The Walking Dead community is biased and it's a problem
I betrayed Clementine at the end of season 3 episode 2, Yes I did. Now before you guys try to find out where I live to stab me to death let me explain why.
I played the walking dead season 1 and 2 twice and I love Clem, she is one of my favourite character of all time and just seeing her makes me happy BUT...
When I played season 3 I played it as if I were Javier and as if I didn't know Clementine. Which anyone should be doing. Doing this, the only reasonable decision to me was to betray Clem and this is why. Please try to forget anything you know about Clem from season 1 and 2. You are Javier, this crazy lonewolf girl set a trap on the road to cause an accident that could have killed you. When you choose not to shoot the guy she said that she would have. Back at the camp she shoots someone in the head and ask you to lie about it. When the camp is attacked she said to open fire even if they have an hostage. You later find out that she is, or at least was part of the New Frontier. Nothing indicates that you can trust her.
But even if you do, and I did, you still must chose as if you were Javier. All he wants is to take care of his family, the rest doesn't matter that much to him and he is ready to do anything to protect them. He is about to go face a group of mad people and already killed some of them, he also knows that they probably got Kate so if he doesn't have a plan his chances to save her are really small. Conrad as a gun on his son's head and if you try to shoot you take the risk to hit him. Do you seriously think that Javier (NOT YOU THE PLAYER) is going to take that risk to protect that random crazy cold girl with a bad past ? THERE IS NO WAY.
But still 95% of players did chose to kill Conrad, and that's a problem because it means that players didn't play the game in the way that was intended by the dev. The reason is simple, players are biased and can't get rid of their feelings about Clem and everything they know about her. Which we are supposed to do if we are playing another character.
Episode 3 isn't out yet so as far as I know in my playthrough both Conrad and Clem are still alive. But in everyone else playthrough you got 1 more death and Clem left so you are on your own.
Comments
To be fair. The reason why I chose to kill Conrad wasn't because I was siding with Clementine. It was because he decided to suddenly hold Gabriel hostage. Which showed me that he was irrational and unpredictable. And since my Javier is already protective of his family yet also something of a reckless hothead himself, it was in character for my Javier to kill Conrad in that moment.
Telltale's writing made this choice way too simple. Of course it feels bias because she's someone we've known 3 seasons vs someone they've just introduced. Honestly had they not made Conrad an idiot and made him more tragic, giving him a good argument as to why they should use her as a bargaining chip instead of going postal and over the top maybe more people would have sided with him or at least understood
There is no intended way of play when it comes to Telltale games, or any other choice-based games. I do agree that there is a bias in the community ( oh god is there), and that the choice to kill or not to kill Conrad was too easy.
Telltale should've he made a decision to either make Clem the main protagonist, or completely leave her, to not create this dissonance between thinking what Javier would do, and or own real life feelings. Because this IS a continuation of S1 and 2, and they can not ask us to not take that into consideration.
I didn't mean that there is a choice intented by the dev, but taking decision from Javier's point of view and without any knowledge of the rest of the story and characters is the way intented.
It's not really fair to say that players should automatically put themselves in Javier's (a stranger's) shoes, especially when Clementine is still present in the plot.
It would be different if we were actually given a brand new storyline, but Telltale decided to focus on Javi while still involving Clem which was a terrible narrative choice at this point if you ask me.
Your post shows perfectly, why it was a bad decision to move the focus from Clementine to a new playable character. Her story didn't end with Season 2. They should've made her the playable character or didn't involve her at all. There is no in between.
They could've market ANF as a seperate series, like fear the walking dead was for the show, and no one would be as pissed right now. Telltale's misstake was to satisfy the Hardcore Fans, while at the same time bring in new players.
I actually like Javier and his Story, but he gets overshadowed by Clementines presence alone.
Then why did they even include Clementine in the game if they didn't want people to be biased towards her? Majority of the players are old fans, we were expecting a continuation of her story, not a complete new story. Of course we're gonna be biased towards her, she's been with us for longer than any of the other characters. They should have also done a better job at developing the new characters, because I currently don't give a single fuck about anyone else than Clementine. I wish I could view this all as a complete new story, but I can't. I see this as a continuation of Clementine's story, so I have an urge to do things best for her. If she wasn't included in the story though, I would relate to Javier a lot more.
I can live with this. Everything can be better without Javier (and his "family").
I like "crazy lonewolf girls". Remember: Even The Walking Dead TV series has not such a character like Clem (with her backstory). But Javier is such a stereotype ... he bored me so much so I don't care what happen to him.
Furthermore:
The lazy storytelling in season 3 force me to get bored and don't care about other characters except Clem. Because: Old love never die.
While some points as to why you should or shouldn't shoot Conrad are arguable in my eyes, that isn't what I take issue up with your post. I could argue those, but I'm not directly opposed to your view as to your justification for betraying Clem.
