a while. I think their betrayal was inevitable and that Kenny's behavior was just the excuse they needed to tell themselves.
I kinda doubt that, all things considered. At the very least, we know Bonnie would've been cool with whatever as long as Luke was okay.
He did not deserve the pity he was shown because he was scheming the whole time, and sure enough the first opportunity he gets he lashes out and hurts Clem.
I think you guys give Arvo way too much credit: the plan after the shootout was just to take the group to his house and let them use some supplies as a peace offering. If he was truly planning something, then why didn't he make a break for it the first chance he got rather than when he got freaked out by the walkers showing up? Also, though he clearly had a grudge, actively hurting Clementine didn't seem to be on the agenda; it was only when she interfered with their leaving and determinately threatened them that he finally attacks.
Believe me when I say that I will be the first in line condemning Jane for stealing from Arvo
Then condemn her, stop making it seem … morelike it was Kenny's fault that everything was fucked. The whole Russian situation and everything that came because of it can be pinpointed to Jane's mistreatment of Arvo. On top of that, Mike and Bonnie wouldn't have even had anything to steal if it weren't for Kenny, because everyone would've died in the Russian ambush and they wouldn't have been able to fix the car.
it is a fact that Bonnie, Mike and Arvo would not have left if Kenny had treated the latter humanely.
Not sure if I believe that. It was clear that they weren't too keen on being in a group with a baby, and Kenny says he knew they were working on something for a while. I think their betrayal was inevitable and that Kenny's behavior was just the excuse they needed to tell themselves. Also, Arvo had just distracted the whole… [view original content]
Well Tennessee and NC do border each other...but they would never have gone thru Virginia to get to Ohio...they Would have gone back thru the Eastern tip of Tennessee and then into Kentucky..crossed the Ohio near Cincinnati..I 75 is their likely route. Making detours here and there to avoid high population areas.
She's technically right. Arvo's house is in North Carolina(for some reason), while the Woodchuck Rest Area was in Virginia. Had Kenny not al… moreienated everyone, Jane's plan would've been the easier choice. On the other hand, had Jane not riled up Kenny, Wellington would've been just as far a trip.
I think you got Mike and Jane mixed up there, pal.
Correct me if I'm wrong but Mike does complain about how many resources Rebecca and will the baby will need and voices his doubts about the whole situation. There's also a moment where he refuses to hold the baby, "nu uh don't look at me". Not exactly passionate about the kid.
At the very least, we know Bonnie would've been cool with whatever as long as Luke was okay.
Okay I'm glad you admit that Bonnie's loyalty is completely conditional upon other things that aren't related to Kenny at all.
I think you guys give Arvo way too much credit: the plan after the shootout was just to take the group to his house and let them use some supplies as a peace offering.
I think you're being naive and assuming that he had good intentions, which was not the case. He did not bring up the house and supplies to say sorry or as a peace offering, get real. He was literally about to be killed by Kenny and was desperately looking for a way to not be shot. Arvo also starts fucking with the group in subtle ways. He feigns not knowing English well at all in order to push Kenny despite us knowing damned well that he was fluent. He uses Mike offering the bottle as a chance to yell, whether he was actually this distraught or simply trying to draw walkers, I do not know for sure. And of course he sprints across the lake trying to kill/escape from the group. And you better not say that he was scared of the walkers because he was in the front and in the least danger from walkers.
If he was truly planning something, then why didn't he make a break for it the first chance he got rather than when he got freaked out by the walkers showing up?
Uh, what? He literally does this exact thing.
Also, though he clearly had a grudge, actively hurting Clementine didn't seem to be on the agenda; it was only when she interfered with their leaving and determinately threatened them that he finally attacks.
Then why does he give Clementine several evil "I will murder you" stares throughout episode 5 and why does he shoot Clementine even if she quietly gives up her gun to Mike?
It was clear that they weren't too keen on being in a group with a baby,
I think you got Mike and Jane mixed up there, pal. Triggers… more an interesting thought, but still mixed up.
and Kenny says he knew they were working on something for a while. I think their betrayal was inevitable and that Kenny's behavior was just the excuse they needed to tell themselves.
I kinda doubt that, all things considered. At the very least, we know Bonnie would've been cool with whatever as long as Luke was okay.
He did not deserve the pity he was shown because he was scheming the whole time, and sure enough the first opportunity he gets he lashes out and hurts Clem.
I think you guys give Arvo way too much credit: the plan after the shootout was just to take the group to his house and let them use some supplies as a peace offering. If he was truly planning something, then why didn't he make a break for it the first chance he got … [view original content]
Mike does complain about how many resources Rebecca and will the baby will need and voices his doubts about the whole situation.
When was this exactly?
As far as he was characterized, Mike seemed like the type of guy who would try hard getting things done within reason but get a little grumpy when there is a serious problem.
There's also a moment where he refuses to hold the baby, "nu uh don't look at me". Not exactly passionate about the kid.
Pretty sure that was just a lighthearted tease about having to deal with a crying baby, but eh.
