S2 was definitely rushed and thrown together IMO(maybe it was enough to keep the fans satisfied at the time)you can tell even just by the "next time on" screens, most of that stuff never happened liked it showed it would, even the locations were different. But look at s1's previews for the next episodes and they were almost always exact. Ok not such a big deal but you can tell more thought and detail went into those back in the day... and don't get me started on all the character conversations/interactions/clickables/hubs we had once upon a time...I really hope s3 will be different. Nothing against season 2 Clem but maybe being an eleven year old girl-compared to being an adult character like lee with a whole backstory(the murder, his family, his career) was a bad mistake. After all how much of a life could Clem have lived before the outbreak, she is (was) only 11!! I hope all the new s3 characters will be fleshed out enough for me to care if they die this time around. And playing a Javier to begin with looks like a good start, we already see a lot about his family and life just in the trailers...2 more days... fingers crossed
Yeah i think we get used to it similar to the way the characters do when they lose people. It gets easier in some way. I never cared for the… more s2 characters though due to the way i felt they were written. It's such a shame that the entire game felt rushed and there wasn't the same effort made into then characters as they did in season 1. We got decent background stories to pretty much every character in S1 but not in S2. Sure we got development of Jane and her sister and we knew that Nick and Luke had known each other for over 20 years, but that's about it right? What do we know about Carlos and Sarah? Apart from he's a doctor shielding his daughter from the world? Bonnie was a former drug addict, what else? And Mike? There just wasn't much to know about them. I would have liked to have known what they used to do job wise, or have them tell Clem a story about something that happened with them. Just something for us to be interested in. I hope they give us this with characters in Season 3
A lot of people don't hate AJ just because he's a toddler. People hate him because they see him as a faceless, draining burden that's been forced on Clementine despite having very little reason to take care of him outside of "It's the right thing to do." and expecting said child to be the unconditional guardian and provider for it's wellbeing (amongst other reasons).
I don't want to see him devoured by walkers or anything, but why should AJ be looked after over any other good, capable survivor?
A lot of people don't hate AJ just because he's a toddler. People hate him because they see him as a faceless, draining burden that's been f… moreorced on Clementine despite having very little reason to take care of him outside of "It's the right thing to do." and expecting said child to be the unconditional guardian and provider for it's wellbeing (amongst other reasons).
I don't want to see him devoured by walkers or anything, but why should AJ be looked after over any other good, capable survivor?
but by your logic why din't people hate clementine in season 1 I mean she was just this girl we found and din't have choice but to take care of hell she's partly the reason lee got bit.
A lot of people don't hate AJ just because he's a toddler. People hate him because they see him as a faceless, draining burden that's been f… moreorced on Clementine despite having very little reason to take care of him outside of "It's the right thing to do." and expecting said child to be the unconditional guardian and provider for it's wellbeing (amongst other reasons).
I don't want to see him devoured by walkers or anything, but why should AJ be looked after over any other good, capable survivor?
but by your logic why din't people hate clementine in season 1 I mean she was just this girl we found and din't have choice but to take care of hell she's partly the reason lee got bit.
Their gripes and complaints may just be needlessly aggressive concerns about a little girl raising a baby herself when she's barely into her doubledigits.
Their gripes and complaints may just be needlessly aggressive concerns about a little girl raising a baby herself when she's barely into her doubledigits.
Because Clementine had characteristics that made her likeable in the first episode alone outside of any moral obligation like AJ. She was useful (finding the cane which allowed Lee to save Carley or Doug), she was engaging (asking questions about Lee and just allowing for conversation), she was trusting (saying she knew Lee even if he outright told a lie to Herschel about their relationship) amongst so many other things.
And, maybe more valuably, she may have saved Lee's life by getting him the hammer to kill Sandra the babysitter. There was no emotional manipulation or pressure from any outside forces. It was a role that Lee accepted in game, whereas Clementine never even acknowledged that AJ was hers to take care of. And rightfully so - he shouldn't be.
Of course she got Lee bit - I never said Clementine was perfect. She was naïve and didn't want to accept the writing on the wall that her parents really were gone. And no doubt this is an underlying reason why she's so much darker in Season 2 than in Season 1. But really that's another point entirely. If you want to hate Clementine for getting Lee killed, I'd say that's perfectly valid. Clementine herself can state how much of an idiot she was and express immense guilt to the point where she wishes that maybe Lee shouldn't have saved her. You can share this view if you'd like. The main summary here being that throughout the first season, Clementine had so many qualities that made her endearing to players which resulted in the largely unanimous reaction to protect her at almost any cost.
I also want to bring up one more point about sympathy (albeit a sketchy one) and why it links back to why we only have one reason of moral obligation to take care of AJ. When we first meet Clementine, it's at the start of the apocalypse when everyone is more or less still normal. When we investigate Clementine's house and listen to the answering machine, most players almost immediately feel sorry for the family as it's revealed that her parents get swallowed up in the initial outbreak without a chance. Because of the nature of the message and the tone of their voice, we can inconclusively decide that they were good people and that their daughter has been left alone. We don't know that for sure, but we can definitely guess as much from the loving message there. Meaning that if we don't care of her there's a chance no one will.
The reason why this point of sympathy applies to Clementine and not so much AJ is because we actually do know AJ's origins and parents.
Nothing proves this point more than Rebecca and Alvin's "relationship" with Clementine. Let me ask: did either of these people do any good for Clementine? Any serious words of encouragement for her? Sympathies? Did they do anything practical in her favour at all in thankfulness for the protection and guidance that Clementine gave? Did they bother, without vagueness or deflection, to explain their situation and story to Clementine? Because short of Rebecca's 'apology' in calling for her death, I can't think of much. Yeah, Alvin can be 'glad' that Clementine's with them, but is that really all it would take to persuade someone into being so personally invested in their lives?
AJ's biological parents weren't the best towards her. Therefore, Clementine shouldn't have to bear the responsibility of carrying this child. We, as a player, and Clementine as a character should definitely not feel indebted or responsible for AJ after the shed scenario alone. And so we're back to the only reason that we take care of AJ for: "It's the right thing to do."
(I didn't mean for this to turn into an essay, but AJ's role in TWD is something that really antagonises me. Thanks to anyone who read the whole thing.)
but by your logic why din't people hate clementine in season 1 I mean she was just this girl we found and din't have choice but to take care of hell she's partly the reason lee got bit.
I actually really liked it thanks for helping me understand. clementine was much more of a able companion in season 1 so I can see why people hate Aj and not clementine. and I really respect the fact that you acknowledge clementine was partly to blame for what happend to lee.
Because Clementine had characteristics that made her likeable in the first episode alone outside of any moral obligation like AJ. She was us… moreeful (finding the cane which allowed Lee to save Carley or Doug), she was engaging (asking questions about Lee and just allowing for conversation), she was trusting (saying she knew Lee even if he outright told a lie to Herschel about their relationship) amongst so many other things.
And, maybe more valuably, she may have saved Lee's life by getting him the hammer to kill Sandra the babysitter. There was no emotional manipulation or pressure from any outside forces. It was a role that Lee accepted in game, whereas Clementine never even acknowledged that AJ was hers to take care of. And rightfully so - he shouldn't be.
Of course she got Lee bit - I never said Clementine was perfect. She was naïve and didn't want to accept the writing on the wall that her parents really were gone. And no doubt this is… [view original content]
I think Kenny and Jane will be dead when we begin S3. The inclusion of Clem's line "some people protected/helped me(not sure exact phrase?)... (what happened to them) what happens to everyone" imo is meant to make it clear they're dead and not coming back. I would prefer some fleshed out and satisfying flashbacks than them returning for a scene or two in S3.
I think Kenny and Jane will be dead when we begin S3. The inclusion of Clem's line "some people protected/helped me(not sure exact phrase?)... (what happened to them) what happens to everyone" imo is meant to make it clear they're dead and not coming back. I would prefer some fleshed out and satisfying flashbacks than them returning for a scene or two in S3.
We should not assume yet. That specific line "the same thing that happens to everyone" is a exact duplicate of a line she can say to Luke in season 2. It might as well not be in the game at all and just cut into the trailers for dramatic effect.
I think Kenny and Jane will be dead when we begin S3. The inclusion of Clem's line "some people protected/helped me(not sure exact phrase?).… more.. (what happened to them) what happens to everyone" imo is meant to make it clear they're dead and not coming back. I would prefer some fleshed out and satisfying flashbacks than them returning for a scene or two in S3.
Maybe so. I have a feeling they might have put that line in the trailer so that people wouldn't keep their expectations high of Jane or Kenny returning in a significant / recurrent way this season. People have spent two years theorising about the endings (and esp who you're with) and it's implications so much that if those characters don't return to the extent you expect them to there could be significant backlash. By putting that line in the trailer it's like they're sending the message loud and clear to... dampen those thoughts before the game as those characters are essentially gone and the story will be focusing on other things and new characters mainly.
But each to his own. We'll know when the game starts.
