i dont see how Kenny yelling at her after his Girlfriend just died while being in Grief after the worst day in his life where he both Lost his eye and Lost another Loved one so i think that its fair to say that this should not be considered abuse.
What outlashes? The one where he yells at Clem after he just lost his Eye and the woman he loved? Yep real fair to hold it against him or the time where Jane drives him insane with Anger by faking AJ s death in episode 5 and he pushes Clem off which by the way Jane does it too and she is not being controlled by her emotions.
I feel like the fact that people choose to defend him instead of being upset over how he treated Clementine in Season 2 just shows how far p… moreeople will go to defend their favorite characters. Yes, he is. No questions asked. You can say all you want about "his heart being in the right place" but even if Clem tries to level with him and tells him to stop acting so weird and that she shot Lee, he refuses to even look at her and continues to get mad at her. Lee would never have done that. Luke never did that. Even Jane never did that and she didn't know Clem half as well as Kenny did. I would have preferred if they'd just left him alone the way they did in Season 1. That was an incredibly, stupidly brave thing he did and it was admirable. But the fact that he made it out of there completely surrounded with no way out (which isn't logical to begin with and is my #1 petpeeve of any plot twist that Telltale has come up with, second being David's surv… [view original content]
Basically i wanted you to respond to my defence of your original comment. You seemingly ignored my points and just said "he was doing this and that to manipulate her" without challenging what i said in defence which was this:
He didn't do anything to his own advantage where evidence clearly shows he was considering the welfare of Clem and AJ and even the rest of the group but as i said before even though his plan was debatably bad, the good intent was still there.
The player can disagree with everything he says and the conversation ends with him saying he's disappointed, nothing more, no forcing her, no asshole behaviour to her, zilch!
I also said (which is virtually repeated from the first bolded comment above):
Manipulation is perceived as a negative trait. Whenever the word manipulate is mentioned, 99% of people will believe something is negative. Kenny however was not doing so in a negative light in any way during that scene. He was persuading Clementine for what he felt was for the good of AJ and everyone else and not thinking of himself, he even admitted Wellington might be bullshit but he wanted to hold onto hope, which is one of the main things that had kept him going
And then i provided an example to argue your view of manipulation by comparing it to persuasion:
If an advertisment presents a product in an attractive manner and promotes its best features, that's persuasion. However, if an advertisement misrepresents the
product, or uses misleading terms in describing it, that is
manipulation. So just think on that for a moment.
So there you have it. If you can challenge what i said with a decent argument that supports your view then i will say no more about it unless of course i have something else to back mine up with. That's all i am asking.
I knew and waited for someone to say that as it was predictiable someone was going to. Name one time a Kenny was abusive to Clem, I'll even count emotional abusive since there isn't true physical abuse, where he didn't regret it nor apologized for it and knew he was wrong in anger. Every person who says that, uses the same excuse of when he got angry over Sarita dying, yet again it is one of the things he regrets repeatingly and says that throughout s2 and in s3 and said she wasn't to blame his emotions took over which you can't really blame him as I'm sure you would have acted the same giving the situation if you relived losing your partner over something stupid again, did you expect him to be all nicey and calm right after her death? Then you don't know Kenny or human basic human behaviour. (Sorry urban accidently linked your name
He didn't do anything to his own advantage where evidence clearly shows he was considering the welfare of Clem and AJ and even the rest of the group but as i said before even though his plan was debatably bad, the good intent was still there.
The player can disagree with everything he says and the conversation ends with him saying he's disappointed, nothing more, no forcing her, no asshole behaviour to her, zilch!
He still had a hissy fit...and in the end when things hit the fan...it was his way or the highway...or do you just want to forget what came after?
Manipulation is perceived as a negative trait. Whenever the word manipulate is mentioned, 99% of people will believe something is negative. Kenny however was not doing so in a negative light in any way during that scene. He was persuading Clementine for what he felt was for the good of AJ and everyone else and not thinking of himself, he even admitted Wellington might be bullshit but he wanted to hold onto hope, which is one of the main things that had kept him going
Manipulation is neither good nor bad...you can manipulate for good reasons...it is just that Kenny's ideas were shit....if he had doubt why then go through with it with one child hurt and another needing formula? This goes back to Kenny never listens to anyone...he will just grunt and say nothing and then do as he pleases no matter what everyone else thinks.
If an advertisment presents a product in an attractive manner and promotes its best features, that's persuasion. However, if an advertisement misrepresents the
product, or uses misleading terms in describing it, that is
manipulation. So just think on that for a moment.
No that is false advertisement...manipulation is different....manipulation swaying someone to your course of action by planting seeds of doubt in someone's head about the other course of action or the people who back those positions. By calling Mike and Bonnie ungrateful and claiming Jane has no idea about respect or loyalty..he is planting the idea of doubt about their characters.
sigh well i had repeated it several times but ok.
Basically i wanted you to respond to my defence of your original comment. You seemingly… more ignored my points and just said "he was doing this and that to manipulate her" without challenging what i said in defence which was this:
He didn't do anything to his own advantage where evidence clearly shows he was considering the welfare of Clem and AJ and even the rest of the group but as i said before even though his plan was debatably bad, the good intent was still there.
The player can disagree with everything he says and the conversation ends with him saying he's disappointed, nothing more, no forcing her, no asshole behaviour to her, zilch!
I also said (which is virtually repeated from the first bolded comment above):
Manipulation is perceived as a negative trait. Whenever the word manipulate is mentioned, 99% of people will believe something is negative. Kenny however was not doing … [view original content]
The only way you get Kenny to apologize in the tent scene is if you say nothing at all. The thing is, even if Kenny does apologize for his actions, he continues to lose his temper and act off of his impulse decisions. Of course I don't expect him to be perfectly peachy and fine, but that doesn't mean he has to take it out on Clementine. And I know human behavior just fine. You just don't take your personal problems out on a kid, regardless of the situation. It's not her fault.
He says "The hell do you know, Clementine?" As if he isn't someone who knows she's lost people, as if he doesn't know what she's gone through. He was there so he has no excuse to do this. And THEN if she tells him she had to shoot Lee herself, all he says is "I don't need to hear this sh*t. I can't even look at you right now." He doesn't try to comfort her or even relate to her. He just pushes her away and plays the blaming game. The fact that the only way he'll apologize to you is if you shut up and take it is astounding.
Sorry, but this amongst other times where he's treated her badly just make him unfavorable to me. (No worries, friend )
I knew and waited for someone to say that as it was predictiable someone was going to. Name one time a Kenny was abusive to Clem, I'll even … morecount emotional abusive since there isn't true physical abuse, where he didn't regret it nor apologized for it and knew he was wrong in anger. Every person who says that, uses the same excuse of when he got angry over Sarita dying, yet again it is one of the things he regrets repeatingly and says that throughout s2 and in s3 and said she wasn't to blame his emotions took over which you can't really blame him as I'm sure you would have acted the same giving the situation if you relived losing your partner over something stupid again, did you expect him to be all nicey and calm right after her death? Then you don't know Kenny or human basic human behaviour. (Sorry urban accidently linked your name
He still had a hissy fit...and in the end when things hit the fan...it was his way or the highway...or do you just want to forget what came after?
Having a hissy fit is not what the point is and that was before they sat and talked in the car anyway. His way or the highway? He regularly threatens that when people disagree but he never follows through with the threat because he's never technically abandoned a group of people before if you think about it. Well whether the player agreed or not, after Clem got shot they had to take off in a hurry either way. Kenny did get the truck working and took the initiative to head off to find Wellington which btw (and yeah this is true) even i did not agree with his plan to find Wellington when they didn't know where to go. I wouldn't have gone back to Howe's either though because when Clem woke up, Jane said they had been driving for a couple of hours? That means they would have been miles from Howes and probably a lot closer to Wellington anyway and getting low on petrol/gas. Why didn't Jane try to stop Kenny driving so far earlier? Bad writing again perhaps?
Do i want to forget what came after? I'm not the one who conveniently forget things like someone i know lol but if someone brings it up, i am more than happy to discuss. I assume you are talking about the end scene?
Manipulation is neither good nor bad...you can manipulate for good reasons...it is just that Kenny's ideas were shit....if he had doubt why then go through with it with one child hurt and another needing formula? This goes back to Kenny never listens to anyone...he will just grunt and say nothing and then do as he pleases no matter what everyone else thinks.
Going back to Howe's was also a risk. No one knew if the herd had moved on, also going back ran the risk that any of Carver's men could still have been hiding out there and may have shot them on sight upon return and again why didn't Jane stop him sooner instead of letting him drive for miles? There are many reasons that BOTH plans were risky/bad. They were all in a really shitty situation.
They must have had some formula already for AJ because how the hell could he survive for 9 days before reaching Wellington/Howe's. Bad writing again?
manipulation swaying someone to your course of action by planting seeds of doubt in someone's head about the other course of action or the people who back those positions. By calling Mike and Bonnie ungrateful and claiming Jane has no idea about respect or loyalty..he is planting the idea of doubt about their characters.
sigh if Clem had been against his idea and he continued to try and change her mind then this discussion wouldn't have even began in the first place. As i have repeated several times, if the player disagrees, the conversation ends. He does not try to manipulate her, he says how disappointed he is and that is all. If he had continued to press on then i would be agreeing with you right now. And Kenny did not plant seeds of doubt about the other course of action, they didn't even discuss Howe's or anywhere else when they were sat in the truck and as for "the people who back those positions", he didn't call Mike and Bonnie ungrateful, he only mentioned Mike and said he thought he would have had more sense and was saying that more to himself than anything because he didn't say it like "Mike has no sense don't you agree Clem?" which would have been challenging her opinion which he didn't.
