The first two are entirely different situations and people, one of them someone whom Kenny hated.
Fair enough, but it is in the game, and that's what matters to illustrate my point.
The first one is, the last one always happens. Only Kenny's line changes from "Especially a good friend." to "Even if he is an asshole."
Like I said, all four but the one where Kenny calls Lee a friend are in the game indeterminantly. Both our comments don't represent the "real" Kenny. I'm not denying that Kenny has a dark side and anger issues, but he's not a bad guy by default, as my comment showed.
The first two are the same scene.
The one in Wellington is if you chose to.
The one with Carver, well, nice one, but if he'd let a lit… moretle girl to be beat that way...
The last two are determinant by your relationship with him.
The scenes I showed are part of the game, no matter what you choose, is real Kenny, not the Kenny biased by my or your opinion.
The first two are entirely different situations and people, one of them someone whom Kenny hated.
Fair enough, but it is in the game, and… more that's what matters to illustrate my point.
The first one is, the last one always happens. Only Kenny's line changes from "Especially a good friend." to "Even if he is an asshole."
Like I said, all four but the one where Kenny calls Lee a friend are in the game indeterminantly. Both our comments don't represent the "real" Kenny. I'm not denying that Kenny has a dark side and anger issues, but he's not a bad guy by default, as my comment showed.
Well, I wouldn't say everyone, really. The likes of Randall certainty didn't have understandable reasons for being a child killing psychopath who enjoyed inflicting pain on others, but that's not to say he didn't have his reasons. They just weren't understandable, nor sympathetic from any normal person's perspective.
For me, the fact that we can recognize somebody's motivation makes it an understandable motivation, but it's a discrepancy on semantics, more that anything. I won't deny that sadism isn't on sane people's plate.
But yeah, I agree. We shouldn't justify the actions of someone just because we agree with their motive or because we like them.
I'm glad that you think like this!
Both Kenny and Lilly have acted wrong and done terrible things, and I wouldn't dream of trying to defend such actions, but I can sympathise with them, due to either Lilly's mental state or Kenny's motivation, because after all, they're humans and are capable of making mistakes.
I'd like to note that mental state and motivation influence the impunity of characters over their immoral actions in different ways. Like we agreed above, understandable motivations do not free them from responsibility of their actions, but I would argue that mental state does free them, to a degree.
I don't know if you've played Telltale's Batman, so beware that the following example contains spoilers. Sergeant Renee Montoya killed the organized crime chieftain, Carmine Falcone, under the influence of a drug that deprives its hold of all impulse restraint; she wouldn't have done so if she didn't have the secret desire to do so, but she also wouldn't have done so if she hadn't been drugged.
I would say that a troubled mental state works in the same way the drug does. Lilly wouldn't have killed Carley if she didn't have the underlying urge to do so, but she also wouldn't have done so if she had not been in an impaired mental state. So, in a way, she has less responsability over her actions that she would have had if she had killed Carley in a sane mental state.
However, we should never fall on the error of believing that, because the person who did the action has less responsability, said action stopped being immoral. The killing of Carley continues to be immoral—whether Lilly is freed from the responsability or not is a different matter entirely.
No one's capable of being a saint and it's because they fuck up and do immoral things sometimes that I like the characters.
Flaws and vulnerability are the recipe to memorable characters!
Everybody's actions have understandable reasons
Well, I wouldn't say everyone, really. The likes of Randall certainty didn't have un… morederstandable reasons for being a child killing psychopath who enjoyed inflicting pain on others, but that's not to say he didn't have his reasons. They just weren't understandable, nor sympathetic from any normal person's perspective.
But yeah, I agree. We shouldn't justify the actions of someone just because we agree with their motive or because we like them. Both Kenny and Lilly have acted wrong and done terrible things, and I wouldn't dream of trying to defend such actions, but I can sympathise with them, due to either Lilly's mental state or Kenny's motivation, because after all, they're humans and are capable of making mistakes. No one's capable of being a saint and it's because they fuck up and do immoral things sometimes that I like the characters.
Carver's camp was overrun by walkers. It was even more risky for AJ to go back there if the walkers didn't leave the place. AJ would starve to death. But Jane didn't care about the baby. She wanted Clem as her new sister, she wanted to be her own boss at Carver's camp since she knew the place instead of doing what Kenny says and also she wanted to get out of the cold.
Also Bonnie only said " I think Rebecca mentioned there should be a baby formula there". If you add that risk of not having a baby formula there too on top of possible walkers, it was more risky to go there. And if everything went according to the plan they still had to find more formula in other places. Kenny only took the less risky and more permenant solution for the baby. Jane tried to take the best solution for her. Not for AJ or Clem.
These arguments about the plans.
Season 2 took place in Tennessee
Wellington is in Ohio
Going back to Howes was the only plan that was smart and workable.
They were nowhere close to Wellington...Carver's camp is in Tennessee....there is noway you get close to Wellington in the day since leaving Parker's Run Civil War Museum(Also in Tennessee).
They were very close to Wellington.
Carver's camp was overrun by walkers. It was even more risky for AJ to go back there if the walkers d… moreidn't leave the place. AJ would starve to death. But Jane didn't care about the baby. She wanted Clem as her new sister, she wanted to be her own boss at Carver's camp since she knew the place instead of doing what Kenny says and also she wanted to get out of the cold.
