Is it possible that Telltale is listening too much?
Let me tell you a brief story about a forum that died last year. The forum was the Official Bioware Forums, formerly known as the Bioware Social Network. Back in 2012, it was the place where the outroar over the Mass Effect 3 endings was the most concentrated and the most intense. It was during this time that it became widely known as the most toxic forum on the internet, and was the first time I can remember developers basically being run off of their own forum. The only places that weren't drowning in "Fix the endings" or creepy romance threads were the multiplayer and off topic forums. Essentially, it was round-the-clock negativity for one developer in the place where the fans of the developer were supposed to enjoy talking about the game. A bit of the negativity subsided when they announced the new release that they were working on: Dragon Age: Inquisition. When the game was first announced, it was envisioned to be a story-based RPG with a human lead. During this time, Bioware announced that it was open to feedback, and the developers were a bit more active on the forums. By the time the game came out, it was a story-based, open-world RPG with multiple races that included many different romance options that had specific gates for certain romances and a limite....you get the point. The game became bloated with ideas, and it became a bit unfocused. The game got bashed on the forums for this, and for the developers not focusing on the elements that make a good game solid. The environment on the forums never really changed, and last year, it was decided that the forums were too much trouble to leave open.
What does this have to do with Telltale? Well, I'm seeing the same symptoms on this forum as I was seeing on the Bioware forums. Fan feedback has definitely been accounted for in this game, leading to a game that feels bloated with ideas that are too diluted to be strong on their own. They were torn between fans that were sick of Clem and fans that wanted Clem, so they wrote two stories that can't overshadow the other, because if they did, then one side would be pissed off. What happened in this first episode shows the problem with this. The Clementine segments clashed a lot with the ongoing plot of the episodes, and they were also brief because that would've thrown off the pacing even more. What resulted was Clem fans being pissed about the shortness of her segment, and fans in general being pissed from the weak storytelling that had no real sense of direction, and obvious signs of the story being rushed and shoehorned. What has happened as a result of this so far based off of the negative feedback that has come from that on the forums is episode 3, and presumably the rest of the season, being rewritten. With the demand on the forums for a quick release date as a result of the passes will most likely end with, you guessed it, sloppy ideas and writing with a weak sense of direction, and a game that will fall short for the devs and the fans.
Do you feel that with these examples that it is actually troublesome for developers to listen to the fans that are on their forums, or do you feel this is the case of two devs hearing what their fans are saying while not understanding what their fans are saying?
Comments
I think its a little of both really. I think telltale tried to please everyone, and pleased almost no one.
Telltale wanted to get a new character for people who don't care for Clem, but instead of giving that character his own story they put him next to Clem. Javi doesnt't stand a chance next to Clem, because any game she is in is her game. Had they juat rolled out ANF with just him and the gang and had said "Clem will have her own game down the road" This probably would have worked out much better.
As well I really dont think the upper management at the studio ever really understood the root problems fans had with Season 2. Which for me came from shallow storytelling and short run times. As well as never really showing their work when it came to "Tailored Story".
you just nailed the motive of why Telltale went into this direction. I remember when the anti Clem sentiment was way stronger last year. It wasn't until the release of the first 2 episodes of season 3 that the negativity had shifted from Clem to the reaction of the episodes.
No, the problem is they're listening to only 1/25 of what fans are saying.
So... to the people that give out terrible ideas then?
"We want a Lee flashback"
The extremely negative fan reaction also resulted in subtle and significant changes to the games ending after it had been released. I also felt Inquisition was an improvement in just about every way over DA2, save for companions and sarcastic responses. Varric was a no brainer to take with me, but I didn't really care much for the rest of them, banter was better in 2.
Feedback can be especially helpful when you're releasing a game in the fashion TT does, and you generally get a better idea of where the fan base is in regards to how its progressing, and maybe some scenes that are written but might have ended up on the cutting room floor aren't omitted. There was a big thing when Clems VA had talked about the scenes she'd recorded while working on the first two episodes, given the overwhelming bias players are showing her ingame and elsewhere, there's a chance we might see them in the future as they flesh out more of the events that are building up to the climax of the game. It doesn't help that they were cut from two already extremely short episodes, so if making the episodes so short was by design they at least know it wasn't a good idea.
I just honestly don't feel Telltale is taking any negative criticism into legitimate consideration. I feel Telltale is certainly looking at the negative reviews/criticism but they are not going to do anything beneficial to improve the product from the constructive negative criticism. With that said i feel Telltale will use all the positive reviews and reactions as justification for keeping the product in whatever direction they have.
Right now the problem feels like Telltale is just straight up ignoring fans with their problems with the season. That alone is already terrifying, if they decide to continue the route they are doing and it just get worst they just dig a bigger hole. Think of it like this.
