We should just let Telltale do it's own thing
I'm sure I'll be crucified for this like I was before, but I can't help but feel all the re-writes and inconsistencies that people complain about could have been avoided if people just let Telltale do their own thing instead of complain. I'm sure the newer characters of ANF would have had a lot more development if people didn't constantly yell "BUT MAH CLEM!!!".
Writing a story isn't easy. Everyone thinks it's easy but if Telltale actually added all of your ideas into the game, it would end up being a big cluster fuck of nonsense.
You want realism to immerse yourself in the story but at the same time you want a scrawny 13 year old girl to be a BAMF and take out entire hordes. You want there to be conflict to overcome but criticize characters who cause said conflicts. You want there to be more reoccurring characters and continuation between seasons but you only care about Clementine and no one else. You're all tried of the rewrites but demand that Telltale retcon things like Kenny/Jane deaths. There's a lot that can be mentioned but I'm sure you get the picture.
That being said, I think in order for season 4 to be better than the past seasons, we must let Telltale make all the story telling decisions and stop demanding they change things because a few people don't like it. Well, let the hate commence. I've said my piece.
Comments
i used to have a very positive and optimistic outlook on the game throughout the season. however, episode five really showed me that the entire season was just wasted potential. yes, i would say some of the complaints about clem simply not being playable were pretty invalid, but those weren't the only complaints. people on the forums suggested more hubs, longer episodes, and more character development. those were really never established in future episodes. after seeing the finished product, i would say that us not giving them feedback wouldn't have made a difference anyway. also, if people don't complain about a clearly lacking product, telltale will continue to produce certain games similar to anf, with little character development and lackluster writing. the point is, people were upset and concerned because season one and half of season two (subjective) showed us that telltale can really go above and beyond and create a very engaging and high quality story. a new frontier was ended up being very lackluster and shorter than everyone anticipated. i'm just saying, us complaining about a lower quality, clearly rushed product could help telltale to realize that they need to improve because their fanbase is declining. edit: also, what you're saying about the rewrites being due to the desire to have clem play a more prominent role or do "badass shit" is invalid because clem never played a very prominent role in any of the episodes. a lot of the criticisms were very valid and many of them did not even pertain to clementine. not to mention, people complained about clementine being TOO badass and unrealistic.
There's nothing that would justify a crucifixion in your opinion, however I would counter that Ep 3 and Ep 4 which were regarded as improvements by the fanbase were responses to the very 'complaints' that are ironically being complained about that appear in the forums. Writing isn't easy, however constructive criticism is very helpful and to be expected in the entertainment business, and every format of writing is exposed to it from book publishers to film production companies.
Telltale is not a hostage. They decide which feedback they implement and what they ignore if any is implemented at all. I'm certainly they fully realize that they can't please everyone, however as a business looking to make a profit - they do look at consumer feedback as to how to improve their product to increase sales.
I understand about the hubs. But that to me that was more of a gameplay element rather than a story telling one. As I mentioned above, I feel all of the Garcia's and supporting characters could have been better developed if people didn't pressure Telltale to focus only on Clementine and AJ. The players came in hating the Garcia's and for the sole reason that they weren't Clementine. Once you tell yourself you hate something it's hard to change your mind after. Very few people came into ANF with an open mind unfortunately
they barely focused on clem and aj at all. the point was that they just didn't develop any of the characters due to lack of hubs and the amount of time in each of the episodes. aj isn't even witnessed in present time, and he is brought up very occasionally.
Well, Clem being present certainly didn't help any of the other characters. Like I said, I feel people are so obsessed with her that they don't bother to give anyone else a chance. I thought the Garcia family dynamic was great this season, but most don't acknowledge that because they aren't Clem
the garcia's were pretty underdeveloped as well. gabe was pretty much the most developed out of all of them, which is funny considering that he just recieved it in the very last episode. the episodes all focused EXCLUSIVELY on the garcia's, but they were underdeveloped because various ways that should be used in order to connect with them aren't utilized. the episodes are very short and action is put above character development.
Our problems is that:
EVERYTHING that happened is because Telltale. This is all their fault. They had 3 years to make this game successful and you have nobody to blame but them. Sure that writting a story is not easy but that doesn't change anything.
They said we, the fans, are in minority and the reviews mattered much more. Season 1 was a masterpiece because it had only three writers and this season is written by a lot of writters who can't write for shit.
I think a fine line needs drawn between "complaining" and "whining". Demanding Clementine be the sole protagonist and not being more playable can be seen as more "whining" as it doesn't actually affect the quality of the story. However, there are many things to complain about, such as:
And I could go on. Complaints need to be heard if there is any hope of improvement.
You do realize this season was rewritten numerous times even before it was released? And as we clearly saw Clementine had little to no importance in this season despite the massive support to make her a legitimate main character again. One main problem is telltale really didn't care about this season which became painfully obvious towards the very end. The game was filled with bugs and glitches,inconsistent writing team,lack of attention to detail to list a few problems. This idea telltale bent themselves into a pretzel trying to appease fans is beyond comical seeing how they said we are a dismissive minority who essentially does not matter in their eyes anymore so long as they make a profit. Even if fans had been complacent with what they were given telltale still had not a absolute clue what to do with this season spanning a year prior and in the middle of this season.