I'd be pleasantly surprised if anyone of the above theories turns out to be true.
We should not assume yet. That specific line "the same thing that happens to everyone" is a exact duplicate of a line she can say to Luke in season 2. It might as well not be in the game at all and just cut into the trailers for dramatic effect.
Another point that I would've included as a reason for disliking AJ's emergence in the story and a reason I felt quite strongly about, is that one of his only, if not only, purpose for existence is to set up and force the last minute Kenny and Jane rivalry, which had little to no development outside of the last episode of season 2 and was simply Telltale trying, and failing, to make up for the lack of actual choice in the game. He's only there to serve as a plot device for Jane to get Kenny to see red, as otherwise, there would've been no fight because they had no reason to be fighting in the first place. It's hard to care for him if he's only used to further a badly written conflict.
Because Clementine had characteristics that made her likeable in the first episode alone outside of any moral obligation like AJ. She was us… moreeful (finding the cane which allowed Lee to save Carley or Doug), she was engaging (asking questions about Lee and just allowing for conversation), she was trusting (saying she knew Lee even if he outright told a lie to Herschel about their relationship) amongst so many other things.
And, maybe more valuably, she may have saved Lee's life by getting him the hammer to kill Sandra the babysitter. There was no emotional manipulation or pressure from any outside forces. It was a role that Lee accepted in game, whereas Clementine never even acknowledged that AJ was hers to take care of. And rightfully so - he shouldn't be.
Of course she got Lee bit - I never said Clementine was perfect. She was naïve and didn't want to accept the writing on the wall that her parents really were gone. And no doubt this is… [view original content]
Nothing proves this point more than Rebecca and Alvin's "relationship" with Clementine. Let me ask: did either of these people do any good for Clementine? Any serious words of encouragement for her? Sympathies? Did they do anything practical in her favour at all in thankfulness for the protection and guidance that Clementine gave? Did they bother, without vagueness or deflection, to explain their situation and story to Clementine? Because short of Rebecca's 'apology' in calling for her death, I can't think of much. Yeah, Alvin can be 'glad' that Clementine's with them, but is that really all it would take to persuade someone into being so personally invested in their lives?
To be fair, both do express some amount of sympathy/concern for Clementine in their introduction, it's just that Rebecca can follow it up with wanting to put her down ASAP. Alvin can be persuaded to give her bandages(with a free juice box), later goes looking for her, Nick, and Pete alongside Luke, keeps an eye out for her when Johnny is looking for them, and will stay behind as a "distraction" in Carver's office so Clementine can get away. Rebecca also becomes pretty sentimental with her in Episode 2 and 4, owning up to her vindictive behavior, confiding in her that Alvin might not be her babydaddy, telling her to go look for Luke and Kenny when Carver is torturing Carlos, linking up with her when she gets separated from Kenny, Mike, and determinately Sarita in the herd, some nice conversations while at Parker's Run that won't specify because I'm lazy, and offering to let her hold AJ after he's born.
To get personal for a sec, Alvin was the only character I completely liked when I played the first episode since he clearly wanted to help Clementine but Rebecca was nippin' that in the bud: going to their window has you overhear a conversation about him not supporting her on matters like that before giving you the option to knock on the window. Telling him you know he wants to help because "he's nice" has him claim that he's not and yet petitioning him further has him not only get you some bandages but also throw in a juice box in case she's thirsty. That pretty much made him the only one who was completely benevolent at face value and him helping you despite knowing that he'd be in the doghouse for doing so proved that.
Though I did miss out on this exchange:
Clementine: I didn't do it alone.(or something to that effect)
Rebecca: What? Who helped you?
Alvin:(Looks guilty)
Rebecca: ...This is bullshit.
Because Clementine had characteristics that made her likeable in the first episode alone outside of any moral obligation like AJ. She was us… moreeful (finding the cane which allowed Lee to save Carley or Doug), she was engaging (asking questions about Lee and just allowing for conversation), she was trusting (saying she knew Lee even if he outright told a lie to Herschel about their relationship) amongst so many other things.
And, maybe more valuably, she may have saved Lee's life by getting him the hammer to kill Sandra the babysitter. There was no emotional manipulation or pressure from any outside forces. It was a role that Lee accepted in game, whereas Clementine never even acknowledged that AJ was hers to take care of. And rightfully so - he shouldn't be.
Of course she got Lee bit - I never said Clementine was perfect. She was naïve and didn't want to accept the writing on the wall that her parents really were gone. And no doubt this is… [view original content]
To be fair, both do express some amount of sympathy/concern for Clementine in their introduction, it's just that Rebecca can follow it up with wanting to put her down ASAP.
I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to here. You mean the conversations they have outside the cabin between the group when talking about what to do with Clementine? Because neither were sympathetic like Luke, Pete and even Carlos if you talk to him (who actually does acknowledge that Clementine might be scared but says they have to be sure).
Alvin does let slip he wants to help her, but when Rebecca notices he shuts up about it. So he's good hearted, but not that good hearted should Rebecca will it. And I'm not saying that Alvin's unreasonable in this, but you can't label him as benevolent when he will ignore mistreatment under certain conditions. Rebecca isn't sympathetic at all, the only lines that I can think of were "It won't do any good - you'll just be making it worse for the girl." And "You should have put her out of her misery right there." Both of which are only said in regards to the bite and the 'fact' that she would turn if left alive. She doesn't consider what Clementine is saying and can essentially be read as a sugar coated way of saying 'Kill her.'
Rebecca also becomes pretty sentimental with her in Episode 2 and 4 [...] confiding in her that Alvin might not be her babydaddy [...] some nice conversations while at Parker's Run that won't specify because I'm lazy.
None of these conversations are of any relevance to Clementine or even help to further the relationship between the two - they are all one-sided, dependant talks that principally uses Clementine as an emotional crutch for Rebecca and gives more than necessary baggage to a child who is no way in a position to relate to her issues which Rebecca humorously can acknowledge herself in a dialogue option. I can forgive her for this in Episode 4 considering she's hours away from having a child and is rightfully terrified, but I really can't see Rebecca's interactions throughout the season as anything other than draining in nature and is in no way beneficial to our protagonist.
Owning up to her vindictive behavior
I hope I'm not insulting you when I say I got a chuckle out of this. Rebecca is simultaneously the most vindictive and least apologetic character in the whole series. She gives one half assed apology on the road out of the cabin that's even less substantial than Nick's apology (who actually had a reason for his behaviour), blaming her response to Clementine primarily on hormones and her own insecurities about herself and the Carver situation - and never brings up the issue again. Not only does she sweep this vindictive example under the rug, but she then repeats this behaviour throughout the rest of the season to the point where it becomes a character trait for her, namely through her first interactions with the Ski-Lodge group in which she almost definitely didn't help matters: "Excuse me honey, but do I look like a fucking thief?" She is then said to have continued similar irrational lines with Alvin in Episode 3 where she states that she didn't treat him the best (or something). And again with Jane in Episode 4 where she becomes needlessly defensive about a genuine although callously asked question. She has Larry's temper mixed with Kenny's self-righteousness and it annoys me to no end.
Even Bonnie who, as a character, doesn't even call for anyone's death unlike Rebecca, shows so much more remorse for her actions towards the group that she took in Episode 2 and expresses these up until Episode 5. And, unlike Rebecca, she actually attempts to repent for these actions by setting the group free despite it having potentially fatal consequences.
Telling her to go look for Luke and Kenny when Carver is torturing Carlos [...] linking up with her when she gets separated from Kenny, Mike, and determinately Sarita in the herd.
Both of these are to the detriment of Clementine's safety and are in fact initiated by Rebecca's own self-centred desires for protection. She asks Clementine to find the others in the hope that they can do something so that Rebecca doesn't have to give up, which Alvin convinces her to do anyway. The second instance is done in opposition to the advice expressed by Jane where people should be spread out and not draw too much attention. By tying herself to Clementine, she endangered herself and Clementine by forcing an interaction between the two. This point in particular bothers me because Rebecca takes note herself that she hates how dependent she is on everyone in Episode 2. Yet this is contradicted massively by her actions here as she endangers others in situations that could have been helped had she taken charge of the situations herself.
Offering to let her hold AJ after he's born
All the while enforcing the belief that AJ is Clementine's responsibility by referring to her as "family", pressuring her to realise that this baby is hers to look after despite the fact that the player has no input or response to the reference and Clementine, not even knowing this person for longer than two weeks, is being expected to accept this. I really can't express my distaste for this woman in a manner that would probably not get me banned from the forums.
Alvin can be persuaded to give her bandages(with a free juice box)
I know this is supposed to be taken as positive points in favour of Alvin's caring attitude towards Clementine, and I recognise that this juice box is supposed to not only be a point of comical relief but a point of sweetness on the part of Alvin's character, but you're joking if my internal response if placed in Clementine's situation would be anything other than "Is this guy serious? I'm bleeding out and I get a juice box?" There's a reason the juice box meme is a thing.