Also Bonnie only said " I think Rebecca mentioned there should be a baby formula there". If you add that risk of not having a baby formula there too on top of possible walkers, it was more risky to go there. And if everything went according to the plan they still had to find more formula in other places. Kenny only took the less risky and more permenant solution for the baby. Jane tried to take the best solution for her. Not for AJ or Clem.
They weren't at the museum at that time. They were at Russian group's place. And the place where Kenny and Jane fought was very close to Wellington. It was up in the north close to Michigan.
They were nowhere close to Wellington...Carver's camp is in Tennessee....there is noway you get close to Wellington in the day since leaving Parker's Run Civil War Museum(Also in Tennessee).
She's technically right. Arvo's house is in North Carolina(for some reason), while the Woodchuck Rest Area was in Virginia. Had Kenny not alienated everyone, Jane's plan would've been the easier choice. On the other hand, had Jane not riled up Kenny, Wellington would've been just as far a trip.
These arguments about the plans.
Season 2 took place in Tennessee
Wellington is in Ohio
Going back to Howes was the only plan that was smart and workable.
They weren't at the museum at that time. They were at Russian group's place. And the place where Kenny and Jane fought was very close to Wellington. It was up in the north close to Michigan.
I don't know. I don't really know anything about America's geography. But that's what they were talking about. It was snowing since they left the museum and then they traveled for 2 days to reach Arvo's place. Then Kenny drove the truck for hours to that stop where he said they were very close.
I will say Arvo's house being in NC is possible...but WoodChuck Rest...does it say in game it is in Virginia...because that would be the most ass backwards way to get to wellington.
I don't know. I don't really know anything about America's geography. But that's what they were talking about. It was snowing since they lef… moret the museum and then they traveled for 2 days to reach Arvo's place. Then Kenny drove the truck for hours to that stop where he said they were very close.
I will say Arvo's house being in NC is possible...but WoodChuck Rest...does it say in game it is in Virginia...because that would be the most ass backwards way to get to wellington.
Two can play at that game.
If you treat Kenny well, he treats you well. If you're an asshole to him, he's an assh… moreole to you. And regardless of your choices, he always sacrifices himself for Ben/Christa, saves Lee in the drugstore, takes the beating from Carver and urges Clem to stay in Wellington. Kenny is no saint, but he's not a horrible human being either, regardless of your choices.
Lilly killed Carley for the safety of the group too, as she did with Ben but the Doug one was an accident.
Lilly was right, stealing the … moreantibiotics of the whole group was being a traitor, was killing them by the inside, what if Clem gets sick and because of that they can't cure her?
Lilly thought Carley was the one stealing the supplies, it was a totally justified kill, it wasn't true, but don't say it wasn't for the safety of the group.
Both Kenny and Lilly have acted wrong and done terrible things, and I wouldn't dream of trying to defend such actions, but I can sympathise with them, due to either Lilly's mental state or Kenny's motivation
This is a little bit off topic, but you know what really sucks? Kenny and Lilly both had a lot of valid points. It's just that they both had headstrong, commandeering personalities that made them absolutely incompatible with each other.
They could have been a force to be reckoned with if they were able to cooperate with each other, but their personalities simply wouldn't let them do that. Neither one could live with the other being 'in charge'.
Everybody's actions have understandable reasons
Well, I wouldn't say everyone, really. The likes of Randall certainty didn't have un… morederstandable reasons for being a child killing psychopath who enjoyed inflicting pain on others, but that's not to say he didn't have his reasons. They just weren't understandable, nor sympathetic from any normal person's perspective.
But yeah, I agree. We shouldn't justify the actions of someone just because we agree with their motive or because we like them. Both Kenny and Lilly have acted wrong and done terrible things, and I wouldn't dream of trying to defend such actions, but I can sympathise with them, due to either Lilly's mental state or Kenny's motivation, because after all, they're humans and are capable of making mistakes. No one's capable of being a saint and it's because they fuck up and do immoral things sometimes that I like the characters.
In season 1 when Lee is at Hershel's Farm he asks Lee about his family in the barn, if you choose the "Ex-Wife" option he'll say "she now lives in Virginia"
I couldn't stand him myself--always yelling, always freaking out about everything, being a total PITA unless you adhered very strictly to his code of conduct--which was murky at best.
But that was before I figured out what The Kenny Rules are.
The biggest number of people in your group must live.
The smallest number of people must take whatever risk is involved for the situation.
Traditionally vulnerable people--children mostly but sometimes women as well--should be protected at any cost.
If being a jerk helps you save people, then you must be a jerk.
If somebody puts the group in danger, they must be made to understand what they did, even if that involves the maximum number of snarky reminders. Or even violence.
It's OK if everybody hates you. They can think what they want; they just have to stay alive.
I did a playthrough of S1 using those rules as a Kenny-management strategy, and ended up with Kenny's eternal respect for Lee. I continued through Season 2, and the same strategy worked. By the end, I didn't want to leave him: I finally understood he would do absolutely anything for AJ and Clem, even if it killed him.
That was an easy choice, while Jane for me was meh because I just didn't know enough about her. She lost her sister--but everyone in this game has lost at least somebody so that didn't make me empathize with her much. When she came back to the rest area with no AJ, I immediately assumed she'd left him in the snow or tossed him to a walker because she was either afraid of what might happen to him, or unwilling to bring a child up in that world with all its horrors.
