I feel like a broken record, but since I never said this in a while -- here goes.
Rick and Carl are the focal characters of the TWD, whoever the fuck are the focal characters in Fear TWD (I never really watched it), TWD Michonne's focal character is well.... do I need to say it? And finally, Clem is also a focal character of Telltale's TWD main franchise.
There's focal characters for each of these stories, yet there's a lot of characters that people gets invested in as well. Sure it covers everyone, but ultimately it usually leads to the chain link that has it all holding together.
I agree with you for the most part. There are times where I feel in this game there was hardly much going for her besides the helping Javier to get a ride and having a link to New Frontier (the latter has the biggest potential of making her more involved, which I hope Telltale capitalizes. I'm quite excited about that.). I feel another thing that could've gotten her more involved was her issues with Eli, the bullet handler who screwed her. Have him live and create a bit of a feud between her and Eli up to Clem's revelation, making him survive the Prescott siege incident, where instead of Conrad it is Eli wanting to use Clem as a bargaining chip. This way Clem will have a lot going for her during episodes 1 and 2 while not taking away Javier's story. In the Ep3 waiting thread I shared a bit of a re-write on how to make Clem more involved while building the Prescott community's lore and beefing up the episode, solving several issues.
I don't want the S3 defenders to get me wrong (but that's most likely inevitable), as I like New Frontier so far, but there are things where I feel could've been refined. If people wanna say I'm obsessed of Clem, then fine, kiss my butt, but I really give a damn about the narrative, and no one can deny Clem has been a big part of the narrative as a whole.
Clementine is to TWDG what Rick Grimes is to TWD. She's that freaking important to the game and TTG pushing her to the side to make room for… more Javier is both tone deaf and disappointing.
Just think about how Rick's presence dominates TWD, even in the later issues of the comics (where he is much less of an action hero and delegates more of his leadership responsbilities). While it's very likely that Kirkman will one day kill off Rick, TWD is very much Rick's story and the other characters, though important, are supporting cast to Rick. He's the "Everyman" that the audience relates to and he's who we identify with, root for, root against, feel for, and fear for. You can't just remove him from the story without changing what it's about, for better or worse, you dance with the one that brought you.
We've seen Rick go from waking up in a coma during the zombie apocalypse to making real strives (amidst setbacks) toward rebuilding civilization. … [view original content]
I don't exactly disagree with some of your complaints about her limitations during S2, but I do disagree with how you frame S1. I think most of Lee's actions and concerns in S1 were directly related to protecting Clementine and teaching her how to survive, so while she's not the direct protagonist, she is the major focus of the entire first season.
Everything about S1's story is driving Lee (and the others in his group) to protect her, teach her, and ultimately save her. Her safety in the midst of a zombie apocalypse is the core conflict of the entire story. Without her there, the tension and worry players feel while playing Lee and dealing with the dangers of the world during the ZA would have been greatly diminished.
I really can't understand this obsession with Clementine...Clementine wasn't even the protagonist of the first game, nor was she in every si… morengle scene like some of you seem to want. That's not saying she didn't have an important role in the story, because she obviously did and acted as Lee's ticket for redemption, but it was, essentially, Lee's story. It was his journey, not Clementine's. She served well as an NPC and was, while a simple character, likable and unlike so many other child characters, not annoying. But that does not mean, in any way, that she was the entire focus of season 1 because she wasn't and that's why the game is far superior to the second. When they attempted to do this in season 2, we see what a failure Clementine, as a protagonist, is.
In season 2, we take over as Clementine, but she has little to no driving force in the actual story, nor does she seem to have much effect on it. Much of the conflict and drama is cent… [view original content]
I like Clem yet this is getting ridiculous. Clem isn't that important to the story of Walking Dead. She's just another character trying to survive. I hate that they brought her back. My friend and I knew that this would make our decisions meaningless in S2 and we were right. Bye Wellington, Kenny and Jane as an example. It's like TT are trying to create a female Carl now and it's ridiculous.
Have Clem leave the story asap to join another group and replace her with Lilly, Michonne, and Javier in a group.
No, that's like having Rick Grimes leave the show. Nobody would watch the show beyond the point. If Clementine gets put out, then they might as well end the series.
I like Clem yet this is getting ridiculous. Clem isn't that important to the story of Walking Dead. She's just another character trying to s… moreurvive. I hate that they brought her back. My friend and I knew that this would make our decisions meaningless in S2 and we were right. Bye Wellington, Kenny and Jane as an example. It's like TT are trying to create a female Carl now and it's ridiculous.
Have Clem leave the story asap to join another group and replace her with Lilly, Michonne, and Javier in a group.
