Was TellTale already doomed from Season 2 Episode 5's alternate choices?
Yes this is a choice ridden game. I'll explain.
Telltale is known for it's choices in the story that it creates. I have made a series inspired by TTG's The Walking Dead in where there are characters that have to make a decision through a selection of choices that will shape the story. What I've found out is that making all of these alternate paths is extremely time consuming. Being one person you can imagine that having four choices to pick from and then having to write up all of those choices can become quite time consuming. To avoid the delays of my series, I simply just let the authors choose a route they wish to go in their decision. Sometimes this is through a majority vote, sometimes they can do choose whatever they like in the decision.
A lot of people really dislike 'ANF' and I don't blame them at all. In-fact, Season 2 just starts out pretty much the same. YES you start with Clementine but it's a FRESH START. You don't get to choose if you go alone as Clementine in Season 1, you're always stuck with Christa and Omid. Most of the original cast that you had from Season 1 all but died and if they didn't, they would be pushed into a determinant status.
This is no different from Season 2 of Episode 5. You're set with a multiple of options. MULTIPLE OPTIONS. Do you know how big of a scale that can be and how much work would have to be put into the continuation of that? You'd essentionally have to make seperate stories to make these pleasing. To MAKE THEM MATTER. You can either let Kenny kill Jane or Kill Kenny. Two options now. Okay let's keep going further. Do you decide to go alone with AJ and leave Kenny or Jane? That's a third option. If you didn't kill Jane previously and decided to stay with her, you can let the family in or not, that's another two semi-big choices. If you spared Kenny and went with him, do you go into Wellington or do you go with Kenny?
You see what I'm getting at here? Telltale put themselves into a trap and I saw it coming. They had two years to work on this, honestly for the amount of options you get at the end of Season 2 Episode 5? NOT ENOUGH. If you're expecting your series to all go into the same area at the same time with multiple of options of course you're going to expect fans to be angry. Flash-backs? Alright, let's just think about this for a moment, you have Edith, you have Jane and you have Kenny. They all die within five minutes of playing the flash-back. Why? Because of how deep Telltale put themselves into the alternate choices genre. Honestly from Season 2 of Episode 5 if I was in that situation? Geeze... I'd know we'd be fucked from the start. We could still make a story, but if we were to make it to an acceptable or AMAZING standard, you'd need to basically SPLIT the game. I mean... Come on, how does Clementine get into the same area at the same time with all options given from Season 2 of Episode 5?
Telltale could have given our direction of 'choices matter' in this situation, but they'd really need to work on it. If I had director control over this story, I'd of threw ANF into the toilet. I was have simply not accepted Kenny, Jane and Edith to ALL DIE in a FLASHBACK. Yes, it would have costed more to produce, in fact, a predict a hell of a lot more. The choice for Telltale is, do we care enough to keep working with what we have? Or do we just continue with it and hope for the best?
Let me just give you an example of a decision in my series: http://imgur.com/a/k8zlN
Have a look at those images, do you see how spread out the choices are? If I were to make the series with all these extra points and continue further, it would take absolutely forever. This is what I'm trying to get at with Telltale. These branching paths they've made? Remember when we were all hyped for what our choices would become? It's unfortunate to see how those choices pretty much tarnished what could have made an otherwise great alternate path.
Thank you for reading.
Comments
Exactly. I was really hoping telltale would put the WORK and EFFORT into making a legitimate S3 based off of the unique endings of S2 that was tailored by our choices and endings of S2.
It's incredibly difficult. This is why they opted with a new character Javier. Telltale wanted to bring more fans into the series by introducing him but this is what gets to me...... WHY INTRODUCE FANS ONTO A SQUEAL?! IMO, if you're doing this instead of leading them to the start, you're doing it wrong. Would you... Say play Mass Effect 3 before Mass Effect 1? It'd be silly to do so, you're missing out on SO MUCH.
Cough I'm so beefy with caps today...
Edit: It might of been for more fans, but it was definitely to chuck away the alternate paths. Five minutes of flash-backs with a character we've been with for two seasons anyone?!
That's a bit of a cop out. I understand that its dificult and the difficulties increase exponentially as you add more divergences. But Telltale is not just one person pluging away at a story, they have a team, and 2.5 years to work this out.
As well I never expected 5 wildly different stories for each choice. What I had hopes for was 5 starting points with 5 slightly different versions of Clem for each ending. That would all head to the same spot near the middle or end of episode one.
