I'm not usually the one to defend Jane (or Kenny, for that matter) but condemning her for causing the deaths of Rebecca, Natasha, and Luke is really far fetched.
I realize she mentioned hurting beforehand and Kenny forcing her to march through a snowstorm didn't help, but Jane screwing around with Luke when they should've been getting her over there and keeping watch respectively meant she had to run over there with the herd on her heels while in labor. It's somewhat implied that she nearly miscarriaged and ended up dying of internal bleeding because of that.
Natasha and Luke are a long term result of her strongarming Arvo of course. If she hadn't done that or at least been there to accept responsibility for what she did, that might not have happened. Can't have a quick chemical reaction without a catalyst after all.
You could say that if Nick didn't die in episode 2 or 4, then Luke wouldn't have died... Is Luke surviving because of Nick's "alive" status - a possibility? Sure. Does that mean we should blame him for causing Luke's death? No.
I don't see the connection here.
Jane held Arvo up, sure, but she didn't do anything to him (she does imply that you need Arvo's meds, but that's logical, at the very least). If you don't do anything, then she'll give the medicine back to Arvo.
She still held him at gunpoint, tried to get Clementine to steal from him, and insists on threatening him with his own gun either way. I can kinda understand doing so if Clementine goes along with it, given he point blank said he was gonna get even with her and potentially get Clementine too for assisting her, but otherwise she was just being a petty bitch: a simple "take your stuff and don't come back" would suffice.
I'm not usually the one to defend Jane (or Kenny, for that matter) but condemning her for causing the deaths of Rebecca, Natasha, and Luke is really far fetched.
I'm not usually the one to defend Jane (or Kenny, for that matter) but condemning her for causing the deaths of Rebecca, Natasha, and Luke i… mores really far fetched.
You could say that if Nick didn't die in episode 2 or 4, then Luke wouldn't have died... Is Luke surviving because of Nick's "alive" status - a possibility? Sure. Does that mean we should blame him for causing Luke's death? No.
Sure, Jane left, she didn't die... But that doesn't change much. She waited until Rebecca gave birth and left. She doesn't own the group anything.
Jane held Arvo up, sure, but she didn't do anything to him (she does imply that you need Arvo's meds, but that's logical, at the very least). If you don't do anything, then she'll give the medicine back to Arvo.
Sorry for the rant.
I wasn't implying that Jane was a liability, although you could make an argument that her agenda and "loner" character caused issues, even if only minor. And then of course there are the other arguments posted here about how she played a role in numerous deaths.
I was comparing her to the potential Clem in the sense that they'd both be negative, hopeless loners. I apologise for not being clear.
How was Jane a liability? Helping them escape? Going to find Luke and Nick and Sarah? Actually helping maintain peace on the walk to Arvo's? Having the presence of mind to get a fire started so that Clem does not die of hypothermia?
Well, he was planning on running away with his sister and stashing her medicine at a checkpoint would've reduced the straggle involved in le… moreaving the house. So basically, he got ambushed by Jane, who took his gun and determinately convinced Clementine to take the medicine, thus forcing/convincing him to return home having to explain what happened to it/them. Hence his attitude when they ambush/meet the group on the road: reluctance/coyness.
Again, just because they decide to take whatever the group that they would've wanted as punishment doesn't mean they were bandits--might as well call Kenny and Jane bandits too. And even if they were bandits, Arvo himself would've a particular failing one(which admittedly would be kinda funny) given he clearly didn't like having to point a gun at someone(even in self-defense), much less steal from them(even if they stole from him first).
If he points a gun at an 11 year old girl that you are with...then guess what I am pretty fucking sure you would do the same things to him. I mean would you not hold the bastard at gunpoint?
I'm not usually the one to defend Jane (or Kenny, for that matter) but condemning her for causing the deaths of Rebecca, Natasha, and Luke i… mores really far fetched.
I realize she mentioned hurting beforehand and Kenny forcing her to march through a snowstorm didn't help, but Jane screwing around with Luke when they should've been getting her over there and keeping watch respectively meant she had to run over there with the herd on her heels while in labor. It's somewhat implied that she nearly miscarriaged and ended up dying of internal bleeding because of that.