Okay I'm glad you admit that Bonnie's loyalty is completely conditional upon other things that aren't related to Kenny at all.
Well, you seemed to be stressing that Kenny was distrustful of them early on, which includes the fact Luke was still alive when they conscripted Arvo.
I think you're being naive and assuming that he had good intentions, which was not the case. He did not bring up the house and supplies to say sorry or as a peace offering, get real. He was literally about to be killed by Kenny and was desperately looking for a way to not be shot.
Same thing basically. After all, his answer to why he would want to help them is "I not want to see more people dead!" Semantics, I know, but it counts for something.
Arvo also starts fucking with the group in subtle ways. He feigns not knowing English well at all in order to push Kenny despite us knowing damned well that he was fluent.
To be fair, that's technically a script writing issue, but his English wasn't that adept in Amid the Ruins either. I recall a few lines where he enunciates funnily and slips into Russian for a second before correcting himself. As for him intentionally pissin off Kenny, I doubt he's that stupid but it does sound hilarious.
He uses Mike offering the bottle as a chance to yell, whether he was actually this distraught or simply trying to draw walkers, I do not know for sure. And of course he sprints across the lake trying to kill/escape from the group. And you better not say that he was scared of the walkers because he was in the front and in the least danger from walkers.
That is an interesting point, but he still doesn't start speeding up until everyone points out the walkers. He doesn't even run when Kenny gets surprised by a walker in the woods...for some reason.
Then why does he give Clementine several evil "I will murder you" stares throughout episode 5 and why does he shoot Clementine even if she quietly gives up her gun to Mike?
Probably because he blames her for everything that's gone wrong and probably thinks she's either getting what she deserves or probably enjoying seeing him like that? My reply was simply pointing out that if he really wanted to kill her(or Kenny or Jane) that badly, why didn't he do it when Mike freed him and those three were either asleep? Even if Mike and maybe Bonnie tried to stop him, he had his apparently stashed away gun on hand. Why not force them to just do what he says while he gets his payback? He has them at their second most vulnerable literally in his house and yet he doesn't capitalize.
As for why he shoots her in that exact scenario, I have no idea. He does shake his head in nervous disagreement if you ask Mike to let Clementine come with them, suggesting that he just doesn't trust her but that's determinant. And even with that, why would he risk shooting at her in that scenario when a. Mike is in the way and therefore may get shot instead due to being a larger target and b. flat out missing will not only alert Kenny and Jane inside the house, but also give Clementine a chance to retake her gun and neutralize Mike? That was always the one(two) aspect of that scene that bugged me, since everything else made sense or was set up at some point.
I think you got Mike and Jane mixed up there, pal.
Correct me if I'm wrong but Mike does complain about how many resources Rebecca a… morend will the baby will need and voices his doubts about the whole situation. There's also a moment where he refuses to hold the baby, "nu uh don't look at me". Not exactly passionate about the kid.
At the very least, we know Bonnie would've been cool with whatever as long as Luke was okay.
Okay I'm glad you admit that Bonnie's loyalty is completely conditional upon other things that aren't related to Kenny at all.
I think you guys give Arvo way too much credit: the plan after the shootout was just to take the group to his house and let them use some supplies as a peace offering.
I think you're being naive and assuming that he had good intentions, which was not the case. He did not bring up the house and supplies to say sorry or as a peace offering, get real. He was literally… [view original content]
I believe it was mentioned somewhere that in one of the previous scripts Troy sexually assaulted or harassed Jane. That would make her choice of target more easily understood. Unfortunately since the developers went with a more PG version of Troy's original character but presumably left Jane's part the same, it appears as a case of "cruel and unusual punishment". She should have shot him in the knee. It would have served the same purpose.
Actually, Jane's decisions put the group in progressively dire situations.
Demoralizing the group by consistently suggestions to leave th… moree kids behind, shooting a guys dick off (who DOES that??), robbing and threatening Arvo which causes the group to be ambushed later, fooling around with the guy on walker duty thus causing the group to be blindsided by walkers during the birth, abandoning the group and leaving them to deal with the Arvo aftermath, saying fucked up shit about Kenny's family despite not being able to take the same from Rebecca, and of course her terrible stunt in which she abandoned an infant in a walker infested blizzard in order to upset Kenny and give her an excuse to murder him. All of these are completely antisocial and sociopathic decisions that had direct negative consequences that demoralized the group and led to its fracturing.
Not to say that Jane didn't also do some good stuff (because she definitely did), but… [view original content]
Bonnie and Mike did not want to look for Wellington and they knew Kenny wouldn't part with the pickup. The might have taken it and bailed out regardless.
Believe me when I say that I will be the first in line condemning Jane for stealing from Arvo—but it is a fact that Bonnie, Mike and Arvo would not have left if Kenny had treated the latter humanely.
An improved argument that I also support is that they would not have left if Kenny had treated Arvo humanely and Kenny had listened to what the rest of survivors had to say about where to go.