As for Jane, what he said about her was how he felt and was just running his mouth as usual about what he thinks of her and that was in no way a tactic to sway Clem's mind. In fact the respect and loyalty line is said before he has even got the truck working so what you said there is invalid because it's before the group even discussed the plan of action. In the truck all he mentioned about Jane is that she didn't know what Lee knew which is putting the children first, again it was him stating his opinion about Jane and nothing else. There was no tactic or trying to change Clem's view, he didn't push her to agreeing with that view so that is why it is not manipulation and just Kenny voicing his honest yet controversial opinions about people and that is all! You feel it is manipulation because it's Kenny and you don't like him. If it was anyone else in the truck with Clem you would have a change of heart, that i am pretty sure of.
He didn't do anything to his own advantage where evidence clearly shows he was considering the welfare of Clem and AJ and even the rest of t… morehe group but as i said before even though his plan was debatably bad, the good intent was still there.
The player can disagree with everything he says and the conversation ends with him saying he's disappointed, nothing more, no forcing her, no asshole behaviour to her, zilch!
He still had a hissy fit...and in the end when things hit the fan...it was his way or the highway...or do you just want to forget what came after?
Manipulation is perceived as a negative trait. Whenever the word manipulate is mentioned, 99% of people will believe something is negative. Kenny however was not doing so in a negative light in any way during that scene. He was persuading Clementine for what he felt was for the good of AJ and everyone else and not thinking of himself, he even admitted Wellington might be … [view original content]
so have you even played episode 5 of season 2? Because he does apologize to Clem when you go get him to go back to the fire before the scene about Luke s birthday.
The only way you get Kenny to apologize in the tent scene is if you say nothing at all. The thing is, even if Kenny does apologize for his a… morections, he continues to lose his temper and act off of his impulse decisions. Of course I don't expect him to be perfectly peachy and fine, but that doesn't mean he has to take it out on Clementine. And I know human behavior just fine. You just don't take your personal problems out on a kid, regardless of the situation. It's not her fault.
He says "The hell do you know, Clementine?" As if he isn't someone who knows she's lost people, as if he doesn't know what she's gone through. He was there so he has no excuse to do this. And THEN if she tells him she had to shoot Lee herself, all he says is "I don't need to hear this sh*t. I can't even look at you right now." He doesn't try to comfort her or even relate to her. He just pushes her away and plays the blaming game. The fact that the only way he'll apol… [view original content]
No...I wouldn't ...if it had been anyone else that did all that shit during season 2...I still would have wanted an option to slap the shit out of them. But I do agree....bad writing....bad writing....they had no idea how they were going to wrap the season up....why they do not just write this shit out months in advance of production and get a script doctor to tighten things up..I will never know...it is like they love to just wing it.
He still had a hissy fit...and in the end when things hit the fan...it was his way or the highway...or do you just want to forget what came … moreafter?
Having a hissy fit is not what the point is and that was before they sat and talked in the car anyway. His way or the highway? He regularly threatens that when people disagree but he never follows through with the threat because he's never technically abandoned a group of people before if you think about it. Well whether the player agreed or not, after Clem got shot they had to take off in a hurry either way. Kenny did get the truck working and took the initiative to head off to find Wellington which btw (and yeah this is true) even i did not agree with his plan to find Wellington when they didn't know where to go. I wouldn't have gone back to Howe's either though because when Clem woke up, Jane said they had been driving for a couple of hours? That means they would have been miles from How… [view original content]
I agree. The writing has been getting worse since 2013. At least with Naughty Dog you know you are going to be given a fantastic game as they know what they are doing and how to make a good game. They take their time making it and the end quality has always been fantastic. I don't mind waiting years for release because i know it will be worth it in the end. That's why i am looking forward TLOU2.
No...I wouldn't ...if it had been anyone else that did all that shit during season 2...I still would have wanted an option to slap the shit … moreout of them. But I do agree....bad writing....bad writing....they had no idea how they were going to wrap the season up....why they do not just write this shit out months in advance of production and get a script doctor to tighten things up..I will never know...it is like they love to just wing it.
I wanted to also add that Sean Vanaman and his team knew what they wanted early on. From Ep2 they had planned that Lee would die and that The Stranger would confront them at the end as well. They had a plan in place. But TT's games after this you could see just weren't as good and have become much worse
No...I wouldn't ...if it had been anyone else that did all that shit during season 2...I still would have wanted an option to slap the shit … moreout of them. But I do agree....bad writing....bad writing....they had no idea how they were going to wrap the season up....why they do not just write this shit out months in advance of production and get a script doctor to tighten things up..I will never know...it is like they love to just wing it.
I wanted to also add that Sean Vanaman and his team knew what they wanted early on. From Ep2 they had planned that Lee would die and that Th… moree Stranger would confront them at the end as well. They had a plan in place. But TT's games after this you could see just weren't as good and have become much worse
I liked TLoU...just did not like the characters in it....and you may be remembering it in a better light than it deserves....I never had a PS3 so I only got to see the details from youtube reviews and such...but when it was released..TLoU was a god awful mess that was even money if it was going to crash...fail to load levels fully...or even glitch out your saves. What they do...they do well enough..but remember...ND does very linear story telling. Even though in TWD lately choices have at most minor impact...it does change up reams of dialogue that takes more time to get written than if you were just doing 1 way writing. It is also why RPgs like The Witcher are more challenging and expensive undertakings than like the Nathan Drake Series.
I just think TT needs to scale back how many projects they have going at a time.
I agree. The writing has been getting worse since 2013. At least with Naughty Dog you know you are going to be given a fantastic game as the… morey know what they are doing and how to make a good game. They take their time making it and the end quality has always been fantastic. I don't mind waiting years for release because i know it will be worth it in the end. That's why i am looking forward TLOU2.
Telltale are still sinking slowly
The only way you get Kenny to apologize in the tent scene is if you say nothing at all. The thing is, even if Kenny does apologize for his a… morections, he continues to lose his temper and act off of his impulse decisions. Of course I don't expect him to be perfectly peachy and fine, but that doesn't mean he has to take it out on Clementine. And I know human behavior just fine. You just don't take your personal problems out on a kid, regardless of the situation. It's not her fault.
He says "The hell do you know, Clementine?" As if he isn't someone who knows she's lost people, as if he doesn't know what she's gone through. He was there so he has no excuse to do this. And THEN if she tells him she had to shoot Lee herself, all he says is "I don't need to hear this sh*t. I can't even look at you right now." He doesn't try to comfort her or even relate to her. He just pushes her away and plays the blaming game. The fact that the only way he'll apol… [view original content]
In my opinion, unfortunately, YES, but that doesn't make him a bad person by default.
While I may be biased, not being Kenny's biggest fan - though that isn't entirely the character's fault, as much as ... certain communities - I did say, even before the choice at the end of the season and I got my preferred ending, that Kenny did show signs of being abusive. Does that make him some vile piece of work? Absolutely not. I may not like him, but it takes more than one thing for a bad person to be evil. One of my favourite books, a short story by Robert Cormier called Heroes, has a fantastic line about this kind of stuff:
"Does that one sin of mine wipe away all the good things?"
And I think it's worth remembering for all characters. Just because they fuck up, at any one point, that doesn't systematically wipe away all the good they've done. So Luke isn't a bad person, just because he made the mistake of slipping up and having sex with Jane. Now, if he'd repeatedly done stuff like that, it would make him worse off. But he did one bad thing, in that moment, so that doesn't necessarily make him 'bad'. If a character incessantly does 'evil' things, then that's different. But just doing one particular thing doesn't make someone inherently evil. But I'm going off track.
Why do I think Kenny's abusive?
I think there are lots of hints dropped by Telltale that Kenny was abusive towards Clementine. Besides the obvious one - yelling at her after Sarita died, which is a form of verbal abuse - there are other signs, not even just aimed at Clementine. And, no, I'm not just referring to Arvo, either. For example:
Refusing to listen to her opinion about going back to Howe's, citing that Jane was putting ideas in her head. Relegating the child's opinion, and indeed Jane's opinion, and pulling the victim card that he's being ganged up on when he doesn't get his way. "Oh, I see how it is, everyone's gangin' up on Kenny!" He berated Jane for not letting Clementine have an opinion, but if Clementine's opinion differs from his it's someone else's fault.
Saying he 'ought to slap her' if she expresses maybe Lee shouldn't have risked his life for her.
Snapping at Sarita in the lodge, refusing to let her do any work. Sarita does show signs of being scared of him, in that moment, as her facial expression falters before she plasters on a smile and talks to Clementine again.
To add onto this - Sarita seems too nervous to ask Kenny about who he was before they met, having to ask a little girl about him, and getting nervous if she says 'he's the same old Kenny'. This suggests she's hoping his behaviour is a recent development, and not a lifelong thing. However, as seen in the below point, it's possible he was.
He cites that he learned respect from his dad, who was a 'mean sum'bitch.' Often, abusers come from abusers, and it's not an easy chain to break.
Beating a teenager after his sister died, to the point of - in my game - knocking him unconscious.
Having a snide remark for Clementine if, supposing she watches Carver die, she stands up to Arvo. "What? Lost your taste for this sorta thing?" These kind of words are inflammatory, hurtful and especially nasty to say to a child.
Shoving Clementine harshly with a fierce 'get outta my way' when he doesn't find AJ after Jane hides him. Fundamentally, at its core, he shoves her with a harsh motion. There's an audible 'thump', and Clementine scuttles to one side. Notice how scared of him she looks in this shot, just before she's shoved:
Adding to this point, if you pick 'Jane, go' - I can't remember the exact option off the top of my head, and I'm too lazy at the moment to go back and find it - Jane genuinely sounds terrified as she chokes out "Clem", which could be a sign that she's also affected by the man's behavior. Or she's just scared she's going to die. I don't know.
