How did the military fall so easily?
So me and my friends have been discussing how it is possible that the military could have been destroyed so easily by the zombies and how that isn't "realistic" and whatnot. Personally, I think it all has to do with the military somewhat being responsible for the outbreak. The higher ups probably didn't want word to get out that they did this to the people and so they kept it secret from their own soldiers, which in the end turned out to be a mistake, since they were unable to properly assess the situation without a proper briefing. Besides this, soldiers are trained to follow orders, so if a general tells you "Go through the herd and save my dog", you bet most of them would do it without question and end up dying as a result. By the time anyone decides to think for themselves, it would be too late.
So what are your guys' theories about the fall of our military?
Comments
Suicides...people getting sick. People turning on each other when ordered to gun down civilians. Any number of things.
I think the people themselves played a big role in the downfall of the military. I'm sure in the early days of the outbreak there were safe zones that were under martial law. Corrupt officials probably screwed people out of rations and might have even been responsible for forcing people to join them and sending them on suicide missions. Overall they oppressed the people in the safe zones and the people revolted eventually, choosing to take their chances on the outside than being ruled by the military. That's my take at least.
What did Last of Us do differently to TWD that allowed their military to have so much longevity?
Maybe they were taken by surprise.
There was also the mass killing of civilians along with the killing of zombies around the beginning of the whole thing. In the end, the military got stretched thin and overwhelmed by the sheer number of zombies.
On the one hand, plot. On the other, people.
It was shown in Fear the Walking Dead how the military locked up alive people in stadiums full of walkers to keep the infection at bay, kept survivors locked up in the safe zones and generally abused its power. Before people realized that dead people came back no matter what, there were probably a lot of mass shootings as well, resulting in even more walkers.
So basically, the military assured its own downfall by killing everyone. The end.
They skipped 20 years into the future so they didn't have to worry about explaining it anymore.
My favorite theory is that at the beginning of the apocalypse the pathogen killed and reanimated people instantly, but either through a mutation or an incomplete therapy, it became symbiotic, reanimating its host when he died. Makes more sense than the military just losing to zombies. I mean come on. Worst case scenario, bomb them and get to a debunker.
Actually, there is one big major difference. Not everyone is infected, you only get infected if bitten while in TWD everyone is infected, wether by bite or death which plays a major role. One dies, bites the other, two attack one they become three etc....
In Fear the Walking Dead they mostly had the military getting overrun by zombies, which was objectively stupid. A horde of practically brain-dead shamblers isn't going to be able to overrun trained military professionals armed with M-16s and machine guns. Zombies would literally be no threat at all to a military unit, no matter how large the herd.
Most banzai charges against US Marines in the Second World War failed dramatically, with Japanese casualties far exceeding those of the defenders. They failed so spectacularly that by mid war the Japanese had completely abandoned the tactic, preferring to fight behind fixed fortifications, with the exception of instances where a unit had been mauled, was in danger of being overrun, and a 'honorable' suicide (rather than surrender) was the goal for the survivors. I mention that because the Japanese soldiers were as well-armed as their opponents, and unlike zombies hadn't lost the power to think, which would have made them far more dangerous opponents than any shambling horde of groaning morons in TWD universe.
In zombie apocalypse fiction I think a more believable collapse of the military would be for the organization to fall from within, rather than by getting overrun from without. The military gets hit just as hard as the civilian populace by whatever it is that is causing people to get sick and die and turn into zombies, and as civilization starts to crumble many of the surviving soldiers and Marines start to desert, taking off to make their way back to their families rather than sticking around to help strangers in a community that isn't their own. Eventually units vanish as disease and desertion take their inevitable toll, and there is no longer enough people left to keep the zombies away from former safe zones.
There would be an element of realism in that as well I think. In the American Civil War for example Confederate armies were plagued by desertion towards the end of the war, when many soldiers knew the game was up and were worried about family members caught in the path of invading armies. Men who in some cases had spent four years fighting the Union, slipped off in the night to make their way back to family members that they feared for.
On that note I think an interesting TWD protagonist for a Telltale game would be a Marine that stole a Humvee and deserted in the final days of the outbreak, trying to make his way back home to a family in an area that had long ago gone dark. The entire season could be his journey, gathering a group and experiencing tragedy along the way. Of course that would require rolling back the timelime a bit and pivoting away from stories centered on Clementine. Camp LeJeune is in North Carolina, so not too far off from the setting of Season 3.
My friend is a Navy brat and is obsessed with theories about what happened to the military in TWD. One theory he came up with is that several bases locked down and kept their own safe instead of doing anything to help those outside.