Not to mention that to even convince Alvin to get you the bandages, you have to say one of three things:
I won't forget that you helped.
I'll do anything to help you.
Help me or I'll tell Rebecca.
He doesn't exactly help you unconditionally out of the bottomless goodness of his heart.
Later goes looking for her, Nick, and Pete alongside Luke
You think he did this out of friendship or express, individual concern for Clementine? I didn't read that all, I just saw it as because he and Luke were the most capable and suitable for the task of finding the missing group. Largely because Rebecca was pregnant and Carlos probably wanted to stay behind to look after Sarah. Both of which only left when they realised that Luke and Alvin themselves were probably in danger from walkers.
Keeps an eye out for her when Johnny is looking for them
You mean in that really awkward quick time event where Clementine should one hundred percent have been found had it taken place as it should? Sure.
And will stay behind as a "distraction" in Carver's office so Clementine can get away.
I highly doubt that he stayed behind chiefly to guarantee Clementine's escape and did so mostly because he was physically incapable of escaping through the skylight. He even mentions himself "I ain't fit to move, kid. I've run out of road." Hell, I don't even think he could escape through the skylight even if he wasn't beaten and bloody. He stayed behind because he couldn't do anything else. Buying time for Clementine, a person who has initiated an escape plan from the man he hates, was just an added bonus.
Telling him you know he wants to help because "he's nice" has him claim that he's not and yet petitioning him further has him not only get you some bandages but also throw in a juice box in case she's thirsty. That pretty much made him the only one who was completely benevolent at face value and him helping you despite knowing that he'd be in the doghouse for doing so proved that.
And that's the absolute pinnacle of their relationship, is it? This level of affection is all that is required not only to establish an unbreakable bond between characters but is also reason enough for Clementine to shoulder AJ for the foreseeable future and recognise Alvin as a "good man" which she can say to Rebecca and Kenny if I remember rightly. When AJ's old enough to understand, Clementine will recite to him the tale of his namesake father and the juice box. Awesome.
Nothing proves this point more than Rebecca and Alvin's "relationship" with Clementine. Let me ask: did either of these people do any good f… moreor Clementine? Any serious words of encouragement for her? Sympathies? Did they do anything practical in her favour at all in thankfulness for the protection and guidance that Clementine gave? Did they bother, without vagueness or deflection, to explain their situation and story to Clementine? Because short of Rebecca's 'apology' in calling for her death, I can't think of much. Yeah, Alvin can be 'glad' that Clementine's with them, but is that really all it would take to persuade someone into being so personally invested in their lives?
To be fair, both do express some amount of sympathy/concern for Clementine in their introduction, it's just that Rebecca can follow it up with wanting to put her down ASAP. Alvin can be persuaded to give her bandages(with a free juice box), later goes looking for h… [view original content]
Rebecca isn't sympathetic at all, the only lines that I can think of were "It won't do any good - you'll just be making it worse for the girl." And "You should have put her out of her misery right there." Both of which are only said in regards to the bite and the 'fact' that she would turn if left alive. She doesn't consider what Clementine is saying and can essentially be read as a sugar coated way of saying 'Kill her.'
Yeah, good point. Those were indeed the lines.
None of these conversations are of any relevance to Clementine or even help to further the relationship between the two - they are all one-sided, dependant talks that principally uses Clementine as an emotional crutch for Rebecca and gives more than necessary baggage to a child who is no way in a position to relate to her issues which Rebecca humorously can acknowledge herself in a dialogue option. I can forgive her for this in Episode 4 considering she's hours away from having a child and is rightfully terrified, but I really can't see Rebecca's interactions throughout the season as anything other than draining in nature and is in no way beneficial to our protagonist.
Eh, I guess. I'm gonna earn some bad medal for doing this, but it is a reason people say they like Jane at least: she confides in Clementine, the PC, about her issues. Honestly, what could she do to benefit Clementine beyond saving her and comforting her over something?
Rebecca is simultaneously the most vindictive and least apologetic character in the whole series.
Oh, I'm sorry but I can't disagree with you more on that: I'm pretty sure Jane's more than earned that title given the shit she's responsible for and gets away with.
Not only does she sweep this vindictive example under the rug, but she then repeats this behaviour throughout the rest of the season to the point where it becomes a character trait for her, namely through her first interactions with the Ski-Lodge group in which she almost definitely didn't help matters: "Excuse me honey, but do I look like a fucking thief?"
Wait, so the problem isn't that she's mean to Clementine so much that she's aggressive at all? I thought your point was that she made no attempt to reach out to Clementine or something?
Even Bonnie who, as a character, doesn't even call for anyone's death unlike Rebecca, shows so much more remorse for her actions towards the group that she took in Episode 2 and expresses these up until Episode 5. And, unlike Rebecca, she actually attempts to repent for these actions by setting the group free despite it having potentially fatal consequences.
That much, I agree on. Still, kinda sending mixed messages about a character having to do something major(like saving her life) in order to make up for a mistake or wrongdoing instead of a simple apology and attempting to do differently from then on.
Honestly, that whole "not allowed to do anything redeeming/cool" thing is a problem with the Cabin Group as a whole and I meant to write a critique about that a while back.
I know this is supposed to be taken as positive points in favour of Alvin's caring attitude towards Clementine, and I recognise that this juice box is supposed to not only be a point of comical relief but a point of sweetness on the part of Alvin's character, but you're joking if my internal response if placed in Clementine's situation would be anything other than "Is this guy serious? I'm bleeding out and I get a juice box?" There's a reason the juice box meme is a thing.
You know, I never thought about it like that. That's actually really funny now that you did.
Not to mention that to even convince Alvin to get you the bandages, you have to say one of three things:
I won't forget that you helped.
I'll do anything to help you.
Help me or I'll tell Rebecca.
He doesn't exactly help you unconditionally out of the bottomless goodness of his heart.
In his defense, you are basically asking him to go against his group, much less his wife, in order to help you. Unlike most of the others, his plight and stance on the topic is completely understandable. But to each their own, I guess.
Yet this is contradicted massively by her actions here as she endangers others in situations that could have been helped had she taken charge of the situations herself.
Again, so does Jane. Honestly, that's probably another example of Jane being composite/substitute character, but that's a topic for another day.
You think he did this out of friendship or express, individual concern for Clementine? I didn't read that all, I just saw it as because he and Luke were the most capable and suitable for the task of finding the missing group. Largely because Rebecca was pregnant and Carlos probably wanted to stay behind to look after Sarah. Both of which only left when they realised that Luke and Alvin themselves were probably in danger from walkers.
Okay dude, I starting to think you're being a little too particular about the things people do for each other. The point is he and Luke were looking for her just as much as the other two, whether because she happened to be there or not, it's a decent thing to do.
I highly doubt that he stayed behind chiefly to guarantee Clementine's escape and did so mostly because he was physically incapable of escaping through the skylight. He even mentions himself "I ain't fit to move, kid. I've run out of road." Hell, I don't even think he could escape through the skylight even if he wasn't beaten and bloody. He stayed behind because he couldn't do anything else. Buying time for Clementine, a person who has initiated an escape plan from the man he hates, was just an added bonus.
To be fair, I'm pretty sure he only mentions this after he states his intentions to get payback. Which arguably isn't any better, but it's also typically action movie dialogue to convince the person you want to get away to leave the dangerous area without you.
And that's the absolute pinnacle of their relationship, is it? This level of affection is all that is required not only to establish an unbreakable bond between characters but is also reason enough for Clementine to shoulder AJ for the foreseeable future and recognise Alvin as a "good man" which she can say to Rebecca and Kenny if I remember rightly. When AJ's old enough to understand, Clementine will recite to him the tale of his namesake father and the juice box. Awesome.
To be fair, Alvin is one of those who didn't really get much screentime to begin with--the fact that he's essentially a satellite character doesn't help. And, to be blunt, I think the difference between us here is that you seem to be pretty high maintenance while I try my hardest to abide by what I feel is "right"(a combination of personal beliefs and what Season 1 stood for), which in this case means being forgiving of most people's flaws. One of the supposed messages of this Season is that the world is a messed up place now, with people either getting with the program and doing what they can at any cost, taking advantage of others by being the "strongest", or suffering at the hands of the majority. So in the role of Clementine, when I come across souls like Luke, Alvin, Sarah, Sarita, and Bonnie, I try to appreciate that they're trying to be nice or at least decent people in spite of that; heck, I even try to put up with those who aren't as easily to like, such as Kenny, Rebecca, Nick, Jane, and Arvo. And while there are several outliers and exceptions(Save Lots Bandits, Justin, Carver, Jane), that's just the way I roll in part because that's the way I believe Clementine would/should roll.
To be fair, both do express some amount of sympathy/concern for Clementine in their introduction, it's just that Rebecca can follow it up wi… moreth wanting to put her down ASAP.
I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to here. You mean the conversations they have outside the cabin between the group when talking about what to do with Clementine? Because neither were sympathetic like Luke, Pete and even Carlos if you talk to him (who actually does acknowledge that Clementine might be scared but says they have to be sure).
