Clementine's motive? Warning - Intense Guessing!!!
It's been a while since I was last on this community but I had some interesting ideas I wanted to share regarding the 'crowd favourite' Clementine in the latest season.
I have only finished one play through of the game so far. The inconsistency of the character's motivations in relation to the plot has not impressed me. However, I would like to vent my woes instead in some outrageous theorising.
I have a hypothesis on Clementine's motivations this season that adds a great intrigue to the story for me. Most likely, there is a large chunk of evidence that disagrees with this in many other playthroughs.
I welcome all comments on the matter.
Just FYI before you think I'm hating - I love Clementine as a character. Unfortunately, though, she’s a filthy liar.
For reference, here are my choices for the first two episodes of New Frontier.
Episode 1
- Stayed the night in the Junkyard. - 51.5%
- Let the driver go. - 55.6%
- Allowed to roam free. (sold out Clementine) - 5.7%
- Went with Eleanor to the Junkyard. - 46.6%
- Escaped with your family. - 16%
Episode 2
- Stayed out of it. - 33.8%
- Surrendered. - 42.5%
- Took Jesus at his word. - 85.9%
- Let Conrad capture Clementine. (More like orchestrated her capture.) -8.6%. I picked for Clementine to be part of New Frontier - interesting that it's not a main choice.
- Capitulated to Max's demands. - 95.8%. I don't believe using Clementine as a hostage matters here.
Theory Begins.
I played this game in Crowd mode with my family. The only choice I was not originally okay with was going with Eleanor. Every other main choice I agreed with though. While on the discussion of this choice, I am curious why picking Eleanor annoys Clementine. Why does Clementine want to be around the pissed off Tripp instead off the sympathetic Eleanor who can let her escape the community unscathed. Does Clementine actually want to leave this group? Is something more sinister at play here? Let's find out.
Firstly, exploring Javier: In this playthrough Javier has killed none of the New Frontier in the first episode and has been completely cooperative with them - only killing when forced too. I find it weird and immersive breaking that the New Frontier blame all the murders, that Clementine committed, on Javier. Fortunately, I will approach this as a legitimate path and not put the blame on Telltale's story design.
Now listing Clementine's actions in the first two episodes:
Episode 1
- The Junkyard looks like Clementine's home. Why do New Frontier claim it's theirs?
- Clementine stops the truck and takes Javier hostage.
- They go to a familiar community to rest for the night.
- She commits manslaughter on the local arms dealer. - as you do.
- Tries to manipulating Javier into siding with her.
- She is more trusting of the leader type who wants her kicked out than the sympathetic doctor. - logic
- Flashback to Wellington. She escapes with AJ and her new caretaker - Edith - dies.
- Stays behind to attack the New Frontier - expects Javier to Join her in rage.
Episode 2
- Leads the New Frontier to the community and tells them she's warning them. - She brought them there!
- Let's Javier take the blame for the killings. (In my route, Javier, does not commit the killings.)
- The scouter - Francine - that entered with Clementine and Javier the first time is used as a hostage.
- Clementine saves Javier by shooting the new frontier. Seemingly no one in the New Frontier recognises her.
- Clementine seemingly befriends Gabe in a conversation we do not hear.
- Clementine recommends them to go to another settlement - Richmond.
- Clementine informs Javier that people always leave her. (season 2 determinant choices)
- Clementine in seemingly alarmed by the new frontier taking camp at Richmond.
- Tells Javier that she was a member of the New Frontier but that he should be sympathetic to her by letting her leave.
- Gabe tries to defend her when Javier and Conrad capture her.
- Clementine flips off the New Frontier that recognise her.
- The trade is seemingly going well.
- My reflection on this is that Clementine has been manipulating both Javier's group and the New Frontier to her whims - or at least trying too in my case. There seems to be plenty of evidence that Clementine is not on good terms with New Frontier but that doesn't mean she does not wield similar malicious intent.