Bonnie and Mike did not want to look for Wellington and they knew Kenny wouldn't part with the pickup. The might have taken it and bailed out regardless.
And yeah exactly, it could've been a knee shot but it was purposely made to be a crotch shot. It is meant to say something about Jane, especially judging from everyone's faces.
I believe it was mentioned somewhere that in one of the previous scripts Troy sexually assaulted or harassed Jane. That would make her choic… moree of target more easily understood. Unfortunately since the developers went with a more PG version of Troy's original character but presumably left Jane's part the same, it appears as a case of "cruel and unusual punishment". She should have shot him in the knee. It would have served the same purpose.
What exactly what said or implied?
And yeah exactly, it could've been a knee shot but it was purposely made to be a crotch shot. It is meant to say something about Jane, especially judging from everyone's faces.
An improved argument that I also support is that they would not have left if Kenny had treated Arvo humanely and Kenny had listened to what the rest of survivors had to say about where to go.
When was this exactly? As far as he was characterized, Mike seemed like the type of guy who would try hard getting things done within reason but get a little grumpy when there is a serious problem.
In the museum before the raccoon shows up. And well he turned out to be pretty selfish and cowardly for stealing all of their supplies (not half, everything) and then running away and leaving Clementine to bleed out.
Pretty sure that was just a lighthearted tease about having to deal with a crying baby, but eh.
I would have a better time believing that if he didn't end up robbing the group and leaving the baby with literally no supplies or transportation.
Well, you seemed to be stressing that Kenny was distrustful of them early on, which includes the fact Luke was still alive when they conscripted Arvo.
I don't quite understand what you're saying.
Same thing basically. After all, his answer to why he would want to help them is "I not want to see more people dead!" Semantics, I know, but it counts for something.
Okay, he does say that. Do you actually believe that was his true motive, to not see more people dead? Especially considering that the only people left were the group that had killed his sister and friends.
To be fair, that's technically a script writing issue, but his English wasn't that adept in Amid the Ruins either. I recall a few lines where he enunciates funnily and slips into Russian for a second before correcting himself. As for him intentionally pissin off Kenny, I doubt he's that stupid but it does sound hilarious.
During the parts that I am talking about, Kenny and Clementine are asking him the most basic questions like "is this where the supplies are?" and "is this the place you are taking us?" and he acts like he can't understand a bit of it, you can tell he is faking. Especially when you look at how fluently and easily he was translating for his entire group during the standoff, even under pressure. Arvo was full of shit when he was pretending to not understand
That is an interesting point, but he still doesn't start speeding up until everyone points out the walkers. He doesn't even run when Kenny gets surprised by a walker in the woods...for some reason.
He didn't run until everyone was in the middle of the ice. He was hoping that either a) the group members didn't run after him and he gets away or b) they run after him but fall into the lake and die. And yeah he didn't run because there were still several other people standing around. If he had kicked the walker off of Kenny or done something I can't help but think Kenny would actually ease up on him a lot.
why didn't he do it when Mike freed him and those three were either asleep? Even if Mike and maybe Bonnie tried to stop him, he had his apparently stashed away gun on hand. Why not force them to just do what he says while he gets his payback? He has them at their second most vulnerable literally in his house and yet he doesn't capitalize.
Probably because he is a coward and knows that one of them, either Kenny or Jane or Clem would wake up and manage to subdue him easily. Also, did he really have a stashed gun on him? I highly doubt this, surely it was given to him by Mike or had been stashed in the house?
Mike does complain about how many resources Rebecca and will the baby will need and voices his doubts about the whole situation.
Whe… moren was this exactly?
As far as he was characterized, Mike seemed like the type of guy who would try hard getting things done within reason but get a little grumpy when there is a serious problem.
There's also a moment where he refuses to hold the baby, "nu uh don't look at me". Not exactly passionate about the kid.
Pretty sure that was just a lighthearted tease about having to deal with a crying baby, but eh.
Okay I'm glad you admit that Bonnie's loyalty is completely conditional upon other things that aren't related to Kenny at all.
Well, you seemed to be stressing that Kenny was distrustful of them early on, which includes the fact Luke was still alive when they conscripted Arvo.
I think you're being naive and assuming that he had good intentions, which was not the cas… [view original content]
Who gives a motherfucking damn what that guy did. Saying it's a joke and the size of this thread are a huge contradiction. This is more abou… moret convincing yourself, because you won't change people's minds beating a dead argument. Like Agent said, you are just as wrong for stooping to his level. I'd advise not keeping the same mentality when it comes to retaliation in the future.
Does that mean Kenny lost his nail file for Clem too? Kenny killed Troy? Hmmm....don't remember that. Jane talked about boats? Yeah don't remember that one either. I get that you mainly just copied his post, but the mere fact you did makes you look desperate for an argument and immature.
Dude, have you read the other's guy post? I've just used Ctr + C and Ctr + V, and changed the name Kenny with Jane.
https://telltale.com/community/discussion/110220/the-truth-about-the-season-2-and-kenny
In the museum before the raccoon shows up. And well he turned out to be pretty selfish and cowardly for stealing all of their supplies (not half, everything) and then running away and leaving Clementine to bleed out.