Alvin does let slip he wants to help her, but when Rebecca notices he shuts up about it. So he's good hearted, but not that good hearted should Rebecca will it. And I'm not saying that Alvin's unreasonable in this, but you can't label him as benevolent when he will ignore mistreatment under certain conditions. Rebecca isn't sympathetic at all, the only lines that I can think of were "It won't do any good - you'll just… [view original content]
Still holding out hope that Kenny/Jane are with AJ, captured by The New Frontier. They can make determinant appearances throughout the season. Once in the premiere obviously, maybe once in episode three or four, and then in the finale. I'd love Telltale for this. It shows they really put in effort to please the fans.
Honestly, what could she do to benefit Clementine beyond saving her and comforting her over something?
Hell, what can anyone do to benefit Clementine in Season 2? She's hyper-competent by Episode 4 anyway. I don't know. Perhaps taken an interest in Clementine? I'm actually astonished that throughout the entirety of the season, the only two people to actually bother to inquire about her story were Luke and Jane (and Walter to an extent, but only in relation to Kenny). Not that I'm saying she should recite the same Lee sob story every time which would undoubtedly get old fast, but even just an inkling that Rebecca actually cared about Clementine as a person rather than seeing her as Hit-Girl or something. She could also have explained the proper truth about the relationship between their group and Carver's, as the entire group (Carlos at the cabin and Luke on the way to the bridge) seemed to obscure the details vaguely and deliberately to Clementine to the point where it was starting to get suspicious. This would have been a moment of 'confiding' that I would actually be grateful for, as it would give us and Clementine the truth about the whole situation. Any difficulty on reciting these reasons to Clementine on the part of Rebecca because of Carver's terrible relationship with Rebecca would've probably been enough for me to actually empathise with her.
I never expected Rebecca to be in a position to save Clementine's life regardless. She had her pregnancy. If she did, then great, but I never once would have guessed or expected that as a form of redemption for the initial meeting between the two.
I'm pretty sure Jane's more than earned that title given the shit she's responsible for and gets away with.
I'd put her in for second place honestly. Quantitatively, yeah she probably brings in more shit than Rebecca did, but there's a reason why I promote Rebecca to first place on that. Specifically because Jane actually does bring something to the table. She brings in new ideas and actually contributes to building a relationship with Clementine regardless of how ham fisted it was - showing the initiative in making a plan for how the group could get away from Carver, introducing the idea that Clementine could survive on her own without others holding her down, giving general survival tips and presenting herself as someone who was actually capable immediately put her ahead of so many characters that had been around for multiple episodes.
Jane is of course far, far from perfect. Her biggest issues with me personally was her "entanglement" with Luke and her denial in her role of the entire ordeal with Arvo were things that particularly irked me. But my point being that despite the fact that Jane was such a bipolar character, both personality wise and in a meta "positives vs negatives" light, she seemed to offer something redeemable.
Wait, so the problem isn't that she's mean to Clementine so much that she's aggressive at all? I thought your point was that she made no attempt to reach out to Clementine or something?
Both are problems that I believe contradict what the writers actually wanted for us to see in Rebecca.
The way I see it with the entire season in full scope is that, by the end, we're supposed to remember Rebecca as a determined, concerning but flawed (as in her own incapability to handle the pressure of becoming a mother in combination with daddy issues and her own self-realisation of how reliant she is on everyone) mother who is fiercely protective over her own group. This justifies her aggressive responses towards potentially hostile outsiders such as Clementine, the Ski-Lodge and Jane. But in the end, this is all dwarfed by her care for those that are a part of her group, even newcomers such as Clementine who she later relates to as family in addition to her wants as a mother to raise and protect a child against all odds and her heartbreak when she hears about the deaths of those around her like those of Nick and/or Sarah. This, in the end, makes us sympathise with her as she turns and dies beyond her own power and leads to a tragic beginning for the life of AJ.
And then, like with most things in Season 2, it falls apart when you look at it critically. However, the infamous 180 in personality makes it impossible for any player to like her regardless of how critically they're playing the game. Why? Because the turning point from her initial meeting doesn't even exist. Her apology on the road was so minor and forgettable that players who aren't even paying attention would just forget about it or not treat it with much thought, and anyone who is paying attention would turn their heads and wonder what her game is since it was so random and contradictory to her established character with very little input being required to push her into the opposite direction. This makes any relationship attempted between the two seem false and strange. And finally, her defensiveness towards those that are a potential danger to her group only end up needlessly escalating the situation despite the fact that she herself is in no position or reason to rise to these conflicts. Especially those between the Ski-Lodge and Jane. So rather than presenting herself as someone who is protective of the group, she just mindlessly endangers the lives of those that she herself relies on.
Still, kinda sending mixed messages about a character having to do something major(like saving her life) in order to make up for a mistake or wrongdoing instead of a simple apology and attempting to do differently from then on.
Don't misinterpret me though, I'm not asking that redemption and desires for forgiveness be expressed exclusively through the act of saving lives. What I really want is a reasonable reaction from the perpetuators as a result of their wrongdoings in accordance with the specific act they've done, rather than having them do one set thing to earn my forgiveness.
Nick's case perfectly fits my view here. He was one of the main callers for Clementine's death and, at the time, I saw him as someone who was just kind of a dick who refused to accept an alternate possibility and just wanted Clementine dead. When he expressed his apology (with the direction of Luke) it was not only genuine and heartfelt, but actually had reasoning - which is further revealed by Nick and Luke's own recital of the story of his mom. By the time that we get to Pete's story the next day as to how clumsy he is with guns, which explained the random shot on her, I basically considered the whole thing with him shelved.
Then we have Bonnie's case, who I didn't even place much blame on for her actions at the ski-lodge. She was just another piece in the puzzle. If it wasn't her who would find the Cabin Group, then it would be someone else. I'm not going to hate her strictly for staying loyal to her group, especially when the group I've been with haven't exactly been saints themselves. And the deaths themselves were only a result from Carver's and Kenny's actions. And yet Bonnie blames herself for what happened there, believing that she could have resolved the entire scenario peacefully. Yeah, I thought she was a bit bone headed for thinking that she could single out all of Carver's extreme actions as a result of 'stress' or something, but her reaction to the case of Reggie turned that thought on its head. So when she took it upon herself to set the entire group free, I thought she went above and beyond the call for redemption to the point where I actually felt kinda guilty for not trusting her about Luke.
And then there's Rebecca, someone who can, with the right dialogue option, straight up reach for the rifle so she can 'get it over with' so to speak, almost becoming the sole reason for Clementine's murder. She then continues through the night to antagonise Clementine for stealing and for not taking the initiative to leave, of course not offering a slight word of relief to the fact that she wasn't bitten. And with a simple apology (which is a fairly accurate adjective of her apology honestly), I'm not only expected to accept that, but also sympathise and support this person despite almost murdering an innocent just two days prior? I'm sorry, but I'd be lying to you if I said I'd be comfortable with that in reality and I think I'd be calling out anyone who said they would be, regardless of a post-apocalyptic ruleset or not.
The point is he and Luke were looking for her just as much as the other two, whether because she happened to be there or not, it's a decent thing to do.
Oh! In which case, I think I misunderstood your point. I thought you meant that Alvin specifically volunteered to find Clementine because he cared about her above Pete and Nick, which is stupid. Of course he should care for finding the entire group including Clementine. Why not?
And, to be blunt, I think the difference between us here is that you seem to be pretty high maintenance while I try my hardest to abide by what I feel is "right"(a combination of personal beliefs and what Season 1 stood for), which in this case means being forgiving of most people's flaws.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by 'high maintenance' in this context, especially considering I'd describe myself close to what you describe yourself. I don't want this to get confused though - I want to help and forgive people even in spite of their flaws. But more often than not, this means that they either have to make up for said flaws in their own way or be self-aware to the fact. There's no point in forgiving someone for being evil if they're just going to go on and do more evil.
My issue with Alvin and Rebecca, ultimately, stems from my view that neither present any tangible reason for a personal investment on the part of Clementine or, debatably, us as the player. They recognise their flaws, but do little to act on them or work against them while exhibiting so few positives - which you can argue is a lack of screentime, but I still have to bring it up as it's all we have. To finalise, they drop unto the player and Clementine one of the biggest responsibilities a person can hold while clearly expecting no objections to it. All as a reward for being the emotional buffer through the majority of both of their short lived 'friendships.' As a result, am I really so cold, so unreasonable, for wanting to say "No" to that?
Rebecca isn't sympathetic at all, the only lines that I can think of were "It won't do any good - you'll just be making it worse for the gir… morel." And "You should have put her out of her misery right there." Both of which are only said in regards to the bite and the 'fact' that she would turn if left alive. She doesn't consider what Clementine is saying and can essentially be read as a sugar coated way of saying 'Kill her.'
Yeah, good point. Those were indeed the lines.