The only driving force for Clementine's character motivations that we know other than survival is AJ. The guess I'll make about AJ's status is that they are currently being looked after by a member of the New Frontier and are safe - for now. This is only one interpretation from her facial expressions after hearing Jesus explain that New Frontier has taking over Richmond; Backed up by the lack of motivation to save A.J and her possible membership with the New Frontier.
Since A.J is safe, I believe Clementine is acting on her own fruition. Possibly for survival ... but that's boring. Wouldn't it be cool for Clem to have some little goals set for herself - like world domination? In a more 'realistic' note: What if Clementine's distrust in groups has driven her to a sadistic state of mind. One where she just wants to disarray and destroy every group she comes across. Clementine see groups as fragile and people as untrustworthy - would it really be too far to say that Clementine's only use for other people is to toy with them and crumble their hard-fought communities to rubble.
YES! ... but this is the direction I want to explore with my theory.
Possible Scenario.
Let's say the Junkyard was Clementine's base. The hut could quite cosily fit one person and whoever owns this base must be quite the efficient survivor considering the amounts of supplies. It is not the New Frontiers base as they don't even know about the hatchery. I hypothesise that Clementine has a complicated relationship with the New Frontier. I reason that the new frontier were there looking for Clementine.
Now moving on to Javier's rescue: What is Clementine saved him on purpose?
Assuming David is the leader of the New Frontier and Clementine somehow knows that Javier is part of his family. Could she be using Javier to get to David? Is that why she is manipulating Javier's family into trusting her? To find a way to take down the leader of the New Frontier - David. Most Likely but how would that work?
With this sentiment, we should see that every action taken by Clementine was to manipulate Javier's family into trusting her. Think about it:
- She takes him to a safe community which she turns against them so Javier and her can form a bond when Javier inevitably side with her.
- Offers to help save his family with the facade on wanting a vehicle.
- Dislikes it when he relies on other people's plans - like choosing Eleanor
- Befriends his adoptive son
- Feigns that she is a victim to the New Frontier and needs his help.
Without a doubt, Clementine is manipulating the family. If survival is her only goal, then there is no sensible reason to play with them like this. No, she has something much more sinister in mind. She kills members of the New Frontier and puts the blame on Javier. In a show of good faith leads the New Frontier to the Community and captures Francine. Remember when poor little Mariana gets brutally shot in the head by the New Frontier.
What would the leader do if they lost faith in their soldiers? If a simple raid turns out to kill his long-lost daughter? If his old family betrays him on the word of the ex-member, he let live? It is more than likely that David would run the New Frontier into the ground leaving only Clementine victorious.
Therefore, the smart action to take for Javier is to agree with Conrad, to sell Clementine out as she is a danger to both you and the New Frontier. Therefore, David and Javier can live as one big happy family again and Clementine evil ways will be thwarted.
**End of theory. **(Wish I had screenshot evidence.)
I have given a possible theory for a deceptive Clem in this game. I am sure there could be different circumstances that could lead to a lying Clementine that I haven't suggested; I would love to hear your ideas for those. Also, if you want to give me counter evidence from other playthroughs I'm attentive. The lack of a rewind option really demotivates replaying the game unfortunately so I'll be relying on you guys and some Youtubers.
In the unlikely scenario that this is actually Clementine's true character then I would be overjoyed. Maybe mainly because I would be right, but also that the path my choices had led to wouldn't seem so inconsistent to the progression of the game's plot. Also, the idea of Clementine being the main antagonist excites me - better than overly aggressive alpha males trying to kill the group - again! How did the apocalypse kill all the smart villains?
TLDR
Clementine is a LIAR and is manipulating the player. At least I would like to believe so.
Thanks for reading.
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/817/782/b5a.jpg
PS: Anyone have any good screenshots of Clementine being suspicious.
Note I only assume David will play out in a predictable manner. Although, in my playthrough Javier and David should be on best of terms assuming Kate and Javier don't do the hokey pokey. On another note, there is way too much flirting in this season. Telltale, it's only fun when the player does the shipping.
Comments
Okay, im a little confused. How has this post been up for over a month and got no comments? Normally, if someone writes something negative about her, her army swamps the thread saying how bad the OP is and how she's a good girl.