Throwing her to one side, determinently, so he can move her out the way and attack Jane. Don't mistake me here; Jane is also guilty of this, determinently, but this is not the point being raised. The action is the action. Kenny can shove Clementine, knowingly, twice in the span of a couple of minutes.
Just because an event is determinant, that doesn't make it any more or less valid to bring up in a debate about a choice based game. Further, the argument of 'he doesn't mean it' falls flat on its face, as you don't have to mean to abuse someone. People with Intermittent Explosive Disorder or who have issues with anger are not always in control of their actions, but these actions are abusive. Hurting other people, yelling at them, all these things are abusive. Fundamentally, then, following these logical premises, Kenny does abusive things. And while he may apologise, and cool off afterwards, that almost proves it more that he is abusive.
The Cycle of Abuse
The below diagram is the cycle of abuse. The cycle of abuse is a social theory developed in 1979 by Lenore E. Walker, showing the telltale signs of an abusive relationship:
This is a social cycle which is widely accepted, and its stages align with how Kenny treats Clementine. If you want to read more, just google 'Cycle of Abuse', there are pages upon pages out there about it. Looking at each individual point, episode four and five of Season Two charts this cycle in a really effective manner. One of the many reasons I love Season Two is the way it focuses so much on individual character struggles, and group drama, in lieu of a set in stone 'goal'. But, yea, lets look at each 'step' of the cycle, and where Kenny and Clementine figure into it:
1 - Tensions Building
Victim becomes fearful and feels the need to placate the abuser.
2 - Incident
Verbal, emotional and physical abuse... Anger, blaming.
3 - Reconciliation
Abuser apologises, gives excuses...
4 - Calm
Incident is "forgotten", there is no abuse taking place.
The thing that makes this cycle so bitter, for me, is how inescapable it seems to be. The tone of season two was so well orchestrated, and this angle of Kenny's character was really well explored, in my mind. While I won't say he's a bad person owing to this behavior, because I do believe there is good somewhere in there, I also can't put my hands up and say he's a good person, either. Like all characters of The Walking Dead, he's one of the many shades of grey that make up the spectrum of morality.
Looking at these actions, though, he is - or at least shows the traits of being - abusive.
I'm not going to get into an argument, over this, I'm just leaving my thoughts here and 'nopeing' out of the discussion. I've not used any ad hominem attacks, I haven't said anything which can't be backed up with evidence - whether in game or real life - and I don't think that leaves something up to debate. Sorry if it's a little on the long side, being a philosophy student does tend to make me love to write up long analysis of my 'arguments', if you will. Every point I've made is something that is observable in game or observable in real life studies of psychology, and I've done my very best to put personal feelings aside when I wrote this. So, yea, no arguing from me.
For the last time: Please please please do not expect me to reply to this, unless I'm free from writing stories and stuff, as I'd really rather not argue. This is as opinion free as I can make it, looking at it from just what the actions are and with the studies I've attached to back it up, and I really feel too tired to argue with anyone. Just figured this was worth sharing with you all. Cheers!
And I think it's worth remembering for all characters. Just because they fuck up, at any one point, that doesn't systematically wipe away all the good they've done.
If only people recognized this instead of holding grudges for a single minor slight. But I guess that's why Kenny and David have fans, eh?
He cites that he learned respect from his dad, who was a 'mean sum'bitch.' Often, abusers come from abusers, and it's not an easy chain to break.
Yeah, I always thought that was a bit on the nose.
In my opinion, unfortunately, YES, but that doesn't make him a bad person by default.
While I may be biased, not being Kenny's biggest fa… moren - though that isn't entirely the character's fault, as much as ... certain communities - I did say, even before the choice at the end of the season and I got my preferred ending, that Kenny did show signs of being abusive. Does that make him some vile piece of work? Absolutely not. I may not like him, but it takes more than one thing for a bad person to be evil. One of my favourite books, a short story by Robert Cormier called Heroes, has a fantastic line about this kind of stuff:
"Does that one sin of mine wipe away all the good things?"
And I think it's worth remembering for all characters. Just because they fuck up, at any one point, that doesn't systematically wipe away all the good they've done. So Luke isn't a bad person, just because he made the mistake of slipping up and having sex… [view original content]
Fair enough. I haven't enjoyed any game post 2012 from Telltale sadly. TWAU was ok-ish but i could see it was starting to become limited compared to TWD S1. I enjoyed the humour and general story of TFTBL but again I couldn't enjoy it as much as walking dead.
God awful mess? Because it crashed and had glitches? Sorry if i have misunderstood what you said here.
Well i never had those issues, i rememeber it in a very deserving light in my opinion. I found it truly amazing and i loved the characters in the game and their relationship was brilliant. The gameplay, graphics and music was epic and the storyline was incredible. I like the Uncharted series the best though.
We all have our likes and dislikes, i get what you are saying but i would choose ND over TT any day of the week these days
I liked TLoU...just did not like the characters in it....and you may be remembering it in a better light than it deserves....I never had a P… moreS3 so I only got to see the details from youtube reviews and such...but when it was released..TLoU was a god awful mess that was even money if it was going to crash...fail to load levels fully...or even glitch out your saves. What they do...they do well enough..but remember...ND does very linear story telling. Even though in TWD lately choices have at most minor impact...it does change up reams of dialogue that takes more time to get written than if you were just doing 1 way writing. It is also why RPgs like The Witcher are more challenging and expensive undertakings than like the Nathan Drake Series.
I just think TT needs to scale back how many projects they have going at a time.
Incorrect. He will apologize no matter what in the camp scene. Also him yelling what do you know is determinate and only happens if you argue with him, if you have his back he agrees with clem and leaves the tent acknowledging he was wrong.
The only way you get Kenny to apologize in the tent scene is if you say nothing at all. The thing is, even if Kenny does apologize for his a… morections, he continues to lose his temper and act off of his impulse decisions. Of course I don't expect him to be perfectly peachy and fine, but that doesn't mean he has to take it out on Clementine. And I know human behavior just fine. You just don't take your personal problems out on a kid, regardless of the situation. It's not her fault.
He says "The hell do you know, Clementine?" As if he isn't someone who knows she's lost people, as if he doesn't know what she's gone through. He was there so he has no excuse to do this. And THEN if she tells him she had to shoot Lee herself, all he says is "I don't need to hear this sh*t. I can't even look at you right now." He doesn't try to comfort her or even relate to her. He just pushes her away and plays the blaming game. The fact that the only way he'll apol… [view original content]
Hey back again, came across this on the web and thought i'd leave this here for you:
To manipulate someone means to force that person into doing something while hiding the effects or problems that can occur in doing that work. Kenny did not hide any "effects or problems" because he did not know whether they'd find Wellington or that there would be problems along the way (or at least did not think that far ahead, thus couldn't be scheming) so how can that be manipulation in your view?
As for the persuasion paragraph, it speaks for itself. Persuasion means to persuade someone in doing something with providing reasons, by influencing them and showing them and giving them the full view of the work. Kenny did this by sharing his beliefs about Wellington, whether it existed or not isn't the point, his reasons for persuading her was the urgency to make sure AJ gets somewhere safe, reminding Clem about what Lee did to keep her safe, all of this was "persuasion" to get her to trust him but not in a scheming way at all.
He knew his earlier reaction to the group caused problems and that is why he trusted Clem and told her these things because he believed she would try and keep the group together.
Well anyway, i wanted to finish this by sending that to you. Been busy the last few days so not been able to finish the post till now.
He didn't do anything to his own advantage where evidence clearly shows he was considering the welfare of Clem and AJ and even the rest of t… morehe group but as i said before even though his plan was debatably bad, the good intent was still there.
The player can disagree with everything he says and the conversation ends with him saying he's disappointed, nothing more, no forcing her, no asshole behaviour to her, zilch!
He still had a hissy fit...and in the end when things hit the fan...it was his way or the highway...or do you just want to forget what came after?
Manipulation is perceived as a negative trait. Whenever the word manipulate is mentioned, 99% of people will believe something is negative. Kenny however was not doing so in a negative light in any way during that scene. He was persuading Clementine for what he felt was for the good of AJ and everyone else and not thinking of himself, he even admitted Wellington might be … [view original content]
While I won't deny that Kenny's anger towards Clementine is abuse. it's worth noting that Kenny was going through the anger stage of the five stages of grief due to Sarita's sudden death/zombie bite at the time. and he most definitely would not have lashed out at Clementine had that not been the case.
In my opinion, unfortunately, YES, but that doesn't make him a bad person by default.
While I may be biased, not being Kenny's biggest fa… moren - though that isn't entirely the character's fault, as much as ... certain communities - I did say, even before the choice at the end of the season and I got my preferred ending, that Kenny did show signs of being abusive. Does that make him some vile piece of work? Absolutely not. I may not like him, but it takes more than one thing for a bad person to be evil. One of my favourite books, a short story by Robert Cormier called Heroes, has a fantastic line about this kind of stuff:
"Does that one sin of mine wipe away all the good things?"
And I think it's worth remembering for all characters. Just because they fuck up, at any one point, that doesn't systematically wipe away all the good they've done. So Luke isn't a bad person, just because he made the mistake of slipping up and having sex… [view original content]
Except Kenny was not providing the full set of information and was slanting the positives in his favor....but at this point we are not going to budge on our positions so let us not.
Hey back again, came across this on the web and thought i'd leave this here for you:
To manipulate someone means to force that person… more into doing something while hiding the effects or problems that can occur in doing that work. Kenny did not hide any "effects or problems" because he did not know whether they'd find Wellington or that there would be problems along the way (or at least did not think that far ahead, thus couldn't be scheming) so how can that be manipulation in your view?