None of these conversations are of any relevance to Clementine or even help to further the relationship between the two - they are all one-sided, dependant talks that principally uses Clementine as an emotional crutch for Rebecca and gives more than necessary baggage to a child who is no way in a position to relate to her issues which Rebecca humorously can acknowledge herself in a dialogue option. I can forgive her for this in Episode 4 considering she's hours away… [view original content]
I don't know. Perhaps taken an interest in Clementine? I'm actually astonished that throughout the entirety of the season, the only two people to actually bother to inquire about her story were Luke and Jane (and Walter to an extent, but only in relation to Kenny).
even just an inkling that Rebecca actually cared about Clementine as a person
True. One of the bigger problems of the Season is that Clementine doesn’t really have much of a consistent personal arc and having characters like Rebecca, Kenny, and especially Sarah ask her about herself and how she feels at any given time(and vice versa) would’ve gone a long way to fixing that.
One thing someone (I think it was BadassMichonne) pointed out is that Rebecca was a chance for Clementine to confront any lingering sentiments she might be harboring regarding Christa and the fate of O.J. Indeed, it is worth noting that when AJ appears to be stillborn in Kenny’s hands, one of Clementine’s possible lines is “Not again….”.
She could also have explained the proper truth about the relationship between their group and Carver's, as the entire group (Carlos at the cabin and Luke on the way to the bridge) seemed to obscure the details vaguely and deliberately to Clementine to the point where it was starting to get suspicious. This would have been a moment of 'confiding' that I would actually be grateful for, as it would give us and Clementine the truth about the whole situation. Any difficulty on reciting these reasons to Clementine on the part of Rebecca because of Carver's terrible relationship with Rebecca would've probably been enough for me to actually empathise with her.
From what I gathered regarding Rebecca’s backstory, it’s indirectly implied that Alvin, Carver, and George were all good friends with each other, which may be what got Rebecca a job as the public announcements speaker. For whatever reason it was, Carver and Rebecca apparently got a little to close and, whether consensual or not, it went far enough that Carver became obsessed and Rebecca doubts AJ’s parentage, hence her claiming that “he has trouble letting go.” Of course, Alvin got together with Luke and Carlos sometime later and the three made a plan to get Rebecca, Sarah, and the Randall family out of there together, presumably to spare them and the baby from living under Carver’s increasingly despotic rule.
I'd put her in for second place honestly. Quantitatively, yeah she probably brings in more shit than Rebecca did, but there's a reason why I promote Rebecca to first place on that. Specifically because Jane actually does bring something to the table. She brings in new ideas and actually contributes to building a relationship with Clementine regardless of how ham fisted it was - showing the initiative in making a plan for how the group could get away from Carver, introducing the idea that Clementine could survive on her own without others holding her down, giving general survival tips and presenting herself as someone who was actually capable immediately put her ahead of so many characters that had been around for multiple episodes.
And that’s as great an answer as any!
Jane is of course far, far from perfect. Her biggest issues with me personally was her "entanglement" with Luke and her denial in her role of the entire ordeal with Arvo were things that particularly irked me. But my point being that despite the fact that Jane was such a bipolar character, both personality wise and in a meta "positives vs negatives" light, she seemed to offer something redeemable.
Yeah, I guess so. Though I’d eskew the Luke thing in favor of the entirety of her relationship/interaction with Sarah and how much character development she gets from that (a.i. Practically none, despite the obvious setup) but I’ve acknowledged that is sloppy writing decisions and misaimed pandering more than anything else. Still near impossible to ignore/forgive, though.
And then, like with most things in Season 2, it falls apart when you look at it critically. However, the infamous 180 in personality makes it impossible for any player to like her regardless of how critically they're playing the game. Why? Because the turning point from her initial meeting doesn't even exist. Her apology on the road was so minor and forgettable that players who aren't even paying attention would just forget about it or not treat it with much thought, and anyone who is paying attention would turn their heads and wonder what her game is since it was so random and contradictory to her established character with very little input being required to push her into the opposite direction. This makes any relationship attempted between the two seem false and strange. And finally, her defensiveness towards those that are a potential danger to her group only end up needlessly escalating the situation despite the fact that she herself is in no position or reason to rise to these conflicts. Especially those between the Ski-Lodge and Jane. So rather than presenting herself as someone who is protective of the group, she just mindlessly endangers the lives of those that she herself relies on.
Yeeeah…as I said, I’m a pretty forgiving guy for the most part(heck, look some of the characters I consider favorites) but even I consider Rebecca to be easily the worst member of the Cabin Group. And what this even more prevalent is the fact that, like Nick and Sarah, she had a clear story arc set up for her in the first episode and unlike them, she unambiguously sees it through till the end. The problems with her is the ridiculously quick turnaround like you said, which wastes a perfectly good dynamic for the Season, and the fact that her arc is a bit by the numbers, not to mention the premise of her initial dilemma is shallow and borderline offensive. I even included her on my most recent dislike list purely because I can look at how her character is portrayed throughout the Season, along with how inspirational it could be, and find myself asking “Why didn’t this work?!”
What I really want is a reasonable reaction from the perpetuators as a result of their wrongdoings in accordance with the specific act they've done, rather than having them do one set thing to earn my forgiveness.
That is an interesting way to put it, actually.
Nick's case perfectly fits my view here.
Yeah, well I still hesitate to call him a favorite, I do appreciate Nick for being a character that feels like he belongs in Season 1 writing.
Then we have Bonnie's case, who I didn't even place much blame on for her actions at the ski-lodge.
Yeah, because Kenny was at his most unlikable, Jane was pretty unsympathetic, and Arvo was technically an anti-villain trying to make amends, Bonnie was easily the most sympathetic character outside of Luke, Clementine, and AJ precisely because she was clearly a good person who was in a bad outfit for a while before successfully leaving that mess behind.
to the point where I actually felt kinda guilty for not trusting her about Luke.
Wait, what?
And then there's Rebecca, someone who can, with the right dialogue option, straight up reach for the rifle so she can 'get it over with' so to speak, almost becoming the sole reason for Clementine's murder. She then continues through the night to antagonise Clementine for stealing and for not taking the initiative to leave, of course not offering a slight word of relief to the fact that she wasn't bitten. And with a simple apology (which is a fairly accurate adjective of her apology honestly), I'm not only expected to accept that, but also sympathise and support this person despite almost murdering an innocent just two days prior? I'm sorry, but I'd be lying to you if I said I'd be comfortable with that in reality and I think I'd be calling out anyone who said they would be, regardless of a post-apocalyptic ruleset or not.
Yeah, when I found out that can happen, I was like “Wow, what a bitch!” Okay, I totally understand all of that now that you’ve brought that into context as well.
Oh! In which case, I think I misunderstood your point. I thought you meant that Alvin specifically volunteered to find Clementine because he cared about her above Pete and Nick, which is stupid. Of course he should care for finding the entire group including Clementine. Why not?
Yeah, it’s cool. Honestly, it’d be a little silly if that was his reasoning.
Alvin: Oh Clementine! So glad I found ya’, kid.
Nick: And what the hell am I then, chopped liver?
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by 'high maintenance' in this context, especially considering I'd describe myself close to what you describe yourself. I don't want this to get confused though - I want to help and forgive people even in spite of their flaws. But more often than not, this means that they either have to make up for said flaws in their own way or be self-aware to the fact. There's no point in forgiving someone for being evil if they're just going to go on and do more evil.
No, like you said earlier, I think that was just a case of us misunderstanding each other. I was sorta misconstruing your points as “Bitch, you wanted to shoot me! I better get a cake outta this!”
My issue with Alvin and Rebecca, ultimately, stems from my view that neither present any tangible reason for a personal investment on the part of Clementine or, debatably, us as the player.They recognise their flaws, but do little to act on them or work against them while exhibiting so few positives - which you can argue is a lack of screentime, but I still have to bring it up as it's all we have. To finalise, they drop unto the player and Clementine one of the biggest responsibilities a person can hold while clearly expecting no objections to it. All as a reward for being the emotional buffer through the majority of both of their short lived 'friendships.' As a result, am I really so cold, so unreasonable, for wanting to say "No" to that?
Honestly, what could she do to benefit Clementine beyond saving her and comforting her over something?
