Kenny's focus and presence in the latter half Season 2 had worn past it's welcome due to having offered nothing new to the table besides becoming more unstable and aggressive. By the time the finale arrived I had grown sick and tired of his outbursts and railroading, to the point where I had lost whatever respect I had for him back in Season 1 and found little to no redeemable enough qualities to keep him around any longer.
I'm just not a big fan of hot-headed, aggressive, overly emotional, and domineering male figures. Never really saw the appeal in these kind of characters.
That being said, I will agree that his flashback sequence in A New Frontier was terrible and served only to cut off ties from him to have Clementine continue on her story with a fresh start.
Kenny's focus and presence in the latter half Season 2 had worn past it's welcome due to having offered nothing new to the table besides becoming more unstable and aggressive.
As well as hyping a fight that got a swapped opponent at the eleventh hour.
Personally, no.
Kenny's focus and presence in the latter half Season 2 had worn past it's welcome due to having offered nothing new to th… moree table besides becoming more unstable and aggressive. By the time the finale arrived I had grown sick and tired of his outbursts and railroading, to the point where I had lost whatever respect I had for him back in Season 1 and found little to no redeemable enough qualities to keep him around any longer.
I'm just not a big fan of hot-headed, aggressive, overly emotional, and domineering male figures. Never really saw the appeal in these kind of characters.
That being said, I will agree that his flashback sequence in A New Frontier was terrible and served only to cut off ties from him to have Clementine continue on her story with a fresh start.
I get what you are saying dude yeah fair enough. It's great how we have different views. Think how boring it would be if everyone agreed with everything.
Yeah, I know the game has plenty of examples like that, but it was still kinda testing at a point where I had lost the only characters I lik… moreed and/or was invested in and was left dealing with people I was either indifferent to, didn't give a damn about anymore, or was getting increasingly pissed.
"Hey old man, I'm over here just barely struggling to hold together a group comprised of Assholes, Lowlifes, Children, and Bonnie and you're not helping over here being a bossy hothead--CHILL OUT!"
(Also, the edit button is a thing; sorry for spamming it myself cause of my shitty grammar/spelling at tiems)
I get what you are saying dude yeah fair enough. It's great how we have different views. Think how boring it would be if everyone agreed with everything.
First off ...Kenny is a cold blooded lizard man...so no heat can be had when being held in his scaly arms and talons. Secondly that car looked comfy. Thirdly you know I just post this stuff to drive you guys nuts right?
He was in shelter....hell Kenny kept the kid from the warmth of the fire..yet no one complains about that.
A baby inside a freezing car or being kept warm close to a human body hmm which seems better? I'd go with the latter lol.
Please don't try and be ECIT No. 2! It just doesn't work and come on now that's a form of persucution saying the stuff you say deliberately is to drive us nuts.
First off ...Kenny is a cold blooded lizard man...so no heat can be had when being held in his scaly arms and talons. Secondly that car looked comfy. Thirdly you know I just post this stuff to drive you guys nuts right?
Please don't try and be ECIT No. 2! It just doesn't work and come on now that's a form of persucution saying the stuff you say deliberately is to drive us nuts.
Show a bit of decorum
found little to no redeemable enough qualities to keep him around any longer.
How is being selfless not a redeeming quality?
He rescued Christa from certain death by jumping into the hole she was stuck in, fully knowing he would be trapped instead of her or tried to save Ben when he became trapped in an alleyway. Despite never getting along with Ben, knowing that he is the reason that his family was dead. (Even though this is from the Season 1)
Kenny selflessly took the blame for stealing the radio in order to protect Clementine. Which resulted in him losing a left eye.
Kenny helped Rebecca with her pregnancy
People who hate Kenny, don't understand his character really well. Inside that hot-headed, stubborn, overly emotional man is a general likable and caring man.
Personally, no.
Kenny's focus and presence in the latter half Season 2 had worn past it's welcome due to having offered nothing new to th… moree table besides becoming more unstable and aggressive. By the time the finale arrived I had grown sick and tired of his outbursts and railroading, to the point where I had lost whatever respect I had for him back in Season 1 and found little to no redeemable enough qualities to keep him around any longer.
I'm just not a big fan of hot-headed, aggressive, overly emotional, and domineering male figures. Never really saw the appeal in these kind of characters.
That being said, I will agree that his flashback sequence in A New Frontier was terrible and served only to cut off ties from him to have Clementine continue on her story with a fresh start.
Kenny selflessly took the blame for stealing the radio in order to protect Clementine. Which resulted in him losing a left eye.
Which happened because Kenny had placed Clementine in harms way to begin with by forcing her to take the radio, whether she wanted incriminating evidence on her or not. Had Kenny not been around to take the blame for the radio theft, anything could have happened to her and it would be on Kenny if Clementine was punished severely for something she had wanted no part of.
People who hate Kenny, don't understand his character really well. Inside that hot-headed, stubborn, overly emotional man is a general likable and caring man.
I understand his character fully well, that he's loyal, likable, and caring for the most part so as long as he expects Lee to have his back at all times, and so as long as he gets his way. Sometimes his more redeeming qualities comes with a price ('you have my back, and I have yours' deal) rather than out of goodwill, and Kenny's hot-headed and emotions prevents him from being diplomatic enough to understand that not everyone will agree with him, and thus he comes across as far too childish and aggressive when it's not warranted.
Sometimes his plans even puts those he loves in danger due to not planning ahead as a leader should, and he relies far too much on luck when it comes to reaching an end goal that should be realistically impossible to achieve. There's taking a big risk for the greater good, and then there's outright gambling with people's lives for a end result that may not even exist in the first place.
He does have redeemable qualities where he has moments of selflessness, sure, such as rescuing Christa/Ben or helping Rebbeca give birth to AJ. But they're not enough for me to consider him a redeemable individual, let alone a likable character.
found little to no redeemable enough qualities to keep him around any longer.
How is being selfless not a redeeming quality?
* … moreHe rescued Christa from certain death by jumping into the hole she was stuck in, fully knowing he would be trapped instead of her or tried to save Ben when he became trapped in an alleyway. Despite never getting along with Ben, knowing that he is the reason that his family was dead. (Even though this is from the Season 1)
* Kenny selflessly took the blame for stealing the radio in order to protect Clementine. Which resulted in him losing a left eye.
* Kenny helped Rebecca with her pregnancy
People who hate Kenny, don't understand his character really well. Inside that hot-headed, stubborn, overly emotional man is a general likable and caring man.
Which happened because Kenny had placed Clementine in harms way to begin with by forcing her to take the radio, whether she wanted incriminating evidence on her or not. Had Kenny not been around to take the blame for the radio theft, anything could have happened to her and it would be on Kenny if Clementine was punished severely for something she had wanted no part of.
So? The point is that he was the only one that took the blame when others that supposedly cared about her didn't speak up to protect her.
you have my back, and I have yours' deal) rather than out of goodwill,
And this is a zombie apocalypse where people you are with should have each others backs. I suppose Kenny saving Lee at the drugstore wasn't in goodwill? Or fixing up the RV for the group? Or the hunting trips in the woods to find food for "everyone" and not just his family? Or the trips to the drugstore? Also if i had saved Lee and the guy didn't at least have my back later on with something important or life threatening then I would be pretty pissed off as well so I don't blame Kenny one bit.
He does have redeemable qualities where he has moments of selflessness, sure, such as rescuing Christa/Ben or helping Rebbeca give birth to AJ. But they're not enough for me to consider him a redeemable individual, let alone a likable character.