As for the persuasion paragraph, it speaks for itself. Persuasion means to persuade someone in doing something with providing reasons, by influencing them and showing them and giving them the full view of the work. Kenny did this by sharing his beliefs about Wellington, whether it existed or not isn't the point, his reasons for persuading her was the urgency to make sure AJ gets somewhere safe, reminding Clem about what Lee did to keep her safe, all of … [view original content]
I was playing Road To Survival (a mobile game for the comics which features game characters too.) I said in my faction how I want Kenny. Someone said the same thing. "Kenny is abusive, I'm glad I picked Jane." I told them off, listing reasons why Kenny is good and Jane is bad. I told them that it's their turn. They said "well if you pick Kane, Clem is nicer to Gabe. That's my defence." WHAT!?!?? What kind of fucking defence is that?
Kenny in s1 ep1:
He gives Lee a ride even if he let Duck die.
He saves Lee from a walker, even if he let Duck die and told Kenny that he killed Shawn.
Kenny in s1 ep2:
Kenny byes Lee time to save shitbird' teacher.
Kenny doesn't eat unless his family eats.
Kenny gets an RV working in-case of emergency.
Kenny gets suspicious and his suspicion ends up saving everyone.
Kenny makes sure a "6 foot 4, 300 pound, seriously pissed of dead guy." Is actually dead.
Kenny notices all of the supplies that end up saving everyone from starvation.
Kenny in s1 ep3:
Kenny tells lee to leave the girl to by them time. If Lee does then they can get everything from the store.
He conducted the train and brought them to where they needed to be.
He shows Omid how to conduct the train in case something happens to him.
Kenny in s1 ep4:
All he did was help repair the boat.
Kenny in s1 ep5:
Kenny can cuts off your arm for you if it's just Lee and Kenny and Ben can come too.
Kenny can fight off Vernon alone for the boat.
Kenny can risk his own life for shitbird (who he hated the entire time).
Kenny accidentally makes Christa drop Clementine's walkie talkie, so he risks his life for it.
Kenny in s2 ep2:
Kenny feeds and shelters all the people who he pointed a gun at.
Kenny tries to kill Carver when he first sees him, trying to avoid future conflict. But then surrensors so everyone lives.
Kenny in s2 ep3:
Kenny helps everyone escape.
Kenny gets beaten to avoid a little girl getting in trouble.
Kenny kills the abusive, rapist, slaver.
Kenny saves people in the herd i think, correct me if I'm wrong.
Kenny in s2 ep4:
Kenny helps deliver a baby.
Kenny kills a walker about to eat the baby.
Kenny in s2 ep5:
Kenny kills the people who want to kill his group.
Kenny is abusive to Arvo but remember, even if you don't rob him he'll rob you. And he gives Clementine the death stare.
Kenny gets a truck working for EVERYONE even the people he hates.
Kenny let's Jane (who he hates) come along with him, Clem, and the baby.
After the truck crashes, Kenny asks the person he hates if she's alright.
Kenny kills the girl who he though killed a fucking baby.
Kenny takes Clementine and the baby to a safe village.
Kenny will leave the only people he cares about if it means they're safe.
Kenny in s3 ep1:
Kenny teaches Clementine how to drive in case Kenny can't.
Kenny puts Aj's blanket on after it falls to the floor. Which leads to his death. He dies putting a baby's blanket on.
Kenny doesn't tell Clementine to save him. Instead he tells her to run.
Kenny in s3 ep4:
Kenny gets firewood for 2 kids to stay warm.
Kenny helps Clementine light the fire.
Kenny tells Clementine she is a good mom.
As you can see all the good shit he did, he is not fucking abusive. Let's look at Jane shall we?
Jane in s2 ep3:
Jane tells everyone about putting on walker guts.
Jane in s2 ep4:
Jane teaches Clementine a technique of killing walkers.
Jane helps save Luke, Clementine and Sarah maybe.
Jane "tries" to save Sarah again.
Jane in s2 ep5:
Jane kills a guy who is about to kill Kenny.
Jane saves Clem from freezing or drowning.
Jane takes Clementine to a giant building that is safe maybe.
Jane in s3 ep1:
No
Jane in s3 ep4:
Jane gets piles of dead guys to make walkers think there are no people around.
As you can fucking see, Kenny did more shit than Jane in the episodes they were both in. Let's see all the wrongs.
Kenny in s1 ep1:
Kenny doesn't save Shawn.
Kenny in s1 ep2:
Kenny says Urban
Kenny kills Larry even though he could still be alive.
Kenny steals from people who could come back.
Kenny in s1 ep3:
Kenny drops Lee when he says he's good.
Kenny suggests letting a girl die a painful death.
Kenny drives off when Lilly isn't in the RV.
Kenny avoids Duck's bite. Risking everyone's life.
Kenny in s1 ep4:
Kenny is a dick to everyone.
Kenny drinks alcohol instead of watching a little girl.
Kenny wants to fucking kill Ben.
Kenny won't save a little girl because of 1 disagreement.
Kenny in s1 ep5:
Kenny makes the pregnant girl cut off someone's arm.
Kenny makes Clementine's favourite toy fall in a hole with walkers.
Kenny in s2 ep2:
Kenny Points a gun at people because they showed up.
Kenny only stops shooting people when it's his wife or a little girl.
Kenny in s2 ep3:
Kenny is a dick.
Kenny fucking bashes someone's skull in after they're dead.
Kenny yells at a little girl.
Kenny in s2 ep4:
Kenny yells at a little girl and blames the little girl for his wife's death.
Kenny overkills a walker.
Kenny in s2 ep5:
Is a dick to Arvo.
Is a dick.
Kills someone in front of a little girl.
Kenny in s3 ep1:
No
Kenny in s3 ep4:
No
Kenny did a lot of bad shit, but he was in the game longer. The episodes with Jane and Kenny make Jane do more bad shit than Kenny.
Jane in s2 ep3:
Jane is a bitch.
Jane shoots a guys dick off after she convinces him to be good.
Jane doesn't wait for anyone.
Jane doesn't help anyone.
Jane in s2 ep 4:
Jane gets mad at a little girl for no reason.
Jane doesn't care if Sarah dies in the trailer.
Jane barely fucking tries to save Sarah.
Jane has sex instead of watching for people.
Jane robs a Russian kid.
Jane fucking abandons the group for no reason.
Jane in s2 ep5:
Jane waits until the end of the gun fight to help.
Jane gives a little girl alcohol.
Jane doesn't help Luke or Bonnie, only Clementine.
Jane is a bitch to Kenny for no reason.
Jane leaves a kid in a blanket, in a car. Baby could over-heat.
Jane makes Kenny go fucking insane.
Jane fights someone in front of a little girl.
Jane makes a little girl shoot her father figure.
Jane expects you to go with her after everything she does.
If you go with her, she doesn't even consider letting the family in.
Jane in s3 ep1:
Jane fucking brands a little girl with another kid's name.
Jane kills herself when she's taking care of a baby and a little girl and is pregnant with a baby.
Jane in s3 ep4:
Jane doesn't at all fucking help Clementine. In fact she says Clementine is better than her.
Get rid of season 1 bad stuff for Kenny, and Jane did more wrong than Kenny. I don't get why some people like Jane. Even people who hate Kenny hate Jane more than Kenny. Stop saying Kenny is abusive and Jane is a day of sunshine. Kenny had a loving kid and Wife. He had 2 other kids that weren't related either. So get your fucking facts straight.
Funny how these are two separate things, but proceed. He was also gonna leave him behind, presumably to either starve or be killed some other way.
Kenny did a lot of bad shit, but he was in the game longer.
To be** completely** fair here, that's not fair to anyone. Though considering this is Jane we're talking about and ANF would somehow do it +3x worse, I don't think it really matters too much.
Jane doesn't care if Sarah dies in the trailer.
Oh, she cares...that Clementine is trying to save her instead of listening to Jane.
Jane barely fucking tries to save Sarah.
Jane has sex instead of watching for people.
Jane robs a Russian kid.
Holy shit, did I skim this so fast that I misinterpreted what it said for a second!
Jane fucking brands a little girl with another kid's name.
...Seriously?
I mean, sure, she only left sister to a presumably horrible fate with malicious last words and was fantastically racist to the point of blatantly endangering the lives of those far less fortunate than her, but giving Clementine a tattoo? THAT's going too far!
I was playing Road To Survival (a mobile game for the comics which features game characters too.) I said in my faction how I want Kenny. Som… moreeone said the same thing. "Kenny is abusive, I'm glad I picked Jane." I told them off, listing reasons why Kenny is good and Jane is bad. I told them that it's their turn. They said "well if you pick Kane, Clem is nicer to Gabe. That's my defence." WHAT!?!?? What kind of fucking defence is that?
Kenny in s1 ep1:
He gives Lee a ride even if he let Duck die.
He saves Lee from a walker, even if he let Duck die and told Kenny that he killed Shawn.
Kenny in s1 ep2:
Kenny byes Lee time to save shitbird' teacher.
Kenny doesn't eat unless his family eats.
Kenny gets an RV working in-case of emergency.
Kenny gets suspicious and his suspicion ends up saving everyone.
Kenny makes sure a "6 foot 4, 300 pound, seriously pissed of dead guy." Is actually dead.
Kenny notices all of the supplies that end up … [view original content]
Nope. He doesn't apologize in this playthrough (or others) and so far, in all of the playthroughs that I've seen of that scene, the only way he apologizes is if you stay completely silent throughout the whole conversation.
Incorrect. He will apologize no matter what in the camp scene. Also him yelling what do you know is determinate and only happens if you argue with him, if you have his back he agrees with clem and leaves the tent acknowledging he was wrong.