Hell, what can anyone do to b… moreenefit Clementine in Season 2? She's hyper-competent by Episode 4 anyway. I don't know. Perhaps taken an interest in Clementine? I'm actually astonished that throughout the entirety of the season, the only two people to actually bother to inquire about her story were Luke and Jane (and Walter to an extent, but only in relation to Kenny). Not that I'm saying she should recite the same Lee sob story every time which would undoubtedly get old fast, but even just an inkling that Rebecca actually cared about Clementine as a person rather than seeing her as Hit-Girl or something. She could also have explained the proper truth about the relationship between their group and Carver's, as the entire group (Carlos at the cabin and Luke on the way to the bridge) seemed to obscure the details vaguely and deliberately … [view original content]
Comments
S2 was definitely rushed and thrown together IMO(maybe it was enough to keep the fans satisfied at the time)you can tell even just by the "next time on" screens, most of that stuff never happened liked it showed it would, even the locations were different. But look at s1's previews for the next episodes and they were almost always exact. Ok not such a big deal but you can tell more thought and detail went into those back in the day... and don't get me started on all the character conversations/interactions/clickables/hubs we had once upon a time...I really hope s3 will be different. Nothing against season 2 Clem but maybe being an eleven year old girl-compared to being an adult character like lee with a whole backstory(the murder, his family, his career) was a bad mistake. After all how much of a life could Clem have lived before the outbreak, she is (was) only 11!! I hope all the new s3 characters will be fleshed out enough for me to care if they die this time around. And playing a Javier to begin with looks like a good start, we already see a lot about his family and life just in the trailers...2 more days... fingers crossed
Um, no, we hate a pixelated, fictional freaking toddler.
Big difference, mate.
A lot of people don't hate AJ just because he's a toddler. People hate him because they see him as a faceless, draining burden that's been forced on Clementine despite having very little reason to take care of him outside of "It's the right thing to do." and expecting said child to be the unconditional guardian and provider for it's wellbeing (amongst other reasons).
I don't want to see him devoured by walkers or anything, but why should AJ be looked after over any other good, capable survivor?
There's also the fact that his introduction involved and led to some pretty dumb things, along with Jane.
Would be cool if Jane or Kenny is with the bad guys.
I had a similar thought a while back.
i see the difference mate, what im saying is that its still a little fucked up.
but by your logic why din't people hate clementine in season 1 I mean she was just this girl we found and din't have choice but to take care of hell she's partly the reason lee got bit.
Not to justify anything either way, but Lee is an adult while Clementine, badass as she may seem, was still kid.
whats your point?
Their gripes and complaints may just be needlessly aggressive concerns about a little girl raising a baby herself when she's barely into her doubledigits.
yeah I see your point now.
Because Clementine had characteristics that made her likeable in the first episode alone outside of any moral obligation like AJ. She was useful (finding the cane which allowed Lee to save Carley or Doug), she was engaging (asking questions about Lee and just allowing for conversation), she was trusting (saying she knew Lee even if he outright told a lie to Herschel about their relationship) amongst so many other things.
And, maybe more valuably, she may have saved Lee's life by getting him the hammer to kill Sandra the babysitter. There was no emotional manipulation or pressure from any outside forces. It was a role that Lee accepted in game, whereas Clementine never even acknowledged that AJ was hers to take care of. And rightfully so - he shouldn't be.
Of course she got Lee bit - I never said Clementine was perfect. She was naïve and didn't want to accept the writing on the wall that her parents really were gone. And no doubt this is an underlying reason why she's so much darker in Season 2 than in Season 1. But really that's another point entirely. If you want to hate Clementine for getting Lee killed, I'd say that's perfectly valid. Clementine herself can state how much of an idiot she was and express immense guilt to the point where she wishes that maybe Lee shouldn't have saved her. You can share this view if you'd like. The main summary here being that throughout the first season, Clementine had so many qualities that made her endearing to players which resulted in the largely unanimous reaction to protect her at almost any cost.
I also want to bring up one more point about sympathy (albeit a sketchy one) and why it links back to why we only have one reason of moral obligation to take care of AJ. When we first meet Clementine, it's at the start of the apocalypse when everyone is more or less still normal. When we investigate Clementine's house and listen to the answering machine, most players almost immediately feel sorry for the family as it's revealed that her parents get swallowed up in the initial outbreak without a chance. Because of the nature of the message and the tone of their voice, we can inconclusively decide that they were good people and that their daughter has been left alone. We don't know that for sure, but we can definitely guess as much from the loving message there. Meaning that if we don't care of her there's a chance no one will.
The reason why this point of sympathy applies to Clementine and not so much AJ is because we actually do know AJ's origins and parents.
Nothing proves this point more than Rebecca and Alvin's "relationship" with Clementine. Let me ask: did either of these people do any good for Clementine? Any serious words of encouragement for her? Sympathies? Did they do anything practical in her favour at all in thankfulness for the protection and guidance that Clementine gave? Did they bother, without vagueness or deflection, to explain their situation and story to Clementine? Because short of Rebecca's 'apology' in calling for her death, I can't think of much. Yeah, Alvin can be 'glad' that Clementine's with them, but is that really all it would take to persuade someone into being so personally invested in their lives?
AJ's biological parents weren't the best towards her. Therefore, Clementine shouldn't have to bear the responsibility of carrying this child. We, as a player, and Clementine as a character should definitely not feel indebted or responsible for AJ after the shed scenario alone. And so we're back to the only reason that we take care of AJ for: "It's the right thing to do."
(I didn't mean for this to turn into an essay, but AJ's role in TWD is something that really antagonises me. Thanks to anyone who read the whole thing.)
I actually really liked it thanks for helping me understand. clementine was much more of a able companion in season 1 so I can see why people hate Aj and not clementine. and I really respect the fact that you acknowledge clementine was partly to blame for what happend to lee.
I think Kenny and Jane will be dead when we begin S3. The inclusion of Clem's line "some people protected/helped me(not sure exact phrase?)... (what happened to them) what happens to everyone" imo is meant to make it clear they're dead and not coming back. I would prefer some fleshed out and satisfying flashbacks than them returning for a scene or two in S3.
I think Kenny and Jane will be dead when we begin S3. The inclusion of Clem's line "some people protected/helped me(not sure exact phrase?)... (what happened to them) what happens to everyone" imo is meant to make it clear they're dead and not coming back. I would prefer some fleshed out and satisfying flashbacks than them returning for a scene or two in S3.
We should not assume yet. That specific line "the same thing that happens to everyone" is a exact duplicate of a line she can say to Luke in season 2. It might as well not be in the game at all and just cut into the trailers for dramatic effect.
Shrugs
Maybe so. I have a feeling they might have put that line in the trailer so that people wouldn't keep their expectations high of Jane or Kenny returning in a significant / recurrent way this season. People have spent two years theorising about the endings (and esp who you're with) and it's implications so much that if those characters don't return to the extent you expect them to there could be significant backlash. By putting that line in the trailer it's like they're sending the message loud and clear to... dampen those thoughts before the game as those characters are essentially gone and the story will be focusing on other things and new characters mainly.
But each to his own. We'll know when the game starts.
I'd be pleasantly surprised if anyone of the above theories turns out to be true.
Excellent post. Really spot on.
Another point that I would've included as a reason for disliking AJ's emergence in the story and a reason I felt quite strongly about, is that one of his only, if not only, purpose for existence is to set up and force the last minute Kenny and Jane rivalry, which had little to no development outside of the last episode of season 2 and was simply Telltale trying, and failing, to make up for the lack of actual choice in the game. He's only there to serve as a plot device for Jane to get Kenny to see red, as otherwise, there would've been no fight because they had no reason to be fighting in the first place. It's hard to care for him if he's only used to further a badly written conflict.
To be fair, both do express some amount of sympathy/concern for Clementine in their introduction, it's just that Rebecca can follow it up with wanting to put her down ASAP. Alvin can be persuaded to give her bandages(with a free juice box), later goes looking for her, Nick, and Pete alongside Luke, keeps an eye out for her when Johnny is looking for them, and will stay behind as a "distraction" in Carver's office so Clementine can get away. Rebecca also becomes pretty sentimental with her in Episode 2 and 4, owning up to her vindictive behavior, confiding in her that Alvin might not be her babydaddy, telling her to go look for Luke and Kenny when Carver is torturing Carlos, linking up with her when she gets separated from Kenny, Mike, and determinately Sarita in the herd, some nice conversations while at Parker's Run that won't specify because I'm lazy, and offering to let her hold AJ after he's born.
To get personal for a sec, Alvin was the only character I completely liked when I played the first episode since he clearly wanted to help Clementine but Rebecca was nippin' that in the bud: going to their window has you overhear a conversation about him not supporting her on matters like that before giving you the option to knock on the window. Telling him you know he wants to help because "he's nice" has him claim that he's not and yet petitioning him further has him not only get you some bandages but also throw in a juice box in case she's thirsty. That pretty much made him the only one who was completely benevolent at face value and him helping you despite knowing that he'd be in the doghouse for doing so proved that.
Though I did miss out on this exchange:
Clementine: I didn't do it alone.(or something to that effect)
Rebecca: What? Who helped you?
Alvin:(Looks guilty)
Rebecca: ...This is bullshit.
I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to here. You mean the conversations they have outside the cabin between the group when talking about what to do with Clementine? Because neither were sympathetic like Luke, Pete and even Carlos if you talk to him (who actually does acknowledge that Clementine might be scared but says they have to be sure).