So what would ever be enough for people like yourself then? You want someone who is always nice as pie to you which btw is an unrealistic human trait especially in a ZA? Someone that disagrees with you "politely" instead of the way Kenny disagrees which i personally see as honest? Lol. Genuine questions by the way because i'd really love to knowz
And Rich i am not posting any of this in a hostile way before you take it the wrong way ok?
Kenny selflessly took the blame for stealing the radio in order to protect Clementine. Which resulted in him losing a left eye.
Whic… moreh happened because Kenny had placed Clementine in harms way to begin with by forcing her to take the radio, whether she wanted incriminating evidence on her or not. Had Kenny not been around to take the blame for the radio theft, anything could have happened to her and it would be on Kenny if Clementine was punished severely for something she had wanted no part of.
People who hate Kenny, don't understand his character really well. Inside that hot-headed, stubborn, overly emotional man is a general likable and caring man.
I understand his character fully well, that he's loyal, likable, and caring for the most part so as long as he expects Lee to have his back at all times, and so as long as he gets his way. Sometimes his more redeeming qualities comes with a price ('you have my back, and I ha… [view original content]
So? The point is that he was the only one that took the blame when others that supposedly cared about her didn't speak up to protect her.
From what I understood, the others besides Mike didn't know that Kenny had placed incriminating evidence on Clementine and had no reason to want to take the blame for her sake. As for Mike, it's likely because he had little to no incentive for taking the blame for something he didn't do, and that he barely knew Kenny and Clementine enough to consider covering for them.
My point is that Kenny's moment to take the heat falls flat due to him setting Clementine up in a dangerous position that could have gotten her hurt or killed, and since Clementine has the option to state that she does not want to carry incriminating evidence, it makes Kenny appear indifferent to her well-being by forcing her to take them regardless of what she wants.
And this is a zombie apocalypse where people you are with should have each others backs. I suppose Kenny saving Lee at the drugstore wasn't in goodwill? Or fixing up the RV for the group? Or the hunting trips in the woods to find food for "everyone" and not just his family? Or the trips to the drugstore? Also if i had saved Lee and the guy didn't at least have my back later on with something important or life threatening then I would be pretty pissed off as well so I don't blame Kenny one bit.
I was referring to Kenny's change in attitude and team support during the events in Starved for Help back in Season 1. He has been supportive and helpful beforehand out of goodwill, but after the meat locker incident, Kenny's 'you have my back, and I have yours' motto started to take top priority above common sense.
Because Lee didn't support Kenny's plan to kill Larry in front of his daughter, it was justifiable for Kenny to allow Lee to be killed by Danny St. John? Because Lee chose to put a dying and screaming woman out of her misery instead of using her as bait, it was justifiable for Kenny to ignore Lee and let him push the walkers away on his own when he may not have enough strength to do and could have easily died right there and then? In both of these instances, if Lee was killed, how was he going to explain to Clementine and everyone else that Lee died because Kenny stood there, watched, and did nothing to help Lee?
And then there's Kenny's initial refusal to help look for Clementine because he was more concerned about counting the number of times Lee didn't support Kenny enough, and needs convincing to help save a little girl Kenny has known for some time. Had the boat theft not happened, Kenny likely would have stuck with his guns and continued to refuse to help Lee rescue Clementine over a petty grudge he has for Lee, and considering that Kenny was a father, I found it rather abhorrent that Kenny had little prioritized Lee's loyalty to Kenny over rescuing a child.
So what would ever be enough for people like yourself then? You want someone who is always nice as pie to you which btw is an unrealistic human trait especially in a ZA? Someone that disagrees with you "politely" instead of the way Kenny disagrees which i personally see as honest? Lol. Genuine questions by the way because i'd really love to knowz
I expect a person to be flawed as everyone is in a zombie apocalypse and I can learn to tolerate their negative qualities so as long as they're not dangerous qualities. But when a person refuses to learn from their mistakes and bad habits, continue to act antagonistic towards team members without much self control, consistently carry the 'my way or the highway' stance and refuses to be diplomatic and reasonable, and then actively tries to kill a team member with no proof of them having committed a crime, I would want nothing to do with them as they would be a huge threat to my friends and my own survival.
Which happened because Kenny had placed Clementine in harms way to begin with by forcing her to take the radio, whether she wanted incrimina… moreting evidence on her or not. Had Kenny not been around to take the blame for the radio theft, anything could have happened to her and it would be on Kenny if Clementine was punished severely for something she had wanted no part of.
So? The point is that he was the only one that took the blame when others that supposedly cared about her didn't speak up to protect her.
you have my back, and I have yours' deal) rather than out of goodwill,
And this is a zombie apocalypse where people you are with should have each others backs. I suppose Kenny saving Lee at the drugstore wasn't in goodwill? Or fixing up the RV for the group? Or the hunting trips in the woods to find food for "everyone" and not just his family? Or the trips to the drugstore? Also if i had saved Lee and the guy didn't at l… [view original content]
From what I understood, the others besides Mike didn't know that Kenny had placed incriminating evidence on Clementine and had no reason to want to take the blame for her sake. As for Mike, it's likely because he had little to no incentive for taking the blame for something he didn't do, and that he barely knew Kenny and Clementine enough to consider covering for them.
Fair enough you have a point actually about the others not knowing about the radio. See? I can be reasonable with you at times.
My point is that Kenny's moment to take the heat falls flat due to him setting Clementine up in a dangerous position that could have gotten her hurt or killed, and since Clementine has the option to state that she does not want to carry incriminating evidence, it makes Kenny appear indifferent to her well-being by forcing her to take them regardless of what she wants.
And if she tells him no, yes he still goes ahead with it but apologises and says it's the only way and i get why he forced it onto her because it was a desperate situation. I can see what you are saying but it was still decent of him to protect her when things went wrong and even you can admit that. The real person to blame was Luke as the plan would most likely have worked if he hadn't done what he did. I still support the plan that Clem was the best person to take the radio to him anyway:
And if Clem asks why doesn't Kenny take the radio he says:
And it's true! Mike didn't know who Luke was as he wasn't at Carver's when the cabin group were first there, also Luke wouldn't know who he was either. Clem did know him though. Also it's less likely a kid would be focused on for suspicion than an adult sneaking around to try and get the radio to Luke, also she can hide easier if something went wrong.
I was referring to Kenny's change in attitude and team support during the events in Starved for Help back in Season 1. He has been supportive and helpful beforehand out of goodwill, but after the meat locker incident, Kenny's 'you have my back, and I have yours' motto started to take top priority above common sense.
I wouldn't say it was above common sense at all in my opinion., certainly not some of it. If you save someone's life, goodwill or not, you would expect them to be grateful and have your back when they need you. I know I would want that. So for a guy to ignore this and to go against the man who saved your life to then risk putting everyone else's life in danger which could have exacerbated things greatly, it's understandable to feel strongly about someone like that especially if he had also sided with Larry over the whole Duck situation. That's even worse obviously.
I'd like to also point out that Kenny had Lee's back when they first met Omid and Christa when not being sure if they were dangerous or not, he tells Lee if anything happens then they won't let them escape and that was regardless of the meat locker scene. He was also still willing to take Lee and Clem onto the boat regardless of the past choice. There are other times I'm sure.
Because Lee didn't support Kenny's plan to kill Larry in front of his daughter, it was justifiable for Kenny to allow Lee to be killed by Danny St. John?
Kenny looked more scared than not wanting to help but even so its no different than the danger Lee was putting everyone in trying to help an assumed racist man (who would shit on Lee if it was the other way around). If Larry had turned they'd have been killed. So yeah i get why he felt that way.
Because Lee chose to put a dying and screaming woman out of her misery instead of using her as bait, it was justifiable for Kenny to ignore Lee and let him push the walkers away on his own when he may not have enough strength to do and could have easily died right there and then?