Except Kenny was not providing the full set of information and was slanting the positives in his favor
And he wasn't providing the full set of information because he didn't have/know the information which is my point as to why i said that it can't be manipulation if someone does not know or have the reasons for a motive to use to manipulate someone. None of what he did was cold or callous anyway and the positives mentioned were genuine and things he had been saying ever since then baby was born.
but at this point we are not going to budge on our positions so let us not
Except Kenny was not providing the full set of information and was slanting the positives in his favor....but at this point we are not going to budge on our positions so let us not.
Not gonna spend too long on this, as I'm already a wee bit ratty and I don't want to go off the deep end, but on the other hand I'm mildly peeved that the crux of my argument has been ignored in favor of saying "But he didn't mean it because his girlfriend was dying/dead!" So, I mean, while it's a nice diagram, your premise relies on you having to ignore a fact about abuse in favor of leaning on conjecture. But, okay, let's just say it again.
Abuse.
Does.
Not.
Have.
To.
Be.
Intended.
I said it in my post, and I'm waiting for the counter to it. There isn't one, it's a fact. The fact he was going through a bad time doesn't excuse the fact he acted the way he acted. You don't have to mean it when you yell at someone, or shove them, you can just be acting involuntarily and out of anger, depression, or whatever else. But he still did it. Let me just break it down:
Person A does an abusive action, on multiple occasions.
Abusive actions are abusive.
Therefore, Person A is abusive.
Now, let's try that with the added premise you've tried to slip in:
Person B has lost his girlfriend.
Person B does an abusive action, on multiple occasions.
Abusive actions are abusive.
Therefore, Person B is abusive.
In the nicest way possible, the 'five stages of grief' do not change anything about my argument, and I don't really see why it's worth noting when it doesn't add anything to counter the fact that abuse does not require intent. I literally said it in my post, before talking about the cycle of abuse, so - again, in the nicest way possible - your argument doesn't really do much of anything to counter it, unless you can get around the fact that:
Further, the argument of 'he doesn't mean it' falls flat on its face, as you don't have to mean to abuse someone.
It's a fundamental fact, like an unmarried man is a bachelor. You don't have to mean to abuse someone. But, okay, even if we accept 'okay, it was just Sarita dying/being bitten', how about before she was bitten? I laid out the fact it's implied he's at the least aggressive to her at points, and there's also the fact that he yells at Clementine in the truck to Howe's, pretty much whatever option you pick, when you're in the back of the van and he can yell such wonderful things as:
"Hey! Are you listen' to me? What's the matter with you?!"
To a frightened eleven-year-old. And that was before Sarita got bitten. I hasten to point out that, even if you lose Alvin and Nick prior to that scene, nobody else is snapping at Clementine, only Kenny.
I'm gonna say it one more time, for posterity, because - while it's not your fault - the argument of 'ohh but they were in a bad place' really winds me up, as someone who's heard that from other people throughout my life. It changes the square root of nothing.
Abusive actions do not have to require intention. Even before Sarita's death, Kenny can yell at Clementine, and he does get physically abusive in one instance, minimum, when he's about to fight Jane. I've drawn purely logical and factual conclusions, and I haven't relied on conjecture - which, again, in the nicest way possible, you have with the sentence: he most definitely would not have lashed out at Clementine had that not been the case. I'm unlikely to reply to this, was mostly just pointing out how the pretty diagram changes nothing about my argument, whatsoever.
While I won't deny that Kenny's anger towards Clementine is abuse. it's worth noting that Kenny was going through the anger stage of the fiv… moree stages of grief due to Sarita's sudden death/zombie bite at the time. and he most definitely would not have lashed out at Clementine had that not been the case.
have you even finished season 2 ? i will repeat what i said before Kenny apologizes in episode 5 of season 2 not episode 4 he apologizes when you go talk to him at the power station where the scene with Luke s birthday happens so stop being in denial about it.
Nope. He doesn't apologize in this playthrough (or others) and so far, in all of the playthroughs that I've seen of that scene, the only way he apologizes is if you stay completely silent throughout the whole conversation.
Nope. He doesn't apologize in this playthrough (or others) and so far, in all of the playthroughs that I've seen of that scene, the only way he apologizes is if you stay completely silent throughout the whole conversation.
I've finished all of the seasons. I don't think a single apology makes up for his behavior. In the world of the walking dead, Clementine can do better. There were people who never treated her that way and yes, you can forgive him but in comparison to other people that you have around you there are certainly better options. You can say whatever you want, but it's the individual player's opinion and I personally feel like just because he's apologizes, it doesn't excuse everything that's happened.
I've finished all of the seasons. I don't think a single apology makes up for his behavior. In the world of the walking dead, Clementine can do better. There were people who never treated her that way and yes, you can forgive him but in comparison to other people that you have around you there are certainly better options. You can say whatever you want, but it's the individual player's opinion and I personally feel like just because he's apologizes, it doesn't excuse everything that's happened.
have you even finished season 2 ? i will repeat what i said before Kenny apologizes in episode 5 of season 2 not episode 4 he apologizes whe… moren you go talk to him at the power station where the scene with Luke s birthday happens so stop being in denial about it.
I'm sorry that you feel I missed the point of your argument. I wanted to make it clear with the start of my post that Kenny's actions did constitute as abuse and I in no way condone what he did. I understand completely that no abuse is justified regardless of intent. I simply thought it'd be a good idea to note why Kenny yelled at Clementine, as the root of abuse should always be understood.
Not gonna spend too long on this, as I'm already a wee bit ratty and I don't want to go off the deep end, but on the other hand I'm mildly p… moreeeved that the crux of my argument has been ignored in favor of saying "But he didn't mean it because his girlfriend was dying/dead!" So, I mean, while it's a nice diagram, your premise relies on you having to ignore a fact about abuse in favor of leaning on conjecture. But, okay, let's just say it again.
Abuse.
Does.
Not.
Have.
To.
Be.
Intended.
I said it in my post, and I'm waiting for the counter to it. There isn't one, it's a fact. The fact he was going through a bad time doesn't excuse the fact he acted the way he acted. You don't have to mean it when you yell at someone, or shove them, you can just be acting involuntarily and out of anger, depression, or whatever else. But he still did it. Let me just break it down:
Person A does an abusive action, on multiple occasions.
… [view original content]
Kenny wants Lee to fucking kill Ben.
Fised.
Is a dick to Arvo.
Is a dick.
Funny how these are two separate things, … morebut proceed. He was also gonna leave him behind, presumably to either starve or be killed some other way.
Kenny did a lot of bad shit, but he was in the game longer.
To be** completely** fair here, that's not fair to anyone. Though considering this is Jane we're talking about and ANF would somehow do it +3x worse, I don't think it really matters too much.
Jane doesn't care if Sarah dies in the trailer.
Oh, she cares...that Clementine is trying to save her instead of listening to Jane.
Jane barely fucking tries to save Sarah.
Jane has sex instead of watching for people.
Jane robs a Russian kid.
Holy shit, did I skim this so fast that I misinterpreted what it said for a second!
Jane fucking brands a little girl with another kid's name.
...Serious… [view original content]
I've finished all of the seasons. I don't think a single apology makes up for his behavior. In the world of the walking dead, Clementine can… more do better. There were people who never treated her that way and yes, you can forgive him but in comparison to other people that you have around you there are certainly better options. You can say whatever you want, but it's the individual player's opinion and I personally feel like just because he's apologizes, it doesn't excuse everything that's happened.
For those who say Kenny was abusive, and who use the latter parts of S1 and S2 as evidence for their arguments, you have to remember that Kenny had on both occasions gone through serious trauma, that of losing people he cared about.
Both times, he literally had just lost his family, or people that he considered family. And following events were shown to all of happened within a couple of days of those loses. So for him to be irrational, even wreckless is understandable.
Such trauma changes a person. Look at how many times Rick has acted in either an irrational manner, due to loss, or paranoia due to being in a state of constant danger.
Yet it's interesting that people for the most part will still defend Rick after all of that, yet when it comes to Kenny, people who are fans of both the tv and game series are less forgiving.
Comments
i dont see how Kenny yelling at her after his Girlfriend just died while being in Grief after the worst day in his life where he both Lost his eye and Lost another Loved one so i think that its fair to say that this should not be considered abuse.
What outlashes? The one where he yells at Clem after he just lost his Eye and the woman he loved? Yep real fair to hold it against him or the time where Jane drives him insane with Anger by faking AJ s death in episode 5 and he pushes Clem off which by the way Jane does it too and she is not being controlled by her emotions.
sigh well i had repeated it several times but ok.
Basically i wanted you to respond to my defence of your original comment. You seemingly ignored my points and just said "he was doing this and that to manipulate her" without challenging what i said in defence which was this:
He didn't do anything to his own advantage where evidence clearly shows he was considering the welfare of Clem and AJ and even the rest of the group but as i said before even though his plan was debatably bad, the good intent was still there.
The player can disagree with everything he says and the conversation ends with him saying he's disappointed, nothing more, no forcing her, no asshole behaviour to her, zilch!
I also said (which is virtually repeated from the first bolded comment above):
Manipulation is perceived as a negative trait. Whenever the word manipulate is mentioned, 99% of people will believe something is negative. Kenny however was not doing so in a negative light in any way during that scene. He was persuading Clementine for what he felt was for the good of AJ and everyone else and not thinking of himself, he even admitted Wellington might be bullshit but he wanted to hold onto hope, which is one of the main things that had kept him going
And then i provided an example to argue your view of manipulation by comparing it to persuasion:
If an advertisment presents a product in an attractive manner and promotes its best features, that's persuasion. However, if an advertisement misrepresents the
product, or uses misleading terms in describing it, that is
manipulation. So just think on that for a moment.
