'If you treat Kenny well, he treats you well. If you're an asshole to him, he's an asshole to you'.
Not really.
If you try to revive L… morearry, Kenny will leave you to die at the beginning of episode 3. That's not really being an asshole to Kenny, and he literally is fine with you dying if you do it, leaving Clementine alone.
That's not healthy friendship. That's not selflessness. It's being petty as hell.
Same in the end of episode 4. If you aren't always lovely to Kenny, he won't be immediately up for saving Clementine, because he doesn't like Lee. He will be fine with leaving a little girl in the hands of her abductor because he doesn't like her parent much.
It's fine acknowledging that he isn't always awful, but you can't make generalised statements about how Kenny always treats you fairly when there are so many counterexamples.
Two can play at that game.
If you treat Kenny well, he treats you well. If you're an asshole to him, he's an assh… moreole to you. And regardless of your choices, he always sacrifices himself for Ben/Christa, saves Lee in the drugstore, takes the beating from Carver and urges Clem to stay in Wellington. Kenny is no saint, but he's not a horrible human being either, regardless of your choices.
In s2 other than Clem Im pretty sure Kenny did do the most. The only times when someone else saved someone was when Kenny wasn't there, for example having to save Sarah.
Kenny was far from the only one who saved the group from terrible events:
* Episode Two: I believe it was a group effort involving Walt… moreer, Nick, Carlos etc. to fight off the invading walkers outside the Ski Lodge
* Episode Three: It was almost entirely Clementine, with some help from Luke Kenny, Jane and Bonnie as well to escape from Howe's, technically Mike as well, also it was Clementine that saved the whole group from Carver with aid from Luke afterwards and it was Jane who saved the group from Troy.
* Episode Four: It was Jane that saved Rebecca, an unborn AJ and Clementine from the walker horde, it was also Jane and Clementine who saved Luke and determinantly Sarah, it was also Jane who opened up Observation Deck - which the group uses as their temporary base and Kenny had determinant help from Mike to fight off the walkers.
* Episode Five: Luke and Clementine fought the Russian group with Kenny but it was Jane who saved Kenny an… [view original content]
If you try to revive Larry, Kenny will leave you to die at the beginning of episode 3. That's not really being an asshole to Kenny, and he literally is fine with you dying if you do it, leaving Clementine alone.
Actually no Flog. You see what A lot of people especially Kenny haters keep failing to see is that he doesn't leave Lee to die because he was pissed that he didn't help him kill Larry, he was pissed because he felt that Lee put his own and everyone else's life in danger, putting them all at risk trying to save a man (who by the way most certainly wouldn't have tried and revived Lee if it was the other way around) who was clinically dead anyway and was possibly moments away from turning.
In the first 5 or so mins of the Fear the walking dead's episode "Do Not Disturb" is a brilliant and yet eerie coincidence to be compared to the meat locker scene. That fear episode opening proves to me that in a situation like that, as shitty as it may be, it is not worth putting others in danger trying to revive someone who is pretty much dead already.
You of course will never see it like i do which is fine so the convo ends here i guess.
That's not healthy friendship. That's not selflessness. It's being petty as hell.
Don't get me wrong, i didn't like what he did either and it was extreme but it happened just to show the players that our choices were different depending on what was chosen. It was badly arranged in my opinion. I think the writers wanted the players to hate Kenny. Not all of us fall into that trap though.
Same in the end of episode 4. If you aren't always lovely to Kenny, he won't be immediately up for saving Clementine, because he doesn't like Lee. He will be fine with leaving a little girl in the hands of her abductor because he doesn't like her parent much.
Oh yeah?? Except you forget (or more so choose to ignore) the fact that Lee seems to be fine with helping Larry throw Duck out to the walkers. Same thing, how is that any different? Im pretty sure I would hate someone and wouldn't want to help that person if they had wanted to do that to my son but because it's "Kenny" he is automatically the number 1 hate target of being a shit when it comes to that episode 4 ending right? Lol but yes let's all forget about how Lee can determinantely treat Kenny. Also i have always said that its funny because in the end, regardless of choice, Kenny still helps Lee and seems determined to find her after Lee gets back from Vernon's anyway. He even says "i hope you find her" and says he'll wait with the boat or words similar to that.
'If you treat Kenny well, he treats you well. If you're an asshole to him, he's an asshole to you'.
Not really.
If you try to revive L… morearry, Kenny will leave you to die at the beginning of episode 3. That's not really being an asshole to Kenny, and he literally is fine with you dying if you do it, leaving Clementine alone.
That's not healthy friendship. That's not selflessness. It's being petty as hell.
Same in the end of episode 4. If you aren't always lovely to Kenny, he won't be immediately up for saving Clementine, because he doesn't like Lee. He will be fine with leaving a little girl in the hands of her abductor because he doesn't like her parent much.
It's fine acknowledging that he isn't always awful, but you can't make generalised statements about how Kenny always treats you fairly when there are so many counterexamples.
Actually no Flog. You see what A lot of people especially Kenny haters keep failing to see is that he doesn't leave Lee to die because he was pissed that he didn't help him kill Larry, he was pissed because he felt that Lee put his own and everyone else's life in danger, putting them all at risk trying to save a man (who by the way most certainly wouldn't have tried and revived Lee if it was the other way around) who was clinically dead anyway and was possibly moments away from turning.
Is being pissed at someone a good enough reason to leave them to die?
You may say Kenny had good motivations to try to kill Larry, but Lee can have good motivations to try to save him as well. It's not a morally black/white choice.
He should not have left Clementine's guardian to die for the sake of this. By all means they could sit down and talk it out, but not helping someone out of spite? No thanks.
Don't get me wrong, i didn't like what he did either and it was extreme but it happened just to show the players that our choices were different depending on what was chosen. It was badly arranged in my opinion. I think the writers wanted the players to hate Kenny. Not all of us fall into that trap though.
The writers have put Kenny in every single episode apart from one - I really don't think they want us to hate him.
Also I'm not sure it's fair to just label the bad things Kenny does as bad or weird writing, or part of some agenda of the writers. When we talk about 'Kenny' we are talking about the character as represented in the game. The fact that he left lee to die is just as valid a part of his characterisation as rescuing Christa.
Oh yeah?? Except you forget (or more so choose to ignore) the fact that Lee seems to be fine with helping Larry throw Duck out to the walkers. Same thing, how is that any different? Im pretty sure I would hate someone and wouldn't want to help that person if they had wanted to do that to my son but because it's "Kenny" he is automatically the number 1 hate target of being a shit when it comes to that episode 4 ending right? Lol but yes let's all forget about how Lee can determinantely treat Kenny. Also i have always said that its funny because in the end, regardless of choice, Kenny still helps Lee and seems determined to find her after Lee gets back from Vernon's anyway. He even says "i hope you find her" and says he'll wait with the boat or words similar to that.
I hate Larry more than Kenny, so I'm not sure what you're trying to imply.
In addition, when we talk about Kenny as a character in the game we need to consider all of his possible actions, not just his determinant ones. You can't say Kenny is a good person because determinantly he helps find clementine anymore than I can say he is a bad person because determinantly he doesn't. However what we can say is that, for him, the situation of saving a little girl wasn't a no brainer, and he based whether he should save the child off of his like/dislike of Lee, rather than saving Clementine because it's objectively the right thing to do.
If he really hoped we'd find her I do not understand why he wouldn't come, can't think of any good reason for him not to try to save her. He was being selfish - and that is a part of his characterisation.
He isn't perfect, and he makes mistakes. Like all characters in the game. That's what can make him an endearing character. But you seem reluctant to consider how he might have been anything less than a paragon of virtue in this scene.
If you try to revive Larry, Kenny will leave you to die at the beginning of episode 3. That's not really being an asshole to Kenny, and he l… moreiterally is fine with you dying if you do it, leaving Clementine alone.
Actually no Flog. You see what A lot of people especially Kenny haters keep failing to see is that he doesn't leave Lee to die because he was pissed that he didn't help him kill Larry, he was pissed because he felt that Lee put his own and everyone else's life in danger, putting them all at risk trying to save a man (who by the way most certainly wouldn't have tried and revived Lee if it was the other way around) who was clinically dead anyway and was possibly moments away from turning.