If I'd got to know her better over the rest of the season, I might have made different assumptions. But as it was, I barely blamed Kenny for going after her. Maybe if we'd had an opportunity to get the Jane Rules sorted out, it would have been different.
Two can play at that game.
If you treat Kenny well, he treats you well. If you're an asshole to him, he's an assh… moreole to you. And regardless of your choices, he always sacrifices himself for Ben/Christa, saves Lee in the drugstore, takes the beating from Carver and urges Clem to stay in Wellington. Kenny is no saint, but he's not a horrible human being either, regardless of your choices.
The only ending I felt was wrong was the alone ending. Just the idea that Clementine (an 11 year-old) taking care of an infant, walking through a horde of zombies with said infant in hand seems way too - for a lack of better words - edgy. Clementine showed how smart she is, and capable, so it just didn't make sense for her to do something like that. I found the other endings believable, though.
Her endings at Howe's are completely disappointing and feel out of place
I'm going to disagree with you there
I actually like the… more Jane endings
Well, the one where you let the family in, at least. The one where you turn them away... not so much
Her endings at Howe's are completely disappointing and feel out of place
I'm going to disagree with you there
I actually like the… more Jane endings
Well, the one where you let the family in, at least. The one where you turn them away... not so much
Jane Rules:
But infants in harm's way just to prove a dumb point.
Never shut up about your sister.
Leave everyone and anyone the first chance they show they pull you down.
Give a memento to the one person you like in said shitty group and hope they don't think you're a bad person, even though you are.
Constantly poke the bear.
There ya go!
(To any Jane fans, please don't get your panties in a bunch, it's a joke....kinda....not really. Anyways, learn to let some things slide.)
I couldn't stand him myself--always yelling, always freaking out about everything, being a total PITA unless you adhered very strictly to hi… mores code of conduct--which was murky at best.
But that was before I figured out what The Kenny Rules are.
* The biggest number of people in your group must live.
* The smallest number of people must take whatever risk is involved for the situation.
* Traditionally vulnerable people--children mostly but sometimes women as well--should be protected at any cost.
* If being a jerk helps you save people, then you must be a jerk.
* If somebody puts the group in danger, they must be made to understand what they did, even if that involves the maximum number of snarky reminders. Or even violence.
* It's OK if everybody hates you. They can think what they want; they just have to stay alive.
I did a playthrough of S1 using those rules as a Kenny-management strategy, and ended up with Kenny's eternal r… [view original content]
Jane Rules:
But infants in harm's way just to prove a dumb point.
Never shut up about your sister.
Leave everyone and anyone the first ch… moreance they show they pull you down.
Give a memento to the one person you like in said shitty group and hope they don't think you're a bad person, even though you are.
Constantly poke the bear.
There ya go!
(To any Jane fans, please don't get your panties in a bunch, it's a joke....kinda....not really. Anyways, learn to let some things slide.)
I will address the original post properly today or tomorrow, but after analyzing it I was left with the impression that @Permaximum is reaso… morening under a bias that prevents them from consider the immoral and impractical actions done by Kenny, and is also narrow-minded regarding Jane, and has a skewed perspective on how sane people would react to being informed of the death of their child, and also suggests that players who didn't like Kenny and didn't dislike Jane aren't "careful players."
I ask nobody other than Daze to reply, because I will not respond.
Throughout the entirety of Season One, I always talked to Kenny in a calm, collected and friendly manner, the only times I did something he didn't like were choosing not to side with him or Lilly, trying to save Larry, trying to shoot the walkers that were attacking Beatrice and saving Ben whilst also giving Duck a candy bar, water and animal crackers, giving him and Duck as well as attempting to give Katjaa rations, Agreeing with him on every other topic that didn't include taking entirely different sides and being truthful and kind to his entire family in addition to all the non-determinant things that Lee does for him and his family.
They both killed a group member entirely because of assumptions, not even giving the people they've survived with a chance. They're both on the same level of low in my opinion.
I'm not sure why people try to make it seem as though Jane managed to force Clementine to shoot Kenny whilst she was in the middle of being stabbed by him and pinned to the ground... Clementine shoots Kenny out of her own choice, don't blame one character's decision on another. That's like saying Kenny forced Clementine to shoot him.
Despite your choices, Kenny was still a familiar face to Clem and even if you choose to kill him, she is heartbroken by it. So even if you w… moreant to believe Clem hated him (like you seem to hate), she is not a monster and Jane making her kill him is the most fucked up thing I have ever seen any character pull off.
Honestly, it's people like you that give fans of Kenny a bad name, attacking the entire fan-base of a fictional character, calling them emotionless and possible psychopaths? Really? Leave the irrational assumptions at the door and please try to be respectful of your fellow human beings.
Because she was trying to win Clementine. You cannot claim a person or win a person by force. Jane fans are so without any emotions and see people as just "things" that I started to think they can be psychopaths too.
Kenny was far from the only one who saved the group from terrible events:
Episode Two: I believe it was a group effort involving Walter, Nick, Carlos etc. to fight off the invading walkers outside the Ski Lodge
Episode Three: It was almost entirely Clementine, with some help from Luke Kenny, Jane and Bonnie as well to escape from Howe's, technically Mike as well, also it was Clementine that saved the whole group from Carver with aid from Luke afterwards and it was Jane who saved the group from Troy.