Here is what I take issue with:
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If a game or even a story requires you to subvert your natural instincts and beliefs as a player, regardless of prior experiences (S1/S2), in order to play the game 'how it's meant to be played' or for it to be enjoyable, then that's a problem with the game. Not the player.
If you feel comfortable with role-playing as Javier and fitting yourself perfectly into his shoes, then that's fine. But to expect thousands of people to automatically disregard this character who is the singular component that ties the previous games and this one together in favour of characters and situations we have no investment in is naïve and idiotic.
Typically when sequels or prequels of a game or story are made, it is because people were interested in the characters and story that made the original so great in the first place. To not only abandon this in favour of another story which has little connection to what happened before, but to actively work against one of the main characters of the previous games, would naturally make people repulse from the present story and feel insulted that the game is trying it's hardest to force a conflict between the player and the character which you were invested in.
There is NO set way of playing a Telltale game. It's Clem's story and they took that away from us. I'm not changing how I view Clementine (and so won't many others). I'm too invested in Clem and I want to see the continuation of HER story, not some random new dude who I don't give the tiniest fuck about.
Oh and Conrad will die in Episode 3 regardless of your choice.
For the people immersed deep down into the story, who truly empathize with Javier's situation, motivations and thinking, I think it's possible to be realistic and refrain themselves from being biased. Of course there are also people who dislike/hate Clementine and prefer Javier wearing protagonist's boots.
Meh, Conrad's detriment so he's gonna get the axe eventually. Mind as well stay on Clementine's good side. The second that choice came up, it becomes apparent to the player that Concrad's usefulness has come to an end.
He went from being an ok, chill guy to doing everything he can to get on your bad side. It also makes you wonder why he's even trying to help TNF in any way since he pledged to "get those fuckers...". Can't be out of good intentions for Kate. He hardly knows her and blames Javier and co. for all the bad crap that happen to him. There's seriously more reasons as to why people shot Conrad other than Clem. Conrad is detriment, emotionally unstable, irrational, unreasonable, and unpredictable. We're at the mercy of the writers when it comes to this guy.
What
so you mean its our fault
like, i didn't followed my heart during playing this game
or i didn't finished the game in one sitting and had to split into two
or i didn't praised Javier enough, because he's the main character
yeah, its my fault [sobs]
Okay thats perfectly fine and a way to play if you want. But this demand that the right way to play is to pretend we are someone else and forget about the main character of the first few seasons is just ridiculous, we as the player know clementine and care about her and as such we will make choices with that in mind. The community is biased towards clementine because she is a character we care about its ridiculous to expect the community to pretend we dont care about clementine. That doesnt work.
I get what you mean, when playing this game you shoudl attempt to put yourself in the character shoes and care about there family etc. However this takes time and I doubt anyone will ever care about gabe etc as much as clementine.
Edit:
Not really, siding with conrad has tons of problems besides liking clementine
Uh....says who? Im Javier, I decide what he wants, or how much he is willing to lose for his family
Okay, one there is no evidence of this ans two if it was then thats a major design flaw you cant expect your fanbase to stop caring about the major character from the first two seasons
It doesn't matter if someone is biased and you don't need to play it asif you're javi. People play how they want.
A lot of replies are about the fact that the problem doesn't come from the player but from the dev. And I agree, yes it was a mistake to have the player play as Javier and have Clem in the story. They could have continued Clem's story from her point of view or made us play Javier but without Clem around.
But now it's done and they can't come back. Now I wonder how far they are going to go. Imagine for a second that in the rest of season 3 Javier is confronted with the choice of saving Clem or saving both his son and Kate. Would you really save Clem and then blame the dev for being dumb ?
I wont, what's done is done, they screwed up now I move forward and forget about it.
But hey you are free to do whatever you want, if you want to do it this way it's your choice, I am just disapointed that so many people didn't even gave a chance to Javier and are just playing to protect Clem.
Yeah he went full walking dead character with his sudden
"WE HAVE TO DO THIS EXTREME THING RIGHT NOW AND IF YOU DONT HELP ME YOU ARE AGAINST ME"
Javi: Hmmm so i guess the choice here is either do everything this guy says to the letter with no compromise or SHOOT HIM DEAD
That's one of the largest complaints of the season. This entire scenario is a cluster that will end in nothing but anger.
As you say - (mostly) no one would pick Gabe over Clementine under their own agency. As you say - Javier, realistically, has no reason to pick Clementine over his own blood.
That's what makes this so terrible. We care about Clementine. We don't care about Gabe. Yet we're meant to play as someone who feels the opposite as we do. That's why people are saying there's a problem with the game.
It's a recipe for disaster.
Everyone should play however they like it.
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You're going on like you can't replay the game and choose different choices, nearly everyone will side with Clem first. That obvious but everyone will play again and side with javi. I don't get why you're complaining about people sideing with Clem when it their choice.