In the first 5 or so mins of the Fear the walking dead's episode "Do Not Disturb" is a brilliant and yet eerie coincidence to be compared to the meat locker scene. That fear episode opening proves to me that in a situation like that, as shit… [view original content]
I've been around, mainly lurking and occasionally commenting in Telltale talk. Didn't see much use in spending time in the TWD forum because the threads were either spam or repetitions of the exact same arguments people have been having for years, but have come back for season 3 discussion!
However what we can say is that, for him, the situation of saving a little girl wasn't a no brainer, and he based whether he should save the child off of his like/dislike of Lee, rather than saving Clementine because it's objectively the right thing to do.
I said this to someone else but I'll just leave it here as well:
Well, can you blame him? I mean, if you refuse to help him and his family when they needed, and if you're constantly disagreeing with him, you really think he would treat you well after that? It's been said multiple times, family means everything to him, the second you put them in danger or if you don't care about them at all and aren't willing to help them, don't expect him to do the same for you. If you don't choose to save a little boy that is being grabbed by walkers (at the farm), or if you don't defend him when a stranger is saying they need to kill him or throw him out just because he's covered in walker's blood, or if you don't give him food when he needs it, or even if you let a father kill his own son and live with it for the rest of his life, then your Lee is not a very good person in my book so you're really not in any position to judge Kenny when you literally did worse.
And I'll add: if you do those things for Duck (which should be the right thing to do) then Kenny will agree to help you regardless if you were an asshole to him all game long. Because you showed you are a good man that cares about the kids and does the right thing. Sure, maybe you need to remind him of the value of family before he agrees to help you, but the thing is that he does. Kenny is a very loyal guy. If you do something for him, he will repay you. If not, don't expect him to put himself in danger to help you. This has nothing to do with Clementine and if he cares about her or not (which he does, and he even says so). It's about a guy asking him for help when he did nothing for him and his family in the past.
I find it funny that Lee can be a complete asshole and terrible human being that doesn't care about a kid's safety just because he doesn't want to, but if it's Kenny not giving a shit about helping you because you didn't help him and his family, then he is a terrible person. Such double standards.
Actually no Flog. You see what A lot of people especially Kenny haters keep failing to see is that he doesn't leave Lee to die because he wa… mores pissed that he didn't help him kill Larry, he was pissed because he felt that Lee put his own and everyone else's life in danger, putting them all at risk trying to save a man (who by the way most certainly wouldn't have tried and revived Lee if it was the other way around) who was clinically dead anyway and was possibly moments away from turning.
Is being pissed at someone a good enough reason to leave them to die?
You may say Kenny had good motivations to try to kill Larry, but Lee can have good motivations to try to save him as well. It's not a morally black/white choice.
He should not have left Clementine's guardian to die for the sake of this. By all means they could sit down and talk it out, but not helping someone out of spite? No thanks.
Don't get me wrong, i didn't like what… [view original content]
However what we can say is that, for him, the situation of saving a little girl wasn't a no brainer, and he based whether he should save the… more child off of his like/dislike of Lee, rather than saving Clementine because it's objectively the right thing to do.
I said this to someone else but I'll just leave it here as well:
Well, can you blame him? I mean, if you refuse to help him and his family when they needed, and if you're constantly disagreeing with him, you really think he would treat you well after that? It's been said multiple times, family means everything to him, the second you put them in danger or if you don't care about them at all and aren't willing to help them, don't expect him to do the same for you. If you don't choose to save a little boy that is being grabbed by walkers (at the farm), or if you don't defend him when a stranger is saying they need to kill him or throw him out just because he's covered in walker's… [view original content]
Is being pissed at someone a good enough reason to leave them to die?
I already said it was extreme and I didn't like it but technically he didn't "leave" him to die, he just let Lee take care of himself. I would definitely say had Lee been bitten as a result of him not helping then that would be considered ten times worse.
You may say Kenny had good motivations to try to kill Larry, but Lee can have good motivations to try to save him as well. It's not a morally black/white choice.
Except in a dangerous situation as they were in, a good motivation to try and save a life wouldn't matter shit if they had all ended up dead would it?
He should not have left Clementine's guardian to die for the sake of this. By all means they could sit down and talk it out, but not helping someone out of spite? No thanks.
Again i feel you see that whole scenario completely differently and i said above why.
I hate Larry more than Kenny, so I'm not sure what you're trying to imply.
Wasn't implying anything. I used that scene as an example.
he based whether he should save the child off of his like/dislike of Lee, rather than saving Clementine because it's objectively the right thing to do.
It's as @pinktwist said, can you blame him? If Lee doesn't care about him or his family then why should he care about Lee and his family (Clem)? You call that selfish? How about all the times Lee can be that way? But no no it's Kenny so he automatically goes to the top of the shitlist lol and that's the problem with the hate for him.
Anyway @pinkytwist saved me a job so i'll finish here.
Actually no Flog. You see what A lot of people especially Kenny haters keep failing to see is that he doesn't leave Lee to die because he wa… mores pissed that he didn't help him kill Larry, he was pissed because he felt that Lee put his own and everyone else's life in danger, putting them all at risk trying to save a man (who by the way most certainly wouldn't have tried and revived Lee if it was the other way around) who was clinically dead anyway and was possibly moments away from turning.
Is being pissed at someone a good enough reason to leave them to die?
You may say Kenny had good motivations to try to kill Larry, but Lee can have good motivations to try to save him as well. It's not a morally black/white choice.
He should not have left Clementine's guardian to die for the sake of this. By all means they could sit down and talk it out, but not helping someone out of spite? No thanks.
Don't get me wrong, i didn't like what… [view original content]
Psychological manipulation is a type of social influence that aims to change the behavior or perception of others through abusive, deceptive… more, or underhanded tactics.
Which is exactly what Jane does by faking a scenario to intentionally break someone who is obviously already struggling, to make it seem to Clem that that's all what he is now. The thing is, Jane gave Clem an ultimatum. It was either her or him. Even though she's in a bad situation and about to get killed by Kenny, she chooses to still not reveal she was lying by saying AJ was alive in the car and end the fight. Why? Because this was part of her plan and she wasn't ready to give it up because that would just fuck up her chances with Clem even more, specially if Kenny lived. She wanted Kenny gone, one way or another. She wanted that even before they got into that car. She obviously begins her plan to break him by mentioning his family and how it was his fault they all died… [view original content]
Thanks that's kind!
I've been around, mainly lurking and occasionally commenting in Telltale talk. Didn't see much use in spending time i… moren the TWD forum because the threads were either spam or repetitions of the exact same arguments people have been having for years, but have come back for season 3 discussion!
Well, can you blame him? I mean, if you refuse to help him and his family when they needed, and if you're constantly disagreeing with him, you really think he would treat you well after that? It's been said multiple times, family means everything to him, the second you put them in danger or if you don't care about them at all and aren't willing to help them, don't expect him to do the same for you. If you don't choose to save a little boy that is being grabbed by walkers (at the farm), or if you don't defend him when a stranger is saying they need to kill him or throw him out just because he's covered in walker's blood, or if you don't give him food when he needs it, or even if you let a father kill his own son and live with it for the rest of his life, then your Lee is not a very good person in my book so you're really not in any position to judge Kenny when you literally did worse.
The problem is that he treats you negatively regardless of your past actions that aided him and his family so long as you try to save Larry or even stay out of it. I find it entirely heinous that you have to be completely one-sided as Lee in order to ensure Kenny helps you - so it doesn't matter that my Lee saved Duck, defended him from Larry, gave him a candy bar, gave him and Kenny rations and even agreed with him about the St. John's hiding something, he automatically is alright with my Lee dying just because he didn't want to kill someone before at least attempting to save him?
And I'll add: if you do those things for Duck (which should be the right thing to do) then Kenny will agree to help you regardless if you were an asshole to him all game long. Because you showed you are a good man that cares about the kids and does the right thing. Sure, maybe you need to remind him of the value of family before he agrees to help you, but the thing is that he does. Kenny is a very loyal guy. If you do something for him, he will repay you. If not, don't expect him to put himself in danger to help you. This has nothing to do with Clementine and if he cares about her or not (which he does, and he even says so). It's about a guy asking him for help when he did nothing for him and his family in the past.
It's nice to know that I have to constantly do things for Kenny in order for him to repay past actions - it only takes one disagreement with him to let my Lee die without even trying to aid him despite the numerous other times when my Lee has been loyal to Kenny? What? I have to be his lap dog in order to get him to help me when I'm about to die?
