I didn't say you wrong your image just reminded me of the story I never conncted the meaning of the story to the dicusstion about kenny its just came to my mined.
And yeah its exactly as you said its not about who is right or wrong cause no one right and no one is wrong its about you if like kenny or hate him if you like a character or hate her.
Thats me being in the middle
Haha well in a situation like that, someone had to be wrong but opinions about Kenny do not apply because you either like him or you don't and no one is right or wrong about him depending on the topic
* In Episode 1 of Season 1, letting Shawn die regardless of who Lee tries to save first, he instead just carries Duck all the way to the bar… moren.
* In Episode 2 of Season 1, if you tried to save Larry, Kenny won't even try to stop Danny St. John from attacking and, if the QTE is failed, killing Lee.
* In Episode 3 of Season 1, if you're not on good terms with him because you tried to save Larry, he'll let Lee die if you fail the QTE.
* In Episode 3 of Season 1, if Lee fails to convince Kenny to stop the train because Duck is turning, then a zombified Duck will have killed everyone (bar Kenny and Chuck).
* In Episode 2 of Season 2, if Clementine fails to convince Kenny to surrender to Carver, he will get Alvin killed.
Just to name a few instances.
Really he accepts disagreement? No he does not....he fights it....bitches...verbally abuses anyone who disagrees...then goes ahead and does what he wants. And Tobi...seeing as I like you...I will just agree to disagree with his manipulation.
Now here is a question for you...if someone in the group acted like Kenny did in S2....but his name was not Kenny...how fast do you think people would have turned against him?
She is the only person left he knows from way back when it started and trusts. He puts all his trust into her and makes that obvious for her… more to notice. Manipulating someone, whether we agree on a definition or not, is usually used when you sneakily move someone to do as you will. And Kenny doesn't do that. He asks/begs her, is being Kenny all the while at it (AKA "I know you're smart so that's what you will do!"). You misinterpret Kenny being himself as a sneaky attempt to manipulate.
When Kenny thinks he's right, he'll project this onto someone he trusts, expecting him to join in. But it's way too blunt and obvious for it be an attempt to manipulate.
He isn't only projecting onto Clementine either, it happened multiple times in Season One as well; with Lee.
Edit: And as dan mentioned, Kenny accepts disagreement. A manipulative person wouldn't do so. As Jane, she begged for Clem to stay when Clem decides to head off alone. Kenny doesn't … [view original content]
Of course it isn't the end of the argument....a few months from now someone is going to make another post...probably about the same damn thing...and we will once again argue it out....good times...
He was being artful in the way he was building her up with flattery...
Oh jesus! Are you for real? Kenny is ALWAYS nice to Clem apar… moret from the one time he yelled at her over Sarita's death which was his grief taking over because he never meant to and he says this later and in Season 3. He wasn't flattering her to get her on his side. Have you not read anything i said? Are Kenny haters so ignorant they ignore what is put in front of them and can't counter an argument properly? I told you that Clem can clearly disagree with Kenny's plan or him asking her to help him persuade the group and i gave you a very good example of how persuasion is different to manipulation but as usual you ignored it. So I'm sorry to crush your hopes and dreams but you are wrong and very misinformed.
I would argue he was both artful using flattery and insidious by painting members of the group in a less than stellar light.
Lol if i got a truck wor… [view original content]
I didn't say you wrong your image just reminded me of the story I never conncted the meaning of the story to the dicusstion about kenny its … morejust came to my mined.
And yeah its exactly as you said its not about who is right or wrong cause no one right and no one is wrong its about you if like kenny or hate him if you like a character or hate her.
Thats me being in the middle
Of course it isn't the end of the argument....a few months from now someone is going to make another post...probably about the same damn thing...and we will once again argue it out....good times...
Then why did you say it was the end? Lol. Being a fabulist again i see?
Ps. Once again you couldn't counter argue what i said in my post sigh
Of course it isn't the end of the argument....a few months from now someone is going to make another post...probably about the same damn thing...and we will once again argue it out....good times...