Anyway
I made a thread about how i couldn't believe so many people sided with Clementine about the Conrad thing because i actually agree that siding with Conrad was the better option. His part of the group and everything Clementine does in that scene is shifty AF. She tries to play the victim yet she's the one who lied about her involvement with the new frontier, she claimed she was forced to go originally, then admitted she went on her own free will. She also wants to leave, why? Why doesn't she want the new frontier to see her? The manipulation thing is easy, because people will get sucked in by her, she shot an unarmed man in cold blood when she shouldve aimed the gun on the ground, she then tries to get Javier to lie about the murder when she should be admitting what she did. The one that struck me was her trying to convince Javier to stay and fight at the junkyard, Kate and Gabe are in danger and Kate was seriously wounded, but she only cares about shooting back? She used to be the big believer about family comes first but now she's changed.
I've thought from the end of playing both episodes that there is something seedy about her, i think if telltale decides to make her bad, it would be the best twist they've done. It would be so good because 95% of players love her and will sell themselves out for her, if she turns out to be bad, the reactions and the choices the players would make would be astounding.
This post has opened my eyes....Clementine is the true evil.
On the issue for this thread having 0 comments: I imagine the causes were it's length, format, and competition.
I am with the opinion that siding with Conrad is the better option:
1. Because escalating the situation further by shooting Conrad will only lead to negative consequences.
2. Clementine is a suspicious character.
I agree that Clementine being the antagonist to Javier would be the most interesting way season 3 could progress. How it would progress after any obvious betrayal though is anyone's guess.
She's definitely evil, didn't you see her try to shoot an innocent bunny?
Well actually no
Me neither.
For anyone wondering, it's actually true. It's at 1:10.
Clementine alone ending aftermath
I never said Clementine was evil - only her ways.
Now excuse me as I welcome our new Clementine overlords:
I am hoping that Clementine's role in Season 3 expands into a similar direction such as this.
Narrative-wise, it makes little sense for a character such as Javier to place all of his faith in a random stranger he only just met, since he has no knowledge of her character that the audience knows perfectly well, and I'm hoping that there will be major consequences for being too trusting towards her since the majority are likely going to favor her over characters that Javier is supposed to care about.
This idea could turn Clementine's role in the story into a test of the majority's loyalty towards her, and have themselves asking whether bending over backwards for Clementine's sake every time would be worth it or not in the long run.
Plausible, but I think it's kind of a reach. Clementine would likely know about the junk yard if it belongs to ANF and she was a member, she seems familiar with the area. She's also got a history with the Prescott residents, why she trusts Tripp over Eleanor I don't know, but that could boil down to history we haven't see yet/won't see. Standing right there with her during the whole Eli bit, I didn't think she intended to kill him, but he sure had no problem trying to drive a knife into my eye. She's clearly got a rocky relationship with the people here so no reason to get him trouble over that douchebag, especially when we're only here to ride out the herd before she takes Javier to his family.
As for NF arriving at Prescott, it could have been any number of reasons considering I doubt if you stay she's still leading them back there, Javier can't be that incompetent not to notice. Tripp is also familiar with the group, he states as much so its entirely likely the NF knows where it's at given their knowledge of the area. The truck driving Javier was going right past it, and its more than likely still in that ditch. Javier is currently wanted by the group for his actions at the junk yard, it would only make sense for them to check. This is doubly true if they interrogated Francine and discovered a new arrival showed up at the community the night before.
Clementine also mentions Richmond, judging by her need for a vehicle and the length of time it takes to drive there, that may have been her destination in the first place and its suggestion benefited her as much as the group if she could get a ride. Jesus mention of his contacts in Richmond and going to check it out because he heard its been taken over makes it seem like this is a recent event, Clementine walking away to have a panic attack or whatever would be counterproductive if she intended to draw sympathy from them, Javiers the only one who even glances over at and she's standing still facing away from them.
Revealing her past affiliation with the group to let him know why she's going to leave would also be counter productive, she could easily have made any other excuse up as she has no obligation to these people, and as far as he knows he was only with them for the vehicle, which would likely be in the hands of the hostile group at that point assuming Eleanor and Kate made it. I really think it's less of a malicious plan and more that she has no further need to travel with them if they're walking straight into NFs settlement. It is an interesting theory I hadn't thought of, though.