You and i both know that Kenny does that if you did or didn't shoot the woman as it was down to the meat locker choice why he did that. Again think what you like but i don't blame him at all because as i said, Lee was determinantely putting everyone in danger trying to save a man who even if revived would have needed immediate medical care that they didn't have and going back to what i said about feeling pissed off if i saved someone's life and then he goes and puts my life at risk to save a man who nearly killed him in the beginning, a man who didn't deserve to be revived quite frankly. Yeah I wouldn't be friends with him after that.
if Lee was killed, how was he going to explain to Clementine and everyone else that Lee died because Kenny stood there, watched, and did nothing to help Lee?
Ha, Lee wouldn't have even been around to that point if Kenny hadn't saved him at the drugstore so that's invalid to me. But seeing as you want an answer, he'd probably do what anyone would do to spare the feelings of others and lie about it but seeing as Kenny has always been truthful around everyone he's been with, who knows? It never happened so the ifs and buts don't matter here.
Had the boat theft not happened, Kenny likely would have stuck with his guns and continued to refuse to help Lee rescue Clementine over a petty grudge he has for Lee,
I wouldn't call it a petty grudge if someone puts your life in danger or if said person also wants to help throw your son out to the walkers. I also disagree because he was quite willing for them to get on the boat regardless of their relationship such as when they were discussing the numbers on the boat. Another reason i would argue that Kenny didn't necessarily need to go with Lee is because everyone thought at first that it was Vernon who took her and as they assumed it was him, you'd think that at the least after getting to know Vernon that he and his crew wouldn't have hurt Clem so she wouldn't be in immediate danger. Even if he refuses to go with Lee he says that he hopes you find her and he'll get the boat out onto the water so he was STILL willing to take them but i suppose he is still a villain in yours and other eyes yeah? Of course he is because your minds are made up as is mine!
Also if it was me, i would want to make sure the boat was safe and guarded as it was as equally as important for everyone and if a group of people were already going to look for her then why do they need everyone? Kenny helps find Clementine no matter what after they get back from Vernon's anyway so i think its petty for people to make a big thing about it if he didn't go. It's not my fault people didn't remind him about family, the one thing that was important to him. Reminding him what you had done for his family in the past.
Kenny had little prioritized Lee's loyalty
Lee's loyalty? But he couldn't have been loyal if he had done those things to be against him. What are you saying? Lee determinantely wasn't loyal at all when it mattered the most.
Im not going to argue about this anymore because it always ends badly and believe it or not im sick of repeating myself sometimes. I didn't even intend to get into all this, it just happened.
I expect a person to be flawed as everyone is in a zombie apocalypse and I can learn to tolerate their negative qualities so as long as they're not dangerous qualities. But when a person refuses to learn from their mistakes and bad habits, continue to act antagonistic towards team members without much self control, consistently carry the 'my way or the highway' stance and refuses to be diplomatic and reasonable, and then actively tries to kill a team member with no proof of them having committed a crime, I would want nothing to do with them as they would be a huge threat to my friends and my own survival
You will never see or understand the way i see his character and i won't with you either. I disagree with everything you said above obviously. I stand by my views that his hostile nature is him being an honest asshole about things, he tells you what others don't have the balls to say, something i have always respected. His flaws are apparent and not always great but his heart has always been in the right place. Every single time he was "dangerous" or whatever, he always had reason for it, sometimes good, sometimes not but always in the interest of group in my opinion. He is someone that i will always trust, he would be someone I would most likely need to calm down at times (my Lee was what he needed in Season 2), and going through his troubles I would be the type of person who would want to try and help him, at least keep him happy.
Have a great weekend Rich. I probably won't reply or at least for a while
So? The point is that he was the only one that took the blame when others that supposedly cared about her didn't speak up to protect her.
… more
From what I understood, the others besides Mike didn't know that Kenny had placed incriminating evidence on Clementine and had no reason to want to take the blame for her sake. As for Mike, it's likely because he had little to no incentive for taking the blame for something he didn't do, and that he barely knew Kenny and Clementine enough to consider covering for them.
My point is that Kenny's moment to take the heat falls flat due to him setting Clementine up in a dangerous position that could have gotten her hurt or killed, and since Clementine has the option to state that she does not want to carry incriminating evidence, it makes Kenny appear indifferent to her well-being by forcing her to take them regardless of what she wants.
And this is a zombie apocalypse where people you are with … [view original content]
Kenny was trouble to those that couldn't accept his honest views despite his asshole nature. He spoke his mind and because of that, certain people hate it lol
From what I understood, the others besides Mike didn't know that Kenny had placed incriminating evidence on Clementine and had no reason to … morewant to take the blame for her sake. As for Mike, it's likely because he had little to no incentive for taking the blame for something he didn't do, and that he barely knew Kenny and Clementine enough to consider covering for them.
Fair enough you have a point actually about the others not knowing about the radio. See? I can be reasonable with you at times.
My point is that Kenny's moment to take the heat falls flat due to him setting Clementine up in a dangerous position that could have gotten her hurt or killed, and since Clementine has the option to state that she does not want to carry incriminating evidence, it makes Kenny appear indifferent to her well-being by forcing her to take them regardless of what she wants.
And if she tells him no, yes he still goes ahead with it but ap… [view original content]
Yeah he flagged "them" down. Luke probably managed to speak to everyone as a group, not Mike individually though. He hadn't met Mike before this encounter before and we know this because Reggie was telling everyone who Mike was. I think the main point was that Kenny wanted to trust Clem more than Mike as he doesn't even know Luke apart from that one encounter they had.
And it's true! Mike didn't know who Luke was as he wasn't at Carver's when the cabin group were first there
He does mention being there when Luke flagged them down. Still, Clementine being a smaller target is a good point.
And it's true! Mike didn't know who Luke was as he wasn't at Carver's when the cabin group were first there, also Luke wouldn't know who he was either. Clem did know him though. Also it's less likely a kid would be focused on for suspicion than an adult sneaking around to try and get the radio to Luke, also she can hide easier if something went wrong.
Clementine was caught while looking for Luke in the comic book store by Troy, who will have already seen her loitering around in a restricted area beforehand. That alone would have already aroused suspicion, and Clementine was lucky that Troy haven't had the idea to strip her down right there and then, because if he had he would have noticed the radio she was carrying.
Because Clementine and Luke was easily caught, the radio plan turned out to be too big of a risk to carry out, and having a little girl as a participant only proved that even a child wasn't able to hide or smuggle a radio without being caught.
You and i both know that Kenny does that if you did or didn't shoot the woman as it was down to the meat locker choice why he did that. Again think what you like but i don't blame him at all because as i said, Lee was determinantely putting everyone in danger trying to save a man who even if revived would have needed immediate medical care that they didn't have and going back to what i said about feeling pissed off if i saved someone's life and then he goes and puts my life at risk to save a man who nearly killed him in the beginning, a man who didn't deserve to be revived quite frankly. Yeah I wouldn't be friends with him after that.
Even if Lee did oblige and did what Kenny said at the time, Kenny would still refuse to help free him from the walkers minutes later, solely because of the meat locker incident. This just tells me that Kenny's grudge towards Lee means that there are no second chances and that he was willing to let him die for a past action, even if he tries to redeem himself in his eyes.
And the reason why Lee would try to risk his life for a man who tried to have him killed was to prove to Larry and Lilly that Lee is not the criminal he makes him out to be, and that saving his life as opposed to killing him would be far more beneficial considering that his daughter is right there to witness the entire thing and was already informed of who Lee was. Helping Kenny kill Larry would also serve to cause more friction in the group, since Lilly likely was left with the thought in her mind that two of her group members conspired to kill her father when he was vulnerable and may have been saved had circumstances been different.