Hey I have stopped defending her because I put what happened down to bad writing as they felt they needed a fight and got cold feet about the original intent to make the fight between Luke and Kenny....and believe me....way more people would have sided with Luke and not blindly defended Kenny.
Sadly i have to agree. But they would only choose Luke more because of the amount of female fans that crushed on him as far as I'm concerned and in a way i am glad they didn't have Luke in that final scene because Luke had always been built up as the nice guy Telltale wanted everyone to like and portrayed Kenny the way they did. It would have been a pointless choice between Luke and Kenny because it would have been ridiculously one sided.
On the other hand, if Luke pulled the same fucking stunt Jane did, i think SMART people would think twice about choosing him the second time round, kinda like how many people fell through the Telltale trap door the first time choosing Jane...until many saw through her utter bullshit
Hey I have stopped defending her because I put what happened down to bad writing as they felt they needed a fight and got cold feet about th… moree original intent to make the fight between Luke and Kenny....and believe me....way more people would have sided with Luke and not blindly defended Kenny.
I already did counter argue it...you are just trying to prolong the disagreement..it is your usual MO...defend Kenny even when what he does is indefensible...purposefully misunderstand manipulation.
Of course it isn't the end of the argument....a few months from now someone is going to make another post...probably about the same damn thi… moreng...and we will once again argue it out....good times...
Then why did you say it was the end? Lol. Being a fabulist again i see?
Ps. Once again you couldn't counter argue what i said in my post sigh
I already did counter argue it...you are just trying to prolong the disagreement..it is your usual MO...defend Kenny even when what he does is indefensible...purposefully misunderstand manipulation.
But you didn't!! Now you really are being a fibulist, a falsifier. You never countered what i said about the player having the choice to disagree with him and your so called bullshit view of manipulation, you ignored my point about that and ignored what i said when i compared the difference between persuasion and manipulation using an example of negative and positive which was extremely valid and clearly a fact showing why you are wrong but as usual you close your eyes, ears and mind and don't want to admit that what you say is crap and you can't ever defend it can you? Nope!
Prolong the disagreement? Lol you are the one that said the argument was ended, more lies then? And his actions are very defendable in everything he has ever done and i will ALWAYS have something to say when he is being wrongly treated in my eyes and you know that better than anyone. And before you think it, I don't think every single thing he did was defendable. I have always been completely honest in my opinions and that isn't going to change. And purposefully misunderstand manipulation? Maybe instead of reading a definition page perhaps you could fully research what manipulation is before sprouting stuff that YOU obviously don't understand.
I just wish you'd listen and stop ignoring things i say when i make a case about something.
I already did counter argue it...you are just trying to prolong the disagreement..it is your usual MO...defend Kenny even when what he does is indefensible...purposefully misunderstand manipulation.
If this was any other character you wouldn't be saying they were manipulating Clem because the fact is you just hate this fictional character so much you'd find any little piece of negativity to trash the character.
I already did counter argue it...you are just trying to prolong the disagreement..it is your usual MO...defend Kenny even when what he does is indefensible...purposefully misunderstand manipulation.
Really he accepts disagreement? No he does not....he fights it...
He does accept disagreement in the truck though. He explains his disappointment and says no more on it.
Play the scene again.
Now here is a question for you...if someone in the group acted like Kenny did in S2....but his name was not Kenny...how fast do you think people would have turned against him?
Well what do you expect? There was nothing remotely interesting about season 2 characters compared to those from season 1. If it was Omid or Christa, fans wouldn't turn against them in a hurry either. What's your point?
Really he accepts disagreement? No he does not....he fights it....bitches...verbally abuses anyone who disagrees...then goes ahead and does… more what he wants. And Tobi...seeing as I like you...I will just agree to disagree with his manipulation.
Now here is a question for you...if someone in the group acted like Kenny did in S2....but his name was not Kenny...how fast do you think people would have turned against him?
My point still stands. Just because it's determinant doesn't mean it didn't happen, there's no canon after all and just because he feels remorseful doesn't change the fact that he let Shawn die, it just meant that he knew what he did.
