Kenny and Jane...I have to talk...(SPOILERS)
I think right now that this is pretty game-breaking for people. I'm starting to read more and more about it and people seem to be extremely angry. I just wanted to lead this discussion and try to figure out peacefully what people want out of Telltale continuing on or just general feelings.
Now my personal opinion is this. Since Kenny and Jane will clearly not be apart of the story in season 3, I think it might be best to leave whoever we picked in season 2. I know it's not fair and I get that. But there's so many other characters we didn't a chance to let walk away alive and never be killed for plot. However, if you want the characters to appear in season 3 no matter what and accept their deaths, then cool. We got closure for their characters as well as another season appearance. Their deaths are far from perfectly written but if you read between the lines, I do see that it is true to their characters. Kenny died focusing on his love for Clem and AJ and so he saved their lives at the cost of his own. Plus Clem, Kenny, and AJ live an additional two years together. Now game-wise that's not a lot, but timeline wise it is.
And Jane having been pregnant from Luke decides to commit suicide, which sticks with her strong beliefs on babies in the apocalypse being a big no-no. She knew her condition would make it hard on Clementine and she wouldn't be able to survive on her own so she decided to end it. It is tragic but it is a sensible ending to her character if she absolutely couldn't continue on in the plot due to being a determinant.
Now having said what I had to, let's please discuss this civilly and send our true thoughts in Telltale's direction. I don't think it's constructive to say "FUCK JAVIER I WANT KENNY" or "FUCK KATE I WANT JANE". We all want Kenny/Jane to be with us but what's done is done. Can we as a community move on and try to accept Javier, Kate, Gabe, Tripp, Eleanor, and David as our new cast? Can we accept that maybe Telltale will listen and try to have a more long-term cast? Or can we maybe save our ultimate convictions for episode 5? Let's discuss. Just know I hear all your points and I'm not trying to sugarcoat. I just want to show that there is more than just bad.
Comments
We already have a huge thread about this, why can't you "lead it" there? You miss several of the points people are angry with anyway. Most were well aware that the characters were not likely to survive, it's the handling of the flashbacks people complain about.
I also don't get this argument that they couldn't be a part of the story, there is no reason why they couldn't have had a role. All it takes is writing ambition and skill, this is not math, with one correct solution.
If Kenny or Jane was forced to die at the end of the last episode of S3 I would've been cool with that cause at least we get to spend more time with these characters but instead they killed them off in the first episode and that was what made me really pissed off and I can't accept that from TellTale...
I'm more pissed at the fact that they were killed off so we can play as Javier and barely play as Clementine
that's what frustrates me.
Javier fucking ruined Jane and Kenny
Also what the fuck was the point of those multiple endings if they weren't even gonna use them properly?
I wish they made it to the end of the season as well. Just small moments. It does definitely seem lazy.
Very true. And they did have two years to plan it but it seems like a very bare bones solution.
I said this before we even knew anything that he would be compared to past characters and feel the wrath of fanbase if he isn't good enough. Recent news of Kenny and Jane hasn't helped him. He has a lot to live up to.
You go out of your way to disagree with everything I post so it's hard to even discuss with you but you missed my point. I'm not that happy with the flashbacks either. I think they should've been way longer and spread out over the season. But I am at least somewhat glad that the characters can be alive out there somewhere if we make the choice in season 2. I would prefer if they're still alive but every time Telltale makes a character determinant, it is a death sentence. It's been that way since season one. I still hope one day it will be Until Dawn-esque in that determinant characters will truly live or die later. But for now it seems like lack of ambition or possible laziness. And yes that is inexcusable. But that's what this discussion is for.
It is also possible they desperately wanted to push a new story and couldn't handle the stress of a determinant character in the system. However, I do think if you wrote Kenny/Jane's role in season 3 similarly they could've easily made it through the season.
People aren't upset that Kenny and Jane did die, they're upset about how they died. Kenny death was a fluke, more so than Jane's. I can understand hers a bit. But in season 2 she was so judgmental surrounding Rebecca and the baby, but she goes and have vaginal sex knowing there's a chance she can become pregnant in be in the same situation. Doesn't make sense, but I can accepted it. Kenny on the other had, no. Let me just say this, if Kenny died, AJ should have died also. That crash was so deadly that Kenny was ejected from the window. But AJ, a child who is not properly restrained survived without any injury. That's BS, and unbelievable. Who writes this, and do they know how accidents work? It was rushed and just plain bad all around. I didn't like Kenny nor did I like Jane, but their deaths were bad. Javier on the other hand is BLAND!!
I dunno how people have not realized by now choices make ABSOLUTELY no difference in these games. They are always pointless and lead to the same conclusion.
If there is a season 2 of Batman bet any money characters like Two-Face who had several different options will either not turn up at all or will be just completely bad now, no matter what choices you made.
Eh, I wouldn't say three lines is trying hard.