Episode Four: It was Jane that saved Rebecca, an unborn AJ and Clementine from the walker horde, it was also Jane and Clementine who saved Luke and determinantly Sarah, it was also Jane who opened up Observation Deck - which the group uses as their temporary base and Kenny had determinant help from Mike to fight off the walkers.
Episode Five: Luke and Clementine fought the Russian group with Kenny but it was Jane who saved Kenny and possibly the rest of the group from being killed by Vitali.
Honestly, I don't recall Kenny doing that much for the group in Season Two, at least in terms of actions that benefited the group or multiple members of it.
The radio thing was definitely heroic of him but in terms of who caused him pain, don't blame the group, blame the actual villain - Carver, the whole reason Season Two happened this way. Yeah, I'll also give him props for helping Rebecca give birth to AJ, but was it really necessary to keep him in the cold with him instead of sitting by the fire to at least keep him warm? At least he does it determinantly. I wouldn't call Kenny constantly bashing the head of a walker 'saving' the group, considering all everyone had to do was run. Again, it was Jane who actually saved the group in the end, Kenny and everyone else played their mostly unseen parts but Jane was the whole reason Vitali didn't kill Kenny right then and there. He isn't the only one who secures the area and takes watches ya know - I don't recall Clementine seeing anyone else fall asleep.
They complain because they don't want to find Wellington - which was only a rumor at that point in time, they wanted to go somewhere else instead - either Howe's which they knew had baby formula or a different area entirely. Being a dictator doesn't make him a good guy, even if he's right in the end he's completely disregarding the opinions of the majority of his group, not even taking them into consideration. Except the whole scenario with Arvo was worsened by Kenny's beatings, I do still dislike Arvo for shooting Clementine like that out of a misunderstanding about Natasha's death but that doesn't excuse Kenny's prior actions of bullying and tormenting the guy out of resentment for Rebecca's death. I also dislike how Bonnie, Mike and Arvo tried to take everything with them though, that was purely selfish of them.
Pursuing the long-term best interest of AJ, Clementine and the group by going after Wellington while others talk about going back, Carver's camp, Texas etc. because it's cold in the north. Telling Clementine she did the right decision and she's right no matter what she does. Eventually he's proven right again by finding Wellington and sacrificing himself for AJ and Clementine just like he sacrificed himself for Ben or Christa again in the first season.
They had good reason to disagree with finding Wellington, remember, at the time it was only a rumor, no one actually knew if it existed and you can't blame people for not wanting to take a risk of trying to find a place that might not exist when your group is low on supplies, is caring for a baby and has no idea where the place they're looking for actually is. He doesn't always agree with Clementine's decisions, considering he shoots Walter regardless if Clementine tries to stop him, can do the same with Alvin, gets angry at her whenever she disagrees with him and disregards her own opinion of where she thinks they should go, not to mention blame her for the death of Sarita, regardless of what happened. Honestly, I wouldn't call putting Ben out of his misery was a 'sacrifice', sure it had noble intent but he literally could've just shot Ben and left with Lee, it was stupid to close the gate and leave himself in the alleyway. As for Christa, yeah, that is definitely a point for Kenny! In terms of Wellington, however? How does he sacrifice himself for Clementine and AJ at that point? He does ask Edith if they could take Clementine and AJ into consideration but at the end it's Clementine's choice and it was entirely up to Wellington's community to decide whether they'll accept children inside.
Those must've been very subtle hints then, I do like Kenny, even if I do often criticize what he does (it just proves he's a rather compelling character for me) but you might be right in that aspect of the game's bias towards Kenny. In terms of Jane's perspective on Kenny, I honestly think that there were far more hints that she felt sympathy for him - asking Clementine to look after him even after he blamed the ambush on her and even telling Clementine to offer Kenny the alcohol saying "He needs it more than anybody", it takes time for her to actually show disdain towards Kenny - the final straw is when he beats Arvo to near death in the assumption that he's lying. Also, I'm not sure why people think that Jane tried to replace Jaime with Clementine, if anything, Jane liked Clementine because she was a survivor and didn't want to give up like her sister did and I highly doubt being around Clementine would ease her pain over Jaime's death considering that she still felt emotional when Rebecca argued with her and she told her story, heck, feeling guilt about Jaime's death just makes Jane more human in comparison to what you seem to be making her out to be - inhuman or psychopathic.
I agree with the ending though, what Jane did at the end of Episode 5 was rather stupid, even if the intention was understandable. The thing about the situation that doesn't make Kenny any better is that he attacked Jane without wanting to hear an explanation and as soon as she's defenseless too, Jane defenitely is more to blame for the situation but Kenny isn't out of the equation for proving Jane's point at just how dangerous he can be.
Also, we have seen Jane was just talk about surviving. She's cunning and she brought knife to ensure that she could kill Kenny and she was so confident about killing him that she wanted Clementine to stay out of it no matter what happens.
Well, she's a survivor, they all are, they eventually talk about different ways to survive throughout both seasons - heck, most of the lessons Clementine is taught in both Seasons are about survival. Didn't Jane always have that knife? At least from the end of Episode 3?
You can't expect her not to exploit his weaknesses when he attacks her do you? It would be rather unrealistic if a survivalist doesn't exploit the attacker's weakness in an attempt to survive. Jane was dying, what else could she do but say "Clem". In the end her point is emphasized - Kenny is dangerous enough to kill a group member, although I think Clementine already knew that beforehand.