What people didn't realise was that killing Conrad has a negative reaction from Tripp, he is clearly devastated and he was lied to about what really happened, telltale most likely won't add that in that lying about Conrad too Tripp will have a impact but it should because when you think about it, players have lied for Clementine shooting a man, stood up for and killed Conrad and lied to Tripp about what really happened.
If you look at it, it's so messed up, all because they're too biased towards her.
My god, a theory that could actually make Clementine interesting.
Nice theory, really. While I wouldn't want Clementine as an entirely evil antagonist, I do like the idea of her motivations not being as pure as predicated with her character or as boring as just being out for survival. Her manipulating Javier and his family is a great idea, as most of the fan base are automatically trusting of Clementine and would be completely off-guard if her intentions were to be in any way malicious. Now, I do believe she should have more of an understandable reason for going out of her way to cause the destruction of the New Frontier, which in turn would be discovered as not being as horrible as they've been presented thus far, but that in her goal to achieve personal vengeance or whatever, the lines became blurred and she ends up gong too far, truly reinforcing that the little girl once saw in season 1 is dead and gone.
Ima go ahead and pick at pieces of this if you don't mind.
Looking at this from another angle, it's possible that she just outright trusted Tripp as a more capable survivor than Eleanor. Clementine would also possess some knowledge of Prescott's' members, having been there for an unspecified time. And we can see this in both scenarios at the junkyard
Also, one of the last walkers that survive can get into a tangle with Eleanor, whereas with Tripp he rushes it to prevent it from getting to Javier.
So it could be argued that Clementine knew that Tripp was a better fighter and would be more capable in combat, whether that be against walkers or New Frontier.
I know you said this is one interpretation, but could you clarify this? If in your scenario, Clementine left AJ with a member of The New Frontier, why would she freak out like she did? If AJ's with The New Frontier and she hears that they have taken over Richmond, surely that would make her happy, knowing that AJ is potentially nearby rather than wherever TNF's original base is.
The problem with The New Frontier being there is that they seem to regard the hut as theirs. They seem to regard the gas in the ambulance as theirs, they seem to think that the food Javi's family ate is theirs. But if the hut isn't really TNF's... Why would they be saying that? For all they know, Clementine might not have been there and this was Javi's home. This whole situation is kind of weird even if the hut is TNF's, though. Considering the manpower they seem to have, they couldn't leave a man or two behind to guard it? And yet they claim all the stuff in the hut is theirs? It's a really weird mess.
I was also going to wave away the argument that this was Clementine's base considering there's almost no evidence to say so other than the fact that whoever lives there knows what they're doing. But you know...
In Prescott with Eli, Clementine brings up the fact that she traded him a crate of batteries. What can Javier conveniently find in the hut? Batteries.
I'd honestly agree with you and say there's more evidence that this place belonging to Clementine than TNF.
The problem with this is that it relies entirely on the basis that Clementine recognised Javier after his rescue. Which I think is a really long stretch, because it relies on the fact that Clementine knew David had a brother and also that she recognised him as related to David, which seems like a really weird assumption to make.
I don't think Clementine knows he's related to David - mainly because she was more than willing to abandon him on the road after she robbed him: "Keep your eyes closed and count to a hundred before you go." She didn't have any plans to use him once she investigated him and the truck and was more than willing to go on her own way.
So... Short of her learning how to play 5D chess in her own head, managing to predict exactly what Javier would say before he said it, I can't really see why she would do this.
I agree, and in actuality think she's doing it largely for AJ's sake (which pisses me off personally since I don't like AJ but whatever) - whether she's intentionally manipulating them out of paranoia or doing so while containing her conscience and excusing it for the fact that it's for the good of her and AJ, I don't think she really cares about Javi and co. Yeah, she can save your life outside of Prescott, but that's just being a decent survivor/companion. There was no decision to be made there.