We got none of that, we got one story with one Clem. That's not good enough.
Yeah, they definitely spread themselves too thin on those choices, looking back. Maybe if they had ended up cutting it down to 3 choices - say, having Kenny get into Wellington with you, letting the family in with Jane, or ending up alone - it might've been easier to manage for them, and they could've continued on with Clem as the main story so that we could really feel invested into our choice this time around.
It would definitely take a lot of work, and probably would've increased the development cycle by another year possibly, but imagine how cool the possibilities could've been if they had truly tailored season 3 towards the ending we got in season 2. And it's not as if they'd have to change up the general vibe all that much, either, since the whole "multiple communities" thing they had could still work. I've got some ideas...
Kenny - Once in Wellington, maybe the both of you could be assigned jobs to do; working up through the ranks and using your own knowledge of surviving in the outside world to help the residents deal with walkers, bandits and supply runs. Maybe you and Kenny bond even further during the course of the story, all the while meeting new characters, questioning your role as caretakers for AJ and eventually starting to establish some sort of trade network with another settlement (could be the Hilltop if you still want Jesus in on that action). Throw in a bunch of hubs and exploreable areas, give us some internal conflict within Wellington (maybe there's a political conflict, or pull a season 1 situation and have a traitor in your midst) to the point where by the later episodes, Wellington's coming unhinged. Then, at the end of episode 4, have Kenny either sacrifice himself or have him killed... just not eaten alive in the same way as the flashback, though. You want that final confrontation in episode 5 to be a build-up against either some of the people in Wellington, or if you wanna stay on theme, maybe have the New Frontier do it, giving you the incentive you need for episode 5 and trying to give a better sendoff to Sir Kenneth.
Jane - This situation's my personal favourite. Maybe I'm a bit biased, but I dunno xD
So... I'm thinking that we could go into two different directions with this one, depending on what the person writing it would want to do, hypothetically. You could either go a similar route as Wellington and have you and Jane reshape Howe's into the community you want, or you could stay for a bit, realize that Howe's isn't going to be a permanent solution for just the two of you, and then leave. Personally, based on Jane's character, I feel as though she wouldn't be too comfortable with the possibility of more strangers coming towards them, especially given her more solitary nature, so for now I'll go with option B.
Surviving alone with Jane would prove to be a little challenging at first. Clem might still be peeved with her about the rest stop situation, and would definitely make for some pretty tense initial conversations/character building. I wouldn't bring the pregnancy thing back because, just no. We want to keep this as a survivor tale, similar to the Last of Us where you slowly build up your relationship with Jane over the course of the story, all the while developing new skills with the end goal trying to find a smaller place that'll keep them going and not round up too much unwanted attention. The point of tension between the two of them could be AJ, who Jane still sees as a burden while Clem (if you choose not to agree with her) could see him as the one normal thing still holding them together. Maybe at some point they travel out west, run into some assholes out in the wilderness, and you as the player make choices that shape how Jane sees you by the time you reach episode 4. And then, when you think that you've finally found the perfect place for the three of you to settle down in, Jane is killed. Right in front of your eyes, same as Kenny. Maybe one of the choices you made pissed off the wrong people, and it's your job to either bunker down and hold out for as long as you can, or try to get some revenge on the person (or people) who did it. Thing is though, at the end of the day, you're still a kid - you'd need to have come across the group with the people who killed Jane and somehow find it within yourself to put your trust in those that didn't want the murder to happen.
Alone - If you wanted to keep things more centered around the New Frontier, I think this ending could be a pretty good candidate. Hell, maybe you go a similar route to season 3 and have them take AJ away from you, and it's your job to try and get back to him. You could stumble upon Javi and the rest of them (honestly, you could put that group in with all the endings), and try to help them accomplish their own goals while also going after your own. On several occasions, since you might not be too inclined to stick around all the time with some of the questionable things going on, you could choose to venture out on your own or with a buddy somewhere before coming back to the main group, solving puzzles similar to those we did in season 1. I'd like to think that Ava could be an inside ally for you within the New Frontier, and maybe by the time episode 4 rolls around, you're trying to get her to let you into Richmond and find the little goofball. I'm not entirely sure what the breaking point could be at the end of episode 4, since killing off AJ would seem a little too dark, so maybe it could be the death of somebody within your new group, or a bunch of them. Maybe by the end, it's just you, Javi, Tripp and somebody else, and episode 5 could be where the choices you make could affect the survival of your remaining group members. How ruthless are you willing to be in order to get back to AJ?