Honestly, I hope all endings are taken into account, if they even disregard a single ending, I don't think I'm going to trust them whenever they say "Choices will" anything. I might have defended them on the choice subject for every game they put out but I'm not going to keep defending them if they disregard what they themselves call 'important' decisions. If they did create the Jane endings to make the player feel like the Kenny ending is the right one, that only means they're biased and I think that's the worst thing a choice-based game can be. Personally, I value the opinion of the whole group over a single individual, which is why, overall, I disliked Kenny's attitude in both Seasons. Kenny is still a good character of course but he's very flawed, just like most characters - which makes sense in a post-apocalyptic world.
P.S. Looks like people were right about these debates starting up right before Season Three's release!
Throughout the entirety of Season One, I always talked to Kenny in a calm, collected and friendly manner, the only times I did something he … moredidn't like were choosing not to side with him or Lilly, trying to save Larry, trying to shoot the walkers that were attacking Beatrice and saving Ben whilst also giving Duck a candy bar, water and animal crackers, giving him and Duck as well as attempting to give Katjaa rations, Agreeing with him on every other topic that didn't include taking entirely different sides and being truthful and kind to his entire family in addition to all the non-determinant things that Lee does for him and his family.
not even giving the people they've survived with a chance
Lilly could have given the group (well Ben) a chance to admit what he did and as a group settle down and talk without her doing what she did. Difference is, there "was" time for that but there was no time in the meat locker to give Larry that chance. Please no arguments.
They both killed a group member entirely because of assumptions, not even giving the people they've survived with a chance. They're both on the same level of low in my opinion.
They both killed a group member entirely because of assumptions, not even giving the people they've survived with a chance. They're both on the same level of low in my opinion.
'If you treat Kenny well, he treats you well. If you're an asshole to him, he's an asshole to you'.
Not really.
If you try to revive Larry, Kenny will leave you to die at the beginning of episode 3. That's not really being an asshole to Kenny, and he literally is fine with you dying if you do it, leaving Clementine alone.
That's not healthy friendship. That's not selflessness. It's being petty as hell.
Same in the end of episode 4. If you aren't always lovely to Kenny, he won't be immediately up for saving Clementine, because he doesn't like Lee. He will be fine with leaving a little girl in the hands of her abductor because he doesn't like her parent much.
It's fine acknowledging that he isn't always awful, but you can't make generalised statements about how Kenny always treats you fairly when there are so many counterexamples.
Two can play at that game.
If you treat Kenny well, he treats you well. If you're an asshole to him, he's an assh… moreole to you. And regardless of your choices, he always sacrifices himself for Ben/Christa, saves Lee in the drugstore, takes the beating from Carver and urges Clem to stay in Wellington. Kenny is no saint, but he's not a horrible human being either, regardless of your choices.
Yes, Kenny acts like a dickhead to you at some points in the game if you sided with Lilly, but to say he will 'let you die' for the rest of the game is very irrational.
Literally at the beginning of the next episode he leaves you being crushed by zombies under a door if you didn't help him kill Larry.
Psychological manipulation is a type of social influence that aims to change the behavior or perception of others through abusive, deceptive, or underhanded tactics.
Which is exactly what Jane does by faking a scenario to intentionally break someone who is obviously already struggling, to make it seem to Clem that that's all what he is now. The thing is, Jane gave Clem an ultimatum. It was either her or him. Even though she's in a bad situation and about to get killed by Kenny, she chooses to still not reveal she was lying by saying AJ was alive in the car and end the fight. Why? Because this was part of her plan and she wasn't ready to give it up because that would just fuck up her chances with Clem even more, specially if Kenny lived. She wanted Kenny gone, one way or another. She wanted that even before they got into that car. She obviously begins her plan to break him by mentioning his family and how it was his fault they all died. She was already setting the wheels on motion. Bring Kenny to the edge and make him hate her some more, so it would be a surefire way to make him jump once she faked AJ's death. She didn't manage to kill him herself in the end (even though she obviously tried and had no intentions to fight defensively), so she wanted Clem to do it in the end. She says "Clem, help" even though she told her to stay out of it multiple times before and during the fight. At that point, obviously Clem and the player doesn't know that AJ was alive and doesn't know if it was an accident or if she did really get rid of him. So in that moment, Clem has to decide if she wants to save Jane or not. I've seen a lot of videos of people playing the ending and those who go with Jane, get manipulated into believing there was no hope for Kenny and that he was lost (when if you go with his endings, you can clearly see he was not) and that Jane just probably did a mistake and didn't deserve to die. But despite of what the players might think, and if you want to believe your Clem didn't like Kenny, it was still hard for her to kill him because she is heartbroken by it, and Jane makes her go through that just because she wanted Kenny out of the picture so she could have Clem all to herself. That's what we're discussing. The fact that Jane is so manipulative and selfish (if you decide to leave her, she admits "I can't do this alone, is that what you want to hear?").
I'm not sure why people try to make it seem as though Jane managed to force Clementine to shoot Kenny whilst she was in the middle of being … morestabbed by him and pinned to the ground... Clementine shoots Kenny out of her own choice, don't blame one character's decision on another. That's like saying Kenny forced Clementine to shoot him.
Comments
These arguments about the plans.
Season 2 took place in Tennessee
Wellington is in Ohio
Going back to Howes was the only plan that was smart and workable.
The first two are entirely different situations and people, one of them someone whom Kenny hated.
Fair enough, but it is in the game, and that's what matters to illustrate my point.