I feel like the fact that people choose to defend him instead of being upset over how he treated Clementine in Season 2 just shows how far people will go to defend their favorite characters. Yes, he is. No questions asked. You can say all you want about "his heart being in the right place" but even if Clem tries to level with him and tells him to stop acting so weird and that she shot Lee, he refuses to even look at her and continues to get mad at her. Lee would never have done that. Luke never did that. Even Jane never did that and she didn't know Clem half as well as Kenny did. I would have preferred if they'd just left him alone the way they did in Season 1. That was an incredibly, stupidly brave thing he did and it was admirable. But the fact that he made it out of there completely surrounded with no way out (which isn't logical to begin with and is my #1 petpeeve of any plot twist that Telltale has come up with, second being David's survival) and THEN he has the audacity to treat the one person he has left like complete and utter garbage is beyond awful. I seriously don't understand why people are so attached or make endless excuses for his behavior.
Him being "hotheaded" is not an excuse either. As someone above said- "Kenny is a classic case of a verbal/emotional abuser. He's overbearing, refuses to listen to anyone else's opinions, calls everyone names and constantly questions their intelligence, accuses/blames everyone but himself constantly, threatening, extreme anger on a very constant basis, orders people around, undermines others, trivializes everyone else's problems..."
So, to answer your question, I'd say yes. No, he's not all bad and I know he loves Clementine, but if I were her I would have back-talked him and probably left at the first few outlashes because no one deserves that.
It's hard to compare because that new character would have no background story whatsoever. So the only thing we do know is what happens with him in S2.
We know Kenny from the get-go. We know almost everything off him. We know he isn't solely what he does in S2. That is why you can't just replace him and expect him to be treated the same.
Kenny is not a violent psychopath, because we know what he went through and we know what he's going through, and he oftentimes behaves the same as back then in S1. Especially in the 1on1 moments with Clementine. Including his care for the group; a group he barely knows and still wants to survive.
Really he accepts disagreement? No he does not....he fights it....bitches...verbally abuses anyone who disagrees...then goes ahead and does… more what he wants. And Tobi...seeing as I like you...I will just agree to disagree with his manipulation.
Now here is a question for you...if someone in the group acted like Kenny did in S2....but his name was not Kenny...how fast do you think people would have turned against him?
That was my point and a key reason why Kenny should never have been in S2...the writers used him as a crutch so they did not have to do much in the way of character development.
Here is probably how season 2 went from the writer's pov. Ok we have to follow up S1....well we have Clem and Omid and Christa.....lets kill Omid...and sorta make it partially Clem's fault because she was scared and hid in a toilet stall...oh yeah make it the gas station from 400 days.(BONUS!!)
Ok Now we will do a time skip of 16 months....Christa has no baby...so we can use the baby thing later this season...where did the baby go? We will just let the player think it up without explanation. Ok now we lose Christa and get Clem out on her own. Get her bit by a dog!! (You don't think we are being too rough on her? Omid...Christa...escaping rape...almost drowning..and now being bitten? It's fine.)
Cabin Group...we have no idea what to do with these people even though it features a bunch of people anyone who if we took time to think about..could come up with backgrounds and personality to rival season 1...but nah we have no time for that...bring back Kenny! (What wait...in one of his deaths..there was no way to escape) No one will question it...He got lucky...we will even get him a new girlfriend...(Whats her background?) Who cares....we have Kenny!!!
later in the season....You know gang...we have made Kenny sorta into a Monster...we are going to go down as the writers who turned the vast majority of players against Kenny...we will be stalked. No problem....I Einstein VonBrainstorm have come up with a solution...instead of having him fight Luke...we kill Luke...bring back Jane...and have Kenny and Jane fight. (Wait...wasn't Jane the one urging Clem to help Kenny? Why would they fight?) We will have her hide the Baby in a car in the middle of a snowstorm with walkers all around! (.....BONUS!! We win!!)
Really he accepts disagreement? No he does not....he fights it...
He does accept disagreement in the truck though. He explains his d… moreisappointment and says no more on it.
Play the scene again.