I find it funny that Lee can be a complete asshole and terrible human being that doesn't care about a kid's safety just because he doesn't want to, but if it's Kenny not giving a shit about helping you because you didn't help him and his family, then he is a terrible person. Such double standards.
The double standard only exists with people who play Lee as an asshole, even then, choosing to save Shawn and siding with Larry or being neutral are not entirely unjustifiable decisions considering that Lee has himself and others to look out for too, Kenny isn't the only one with friends and family.
However what we can say is that, for him, the situation of saving a little girl wasn't a no brainer, and he based whether he should save the… more child off of his like/dislike of Lee, rather than saving Clementine because it's objectively the right thing to do.
I said this to someone else but I'll just leave it here as well:
Well, can you blame him? I mean, if you refuse to help him and his family when they needed, and if you're constantly disagreeing with him, you really think he would treat you well after that? It's been said multiple times, family means everything to him, the second you put them in danger or if you don't care about them at all and aren't willing to help them, don't expect him to do the same for you. If you don't choose to save a little boy that is being grabbed by walkers (at the farm), or if you don't defend him when a stranger is saying they need to kill him or throw him out just because he's covered in walker's… [view original content]
not even giving the people they've survived with a chance
Lilly could have given the group (well Ben) a chance to admit what he did … moreand as a group settle down and talk without her doing what she did. Difference is, there "was" time for that but there was no time in the meat locker to give Larry that chance. Please no arguments.
Do you truly believe that Kenny would believe Jane if she said AJ was lying? Considering Jane already says prior to the fight "I didn't kill him" and Kenny responds with "Liar!" out of pure assumption.
You say this was her plan even before the car? Do you think it's completely unjustifiable considering his attempts to become the group's dictator and his attempt to kill Arvo out of anger for Luke's death? Which, might I add, Arvo had no actual role in. The only reason she starts verbally attacking Kenny is because Kenny instigates the argument in the first place and Kenny had his own low-blows towards Jane in the argument.
No intentions to fight defensively? She was doing just that, Kenny was trying to kill her, do you think she should've just let him without putting up a fight?
Well, perhaps most players didn't know that AJ was alive but I was one of the players that realized what was going on in this situation, of course I didn't like it and tried to break up the fight.
By the way, I'm not sure how the Wellington ending shows that Kenny isn't 'lost' considering that the only reason he doesn't instigate anymore arguments is because he has no one opposing him anymore. He himself even states that he believes he is unfit to care for Clementine and AJ.
My Clementine was forced into relationships with characters and despite disagreeing with all of Kenny's actions and all the time he yelled at Clementine for having an opposing opinion, my Clementine shows more emotion for Kenny's death than she does for anyone else she's gotten close to. That feels like a static and forced relationship, making the game feel very biased towards Kenny. You can argue that Clementine is her own character but we, as the players, are meant to have a choice in the relationships she has with everyone but in the whole season the only relationship that permanently changes is her relationship with Bonnie, even then that is dependent on a single decision.
I'm not saying that Jane isn't manipulative and she, like everyone else, has her selfish moments but Kenny is just as selfish and ruthless.
Psychological manipulation is a type of social influence that aims to change the behavior or perception of others through abusive, deceptive… more, or underhanded tactics.
Which is exactly what Jane does by faking a scenario to intentionally break someone who is obviously already struggling, to make it seem to Clem that that's all what he is now. The thing is, Jane gave Clem an ultimatum. It was either her or him. Even though she's in a bad situation and about to get killed by Kenny, she chooses to still not reveal she was lying by saying AJ was alive in the car and end the fight. Why? Because this was part of her plan and she wasn't ready to give it up because that would just fuck up her chances with Clem even more, specially if Kenny lived. She wanted Kenny gone, one way or another. She wanted that even before they got into that car. She obviously begins her plan to break him by mentioning his family and how it was his fault they all died… [view original content]
In s2 other than Clem Im pretty sure Kenny did do the most. The only times when someone else saved someone was when Kenny wasn't there, for example having to save Sarah.
EDIT: Scrap what i said below because I want you to think about the 2 again and compare how long each scenario could last if given the chance because that was my original argument:
How long would Lilly have to be able to talk rationally and find out from the group who it was that stole? An hour? A day?
With Larry how long would they have had? A few seconds? A minute? Given the proof they saw of how fast David/Travis turned. Which is why i said what i did about having no time to take with Larry compared to Lilly's situation
there was no time in the meat locker to give Larry that chance.
Well, please present your evidence that proves this (assumptions don't count) and I won't be able to argue with you!
I understand the situation was different and the time likely, not indefinitely, differed (again, assumptions don't count as evidence) however, the thing is that in both situations they tried to and in the case of Carley and Larry, they succeeded in killing the group member they saw as a threat.
If you want to take into account the possibility of Larry being dead and about turn - based off of the David and Travis scenario, in other words, Kenny's mind state at the time was the possibility of a threat then perhaps take into the account Lilly's mental state as well? Her father was killed only about a week ago, she feels completely alone with no one actually attempting to comfort her and there's a group member stealing supplies behind the entire group's back and almost everyone else thinks she's crazy because of it. Of course that is no justifying Lilly killing Carley or Doug, as Kenny is still not completely justified in killing Larry, out of the assumption that Carley and Ben were the thieves.
Let's talk of her emotional state - from what I read often in Jane vs Kenny debates, people like to point out that Kenny was a wreck at the time and that Jane knew this and often use that as a way to justify Kenny's immediate response, well then, I'd like to do the same for Lilly in this scenario - Carley knew that Lilly was evidently a wreck and emotionally unstable, yet she still antagonized her. Again, I'm not justifying what Lilly did but her actions are understandable given the situation and her mental and emotional state at the time.
I think David/Travis turning as fast as they did was enough proof but of course that still won't be acceptable to you because lord prink is always right about everything...nope
What is funny though is that you say you would actually risk your life when in reality if you weren't behind a computer screen discussing this, i don't think you would at all and if you did well...i refer you to that fear TWD episode i mentioned. It is exactly the reason why I wouldn't.
Don't you dare try to act like you know me. I'm not sure what your problem is with me? Whenever you start arguments with me and/or whenever I show an opposing perspective, you like to heat things up and sometimes make it personal. Is this really necessary Dan? Tell me one time that I've ever made an assumption about you as a person or mocked you for having an opposing opinion to me? You know, you used to be one of the people I respected the most on these forums but now I'm not too sure.
EDIT: Scrap what i said below because I want you to think about the 2 again and compare how long each scenario could last if given the chanc… moree because that was my original argument:
How long would Lilly have to be able to talk rationally and find out from the group who it was that stole? An hour? A day?
With Larry how long would they have had? A few seconds? A minute? Given the proof they saw of how fast David/Travis turned. Which is why i said what i did about having no time to take with Larry compared to Lilly's situation
Do you truly believe that Kenny would believe Jane if she said AJ was lying? Considering Jane already says prior to the fight "I didn't kill him" and Kenny responds with "Liar!" out of pure assumption.
I said this on another comment: In the past Jane showed how much she was willing to leave people behind to save her own ass and how she was not really comfortable with having the baby around ("what are you going to do with it?"). There was no way the baby could've been killed in an accident if she had him on her arms and kept walking from the walkers. She's an expert at surviving, do you really think she would've "accidentally" get AJ killed and somehow survive without a scratch? When I was first playing the game, I also didn't believe her.
You say this was her plan even before the car? Do you think it's completely unjustifiable considering (..)
The simple fact that she was scheming on how to get Kenny killed, just shows the kind of person she is. Kenny on the other hand, may have yelled at her too and said things not that nice, but the second they were about to crash, the first thing he asks is if she's ok. Kenny would never think to kill her or even get rid of her in that moment, even after she said all those cruel things about his family.
No intentions to fight defensively? She was doing just that, Kenny was trying to kill her, do you think she should've just let him without putting up a fight?
I recommend you to go watch that scene again carefully. The moment they step outside and Kenny is hurt (courtesy of Jane), he isn't doing anything and is slowly backing away. If Clem says to Jane to run or stop, Jane pushes her to the ground and says "not happening" and lunges at Kenny. Is that defensive to you? No. At that moment, she wanted to kill him. She tried to slash his face with the knife. If she wanted to truly stop the fight, she would've back down at that moment, tried to reason with him or when she was pinned to the ground, she could've admitted AJ was alive and stop the whole thing. She didn't. She had no intentions to stop the fight. On the contrary actually.