Ha, Lee wouldn't have even been around to that point if Kenny hadn't saved him at the drugstore so that's invalid to me. But seeing as you want an answer, he'd probably do what anyone would do to spare the feelings of others and lie about it but seeing as Kenny has always been truthful around everyone he's been with, who knows? It never happened so the ifs and buts don't matter here.
They do matter, because at the end of the day, had Lee died by chance in the drugstore when Kenny chooses to not save him in Episode 3, Lee's death will be on Kenny for his inaction. And if Kenny returned without Lee, everyone will wonder where he is, especially Lee's caretaker Clementine. Whether or not Kenny lies, it doesn't chance the fact that Kenny will have indirectly caused Lee to die over a disagreement.
Also if it was me, i would want to make sure the boat was safe and guarded as it was as equally as important for everyone and if a group of people were already going to look for her then why do they need everyone? Kenny helps find Clementine no matter what after they get back from Vernon's anyway so i think its petty for people to make a big thing about it if he didn't go. It's not my fault people didn't remind him about family, the one thing that was important to him. Reminding him what you had done for his family in the past.
My point is that Kenny's plan to take the boat was now rendered moot due to the theft, but if the theft haven't happened and considering that Kenny either requires near-perfect loyalty or persuasion for him to help find Clementine, I can't see him making his own initiative to help save Clementine without a price tag attached to it.
If a person requires the right kind of persuasion to help rescue a little girl, or demands your loyalty in exchange for friendship, and refuses to help when either of those terms are not met, then that's not being a team-player or being selfless, it's the opposite. And if the theft haven't happened, who to say that Kenny would still prioritize the boat over rescuing Clementine?
Lee's loyalty? But he couldn't have been loyal if he had done those things to be against him. What are you saying? Lee determinantely wasn't loyal at all when it mattered the most.
There's a ranking system where Kenny is very demanding on asking for your loyalty in exchange for him helping Lee out. The opportunity for Kenny to help Lee save Clementine without being persuaded is very slim, which means that Lee basically has to agree with Kenny on almost everything, and if he falters at least once or twice, he loses points and will miss out on Kenny's aid unless he persuades him.
The point here is that Kenny is demanding for Lee's loyalty to the point where it's unreasonable, as he simply cannot accept a couple of disagreement without losing respect for Lee and will not budge to help find Clementine unless Lee successfully persuades him, and even then it's all down to saying the right words.
Another point that makes me annoyed at Kenny is his decision to not help Lee unless he's loyal enough, which is right after Lee was bitten by a walker. Lee's a dead man walking, and Kenny can refuse his last wish to help find Clementine unless persuaded or extremely loyal.
Im not going to argue about this anymore because it always ends badly and believe it or not im sick of repeating myself sometimes. I didn't even intend to get into all this, it just happened.
Which is fine by me, since it was your choice to post a comment on this topic at the end of the day.
From what I understood, the others besides Mike didn't know that Kenny had placed incriminating evidence on Clementine and had no reason to … morewant to take the blame for her sake. As for Mike, it's likely because he had little to no incentive for taking the blame for something he didn't do, and that he barely knew Kenny and Clementine enough to consider covering for them.
Fair enough you have a point actually about the others not knowing about the radio. See? I can be reasonable with you at times.
My point is that Kenny's moment to take the heat falls flat due to him setting Clementine up in a dangerous position that could have gotten her hurt or killed, and since Clementine has the option to state that she does not want to carry incriminating evidence, it makes Kenny appear indifferent to her well-being by forcing her to take them regardless of what she wants.
And if she tells him no, yes he still goes ahead with it but ap… [view original content]
And it's true! Mike didn't know who Luke was as he wasn't at Carver's when the cabin group were first there, also Luke wouldn't know who he … morewas either. Clem did know him though. Also it's less likely a kid would be focused on for suspicion than an adult sneaking around to try and get the radio to Luke, also she can hide easier if something went wrong.
Clementine was caught while looking for Luke in the comic book store by Troy, who will have already seen her loitering around in a restricted area beforehand. That alone would have already aroused suspicion, and Clementine was lucky that Troy haven't had the idea to strip her down right there and then, because if he had he would have noticed the radio she was carrying.
Because Clementine and Luke was easily caught, the radio plan turned out to be too big of a risk to carry out, and having a little girl as a participant only proved that even a child wasn't able to hide or smuggle a rad… [view original content]
are we having kenny's funeral here or smthn
hey i do miss him tho!! I felt if he was still alive he'd always be right by clem's side. he was a loyal asf dude
he will be missed </3 ,,
Clementine was caught while looking for Luke in the comic book store by Troy, who will have already seen her loitering around in a restricted area beforehand. That alone would have already aroused suspicion, and Clementine was lucky that Troy haven't had the idea to strip her down right there and then, because if he had he would have noticed the radio she was carrying.
Because Clementine and Luke was easily caught, the radio plan turned out to be too big of a risk to carry out, and having a little girl as a participant only proved that even a child wasn't able to hide or smuggle a radio without being caught.
Except that had Luke have been there when she entered the comic book store, she'd have given him the radio "before" Troy found her and if he had searched her would have found nothing then and Luke would have stayed hidden, so again the plan to have Clem take the radio WOULD have worked if it wasn't for Luke's recklessness and it turned out that giving Clem the radio would have been the right decision as Mike/Kenny were both being closely watched by Troy and wouldn't have been able to slip past Troy were as Clem could (waits for yet another differing response? Lol)
Even if Lee did oblige and did what Kenny said at the time, Kenny would still refuse to help free him from the walkers minutes later, solely because of the meat locker incident. This just tells me that Kenny's grudge towards Lee means that there are no second chances and that he was willing to let him die for a past action, even if he tries to redeem himself in his eyes.
Kenny: "They were everywhere, you handled yourself didn't ya?" I know it's not the point but he did handle himself in the end. Once again though, second chances or not, the life or death moment in the meat locker proved extremely personal to Ken and rightly so. Im not saying it was a good thing he did choosing not to help though but im not going to hate him for it based on a "this or that could have happened" scenario when nothing did.
If however he had died, i would have looked at the scene very differently.
Also when Kenny was grabbed by the walker in Around Every Corner, i suppose if the player chooses not to shoot the walker, that doesn't count as leaving him to die to you does it just because we are the player that chooses this? Because to me I would compare that as just as bad as Kenny's action if the choice wasn't determinant.
And the reason why Lee would try to risk his life for a man who tried to have him killed was to prove to Larry and Lilly that Lee is not the criminal he makes him out to be
Lol Larry would still have treated him like shit just as he did with everyone, even his own daughter, that i am sure of and would be very surprised if otherwise. Proving to someone that they aren't a criminal whilst being in an extremely dangerous situation at the time was not appropriate at all given that in moments he could have had his face ripped off.
and that saving his life as opposed to killing him would be far more beneficial considering that his daughter is right there to witness the entire thing and was already informed of who Lee was.
Except that sparing someone's feelings or trying to show someone is good was not a priority at that moment. As sad as it was for Lilly, Larry would have died anyway. As i said before, if Larry had been revived, he would have been extremely ill, needed medical assistance, hooked up to a ventilator, stuff that they didn't have. If you have ever seen a heart attack victim be revived like i have in real life you would see what i mean, they don't just miraculously recover. Sadly for Lilly, he was dead either way.
Helping Kenny kill Larry would also serve to cause more friction in the group, since Lilly likely was left with the thought in her mind that two of her group members conspired to kill her father when he was vulnerable
Yes it definitely had an impact and caused friction within the group, this i agree with. But again as said above, there was no way avoiding Larry's death. Trust me i wish it had been done differently because it wasn't a pleasant scene and i am someone who despised Larry! But I really feel the group wouldn't have got out of there if my Lee and Kenny hadn't done what they did and it was all done out of fear and not in anyway to be cruel to Lilly or Larry.