Now here is a question for you...if someone in the group acted like Kenny did in S2....but his name was not Kenny...how fast do you think people would have turned against him?
Well what do you expect? There was nothing remotely interesting about season 2 characters compared to those from season 1. If it was Omid or Christa, fans wouldn't turn against them in a hurry either. What's your point?
Well actually Sean Vanaman i believe wanted Kenny to be in season 2 after they did some retakes of his season 1 "death" scene because originally he was going that way but they decided long before season 2 that they planned to bring him back.
The thing is, as a fan i'm glad they brought him back and i felt that more season 1 characters should have survived into season 2. It happens in the tv show so why not the game? They kill everyone off in every game they have done pretty much.
As for the development in general, it was slowly going down the shitter when Sean and the original writers left
That was my point and a key reason why Kenny should never have been in S2...the writers used him as a crutch so they did not have to do much… more in the way of character development.
Here is probably how season 2 went from the writer's pov. Ok we have to follow up S1....well we have Clem and Omid and Christa.....lets kill Omid...and sorta make it partially Clem's fault because she was scared and hid in a toilet stall...oh yeah make it the gas station from 400 days.(BONUS!!)
Ok Now we will do a time skip of 16 months....Christa has no baby...so we can use the baby thing later this season...where did the baby go? We will just let the player think it up without explanation. Ok now we lose Christa and get Clem out on her own. Get her bit by a dog!! (You don't think we are being too rough on her? Omid...Christa...escaping rape...almost drowning..and now being bitten? It's fine.)
Cabin Group...we have no idea what to do with these people… [view original content]
I knew she wouldn't reply back and continue the convo. Says her piece then doesn't have anything to challenge my points with about what i said before lol
It's hard to compare because that new character would have no background story whatsoever. So the only thing we do know is what happens with… more him in S2.
We know Kenny from the get-go. We know almost everything off him. We know he isn't solely what he does in S2. That is why you can't just replace him and expect him to be treated the same.
Kenny is not a violent psychopath, because we know what he went through and we know what he's going through, and he oftentimes behaves the same as back then in S1. Especially in the 1on1 moments with Clementine. Including his care for the group; a group he barely knows and still wants to survive.
Dan you are a major Kensplainer.....
Ugh honestly it is such a stupid term "kensplainer"'or apologists or whatever term you invented… more.
Ep 5 at the house...after he gets the truck fixed and everyone leaves and he is in the truck pissed off...his entire speech is about how it is up to he and Clem to save AJ...and Wellington is the only way that AJ will survive...people like Jane...she does not understand what we understand(in a nutshell...that's manipulating an 11 year old and inviting her to the grownup seat in a play to get her from wanting to go back to Howes(The only place they know where it is at that has the formula)
Lol!! No it's not. That is him sprouting off his opinion saying that Jane doesn't know what Lee knew, go watch the scene again. He doesn't even say "Jane doesn't understand what WE understand Clem". Naturally though he wants Clem's support because she's the only one he trusts enough. He never once forces … [view original content]
Yeah, I remember hearing Gavin Hammon say that was the case as well. He also noted that they considered having him be "Carver" when they first contacted him about it, so the whole "Carver like Clementine" and "Kenny goes crazy" things might've been a holdover from that.
Well actually Sean Vanaman i believe wanted Kenny to be in season 2 after they did some retakes of his season 1 "death" scene because origin… moreally he was going that way but they decided long before season 2 that they planned to bring him back.
The thing is, as a fan i'm glad they brought him back and i felt that more season 1 characters should have survived into season 2. It happens in the tv show so why not the game? They kill everyone off in every game they have done pretty much.
As for the development in general, it was slowly going down the shitter when Sean and the original writers left
Yeah, I remember hearing Gavin Hammon say that was the case as well. He also noted that they considered having him be "Carver" when they fir… morest contacted him about it, so the whole "Carver like Clementine" and "Kenny goes crazy" things might've been a holdover from that.
I was just gonna stay out of this and try to just ignore it, but since that's proven a bit hard recently, might as well throw in my two cents: Kenny is not a manipulator.