The first one is, the last one always happens. Only Kenny's line changes from "Especially a good friend." to "Even if he is an asshole."
Like I said, all four but the one where Kenny calls Lee a friend are in the game indeterminantly. Both our comments don't represent the "real" Kenny. I'm not denying that Kenny has a dark side and anger issues, but he's not a bad guy by default, as my comment showed.
Thanks, fixed it.
Neither is Lilly if you side with her always, how convenient.
I didn't even mention Lilly.
For me, the fact that we can recognize somebody's motivation makes it an understandable motivation, but it's a discrepancy on semantics, more that anything. I won't deny that sadism isn't on sane people's plate.
I'm glad that you think like this!
I'd like to note that mental state and motivation influence the impunity of characters over their immoral actions in different ways. Like we agreed above, understandable motivations do not free them from responsibility of their actions, but I would argue that mental state does free them, to a degree.
I don't know if you've played Telltale's Batman, so beware that the following example contains spoilers. Sergeant Renee Montoya killed the organized crime chieftain, Carmine Falcone, under the influence of a drug that deprives its hold of all impulse restraint; she wouldn't have done so if she didn't have the secret desire to do so, but she also wouldn't have done so if she hadn't been drugged.
I would say that a troubled mental state works in the same way the drug does. Lilly wouldn't have killed Carley if she didn't have the underlying urge to do so, but she also wouldn't have done so if she had not been in an impaired mental state. So, in a way, she has less responsability over her actions that she would have had if she had killed Carley in a sane mental state.
However, we should never fall on the error of believing that, because the person who did the action has less responsability, said action stopped being immoral. The killing of Carley continues to be immoral—whether Lilly is freed from the responsability or not is a different matter entirely.
Flaws and vulnerability are the recipe to memorable characters!
Yes you did!
They were very close to Wellington.
Carver's camp was overrun by walkers. It was even more risky for AJ to go back there if the walkers didn't leave the place. AJ would starve to death. But Jane didn't care about the baby. She wanted Clem as her new sister, she wanted to be her own boss at Carver's camp since she knew the place instead of doing what Kenny says and also she wanted to get out of the cold.
Also Bonnie only said " I think Rebecca mentioned there should be a baby formula there". If you add that risk of not having a baby formula there too on top of possible walkers, it was more risky to go there. And if everything went according to the plan they still had to find more formula in other places. Kenny only took the less risky and more permenant solution for the baby. Jane tried to take the best solution for her. Not for AJ or Clem.
They were nowhere close to Wellington...Carver's camp is in Tennessee....there is noway you get close to Wellington in the day since leaving Parker's Run Civil War Museum(Also in Tennessee).
They weren't at the museum at that time. They were at Russian group's place. And the place where Kenny and Jane fought was very close to Wellington. It was up in the north close to Michigan.
Da fuck happened to my comment?
Edit: Nevermind.
She's technically right. Arvo's house is in North Carolina(for some reason), while the Woodchuck Rest Area was in Virginia. Had Kenny not alienated everyone, Jane's plan would've been the easier choice. On the other hand, had Jane not riled up Kenny, Wellington would've been just as far a trip.
There was no way they got basically 2 states distance in a very short time.
I don't know. I don't really know anything about America's geography. But that's what they were talking about. It was snowing since they left the museum and then they traveled for 2 days to reach Arvo's place. Then Kenny drove the truck for hours to that stop where he said they were very close.
I will say Arvo's house being in NC is possible...but WoodChuck Rest...does it say in game it is in Virginia...because that would be the most ass backwards way to get to wellington.
I don't think so. I never had seen anyone mention Virginia in the game.
Please don't overuse large letters.
The dangerous thing about Lilly is that she tried to play Judge, Jury, and Executioner without considering anyone else thoughts
This is a little bit off topic, but you know what really sucks? Kenny and Lilly both had a lot of valid points. It's just that they both had headstrong, commandeering personalities that made them absolutely incompatible with each other.
They could have been a force to be reckoned with if they were able to cooperate with each other, but their personalities simply wouldn't let them do that. Neither one could live with the other being 'in charge'.
In season 1 when Lee is at Hershel's Farm he asks Lee about his family in the barn, if you choose the "Ex-Wife" option he'll say "she now lives in Virginia"
I couldn't stand him myself--always yelling, always freaking out about everything, being a total PITA unless you adhered very strictly to his code of conduct--which was murky at best.
But that was before I figured out what The Kenny Rules are.
I did a playthrough of S1 using those rules as a Kenny-management strategy, and ended up with Kenny's eternal respect for Lee. I continued through Season 2, and the same strategy worked. By the end, I didn't want to leave him: I finally understood he would do absolutely anything for AJ and Clem, even if it killed him.
That was an easy choice, while Jane for me was meh because I just didn't know enough about her. She lost her sister--but everyone in this game has lost at least somebody so that didn't make me empathize with her much. When she came back to the rest area with no AJ, I immediately assumed she'd left him in the snow or tossed him to a walker because she was either afraid of what might happen to him, or unwilling to bring a child up in that world with all its horrors.
If I'd got to know her better over the rest of the season, I might have made different assumptions. But as it was, I barely blamed Kenny for going after her. Maybe if we'd had an opportunity to get the Jane Rules sorted out, it would have been different.
My Lee was nice to him and he was still an asshole to my Lee.