I'd also like to point out that despite what Kenny and determinant Lee did to Larry, Lilly showed that she was willing to forgive them (well in this picture, forgiving Kenny), "Lee's killed before and i forgave him, you've killed before and i'll forgive you, you both know we do what has to be done".
So she even admits that as hard as it was that what Kenny and determinant Lee did was something that had to be done which is evident in this picture if you take Lilly in the RV after siding with Kenny in the meat locker, she understands:
They do matter, because at the end of the day, had Lee died by chance in the drugstore when Kenny chooses to not save him in Episode 3, Lee's death will be on Kenny for his inaction.
But it didn't happen which is why the ifs and buts don't matter.
And if Kenny returned without Lee, everyone will wonder where he is, especially Lee's caretaker Clementine. Whether or not Kenny lies, it doesn't chance the fact that Kenny will have indirectly caused Lee to die over a disagreement.
I get that and yes you are right but like i also said, this scene wouldn't have even took place if Kenny hadn't saved Lee in episode 1, so here's another if or but situation which also doesn't matter because Lee didn't die in Episode 1.
My point is that Kenny's plan to take the boat was now rendered moot due to the theft, but if the theft haven't happened and considering that Kenny either requires near-perfect loyalty or persuasion for him to help find Clementine, I can't see him making his own initiative to help save Clementine without a price tag attached to it.
If a person requires the right kind of persuasion to help rescue a little girl, or demands your loyalty in exchange for friendship, and refuses to help when either of those terms are not met, then that's not being a team-player or being selfless, it's the opposite. And if the theft haven't happened, who to say that Kenny would still prioritize the boat over rescuing Clementine?
I think persuade is technically the wrong word here. He needs reminding rather than persuasion although both are very similar i guess. When Lee mentions family, that is reminding him of what he did for his family in the past, rather than persuading him to go but the reminder does persuade him, i guess that's what you meant? Sorry lol.
Well i know i said this before man so i'll add it here again, Kenny does go with Lee no matter what when they get back from Vernon's and if he doesn't go with you he says he hopes he finds her and will get the boat out ready for them when they get back and again, as they assumed Vernon took her, they all knew that Vernon wouldn't have hurt her so she wasn't in any immediate danger so really having everyone go and leave the boat unattended wasn't needed really in my opinion. If they had known it wasn't Vernon that took her then i feel things would have been different with Kenny and i know you will completely disagree with that based on the actual scene we saw but that's what i think ok??
The point here is that Kenny is demanding for Lee's loyalty to the point where it's unreasonable, as he simply cannot accept a couple of disagreement without losing respect for Lee and will not budge to help find Clementine unless Lee successfully persuades him, and even then it's all down to saying the right words.
I don't think its totally unreasonable though. I feel in a ZA, everyone should be kissing each other's ass in order to stay alive. If you don't have each other's back's you're gonna feel like you can't rely on people and that's how i look at it. Trust and loyalty is the most important thing. It's fine that you see it completely differently though and i hope you won't knock my opinion of this.
Another point that makes me annoyed at Kenny is his decision to not help Lee unless he's loyal enough, which is right after Lee was bitten by a walker. Lee's a dead man walking, and Kenny can refuse his last wish to help find Clementine unless persuaded or extremely loyal.
Except Lee says "you're still gonna take me, even though i'm bit?" And Kenny responds with "yeah, we'll figure that out when the time comes". So yeah he may decide not to go with you but he still willingly says he wants Lee on the boat with him when they get back.
Thanks Rich, wish I could type as fast as you lol!
You don't need to continue the debate if you're not up to it. I'm more than happy to put an end to it.
We have different opinions on Kenny, and we both have the right to express whether or not we miss him in Season 3 and why.
Except that had Luke have been there when she entered the comic book store, she'd have given him the radio "before" Troy found her and if he had searched her would have found nothing then and Luke would have stayed hidden, so again the plan to have Clem take the radio WOULD have worked if it wasn't for Luke's recklessness and it turned out that giving Clem the radio would have been the right decision as Mike/Kenny were both being closely watched by Troy and wouldn't have been able to slip past Troy were as Clem could (waits for yet another differing response? Lol)
You're missing the point. My Clementine did not want any part in the radio plan, and yet she's forced by Kenny to take the radio and go along with the plan anyway. Kenny forced incriminating evidence on her without her consent and gave her no opportunity to back out. That would mean that if Clementine was found out, it would be Kenny's fault at the end of the day.
Luke being caught or not doesn't change the fact that Kenny had placed Clementine in a dangerous situation and encouraged her to smuggle a radio under the nose of Carver and his people.
Kenny: "They were everywhere, you handled yourself didn't ya?" I know it's not the point but he did handle himself in the end. Once again though, second chances or not, the life or death moment in the meat locker proved extremely personal to Ken and rightly so. Im not saying it was a good thing he did choosing not to help though but im not going to hate him for it based on a "this or that could have happened" scenario when nothing did.
If however he had died, i would have looked at the scene very differently.
Also when Kenny was grabbed by the walker in Around Every Corner, i suppose if the player chooses not to shoot the walker, that doesn't count as leaving him to die to you does it just because we are the player that chooses this? Because to me I would compare that as just as bad as Kenny's action if the choice wasn't determinant.
So the ends justifies the means, that it was okay for Kenny to abandon a team member solely because he was able to get out a sticky situation in the end anyways? I disagree. It shows to me that Kenny cared more about getting even than ensuring that Clementine's guardian would get back safe and sound.
And as cathartic it would have been to have Kenny fend for himself in Episode 4 when he was grabbed by a walker, I still saved him, because I wanted to prove to him that I was better than leaving a team member to save themselves solely because I didn't like him or I disagreed with him.
And I find it ironic that you consider that the 'if and buts' doesn't matter in a choice-based game where there are consequences to the choices that you make. Seems like you're only using this term to excuse Kenny in the most convenient way when you haven't got a strong enough argument to explain why Kenny is right to refuse to lift the walkers off of Lee in A Long Road Ahead, when if it was the other way around, you'd condemn Lee for abandoning Kenny to fend the walkers off by himself.
I don't think its totally unreasonable though. I feel in a ZA, everyone should be kissing each other's ass in order to stay alive. If you don't have each other's back's you're gonna feel like you can't rely on people and that's how i look at it. Trust and loyalty is the most important thing. It's fine that you see it completely differently though and i hope you won't knock my opinion of this.
I agree that trust and loyalty is important, but it only works if both sides are willing to reach a mutual agreement. If a person cannot handle a disagreement or conflict of ideals, and no longer considers the other person worthy of their 'trust or loyalty' because of it, then that's not trust or loyalty to begin with: it's a one-sided affair where that person expects the other to agree with their terms on practically everything in exchange for their cooperation.
Except Lee says "you're still gonna take me, even though i'm bit?" And Kenny responds with "yeah, we'll figure that out when the time comes". So yeah he may decide not to go with you but he still willingly says he wants Lee on the boat with him when they get back.
Which makes me wonder why he still hesitates on going out to rescue Clementine when Kenny would be happy to accompany a bitten man on his boat, even if he is not loyal enough to prompt Kenny to help look for Clementine. Why is he prioritizing an infected man's position on the boat over rescuing a little girl he supposedly likes right now? I'm assuming that this happens right near the end of Episode 4.
Thanks Rich, wish I could type as fast as you lol!
It's all in the fingers, dan. It's all in the fingers.