Not because he's a particularly good person, but because quite frankly, he's not smart enough to be one. And even if he was, it'd still be very unlikely that he'd even bother because that's not the type of character he is. He's somehow more blunt than Jane in that he picks a side he likes and stubbornly insists upon it, stating his case and never really backing down for quite a while unless unambiguously convinced by someone he likes, which is easier said than done. He's a pigheaded, simpleminded asshole who's increasingly determined as he continues to lose.
Manipulation is when someone is being negative to get what they want. Kenny was in no way being negative when persuading Clem to persuade th… moree group for what he believed was in the best interests of everyone even though on this occasion the plan was debatably bad. Let me give you another example. If an advertisment presents a product in an attractive manner and promotes its best features, that's persuasion. However, if an advertisement misrepresents the
product, or uses misleading terms in describing it, that is
manipulation. So just think on that for a moment.
That absolutely is not what manipulation is.
Definition of manipulate manipulated; manipulating transitive verb 1 to treat or operate with or as if with the hands or by mechanical means especially in a skillful manner manipulate a pencil manipulate a machine
2
a : to manage or utilize skillfully
quantify our data and manipulate it statistically — S. L. Payne
b : to… [view original content]
Manipulation is when someone is being negative to get what they want. Kenny was in no way being negative when persuading Clem to persuade th… moree group for what he believed was in the best interests of everyone even though on this occasion the plan was debatably bad. Let me give you another example. If an advertisment presents a product in an attractive manner and promotes its best features, that's persuasion. However, if an advertisement misrepresents the
product, or uses misleading terms in describing it, that is
manipulation. So just think on that for a moment.
That absolutely is not what manipulation is.
Definition of manipulate manipulated; manipulating transitive verb 1 to treat or operate with or as if with the hands or by mechanical means especially in a skillful manner manipulate a pencil manipulate a machine
2
a : to manage or utilize skillfully
quantify our data and manipulate it statistically — S. L. Payne
b : to… [view original content]
The funny thing is, fangirls aside, I've recently come to the realization that Jane was partially written as an unwitting instigator of doom when you really think about how the story was going before, during, and after her initial tenure.
So yes, I believe what you suggest in your second point might've been the case depending on when the executives came in.
Hey I have stopped defending her because I put what happened down to bad writing as they felt they needed a fight and got cold feet about th… moree original intent to make the fight between Luke and Kenny....and believe me....way more people would have sided with Luke and not blindly defended Kenny.
Sadly i have to agree. But they would only choose Luke more because of the amount of female fans that crushed on him as far as I'm concerned and in a way i am glad they didn't have Luke in that final scene because Luke had always been built up as the nice guy Telltale wanted everyone to like and portrayed Kenny the way they did. It would have been a pointless choice between Luke and Kenny because it would have been ridiculously one sided.
On the other hand, if Luke pulled the same fucking stunt Jane did, i think SMART people would think twice about choosing him the second time round, kinda like how many people fell through the Telltale trap door the first time choosing Jane...until many saw through her utter bullshit
THANK YOU! At least you understand and aren't blinded by hate like KSDIS1 is! I gave some clear points as to the difference between manipulation and persuasion and she didn't have a response to my argument. Instead she ignored what i said.
Manipulation is perceived as a negative trait, Kenny was not doing so in a negative light in any way during that scene. He was persuading Clementine for what he felt was for the good of everyone and not thinking of himself regardless of what you blindly think.
That's what i said to her and also:
If an advertisment presents a product in an attractive manner and promotes its best features, that's persuasion. However, if an advertisement misrepresents the
product, or uses misleading terms in describing it, that is
manipulation.
I was just gonna stay out of this and try to just ignore it, but since that's proven a bit hard recently, might as well throw in my two cent… mores: Kenny is not a manipulator.
Not because he's a particularly good person, but because quite frankly, he's not smart enough to be one. And even if he was, it'd still be very unlikely that he'd even bother because that's not the type of character he is. He's somehow more blunt than Jane in that he picks a side he likes and stubbornly insists upon it, stating his case and never really backing down for quite a while unless unambiguously convinced by someone he likes, which is easier said than done. He's a pigheaded, simpleminded asshole who's increasingly determined as he continues to lose.