I would have a better time believing that if he didn't end up robbing the group and leaving the baby with literally no supplies or transportation.
I know what you're getting at, but I think I should note that what a character does now compared to what they said then doesn't always add up perfectly. Being concerned about the level of difficulty involved in raising a baby is a realistic thing to do and the same guy also insists on searching the area because he doesn't want to go back to Rebecca empty handed and suggests giving her the same coat he took issue with just to make sure she's comfortable. For as much focus as he probably should've gotten, Mike does have some traces of character and that character sums him up as a guy with a realist way of looking at things that doesn't always stick to what he says.
I don't quite understand what you're saying.
You suggested that they were always likely to betray the group and I threw out something that shows a personal stake in being in it: Bonnie's history and feelings with Luke. Mike also admits(in a scene I didn't know about until a few weeks ago) that he really wanted being a part of the group to work out, hence why he was trying so hard to help everyone out, including Arvo.
Okay, he does say that. Do you actually believe that was his true motive, to not see more people dead? Especially considering that the only people left were the group that had killed his sister and friends.
Yeah, I really do. Arvo is essentially an antivillain after all, so he's basically just a guy who was cast as an antagonist from our point of view even with the number of virtues he initially possessed.
My one problem with that line though is the very logic you point out: the only people who died in the fight was in his group and it's somewhat inferrible that they didn't know Rebecca had turned, so what he says doesn't make that much sense. Wouldn't it make more sense if someone from the Howe's Ski Cabin Group legitimately died in the fight? So yeah, while I believe he genuinely regretted that people got killed over what happened between him and Jane, I think it would've hit better if Clementine lost somebody to Buricko or Vitali.
During the parts that I am talking about, Kenny and Clementine are asking him the most basic questions like "is this where the supplies are?" and "is this the place you are taking us?" and he acts like he can't understand a bit of it, you can tell he is faking. Especially when you look at how fluently and easily he was translating for his entire group during the standoff, even under pressure. Arvo was full of shit when he was pretending to not understand
Oh yeah, he was definitely flaking a bit there. The first few times in particular makes sense because he was distracted being depressed about Natasha(when Kenny has to shove him down while the group rests for a bit and also when they arrive at the powerplant) and seemed to be refusing to talk to Clementine directly(notice that he just stares at her with a bit of grimace when she asks him herself and then seems to be talking to Kenny instead after having the gun pointed in his face).
He didn't run until everyone was in the middle of the ice. He was hoping that either a) the group members didn't run after him and he gets away or b) they run after him but fall into the lake and die. And yeah he didn't run because there were still several other people standing around. If he had kicked the walker off of Kenny or done something I can't help but think Kenny would actually ease up on him a lot.
That's also a good point. Most of these of things I recall fairly well because that episode in particular is easy to sit through and I specifically remember him speeding up after everyone else points out the walkers and then making a break for it when everyone stopped.
Now, if I was him, running while the walker has Kenny occupied would've been the best time to move because a. everybody else was either carrying something or worrying about Kenny, b. most of said people have consistently shown softer sides and thus would be unlikely to draw their gun on me, and c. the surrounding trees and the increasing distance between us would throw off their aim even if they did, but I think it's well established at this point that Arvo isn't as smart as his glasses would lead you to believe. Also, not to shoot down a pet the dog moment here, but kicking the walker would be a bit reckless considering he's handicapped and has his hands bound It still would've been a neat touch, though.
Probably because he is a coward and knows that one of them, either Kenny or Jane or Clem would wake up and manage to subdue him easily.
True enough. Shooting one would indeed just give the others a chance of attacking him in retaliation.
Also, did he really have a stashed gun on him? I highly doubt this, surely it was given to him by Mike or had been stashed in the house?
Yes. That rifle he pulls off the front seat of the truck to eventually shoot Clementine with wasn't one of the guns either group had, suggesting that he had it stashed away somewhere in the house and retrieved it after Mike untied him.
When was this exactly? As far as he was characterized, Mike seemed like the type of guy who would try hard getting things done within reason… more but get a little grumpy when there is a serious problem.
In the museum before the raccoon shows up. And well he turned out to be pretty selfish and cowardly for stealing all of their supplies (not half, everything) and then running away and leaving Clementine to bleed out.
Pretty sure that was just a lighthearted tease about having to deal with a crying baby, but eh.
I would have a better time believing that if he didn't end up robbing the group and leaving the baby with literally no supplies or transportation.
Well, you seemed to be stressing that Kenny was distrustful of them early on, which includes the fact Luke was still alive when they conscripted Arvo.
I don't quite understand what you're saying.
Same thing basically. After all, his answer to why he would… [view original content]
Unfortunately since the developers went with a more PG version of Troy's original character but presumably left Jane's part the same, it appears as a case of "cruel and unusual punishment".