I'm an Air Force brat on the other hand, and I know just how crazy and childish some Airmen are. I wouldn't be surprised if the Air Force fell because someone got infected and everyone on one base thought I was a giant joke. That's how my dad and most of the people on our base would act, anyway. It's all fun and games, even after someone loses their eye.
I'm writing a thing, and I actually do have a character my Military Brat friend gave me who fits this description, Humvee included (he calls it Sallie!) except the character is/was a Green Beret.
Me: "Where do you find a Humvee in the middle of a zombie apocalypse?"
Friend: "WHERE DO YOU NOT FIND A HUMVEE IN THE MIDDLE OF AN APOCALYPSE?"
Perhaps they had problem with communications?
I am not familiar with the structure of us army, but unless I am wrong there are various bases around the country and they receive orders from Pentagon.
So it is likely that at some point contact between the bases and the headquarters was lost, the information on how to deal with the threat was innacurate or insufficient and the soldiers had to improvise.
I wouldn't be surprised if several officers had an approach to the situation similar to Herschel's and tried to protect the infected, hoping that a cure is possible. We know that there is no cure but they didn't, not in the early days of the outbreak. Can you imagine how bad it would be for the army if they shot infected civilians?
I can easily imagine the soldiers receiving orders not to hit the infected, because that would cause a major scandal.
As mentioned above, desertion is another factor, they probably realises sooner or later that society had collapsed or was about to, they knew how to survive, they had access to guns so why risk staying when they can leave? Especially when they have family/friends to look after.
Αs much as I like the idea of the military being responsible for the outbreak, I can't help thinking how similar it is to the Stand.
Went home to their families or killed off by crazies.
Thinking about it is a waste of time. It's NOT POSSIBLE for such big and modern army to collapse that fast. And the reason, the threat? Bunch of slow ass zombies? LOL. Teenage Clem killed dozens without a problem.
Some other scenarios would make sense;
Did Kirkman forget how many US citizens owns a gun? His vision is just... ignorant. Big fail.
It's better not to wonder why, just accept it has happened.
At it's worst, it'd be a partial collapse of society. Especially since most people in the military have a college education, which would give them a tendency to be nerds who know about zombies.
Actually, you also got infected if you come into contact with the spores, which I have to imagine is how so many people became infected from the onset. Plus, the infected of TLOU are fast and brutal and can tear through flimsy defenses and could conceivably infect a lot of people all at once, as opposed to slow lumbering corpses who can be foiled by a closed door unless they're backed up by dozens more of their rotting brethren.
So really, it just comes down to the fact that TLOU's military aren't treated like completely inept morons who fall apart at the first sight of trouble.
Read the book World War Z (much different and better than the film, by the way). In that book, many armies were totally unprepared for the unconventional style required to fight the zombies in the beginning. It's been a while since I've read it, but for example, while people are usually trained to take body shots, that doesn't work very well for zombies. Head shots are much harder to hit.
Armies did not all fall overnight, and many were still in existence (albeit using different strategies) at the end of the war, but I think it provides a realistic reason why the U.S. Army, for example, doesn't just go in and level the zombies with one fell swoop.
Maybe they assumed it was a virus spread by bodily fluids and tried to impose quarantines, which led to civilian uprisings, which led to the deaths of civilians and military personnel, resulting in reanimation, resulting in more bites and more death, until eventually the military was impossibly outnumbered.
Plot
Most in the military don't have a college education. That comes after.
Those who don't abandon would be overrun by the combination of civilians and zombies. Our military could not handle a country-wide outbreak.
Personally, I'm tryin to figure out how they managed to defeat to fighter pilots and aerial support.
Again, desertion and eventually lack of a good command structure and supplies most likely. You still also have to have a place to land that is large enough and not overridden by zombies.
"Ah yes! That pharmacy looks like a good place to land!"
They got jars stuck on their heads and died of suffocation as a result. Apart from David because he was drinking beer at the time the ZA started, and Lilly who was in the air force base because...er...she was ALSO drinking beer.
No not question my reasoning. I speak the truth.
The Walking Dead isn't supposed to be realistic - it's a damn zombie apocalypse.
Well, I decided to think about this...here is a plausible explanation.
2003 The US is engaged in Afghanistan and Iraq...even a good number of National Guard are deployed. The virus starts when the U.S. has the least amount of active troops in it's history involved in 2 wars.
So remaining forces are a mixture of reactivated and raw recruits. Order of Battle is screwed up because of this. Remaining National Guards are more determined to protect their homes.
Untested forces finding themselves ordered to shoot civilians leads to massive rebellion and desertions.
The military doesn't work that way.