Natasha and Luke are a long term result of her strongarming Arvo of course. If she hadn't done that or at least been there to accept responsibility for what she did, that might not have happened. Can't have a quick chemical reaction without a catalyst after all.
You could say that if Nick didn't die in episode 2 or 4, then Luke wouldn't have died... Is Luke surviving becau… [view original content]
Well, he was planning on running away with his sister and stashing her medicine at a checkpoint would've reduced the straggle involved in le… moreaving the house. So basically, he got ambushed by Jane, who took his gun and determinately convinced Clementine to take the medicine, thus forcing/convincing him to return home having to explain what happened to it/them. Hence his attitude when they ambush/meet the group on the road: reluctance/coyness.
Again, just because they decide to take whatever the group that they would've wanted as punishment doesn't mean they were bandits--might as well call Kenny and Jane bandits too. And even if they were bandits, Arvo himself would've a particular failing one(which admittedly would be kinda funny) given he clearly didn't like having to point a gun at someone(even in self-defense), much less steal from them(even if they stole from him first).
Well he didn't do that to me. And he does admit that he was wrong to do it if you talk to him in the hub where you go to find the truck. I know this because of my scumbag javi save.
Well he didn't do that to me. And he does admit that he was wrong to do it if you talk to him in the hub where you go to find the truck. I know this because of my scumbag javi save.
Clem is not responsible for the death of Lee. Lee would have die either way. No one in the apocalypse has a guarantee to survive. Clem wanted to find her parents and she was 9 years old for God's sake. You cant expect from her to act mature about this situation. She had a hope and she trusted him. She was also innocent and didnt think that stranger was a lying son of a bitch. Clem has nothing to do with Lee's death.
Wait....so he hit the walker...causing them to stop...Carley or Doug dies....so Kenny has to die in a car crash....KARMIC JUSTICE!!! Lol ok maybe a slight point there...but stupid walker should have been on the side of the road...didn't they ever teach it better?
Oh, don't be mistaken: I'd definitely disarm him if I thought there was even a chance that he'd shoot her, even accidentally(assuming the gun was actually loaded and not on safety to begin with that is). But Jane took it further than she needed to, considering she obviously listened in on most of their conversation and only came out when Arvo said he was gonna leave.
I'd question him for information about his presence but either turn him loose on good terms or make him hang around till everything is settled with Rebecca. Granted, the latter could backfire, but he apparently had to walk all the way home anyway before he got busted for sneaking out anyway.
If he points a gun at an 11 year old girl that you are with...then guess what I am pretty fucking sure you would do the same things to him. I mean would you not hold the bastard at gunpoint?
Clem is not responsible for the death of Lee. Lee would have die either way. No one in the apocalypse has a guarantee to survive. Clem wante… mored to find her parents and she was 9 years old for God's sake. You cant expect from her to act mature about this situation. She had a hope and she trusted him. She was also innocent and didnt think that stranger was a lying son of a bitch. Clem has nothing to do with Lee's death.
Clem is not responsible for the death of Lee. Lee would have die either way. No one in the apocalypse has a guarantee to survive. Clem wante… mored to find her parents and she was 9 years old for God's sake. You cant expect from her to act mature about this situation. She had a hope and she trusted him. She was also innocent and didnt think that stranger was a lying son of a bitch. Clem has nothing to do with Lee's death.
You can't blame a very young girl for her naive being in her search for her parents. At that young age you want and need them more than any other time in your life. And when someone tells you he has them, you'll take that chance. There was no malicious intent whatsoever.
Lee knew the radio worked and he put it right next to him, knowing there is someone messing with Clementine. That was reckless.
And before someone says "Gabe does stuff like this and you keep hating on him!", no, replace Clem with Gabe here, I'd tell you the same. They're simply too young at 8/9 to fathom the consequences, smart or not. That's why children need constant guidance.
If you want to know what started the cascade, it was when Kenny and determinantely Lee stole supplies from the station wagon. But even then you can blame no one but The Stranger when he actually kidnaps Clementine.
Obviously, Clementine was taken by force, because she lost both the radio and her hat, INSIDE the yard (the hat), so it was not like she wandered out completely. And she has been in the yard before, when she found the boat, so she probably thought it's alright to be there.
oh I don't know, leaving him alone and/or staying hidden altogether, he wouldn't have had anything to go home and complain about and might have just gone somewhere else to find a hiding spot like he seemed to be considering anyway.