Yeah, that's pretty much the reason I personally leave it out of my headcanon for the most part: it just doesn't fit very well with the way their characters are portrayed in the actual product. Stoic badass or not, having Jane just casually mention "I remember Troy telling me something like that when he was raping me Tuesday night." would be a hard sell, even for her.
She should have shot him in the knee. It would have served the same purpose.
But then we wouldn't have a surefire way of knowing that Jane is hardcore and edgy! ...And weird.
I believe it was mentioned somewhere that in one of the previous scripts Troy sexually assaulted or harassed Jane. That would make her choic… moree of target more easily understood. Unfortunately since the developers went with a more PG version of Troy's original character but presumably left Jane's part the same, it appears as a case of "cruel and unusual punishment". She should have shot him in the knee. It would have served the same purpose.
At the very least, I do know that Wellington was supposed to be near Michigan and Howe's was in Tennessee because why not. I'll check the wi… moreki for the other two places.
EDIT: Okay, apparently Arvo lives in North Carolina as well. ...What the fuck?
And the "Woodchuck Rest Area" is in Virginia.
Well Tennessee and NC do border each other...but they would never have gone thru Virginia to get to Ohio...they Would have gone back thru th… moree Eastern tip of Tennessee and then into Kentucky..crossed the Ohio near Cincinnati..I 75 is their likely route. Making detours here and there to avoid high population areas.
So pretty much...Kenny was an idiot who never listens. And Jane the know it all who goes all agro at the wrong time...You know this reminds me of my Guild in World of Warcraft back in the day. Kenny the tank who agros the whole room...and Jane the rogue who makes sure to drive it home just how fucking stupid that last pull was and never lets it go. I was the hunter who would yell at them both..."I can pull this entire room and feign death and live while you guys die horrible deaths!!" The Guild leaders says "LoL do it..I got bubble hearth." Oh Warcraft...I do not miss that drama.
Now, if I was him, running while the walker has Kenny occupied would've been the best time to move
This might've been true if Arvo didn't have problems with his legs. Can you imagine him hobbling off into the woods only to be caught seconds later? He was wise to bide his time a little longer until the frozen lake. Also, kicking a walker seems more realistic for him to do than sprinting through the woods and actually escaping.
Yes. That rifle he pulls off the front seat of the truck to eventually shoot Clementine with wasn't one of the guns either group had, suggesting that he had it stashed away somewhere in the house and retrieved it after Mike untied him.
Okay that actually scares the shit out of me and sort of pieces together the puzzle of what he was trying to do.
Step 1: Lead group halfway across frozen lake.
Step 2: Take off running, hopefully causing as many people as possible to fall into the water
Step 3: Find stashed gun
Step 4: Return and pick off the survivors still making their way across the ice.
He could have really caused some damage if Kenny didn't chase him down.
In the museum before the raccoon shows up. And well he turned out to be pretty selfish and cowardly for stealing all of their supplies (not … morehalf, everything) and then running away and leaving Clementine to bleed out.
I would have a better time believing that if he didn't end up robbing the group and leaving the baby with literally no supplies or transportation.
I know what you're getting at, but I think I should note that what a character does now compared to what they said then doesn't always add up perfectly. Being concerned about the level of difficulty involved in raising a baby is a realistic thing to do and the same guy also insists on searching the area because he doesn't want to go back to Rebecca empty handed and suggests giving her the same coat he took issue with just to make sure she's comfortable. For as much focus as he probably should've gotten, Mike does have some traces of character and that character sums him up a… [view original content]
So pretty much...Kenny was an idiot who never listens. And Jane the know it all who goes all agro at the wrong time...You know this reminds… more me of my Guild in World of Warcraft back in the day. Kenny the tank who agros the whole room...and Jane the rogue who makes sure to drive it home just how fucking stupid that last pull was and never lets it go. I was the hunter who would yell at them both..."I can pull this entire room and feign death and live while you guys die horrible deaths!!" The Guild leaders says "LoL do it..I got bubble hearth." Oh Warcraft...I do not miss that drama.
Comments
Believe me when I say that I will be the first in line condemning Jane for stealing from Arvo—but it is a fact that Bonnie, Mike and Arvo would not have left if Kenny had treated the latter humanely.
Why everyone is alright with killing Larry because he COULD have been dangerous for the group, but everyone is crazy about Lilly killed Carley, after all at that moment we didn't know who was the traitor, and Doug/Carley acted very strangely.
My understanding is that Edith allowed Clementine into the community because somebody had to take care of AJ, and Clem being a kid was an aspect that confirmed her stance.
I initially doubted they'd have let Arvo in, but his leg brace and harmless look could be enough for him to be allowed in as well!
Then condemn her, stop making it seem like it was Kenny's fault that everything was fucked. The whole Russian situation and everything that came because of it can be pinpointed to Jane's mistreatment of Arvo. On top of that, Mike and Bonnie wouldn't have even had anything to steal if it weren't for Kenny, because everyone would've died in the Russian ambush and they wouldn't have been able to fix the car.