THANK YOU! At least you understand and aren't blinded by hate like KSDIS1 is! I gave some clear points as to the difference between manipula… moretion and persuasion and she didn't have a response to my argument. Instead she ignored what i said.
Manipulation is perceived as a negative trait, Kenny was not doing so in a negative light in any way during that scene. He was persuading Clementine for what he felt was for the good of everyone and not thinking of himself regardless of what you blindly think.
That's what i said to her and also:
If an advertisment presents a product in an attractive manner and promotes its best features, that's persuasion. However, if an advertisement misrepresents the
product, or uses misleading terms in describing it, that is
manipulation.
I knew she wouldn't reply back and continue the convo. Says her piece then doesn't have anything to challenge my points with about what i said before lol
THANK YOU! At least you understand and aren't blinded by hate like KSDIS1 is! I gave some clear points as to the difference between manipula… moretion and persuasion and she didn't have a response to my argument. Instead she ignored what i said.
Manipulation is perceived as a negative trait, Kenny was not doing so in a negative light in any way during that scene. He was persuading Clementine for what he felt was for the good of everyone and not thinking of himself regardless of what you blindly think.
That's what i said to her and also:
If an advertisment presents a product in an attractive manner and promotes its best features, that's persuasion. However, if an advertisement misrepresents the
product, or uses misleading terms in describing it, that is
manipulation.
THANK YOU! At least you understand and aren't blinded by hate like KSDIS1 is! I gave some clear points as to the difference between manipula… moretion and persuasion and she didn't have a response to my argument. Instead she ignored what i said.
Manipulation is perceived as a negative trait, Kenny was not doing so in a negative light in any way during that scene. He was persuading Clementine for what he felt was for the good of everyone and not thinking of himself regardless of what you blindly think.
That's what i said to her and also:
If an advertisment presents a product in an attractive manner and promotes its best features, that's persuasion. However, if an advertisement misrepresents the
product, or uses misleading terms in describing it, that is
manipulation.
Comments
I didn't say you wrong your image just reminded me of the story I never conncted the meaning of the story to the dicusstion about kenny its just came to my mined.
And yeah its exactly as you said its not about who is right or wrong cause no one right and no one is wrong its about you if like kenny or hate him if you like a character or hate her.
Thats me being in the middle
The only instance that you mentioned that is not determinant is Shawn s death which you seeKenny blaming himself about it in episode 3 of Season 1
Really he accepts disagreement? No he does not....he fights it....bitches...verbally abuses anyone who disagrees...then goes ahead and does what he wants. And Tobi...seeing as I like you...I will just agree to disagree with his manipulation.
Now here is a question for you...if someone in the group acted like Kenny did in S2....but his name was not Kenny...how fast do you think people would have turned against him?
Of course it isn't the end of the argument....a few months from now someone is going to make another post...probably about the same damn thing...and we will once again argue it out....good times...
I know lol
Then why did you say it was the end? Lol. Being a fabulist again i see?
Ps. Once again you couldn't counter argue what i said in my post sigh
Sadly i have to agree. But they would only choose Luke more because of the amount of female fans that crushed on him as far as I'm concerned and in a way i am glad they didn't have Luke in that final scene because Luke had always been built up as the nice guy Telltale wanted everyone to like and portrayed Kenny the way they did. It would have been a pointless choice between Luke and Kenny because it would have been ridiculously one sided.
On the other hand, if Luke pulled the same fucking stunt Jane did, i think SMART people would think twice about choosing him the second time round, kinda like how many people fell through the Telltale trap door the first time choosing Jane...until many saw through her utter bullshit
I already did counter argue it...you are just trying to prolong the disagreement..it is your usual MO...defend Kenny even when what he does is indefensible...purposefully misunderstand manipulation.