Troops that are stateside aren't all new to the service. All units, deployed or not, are a mix of people of all experience levels, from privates fresh from boot camp to people who've been in for a couple years to lifers who have multiple enlistments under their built. A unit that is stateside would be no less combative effective than one that was recently deployed.
They're all trained and equipped the same and staffed by similar people, and units don't stay deployed indefinitely. They rotate, so units that are stateside when civilization collapses in The Walking Dead might also be units that were recently deployed to a war zone.
I think it comes down to that fact that there are three groups of people when a crisis arises. Group A: people who will fight for normality and do what needs to be done to keep order, and make sure that civilization continues to thrive. Group B: those who are only out for them family's safety no matter the cost. That means abandoning their posts if they are a civil worker, etc. And Group C: Those who are only out for themselves. They will do what they need to do to keep themselves alive.
Once civilization starts to break down, no matter if its a real crisis or fictional, these type of people will emerge. If there are more of group B than any other group, even those who mean well. They are going to abandon their duties and rush to ensure the survival of their loved ones. And I see that happening with many people who serve in the worlds armed forces.
Spray and pray works against large of groups of humans. Not so effective against zombies who can ignore any bullet that doesn't strike them in the head.
You really can't compare a charge of humans to a charge of zombies.
I, personally, believe that every person who was in the military just looked out for himself and ran away. Thus, the people of the military were scattered and this is why there isn't a specific army, now. Just my theory.
Hmm, looks like a fun little distraction.
Lee, Clementine, Shawn, Katjaa, Carley, Glenn, Lilly, Doug, Mark, Brenda, Danny St. John?, Chuck, Omid, Vernon, Brie, Danny, Eddie, Bonnie, Leland, Roman, Stephanie, Becca?, Tavia, Rebecca, Walter, Matthew?, Sarita, Carver?, Luke, Peter Joseph Randall, Reggie, Mike, Edith, Pete, Norma, Zachary, Oak, David(?), Gabe, Tripp, Eleanor, Max, Ava,
Kenny, Hershel?, Larry, Ben?, Andy, Jolene, Christa, Vince, Russell, Dee, Shel, Nick?, Alvin, Carlos, Arvo, Randy, Michonne?, Sam, Greg, Jonas?, Javier, Kate, Conrad,
Molly, Justin, Nate?, Michelle, Carver, Troy, Jane, Buricko, Randall?, Gabby, Eli
I don't think there's a "logical" explanation. The military fell because the creator of this universe wanted to be able to tell his story the way he wanted. I try not to think about it too much because even if this is a zombie apocalypse (something that is probably never going to happen in real life) it's still hard to imagine that people with training and all kinds of weapons, protection armor and forts would crumble just like that against slow ass zombies. I didn't play The Last Of Us so I'm not exactly a fan (I've seen it on YT), but I find the universe of that game much more appealing and well thought out. It's more scary too because it's the closest scenario to what would happen if there ever was a zombie outbreak in real life. But then again, if all zombie stories would be like The Last Of Us it would probably be boring, so.
Hole
Desertions. Soldiers abandoned their post so they can go home and protect their families
I like your groupings!!!
Thanks! There are a few I left off cause they didn't fit any, though..
Seems logical to me that follow orders without question type of people would have a hard time distinguishing friend from foe when it comes to zombies.
A number of factors would have strongly contributed to the destruction of an organized military effort ( small sects of military personnel do exist in the WD universe ). The initial downfall would be due to a normally positive thing: rapid response time.
The military entered the fray without the benefit of information we, as readers, possess at this stage. They successfully rescued civilians in the chaos of the city, and brought back their wounded. They held their own against the initial threat outside of the walls they established. No one understood the threat from within.
At first it was thought to be the bite that turned them, even in Rick's group, so those that were bitten would've been dispatched by the military. But it was more than that. People that passed due to wounds, infection, and illness turned in the confines of the encampments. Some who couldn't handle the loss of their loved ones, or the stress of the situation lost hope. They checked out of life, and not always with a headshot. This brought more carnage within the once safe haven.
There would've been deserters, maybe not at first, but more and more as their thoughts turned to their own families out there somewhere in this madness and death. People deciding they were better off away from large groups after the bloodbaths that would've occurred during the nights while they slept, people turned, and fed on the unsuspecting refugees. Anyone bitten during those times would've had to have been put down like rabid animals, some while pleading for their lives.
It's a nice thought that it would be easily taken care of by some force of human superiority - advanced weaponry, our own intellect. What people often overlook is that underneath that, we're fragile. Our psyche is fragile. Our physical selves have needs these walkers don't : we have to sleep, to eat, cannot go without water for more than 3 days. We're bound to the same laws that helped us advance as a species over others: the walkers advantage is in wearing us down.