How she will stay hidden and clem just shows up to him.
I fined this meds situation like the wagon situation in season one its a survivorsurvivor choice he had to make between his loved once life and health or his morals, kenny and jane made the right choice for surviving but no one was going to know thats by Mading this choice was there is going to bo problems.
Also arvo's group when they came to attack they said the reason they come for is because clem and jane tryed to robb or they did robb arvo not for jane Threatning arvo that what they said at that time they didn't say (where the women who threatned arvo).
Jane did what it takes for the sake of the group and what she think was right, its not like she was going kill arvo isn't it.
Also jane is not gonna steal the meds if you said no i am not robbing any one, those russians shidbags only looked for problems thats all its not jane fault and she saved the group by killing the last guy of that group.
Well, he was planning on running away with his sister and stashing her medicine at a checkpoint would've reduced the straggle involved in le… moreaving the house. So basically, he got ambushed by Jane, who took his gun and determinately convinced Clementine to take the medicine, thus forcing/convincing him to return home having to explain what happened to it/them. Hence his attitude when they ambush/meet the group on the road: reluctance/coyness.
Again, just because they decide to take whatever the group that they would've wanted as punishment doesn't mean they were bandits--might as well call Kenny and Jane bandits too. And even if they were bandits, Arvo himself would've a particular failing one(which admittedly would be kinda funny) given he clearly didn't like having to point a gun at someone(even in self-defense), much less steal from them(even if they stole from him first).
BUT SHE WENT AGAINST THEIR WORDS! Even though she knew she would get in trouble if they found her. Also she should have been taught about stranger danger.
You can't blame a very young girl for her naive being in her search for her parents. At that young age you want and need them more than any … moreother time in your life. And when someone tells you he has them, you'll take that chance. There was no malicious intent whatsoever.
Lee knew the radio worked and he put it right next to him, knowing there is someone messing with Clementine. That was reckless.
And before someone says "Gabe does stuff like this and you keep hating on him!", no, replace Clem with Gabe here, I'd tell you the same. They're simply too young at 8/9 to fathom the consequences, smart or not. That's why children need constant guidance.
If you want to know what started the cascade, it was when Kenny and determinantely Lee stole supplies from the station wagon. But even then you can blame no one but The Stranger when he actually kidnaps Clementine.
Obviously, Clementine was taken by force, because she lost both the radio and … [view original content]
You grammar is a little rusty here dude, but I get the gist of it.
Really, that's underlying problem with Jane in general: she's clearly invoking similar situations as the ones with Kenny in Season 1 where choosing to do the bad thing is for the sake of "survival," except they're more straightforward morality-wise and somewhat shallow in comparison.
If I missed anything, remind me:
Kenny and Larry in the Meatlocker vs Jane and Sarah in the Skylight Room: Locked in a room with a dying old man trumps being a few steps away from safety with a traumatized teenager, especially when the proposing jerk in the latter situation is literally making things worse.
Kenny and the Station Wagon vs. Jane and Arvo's Bag: Taking seemingly abandoned food for a hungry and injured group is more justified than outright robbing a [handicapped] stranger of their supplies. Granted, you could that both could've been met halfway and that is very true, but alas, the option is never presented.
Kenny and Ben in the Clock Tower vs. Jane and Sarah at the Observation Deck: This one is particularly bad because of the epic fail regarding the determinant nature of it, not to mention the degree of environmental hazard and cast endangerment is significantly lower. Add in the obvious bias and fridge logic/brilliance issues and it becomes pretty obvious how weak the latter scenario is in general.
I tend to side with neither of them personally, but I at least acknowledge that Kenny often had something resembling a good point because the stakes were more dire and the cost-to-benefit ratio was much more teetered to the bad choices. The fact that the opposing parties were genuinely established as being a potential serious problem beforehand rather than being reduced/designated to straw-men/-women because the jerk said so definitely helps.
oh I don't know, leaving him alone and/or staying hidden altogether, he wouldn't have had anything to go home and complain about and might h… moreave just gone somewhere else to find a hiding spot like he seemed to be considering anyway.