Are you saying that it should be a movie instead of a GAME?
Clementine and AJ didn't even have a big role in this season. There were no hubs or enough character development to make me care about them, especially when those episodes were so fucking short which is a big issue.
The reason I hate the Garcias is because of their actions. Gabe throws his uncle under the bus for shooting Conrad when he is actually the one who said "This guy's crazy, shoot him", it's fucking unrealistic. Kate provokes David into killing his own brother out of jealously without any hesitations. David wants to leave with their family and let the Richmond residents die when in the previous episodes, he cared about them.
You seriously have no idea what you're talking about.
I agree.
But they promoted Clementine as being the lead
I would have been fine with ANF if they had said straight from the gate that it would be a new story instead they straight lied and told us we'd be playing Clementine
About 99% of the hate and criticism towards ANF is fully deserved. ANF is ridiculously flawed.
Let the haters hate and the complainers complain. We'll all profit from that. Telltale will be forced to hear out the complains of ANF in order to keep their golden goose series going on. If they continue to make the next TWD game into a full QTE Michael Bay type of clown fiesta movie of a game like ANF was, then Telltale is surely fucked. They'll lose even more customers. They already lost shit tons of them with the release of ANF.
If there is no one to point out the flaws, then how does one ever acknowledge them?
But who yelled that Clementine should be in someone's story? They call this game Season 3 because it's a continuation but this doesn't even continue Clementine's story. Kenny/Jane get terrible conclusions and AJ has been taken away.
Tell me you're fucking bullshitting. Was Episode 1 too big to be released as whole? Was this the biggest season Telltale has done so far? Have you seen the Slaughterhouse scene somewhere?
Give me a goddamn example. Is there a scene where it should draw my attention on them?
Last time I was this early, I remember every single character in Season 2. I don't even remember everyone in A New Frontier. Gabe was a terrible character, even his determinant death was poorly written because it feels like the same level as Lee and Kenny's deaths, problem is that Clementine cries for someone she has only known for a week.
All the other forums that I am a member of are fan owned. I thought something like this would happen when the forum was run by the company. IT was only a matter of time before some exec is like "We're paying for it we better damn well be listen to them." and here we are.
You just said "that to me that was more of a gameplay element rather than a story telling one". Do you even know the definition of a game?
How about you stop defending a Telltale project which could been successful due to 3 Years old development? Like I said, you have no one to blame but Telltale themselves.
Oh, I got a lot of nerve? I've been defending Telltale for years and after this stupid game, I felt betrayed.
If only we had longer episodes and hubs.
Dude, you're trying to find the slightest obscurity and are trying to turn that into something it's not. Example, waking from point A to B is not story. Aside from that you're angry and should try to compose yourself before responding. Read my post I give my reasons there. Don't just come in and insult people without reading. You did that last time too if I remember correctly.
Constructive criticism is necessary.
Did I ever say "Fuck you for loving this game"? No. I'm just pointing out things because I think you don't understand why people hate this game. You're defending a game which was supposed to be successful due to its development time. It's like defending Duke Nukem Forever which has been in development hell for 15 years.
Yeah, when you said we are hypocrite for loving Kenny but hate Gabe. You were just offending people for having an opinion.
Without criticism, we wouldn't have got the Kenny/Jane flashbacks in Episode 4. It definitely is important to give customer-feedback, but I agree that the Clementine-obsession did hurt ANF more than it helped. I'm thankful for their attempt nonetheless.
Don't mean to crucify you but here's what I disagree with:
So you're making the argument that constructive criticism is hurting the quality of Telltale's games? No, the only thing that could prevent re-writes and inconsistencies is if Telltale makes an outline for the narrative before production and sticks to it, our complaints have nothing to do with it.
That is true, but Telltale's success as a company rides on exceptional storytelling. We have a valid reason to expect quality stories when that is the main reason why we buy their products.
No I don't, I want Clementine to be realistic and believable as well. You're making pretty big generalizations.
Because conflict should make sense and be in line with character motivations.
That's not true, most people want it one way or the other, not both at the same time.
Jane and Kenny's death was so horribly done, that's why they deserve a retcon. There's a difference between a good rewrite and a bad rewrite.
We don't have any direct impact on Telltale's development decisions in the first place. There's no set up poll that will decide what's going to be done.
Some of the feedback and criticism is good and some of it is bad. Something should be considered and something should be ignored.
This is TellTale's task to do it right, because it's their job.
Telling people to stop criticising and giving feedback on what they think should or not should be done is the worst thing to do.
It will just shut down communication between us and them.
That will lead to simply people abandoning this company if they dislike what they're doing and that's something that nobody wants.
However, you're right that TellTale shouldn't blindly add absolutely everything what fans want, but what you're suggesting is not a solution.
I get what you're saying and while I don't like the constant hate Telltale's been getting, a little constructive criticism can help you improve. That said they've gotten more ranting than actual constructive criticism.