Clementine was caught while looking for Luke in the comic book store by Troy, who will have already seen her loitering around in a restricte… mored area beforehand. That alone would have already aroused suspicion, and Clementine was lucky that Troy haven't had the idea to strip her down right there and then, because if he had he would have noticed the radio she was carrying.
Because Clementine and Luke was easily caught, the radio plan turned out to be too big of a risk to carry out, and having a little girl as a participant only proved that even a child wasn't able to hide or smuggle a radio without being caught.
Except that had Luke have been there when she entered the comic book store, she'd have given him the radio "before" Troy found her and if he had searched her would have found nothing then and Luke would have stayed hidden, so again the plan to have Clem take the radio WOULD have worked if it wasn't for Luke's recklessness and i… [view original content]
He had a good run, all good things gotta come to an end eventually but yeah I still miss him. The new characters just don't have the same charisma or spark.
Comments
Nope. Woodsman.
Oh yeah, I love those modelswaps.
Personally, no.
Kenny's focus and presence in the latter half Season 2 had worn past it's welcome due to having offered nothing new to the table besides becoming more unstable and aggressive. By the time the finale arrived I had grown sick and tired of his outbursts and railroading, to the point where I had lost whatever respect I had for him back in Season 1 and found little to no redeemable enough qualities to keep him around any longer.
I'm just not a big fan of hot-headed, aggressive, overly emotional, and domineering male figures. Never really saw the appeal in these kind of characters.
That being said, I will agree that his flashback sequence in A New Frontier was terrible and served only to cut off ties from him to have Clementine continue on her story with a fresh start.
As well as hyping a fight that got a swapped opponent at the eleventh hour.
I get what you are saying dude yeah fair enough. It's great how we have different views. Think how boring it would be if everyone agreed with everything.
Eh, true enough I guess. Democracy and whatnot.
First off ...Kenny is a cold blooded lizard man...so no heat can be had when being held in his scaly arms and talons. Secondly that car looked comfy. Thirdly you know I just post this stuff to drive you guys nuts right?
Please don't try and be ECIT No. 2! It just doesn't work and come on now that's a form of persucution saying the stuff you say deliberately is to drive us nuts.
Show a bit of decorum
But you know I do...we have had this discussion before lol.
How is being selfless not a redeeming quality?
He rescued Christa from certain death by jumping into the hole she was stuck in, fully knowing he would be trapped instead of her or tried to save Ben when he became trapped in an alleyway. Despite never getting along with Ben, knowing that he is the reason that his family was dead. (Even though this is from the Season 1)
Kenny selflessly took the blame for stealing the radio in order to protect Clementine. Which resulted in him losing a left eye.
Kenny helped Rebecca with her pregnancy
People who hate Kenny, don't understand his character really well. Inside that hot-headed, stubborn, overly emotional man is a general likable and caring man.
Which happened because Kenny had placed Clementine in harms way to begin with by forcing her to take the radio, whether she wanted incriminating evidence on her or not. Had Kenny not been around to take the blame for the radio theft, anything could have happened to her and it would be on Kenny if Clementine was punished severely for something she had wanted no part of.
I understand his character fully well, that he's loyal, likable, and caring for the most part so as long as he expects Lee to have his back at all times, and so as long as he gets his way. Sometimes his more redeeming qualities comes with a price ('you have my back, and I have yours' deal) rather than out of goodwill, and Kenny's hot-headed and emotions prevents him from being diplomatic enough to understand that not everyone will agree with him, and thus he comes across as far too childish and aggressive when it's not warranted.
Sometimes his plans even puts those he loves in danger due to not planning ahead as a leader should, and he relies far too much on luck when it comes to reaching an end goal that should be realistically impossible to achieve. There's taking a big risk for the greater good, and then there's outright gambling with people's lives for a end result that may not even exist in the first place.
He does have redeemable qualities where he has moments of selflessness, sure, such as rescuing Christa/Ben or helping Rebbeca give birth to AJ. But they're not enough for me to consider him a redeemable individual, let alone a likable character.
Technically Kenny can be left alive if you leave him after Jane or during wellington. Unfortunately Jane is dead either way.
Do I miss him?
And liking your own statuses via another account? Lol
No I do not do that.
Yes.
So? The point is that he was the only one that took the blame when others that supposedly cared about her didn't speak up to protect her.
And this is a zombie apocalypse where people you are with should have each others backs. I suppose Kenny saving Lee at the drugstore wasn't in goodwill? Or fixing up the RV for the group? Or the hunting trips in the woods to find food for "everyone" and not just his family? Or the trips to the drugstore? Also if i had saved Lee and the guy didn't at least have my back later on with something important or life threatening then I would be pretty pissed off as well so I don't blame Kenny one bit.
So what would ever be enough for people like yourself then? You want someone who is always nice as pie to you which btw is an unrealistic human trait especially in a ZA? Someone that disagrees with you "politely" instead of the way Kenny disagrees which i personally see as honest? Lol. Genuine questions by the way because i'd really love to knowz
And Rich i am not posting any of this in a hostile way before you take it the wrong way ok?
From what I understood, the others besides Mike didn't know that Kenny had placed incriminating evidence on Clementine and had no reason to want to take the blame for her sake. As for Mike, it's likely because he had little to no incentive for taking the blame for something he didn't do, and that he barely knew Kenny and Clementine enough to consider covering for them.
My point is that Kenny's moment to take the heat falls flat due to him setting Clementine up in a dangerous position that could have gotten her hurt or killed, and since Clementine has the option to state that she does not want to carry incriminating evidence, it makes Kenny appear indifferent to her well-being by forcing her to take them regardless of what she wants.
I was referring to Kenny's change in attitude and team support during the events in Starved for Help back in Season 1. He has been supportive and helpful beforehand out of goodwill, but after the meat locker incident, Kenny's 'you have my back, and I have yours' motto started to take top priority above common sense.
Because Lee didn't support Kenny's plan to kill Larry in front of his daughter, it was justifiable for Kenny to allow Lee to be killed by Danny St. John? Because Lee chose to put a dying and screaming woman out of her misery instead of using her as bait, it was justifiable for Kenny to ignore Lee and let him push the walkers away on his own when he may not have enough strength to do and could have easily died right there and then? In both of these instances, if Lee was killed, how was he going to explain to Clementine and everyone else that Lee died because Kenny stood there, watched, and did nothing to help Lee?
And then there's Kenny's initial refusal to help look for Clementine because he was more concerned about counting the number of times Lee didn't support Kenny enough, and needs convincing to help save a little girl Kenny has known for some time. Had the boat theft not happened, Kenny likely would have stuck with his guns and continued to refuse to help Lee rescue Clementine over a petty grudge he has for Lee, and considering that Kenny was a father, I found it rather abhorrent that Kenny had little prioritized Lee's loyalty to Kenny over rescuing a child.
I expect a person to be flawed as everyone is in a zombie apocalypse and I can learn to tolerate their negative qualities so as long as they're not dangerous qualities. But when a person refuses to learn from their mistakes and bad habits, continue to act antagonistic towards team members without much self control, consistently carry the 'my way or the highway' stance and refuses to be diplomatic and reasonable, and then actively tries to kill a team member with no proof of them having committed a crime, I would want nothing to do with them as they would be a huge threat to my friends and my own survival.
Kenny was trouble. He is with Katyaa and Duck now. His story is over.
Fair enough you have a point actually about the others not knowing about the radio. See? I can be reasonable with you at times.