Well, perhaps most players didn't know that AJ was alive but I was one of the players that realized what was going on in this situation, of course I didn't like it and tried to break up the fight.
If most players realized AJ was probably alive and that whole thing was planned by Jane, they would probably not save her. Those playthroughs I watched that went with Jane, you could see they were obviously doubting their choice. Some tried to justify it by saying "Kenny was beyond saving I think", when he was not.
By the way, I'm not sure how the Wellington ending shows that Kenny isn't 'lost' considering that the only reason he doesn't instigate anymore arguments is because he has no one opposing him anymore. He himself even states that he believes he is unfit to care for Clementine and AJ.
He isn't lost, he just needs help. In the end he still wants what is best for the kids and would do anything to keep them safe. The only reason he wasn't angry anymore was because there weren't any more stupid people doing stupid things and putting the group in danger (Luke and Jane fooling around, the group wanting to stay at the deck when they had no food and no protection against the cold, Jane wanting to go back to Howe's even though it could still be overrun by walkers and have survivors from Carver's group, people constantly defending that little shit Arvo when it was his fault they were in that position in the first place, and in the end he was right not to trust him since he almost kills Clem. Not to mention, stupid Bonnie and Mike were willing to let a baby and a kid starve just because they wanted to get away from Kenny with that little shit. And I could go on...). The game makes it look like it's Kenny against everyone, and to be honest I would be pretty pissed too if I was in a group where most people would make stupid decisions all the time. Kenny obviously has a temper and tends to get way too angry when he shouldn't, but I can't really blame him.
My Clementine was forced into relationships with characters and despite disagreeing with all of Kenny's actions and all the time he yelled at Clementine for having an opposing opinion, my Clementine shows more emotion for Kenny's death than she does for anyone else she's gotten close to. That feels like a static and forced relationship, making the game feel very biased towards Kenny. You can argue that Clementine is her own character but we, as the players, are meant to have a choice in the relationships she has with everyone but in the whole season the only relationship that permanently changes is her relationship with Bonnie, even then that is dependent on a single decision.
No. The reason is because Clem is not a monster. Like it or not, Kenny was there since the beginning, pretty much like Lee. He was a familiar face. He always tried to keep the kids safe no matter what, so it's only natural a little kid sees Kenny in a favorable light. Even if your Clem doesn't agree with Kenny, doesn't mean she doesn't know that, deep down, there's a good man there, which is why she feels devastated when killing him.
I'm not saying that Jane isn't manipulative and she, like everyone else, has her selfish moments but Kenny is just as selfish and ruthless.
I honestly don't get why people think Kenny is selfish when everything he does is to keep the people he cares about safe. It doesn't mean his decisions are always good, but he's definitely not selfish.
Do you truly believe that Kenny would believe Jane if she said AJ was lying? Considering Jane already says prior to the fight "I didn't kill… more him" and Kenny responds with "Liar!" out of pure assumption.
You say this was her plan even before the car? Do you think it's completely unjustifiable considering his attempts to become the group's dictator and his attempt to kill Arvo out of anger for Luke's death? Which, might I add, Arvo had no actual role in. The only reason she starts verbally attacking Kenny is because Kenny instigates the argument in the first place and Kenny had his own low-blows towards Jane in the argument.
No intentions to fight defensively? She was doing just that, Kenny was trying to kill her, do you think she should've just let him without putting up a fight?
Well, perhaps most players didn't know that AJ was alive but I was one of the players that realized what was going on in this situation, of course I didn't li… [view original content]
Your issue seems to be with the Larry decision. I do agree that that decision has way too much impact on your relationship with Kenny. But it still makes sense to me because it's a crucial moment. Larry is dead at that time, he stopped breathing. People turn really fast. It was a do or die kind of decision for Kenny. His family was with the St. John's, he had no idea what they could be doing to them, in that moment he just wants to get out of that place alive to save them. When you are willing to put that at risk, to put his whole family at risk to TRY to revive a guy that would most definitely leave you both to die if the roles were reversed, he doesn't see you as a friend. But I still think it was lazy from Telltale's part to ONLY take into consideration that decision when it comes to the way Kenny treats you for the rest of the game.
Well, can you blame him? I mean, if you refuse to help him and his family when they needed, and if you're constantly disagreeing with him, y… moreou really think he would treat you well after that? It's been said multiple times, family means everything to him, the second you put them in danger or if you don't care about them at all and aren't willing to help them, don't expect him to do the same for you. If you don't choose to save a little boy that is being grabbed by walkers (at the farm), or if you don't defend him when a stranger is saying they need to kill him or throw him out just because he's covered in walker's blood, or if you don't give him food when he needs it, or even if you let a father kill his own son and live with it for the rest of his life, then your Lee is not a very good person in my book so you're really not in any position to judge Kenny when you literally did worse.
The problem is that he treats you negatively regard… [view original content]
I'll reply to this later when i finish work or get more time to type it down.
Sorry to offend you. I guess being around other forum members that hate my opinions is really getting to me these days. And sorry to hear that you no longer respect me. I can't help feeling strongly on topics such as this and sometimes i do find it hard to accept people's opposite opinions. Sometimes it comes across as though you are making it sound like i am wrong and you are right that's all
I understand the situation was different and the time likely, not indefinitely, differed (again, assumptions don't count as evidence) howeve… morer, the thing is that in both situations they tried to and in the case of Carley and Larry, they succeeded in killing the group member they saw as a threat.
If you want to take into account the possibility of Larry being dead and about turn - based off of the David and Travis scenario, in other words, Kenny's mind state at the time was the possibility of a threat then perhaps take into the account Lilly's mental state as well? Her father was killed only about a week ago, she feels completely alone with no one actually attempting to comfort her and there's a group member stealing supplies behind the entire group's back and almost everyone else thinks she's crazy because of it. Of course that is no justifying Lilly killing Carley or Doug, as Kenny is still not completely justified in killing Larry, out of… [view original content]
Like I said... nearly all of them where either clem saving people (of course being main character) or Kenny saving people. I didn't say other characters didn't save others because they did but nearly all other times the group saved each other it was when Kenny wasn't around for example all in episode one and most of episode 2. You didnt list alot of the other times kenny protected by the way, especially when kenny "sacrificed" his chance of survival to let clem go to wellington and not him. Let's not forget all the times kenny saved aj and how he was the only one that could help when Rebecca was giving birth, I could go on. Kenny was some what of the temperate leader of the new group and more than likely the strongest and the one that was OK with fighting making him other than clem the one that solved the most problems. Kenny was rarely saved by anyone else other than clem. Troy is not really an exception because troy was the one holding them captive without any weapons to begin with. Depending on how you act clem doesnt fight with kenny. Kenny fended off walkers alone to get everyome away is a choice. You literally proved my point Kenny and clem did the most suprisingly even when you didn't mention many of the other good things Kenmy did
Well, let's recount all the times people have saved people:
Episode One:
* Christa saved Clementine from Michelle and later on from … morethe scavengers
* Luke and Pete saved Clementine from walkers
* Clementine saves either Pete or Nick from walkers
Episode Two:
* Clementine keeps Sarah safe from Carver
* Clementine, Nick, Walter, Carlos etc. all helped fight off the walkers at the Ski Lodge
* Kenny and determinantly Clementine tried to save people from Carver
* Clementine can determinantly save Larry from Carver
Episode Three:
* Troy saves Clementine, Kenny and Mike from the walkers
* Kenny may have saved Clementine from Carver's punishment
* Clementine played the most significant role in the escape plan with minor aid from Kenny, Jane, Luke, Mike and big aid from Bonnie.
* Clementine with help from Luke saved the group from Carver - debatably Kenny helped to
* Jane prevented Troy from being any harm to the grou… [view original content]
Christa saved Clementine from Michelle and later on from the scavengers
Luke and Pete saved Clementine from walkers
Clementine saves either Pete or Nick from walkers
Kenny wasn't there, doesnt apply if we are counting how many times others saved eachother and not Kenny.
Episode Two:
Clementine keeps Sarah safe from Carver
Clementine, Nick, Walter, Carlos etc. all helped fight off the walkers at the Ski Lodge
Kenny and determinantly Clementine tried to save people from Carver
Clementine can determinantly save Larry from Carver
All of those where either had Clem or Kenny saving each other, once again proving my point. Lets not forget how Kenny was the only one that wasnt captured and had the only chance of saving the group with Clem, he can shoot Carver in the shoulder.