So anyway, sorry for the essay haha! But your topic really had me thinking over all the possibilities of what could've been. I'm not so sure if they'd have been able to pull something like that off, but Telltale's definitely grown somewhat since their season 1 days, especially now that they're trying to tackle different projects besides TWD. I think it would've given season 3 a huge payoff for the longtime fans, though.
watch cinemasins rip TT a new asshole for this. i LOVE it. bunch of fucking lazy writing and now giving a fuck about the game. but hopefully with that dumbass former CEO gone now, maybe TT can prosper.
Awkward, Mass Effect 3 was marketed as being a "great jumping on point" for new fans. That was even weirder than S3's marketing.
I was already aware of that, I still believe playing ME3 before ME2 and ME1 is still very wrong.
Because of the flashbacks, I don't think it was so impossible to make your choices matter throughout the season. All they would've had to do was have Clem be with Kenny or Jane throughout the 10 minute flashbacks, building towards an emotional death scene in episode 5.
I was expecting them to be offed in episode 1, then when they mentioned season 3 took place after a time skip with flashbacks filling players in on what happened between seasons 2 and 3, I had hope. Then they offed them in episode 1 anyway. That was a real slap in the face. It was bad enough for Omid, but Kenny deserved a better exit.
So to actually answer the question: no, I don't think they were doomed from the start.
Telltale was doomed when Vanaman and Rodkin left. Then more employees left for ubisoft and sucker punch and they hired writers with zero skill
No. Telltale had a golden opportunity to prove to everyone that they truly can make player decisions and past seasons matter, but they took the laziest route imaginable (just like their critics said they would). The season is suffering greatly because of their treatment of Clem and the previous seasons, it disgusts me to be honest.
They could have still given us one Clem flashback per episode, but make each one dependent on your s2 ending. These flashbacks wouldn't affect the present day storyline too much except for changing Clems behavior, and we still would be playing alongside Kenny/Jane/Edith/alone for a whole season. It would keep fans on the edge of their seats for months while speculating why Clem isnt with Kenny/Jane/whoever in the present day. Maybe the s2 ending characters were killed by TNF, or kidnapped. Boom, instant motivation for 95% of players to get immersed in the game. But nah, let's kill off some of the series most beloved characters immediately so we can focus on the baseball player love triangle drama. It's like Telltale couldn't wait to be rid of them.
Literally any alternative would have been better than what Telltale decided to give the fans.... Just one 5 minute flashback based on your s2 ending which does nothing but kill off those characters in the most rushed and blatantly disrespectful manner possible. Telltale lost a lot of pull with a lot of fans due to how they handled things.
I feel silly for doubting the critics who knew this would happen the second that No Going Back came out and we knew there were different endings. I feel silly for having faith in Telltale and believing they were above the mediocrity and laziness.
One more thing... Telltale could have avoided a substantial amount of criticism by simply not using bullshit marketing tactics like "Clem will have 42 starting points and all of your decisions from past seasons will matter".
I get that it takes a lot more time to truly make choices have an effect, but they're literally advertising substantial differences for players but not actually putting in the time and effort to make it happen.
I'm not buying their false narrative about past choices anymore. The story generator and Kevin Bruner's "42 starting points" lie are so blatantly disrespectful to my intelligence that I can still hardly fathom that it actually happened.
Even having more than six starting points would be stretching the idea. The variations are incredibly small or indifferent to one another. For 42 starting points, it's a massive boast that even Telltale themselves should've known was full of bullshit.
Thing about the Mass Effect games, you can usually find every detail you need in the game. Even quite a few minor characters can be questioned in a way that they explain their last encounter with you. I wouldn't advise anyone to start with 3, but I'd never advise anyone to start with a sequel. Except this, TT pretty much told the first two games to fuck right off. Not that I'd recommend this game to anyone, just making a point of this.
Yes it is difficult, but that is the product they push. Make it right! Also, they had almost 3 years to get these kinks worked out, but they decided to go to cheap and easy route.
That's what I mean, it's bizarre they even said that.
I would expect it to be an EA idea to market the game as such. After all, as far as I can remember they were the ones who were rushing things already too.
Yeah, using Season 3 as a way to introduce new fans was kind of a dumbass move on Telltale's part. If anything, Walking Dead: Michonne would've been a better way to do that.
It would've been a great excuse to extend it to 5 eps too. So much more story potential there.
Same here.
Very insightful my friend. Very insightful.
Thanks bud