Alvin does let slip he wants to help her, but when Rebecca notices he shuts up about it. So he's good hearted, but not that good hearted should Rebecca will it. And I'm not saying that Alvin's unreasonable in this, but you can't label him as benevolent when he will ignore mistreatment under certain conditions. Rebecca isn't sympathetic at all, the only lines that I can think of were "It won't do any good - you'll just be making it worse for the girl." And "You should have put her out of her misery right there." Both of which are only said in regards to the bite and the 'fact' that she would turn if left alive. She doesn't consider what Clementine is saying and can essentially be read as a sugar coated way of saying 'Kill her.'
None of these conversations are of any relevance to Clementine or even help to further the relationship between the two - they are all one-sided, dependant talks that principally uses Clementine as an emotional crutch for Rebecca and gives more than necessary baggage to a child who is no way in a position to relate to her issues which Rebecca humorously can acknowledge herself in a dialogue option. I can forgive her for this in Episode 4 considering she's hours away from having a child and is rightfully terrified, but I really can't see Rebecca's interactions throughout the season as anything other than draining in nature and is in no way beneficial to our protagonist.
I hope I'm not insulting you when I say I got a chuckle out of this. Rebecca is simultaneously the most vindictive and least apologetic character in the whole series. She gives one half assed apology on the road out of the cabin that's even less substantial than Nick's apology (who actually had a reason for his behaviour), blaming her response to Clementine primarily on hormones and her own insecurities about herself and the Carver situation - and never brings up the issue again. Not only does she sweep this vindictive example under the rug, but she then repeats this behaviour throughout the rest of the season to the point where it becomes a character trait for her, namely through her first interactions with the Ski-Lodge group in which she almost definitely didn't help matters: "Excuse me honey, but do I look like a fucking thief?" She is then said to have continued similar irrational lines with Alvin in Episode 3 where she states that she didn't treat him the best (or something). And again with Jane in Episode 4 where she becomes needlessly defensive about a genuine although callously asked question. She has Larry's temper mixed with Kenny's self-righteousness and it annoys me to no end.
Even Bonnie who, as a character, doesn't even call for anyone's death unlike Rebecca, shows so much more remorse for her actions towards the group that she took in Episode 2 and expresses these up until Episode 5. And, unlike Rebecca, she actually attempts to repent for these actions by setting the group free despite it having potentially fatal consequences.
Both of these are to the detriment of Clementine's safety and are in fact initiated by Rebecca's own self-centred desires for protection. She asks Clementine to find the others in the hope that they can do something so that Rebecca doesn't have to give up, which Alvin convinces her to do anyway. The second instance is done in opposition to the advice expressed by Jane where people should be spread out and not draw too much attention. By tying herself to Clementine, she endangered herself and Clementine by forcing an interaction between the two. This point in particular bothers me because Rebecca takes note herself that she hates how dependent she is on everyone in Episode 2. Yet this is contradicted massively by her actions here as she endangers others in situations that could have been helped had she taken charge of the situations herself.
All the while enforcing the belief that AJ is Clementine's responsibility by referring to her as "family", pressuring her to realise that this baby is hers to look after despite the fact that the player has no input or response to the reference and Clementine, not even knowing this person for longer than two weeks, is being expected to accept this. I really can't express my distaste for this woman in a manner that would probably not get me banned from the forums.
I know this is supposed to be taken as positive points in favour of Alvin's caring attitude towards Clementine, and I recognise that this juice box is supposed to not only be a point of comical relief but a point of sweetness on the part of Alvin's character, but you're joking if my internal response if placed in Clementine's situation would be anything other than "Is this guy serious? I'm bleeding out and I get a juice box?" There's a reason the juice box meme is a thing.
Not to mention that to even convince Alvin to get you the bandages, you have to say one of three things:
He doesn't exactly help you unconditionally out of the bottomless goodness of his heart.
You think he did this out of friendship or express, individual concern for Clementine? I didn't read that all, I just saw it as because he and Luke were the most capable and suitable for the task of finding the missing group. Largely because Rebecca was pregnant and Carlos probably wanted to stay behind to look after Sarah. Both of which only left when they realised that Luke and Alvin themselves were probably in danger from walkers.
You mean in that really awkward quick time event where Clementine should one hundred percent have been found had it taken place as it should? Sure.
I highly doubt that he stayed behind chiefly to guarantee Clementine's escape and did so mostly because he was physically incapable of escaping through the skylight. He even mentions himself "I ain't fit to move, kid. I've run out of road." Hell, I don't even think he could escape through the skylight even if he wasn't beaten and bloody. He stayed behind because he couldn't do anything else. Buying time for Clementine, a person who has initiated an escape plan from the man he hates, was just an added bonus.
And that's the absolute pinnacle of their relationship, is it? This level of affection is all that is required not only to establish an unbreakable bond between characters but is also reason enough for Clementine to shoulder AJ for the foreseeable future and recognise Alvin as a "good man" which she can say to Rebecca and Kenny if I remember rightly. When AJ's old enough to understand, Clementine will recite to him the tale of his namesake father and the juice box. Awesome.
Yeah, good point. Those were indeed the lines.
Eh, I guess. I'm gonna earn some bad medal for doing this, but it is a reason people say they like Jane at least: she confides in Clementine, the PC, about her issues. Honestly, what could she do to benefit Clementine beyond saving her and comforting her over something?
Oh, I'm sorry but I can't disagree with you more on that: I'm pretty sure Jane's more than earned that title given the shit she's responsible for and gets away with.
Wait, so the problem isn't that she's mean to Clementine so much that she's aggressive at all? I thought your point was that she made no attempt to reach out to Clementine or something?
That much, I agree on. Still, kinda sending mixed messages about a character having to do something major(like saving her life) in order to make up for a mistake or wrongdoing instead of a simple apology and attempting to do differently from then on.
Honestly, that whole "not allowed to do anything redeeming/cool" thing is a problem with the Cabin Group as a whole and I meant to write a critique about that a while back.
You know, I never thought about it like that. That's actually really funny now that you did.
In his defense, you are basically asking him to go against his group, much less his wife, in order to help you. Unlike most of the others, his plight and stance on the topic is completely understandable. But to each their own, I guess.
Again, so does Jane. Honestly, that's probably another example of Jane being composite/substitute character, but that's a topic for another day.
Okay dude, I starting to think you're being a little too particular about the things people do for each other. The point is he and Luke were looking for her just as much as the other two, whether because she happened to be there or not, it's a decent thing to do.
To be fair, I'm pretty sure he only mentions this after he states his intentions to get payback. Which arguably isn't any better, but it's also typically action movie dialogue to convince the person you want to get away to leave the dangerous area without you.
To be fair, Alvin is one of those who didn't really get much screentime to begin with--the fact that he's essentially a satellite character doesn't help. And, to be blunt, I think the difference between us here is that you seem to be pretty high maintenance while I try my hardest to abide by what I feel is "right"(a combination of personal beliefs and what Season 1 stood for), which in this case means being forgiving of most people's flaws. One of the supposed messages of this Season is that the world is a messed up place now, with people either getting with the program and doing what they can at any cost, taking advantage of others by being the "strongest", or suffering at the hands of the majority. So in the role of Clementine, when I come across souls like Luke, Alvin, Sarah, Sarita, and Bonnie, I try to appreciate that they're trying to be nice or at least decent people in spite of that; heck, I even try to put up with those who aren't as easily to like, such as Kenny, Rebecca, Nick, Jane, and Arvo. And while there are several outliers and exceptions(Save Lots Bandits, Justin, Carver, Jane), that's just the way I roll in part because that's the way I believe Clementine would/should roll.
Still holding out hope that Kenny/Jane are with AJ, captured by The New Frontier. They can make determinant appearances throughout the season. Once in the premiere obviously, maybe once in episode three or four, and then in the finale. I'd love Telltale for this. It shows they really put in effort to please the fans.
Hell, what can anyone do to benefit Clementine in Season 2? She's hyper-competent by Episode 4 anyway. I don't know. Perhaps taken an interest in Clementine? I'm actually astonished that throughout the entirety of the season, the only two people to actually bother to inquire about her story were Luke and Jane (and Walter to an extent, but only in relation to Kenny). Not that I'm saying she should recite the same Lee sob story every time which would undoubtedly get old fast, but even just an inkling that Rebecca actually cared about Clementine as a person rather than seeing her as Hit-Girl or something. She could also have explained the proper truth about the relationship between their group and Carver's, as the entire group (Carlos at the cabin and Luke on the way to the bridge) seemed to obscure the details vaguely and deliberately to Clementine to the point where it was starting to get suspicious. This would have been a moment of 'confiding' that I would actually be grateful for, as it would give us and Clementine the truth about the whole situation. Any difficulty on reciting these reasons to Clementine on the part of Rebecca because of Carver's terrible relationship with Rebecca would've probably been enough for me to actually empathise with her.
I never expected Rebecca to be in a position to save Clementine's life regardless. She had her pregnancy. If she did, then great, but I never once would have guessed or expected that as a form of redemption for the initial meeting between the two.