No, that's like having Rick Grimes leave the show. Nobody would watch the show beyond the point. If Clementine gets put out, then they might as well end the series.
Yea, I mean, if someone says season one didn't put an emphasis on the decisions you make impacting her, there's no denying the climax of the story revolved around her. Carl is damaged, but Clems a different beast entirely. She shot her father figure in the head or alternatively left him knowing he was close to turning. She's been from group to group, constantly watching those around her die and being left to fend for herself. Some of the decisions you had to make as her in season 2 were questionable to be left in her hands at that age, but she has been reinforced time and time again as the focal point of the series. The tragedies she's had to endure alone and being alone in a hostile world to fend for herself.
By this point she is very capable of surviving as a productive member of a group, maybe not to the extent as someone like Javier or Lee in a leadership role but a group dynamic utilizing Clem and Javier would work. Was Carl much older than S2 Clem when he landed a perfect headshot on a reanimated Shane? Or when he walked the halls of the infested prison alone to retrieve medical supplies for his mother? TWD is built on the story of personal growth and adaptation for survival. I'm not saying Javier shouldn't have existed before anyone gets that in there head, or he shouldn't have been a playable character, but continuing her story in a group dynamic with another playable character would have been a great approach to ANF, both allowing new players the opportunity to see the world from fresh eyes by giving them someone who's going to develop with them and continuing the development of the first two seasons.
No, that's like having Rick Grimes leave the show. Nobody would watch the show beyond the point. If Clementine gets put out, then they might as well end the series.
The way that S2 had ended showed us that there was no possible continuation for Clem without ticking the fans off. I've made statements that Kenny or Jane were the player's Lee in S2. Obviously there was no way to keep them in a S3 with Clem due to the fanbase choosing one or the other to help their Clem.
I'd rather we move away from her story to concentrate on new characters. It's been more than a few years since the outbreak so there's gotta be a variety of characters to get to know.
Yea, I mean, if someone says season one didn't put an emphasis on the decisions you make impacting her, there's no denying the climax of the… more story revolved around her. Carl is damaged, but Clems a different beast entirely. She shot her father figure in the head or alternatively left him knowing he was close to turning. She's been from group to group, constantly watching those around her die and being left to fend for herself. Some of the decisions you had to make as her in season 2 were questionable to be left in her hands at that age, but she has been reinforced time and time again as the focal point of the series. The tragedies she's had to endure alone and being alone in a hostile world to fend for herself.
By this point she is very capable of surviving as a productive member of a group, maybe not to the extent as someone like Javier or Lee in a leadership role but a group dynamic utilizing Clem and Javier would work. Was Carl much olde… [view original content]
I wish TTG was actually reading the forums so they can see your reply.@RedCombLP I feel like all of our energy spent trying to discuss the issues of the game goes to waste as nobody is listening or rather, reading.
Clementine is to TWDG what Rick Grimes is to TWD. She's that freaking important to the game and TTG pushing her to the side to make room for… more Javier is both tone deaf and disappointing.
Just think about how Rick's presence dominates TWD, even in the later issues of the comics (where he is much less of an action hero and delegates more of his leadership responsbilities). While it's very likely that Kirkman will one day kill off Rick, TWD is very much Rick's story and the other characters, though important, are supporting cast to Rick. He's the "Everyman" that the audience relates to and he's who we identify with, root for, root against, feel for, and fear for. You can't just remove him from the story without changing what it's about, for better or worse, you dance with the one that brought you.
We've seen Rick go from waking up in a coma during the zombie apocalypse to making real strives (amidst setbacks) toward rebuilding civilization. … [view original content]
I agree the endings of S2 left very little to work with, you're given 4 different possibilities to work with and any continuation would have to find a reason to make all of those ultimately end with her being ending up in one place. Throw in the fact that two of them have you leaving with characters that have an enthusiastic fan base, and it was bound to stir up ill feelings. I think the brevity of all of them left them unsatisfying, though. Mass Effect 3 caused an uproar by ending the saga this way, and ultimately released a much longer than 2 minute providing some closure to the series by reflecting on state of things. Having Clementine arrive at Wellington alone, with Kenny or with Jane, walking in and seeing that it's not a pipe dream, there are thriving communities returning to a somewhat normal state of society would have left us knowing that while the world is still hell, we've found some hope. Some place where life won't be nearly as hard as on the road, there's a chance of a somewhat return to normal society. It wouldn't have compromised the universe, and would be kinda similar to ending the game on the same note as when Rick brought the Woodbury residents back to his community. If it was the last time you saw her, it would be a conclusive way to end the story and move to another area struggling for the same.