But you didn't!! Now you really are being a fibulist, a falsifier. You never countered what i said about the player having the choice to disagree with him and your so called bullshit view of manipulation, you ignored my point about that and ignored what i said when i compared the difference between persuasion and manipulation using an example of negative and positive which was extremely valid and clearly a fact showing why you are wrong but as usual you close your eyes, ears and mind and don't want to admit that what you say is crap and you can't ever defend it can you? Nope!
Prolong the disagreement? Lol you are the one that said the argument was ended, more lies then? And his actions are very defendable in everything he has ever done and i will ALWAYS have something to say when he is being wrongly treated in my eyes and you know that better than anyone. And before you think it, I don't think every single thing he did was defendable. I have always been completely honest in my opinions and that isn't going to change. And purposefully misunderstand manipulation? Maybe instead of reading a definition page perhaps you could fully research what manipulation is before sprouting stuff that YOU obviously don't understand.
I just wish you'd listen and stop ignoring things i say when i make a case about something.
If this was any other character you wouldn't be saying they were manipulating Clem because the fact is you just hate this fictional character so much you'd find any little piece of negativity to trash the character.
I really hope you aren't like this in real life.
He does accept disagreement in the truck though. He explains his disappointment and says no more on it.
Play the scene again.
Well what do you expect? There was nothing remotely interesting about season 2 characters compared to those from season 1. If it was Omid or Christa, fans wouldn't turn against them in a hurry either. What's your point?
My point still stands. Just because it's determinant doesn't mean it didn't happen, there's no canon after all and just because he feels remorseful doesn't change the fact that he let Shawn die, it just meant that he knew what he did.
Like Clementine? Hm?
I feel like the fact that people choose to defend him instead of being upset over how he treated Clementine in Season 2 just shows how far people will go to defend their favorite characters. Yes, he is. No questions asked. You can say all you want about "his heart being in the right place" but even if Clem tries to level with him and tells him to stop acting so weird and that she shot Lee, he refuses to even look at her and continues to get mad at her. Lee would never have done that. Luke never did that. Even Jane never did that and she didn't know Clem half as well as Kenny did. I would have preferred if they'd just left him alone the way they did in Season 1. That was an incredibly, stupidly brave thing he did and it was admirable. But the fact that he made it out of there completely surrounded with no way out (which isn't logical to begin with and is my #1 petpeeve of any plot twist that Telltale has come up with, second being David's survival) and THEN he has the audacity to treat the one person he has left like complete and utter garbage is beyond awful. I seriously don't understand why people are so attached or make endless excuses for his behavior.
Him being "hotheaded" is not an excuse either. As someone above said- "Kenny is a classic case of a verbal/emotional abuser. He's overbearing, refuses to listen to anyone else's opinions, calls everyone names and constantly questions their intelligence, accuses/blames everyone but himself constantly, threatening, extreme anger on a very constant basis, orders people around, undermines others, trivializes everyone else's problems..."
So, to answer your question, I'd say yes. No, he's not all bad and I know he loves Clementine, but if I were her I would have back-talked him and probably left at the first few outlashes because no one deserves that.
It's hard to compare because that new character would have no background story whatsoever. So the only thing we do know is what happens with him in S2.
We know Kenny from the get-go. We know almost everything off him. We know he isn't solely what he does in S2. That is why you can't just replace him and expect him to be treated the same.
Kenny is not a violent psychopath, because we know what he went through and we know what he's going through, and he oftentimes behaves the same as back then in S1. Especially in the 1on1 moments with Clementine. Including his care for the group; a group he barely knows and still wants to survive.
That was my point and a key reason why Kenny should never have been in S2...the writers used him as a crutch so they did not have to do much in the way of character development.
Here is probably how season 2 went from the writer's pov. Ok we have to follow up S1....well we have Clem and Omid and Christa.....lets kill Omid...and sorta make it partially Clem's fault because she was scared and hid in a toilet stall...oh yeah make it the gas station from 400 days.(BONUS!!)
Ok Now we will do a time skip of 16 months....Christa has no baby...so we can use the baby thing later this season...where did the baby go? We will just let the player think it up without explanation. Ok now we lose Christa and get Clem out on her own. Get her bit by a dog!! (You don't think we are being too rough on her? Omid...Christa...escaping rape...almost drowning..and now being bitten? It's fine.)