Not sure if I believe that. It was clear that they weren't too keen on being in a group with a baby, and Kenny says he knew they were working on something for a while. I think their betrayal was inevitable and that Kenny's behavior was just the excuse they needed to tell themselves. Also, Arvo had just distracted the whole group so that his gangster/junkie friends could ambush us, take all of our shit, and kill us or leave us for dead. He did not deserve the pity he was shown because he was scheming the whole time, and sure enough the first opportunity he gets he lashes out and hurts Clem.
First of all, is not Jane fault that Arvo and his group were raiders.
You don't treat a stranger in a zombie apocalypse giving him flowers.
Second, you can't blame Jane, she already left the group and Arvo didn't care about that, he cared way more about killing Clementine's group.
And third, if you think Jane is to blame because of what Arvo group did, then what Mark, Arvo and Bonnie did when they were escaping is not their fault, is Kenny's fault.
I already have, on multiple occasions. You can ask @IronWoodLover.
The conflict with the Russians is solely Jane's responsability along with Vitali and Buricko's, and there is no room for discussion; nobody else in our group, except determinantly Clementine, had anything to do with it.
However, I believe that Kenny also played a role in Mike and Bonnie's betrayal, since they would not have chosen to leave with the supplies if he had behaved in any other way; the way that I see it, there is also no room for discussion. I do understand what you are saying, though—if Jane had not stolen from Arvo, the scenario under which Kenny abused Arvo and caused Bonnie and Mike to leave would not have even existed.
This doesn't connect to what we are discussing.
Arvo and his crew were not raiders—they were people who, by what we know, had never robbed others before, just like Jane had never robbed others before. Going by this paraphrased dialogue…
…for which @DabigRG can confirm its legitimacy, their group had not even discussed what they were going to do once they found our group.
You do not steal his only weapon and medicine, either, especially if they have a leg brace, have said that they do not want to hurt anyone, and have said that they will be on their way.
Arvo did not want Clementine's group dead. He was dragged along into it by Vitali and Buricko because he and his sister needed protection; and Natasha foolishly wanted retaliation on the people who robbed her brother.
I never suggesting giving them flowers. All I'm saying is that you shouldn't rob and threaten strangers especially when you have no idea who/what you're dealing with and when your group isn't in a position to defend themselves.
Uh, what? Jane is completely the reason that Arvo came after us, what is there to debate about that? Jane robs and threatens Arvo so he returns to do the same to them, Arvo is even confused when Jane is not with them.
Actually if it weren't for Jane then Kenny would have no reason to beat up some Russian kid in an unfinished house in the middle of nowhere, so *Mike, Arvo and Bonnie are Jane's fault if you really wanna go back that far. Even BetterToSleep agrees that all of these situations would not have happened if it weren't for Jane robbing Arvo.
He didn't have a reason for doing so, anyway; it was uncalled for. If you are saying that Kenny would not have been in those circumstances if it weren't for Jane, then I coincide.
She's technically right. Arvo's house is in North Carolina(for some reason), while the Woodchuck Rest Area was in Virginia. Had Kenny not alienated everyone, Jane's plan would've been the easier choice. On the other hand, had Jane not riled up Kenny, Wellington would've been just as far a trip.
Sure she is.
It totally isn't an old troll trick to copy someone elses post and reword it.
I think you got Mike and Jane mixed up there, pal. Triggers an interesting thought, but still mixed up.
I kinda doubt that, all things considered. At the very least, we know Bonnie would've been cool with whatever as long as Luke was okay.
I think you guys give Arvo way too much credit: the plan after the shootout was just to take the group to his house and let them use some supplies as a peace offering. If he was truly planning something, then why didn't he make a break for it the first chance he got rather than when he got freaked out by the walkers showing up? Also, though he clearly had a grudge, actively hurting Clementine didn't seem to be on the agenda; it was only when she interfered with their leaving and determinately threatened them that he finally attacks.
Well Tennessee and NC do border each other...but they would never have gone thru Virginia to get to Ohio...they Would have gone back thru the Eastern tip of Tennessee and then into Kentucky..crossed the Ohio near Cincinnati..I 75 is their likely route. Making detours here and there to avoid high population areas.
Would you like some fries, to go with all this /salt/?
NM
Correct me if I'm wrong but Mike does complain about how many resources Rebecca and will the baby will need and voices his doubts about the whole situation. There's also a moment where he refuses to hold the baby, "nu uh don't look at me". Not exactly passionate about the kid.
Okay I'm glad you admit that Bonnie's loyalty is completely conditional upon other things that aren't related to Kenny at all.
I think you're being naive and assuming that he had good intentions, which was not the case. He did not bring up the house and supplies to say sorry or as a peace offering, get real. He was literally about to be killed by Kenny and was desperately looking for a way to not be shot. Arvo also starts fucking with the group in subtle ways. He feigns not knowing English well at all in order to push Kenny despite us knowing damned well that he was fluent. He uses Mike offering the bottle as a chance to yell, whether he was actually this distraught or simply trying to draw walkers, I do not know for sure. And of course he sprints across the lake trying to kill/escape from the group. And you better not say that he was scared of the walkers because he was in the front and in the least danger from walkers.