How she will stay hidden and clem just shows up to him.
I fined this meds situation like the wagon situation in season one its a survivorsurvivor choice he had to make between his loved once life and health or his morals, kenny and jane made the right choice for surviving but no one was going to know thats by Mading this choice was there is going to bo problems.
Also arvo's group when they came to attack they said the reason they come for is because clem and jane tryed to robb or they did robb arvo not for jane Threatning arvo that what they said at that time they didn't say (where the women who threatned arvo).
Jane did what it takes for the sake of the group and what she think was right, its not like s… [view original content]
You grammar is a little rusty here dude, but I get the gist of it.
Really, that's underlying problem with Jane in general: she's clearly … moreinvoking similar situations as the ones with Kenny in Season 1 where choosing to do the bad thing is for the sake of "survival," except they're more straightforward morality-wise and somewhat shallow in comparison.
If I missed anything, remind me:
* Kenny and Larry in the Meatlocker vs Jane and Sarah in the Skylight Room: Locked in a room with a dying old man trumps being a few steps away from safety with a traumatized teenager, especially when the proposing jerk in the latter situation is literally making things worse.
* Kenny and the Station Wagon vs. Jane and Arvo's Bag: Taking seemingly abandoned food for a hungry and injured group is more justified than outright robbing a [handicapped] stranger of their supplies. Granted, you could that both could've been met halfway and that is very true, b… [view original content]
Kenny and Larry in the Meatlocker vs Jane and Sarah in the Skylight Room: Locked in a room with a dying old man trumps being a few steps away from safety with a traumatized teenager, especially when the proposing jerk in the latter situation is literally making things worse.
Kenny and the Station Wagon vs. Jane and Arvo's Bag: Taking seemingly abandoned food for a hungry and injured group is more justified than outright robbing a [handicapped] stranger of their supplies. Granted, you could that both could've been met halfway and that is very true, but alas, the option is never presented.
Kenny and Ben in the Clock Tower vs. Jane and Sarah at the Observation Deck: This one is particularly bad because of the epic fail regarding the determinant nature of it, not to mention the degree of environmental hazard and cast endangerment is significantly lower. Add in the obvious bias and fridge logic/brilliance issues and it becomes pretty obvious how weak the latter scenario is in general.
Woah why all of that the last thing I was talking about is the survival choice of meds and wagin and its non of what kenny and jane did is abou, t morality its about survival cus robbery is not a moral thing, you was complaining on why ppl defend jane for taking the meds witch its what she did is wrong but its not if it was for survival.
Look I am not here for another jane vs kenny talk I am here to defend jane cus I liked her as much as I did liked kenny thats all, no need to start that with me cus I don't have time for it.
You grammar is a little rusty here dude, but I get the gist of it.
Really, that's underlying problem with Jane in general: she's clearly … moreinvoking similar situations as the ones with Kenny in Season 1 where choosing to do the bad thing is for the sake of "survival," except they're more straightforward morality-wise and somewhat shallow in comparison.
If I missed anything, remind me:
* Kenny and Larry in the Meatlocker vs Jane and Sarah in the Skylight Room: Locked in a room with a dying old man trumps being a few steps away from safety with a traumatized teenager, especially when the proposing jerk in the latter situation is literally making things worse.
* Kenny and the Station Wagon vs. Jane and Arvo's Bag: Taking seemingly abandoned food for a hungry and injured group is more justified than outright robbing a [handicapped] stranger of their supplies. Granted, you could that both could've been met halfway and that is very true, b… [view original content]
Kenny and Larry in the Meatlocker vs Jane and Sarah in the Skylight Room: Locked in a room with a dying old man trumps being a few steps awa… morey from safety with a traumatized teenager, especially when the proposing jerk in the latter situation is literally making things worse.
Kenny and the Station Wagon vs. Jane and Arvo's Bag: Taking seemingly abandoned food for a hungry and injured group is more justified than outright robbing a [handicapped] stranger of their supplies. Granted, you could that both could've been met halfway and that is very true, but alas, the option is never presented.