There's no proof at all to suggest that Clementine wouldn't do something morally bankrupt in order to secure AJ's survival - even at the expense of Javier's. Absolutely none.
Yeah, about the fact that Conrad died, not that it was Javi who did the deed. He doesn't seem to put any blame on him about what happened in the tunnel unlike what Conrad said to Javi on the road, at least not in this instance.
Plus you don't have to lie to him - you can outright say that Conrad and Clementine started arguing and that you had to "Leave him behind."
You have some interesting points I want to explore:
Some disagreements:
Another good point I've just realised is that Badger is the cause for the shooting. Badger would have to convince Max and hide his wrong doings though. As Max had only seen Javier it makes perfect sense why the only person Badger blamed was Javier.
Keep in mind this thread started just after the release of season 3. It uses comedy and theories to explain poor game construction and the biased choices of the community. That being said there is seriousness to this post which considers a darker Clementine.
OMG, why are you putting red in her eyes? She reminds me of Albert Wesker.
She is actualy starving guys... if you gonna starve did you shoot a bunny or die ?
It still bothers me that that punk threw his sunglasses at me.
If it has anything to do with RE5, don't say anything yet cause I haven't played it yet.
No offence intended, but I think you're reading a bit too much into things.
The thing about Eleanor and Tripp, It wasn't really Clementine trusts Tripp, It's that she trusts him more than Eleanor. Tripp comes across as angry and aggressive, but he's honest, I think that would be why she trusts him more. Whereas Eleanor just seems too nice. Maybe it'll turn out that she really is just a nice person, but I think that would be why Clem doesn't trust her. Look at Bonnie in Season 2. When you meet her she seems nice, but turns out to be with Carver. People tend to be really suspicious of "nice" characters in The Walking Dead.
It's very smart of her to fire bullets at the goddamn rabbit.
Why wouldn't you trust Eleanor. She's practically LARA CROFT. You are right though, Tripp is actually more capable at dealing with the walkers. Nice catch with the Junkyard scene -didn't notice that. Although, I don't think Clementine was talking about who was the better survivor.
I don't remember as this was written a month ago but I'll answer to the best of my current abilities. What I originally implied was that Clementine had removed AJ from her life to follow their own goals. AJ being in Richmond fills her with a sense of fear as she can't seem to escape her duty for AJ. It would also put her current plans to ruin Richmond on hold. Other interpretations would of been her worry for AJ's saftey or AJ's tragic demise. I personally now think that it could of been her abode to escape from TNF and it is them that she is actually afraid of.
I love this GIF.
This was a point I discussed with my brother. He thought they were being very suspicious in the way they were acting; almost like faking it. This is an actual tactic that gangs use in disaster situation. They will find a place that doesn't belong them and claim that it is their property. It alarms the previous owners and makes them feel that they are in debt to the gang. In reality though they are just being played. (Actually this has no evidence to back it up - so take this for a grain of salt.)
I'm not sure if TNF's claim is false because on further inspection their is more than 1 mattress, although nice find with the batteries.
Yeah knowing Javier and David are related; that's one of the biggest stretches. She would have to be a meta character to find all that out. I think I explored this idea like that to fit with current theme of my post. I do think it could come up though that an antagonistic Clementine would use Javier in this manner to weaken David. Also, 5D chess; you're thinking to small. What about optimising her stock market shares while figuring out the millennium problems and winning the noble peace prize before the apocalypse even started.
I don't think Telltale are going to use AJ. I think that is why he is missing from the present - so Telltale can focus on Clementine rather than AJ. I do think Clementine has ulterior motives and is not considering the group's wellbeing as much as she should.
I'm still of a mind that AJ might have been left in Richmond for whatever reason, likely after her departure from NF. What exactly she was doing so far away from there, I'm not sure yet, but it came across as someplace she had been, and it would explain her need for a vehicle. I do still think it was an awfully unnecessary risk telling Javier, it could just as easily have backfired though, especially given the company they're in. She just met Jesus, but Tripp had moved towards her in a pretty threatening manner shortly before entering the tunnel where Javier had to physically step between them to keep the peace, and Conrad just lost his wife to a group she was a former member of, and was clearly in an emotional state. In contrast Javier has taken more of a leadership role among the travelers, and is determinantly the one she has the least hostile or outright friendliest relationship with. Him explaining her departure would probably not really shake things up.