Uh, what? He literally does this exact thing.
Then why does he give Clementine several evil "I will murder you" stares throughout episode 5 and why does he shoot Clementine even if she quietly gives up her gun to Mike?
When was this exactly?
As far as he was characterized, Mike seemed like the type of guy who would try hard getting things done within reason but get a little grumpy when there is a serious problem.
Pretty sure that was just a lighthearted tease about having to deal with a crying baby, but eh.
Well, you seemed to be stressing that Kenny was distrustful of them early on, which includes the fact Luke was still alive when they conscripted Arvo.
Same thing basically. After all, his answer to why he would want to help them is "I not want to see more people dead!" Semantics, I know, but it counts for something.
To be fair, that's technically a script writing issue, but his English wasn't that adept in Amid the Ruins either. I recall a few lines where he enunciates funnily and slips into Russian for a second before correcting himself. As for him intentionally pissin off Kenny, I doubt he's that stupid but it does sound hilarious.
That is an interesting point, but he still doesn't start speeding up until everyone points out the walkers. He doesn't even run when Kenny gets surprised by a walker in the woods...for some reason.
Probably because he blames her for everything that's gone wrong and probably thinks she's either getting what she deserves or probably enjoying seeing him like that? My reply was simply pointing out that if he really wanted to kill her(or Kenny or Jane) that badly, why didn't he do it when Mike freed him and those three were either asleep? Even if Mike and maybe Bonnie tried to stop him, he had his apparently stashed away gun on hand. Why not force them to just do what he says while he gets his payback? He has them at their second most vulnerable literally in his house and yet he doesn't capitalize.
As for why he shoots her in that exact scenario, I have no idea. He does shake his head in nervous disagreement if you ask Mike to let Clementine come with them, suggesting that he just doesn't trust her but that's determinant. And even with that, why would he risk shooting at her in that scenario when a. Mike is in the way and therefore may get shot instead due to being a larger target and b. flat out missing will not only alert Kenny and Jane inside the house, but also give Clementine a chance to retake her gun and neutralize Mike? That was always the one(two) aspect of that scene that bugged me, since everything else made sense or was set up at some point.
I believe it was mentioned somewhere that in one of the previous scripts Troy sexually assaulted or harassed Jane. That would make her choice of target more easily understood. Unfortunately since the developers went with a more PG version of Troy's original character but presumably left Jane's part the same, it appears as a case of "cruel and unusual punishment". She should have shot him in the knee. It would have served the same purpose.
Bonnie and Mike did not want to look for Wellington and they knew Kenny wouldn't part with the pickup. The might have taken it and bailed out regardless.
I'll see you later, Clementine.
An improved argument that I also support is that they would not have left if Kenny had treated Arvo humanely and Kenny had listened to what the rest of survivors had to say about where to go.
What exactly what said or implied?
And yeah exactly, it could've been a knee shot but it was purposely made to be a crotch shot. It is meant to say something about Jane, especially judging from everyone's faces.
I think there was a comment made by Troy's voice actor alluding to such intentions. I'm sure someone has the screenshot still.
I can agree with that. The Wellington plan was a risk they couldn't afford to make in my opinion.
In the museum before the raccoon shows up. And well he turned out to be pretty selfish and cowardly for stealing all of their supplies (not half, everything) and then running away and leaving Clementine to bleed out.
I would have a better time believing that if he didn't end up robbing the group and leaving the baby with literally no supplies or transportation.
I don't quite understand what you're saying.
Okay, he does say that. Do you actually believe that was his true motive, to not see more people dead? Especially considering that the only people left were the group that had killed his sister and friends.
During the parts that I am talking about, Kenny and Clementine are asking him the most basic questions like "is this where the supplies are?" and "is this the place you are taking us?" and he acts like he can't understand a bit of it, you can tell he is faking. Especially when you look at how fluently and easily he was translating for his entire group during the standoff, even under pressure. Arvo was full of shit when he was pretending to not understand
He didn't run until everyone was in the middle of the ice. He was hoping that either a) the group members didn't run after him and he gets away or b) they run after him but fall into the lake and die. And yeah he didn't run because there were still several other people standing around. If he had kicked the walker off of Kenny or done something I can't help but think Kenny would actually ease up on him a lot.
Probably because he is a coward and knows that one of them, either Kenny or Jane or Clem would wake up and manage to subdue him easily. Also, did he really have a stashed gun on him? I highly doubt this, surely it was given to him by Mike or had been stashed in the house?
Dude, have you read the other's guy post? I've just used Ctr + C and Ctr + V, and changed the name Kenny with Jane.
https://telltale.com/community/discussion/110220/the-truth-about-the-season-2-and-kenny
Does that mean Kenny lost his nail file for Clem too? Kenny killed Troy? Hmmm....don't remember that. Jane talked about boats? Yeah don't remember that one either. I get that you mainly just copied his post, but the mere fact you did makes you look desperate for an argument and immature.