Waiiiit. Bad graphics and outdated engine? I thought the engine was really, really nice! I love how they kept their unique TWD games look with the engine, but upped it up quite a bit with the graphics.
The graphics do look nice in some parts (Clem and Javi's character models, the lighting in some scenes) but there are other parts that leave a little bit to be desired.
There was also the weird outline glitches where Clementine looked like she had mascara on, and the strange glassy or black eyes people had from a distance.
Also, no matter how good the graphics are, the engine is horrific. They've been using it since like 2004 or 2005. It doesn't even have a physics engine and I, along with others, experienced many weird graphic hickups and game breaking bugs, along with many crashes. Furthermore, it's supposed to be utter hell to develop for, according to Telltale employee reviews on Glassdoor. I honestly don't know why they can't just change to a different engine that will be easier, cheaper and better optimized for what they're doing. Their games are pretty simple as is, so maybe it's just a pride thing of not wanting to let go of their engine, as archaic as it is.
Disagree, it's Telltale's ignorance that resulted in the travesty we come to know as ANF. Who in their right mind would've thought killing characters such as Kenny and Jane within a five minute flashback be because of our community? If you ask me, it's because they couldn't be bothered to work on the multiple branching lines. Season 2's ending had us on our seats with what should've been a continuation. Instead what we got is someone elses story to push us away from diverse and rich story telling branching paths.
Admittedly, two-three years is not enough for this. If you're expecting to pull off something with so many branching lines, it takes time. I would've been happy to wait five years if the story is a damn good one. ANF is more of a cash-in on the current fanbase than it's of an interesting story. They fucked up the Season 2 endings either because of the writers or because of corporate. Not because of it's fans at all.
Let's just think about this here, we get about a little more than half of the game-time in ANF than we did in Season 1, we had two episodes come out at the same time and then had someone lie to us about it being too big despite the fact that you can make both of them into one episode and it still not be as large Season 1 of Episode 2, you have characters that get very little development, you have characters that are just left out for no reason, you have Clementine that is not playable in the main story but is only playable through four five-six minute flashbacks... The list goes on. How are we, the fans of the Walking Dead Game, to be blamed for any of this? Are we supposed to lower our expectation of a good game as Telltale has done with effort in this game?
Agree with pretty much everything but this, it can be both. Keep MORE people than Clementine alive. Now we have Javier and Clementine as non-determinants.
The comics/TV show manage to keep a set cast for continuity, so why not the games.
TTG kills everyone off but Clementine. I want them to keep some characters beside Clementine, have changing focuses each season or episode. That'd work. No one, including me, loses their Clementine (since I am one of the so-called Clementine-obsessed), and everyone (including me, because I like deep characters that belong like Lee, Kenny, etc) can enjoy Clementine's company.
Oh no I agree completely, there can definitely be a balance between the two, what I meant was many of the fans are on one side or the other. One majority of the fans only care about Clementine and want the focus to be solely on her, and the other majority are sick of Clem and want new characters to take the spotlight.
The problem with the OP's argument is that he addresses the fans as a single entity that contradicts itself, when in actuality we are many people who have differing opinions and complaints.
Got it.
Not gona lie, this thought crossed my mind a couple times. Especially with season 2.
Thing is, these complaints have been a constant since the release of The Walking Dead Game Season 2, fans of the game have been constructive with their criticisms of telltale since then and many of us are still waiting for our feedback of their games to actually show, there were so many threads about what people wanted to see in Season 3, outside of the forums people were also discussing how they'd like to see the series improve, allot of the feedback asking for more hubs similar to the first season, more game-play such as puzzle solving, more screen time and development for characters (so there would be less underdeveloped characters such as Carlos and Alvin), more impact from our choices, better uses of determinant characters and one of the biggest complaints from allot of people of S2 was how returning character Kenny overshadowed the rest of the characters and they did the exact same thing in ANF by bringing Clementine into the mix and don't even get me started on all the things they lied about having included in this season.
Sorry Ghost but as someone else here said, there were constant rewrites even before release so its pointless attacking other people for hating the game. It is totally justified and Telltale knows they fucked up and i hope they have lost a lot of fans for this awful game.
The Garcia's and every other S3 character were hugely undeveloped regardless of how you see it, it's a fact. The episodes were too short to even give any decent development, we didn't even get enough time to grow attached to anyone. The gameplay was virtually non existant with most of it being all dialogue choosing. The story was just all over the place at times. They couldn't even give us a convincing villain. Joan all of a sudden became this psychopath in episode 4 which was completely different to how she was in the previous episode or even at the start of ep4. There were just so many problems.
You like it fine, i can only assume you are a newer Telltale fan are one of those that just accepts the bullshit Telltale feeds their fans but i and others like me won't fall through their trap door and accept it. They know the shit they have produced, they know how lazy they have become and they know how much better they are capable of doing. They let season 1's success get to their head and now its biting them in the ass.
Fuck Telltale!
Should we? It resulted in a bad short season for the walking dead, oh and now they are gonna do more minecraft instead of tales 2, twou 2 or got 2 because they like money so much.
Amen