Cabin Group...we have no idea what to do with these people even though it features a bunch of people anyone who if we took time to think about..could come up with backgrounds and personality to rival season 1...but nah we have no time for that...bring back Kenny! (What wait...in one of his deaths..there was no way to escape) No one will question it...He got lucky...we will even get him a new girlfriend...(Whats her background?) Who cares....we have Kenny!!!
later in the season....You know gang...we have made Kenny sorta into a Monster...we are going to go down as the writers who turned the vast majority of players against Kenny...we will be stalked. No problem....I Einstein VonBrainstorm have come up with a solution...instead of having him fight Luke...we kill Luke...bring back Jane...and have Kenny and Jane fight. (Wait...wasn't Jane the one urging Clem to help Kenny? Why would they fight?) We will have her hide the Baby in a car in the middle of a snowstorm with walkers all around! (.....BONUS!! We win!!)
Well actually Sean Vanaman i believe wanted Kenny to be in season 2 after they did some retakes of his season 1 "death" scene because originally he was going that way but they decided long before season 2 that they planned to bring him back.
The thing is, as a fan i'm glad they brought him back and i felt that more season 1 characters should have survived into season 2. It happens in the tv show so why not the game? They kill everyone off in every game they have done pretty much.
As for the development in general, it was slowly going down the shitter when Sean and the original writers left
I knew she wouldn't reply back and continue the convo. Says her piece then doesn't have anything to challenge my points with about what i said before lol
Yeah, it kinda is.
Yeah, I remember hearing Gavin Hammon say that was the case as well. He also noted that they considered having him be "Carver" when they first contacted him about it, so the whole "Carver like Clementine" and "Kenny goes crazy" things might've been a holdover from that.
Well i am extremely glad they didn't go down that road. That would have just completely ruined the character ten times over in my view
I was just gonna stay out of this and try to just ignore it, but since that's proven a bit hard recently, might as well throw in my two cents: Kenny is not a manipulator.
Not because he's a particularly good person, but because quite frankly, he's not smart enough to be one. And even if he was, it'd still be very unlikely that he'd even bother because that's not the type of character he is. He's somehow more blunt than Jane in that he picks a side he likes and stubbornly insists upon it, stating his case and never really backing down for quite a while unless unambiguously convinced by someone he likes, which is easier said than done. He's a pigheaded, simpleminded asshole who's increasingly determined as he continues to lose.
Holy DP, Batman!
The funny thing is, fangirls aside, I've recently come to the realization that Jane was partially written as an unwitting instigator of doom when you really think about how the story was going before, during, and after her initial tenure.
So yes, I believe what you suggest in your second point might've been the case depending on when the executives came in.
THANK YOU! At least you understand and aren't blinded by hate like KSDIS1 is! I gave some clear points as to the difference between manipulation and persuasion and she didn't have a response to my argument. Instead she ignored what i said.
Manipulation is perceived as a negative trait, Kenny was not doing so in a negative light in any way during that scene. He was persuading Clementine for what he felt was for the good of everyone and not thinking of himself regardless of what you blindly think.
That's what i said to her and also:
If an advertisment presents a product in an attractive manner and promotes its best features, that's persuasion. However, if an advertisement misrepresents the
product, or uses misleading terms in describing it, that is
manipulation.
Hey Jackass I replied...some of us actually work.
You basically thanked him for calling Kenny a stupid asshole who could not fool an 11 year old if he tried....GG.
Wrong dick, babe.
...I think. All this gray's starting to blend together.
I don't even know any more...jeez they need a better color scheme.
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[removed]
Wonderful!
I was helping put a man's leg back together Dan...sorry I cannot be on here all the time
I know you just missed me.
You technically haven't replied though lol. You've probably long forgotten my original post the other day now anyway.
Very convenient...
Was it Hershel's or Mr Parker?
Was one of Mark's...could have done the other..but...hell we got hungry lol
What one? Jesus...how many posts have we done this time?