So there you have it. If you can challenge what i said with a decent argument that supports your view then i will say no more about it unless of course i have something else to back mine up with. That's all i am asking.
I knew and waited for someone to say that as it was predictiable someone was going to. Name one time a Kenny was abusive to Clem, I'll even count emotional abusive since there isn't true physical abuse, where he didn't regret it nor apologized for it and knew he was wrong in anger. Every person who says that, uses the same excuse of when he got angry over Sarita dying, yet again it is one of the things he regrets repeatingly and says that throughout s2 and in s3 and said she wasn't to blame his emotions took over which you can't really blame him as I'm sure you would have acted the same giving the situation if you relived losing your partner over something stupid again, did you expect him to be all nicey and calm right after her death? Then you don't know Kenny or human basic human behaviour. (Sorry urban accidently linked your name
Kenny doing the new Alt- right Nazi White Supremacist symbol in front of children in hope too brainwash them smh.
The player can disagree with everything he says and the conversation ends with him saying he's disappointed, nothing more, no forcing her, no asshole behaviour to her, zilch!
He still had a hissy fit...and in the end when things hit the fan...it was his way or the highway...or do you just want to forget what came after?
Manipulation is neither good nor bad...you can manipulate for good reasons...it is just that Kenny's ideas were shit....if he had doubt why then go through with it with one child hurt and another needing formula? This goes back to Kenny never listens to anyone...he will just grunt and say nothing and then do as he pleases no matter what everyone else thinks.
product, or uses misleading terms in describing it, that is
manipulation. So just think on that for a moment.
No that is false advertisement...manipulation is different....manipulation swaying someone to your course of action by planting seeds of doubt in someone's head about the other course of action or the people who back those positions. By calling Mike and Bonnie ungrateful and claiming Jane has no idea about respect or loyalty..he is planting the idea of doubt about their characters.
I always knew you both loved each other.
I called it! (Not on this forums tho)
The only way you get Kenny to apologize in the tent scene is if you say nothing at all. The thing is, even if Kenny does apologize for his actions, he continues to lose his temper and act off of his impulse decisions. Of course I don't expect him to be perfectly peachy and fine, but that doesn't mean he has to take it out on Clementine. And I know human behavior just fine. You just don't take your personal problems out on a kid, regardless of the situation. It's not her fault.
He says "The hell do you know, Clementine?" As if he isn't someone who knows she's lost people, as if he doesn't know what she's gone through. He was there so he has no excuse to do this. And THEN if she tells him she had to shoot Lee herself, all he says is "I don't need to hear this sh*t. I can't even look at you right now." He doesn't try to comfort her or even relate to her. He just pushes her away and plays the blaming game. The fact that the only way he'll apologize to you is if you shut up and take it is astounding.
Sorry, but this amongst other times where he's treated her badly just make him unfavorable to me. (No worries, friend
)
Having a hissy fit is not what the point is and that was before they sat and talked in the car anyway. His way or the highway? He regularly threatens that when people disagree but he never follows through with the threat because he's never technically abandoned a group of people before if you think about it. Well whether the player agreed or not, after Clem got shot they had to take off in a hurry either way. Kenny did get the truck working and took the initiative to head off to find Wellington which btw (and yeah this is true) even i did not agree with his plan to find Wellington when they didn't know where to go. I wouldn't have gone back to Howe's either though because when Clem woke up, Jane said they had been driving for a couple of hours? That means they would have been miles from Howes and probably a lot closer to Wellington anyway and getting low on petrol/gas. Why didn't Jane try to stop Kenny driving so far earlier? Bad writing again perhaps?
Do i want to forget what came after? I'm not the one who conveniently forget things like someone i know lol but if someone brings it up, i am more than happy to discuss. I assume you are talking about the end scene?
Going back to Howe's was also a risk. No one knew if the herd had moved on, also going back ran the risk that any of Carver's men could still have been hiding out there and may have shot them on sight upon return and again why didn't Jane stop him sooner instead of letting him drive for miles? There are many reasons that BOTH plans were risky/bad. They were all in a really shitty situation.
They must have had some formula already for AJ because how the hell could he survive for 9 days before reaching Wellington/Howe's. Bad writing again?
sigh if Clem had been against his idea and he continued to try and change her mind then this discussion wouldn't have even began in the first place. As i have repeated several times, if the player disagrees, the conversation ends. He does not try to manipulate her, he says how disappointed he is and that is all. If he had continued to press on then i would be agreeing with you right now. And Kenny did not plant seeds of doubt about the other course of action, they didn't even discuss Howe's or anywhere else when they were sat in the truck and as for "the people who back those positions", he didn't call Mike and Bonnie ungrateful, he only mentioned Mike and said he thought he would have had more sense and was saying that more to himself than anything because he didn't say it like "Mike has no sense don't you agree Clem?" which would have been challenging her opinion which he didn't.
As for Jane, what he said about her was how he felt and was just running his mouth as usual about what he thinks of her and that was in no way a tactic to sway Clem's mind. In fact the respect and loyalty line is said before he has even got the truck working so what you said there is invalid because it's before the group even discussed the plan of action. In the truck all he mentioned about Jane is that she didn't know what Lee knew which is putting the children first, again it was him stating his opinion about Jane and nothing else. There was no tactic or trying to change Clem's view, he didn't push her to agreeing with that view so that is why it is not manipulation and just Kenny voicing his honest yet controversial opinions about people and that is all! You feel it is manipulation because it's Kenny and you don't like him. If it was anyone else in the truck with Clem you would have a change of heart, that i am pretty sure of.
so have you even played episode 5 of season 2? Because he does apologize to Clem when you go get him to go back to the fire before the scene about Luke s birthday.
No...I wouldn't ...if it had been anyone else that did all that shit during season 2...I still would have wanted an option to slap the shit out of them. But I do agree....bad writing....bad writing....they had no idea how they were going to wrap the season up....why they do not just write this shit out months in advance of production and get a script doctor to tighten things up..I will never know...it is like they love to just wing it.
I agree. The writing has been getting worse since 2013. At least with Naughty Dog you know you are going to be given a fantastic game as they know what they are doing and how to make a good game. They take their time making it and the end quality has always been fantastic. I don't mind waiting years for release because i know it will be worth it in the end. That's why i am looking forward TLOU2.
Telltale are still sinking slowly
I wanted to also add that Sean Vanaman and his team knew what they wanted early on. From Ep2 they had planned that Lee would die and that The Stranger would confront them at the end as well. They had a plan in place. But TT's games after this you could see just weren't as good and have become much worse
I dunno...I loved Batman...and some of those writers seemed to do good work...I have some hope...but only time will tell.
I liked TLoU...just did not like the characters in it....and you may be remembering it in a better light than it deserves....I never had a PS3 so I only got to see the details from youtube reviews and such...but when it was released..TLoU was a god awful mess that was even money if it was going to crash...fail to load levels fully...or even glitch out your saves. What they do...they do well enough..but remember...ND does very linear story telling. Even though in TWD lately choices have at most minor impact...it does change up reams of dialogue that takes more time to get written than if you were just doing 1 way writing. It is also why RPgs like The Witcher are more challenging and expensive undertakings than like the Nathan Drake Series.
I just think TT needs to scale back how many projects they have going at a time.
Kenny always apologizes in s2e5 near the campfire scene. He also thanks Clementine for trying to help in the s3e4 flashback
Roflmao you need to post this to r/TheWalkingDeadGame and r/TeamKenny
In my opinion, unfortunately, YES, but that doesn't make him a bad person by default.
While I may be biased, not being Kenny's biggest fan - though that isn't entirely the character's fault, as much as ... certain communities - I did say, even before the choice at the end of the season and I got my preferred ending, that Kenny did show signs of being abusive. Does that make him some vile piece of work? Absolutely not. I may not like him, but it takes more than one thing for a bad person to be evil. One of my favourite books, a short story by Robert Cormier called Heroes, has a fantastic line about this kind of stuff:
And I think it's worth remembering for all characters. Just because they fuck up, at any one point, that doesn't systematically wipe away all the good they've done. So Luke isn't a bad person, just because he made the mistake of slipping up and having sex with Jane. Now, if he'd repeatedly done stuff like that, it would make him worse off. But he did one bad thing, in that moment, so that doesn't necessarily make him 'bad'. If a character incessantly does 'evil' things, then that's different. But just doing one particular thing doesn't make someone inherently evil. But I'm going off track.
Why do I think Kenny's abusive?
I think there are lots of hints dropped by Telltale that Kenny was abusive towards Clementine. Besides the obvious one - yelling at her after Sarita died, which is a form of verbal abuse - there are other signs, not even just aimed at Clementine. And, no, I'm not just referring to Arvo, either. For example:
Refusing to listen to her opinion about going back to Howe's, citing that Jane was putting ideas in her head. Relegating the child's opinion, and indeed Jane's opinion, and pulling the victim card that he's being ganged up on when he doesn't get his way. "Oh, I see how it is, everyone's gangin' up on Kenny!" He berated Jane for not letting Clementine have an opinion, but if Clementine's opinion differs from his it's someone else's fault.
Saying he 'ought to slap her' if she expresses maybe Lee shouldn't have risked his life for her.
Snapping at Sarita in the lodge, refusing to let her do any work. Sarita does show signs of being scared of him, in that moment, as her facial expression falters before she plasters on a smile and talks to Clementine again.
To add onto this - Sarita seems too nervous to ask Kenny about who he was before they met, having to ask a little girl about him, and getting nervous if she says 'he's the same old Kenny'. This suggests she's hoping his behaviour is a recent development, and not a lifelong thing. However, as seen in the below point, it's possible he was.