The way that S2 had ended showed us that there was no possible continuation for Clem without ticking the fans off. I've made statements that… more Kenny or Jane were the player's Lee in S2. Obviously there was no way to keep them in a S3 with Clem due to the fanbase choosing one or the other to help their Clem.
I'd rather we move away from her story to concentrate on new characters. It's been more than a few years since the outbreak so there's gotta be a variety of characters to get to know.
I agree the endings of S2 left very little to work with, you're given 4 different possibilities to work with and any continuation would have… more to find a reason to make all of those ultimately end with her being ending up in one place. Throw in the fact that two of them have you leaving with characters that have an enthusiastic fan base, and it was bound to stir up ill feelings. I think the brevity of all of them left them unsatisfying, though. Mass Effect 3 caused an uproar by ending the saga this way, and ultimately released a much longer than 2 minute providing some closure to the series by reflecting on state of things. Having Clementine arrive at Wellington alone, with Kenny or with Jane, walking in and seeing that it's not a pipe dream, there are thriving communities returning to a somewhat normal state of society would have left us knowing that while the world is still hell, we've found some hope. Some place where life won't be nearly as … [view original content]
I fucking love Clementine and I want her to stay in the game more than anything in TWDG, but with Telltales decisions recently Idk if that's gonna be a choice or not. They're just gonna create a bond with us and this little girl for two seasons that we grew to adore/love and then in the third season she's just completely different and I think she's gonna be removed. Saddest thing ever but I think it's the inevitable.
I only said my piece just to get it off my chest and mind. If they don't care about our feedback, that's on them.
Even if they don't bother with individual posts, hopefully there is a enough complaining that it at least registers with them and they take a step back and reconsider the current direction they seem to be taking the studio.
We want more Tales from the Borderland type games, less "interactive story on rails" kind of stuff like ANF.
If they decide to keep going with shorter episodes where everything totally feels like its on rails, then people will seek their point-and-click adventure game fix elsewhere.
At this point, I don't think TTG cares (and maybe it won't hurt their bottom line), but hopefully it at least gives them a reason to pause and do some soul-searching because they are not the same company now that many of us grew to know and love.
I wish TTG was actually reading the forums so they can see your reply.@RedCombLP I feel like all of our energy spent trying to discuss the issues of the game goes to waste as nobody is listening or rather, reading.
Comments
I feel like a broken record, but since I never said this in a while -- here goes.
Rick and Carl are the focal characters of the TWD, whoever the fuck are the focal characters in Fear TWD (I never really watched it), TWD Michonne's focal character is well.... do I need to say it? And finally, Clem is also a focal character of Telltale's TWD main franchise.
There's focal characters for each of these stories, yet there's a lot of characters that people gets invested in as well. Sure it covers everyone, but ultimately it usually leads to the chain link that has it all holding together.
I agree with you for the most part. There are times where I feel in this game there was hardly much going for her besides the helping Javier to get a ride and having a link to New Frontier (the latter has the biggest potential of making her more involved, which I hope Telltale capitalizes. I'm quite excited about that.). I feel another thing that could've gotten her more involved was her issues with Eli, the bullet handler who screwed her. Have him live and create a bit of a feud between her and Eli up to Clem's revelation, making him survive the Prescott siege incident, where instead of Conrad it is Eli wanting to use Clem as a bargaining chip. This way Clem will have a lot going for her during episodes 1 and 2 while not taking away Javier's story. In the Ep3 waiting thread I shared a bit of a re-write on how to make Clem more involved while building the Prescott community's lore and beefing up the episode, solving several issues.
I don't want the S3 defenders to get me wrong (but that's most likely inevitable), as I like New Frontier so far, but there are things where I feel could've been refined. If people wanna say I'm obsessed of Clem, then fine, kiss my butt, but I really give a damn about the narrative, and no one can deny Clem has been a big part of the narrative as a whole.
I don't exactly disagree with some of your complaints about her limitations during S2, but I do disagree with how you frame S1. I think most of Lee's actions and concerns in S1 were directly related to protecting Clementine and teaching her how to survive, so while she's not the direct protagonist, she is the major focus of the entire first season.
Everything about S1's story is driving Lee (and the others in his group) to protect her, teach her, and ultimately save her. Her safety in the midst of a zombie apocalypse is the core conflict of the entire story. Without her there, the tension and worry players feel while playing Lee and dealing with the dangers of the world during the ZA would have been greatly diminished.
Dillon that was the best comment I've seen all day. I laughed hard at that.