The only ending I felt was wrong was the alone ending. Just the idea that Clementine (an 11 year-old) taking care of an infant, walking through a horde of zombies with said infant in hand seems way too - for a lack of better words - edgy. Clementine showed how smart she is, and capable, so it just didn't make sense for her to do something like that. I found the other endings believable, though.
I only used slightly larger (four #) letters so my written part didn't get lost beneath the rather large images.
Jane's endings were terrible! And im not saying that because I dislike her but it's like Telltale already had a fav ending and we know what that was
Jane Rules:
But infants in harm's way just to prove a dumb point.
Never shut up about your sister.
Leave everyone and anyone the first chance they show they pull you down.
Give a memento to the one person you like in said shitty group and hope they don't think you're a bad person, even though you are.
Constantly poke the bear.
There ya go!
(To any Jane fans, please don't get your panties in a bunch, it's a joke....kinda....not really. Anyways, learn to let some things slide.)
Fist bump. Us Kenny fans stick together lol.
Depends what lines you said to him.
No lol
Throughout the entirety of Season One, I always talked to Kenny in a calm, collected and friendly manner, the only times I did something he didn't like were choosing not to side with him or Lilly, trying to save Larry, trying to shoot the walkers that were attacking Beatrice and saving Ben whilst also giving Duck a candy bar, water and animal crackers, giving him and Duck as well as attempting to give Katjaa rations, Agreeing with him on every other topic that didn't include taking entirely different sides and being truthful and kind to his entire family in addition to all the non-determinant things that Lee does for him and his family.
They both killed a group member entirely because of assumptions, not even giving the people they've survived with a chance. They're both on the same level of low in my opinion.
I'm not sure why people try to make it seem as though Jane managed to force Clementine to shoot Kenny whilst she was in the middle of being stabbed by him and pinned to the ground... Clementine shoots Kenny out of her own choice, don't blame one character's decision on another. That's like saying Kenny forced Clementine to shoot him.
Honestly, it's people like you that give fans of Kenny a bad name, attacking the entire fan-base of a fictional character, calling them emotionless and possible psychopaths? Really? Leave the irrational assumptions at the door and please try to be respectful of your fellow human beings.
Kenny was far from the only one who saved the group from terrible events:
Honestly, I don't recall Kenny doing that much for the group in Season Two, at least in terms of actions that benefited the group or multiple members of it.
The radio thing was definitely heroic of him but in terms of who caused him pain, don't blame the group, blame the actual villain - Carver, the whole reason Season Two happened this way. Yeah, I'll also give him props for helping Rebecca give birth to AJ, but was it really necessary to keep him in the cold with him instead of sitting by the fire to at least keep him warm? At least he does it determinantly. I wouldn't call Kenny constantly bashing the head of a walker 'saving' the group, considering all everyone had to do was run. Again, it was Jane who actually saved the group in the end, Kenny and everyone else played their mostly unseen parts but Jane was the whole reason Vitali didn't kill Kenny right then and there. He isn't the only one who secures the area and takes watches ya know - I don't recall Clementine seeing anyone else fall asleep.
They complain because they don't want to find Wellington - which was only a rumor at that point in time, they wanted to go somewhere else instead - either Howe's which they knew had baby formula or a different area entirely. Being a dictator doesn't make him a good guy, even if he's right in the end he's completely disregarding the opinions of the majority of his group, not even taking them into consideration. Except the whole scenario with Arvo was worsened by Kenny's beatings, I do still dislike Arvo for shooting Clementine like that out of a misunderstanding about Natasha's death but that doesn't excuse Kenny's prior actions of bullying and tormenting the guy out of resentment for Rebecca's death. I also dislike how Bonnie, Mike and Arvo tried to take everything with them though, that was purely selfish of them.
Pursuing the long-term best interest of AJ, Clementine and the group by going after Wellington while others talk about going back, Carver's camp, Texas etc. because it's cold in the north. Telling Clementine she did the right decision and she's right no matter what she does. Eventually he's proven right again by finding Wellington and sacrificing himself for AJ and Clementine just like he sacrificed himself for Ben or Christa again in the first season.
They had good reason to disagree with finding Wellington, remember, at the time it was only a rumor, no one actually knew if it existed and you can't blame people for not wanting to take a risk of trying to find a place that might not exist when your group is low on supplies, is caring for a baby and has no idea where the place they're looking for actually is. He doesn't always agree with Clementine's decisions, considering he shoots Walter regardless if Clementine tries to stop him, can do the same with Alvin, gets angry at her whenever she disagrees with him and disregards her own opinion of where she thinks they should go, not to mention blame her for the death of Sarita, regardless of what happened. Honestly, I wouldn't call putting Ben out of his misery was a 'sacrifice', sure it had noble intent but he literally could've just shot Ben and left with Lee, it was stupid to close the gate and leave himself in the alleyway. As for Christa, yeah, that is definitely a point for Kenny! In terms of Wellington, however? How does he sacrifice himself for Clementine and AJ at that point? He does ask Edith if they could take Clementine and AJ into consideration but at the end it's Clementine's choice and it was entirely up to Wellington's community to decide whether they'll accept children inside.