Episode Three:
Troy saves Clementine, Kenny and Mike from the walkers
Kenny may have saved Clementine from Carver's punishment
Clementine played the most significant role in the escape plan with minor aid from Kenny, Jane, Luke, Mike and big aid from Bonnie.
Clementine with help from Luke saved the group from Carver - debatably Kenny helped to
Jane prevented Troy from being any harm to the group
Everyone tries to fight off the walkers as an attempt to protect themselves and Sarah
Clementine can try to save Sarita
Troy, doesnt apply. He was the one that kept them in the building to begin with and was an enemy, caused more problems to the group then saving them. All others either once again had Clem or Kenny, only acception is Jane killing Troy. Kenny kills Carver for the group. Kenny was the reason they got out in the first place and the only one other than Clem coming up with plans to escape.
Episode Four:
Mike can fend off the walkers whilst Kenny and Clementine argue
Nick and Luke try to find and save Sarah
Jane saves Rebecca, technically AJ and Clementine by escorting them out of the walker horde
Nick determinantly tried to find help to save Luke and Sarah
Jane and Clementine saved Luke and determinantly Sarah
Jane opens up the observation deck for the group's safety
Sarah determinantly warns the group of walkers and then Kenny and, determinantly, Mike fend them off
Jane, Luke, Mike, Clementine and Bonnie try to fend of the walkers at the observation deck whilst Kenny helps Rebecca give birth to AJ
Jane determinantly tries to save Sarah with a bit of help from Mike and Bonnie
Clementine shoots Rebecca as she reanimates, otherwise Bonnie or Kenny does it, likely saving AJ who was on her lap at the time
Kenny and Clem arguing is determinate. Kenny can fend off the walkers alone for the group. Kenny was the only one to be able to help Rebecca during birth. Clem is the one that actually gets Sarah out of the trailer. All others either had Kenny or Clem again, even more points to them.
Episode Five:
Clementine or Luke saves AJ from harm
Kenny, Luke and to a lesser extent Clementine, Bonnie and Mike fended off Vitali and Buricko
Kenny kills Buricko, likely saving the rest of the group
Jane kills Vitali, directly saving Kenny and likely the rest of the group
Everyone in the group, except determinantly Clementine, tries to save Arvo from Kenny
Clementine and Bonnie try to save Luke
Clementine can save Bonnie if she falls into the lake
Jane can save Clementine if she falls into the lake
Kenny and Jane save Clementine after she gets shot by Arvo
Jane takes care of AJ when the car crashes and they get lost in a blizzard full of walkers
Clem or Kenny in most. Jane is the one that started the fight, caused troubles for Clem. Kenny tries to save Clem and make her go to wellington. Kenny got her to wellington. Kenny is one of the big reasons they got out of the russain shoot out in the first place. Kenny saves Aj determinate by shooting Rebecca. Arvo was a burden anyways and causes harm to Clementine, Clem would have never been hurt if Kenny was allowed to keep restraints on him, Kenny still saved Arvos life getting him across the lake. Jane didnt take care of Aj, she put him in a car alone, it would have been better for everyone to not have done that until later. Though Kenny tried to save Aj and was the one worried when he vanished.
Through your list, counting them all Clem had the most then Kenny. Jane had a few points, the group got a few points, but even in your list Kenny and Clem still did the most. Now without leaving out alot of the other details Kenny would have had even more, I added a few but that wasnt all of them. Ofcourse the whole group did alot but Kenny and Clem did obviously the most, also Jane did alot even for only being in 3 episodes, still proves my point.
Let me just sum up the ones I remember:
Let the new group stay at the lodge, gave them food and protection (until Lukes group where the ones that caused the problem of leading Carver straight to Kennys lodge getting him, his group and Clem wrapped up in their mess, getting Walter killed and they where the ones who got Matthew killed)
Was the one coming up with plans to escape, which they did
Killed Carver
Saved Clem by giving his radio and getting beat up for it
Helped Rebecca give birth, kept watch on Aj the most
Watched over the area while the others talked
Got Arvo to lead them in the first place
Saved Arvo going over the ice
Killed many, many walkers through out the game for the group
Only one other than Clem to not get captured by Carver in the lodge, tries to kill Carver and save the group
Gets the car to start
Was the only one to not trust Arvo, which was right in the end of it
Only one other than Jane to save Clem and only one to not leave her behind
The whole wellington scenerio, got Clementine through the journey safe
Well, let's recount all the times people have saved people:
Episode One:
* Christa saved Clementine from Michelle and later on from … morethe scavengers
* Luke and Pete saved Clementine from walkers
* Clementine saves either Pete or Nick from walkers
Episode Two:
* Clementine keeps Sarah safe from Carver
* Clementine, Nick, Walter, Carlos etc. all helped fight off the walkers at the Ski Lodge
* Kenny and determinantly Clementine tried to save people from Carver
* Clementine can determinantly save Larry from Carver
Episode Three:
* Troy saves Clementine, Kenny and Mike from the walkers
* Kenny may have saved Clementine from Carver's punishment
* Clementine played the most significant role in the escape plan with minor aid from Kenny, Jane, Luke, Mike and big aid from Bonnie.
* Clementine with help from Luke saved the group from Carver - debatably Kenny helped to
* Jane prevented Troy from being any harm to the grou… [view original content]
Christa saved Clementine from Michelle and later on from the scavengers
Eh, I'd say that Omid saved Clementine from Michelle, even if he ended up dying doing it. By the time Christa showed up, Michelle was having a horrified reaction to killing him that causes her to essentially surrender herself when she could've easily just defended herself from retaliation or sneak away.
Clementine can determinantly save Larry from Carver
You mean Alvin.
You also forgot to include NIck/Pete proving a distraction for Clementine and Clementine sorta saving Luke.
Troy, doesnt apply.
I don't really see why not, since him showing up when he did is the main reason Clementine survivors being pinned down from that walker. Sure, you could argue that there was a slim chance of her saving herself, but it was just that--slim. Also, technically Carver is the one holding them captive.
Mike can fend off the walkers whilst Kenny and Clementine argue
He also saves Clementine/Bonnie from a walker in that office with the water.
Jane opens up the observation deck for the group's safety
Not sure if that really counts, but sure.
Clementine shoots Rebecca as she reanimates, otherwise Bonnie or Kenny does it, likely saving AJ who was on her lap at the time
No, actually Kenny always shoots her if Clementine doesn't; Bonnie just notices her if you stay silent. Lazy design, yo! One that I benefitted from in my rewrites, but still lazy.
Jane kills Vitali, directly saving Kenny and likely the rest of the group
Actually, Kenny kills him too: Jane just stabs him in the back of the neck and mutually distracts him long enough for Kenny to finish him.
Also, Kenny is sorta implied to be the one to kill Natasha(which I'm also mixed about, but moving on), but I wouldn't really count that since she wasn't really aggressive and in fact, tries to keep things from getting out of hand even before the group draws their weapons.
Another example that I wouldn't count on this list but will mention anyway was Arvo letting the group use his group's supplies. At the bare minimum, Clementine and AJ get something eat because of that and ironically enough, his truck technically helps to save Clementine after he shoots her.
Kenny is one of the big reasons they got out of the russain shoot out in the first place.
He's also determinately the reason it happens in the first place.
Let the new group stay at the lodge, gave them food and protection
Technically that was Walter.
Only one other than Clem to not get captured by Carver in the lodge, tries to kill Carver and save the group
Episode One:
Christa saved Clementine from Michelle and later on from the scavengers
Luke and Pete saved Clementine from walkers
C… morelementine saves either Pete or Nick from walkers
Kenny wasn't there, doesnt apply if we are counting how many times others saved eachother and not Kenny.
Episode Two:
Clementine keeps Sarah safe from Carver
Clementine, Nick, Walter, Carlos etc. all helped fight off the walkers at the Ski Lodge
Kenny and determinantly Clementine tried to save people from Carver
Clementine can determinantly save Larry from Carver
All of those where either had Clem or Kenny saving each other, once again proving my point. Lets not forget how Kenny was the only one that wasnt captured and had the only chance of saving the group with Clem, he can shoot Carver in the shoulder.