He cites that he learned respect from his dad, who was a 'mean sum'bitch.' Often, abusers come from abusers, and it's not an easy chain to break.
Beating a teenager after his sister died, to the point of - in my game - knocking him unconscious.
Having a snide remark for Clementine if, supposing she watches Carver die, she stands up to Arvo. "What? Lost your taste for this sorta thing?" These kind of words are inflammatory, hurtful and especially nasty to say to a child.
Shoving Clementine harshly with a fierce 'get outta my way' when he doesn't find AJ after Jane hides him. Fundamentally, at its core, he shoves her with a harsh motion. There's an audible 'thump', and Clementine scuttles to one side. Notice how scared of him she looks in this shot, just before she's shoved:
Adding to this point, if you pick 'Jane, go' - I can't remember the exact option off the top of my head, and I'm too lazy at the moment to go back and find it - Jane genuinely sounds terrified as she chokes out "Clem", which could be a sign that she's also affected by the man's behavior. Or she's just scared she's going to die. I don't know.
Just because an event is determinant, that doesn't make it any more or less valid to bring up in a debate about a choice based game. Further, the argument of 'he doesn't mean it' falls flat on its face, as you don't have to mean to abuse someone. People with Intermittent Explosive Disorder or who have issues with anger are not always in control of their actions, but these actions are abusive. Hurting other people, yelling at them, all these things are abusive. Fundamentally, then, following these logical premises, Kenny does abusive things. And while he may apologise, and cool off afterwards, that almost proves it more that he is abusive.
The Cycle of Abuse
The below diagram is the cycle of abuse. The cycle of abuse is a social theory developed in 1979 by Lenore E. Walker, showing the telltale signs of an abusive relationship:
This is a social cycle which is widely accepted, and its stages align with how Kenny treats Clementine. If you want to read more, just google 'Cycle of Abuse', there are pages upon pages out there about it. Looking at each individual point, episode four and five of Season Two charts this cycle in a really effective manner. One of the many reasons I love Season Two is the way it focuses so much on individual character struggles, and group drama, in lieu of a set in stone 'goal'. But, yea, lets look at each 'step' of the cycle, and where Kenny and Clementine figure into it:
1 - Tensions Building
Victim becomes fearful and feels the need to placate the abuser.
2 - Incident
Verbal, emotional and physical abuse... Anger, blaming.
3 - Reconciliation
Abuser apologises, gives excuses...
4 - Calm
Incident is "forgotten", there is no abuse taking place.
The thing that makes this cycle so bitter, for me, is how inescapable it seems to be. The tone of season two was so well orchestrated, and this angle of Kenny's character was really well explored, in my mind. While I won't say he's a bad person owing to this behavior, because I do believe there is good somewhere in there, I also can't put my hands up and say he's a good person, either. Like all characters of The Walking Dead, he's one of the many shades of grey that make up the spectrum of morality.
Looking at these actions, though, he is - or at least shows the traits of being - abusive.
I'm not going to get into an argument, over this, I'm just leaving my thoughts here and 'nopeing' out of the discussion. I've not used any ad hominem attacks, I haven't said anything which can't be backed up with evidence - whether in game or real life - and I don't think that leaves something up to debate. Sorry if it's a little on the long side, being a philosophy student does tend to make me love to write up long analysis of my 'arguments', if you will. Every point I've made is something that is observable in game or observable in real life studies of psychology, and I've done my very best to put personal feelings aside when I wrote this. So, yea, no arguing from me.
For the last time: Please please please do not expect me to reply to this, unless I'm free from writing stories and stuff, as I'd really rather not argue. This is as opinion free as I can make it, looking at it from just what the actions are and with the studies I've attached to back it up, and I really feel too tired to argue with anyone. Just figured this was worth sharing with you all. Cheers!
If only people recognized this instead of holding grudges for a single minor slight. But I guess that's why Kenny and David have fans, eh?
Yeah, I always thought that was a bit on the nose.
Fair enough. I haven't enjoyed any game post 2012 from Telltale sadly. TWAU was ok-ish but i could see it was starting to become limited compared to TWD S1. I enjoyed the humour and general story of TFTBL but again I couldn't enjoy it as much as walking dead.
God awful mess? Because it crashed and had glitches? Sorry if i have misunderstood what you said here.
Well i never had those issues, i rememeber it in a very deserving light in my opinion. I found it truly amazing and i loved the characters in the game and their relationship was brilliant. The gameplay, graphics and music was epic and the storyline was incredible. I like the Uncharted series the best though.
We all have our likes and dislikes, i get what you are saying but i would choose ND over TT any day of the week these days
Incorrect. He will apologize no matter what in the camp scene. Also him yelling what do you know is determinate and only happens if you argue with him, if you have his back he agrees with clem and leaves the tent acknowledging he was wrong.
Hey back again, came across this on the web and thought i'd leave this here for you:
To manipulate someone means to force that person into doing something while hiding the effects or problems that can occur in doing that work. Kenny did not hide any "effects or problems" because he did not know whether they'd find Wellington or that there would be problems along the way (or at least did not think that far ahead, thus couldn't be scheming) so how can that be manipulation in your view?
As for the persuasion paragraph, it speaks for itself. Persuasion means to persuade someone in doing something with providing reasons, by influencing them and showing them and giving them the full view of the work. Kenny did this by sharing his beliefs about Wellington, whether it existed or not isn't the point, his reasons for persuading her was the urgency to make sure AJ gets somewhere safe, reminding Clem about what Lee did to keep her safe, all of this was "persuasion" to get her to trust him but not in a scheming way at all.
He knew his earlier reaction to the group caused problems and that is why he trusted Clem and told her these things because he believed she would try and keep the group together.
Well anyway, i wanted to finish this by sending that to you. Been busy the last few days so not been able to finish the post till now.
Thanks for reading.
While I won't deny that Kenny's anger towards Clementine is abuse. it's worth noting that Kenny was going through the anger stage of the five stages of grief due to Sarita's sudden death/zombie bite at the time. and he most definitely would not have lashed out at Clementine had that not been the case.
Except Kenny was not providing the full set of information and was slanting the positives in his favor....but at this point we are not going to budge on our positions so let us not.
I was playing Road To Survival (a mobile game for the comics which features game characters too.) I said in my faction how I want Kenny. Someone said the same thing. "Kenny is abusive, I'm glad I picked Jane." I told them off, listing reasons why Kenny is good and Jane is bad. I told them that it's their turn. They said "well if you pick Kane, Clem is nicer to Gabe. That's my defence." WHAT!?!?? What kind of fucking defence is that?
Kenny in s1 ep1:
He gives Lee a ride even if he let Duck die.
He saves Lee from a walker, even if he let Duck die and told Kenny that he killed Shawn.
Kenny in s1 ep2:
Kenny byes Lee time to save shitbird' teacher.
Kenny doesn't eat unless his family eats.
Kenny gets an RV working in-case of emergency.
Kenny gets suspicious and his suspicion ends up saving everyone.
Kenny makes sure a "6 foot 4, 300 pound, seriously pissed of dead guy." Is actually dead.
Kenny notices all of the supplies that end up saving everyone from starvation.
Kenny in s1 ep3:
Kenny tells lee to leave the girl to by them time. If Lee does then they can get everything from the store.
He conducted the train and brought them to where they needed to be.
He shows Omid how to conduct the train in case something happens to him.
Kenny in s1 ep4:
All he did was help repair the boat.
Kenny in s1 ep5:
Kenny can cuts off your arm for you if it's just Lee and Kenny and Ben can come too.
Kenny can fight off Vernon alone for the boat.
Kenny can risk his own life for shitbird (who he hated the entire time).
Kenny accidentally makes Christa drop Clementine's walkie talkie, so he risks his life for it.
Kenny in s2 ep2:
Kenny feeds and shelters all the people who he pointed a gun at.
Kenny tries to kill Carver when he first sees him, trying to avoid future conflict. But then surrensors so everyone lives.
Kenny in s2 ep3:
Kenny helps everyone escape.
Kenny gets beaten to avoid a little girl getting in trouble.
Kenny kills the abusive, rapist, slaver.
Kenny saves people in the herd i think, correct me if I'm wrong.
Kenny in s2 ep4:
Kenny helps deliver a baby.
Kenny kills a walker about to eat the baby.
Kenny in s2 ep5:
Kenny kills the people who want to kill his group.
Kenny is abusive to Arvo but remember, even if you don't rob him he'll rob you. And he gives Clementine the death stare.
Kenny gets a truck working for EVERYONE even the people he hates.
Kenny let's Jane (who he hates) come along with him, Clem, and the baby.
After the truck crashes, Kenny asks the person he hates if she's alright.
Kenny kills the girl who he though killed a fucking baby.
Kenny takes Clementine and the baby to a safe village.
Kenny will leave the only people he cares about if it means they're safe.
Kenny in s3 ep1:
Kenny teaches Clementine how to drive in case Kenny can't.
Kenny puts Aj's blanket on after it falls to the floor. Which leads to his death. He dies putting a baby's blanket on.
Kenny doesn't tell Clementine to save him. Instead he tells her to run.
Kenny in s3 ep4:
Kenny gets firewood for 2 kids to stay warm.
Kenny helps Clementine light the fire.
Kenny tells Clementine she is a good mom.
As you can see all the good shit he did, he is not fucking abusive. Let's look at Jane shall we?
Jane in s2 ep3:
Jane tells everyone about putting on walker guts.
Jane in s2 ep4:
Jane teaches Clementine a technique of killing walkers.
Jane helps save Luke, Clementine and Sarah maybe.
Jane "tries" to save Sarah again.