And if she tells him no, yes he still goes ahead with it but apologises and says it's the only way and i get why he forced it onto her because it was a desperate situation. I can see what you are saying but it was still decent of him to protect her when things went wrong and even you can admit that. The real person to blame was Luke as the plan would most likely have worked if he hadn't done what he did. I still support the plan that Clem was the best person to take the radio to him anyway:
And if Clem asks why doesn't Kenny take the radio he says:
And it's true! Mike didn't know who Luke was as he wasn't at Carver's when the cabin group were first there, also Luke wouldn't know who he was either. Clem did know him though. Also it's less likely a kid would be focused on for suspicion than an adult sneaking around to try and get the radio to Luke, also she can hide easier if something went wrong.
I wouldn't say it was above common sense at all in my opinion., certainly not some of it. If you save someone's life, goodwill or not, you would expect them to be grateful and have your back when they need you. I know I would want that. So for a guy to ignore this and to go against the man who saved your life to then risk putting everyone else's life in danger which could have exacerbated things greatly, it's understandable to feel strongly about someone like that especially if he had also sided with Larry over the whole Duck situation. That's even worse obviously.
I'd like to also point out that Kenny had Lee's back when they first met Omid and Christa when not being sure if they were dangerous or not, he tells Lee if anything happens then they won't let them escape and that was regardless of the meat locker scene. He was also still willing to take Lee and Clem onto the boat regardless of the past choice. There are other times I'm sure.
Kenny looked more scared than not wanting to help but even so its no different than the danger Lee was putting everyone in trying to help an assumed racist man (who would shit on Lee if it was the other way around). If Larry had turned they'd have been killed. So yeah i get why he felt that way.
You and i both know that Kenny does that if you did or didn't shoot the woman as it was down to the meat locker choice why he did that. Again think what you like but i don't blame him at all because as i said, Lee was determinantely putting everyone in danger trying to save a man who even if revived would have needed immediate medical care that they didn't have and going back to what i said about feeling pissed off if i saved someone's life and then he goes and puts my life at risk to save a man who nearly killed him in the beginning, a man who didn't deserve to be revived quite frankly. Yeah I wouldn't be friends with him after that.
Ha, Lee wouldn't have even been around to that point if Kenny hadn't saved him at the drugstore so that's invalid to me. But seeing as you want an answer, he'd probably do what anyone would do to spare the feelings of others and lie about it but seeing as Kenny has always been truthful around everyone he's been with, who knows? It never happened so the ifs and buts don't matter here.
I wouldn't call it a petty grudge if someone puts your life in danger or if said person also wants to help throw your son out to the walkers. I also disagree because he was quite willing for them to get on the boat regardless of their relationship such as when they were discussing the numbers on the boat. Another reason i would argue that Kenny didn't necessarily need to go with Lee is because everyone thought at first that it was Vernon who took her and as they assumed it was him, you'd think that at the least after getting to know Vernon that he and his crew wouldn't have hurt Clem so she wouldn't be in immediate danger. Even if he refuses to go with Lee he says that he hopes you find her and he'll get the boat out onto the water so he was STILL willing to take them but i suppose he is still a villain in yours and other eyes yeah? Of course he is because your minds are made up as is mine!
Also if it was me, i would want to make sure the boat was safe and guarded as it was as equally as important for everyone and if a group of people were already going to look for her then why do they need everyone? Kenny helps find Clementine no matter what after they get back from Vernon's anyway so i think its petty for people to make a big thing about it if he didn't go. It's not my fault people didn't remind him about family, the one thing that was important to him. Reminding him what you had done for his family in the past.
Lee's loyalty? But he couldn't have been loyal if he had done those things to be against him. What are you saying? Lee determinantely wasn't loyal at all when it mattered the most.
Im not going to argue about this anymore because it always ends badly and believe it or not im sick of repeating myself sometimes. I didn't even intend to get into all this, it just happened.
You will never see or understand the way i see his character and i won't with you either. I disagree with everything you said above obviously. I stand by my views that his hostile nature is him being an honest asshole about things, he tells you what others don't have the balls to say, something i have always respected. His flaws are apparent and not always great but his heart has always been in the right place. Every single time he was "dangerous" or whatever, he always had reason for it, sometimes good, sometimes not but always in the interest of group in my opinion. He is someone that i will always trust, he would be someone I would most likely need to calm down at times (my Lee was what he needed in Season 2), and going through his troubles I would be the type of person who would want to try and help him, at least keep him happy.
Have a great weekend Rich. I probably won't reply or at least for a while
Kenny was trouble to those that couldn't accept his honest views despite his asshole nature. He spoke his mind and because of that, certain people hate it lol
He does mention being there when Luke flagged them down. Still, Clementine being a smaller target is a good point.
Yeah he flagged "them" down. Luke probably managed to speak to everyone as a group, not Mike individually though. He hadn't met Mike before this encounter before and we know this because Reggie was telling everyone who Mike was. I think the main point was that Kenny wanted to trust Clem more than Mike as he doesn't even know Luke apart from that one encounter they had.
But thanks for that though
Clementine was caught while looking for Luke in the comic book store by Troy, who will have already seen her loitering around in a restricted area beforehand. That alone would have already aroused suspicion, and Clementine was lucky that Troy haven't had the idea to strip her down right there and then, because if he had he would have noticed the radio she was carrying.
Because Clementine and Luke was easily caught, the radio plan turned out to be too big of a risk to carry out, and having a little girl as a participant only proved that even a child wasn't able to hide or smuggle a radio without being caught.
Even if Lee did oblige and did what Kenny said at the time, Kenny would still refuse to help free him from the walkers minutes later, solely because of the meat locker incident. This just tells me that Kenny's grudge towards Lee means that there are no second chances and that he was willing to let him die for a past action, even if he tries to redeem himself in his eyes.
And the reason why Lee would try to risk his life for a man who tried to have him killed was to prove to Larry and Lilly that Lee is not the criminal he makes him out to be, and that saving his life as opposed to killing him would be far more beneficial considering that his daughter is right there to witness the entire thing and was already informed of who Lee was. Helping Kenny kill Larry would also serve to cause more friction in the group, since Lilly likely was left with the thought in her mind that two of her group members conspired to kill her father when he was vulnerable and may have been saved had circumstances been different.
They do matter, because at the end of the day, had Lee died by chance in the drugstore when Kenny chooses to not save him in Episode 3, Lee's death will be on Kenny for his inaction. And if Kenny returned without Lee, everyone will wonder where he is, especially Lee's caretaker Clementine. Whether or not Kenny lies, it doesn't chance the fact that Kenny will have indirectly caused Lee to die over a disagreement.
My point is that Kenny's plan to take the boat was now rendered moot due to the theft, but if the theft haven't happened and considering that Kenny either requires near-perfect loyalty or persuasion for him to help find Clementine, I can't see him making his own initiative to help save Clementine without a price tag attached to it.
If a person requires the right kind of persuasion to help rescue a little girl, or demands your loyalty in exchange for friendship, and refuses to help when either of those terms are not met, then that's not being a team-player or being selfless, it's the opposite. And if the theft haven't happened, who to say that Kenny would still prioritize the boat over rescuing Clementine?
There's a ranking system where Kenny is very demanding on asking for your loyalty in exchange for him helping Lee out. The opportunity for Kenny to help Lee save Clementine without being persuaded is very slim, which means that Lee basically has to agree with Kenny on almost everything, and if he falters at least once or twice, he loses points and will miss out on Kenny's aid unless he persuades him.
The point here is that Kenny is demanding for Lee's loyalty to the point where it's unreasonable, as he simply cannot accept a couple of disagreement without losing respect for Lee and will not budge to help find Clementine unless Lee successfully persuades him, and even then it's all down to saying the right words.
Another point that makes me annoyed at Kenny is his decision to not help Lee unless he's loyal enough, which is right after Lee was bitten by a walker. Lee's a dead man walking, and Kenny can refuse his last wish to help find Clementine unless persuaded or extremely loyal.