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Agreed.
Calm down bad guy.
Maybe we should kiss, just to break the tension.
I know what you're getting at, but I think I should note that what a character does now compared to what they said then doesn't always add up perfectly. Being concerned about the level of difficulty involved in raising a baby is a realistic thing to do and the same guy also insists on searching the area because he doesn't want to go back to Rebecca empty handed and suggests giving her the same coat he took issue with just to make sure she's comfortable. For as much focus as he probably should've gotten, Mike does have some traces of character and that character sums him up as a guy with a realist way of looking at things that doesn't always stick to what he says.
You suggested that they were always likely to betray the group and I threw out something that shows a personal stake in being in it: Bonnie's history and feelings with Luke. Mike also admits(in a scene I didn't know about until a few weeks ago) that he really wanted being a part of the group to work out, hence why he was trying so hard to help everyone out, including Arvo.
Yeah, I really do. Arvo is essentially an antivillain after all, so he's basically just a guy who was cast as an antagonist from our point of view even with the number of virtues he initially possessed.
My one problem with that line though is the very logic you point out: the only people who died in the fight was in his group and it's somewhat inferrible that they didn't know Rebecca had turned, so what he says doesn't make that much sense. Wouldn't it make more sense if someone from the Howe's Ski Cabin Group legitimately died in the fight? So yeah, while I believe he genuinely regretted that people got killed over what happened between him and Jane, I think it would've hit better if Clementine lost somebody to Buricko or Vitali.
Oh yeah, he was definitely flaking a bit there. The first few times in particular makes sense because he was distracted being depressed about Natasha(when Kenny has to shove him down while the group rests for a bit and also when they arrive at the powerplant) and seemed to be refusing to talk to Clementine directly(notice that he just stares at her with a bit of grimace when she asks him herself and then seems to be talking to Kenny instead after having the gun pointed in his face).
That's also a good point. Most of these of things I recall fairly well because that episode in particular is easy to sit through and I specifically remember him speeding up after everyone else points out the walkers and then making a break for it when everyone stopped.
Also, not to shoot down a pet the dog moment here, but kicking the walker would be a bit reckless considering he's handicapped and has his hands bound It still would've been a neat touch, though.
Now, if I was him, running while the walker has Kenny occupied would've been the best time to move because a. everybody else was either carrying something or worrying about Kenny, b. most of said people have consistently shown softer sides and thus would be unlikely to draw their gun on me, and c. the surrounding trees and the increasing distance between us would throw off their aim even if they did, but I think it's well established at this point that Arvo isn't as smart as his glasses would lead you to believe.
True enough. Shooting one would indeed just give the others a chance of attacking him in retaliation.
Yes. That rifle he pulls off the front seat of the truck to eventually shoot Clementine with wasn't one of the guns either group had, suggesting that he had it stashed away somewhere in the house and retrieved it after Mike untied him.
Yeah, that's pretty much the reason I personally leave it out of my headcanon for the most part: it just doesn't fit very well with the way their characters are portrayed in the actual product. Stoic badass or not, having Jane just casually mention "I remember Troy telling me something like that when he was raping me Tuesday night." would be a hard sell, even for her.
But then we wouldn't have a surefire way of knowing that Jane is hardcore and edgy! ...And weird.
Where in the game does it say the Woodchuck rest area is in Virginia?
Yeah, it looks like it pretty much came down to "It's near Michigan, right? That means go north!"
Don't know. I get this off the wiki; maybe they have a source.
Yeah that source is their ass. Going to Virginia makes zero sense.
So pretty much...Kenny was an idiot who never listens. And Jane the know it all who goes all agro at the wrong time...You know this reminds me of my Guild in World of Warcraft back in the day. Kenny the tank who agros the whole room...and Jane the rogue who makes sure to drive it home just how fucking stupid that last pull was and never lets it go. I was the hunter who would yell at them both..."I can pull this entire room and feign death and live while you guys die horrible deaths!!" The Guild leaders says "LoL do it..I got bubble hearth." Oh Warcraft...I do not miss that drama.
This might've been true if Arvo didn't have problems with his legs. Can you imagine him hobbling off into the woods only to be caught seconds later? He was wise to bide his time a little longer until the frozen lake. Also, kicking a walker seems more realistic for him to do than sprinting through the woods and actually escaping.
Okay that actually scares the shit out of me and sort of pieces together the puzzle of what he was trying to do.
Step 1: Lead group halfway across frozen lake.
Step 2: Take off running, hopefully causing as many people as possible to fall into the water
Step 3: Find stashed gun
Step 4: Return and pick off the survivors still making their way across the ice.
He could have really caused some damage if Kenny didn't chase him down.
If Arvo's house was towards the middle of North Carolina, I can see them passing through it on the way up north.
Pretty much.
The reference is a little outside my jurisdiction, but sure.