Episode Three:
Troy saves Clementine, Kenny and Mike from the walkers
Kenny may have saved Clementine from Carver's … [view original content]
Few notes/nitpicks here:
Christa saved Clementine from Michelle and later on from the scavengers
Eh, I'd say that Omid saved C… morelementine from Michelle, even if he ended up dying doing it. By the time Christa showed up, Michelle was having a horrified reaction to killing him that causes her to essentially surrender herself when she could've easily just defended herself from retaliation or sneak away.
Clementine can determinantly save Larry from Carver
You mean Alvin.
You also forgot to include NIck/Pete proving a distraction for Clementine and Clementine sorta saving Luke.
Troy, doesnt apply.
I don't really see why not, since him showing up when he did is the main reason Clementine survivors being pinned down from that walker. Sure, you could argue that there was a slim chance of her saving herself, but it was just that--slim. Also, technically Carver is the one holding them captive.
Mike can fen… [view original content]
Do you truly believe that Kenny would believe Jane if she said AJ was lying? Considering Jane already says prior to the fight "I didn't kill… more him" and Kenny responds with "Liar!" out of pure assumption.
I said this on another comment: In the past Jane showed how much she was willing to leave people behind to save her own ass and how she was not really comfortable with having the baby around ("what are you going to do with it?"). There was no way the baby could've been killed in an accident if she had him on her arms and kept walking from the walkers. She's an expert at surviving, do you really think she would've "accidentally" get AJ killed and somehow survive without a scratch? When I was first playing the game, I also didn't believe her.
You say this was her plan even before the car? Do you think it's completely unjustifiable considering (..)
The simple fact that she was scheming on how to get Kenny killed, just shows t… [view original content]
Good spotting! xD Sorry, I haven't played the games in a while and forgot allot of the additional details, also I have no idea why I typed Larry instead of Alvin lol
Few notes/nitpicks here:
Christa saved Clementine from Michelle and later on from the scavengers
Eh, I'd say that Omid saved C… morelementine from Michelle, even if he ended up dying doing it. By the time Christa showed up, Michelle was having a horrified reaction to killing him that causes her to essentially surrender herself when she could've easily just defended herself from retaliation or sneak away.
Clementine can determinantly save Larry from Carver
You mean Alvin.
You also forgot to include NIck/Pete proving a distraction for Clementine and Clementine sorta saving Luke.
Troy, doesnt apply.
I don't really see why not, since him showing up when he did is the main reason Clementine survivors being pinned down from that walker. Sure, you could argue that there was a slim chance of her saving herself, but it was just that--slim. Also, technically Carver is the one holding them captive.
Mike can fen… [view original content]
Good spotting! xD Sorry, I haven't played the games in a while and forgot allot of the additional details, also I have no idea why I typed Larry instead of Alvin lol
Comments
Oh hey, you're back! I missed your banter Flog, part of the reason why I went silent for a year.
I disagree though :P
That's one way of describing Flog's posts lol
I couldnt. There was just so many.
Is Kenny becoming a religion and Jane the anti-christ?
Good one
In s2 other than Clem Im pretty sure Kenny did do the most. The only times when someone else saved someone was when Kenny wasn't there, for example having to save Sarah.
Actually no Flog. You see what A lot of people especially Kenny haters keep failing to see is that he doesn't leave Lee to die because he was pissed that he didn't help him kill Larry, he was pissed because he felt that Lee put his own and everyone else's life in danger, putting them all at risk trying to save a man (who by the way most certainly wouldn't have tried and revived Lee if it was the other way around) who was clinically dead anyway and was possibly moments away from turning.
In the first 5 or so mins of the Fear the walking dead's episode "Do Not Disturb" is a brilliant and yet eerie coincidence to be compared to the meat locker scene. That fear episode opening proves to me that in a situation like that, as shitty as it may be, it is not worth putting others in danger trying to revive someone who is pretty much dead already.
You of course will never see it like i do which is fine so the convo ends here i guess.
Don't get me wrong, i didn't like what he did either and it was extreme but it happened just to show the players that our choices were different depending on what was chosen. It was badly arranged in my opinion. I think the writers wanted the players to hate Kenny. Not all of us fall into that trap though.
Oh yeah?? Except you forget (or more so choose to ignore) the fact that Lee seems to be fine with helping Larry throw Duck out to the walkers. Same thing, how is that any different? Im pretty sure I would hate someone and wouldn't want to help that person if they had wanted to do that to my son but because it's "Kenny" he is automatically the number 1 hate target of being a shit when it comes to that episode 4 ending right? Lol but yes let's all forget about how Lee can determinantely treat Kenny. Also i have always said that its funny because in the end, regardless of choice, Kenny still helps Lee and seems determined to find her after Lee gets back from Vernon's anyway. He even says "i hope you find her" and says he'll wait with the boat or words similar to that.
Is being pissed at someone a good enough reason to leave them to die?
You may say Kenny had good motivations to try to kill Larry, but Lee can have good motivations to try to save him as well. It's not a morally black/white choice.
He should not have left Clementine's guardian to die for the sake of this. By all means they could sit down and talk it out, but not helping someone out of spite? No thanks.
The writers have put Kenny in every single episode apart from one - I really don't think they want us to hate him.
Also I'm not sure it's fair to just label the bad things Kenny does as bad or weird writing, or part of some agenda of the writers. When we talk about 'Kenny' we are talking about the character as represented in the game. The fact that he left lee to die is just as valid a part of his characterisation as rescuing Christa.
I hate Larry more than Kenny, so I'm not sure what you're trying to imply.
In addition, when we talk about Kenny as a character in the game we need to consider all of his possible actions, not just his determinant ones. You can't say Kenny is a good person because determinantly he helps find clementine anymore than I can say he is a bad person because determinantly he doesn't. However what we can say is that, for him, the situation of saving a little girl wasn't a no brainer, and he based whether he should save the child off of his like/dislike of Lee, rather than saving Clementine because it's objectively the right thing to do.
If he really hoped we'd find her I do not understand why he wouldn't come, can't think of any good reason for him not to try to save her. He was being selfish - and that is a part of his characterisation.
He isn't perfect, and he makes mistakes. Like all characters in the game. That's what can make him an endearing character. But you seem reluctant to consider how he might have been anything less than a paragon of virtue in this scene.
Thanks that's kind!
I've been around, mainly lurking and occasionally commenting in Telltale talk. Didn't see much use in spending time in the TWD forum because the threads were either spam or repetitions of the exact same arguments people have been having for years, but have come back for season 3 discussion!
I said this to someone else but I'll just leave it here as well:
And I'll add: if you do those things for Duck (which should be the right thing to do) then Kenny will agree to help you regardless if you were an asshole to him all game long. Because you showed you are a good man that cares about the kids and does the right thing. Sure, maybe you need to remind him of the value of family before he agrees to help you, but the thing is that he does. Kenny is a very loyal guy. If you do something for him, he will repay you. If not, don't expect him to put himself in danger to help you. This has nothing to do with Clementine and if he cares about her or not (which he does, and he even says so). It's about a guy asking him for help when he did nothing for him and his family in the past.
I find it funny that Lee can be a complete asshole and terrible human being that doesn't care about a kid's safety just because he doesn't want to, but if it's Kenny not giving a shit about helping you because you didn't help him and his family, then he is a terrible person. Such double standards.
THANK YOU! Thank you so much for this @pinkytwist
I already said it was extreme and I didn't like it but technically he didn't "leave" him to die, he just let Lee take care of himself. I would definitely say had Lee been bitten as a result of him not helping then that would be considered ten times worse.
Except in a dangerous situation as they were in, a good motivation to try and save a life wouldn't matter shit if they had all ended up dead would it?
Again i feel you see that whole scenario completely differently and i said above why.
Wasn't implying anything. I used that scene as an example.
It's as @pinktwist said, can you blame him? If Lee doesn't care about him or his family then why should he care about Lee and his family (Clem)? You call that selfish? How about all the times Lee can be that way? But no no it's Kenny so he automatically goes to the top of the shitlist lol and that's the problem with the hate for him.
Anyway @pinkytwist saved me a job so i'll finish here.
@pinkytwist i wish you'd visit this forum more often!
No problem!
Though I'm specifically talking about when you got banned for a while. (That odd time when you kept on getting banned sporadically.)
Nope :x I don't like forcing myself to be completely one-sided just to ensure I have a friend in someone.