Which is fine by me, since it was your choice to post a comment on this topic at the end of the day.
Have a great weekend too.
Jeez that was faster than i thought. I can't resist this, I will reply but when i get round to it as i am on my phone sorry.
You don't need to continue the debate if you're not up to it. I'm more than happy to put an end to it.
We have different opinions on Kenny, and we both have the right to express whether or not we miss him in Season 3 and why.
are we having kenny's funeral here or smthn
hey i do miss him tho!! I felt if he was still alive he'd always be right by clem's side. he was a loyal asf dude
he will be missed </3 ,,
Definitely Clem would still be good if he was around
Yeah, because keeping him in line helped keep her good.
errr yh?
Yeah, for chicks only though.
Except that had Luke have been there when she entered the comic book store, she'd have given him the radio "before" Troy found her and if he had searched her would have found nothing then and Luke would have stayed hidden, so again the plan to have Clem take the radio WOULD have worked if it wasn't for Luke's recklessness and it turned out that giving Clem the radio would have been the right decision as Mike/Kenny were both being closely watched by Troy and wouldn't have been able to slip past Troy were as Clem could (waits for yet another differing response? Lol)
Kenny: "They were everywhere, you handled yourself didn't ya?" I know it's not the point but he did handle himself in the end. Once again though, second chances or not, the life or death moment in the meat locker proved extremely personal to Ken and rightly so. Im not saying it was a good thing he did choosing not to help though but im not going to hate him for it based on a "this or that could have happened" scenario when nothing did.
If however he had died, i would have looked at the scene very differently.
Also when Kenny was grabbed by the walker in Around Every Corner, i suppose if the player chooses not to shoot the walker, that doesn't count as leaving him to die to you does it just because we are the player that chooses this? Because to me I would compare that as just as bad as Kenny's action if the choice wasn't determinant.
Lol Larry would still have treated him like shit just as he did with everyone, even his own daughter, that i am sure of and would be very surprised if otherwise. Proving to someone that they aren't a criminal whilst being in an extremely dangerous situation at the time was not appropriate at all given that in moments he could have had his face ripped off.
Except that sparing someone's feelings or trying to show someone is good was not a priority at that moment. As sad as it was for Lilly, Larry would have died anyway. As i said before, if Larry had been revived, he would have been extremely ill, needed medical assistance, hooked up to a ventilator, stuff that they didn't have. If you have ever seen a heart attack victim be revived like i have in real life you would see what i mean, they don't just miraculously recover. Sadly for Lilly, he was dead either way.
Yes it definitely had an impact and caused friction within the group, this i agree with. But again as said above, there was no way avoiding Larry's death. Trust me i wish it had been done differently because it wasn't a pleasant scene and i am someone who despised Larry! But I really feel the group wouldn't have got out of there if my Lee and Kenny hadn't done what they did and it was all done out of fear and not in anyway to be cruel to Lilly or Larry.
I'd also like to point out that despite what Kenny and determinant Lee did to Larry, Lilly showed that she was willing to forgive them (well in this picture, forgiving Kenny), "Lee's killed before and i forgave him, you've killed before and i'll forgive you, you both know we do what has to be done".
So she even admits that as hard as it was that what Kenny and determinant Lee did was something that had to be done which is evident in this picture if you take Lilly in the RV after siding with Kenny in the meat locker, she understands:
But it didn't happen which is why the ifs and buts don't matter.
I get that and yes you are right but like i also said, this scene wouldn't have even took place if Kenny hadn't saved Lee in episode 1, so here's another if or but situation which also doesn't matter because Lee didn't die in Episode 1.
I think persuade is technically the wrong word here. He needs reminding rather than persuasion although both are very similar i guess. When Lee mentions family, that is reminding him of what he did for his family in the past, rather than persuading him to go but the reminder does persuade him, i guess that's what you meant? Sorry lol.
Well i know i said this before man so i'll add it here again, Kenny does go with Lee no matter what when they get back from Vernon's and if he doesn't go with you he says he hopes he finds her and will get the boat out ready for them when they get back and again, as they assumed Vernon took her, they all knew that Vernon wouldn't have hurt her so she wasn't in any immediate danger so really having everyone go and leave the boat unattended wasn't needed really in my opinion. If they had known it wasn't Vernon that took her then i feel things would have been different with Kenny and i know you will completely disagree with that based on the actual scene we saw but that's what i think ok??
I don't think its totally unreasonable though. I feel in a ZA, everyone should be kissing each other's ass in order to stay alive. If you don't have each other's back's you're gonna feel like you can't rely on people and that's how i look at it. Trust and loyalty is the most important thing. It's fine that you see it completely differently though and i hope you won't knock my opinion of this.
Except Lee says "you're still gonna take me, even though i'm bit?" And Kenny responds with "yeah, we'll figure that out when the time comes". So yeah he may decide not to go with you but he still willingly says he wants Lee on the boat with him when they get back.
Thanks Rich, wish I could type as fast as you lol!
You're missing the point. My Clementine did not want any part in the radio plan, and yet she's forced by Kenny to take the radio and go along with the plan anyway. Kenny forced incriminating evidence on her without her consent and gave her no opportunity to back out. That would mean that if Clementine was found out, it would be Kenny's fault at the end of the day.
Luke being caught or not doesn't change the fact that Kenny had placed Clementine in a dangerous situation and encouraged her to smuggle a radio under the nose of Carver and his people.
If however he had died, i would have looked at the scene very differently.
Also when Kenny was grabbed by the walker in Around Every Corner, i suppose if the player chooses not to shoot the walker, that doesn't count as leaving him to die to you does it just because we are the player that chooses this? Because to me I would compare that as just as bad as Kenny's action if the choice wasn't determinant.
So the ends justifies the means, that it was okay for Kenny to abandon a team member solely because he was able to get out a sticky situation in the end anyways? I disagree. It shows to me that Kenny cared more about getting even than ensuring that Clementine's guardian would get back safe and sound.
And as cathartic it would have been to have Kenny fend for himself in Episode 4 when he was grabbed by a walker, I still saved him, because I wanted to prove to him that I was better than leaving a team member to save themselves solely because I didn't like him or I disagreed with him.
And I find it ironic that you consider that the 'if and buts' doesn't matter in a choice-based game where there are consequences to the choices that you make. Seems like you're only using this term to excuse Kenny in the most convenient way when you haven't got a strong enough argument to explain why Kenny is right to refuse to lift the walkers off of Lee in A Long Road Ahead, when if it was the other way around, you'd condemn Lee for abandoning Kenny to fend the walkers off by himself.
I agree that trust and loyalty is important, but it only works if both sides are willing to reach a mutual agreement. If a person cannot handle a disagreement or conflict of ideals, and no longer considers the other person worthy of their 'trust or loyalty' because of it, then that's not trust or loyalty to begin with: it's a one-sided affair where that person expects the other to agree with their terms on practically everything in exchange for their cooperation.
Which makes me wonder why he still hesitates on going out to rescue Clementine when Kenny would be happy to accompany a bitten man on his boat, even if he is not loyal enough to prompt Kenny to help look for Clementine. Why is he prioritizing an infected man's position on the boat over rescuing a little girl he supposedly likes right now? I'm assuming that this happens right near the end of Episode 4.
It's all in the fingers, dan. It's all in the fingers.
Not a bit. He infuriated me.
What do you mean good?
How she was in Season 1 and 2
I loved him and they give him a really shitty death. i thought he would go out protecting Clem and AJ or just live but instead he dies in a car crash
She's never going to be as innocent as she was when she was an 8 year old. No one can change that. She is still a good person.
He had a good run, all good things gotta come to an end eventually but yeah I still miss him. The new characters just don't have the same charisma or spark.