I like Clem yet this is getting ridiculous. Clem isn't that important to the story of Walking Dead. She's just another character trying to survive. I hate that they brought her back. My friend and I knew that this would make our decisions meaningless in S2 and we were right. Bye Wellington, Kenny and Jane as an example. It's like TT are trying to create a female Carl now and it's ridiculous.
Have Clem leave the story asap to join another group and replace her with Lilly, Michonne, and Javier in a group.
No, that's like having Rick Grimes leave the show. Nobody would watch the show beyond the point. If Clementine gets put out, then they might as well end the series.
Clem isn't Rick though. Clem is more like Carl and I don't play the series for her alone, I play it for character development.
Yea, I mean, if someone says season one didn't put an emphasis on the decisions you make impacting her, there's no denying the climax of the story revolved around her. Carl is damaged, but Clems a different beast entirely. She shot her father figure in the head or alternatively left him knowing he was close to turning. She's been from group to group, constantly watching those around her die and being left to fend for herself. Some of the decisions you had to make as her in season 2 were questionable to be left in her hands at that age, but she has been reinforced time and time again as the focal point of the series. The tragedies she's had to endure alone and being alone in a hostile world to fend for herself.
By this point she is very capable of surviving as a productive member of a group, maybe not to the extent as someone like Javier or Lee in a leadership role but a group dynamic utilizing Clem and Javier would work. Was Carl much older than S2 Clem when he landed a perfect headshot on a reanimated Shane? Or when he walked the halls of the infested prison alone to retrieve medical supplies for his mother? TWD is built on the story of personal growth and adaptation for survival. I'm not saying Javier shouldn't have existed before anyone gets that in there head, or he shouldn't have been a playable character, but continuing her story in a group dynamic with another playable character would have been a great approach to ANF, both allowing new players the opportunity to see the world from fresh eyes by giving them someone who's going to develop with them and continuing the development of the first two seasons.
The way that S2 had ended showed us that there was no possible continuation for Clem without ticking the fans off. I've made statements that Kenny or Jane were the player's Lee in S2. Obviously there was no way to keep them in a S3 with Clem due to the fanbase choosing one or the other to help their Clem.
I'd rather we move away from her story to concentrate on new characters. It's been more than a few years since the outbreak so there's gotta be a variety of characters to get to know.
I wish TTG was actually reading the forums so they can see your reply.@RedCombLP I feel like all of our energy spent trying to discuss the issues of the game goes to waste as nobody is listening or rather, reading.
Are they even reading the forums?
I agree the endings of S2 left very little to work with, you're given 4 different possibilities to work with and any continuation would have to find a reason to make all of those ultimately end with her being ending up in one place. Throw in the fact that two of them have you leaving with characters that have an enthusiastic fan base, and it was bound to stir up ill feelings. I think the brevity of all of them left them unsatisfying, though. Mass Effect 3 caused an uproar by ending the saga this way, and ultimately released a much longer than 2 minute providing some closure to the series by reflecting on state of things. Having Clementine arrive at Wellington alone, with Kenny or with Jane, walking in and seeing that it's not a pipe dream, there are thriving communities returning to a somewhat normal state of society would have left us knowing that while the world is still hell, we've found some hope. Some place where life won't be nearly as hard as on the road, there's a chance of a somewhat return to normal society. It wouldn't have compromised the universe, and would be kinda similar to ending the game on the same note as when Rick brought the Woodbury residents back to his community. If it was the last time you saw her, it would be a conclusive way to end the story and move to another area struggling for the same.
Exactly
I fucking love Clementine and I want her to stay in the game more than anything in TWDG, but with Telltales decisions recently Idk if that's gonna be a choice or not. They're just gonna create a bond with us and this little girl for two seasons that we grew to adore/love and then in the third season she's just completely different and I think she's gonna be removed. Saddest thing ever but I think it's the inevitable.
Nice post though, you made some great points.
I only said my piece just to get it off my chest and mind. If they don't care about our feedback, that's on them.
Even if they don't bother with individual posts, hopefully there is a enough complaining that it at least registers with them and they take a step back and reconsider the current direction they seem to be taking the studio.
We want more Tales from the Borderland type games, less "interactive story on rails" kind of stuff like ANF.
If they decide to keep going with shorter episodes where everything totally feels like its on rails, then people will seek their point-and-click adventure game fix elsewhere.
At this point, I don't think TTG cares (and maybe it won't hurt their bottom line), but hopefully it at least gives them a reason to pause and do some soul-searching because they are not the same company now that many of us grew to know and love.
you are just trying to push buttons with that statement there is nothing creepy about it. People care about good characters created in good stories.
And that's why she'll probably die.