Right now they have 3 episodes left. Lets say Telltale knows about the bad feedback. They decide "Lets not change ep 3 and hope we win them over, if we dont we will make real changes." Now lets say episode 3 comes out, it keeps the same idea, and again, alot of people are unhappy with the outcome. Now you have 2 episodes left to please fans and give them what they want. However, now you have 2 episodes, meaning now you need to merge both into 2 episodes. Now both feel crammed with too many ideas and it just leads to everything faling apart.
So I feel like if Telltale really wants to save Season 3 so it doesn't fall into a pit of a million ideas all thrown together, they really need/needed to start with episode 3.
I get your point, but I disagree. Adding Javier to the story was definitely based on feedback, but I don't think it was a bad call. I really like Javi and his family, plus I love the story. Plus Clementine is still a relevant and major character. Most fan criticisms seem really exaggerated. I love this story and think it definitely deserves more praise than it's getting right now.
Episode 3 will answer your question soon enough.
Listening to fans.....who suggested we have shorter episodes and our choices get rid of in a rushed manner.
I still think Indoctrination Theory would have been much much better than the original endings, since they realized it was pure BS, and it doesnt even matter in andromeda
Dude, this argument and comparison is null and void because it has basically been admitted by a branch of Telltale that they are not listening to fan feedback on this season.
They hear.
But don't listen.
We can't know how they receive feedback, so there is no way to say for sure,but....no, I don't think that Telltale listens too much. I think that problem is the way they fulfill the wishes of fans.
Let's imagine that main character of this game is Javier, because of fan feedback that said that Clem as a PC was bad, because 9-year old girl is the one who turns off wind turbine when she is surrounded by more than capable adults to do that. In that case, TellTale had an idea to create a game witha completely new story in The Walking Dead universe without Clem.
Let's assume that afterwards, Telltale changed their mind (based on plot it feels like Clem could be easily not in the story) based on fan feedback "If there will be no Clem, I won't play this game". That's where they make mistake. They bring in Clementine as a side character in order to please everyone, however that's not what Clem fans want. What would be a better solution is to either not have Clem in ANF at all or make Clem + Javier game like Rhys+Fiona in TFTB. 1st solution would piss off some fans, however it wouldn't be as bad as it is what they've done right now and 2nd solution would please everyone. So, what Telltale ended up doing is that they wanted to kill 2 rabbits with 1 shot and so far the results are not pleasing most of the fans.
However, we have no idea what is going on behind the scenes and what/how impacts decision making/story writing. So, it's all pure speculation.
I’m really afraid, especially because of this long period of silence from Telltale, that, instead of telling the story they initially envisioned, they will rewrite it to appease a very vocal group fans that just hate everything that is not the exactly way they wanted.
If that’s the case, we will end up with a Frankenstein monster that will mix their original plans with the need to appease this people and I can already predict it: not only the same people will still be unhappy, but all the others will be too since it will become a “meh” story at best.
^ This.
My boy Poogers is teaching us.
I honestly don't think they listen at all. I feel like the reason why they chose to make Javier the main character as opposed to Clem was because they were looking to attract new players. A lot of people watch TWD show and a lot of people read the comics, so Telltale knows that there's a big audience out there that they could attract, but if season 3 was about Clementine, then they would have less chances to do that because it has a lot of baggage from previous games. They did bring Clem as a side character because they obviously knew that if they had completely left her out, fans would be outraged. I agree with someone saying that they should make this season about Javier and then release a new one following Clem's story again.
Speaking of Bioware and Dragon Age Inquisiton, I think they did exactly the same thing. They got super greedy. They wanted to bring in new people so bad they completely forgot what made Dragon Age's games great in the first place. What we got was a game that was more of a MMO than a RPG. It was clearly rushed (fetch quests, terrible ending) which is why so many people (me included) were unhappy with it.
So there are eight writers right? So if TTG are listening too much, which they aren't, does that mean they stumbled upon the Kenny vs Jane thread and the writer who was a Kenny fan wrote the Jane flashback and the Jane fan wrote the Kenny flashback? Each hoping to appease the fans of both characters without realising the other killed the other off
No, Bioware created their pet characters for ME3 that no one wanted - Kai Leng and the Catalyst
Telltale created their pet character for TWD3 that at least 90% didn't want given siding with Clem over family - Javier
Neither gave a toss about what the fans thought and they paid for it
Javier = Poochie
Telltale is listening to the positive reviews and feedback, and ignoring most of the negative ones on this forum. Can't say i blame them considering how toxic it has become over here.
Good to know we have a guy with inside information here
Just don't tell the staff. They'll cut my pay.