I'd put her in for second place honestly. Quantitatively, yeah she probably brings in more shit than Rebecca did, but there's a reason why I promote Rebecca to first place on that. Specifically because Jane actually does bring something to the table. She brings in new ideas and actually contributes to building a relationship with Clementine regardless of how ham fisted it was - showing the initiative in making a plan for how the group could get away from Carver, introducing the idea that Clementine could survive on her own without others holding her down, giving general survival tips and presenting herself as someone who was actually capable immediately put her ahead of so many characters that had been around for multiple episodes.
Jane is of course far, far from perfect. Her biggest issues with me personally was her "entanglement" with Luke and her denial in her role of the entire ordeal with Arvo were things that particularly irked me. But my point being that despite the fact that Jane was such a bipolar character, both personality wise and in a meta "positives vs negatives" light, she seemed to offer something redeemable.
Both are problems that I believe contradict what the writers actually wanted for us to see in Rebecca.
The way I see it with the entire season in full scope is that, by the end, we're supposed to remember Rebecca as a determined, concerning but flawed (as in her own incapability to handle the pressure of becoming a mother in combination with daddy issues and her own self-realisation of how reliant she is on everyone) mother who is fiercely protective over her own group. This justifies her aggressive responses towards potentially hostile outsiders such as Clementine, the Ski-Lodge and Jane. But in the end, this is all dwarfed by her care for those that are a part of her group, even newcomers such as Clementine who she later relates to as family in addition to her wants as a mother to raise and protect a child against all odds and her heartbreak when she hears about the deaths of those around her like those of Nick and/or Sarah. This, in the end, makes us sympathise with her as she turns and dies beyond her own power and leads to a tragic beginning for the life of AJ.
And then, like with most things in Season 2, it falls apart when you look at it critically. However, the infamous 180 in personality makes it impossible for any player to like her regardless of how critically they're playing the game. Why? Because the turning point from her initial meeting doesn't even exist. Her apology on the road was so minor and forgettable that players who aren't even paying attention would just forget about it or not treat it with much thought, and anyone who is paying attention would turn their heads and wonder what her game is since it was so random and contradictory to her established character with very little input being required to push her into the opposite direction. This makes any relationship attempted between the two seem false and strange. And finally, her defensiveness towards those that are a potential danger to her group only end up needlessly escalating the situation despite the fact that she herself is in no position or reason to rise to these conflicts. Especially those between the Ski-Lodge and Jane. So rather than presenting herself as someone who is protective of the group, she just mindlessly endangers the lives of those that she herself relies on.
Don't misinterpret me though, I'm not asking that redemption and desires for forgiveness be expressed exclusively through the act of saving lives. What I really want is a reasonable reaction from the perpetuators as a result of their wrongdoings in accordance with the specific act they've done, rather than having them do one set thing to earn my forgiveness.
Nick's case perfectly fits my view here. He was one of the main callers for Clementine's death and, at the time, I saw him as someone who was just kind of a dick who refused to accept an alternate possibility and just wanted Clementine dead. When he expressed his apology (with the direction of Luke) it was not only genuine and heartfelt, but actually had reasoning - which is further revealed by Nick and Luke's own recital of the story of his mom. By the time that we get to Pete's story the next day as to how clumsy he is with guns, which explained the random shot on her, I basically considered the whole thing with him shelved.
Then we have Bonnie's case, who I didn't even place much blame on for her actions at the ski-lodge. She was just another piece in the puzzle. If it wasn't her who would find the Cabin Group, then it would be someone else. I'm not going to hate her strictly for staying loyal to her group, especially when the group I've been with haven't exactly been saints themselves. And the deaths themselves were only a result from Carver's and Kenny's actions. And yet Bonnie blames herself for what happened there, believing that she could have resolved the entire scenario peacefully. Yeah, I thought she was a bit bone headed for thinking that she could single out all of Carver's extreme actions as a result of 'stress' or something, but her reaction to the case of Reggie turned that thought on its head. So when she took it upon herself to set the entire group free, I thought she went above and beyond the call for redemption to the point where I actually felt kinda guilty for not trusting her about Luke.
And then there's Rebecca, someone who can, with the right dialogue option, straight up reach for the rifle so she can 'get it over with' so to speak, almost becoming the sole reason for Clementine's murder. She then continues through the night to antagonise Clementine for stealing and for not taking the initiative to leave, of course not offering a slight word of relief to the fact that she wasn't bitten. And with a simple apology (which is a fairly accurate adjective of her apology honestly), I'm not only expected to accept that, but also sympathise and support this person despite almost murdering an innocent just two days prior? I'm sorry, but I'd be lying to you if I said I'd be comfortable with that in reality and I think I'd be calling out anyone who said they would be, regardless of a post-apocalyptic ruleset or not.
Oh! In which case, I think I misunderstood your point. I thought you meant that Alvin specifically volunteered to find Clementine because he cared about her above Pete and Nick, which is stupid. Of course he should care for finding the entire group including Clementine. Why not?
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by 'high maintenance' in this context, especially considering I'd describe myself close to what you describe yourself. I don't want this to get confused though - I want to help and forgive people even in spite of their flaws. But more often than not, this means that they either have to make up for said flaws in their own way or be self-aware to the fact. There's no point in forgiving someone for being evil if they're just going to go on and do more evil.
My issue with Alvin and Rebecca, ultimately, stems from my view that neither present any tangible reason for a personal investment on the part of Clementine or, debatably, us as the player. They recognise their flaws, but do little to act on them or work against them while exhibiting so few positives - which you can argue is a lack of screentime, but I still have to bring it up as it's all we have. To finalise, they drop unto the player and Clementine one of the biggest responsibilities a person can hold while clearly expecting no objections to it. All as a reward for being the emotional buffer through the majority of both of their short lived 'friendships.' As a result, am I really so cold, so unreasonable, for wanting to say "No" to that?
True. One of the bigger problems of the Season is that Clementine doesn’t really have much of a consistent personal arc and having characters like Rebecca, Kenny, and especially Sarah ask her about herself and how she feels at any given time(and vice versa) would’ve gone a long way to fixing that.
One thing someone (I think it was BadassMichonne) pointed out is that Rebecca was a chance for Clementine to confront any lingering sentiments she might be harboring regarding Christa and the fate of O.J. Indeed, it is worth noting that when AJ appears to be stillborn in Kenny’s hands, one of Clementine’s possible lines is “Not again….”.
From what I gathered regarding Rebecca’s backstory, it’s indirectly implied that Alvin, Carver, and George were all good friends with each other, which may be what got Rebecca a job as the public announcements speaker. For whatever reason it was, Carver and Rebecca apparently got a little to close and, whether consensual or not, it went far enough that Carver became obsessed and Rebecca doubts AJ’s parentage, hence her claiming that “he has trouble letting go.” Of course, Alvin got together with Luke and Carlos sometime later and the three made a plan to get Rebecca, Sarah, and the Randall family out of there together, presumably to spare them and the baby from living under Carver’s increasingly despotic rule.
And that’s as great an answer as any!
Yeah, I guess so. Though I’d eskew the Luke thing in favor of the entirety of her relationship/interaction with Sarah and how much character development she gets from that (a.i. Practically none, despite the obvious setup) but I’ve acknowledged that is sloppy writing decisions and misaimed pandering more than anything else. Still near impossible to ignore/forgive, though.
Yeeeah…as I said, I’m a pretty forgiving guy for the most part(heck, look some of the characters I consider favorites) but even I consider Rebecca to be easily the worst member of the Cabin Group. And what this even more prevalent is the fact that, like Nick and Sarah, she had a clear story arc set up for her in the first episode and unlike them, she unambiguously sees it through till the end. The problems with her is the ridiculously quick turnaround like you said, which wastes a perfectly good dynamic for the Season, and the fact that her arc is a bit by the numbers, not to mention the premise of her initial dilemma is shallow and borderline offensive. I even included her on my most recent dislike list purely because I can look at how her character is portrayed throughout the Season, along with how inspirational it could be, and find myself asking “Why didn’t this work?!”
That is an interesting way to put it, actually.
Yeah, well I still hesitate to call him a favorite, I do appreciate Nick for being a character that feels like he belongs in Season 1 writing.
Yeah, because Kenny was at his most unlikable, Jane was pretty unsympathetic, and Arvo was technically an anti-villain trying to make amends, Bonnie was easily the most sympathetic character outside of Luke, Clementine, and AJ precisely because she was clearly a good person who was in a bad outfit for a while before successfully leaving that mess behind.
Wait, what?
Yeah, when I found out that can happen, I was like “Wow, what a bitch!” Okay, I totally understand all of that now that you’ve brought that into context as well.
Yeah, it’s cool. Honestly, it’d be a little silly if that was his reasoning.
Alvin: Oh Clementine! So glad I found ya’, kid.
Nick: And what the hell am I then, chopped liver?
No, like you said earlier, I think that was just a case of us misunderstanding each other. I was sorta misconstruing your points as “Bitch, you wanted to shoot me! I better get a cake outta this!”
True enough.