The whole Eli thing felt kinda off to me, picking a knife fight with a guy right in front of her while she's holding the gun, I was suspicious after the failure at the gate and argument but at that point I really thought he had as little faith in the bullets working as she did.
That's possible about her feelings on Eleanor, Javier and her did seem to hit it off rather quickly and in their limited interaction she's nothing but friendly and helpful. I ultimately chose trip because there was a large horde outside and it was the middle of the night, and because he seemed more capable.
Badger is definitely suspect, judging from what we've seen from him I wouldn't put it past him to blame the entire junkyard shootout on Javier, then justify wiping out Prescott as retaliation for harboring him, or just outright saying people from Prescott helped Javier. Max definitely seems to be more inline with following the structure set up by David, it'll be interesting to see how that plays out now.
I felt a lot of Clems moments with Javier seemed genuine though, and she's just hesitant in relying on another group of people when she can avoid it and handle herself in the wild. Actually taking her character down a seriously dark and manipulative road would be an even greater departure from what the character was in the first two seasons, which is already kind of a sore spot for some fans. Her at arms length attitude and behavior, if reckless, is kind of understandable after everything we know she's been through, and we've still got her history with NF to cover, but I think having her go Super Jane is a bit premature.
She's a new breed of terminator sent from the past to kill all the humans before they can rise against the machines! The zombies are just a distraction for what is really going on!
This is also how I like to interpret where the season is heading. I wonder if it will extend further though. Not just focusing on meta loyalty but adding a betrayal on Clementine's part. This will make players reflect through their journey of the season and decide if they should act differently carrying forward. One last thing Telltale could do is explore themes of forgiveness. How Javier could work with Clementine despite everything that has happened.
Clementine being too malicious isn't the way I want it to go either. I do thoroughly believe that keeping out AJ from Clementine's motivation is in the right direction to making her more interesting.
Another direction that I could take with my theory: Clementine's motivation is to lead groups behind the scenes for the greater good. This would be why Clementine is being so manipulated towards others. In order to make sure they get out of dangerous situations unscathed. We haven't seen much evidence of this yet; this could be a result of Badger's actions - or maybe Clementine really didn't like Prescott?
Clementine could negotiate with Jesus later on to get TNF to join 'The Walking Dead's comics' society after Javier and co decide to commit mutiny against David. This could result in TNF's actions being turned to better society.
Anyway that's just a rough though. Others can try and make a stronger theory related to this.
This idea could work if done well, especially if it is influenced by Clementine's own choices in Season 2 where the nature of Clementine's 'betrayal' is executed in different ways and in different Episodes.
Clementine betraying Javier would also need to hold enough weight for the vast majority to actually rethink their stance on their relationship with Clementine. I don't necessarily think she needs to cross the line where she's unable to redeem herself, but I do think that she needs to pull of a stunt where the audience is going to have a hard time forgiving her on the spot.
Thanks to @EpicMustacheGuy for helping me edit the document.
The ###### are the same as the numbers in the post's url.
I actually didn't think Bonnie was that nice when we met her. She was sort of polite but she was pretty stalkerish and forceful asking for food and such. She didn't help us at all like Eleanor has been.
Leave him behind is a whole lot different to saying that you shot him.
You obviously didn't see his reaction then.
I seriously don't think this theory is plausible, but believe what you want I guess, I'll just wait for episode 3.
Clem has been a troublemaker since S2. I am starting to find myself hating her now for causing all the hassle
He's all like I got your back Javi and I know you got mine, and I go "No he doesn't he fucking ruined your entire existence and got everyone you care about killed, what the actuall fuck are you talking about Tripp you beta bitch retard!"
Yes. It seems like Clem dislikes women. When she met Kate for the first time, I have seen Clem
looking at her with an ugly face like: another shitty woman again, aka Lilly, Bonnie and Jane.