Otherwise I do agree with these statements. It seems like Telltale made a early decision to stray from Clementine's story as the main focus and didn't know how to handle the fallout or keep her relations relevant. The only right choice given the result would have been to have Clem as a cameo rather than a supporting character and just alluding to Jane and Kenny's further survival. They tried to weave a basket from a thorn bush it seems.
All I want is for Clem to be with a group who survives as a whole, consistency, and characters who are around long enough for us to grow attached to. That would make impending deaths a lot heavier. If you chose to stay with Kenny in S2, then he's kind of the exception since he's been with us since the very beginning, but then there's everyone else. If this is another season of groups falling apart around Clementine, then it's getting old. There's plenty of story to be told elsewhere. Example: Clem could be a teenage fighter for a community at war with another, and not someone leading adults the way she did in S2. That said, I'm still giving S3 a fair chance.
What. AJ was in the back seat with his belt on, Kenny on the other hand had no belt on, told Clem to accelerate and then decides to turn around and leave the 12 year old unattended while she drove for the first time in high velocity (typical dumbass Kenny).
By all means call it a dumb and meaningless death, but calling it unrealistic is just nitpicking. Hell, if in this dumbass scenario an accident hadn't happened, then it would be unrealistic.
What are you talking about? Javier's great. MUCH better than S2 Clementine or any other character from S2.
It's more about hope rather than realism. Given that Telltale themselves blew this whole thing up with "ZOMG 42 STARTING POINTS" a few days ago I can't really blame people for increasing that hope.
I'm in a minority that thinks Clementine's story should've concluded in season two because it let her find somewhere peaceful finally instead of dealing with the same old shit again. She also could've come back in the story in a later season and older. But I understand a majority of the fanbase wanted her to continue in the story and now she's going to be Javi's reluctant partner in crime I guess. I think Robert Kirkman really wanted the game to get back to focusing on popular comic Walking Dead themes. I'm already seeing it with the Javi/Kate/David possible love triangle. It's classic Rick/Lori/Shane. I'm upset especially that Kenny won't be involved since I preferred him personally but I'll try and move on. I wish his death scene was more fighting heroism than peaceful heroism if that makes sense.
I already kind of dig Javier and Kate so I'm going to try and hope that maybe these characters can actually survive past the season. I'm tired of the whole determinant character bullshit anyway because it messes up the story flow.
There's a reason car seats exist, you can't put a baby in a seatbelt and expect them to be okay in the event of a car crash. Especially a crash that sends the passenger through the window. It's very unrealistic.
Exactly why I really dislike the "it's the apocalypse, people die" argument. There has been nothing but death, and it's stopped people from forming interest in new characters, especially the determinant ones.
I'm right there with you. I'm hoping Mari's death is the last for a while because I want a solid group to make it at least until the finale. In fact, Mari's death could be a conflict point for Javi and David and maybe that's its purpose. We need more characters to survive a while. Javier, Kate, Gabe, and even Eleanor should be there with Clem at the end. It's kind of ridiculous to keep being a sole survivor.
In your opinion.
Of course, but it's also your opinion that Javier is a bland protagonist.
I dislike that argument, too. It's a disservice to their new characters that then turns into the same story telling. It's like reading the same book over and over. We know how it's going to end.
Yeah, exactly. Can you imagine the impact this season could've had if the S1 group was still together, but it fell apart at the S3 finale? Or even the S2 group, because then we would've had nearly 2 full seasons of getting to know most of them.
The ideal would have been a mix, yeah? Like, people shouldn't just be immortal. The interesting thing about the Walking Dead is seeing how people form community and survive together, and the impact it has when memebers die, but Telltale never takes their time to develop the community. They haven't even really tried since the motel group. Every community Clementine has come across since dies within an hour of the audience viewing time.
I just played Season One the other week in preparation and was thinking about Katjaa, Duck, Carley/Doug, and Mark being around past Episode 5 and helping Christa and Omid raise Clementine at the beginning of season two. Man...what could've been, right? Kenny's death in the premiere if you think about it is supposed to be the most powerful since Lee himself. The man's been around since episode one and it just...didn't live up to its full potential. But man I wish people like Luke, Nick, and Pete were still around too...Ugh...Too late now...
Jane's suicide is makes sense for her character.
It would've been highly dangerous for Clementine to take care of a weak woman, a toddler and a baby, all at once, especially with little resources and no medical expertise; Jane knew that. Perhaps she believed that she had taught Clem all she could, and so the last purpose of her existence had been fulfilled. There was no motive to continue to live under the torture of flashbacks of Jamie's death and wait to undergo labor and worsen the life of Clementine. And, even though Clem was important to her, she was planning to leave in "Amid The Ruins" without saying a heartbreaking goodbye; this was similar.
Why did she engage in sex that lead her to become pregnant? She is a human, and, even though she wishes to be pragmatic, she is fragile like everyone else. The situation under which Sarah could've died, along with her assault on a crippled teenager while under survivor's auto-pilot, all led her to falling onto a vulnerable state. When the situation allowed for her to connect with Luke, she took it; she messed up; the principles that she had held for so long didn't even cross her mind, nor did the consequences that having sex brought.