Jane in s2 ep5:
Jane kills a guy who is about to kill Kenny.
Jane saves Clem from freezing or drowning.
Jane takes Clementine to a giant building that is safe maybe.
Jane in s3 ep1:
No
Jane in s3 ep4:
Jane gets piles of dead guys to make walkers think there are no people around.
As you can fucking see, Kenny did more shit than Jane in the episodes they were both in. Let's see all the wrongs.
Kenny in s1 ep1:
Kenny doesn't save Shawn.
Kenny in s1 ep2:
Kenny says Urban
Kenny kills Larry even though he could still be alive.
Kenny steals from people who could come back.
Kenny in s1 ep3:
Kenny drops Lee when he says he's good.
Kenny suggests letting a girl die a painful death.
Kenny drives off when Lilly isn't in the RV.
Kenny avoids Duck's bite. Risking everyone's life.
Kenny in s1 ep4:
Kenny is a dick to everyone.
Kenny drinks alcohol instead of watching a little girl.
Kenny wants to fucking kill Ben.
Kenny won't save a little girl because of 1 disagreement.
Kenny in s1 ep5:
Kenny makes the pregnant girl cut off someone's arm.
Kenny makes Clementine's favourite toy fall in a hole with walkers.
Kenny in s2 ep2:
Kenny Points a gun at people because they showed up.
Kenny only stops shooting people when it's his wife or a little girl.
Kenny in s2 ep3:
Kenny is a dick.
Kenny fucking bashes someone's skull in after they're dead.
Kenny yells at a little girl.
Kenny in s2 ep4:
Kenny yells at a little girl and blames the little girl for his wife's death.
Kenny overkills a walker.
Kenny in s2 ep5:
Is a dick to Arvo.
Is a dick.
Kills someone in front of a little girl.
Kenny in s3 ep1:
No
Kenny in s3 ep4:
No
Kenny did a lot of bad shit, but he was in the game longer. The episodes with Jane and Kenny make Jane do more bad shit than Kenny.
Jane in s2 ep3:
Jane is a bitch.
Jane shoots a guys dick off after she convinces him to be good.
Jane doesn't wait for anyone.
Jane doesn't help anyone.
Jane in s2 ep 4:
Jane gets mad at a little girl for no reason.
Jane doesn't care if Sarah dies in the trailer.
Jane barely fucking tries to save Sarah.
Jane has sex instead of watching for people.
Jane robs a Russian kid.
Jane fucking abandons the group for no reason.
Jane in s2 ep5:
Jane waits until the end of the gun fight to help.
Jane gives a little girl alcohol.
Jane doesn't help Luke or Bonnie, only Clementine.
Jane is a bitch to Kenny for no reason.
Jane leaves a kid in a blanket, in a car. Baby could over-heat.
Jane makes Kenny go fucking insane.
Jane fights someone in front of a little girl.
Jane makes a little girl shoot her father figure.
Jane expects you to go with her after everything she does.
If you go with her, she doesn't even consider letting the family in.
Jane in s3 ep1:
Jane fucking brands a little girl with another kid's name.
Jane kills herself when she's taking care of a baby and a little girl and is pregnant with a baby.
Jane in s3 ep4:
Jane doesn't at all fucking help Clementine. In fact she says Clementine is better than her.
Get rid of season 1 bad stuff for Kenny, and Jane did more wrong than Kenny. I don't get why some people like Jane. Even people who hate Kenny hate Jane more than Kenny. Stop saying Kenny is abusive and Jane is a day of sunshine. Kenny had a loving kid and Wife. He had 2 other kids that weren't related either. So get your fucking facts straight.
Fised.
Funny how these are two separate things, but proceed. He was also gonna leave him behind, presumably to either starve or be killed some other way.
To be** completely** fair here, that's not fair to anyone. Though considering this is Jane we're talking about and ANF would somehow do it +3x worse, I don't think it really matters too much.
Oh, she cares...that Clementine is trying to save her instead of listening to Jane.
Holy shit, did I skim this so fast that I misinterpreted what it said for a second!
...Seriously?
I mean, sure, she only left sister to a presumably horrible fate with malicious last words and was fantastically racist to the point of blatantly endangering the lives of those far less fortunate than her, but giving Clementine a tattoo?
THAT's going too far!
Nope.
He doesn't apologize in this playthrough (or others) and so far, in all of the playthroughs that I've seen of that scene, the only way he apologizes is if you stay completely silent throughout the whole conversation.
And he wasn't providing the full set of information because he didn't have/know the information which is my point as to why i said that it can't be manipulation if someone does not know or have the reasons for a motive to use to manipulate someone. None of what he did was cold or callous anyway and the positives mentioned were genuine and things he had been saying ever since then baby was born.
Yep seems that way, just wanted to share anyway
Not gonna spend too long on this, as I'm already a wee bit ratty and I don't want to go off the deep end, but on the other hand I'm mildly peeved that the crux of my argument has been ignored in favor of saying "But he didn't mean it because his girlfriend was dying/dead!" So, I mean, while it's a nice diagram, your premise relies on you having to ignore a fact about abuse in favor of leaning on conjecture. But, okay, let's just say it again.
Abuse.
Does.
Not.
Have.
To.
Be.
Intended.
I said it in my post, and I'm waiting for the counter to it. There isn't one, it's a fact. The fact he was going through a bad time doesn't excuse the fact he acted the way he acted. You don't have to mean it when you yell at someone, or shove them, you can just be acting involuntarily and out of anger, depression, or whatever else. But he still did it. Let me just break it down:
Person A does an abusive action, on multiple occasions.
Abusive actions are abusive.
Therefore, Person A is abusive.
Now, let's try that with the added premise you've tried to slip in:
Person B has lost his girlfriend.
Person B does an abusive action, on multiple occasions.
Abusive actions are abusive.
Therefore, Person B is abusive.
In the nicest way possible, the 'five stages of grief' do not change anything about my argument, and I don't really see why it's worth noting when it doesn't add anything to counter the fact that abuse does not require intent. I literally said it in my post, before talking about the cycle of abuse, so - again, in the nicest way possible - your argument doesn't really do much of anything to counter it, unless you can get around the fact that:
It's a fundamental fact, like an unmarried man is a bachelor. You don't have to mean to abuse someone. But, okay, even if we accept 'okay, it was just Sarita dying/being bitten', how about before she was bitten? I laid out the fact it's implied he's at the least aggressive to her at points, and there's also the fact that he yells at Clementine in the truck to Howe's, pretty much whatever option you pick, when you're in the back of the van and he can yell such wonderful things as:
"Hey! Are you listen' to me? What's the matter with you?!"
To a frightened eleven-year-old. And that was before Sarita got bitten. I hasten to point out that, even if you lose Alvin and Nick prior to that scene, nobody else is snapping at Clementine, only Kenny.
I'm gonna say it one more time, for posterity, because - while it's not your fault - the argument of 'ohh but they were in a bad place' really winds me up, as someone who's heard that from other people throughout my life. It changes the square root of nothing.
Abusive actions do not have to require intention. Even before Sarita's death, Kenny can yell at Clementine, and he does get physically abusive in one instance, minimum, when he's about to fight Jane. I've drawn purely logical and factual conclusions, and I haven't relied on conjecture - which, again, in the nicest way possible, you have with the sentence: he most definitely would not have lashed out at Clementine had that not been the case. I'm unlikely to reply to this, was mostly just pointing out how the pretty diagram changes nothing about my argument, whatsoever.
Sorry if that seemed a bit ratty ; _ ;
have you even finished season 2 ? i will repeat what i said before Kenny apologizes in episode 5 of season 2 not episode 4 he apologizes when you go talk to him at the power station where the scene with Luke s birthday happens so stop being in denial about it.
Finish season 2, then. Kenny apologizes in every playthrough in No Going Back.
I've finished all of the seasons. I don't think a single apology makes up for his behavior. In the world of the walking dead, Clementine can do better. There were people who never treated her that way and yes, you can forgive him but in comparison to other people that you have around you there are certainly better options. You can say whatever you want, but it's the individual player's opinion and I personally feel like just because he's apologizes, it doesn't excuse everything that's happened.
I've finished all of the seasons. I don't think a single apology makes up for his behavior. In the world of the walking dead, Clementine can do better. There were people who never treated her that way and yes, you can forgive him but in comparison to other people that you have around you there are certainly better options. You can say whatever you want, but it's the individual player's opinion and I personally feel like just because he's apologizes, it doesn't excuse everything that's happened.
I'm sorry that you feel I missed the point of your argument. I wanted to make it clear with the start of my post that Kenny's actions did constitute as abuse and I in no way condone what he did. I understand completely that no abuse is justified regardless of intent. I simply thought it'd be a good idea to note why Kenny yelled at Clementine, as the root of abuse should always be understood.
Again, sorry for upsetting you.
Did you think it said she fucking had sex with a Russian kid?
I fall in love with Kenny when he got mad cause of his lines
Agreed. I definitely appreciate the remorse and "strength" to admit he was wrong, but there are indeed better options.
Pretty much. Well either that or that kid is Spanish, with the Russian either playing voyeur or joining.
For those who say Kenny was abusive, and who use the latter parts of S1 and S2 as evidence for their arguments, you have to remember that Kenny had on both occasions gone through serious trauma, that of losing people he cared about.
Both times, he literally had just lost his family, or people that he considered family. And following events were shown to all of happened within a couple of days of those loses. So for him to be irrational, even wreckless is understandable.
Such trauma changes a person. Look at how many times Rick has acted in either an irrational manner, due to loss, or paranoia due to being in a state of constant danger.
Yet it's interesting that people for the most part will still defend Rick after all of that, yet when it comes to Kenny, people who are fans of both the tv and game series are less forgiving.