The problem is that he treats you negatively regardless of your past actions that aided him and his family so long as you try to save Larry or even stay out of it. I find it entirely heinous that you have to be completely one-sided as Lee in order to ensure Kenny helps you - so it doesn't matter that my Lee saved Duck, defended him from Larry, gave him a candy bar, gave him and Kenny rations and even agreed with him about the St. John's hiding something, he automatically is alright with my Lee dying just because he didn't want to kill someone before at least attempting to save him?
It's nice to know that I have to constantly do things for Kenny in order for him to repay past actions - it only takes one disagreement with him to let my Lee die without even trying to aid him despite the numerous other times when my Lee has been loyal to Kenny? What? I have to be his lap dog in order to get him to help me when I'm about to die?
The double standard only exists with people who play Lee as an asshole, even then, choosing to save Shawn and siding with Larry or being neutral are not entirely unjustifiable decisions considering that Lee has himself and others to look out for too, Kenny isn't the only one with friends and family.
Well, please present your evidence that proves this (assumptions don't count) and I won't be able to argue with you!
Do you truly believe that Kenny would believe Jane if she said AJ was lying? Considering Jane already says prior to the fight "I didn't kill him" and Kenny responds with "Liar!" out of pure assumption.
You say this was her plan even before the car? Do you think it's completely unjustifiable considering his attempts to become the group's dictator and his attempt to kill Arvo out of anger for Luke's death? Which, might I add, Arvo had no actual role in. The only reason she starts verbally attacking Kenny is because Kenny instigates the argument in the first place and Kenny had his own low-blows towards Jane in the argument.
No intentions to fight defensively? She was doing just that, Kenny was trying to kill her, do you think she should've just let him without putting up a fight?
Well, perhaps most players didn't know that AJ was alive but I was one of the players that realized what was going on in this situation, of course I didn't like it and tried to break up the fight.
By the way, I'm not sure how the Wellington ending shows that Kenny isn't 'lost' considering that the only reason he doesn't instigate anymore arguments is because he has no one opposing him anymore. He himself even states that he believes he is unfit to care for Clementine and AJ.
My Clementine was forced into relationships with characters and despite disagreeing with all of Kenny's actions and all the time he yelled at Clementine for having an opposing opinion, my Clementine shows more emotion for Kenny's death than she does for anyone else she's gotten close to. That feels like a static and forced relationship, making the game feel very biased towards Kenny. You can argue that Clementine is her own character but we, as the players, are meant to have a choice in the relationships she has with everyone but in the whole season the only relationship that permanently changes is her relationship with Bonnie, even then that is dependent on a single decision.
I'm not saying that Jane isn't manipulative and she, like everyone else, has her selfish moments but Kenny is just as selfish and ruthless.
More like the other way around.
Well, let's recount all the times people have saved people:
Episode One:
Episode Two:
Episode Three:
Episode Four:
Episode Five:
There are likely more minor moments I'm forgetting, time to replay the games
EDIT: Scrap what i said below because I want you to think about the 2 again and compare how long each scenario could last if given the chance because that was my original argument:
How long would Lilly have to be able to talk rationally and find out from the group who it was that stole? An hour? A day?
With Larry how long would they have had? A few seconds? A minute? Given the proof they saw of how fast David/Travis turned. Which is why i said what i did about having no time to take with Larry compared to Lilly's situation
I understand the situation was different and the time likely, not indefinitely, differed (again, assumptions don't count as evidence) however, the thing is that in both situations they tried to and in the case of Carley and Larry, they succeeded in killing the group member they saw as a threat.
If you want to take into account the possibility of Larry being dead and about turn - based off of the David and Travis scenario, in other words, Kenny's mind state at the time was the possibility of a threat then perhaps take into the account Lilly's mental state as well? Her father was killed only about a week ago, she feels completely alone with no one actually attempting to comfort her and there's a group member stealing supplies behind the entire group's back and almost everyone else thinks she's crazy because of it. Of course that is no justifying Lilly killing Carley or Doug, as Kenny is still not completely justified in killing Larry, out of the assumption that Carley and Ben were the thieves.
Let's talk of her emotional state - from what I read often in Jane vs Kenny debates, people like to point out that Kenny was a wreck at the time and that Jane knew this and often use that as a way to justify Kenny's immediate response, well then, I'd like to do the same for Lilly in this scenario - Carley knew that Lilly was evidently a wreck and emotionally unstable, yet she still antagonized her. Again, I'm not justifying what Lilly did but her actions are understandable given the situation and her mental and emotional state at the time.
Don't you dare try to act like you know me. I'm not sure what your problem is with me? Whenever you start arguments with me and/or whenever I show an opposing perspective, you like to heat things up and sometimes make it personal. Is this really necessary Dan? Tell me one time that I've ever made an assumption about you as a person or mocked you for having an opposing opinion to me? You know, you used to be one of the people I respected the most on these forums but now I'm not too sure.
I said this on another comment: In the past Jane showed how much she was willing to leave people behind to save her own ass and how she was not really comfortable with having the baby around ("what are you going to do with it?"). There was no way the baby could've been killed in an accident if she had him on her arms and kept walking from the walkers. She's an expert at surviving, do you really think she would've "accidentally" get AJ killed and somehow survive without a scratch? When I was first playing the game, I also didn't believe her.
The simple fact that she was scheming on how to get Kenny killed, just shows the kind of person she is. Kenny on the other hand, may have yelled at her too and said things not that nice, but the second they were about to crash, the first thing he asks is if she's ok. Kenny would never think to kill her or even get rid of her in that moment, even after she said all those cruel things about his family.
I recommend you to go watch that scene again carefully. The moment they step outside and Kenny is hurt (courtesy of Jane), he isn't doing anything and is slowly backing away. If Clem says to Jane to run or stop, Jane pushes her to the ground and says "not happening" and lunges at Kenny. Is that defensive to you? No. At that moment, she wanted to kill him. She tried to slash his face with the knife. If she wanted to truly stop the fight, she would've back down at that moment, tried to reason with him or when she was pinned to the ground, she could've admitted AJ was alive and stop the whole thing. She didn't. She had no intentions to stop the fight. On the contrary actually.
If most players realized AJ was probably alive and that whole thing was planned by Jane, they would probably not save her. Those playthroughs I watched that went with Jane, you could see they were obviously doubting their choice. Some tried to justify it by saying "Kenny was beyond saving I think", when he was not.
He isn't lost, he just needs help. In the end he still wants what is best for the kids and would do anything to keep them safe. The only reason he wasn't angry anymore was because there weren't any more stupid people doing stupid things and putting the group in danger (Luke and Jane fooling around, the group wanting to stay at the deck when they had no food and no protection against the cold, Jane wanting to go back to Howe's even though it could still be overrun by walkers and have survivors from Carver's group, people constantly defending that little shit Arvo when it was his fault they were in that position in the first place, and in the end he was right not to trust him since he almost kills Clem. Not to mention, stupid Bonnie and Mike were willing to let a baby and a kid starve just because they wanted to get away from Kenny with that little shit. And I could go on...). The game makes it look like it's Kenny against everyone, and to be honest I would be pretty pissed too if I was in a group where most people would make stupid decisions all the time. Kenny obviously has a temper and tends to get way too angry when he shouldn't, but I can't really blame him.
No. The reason is because Clem is not a monster. Like it or not, Kenny was there since the beginning, pretty much like Lee. He was a familiar face. He always tried to keep the kids safe no matter what, so it's only natural a little kid sees Kenny in a favorable light. Even if your Clem doesn't agree with Kenny, doesn't mean she doesn't know that, deep down, there's a good man there, which is why she feels devastated when killing him.
I honestly don't get why people think Kenny is selfish when everything he does is to keep the people he cares about safe. It doesn't mean his decisions are always good, but he's definitely not selfish.
Your issue seems to be with the Larry decision. I do agree that that decision has way too much impact on your relationship with Kenny. But it still makes sense to me because it's a crucial moment. Larry is dead at that time, he stopped breathing. People turn really fast. It was a do or die kind of decision for Kenny. His family was with the St. John's, he had no idea what they could be doing to them, in that moment he just wants to get out of that place alive to save them. When you are willing to put that at risk, to put his whole family at risk to TRY to revive a guy that would most definitely leave you both to die if the roles were reversed, he doesn't see you as a friend. But I still think it was lazy from Telltale's part to ONLY take into consideration that decision when it comes to the way Kenny treats you for the rest of the game.
I'll reply to this later when i finish work or get more time to type it down.