No offense man, but unless you're buying the game for me so I don't have to spend my money, you really have no right to tell me how I must play it. But yea, introducing a new playable protagonist we've never seen before and saddling him with responsibilities to people he has a history with that are just as much strangers to us as Javier is was a bad idea. At the end of the day if I'm making the choice for Javier, then I'm making the choice for Javier. And I'm going to continue making choices as I desire, I won't force myself to play a certain way because of a poor design choice.
This isn't a TV show, this is an interactive game featuring player choice. Adding a character who would put his family above all else as the person you control, throwing in the main character from the previous two seasons, and saying "GO!" just won't work for a lot of people, because we're not WATCHING the game.
This!
So why the hell are we even playing video game then ?
Yes it matters, the all point of playing video games is to feel like you are the character and to ask yourself what would I do if I were him. The problem is (and yes it's totally a game design mistake) you are not supposed to know things about the story and the characters that the main character doesn't. If you do you are not a gamer anymore but more like a viewer. This is the difference between a game and a movie. The interaction and immersion by choice is the all point of doing a video game instead of a movie. When you don't even try to be in Javier shoes you are not really playing, you are more like watching and hoping that things goes the way you want.
But again, YES the dev screwed up with season 3 so far.
There are more than enough reasons to put a bullet in Conrad's head without being biased towards Clementine. Look up multiply other threads on that topic and you will find some.
B...but...
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Source: https://telltale.com/series/the-walking-dead-a-new-frontier/
Siding with Conrad is a bias in itself too. Every choice we make in our games is a bias as it is influenced by what we think.
I am not complaining about people sideing with Clem. I am complaining about people sideing with Clem because it's best for her, instead of thinking I am sideing with Clem because it's best for Javier.
And when you see the stats 95% of players sided with Clem, it's obvious that not all people sided with Clem because it was better for Javier.
AGAIN YES IT'S POOR WRITING AND GAME DESIGN. But still, it shouldn't be like that.
What the hell's your problem? I bought the damn game I'll play the damn game how I damn well want to. There is no right or wrong way to play a game so get off your high horse and stop telling people they are playing the game wrong.
I disagree.
The whole point of playing a video game is more simpler than that - to have fun.
Obviously, this can be done in different ways to different people, but ultimately if you're not having fun with a game you're not going to be playing it for long.
And I think with ANF, you're getting a lot of people questioning whether playing this game and being invested in the story is any fun.
That's my point, when you are not putting yourself in the character shoes, you are not playing but simply watching. And no Clem isn't the main character, I hate it as much as everyone else and I also think this is the biggest mistake the devs ever made but it is what it is. If you are not playing as the main character you are not playing at all. Better create a game with hundreds of characters and have the player chose who's doing what. But that's not a narrative game anymore it's something else.
Well don't complain about it, it's not your decision. We're not telling you what decisions you HAVE to make because it's not ours to make
Ever thought about the fact that not everyone is into roleplaying? A lot of people play themselves in videogames, not their characters.
Pointing a gun at Gabe's head was enough to make me kill him immediately.
When Conrad said "... and then we all step into the sunshine!" I knew he was crazy and emotional unstable (and dangerous, too). This is the reason why I shot Conrad and not ONLY because I know Clementine since Season 1. Afterall, I was the one that invited Clementine to my group so I had to protect her as a partner, but I didn't invite Conrad to my group. I feel bad that I killed him, but I will avenge for Franschine for him, whenever I get the chance. It would be nice to have him with me, though. I'm sorry Conrad. R.I.P.
It's my game and I bought it with my money. I'm not playing it wrong, you telling me how to play it is what's wrong.
As I said in another comment, imagine that later you have to chose between saving Gabe and Kate or saving Clem. What would you do ? Save Clem ? Even if it doesn't make any sense at all ? Just because it's your decision and no one can tell you what to do ?
I don't think my decision of sideing with Conrad was the right decision, I would have loved to kill him, protect Clem and do everything I can to make her story great. But this is not about me, or what I want, it's about ME IN JAVI'S SHOES. The second you start playing a game (ANY GAME) it's about what would you do if you were the main character.
You can disagree and you can do whatever you want but why are you playing a game then, just go watch the show, or watch someone else play the games.
I'm pretty sure I'm playing, not watching, otherwise one of the many deaths Javier suffered because I had put the controller down out of boredom is canon. But not putting myself in Javiers shoes is not equal to watching, it's me structuring the story based on the choices I am given. Playing the game the way Javier would play eliminates the point of any moral decision, because then I'm not playing the game to enjoy myself or make decisions, I'm playing to try and follow as strict a path as I can. So then what's the point of me making choices at all? Just make it a linear point and click game.
Regardless, I don't care about Javier or his family, and it's not my job to make me care. That's up to the game. I'm not going to force myself to be someone else, I've never done that in the many choice driven RPGs I've played and I never will. Once I start playing, it's my story.
Yes I would save Clem because it's my play through. I don't need to explain myself to you. My choice end of story. And again there is no right or wrong answer