Kenny and Ben in the Clock Tower vs. Jane and Sarah at the Observation Deck: This one is particularly bad because of the epic fail regarding the determinant nature of it, not to mention the degree of environmental hazard and cast endangerment is significantly lower. Add in the obvious bias and fridge logic/brilliance issues and it becomes pretty… [view original content]
Kenny and Larry in the Meatlocker vs Jane and Sarah in the Skylight Room: Locked in a room with a dying old man trumps being a few steps awa… morey from safety with a traumatized teenager, especially when the proposing jerk in the latter situation is literally making things worse.
Kenny and the Station Wagon vs. Jane and Arvo's Bag: Taking seemingly abandoned food for a hungry and injured group is more justified than outright robbing a [handicapped] stranger of their supplies. Granted, you could that both could've been met halfway and that is very true, but alas, the option is never presented.
Kenny and Ben in the Clock Tower vs. Jane and Sarah at the Observation Deck: This one is particularly bad because of the epic fail regarding the determinant nature of it, not to mention the degree of environmental hazard and cast endangerment is significantly lower. Add in the obvious bias and fridge logic/brilliance issues and it becomes pretty… [view original content]
As Lee I didn't even come close to thinking of faulting or blaming Clem for it. But in season 2 as Clem when discussing Lee's death with Kenny I chose the "he's dead because of me" option.
Comments
I realize she mentioned hurting beforehand and Kenny forcing her to march through a snowstorm didn't help, but Jane screwing around with Luke when they should've been getting her over there and keeping watch respectively meant she had to run over there with the herd on her heels while in labor. It's somewhat implied that she nearly miscarriaged and ended up dying of internal bleeding because of that.
Natasha and Luke are a long term result of her strongarming Arvo of course. If she hadn't done that or at least been there to accept responsibility for what she did, that might not have happened. Can't have a quick chemical reaction without a catalyst after all.
I don't see the connection here.
She still held him at gunpoint, tried to get Clementine to steal from him, and insists on threatening him with his own gun either way. I can kinda understand doing so if Clementine goes along with it, given he point blank said he was gonna get even with her and potentially get Clementine too for assisting her, but otherwise she was just being a petty bitch: a simple "take your stuff and don't come back" would suffice.
I'm not usually the one to defend Jane (or Kenny, for that matter) but condemning her for causing the deaths of Rebecca, Natasha, and Luke is really far fetched.
I wasn't implying that Jane was a liability, although you could make an argument that her agenda and "loner" character caused issues, even if only minor. And then of course there are the other arguments posted here about how she played a role in numerous deaths.
I was comparing her to the potential Clem in the sense that they'd both be negative, hopeless loners. I apologise for not being clear.
He was not...you are reading wikia theories and putting them into your idea of cannon.
If he points a gun at an 11 year old girl that you are with...then guess what I am pretty fucking sure you would do the same things to him. I mean would you not hold the bastard at gunpoint?
Gabe's naive but people still hate him
Because he didn't regret what he did. Clem did.
Well it technically was cos if he hadn't hit that walker, the van wouldn't have stopped and nobody would have been shot.
What did he do?
I just wanna know so I can think of a way to justify what he did 
He threw me under the bus for killing Conrad. He is the one who told me to do that and destroyed my relationship with Tripp and Eleanor.
Where the hell did you hear that?
Ikr, Tripp was my favourite from the season.
Well he didn't do that to me. And he does admit that he was wrong to do it if you talk to him in the hub where you go to find the truck. I know this because of my scumbag javi save.
He doesn't. He smiles if you choose "Please don't do this", he didn't regret this because he is a fucking shitcock.
Clem is not responsible for the death of Lee. Lee would have die either way. No one in the apocalypse has a guarantee to survive. Clem wanted to find her parents and she was 9 years old for God's sake. You cant expect from her to act mature about this situation. She had a hope and she trusted him. She was also innocent and didnt think that stranger was a lying son of a bitch. Clem has nothing to do with Lee's death.
he does apologize if you speak to him at the hub though.
And he is asking me to stop treating him like a kid when he is actually acting like one.
Wait....so he hit the walker...causing them to stop...Carley or Doug dies....so Kenny has to die in a car crash....KARMIC JUSTICE!!! Lol ok maybe a slight point there...but stupid walker should have been on the side of the road...didn't they ever teach it better?