Those must've been very subtle hints then, I do like Kenny, even if I do often criticize what he does (it just proves he's a rather compelling character for me) but you might be right in that aspect of the game's bias towards Kenny. In terms of Jane's perspective on Kenny, I honestly think that there were far more hints that she felt sympathy for him - asking Clementine to look after him even after he blamed the ambush on her and even telling Clementine to offer Kenny the alcohol saying "He needs it more than anybody", it takes time for her to actually show disdain towards Kenny - the final straw is when he beats Arvo to near death in the assumption that he's lying. Also, I'm not sure why people think that Jane tried to replace Jaime with Clementine, if anything, Jane liked Clementine because she was a survivor and didn't want to give up like her sister did and I highly doubt being around Clementine would ease her pain over Jaime's death considering that she still felt emotional when Rebecca argued with her and she told her story, heck, feeling guilt about Jaime's death just makes Jane more human in comparison to what you seem to be making her out to be - inhuman or psychopathic.
I agree with the ending though, what Jane did at the end of Episode 5 was rather stupid, even if the intention was understandable. The thing about the situation that doesn't make Kenny any better is that he attacked Jane without wanting to hear an explanation and as soon as she's defenseless too, Jane defenitely is more to blame for the situation but Kenny isn't out of the equation for proving Jane's point at just how dangerous he can be.
Also, we have seen Jane was just talk about surviving. She's cunning and she brought knife to ensure that she could kill Kenny and she was so confident about killing him that she wanted Clementine to stay out of it no matter what happens.
Well, she's a survivor, they all are, they eventually talk about different ways to survive throughout both seasons - heck, most of the lessons Clementine is taught in both Seasons are about survival. Didn't Jane always have that knife? At least from the end of Episode 3?
You can't expect her not to exploit his weaknesses when he attacks her do you? It would be rather unrealistic if a survivalist doesn't exploit the attacker's weakness in an attempt to survive. Jane was dying, what else could she do but say "Clem". In the end her point is emphasized - Kenny is dangerous enough to kill a group member, although I think Clementine already knew that beforehand.
Honestly, I hope all endings are taken into account, if they even disregard a single ending, I don't think I'm going to trust them whenever they say "Choices will" anything. I might have defended them on the choice subject for every game they put out but I'm not going to keep defending them if they disregard what they themselves call 'important' decisions. If they did create the Jane endings to make the player feel like the Kenny ending is the right one, that only means they're biased and I think that's the worst thing a choice-based game can be. Personally, I value the opinion of the whole group over a single individual, which is why, overall, I disliked Kenny's attitude in both Seasons. Kenny is still a good character of course but he's very flawed, just like most characters - which makes sense in a post-apocalyptic world.
P.S. Looks like people were right about these debates starting up right before Season Three's release!
Aww and it just wasn't enough lol
Lilly could have given the group (well Ben) a chance to admit what he did and as a group settle down and talk without her doing what she did. Difference is, there "was" time for that but there was no time in the meat locker to give Larry that chance. Please no arguments.
They were both under assumption though yes...
'If you treat Kenny well, he treats you well. If you're an asshole to him, he's an asshole to you'.
Not really.
If you try to revive Larry, Kenny will leave you to die at the beginning of episode 3. That's not really being an asshole to Kenny, and he literally is fine with you dying if you do it, leaving Clementine alone.
That's not healthy friendship. That's not selflessness. It's being petty as hell.
Same in the end of episode 4. If you aren't always lovely to Kenny, he won't be immediately up for saving Clementine, because he doesn't like Lee. He will be fine with leaving a little girl in the hands of her abductor because he doesn't like her parent much.
It's fine acknowledging that he isn't always awful, but you can't make generalised statements about how Kenny always treats you fairly when there are so many counterexamples.
Literally at the beginning of the next episode he leaves you being crushed by zombies under a door if you didn't help him kill Larry.
I view him not offering to help save Clementine because he doesn't like Lee as a betrayal of Clementine.
Which is exactly what Jane does by faking a scenario to intentionally break someone who is obviously already struggling, to make it seem to Clem that that's all what he is now. The thing is, Jane gave Clem an ultimatum. It was either her or him. Even though she's in a bad situation and about to get killed by Kenny, she chooses to still not reveal she was lying by saying AJ was alive in the car and end the fight. Why? Because this was part of her plan and she wasn't ready to give it up because that would just fuck up her chances with Clem even more, specially if Kenny lived. She wanted Kenny gone, one way or another. She wanted that even before they got into that car. She obviously begins her plan to break him by mentioning his family and how it was his fault they all died. She was already setting the wheels on motion. Bring Kenny to the edge and make him hate her some more, so it would be a surefire way to make him jump once she faked AJ's death. She didn't manage to kill him herself in the end (even though she obviously tried and had no intentions to fight defensively), so she wanted Clem to do it in the end. She says "Clem, help" even though she told her to stay out of it multiple times before and during the fight. At that point, obviously Clem and the player doesn't know that AJ was alive and doesn't know if it was an accident or if she did really get rid of him. So in that moment, Clem has to decide if she wants to save Jane or not. I've seen a lot of videos of people playing the ending and those who go with Jane, get manipulated into believing there was no hope for Kenny and that he was lost (when if you go with his endings, you can clearly see he was not) and that Jane just probably did a mistake and didn't deserve to die. But despite of what the players might think, and if you want to believe your Clem didn't like Kenny, it was still hard for her to kill him because she is heartbroken by it, and Jane makes her go through that just because she wanted Kenny out of the picture so she could have Clem all to herself. That's what we're discussing. The fact that Jane is so manipulative and selfish (if you decide to leave her, she admits "I can't do this alone, is that what you want to hear?").