Sorry to offend you. I guess being around other forum members that hate my opinions is really getting to me these days. And sorry to hear that you no longer respect me. I can't help feeling strongly on topics such as this and sometimes i do find it hard to accept people's opposite opinions. Sometimes it comes across as though you are making it sound like i am wrong and you are right that's all
Like I said... nearly all of them where either clem saving people (of course being main character) or Kenny saving people. I didn't say other characters didn't save others because they did but nearly all other times the group saved each other it was when Kenny wasn't around for example all in episode one and most of episode 2. You didnt list alot of the other times kenny protected by the way, especially when kenny "sacrificed" his chance of survival to let clem go to wellington and not him. Let's not forget all the times kenny saved aj and how he was the only one that could help when Rebecca was giving birth, I could go on. Kenny was some what of the temperate leader of the new group and more than likely the strongest and the one that was OK with fighting making him other than clem the one that solved the most problems. Kenny was rarely saved by anyone else other than clem. Troy is not really an exception because troy was the one holding them captive without any weapons to begin with. Depending on how you act clem doesnt fight with kenny. Kenny fended off walkers alone to get everyome away is a choice. You literally proved my point Kenny and clem did the most suprisingly even when you didn't mention many of the other good things Kenmy did
Yeah maybe on here
Christa saved Clementine from Michelle and later on from the scavengers
Luke and Pete saved Clementine from walkers
Clementine saves either Pete or Nick from walkers
Kenny wasn't there, doesnt apply if we are counting how many times others saved eachother and not Kenny.
Clementine keeps Sarah safe from Carver
Clementine, Nick, Walter, Carlos etc. all helped fight off the walkers at the Ski Lodge
Kenny and determinantly Clementine tried to save people from Carver
Clementine can determinantly save Larry from Carver
All of those where either had Clem or Kenny saving each other, once again proving my point. Lets not forget how Kenny was the only one that wasnt captured and had the only chance of saving the group with Clem, he can shoot Carver in the shoulder.
Troy saves Clementine, Kenny and Mike from the walkers
Kenny may have saved Clementine from Carver's punishment
Clementine played the most significant role in the escape plan with minor aid from Kenny, Jane, Luke, Mike and big aid from Bonnie.
Clementine with help from Luke saved the group from Carver - debatably Kenny helped to
Jane prevented Troy from being any harm to the group
Everyone tries to fight off the walkers as an attempt to protect themselves and Sarah
Clementine can try to save Sarita
Troy, doesnt apply. He was the one that kept them in the building to begin with and was an enemy, caused more problems to the group then saving them. All others either once again had Clem or Kenny, only acception is Jane killing Troy. Kenny kills Carver for the group. Kenny was the reason they got out in the first place and the only one other than Clem coming up with plans to escape.
Mike can fend off the walkers whilst Kenny and Clementine argue
Nick and Luke try to find and save Sarah
Jane saves Rebecca, technically AJ and Clementine by escorting them out of the walker horde
Nick determinantly tried to find help to save Luke and Sarah
Jane and Clementine saved Luke and determinantly Sarah
Jane opens up the observation deck for the group's safety
Sarah determinantly warns the group of walkers and then Kenny and, determinantly, Mike fend them off
Jane, Luke, Mike, Clementine and Bonnie try to fend of the walkers at the observation deck whilst Kenny helps Rebecca give birth to AJ
Jane determinantly tries to save Sarah with a bit of help from Mike and Bonnie
Clementine shoots Rebecca as she reanimates, otherwise Bonnie or Kenny does it, likely saving AJ who was on her lap at the time
Kenny and Clem arguing is determinate. Kenny can fend off the walkers alone for the group. Kenny was the only one to be able to help Rebecca during birth. Clem is the one that actually gets Sarah out of the trailer. All others either had Kenny or Clem again, even more points to them.
Clementine or Luke saves AJ from harm
Kenny, Luke and to a lesser extent Clementine, Bonnie and Mike fended off Vitali and Buricko
Kenny kills Buricko, likely saving the rest of the group
Jane kills Vitali, directly saving Kenny and likely the rest of the group
Everyone in the group, except determinantly Clementine, tries to save Arvo from Kenny
Clementine and Bonnie try to save Luke
Clementine can save Bonnie if she falls into the lake
Jane can save Clementine if she falls into the lake
Kenny and Jane save Clementine after she gets shot by Arvo
Jane takes care of AJ when the car crashes and they get lost in a blizzard full of walkers
Clem or Kenny in most. Jane is the one that started the fight, caused troubles for Clem. Kenny tries to save Clem and make her go to wellington. Kenny got her to wellington. Kenny is one of the big reasons they got out of the russain shoot out in the first place. Kenny saves Aj determinate by shooting Rebecca. Arvo was a burden anyways and causes harm to Clementine, Clem would have never been hurt if Kenny was allowed to keep restraints on him, Kenny still saved Arvos life getting him across the lake. Jane didnt take care of Aj, she put him in a car alone, it would have been better for everyone to not have done that until later. Though Kenny tried to save Aj and was the one worried when he vanished.
Through your list, counting them all Clem had the most then Kenny. Jane had a few points, the group got a few points, but even in your list Kenny and Clem still did the most. Now without leaving out alot of the other details Kenny would have had even more, I added a few but that wasnt all of them. Ofcourse the whole group did alot but Kenny and Clem did obviously the most, also Jane did alot even for only being in 3 episodes, still proves my point.
Let me just sum up the ones I remember:
Let the new group stay at the lodge, gave them food and protection (until Lukes group where the ones that caused the problem of leading Carver straight to Kennys lodge getting him, his group and Clem wrapped up in their mess, getting Walter killed and they where the ones who got Matthew killed)
Was the one coming up with plans to escape, which they did
Killed Carver
Saved Clem by giving his radio and getting beat up for it
Helped Rebecca give birth, kept watch on Aj the most
Watched over the area while the others talked
Got Arvo to lead them in the first place
Saved Arvo going over the ice
Killed many, many walkers through out the game for the group
Only one other than Clem to not get captured by Carver in the lodge, tries to kill Carver and save the group
Gets the car to start
Was the only one to not trust Arvo, which was right in the end of it
Only one other than Jane to save Clem and only one to not leave her behind
The whole wellington scenerio, got Clementine through the journey safe
just the major ones
Few notes/nitpicks here:
Eh, I'd say that Omid saved Clementine from Michelle, even if he ended up dying doing it. By the time Christa showed up, Michelle was having a horrified reaction to killing him that causes her to essentially surrender herself when she could've easily just defended herself from retaliation or sneak away.
You mean Alvin.
You also forgot to include NIck/Pete proving a distraction for Clementine and Clementine sorta saving Luke.
I don't really see why not, since him showing up when he did is the main reason Clementine survivors being pinned down from that walker. Sure, you could argue that there was a slim chance of her saving herself, but it was just that--slim. Also, technically Carver is the one holding them captive.
He also saves Clementine/Bonnie from a walker in that office with the water.
Not sure if that really counts, but sure.
No, actually Kenny always shoots her if Clementine doesn't; Bonnie just notices her if you stay silent. Lazy design, yo! One that I benefitted from in my rewrites, but still lazy.
Actually, Kenny kills him too: Jane just stabs him in the back of the neck and mutually distracts him long enough for Kenny to finish him.
Also, Kenny is sorta implied to be the one to kill Natasha(which I'm also mixed about, but moving on), but I wouldn't really count that since she wasn't really aggressive and in fact, tries to keep things from getting out of hand even before the group draws their weapons.
Another example that I wouldn't count on this list but will mention anyway was Arvo letting the group use his group's supplies. At the bare minimum, Clementine and AJ get something eat because of that and ironically enough, his truck technically helps to save Clementine after he shoots her.
He's also determinately the reason it happens in the first place.
Technically that was Walter.
And Luke, who he apparently sent away.
Yes, him shooting Rebecca at the right time to save aj is another
Sadly, Kenny is becoming a ridiculous religion.
You mean he wasn't already?
Sadly? ¬‿¬
I thought Kenny is god was around for a while.
That's what I meant.
I know I was agreeing, seems like youtubes Twd fan base is the opposite of the forums fanbase
@pinkytwist
Great post again man! Naturally i agree with everything you said.
Not all of us fell into the same trap in hating Kenny like a lot of people here do.
Good spotting! xD Sorry, I haven't played the games in a while and forgot allot of the additional details, also I have no idea why I typed Larry instead of Alvin lol
I thought I mentioned that, but sure.
I have no idea either.