Alas, one reason as to why I didn't really care.
Actually, one of the developers mentioned that on the Telltale Stream of Season 2 back in October.
One of the developers mentioned that on the Telltale Stream of Season 2 back in October.
Oh, don't be mistaken: I'd definitely disarm him if I thought there was even a chance that he'd shoot her, even accidentally(assuming the gun was actually loaded and not on safety to begin with that is). But Jane took it further than she needed to, considering she obviously listened in on most of their conversation and only came out when Arvo said he was gonna leave.
I'd question him for information about his presence but either turn him loose on good terms or make him hang around till everything is settled with Rebecca. Granted, the latter could backfire, but he apparently had to walk all the way home anyway before he got busted for sneaking out anyway.
That's because he is right in the middle of being a shitcock and Javier is shouting at him...
But she left the house without anyone knowing, on purpose to find him even though lee wouldn't want her to.
Then looking for her, he got bit
You can't blame a very young girl for her naive being in her search for her parents. At that young age you want and need them more than any other time in your life. And when someone tells you he has them, you'll take that chance. There was no malicious intent whatsoever.
Lee knew the radio worked and he put it right next to him, knowing there is someone messing with Clementine. That was reckless.
And before someone says "Gabe does stuff like this and you keep hating on him!", no, replace Clem with Gabe here, I'd tell you the same. They're simply too young at 8/9 to fathom the consequences, smart or not. That's why children need constant guidance.
If you want to know what started the cascade, it was when Kenny and determinantely Lee stole supplies from the station wagon. But even then you can blame no one but The Stranger when he actually kidnaps Clementine.
Obviously, Clementine was taken by force, because she lost both the radio and her hat, INSIDE the yard (the hat), so it was not like she wandered out completely. And she has been in the yard before, when she found the boat, so she probably thought it's alright to be there.
How she will stay hidden and clem just shows up to him.
I fined this meds situation like the wagon situation in season one its a survivorsurvivor choice he had to make between his loved once life and health or his morals, kenny and jane made the right choice for surviving but no one was going to know thats by Mading this choice was there is going to bo problems.
Also arvo's group when they came to attack they said the reason they come for is because clem and jane tryed to robb or they did robb arvo not for jane Threatning arvo that what they said at that time they didn't say (where the women who threatned arvo).
Jane did what it takes for the sake of the group and what she think was right, its not like she was going kill arvo isn't it.
Also jane is not gonna steal the meds if you said no i am not robbing any one, those russians shidbags only looked for problems thats all its not jane fault and she saved the group by killing the last guy of that group.
BUT SHE WENT AGAINST THEIR WORDS! Even though she knew she would get in trouble if they found her. Also she should have been taught about stranger danger.
You grammar is a little rusty here dude, but I get the gist of it.
Really, that's underlying problem with Jane in general: she's clearly invoking similar situations as the ones with Kenny in Season 1 where choosing to do the bad thing is for the sake of "survival," except they're more straightforward morality-wise and somewhat shallow in comparison.
If I missed anything, remind me:
I tend to side with neither of them personally, but I at least acknowledge that Kenny often had something resembling a good point because the stakes were more dire and the cost-to-benefit ratio was much more teetered to the bad choices. The fact that the opposing parties were genuinely established as being a potential serious problem beforehand rather than being reduced/designated to straw-men/-women because the jerk said so definitely helps.
I mean, call me an asshole but I would rob anyone in an apocalypse.
Yes, it is, regardless of how young and naive she was at the time.
Woah why all of that the last thing I was talking about is the survival choice of meds and wagin and its non of what kenny and jane did is abou, t morality its about survival cus robbery is not a moral thing, you was complaining on why ppl defend jane for taking the meds witch its what she did is wrong but its not if it was for survival.
Look I am not here for another jane vs kenny talk I am here to defend jane cus I liked her as much as I did liked kenny thats all, no need to start that with me cus I don't have time for it.
Yeah I would rob arvo too.
Wait a fucking minute, this thread should be about Clem and lee
As Lee I didn't even come close to thinking of faulting or blaming Clem for it. But in season 2 as Clem when discussing Lee's death with Kenny I chose the "he's dead because of me" option.
Does this make sense to anyone else?