What ruined the outcome of Jane's ending was not the behavior of her character, but the short length of the segment that makes it abrupt and lackluster, the lack of consequence that the presence of the family had, and the terrible models that highlight the idea that it's not meant to be taken seriously.
@Nikolaj-11 - - Yeah, absolutely. I agree. If the goal was to give new characters the impression that Clem is bad luck, because of the 2 groups that fell apart, it could be an interesting story. Let's see how Clem fits in with a group who knows how to survive, and keep her with that group to build new relationships we can care about. But if everything previously was for shock and awe, then that wore off already.
@TJ3046 - - Yeah, I'm with you. It would've been cool to see S1 group interact with S2 group. Could've merged or fought each other. If they were set in stone about Kenny dying in S3 E1, they could've done better than a car crash. Make it have meaning, not an accident.
Let's face it J-Master it's impossible for new characters to be worse as Season 2 character's are so bad
Like I've said before I think they messed up by showing their fate so earlier instead of throughout S3. At the same time how can they show flashbacks with what Clem went through with them/alone without extending the episodes? Each year it seems these episodes get shorter to the point where it seems you can easily complete it in under an hour.
Like when they announced how they will balance your choices from S2 into S3. I think I may have posted here about my concerns about how they choose to handle that last major choice. Well, TWD S3 revealed my greatest fear and now it seems like we won't get any sort of continuity from the past two seasons. I don't understand how they mess up so simply when it comes to explaining Clem's story. You have plenty of characters from the past seasons that help this game hold up on its own instead of throwing in comic characts and a brand new guy most don't really care about.
Hell, the only time I got any ounce of emotional was when it involved Clem. I just didn't really care about Javi's story as it feels like Clem's isn't complete at all and Telltale refuses to show anything about it.
I mean why would they fuck over Jane like that? Also, am I the only one that thinks the age they have her as in relation to Jane being pregnant doesn't make sense? I mean call me stupid but Jane looked "puffy" but her belly looked pretty damn flat. Clem looked pretty damn old in that flashback...yet most of us believe she was impregnated by Luke? Something not right about that y'all.
Kenny probably has one of the most fucked up slapped in the face endings I've ever seen. This is coming from someone who hated Kenny and was happy to shot him in S2 btw. It's like they wanted to give him a heroes death even though from S2 he is one of the more flawed characters you have. Having die like that is beyond cheap.
Once again I just don't get why TTG couldn't just do a story that either starts with her with Kenny/Jane or alone. You didn't need a third character at all as they had a big set up for another season anyway. They destroyed the interest for those stories by shoving this in our face like all the other games they put out. Some of them(tales) actually turned out really good while others (MC/GoT/Michonne) left a lot to be desired.
I'm just beyond disappointed. Episode 3 better fucking open with us controlling Clem and not a whole episode of Javi with five minutes of Clem's pain.
It's not really the suicide that bothered me about Jane's ending for me persay. It's the fact she hung herself knowing full well she'd turn. Why? Did she not want to waste a bullet? Surely she would've guessed that Clementine would put her down anyway.
42 STARTING POINTS was never a thing.
Agreed. Episode 3 and 4 better be all clem. Seriously. I would of been happy with 50/50 shared . I want to continue to clem's story. decide who she is, making choices for her. I could careless about Javier.
If Telltale did something to change the outcomes of Kenny/Jane/Wellington, do you think people would be instantly more satisfied with season three?
Im pissed that they died but i sorta knew that it was gonna happen didnt think that Wellington would fall just like that but im even more pissed on how quickly it was played out and the amount of screen time they had
But having Kenny's death have meaning would mean they intended for us to have any other ending than Clem alone, which is the ending TTG wanted us to pick, considering we had many chances to kill or abandon these people.
The point was to make us think we had choices again so we'd buy season 3. But if you pay attention you would see TTG WANTED US TO PICK THE ALONE ending as every other choice at the end of season 2 was to kill or abandon the characters.
And the way the flashbacks were handled, it was obvious that they never had any intention of following through on season 2 locations or endings as Clem alone was their main choice and it's what's TTG want not us.
Plus, Clem acts the same regardless of who you pick in season 2
First of all, they would've been killed off even if Clem was the main character. It's what Telltale does with determinants.
Second of all, of course you're gonna be playing as Javier more often than Clementine. This is his story, after all.
I strongly disagree with that.
There's no possible way that scenario wouldn't end in a crash in real life.
Yep very minor changes to clems personality like the candy bar situation
I didn't say it wouldn't end in a crash, I said because that force was strong enough to eject the passenger out of the front window, there is no way AJ or Clem would have walked away unharmed. He's a baby who is only being restrained with a one point seat belt ( a belt that only goes over the hip), instead of a four point seat belt that a car seat offers. That's the unrealistic part. If Kenny died from that car crash, both Clem and AJ should have been hurt very badly or dead also.