I think they would mostly find it helpful to keep discussions related to TWD and Telltale characters, but Alyssa is free to comment if I am wrong on that.
Two similar kinda characters but:
Ben – A chicken-wuss who became more of a chicken-wuss as the situations got more shitty, that he made … moresome really really bad calls, such as the bandit incident that resulted in deaths and the group being on the road. He showed acts of cowardice, even ditching poor Clem to the walkers, yet through every screw up, Ben kept trying to be more useful, only to fall into the mindset the group would be better off with him.
Instead of being more of a chicken-wuss at the bell tower incident, he can end up wanting to prove himself to follow in the rescue attempt for Clementine after Lee's motivational ‘she looks up to you boy, now grow a pair!’ speech. Following on from that, Ben finally standing up to Kenny after dealing with so much crap from him was a turning point in Ben’s character in gaining himself that bit of a backbone…you know, before the walkers ate it.
Nick – He got drunk and wanted give up and die… [view original content]
I think he was also a bit tough to relate to along with being a bit bland without character depth. You have men like Rick Grimes, Kenny (whatever last name) and Lee Everett and they feel like organic humans like an every man type of person. How many people have pro ⚾ baseball players in their family? Or any pro athletes? Javier is sort of ok in his own right but not as a player character I think, and can't ever dare to compare to Lee to me. ,( Yes that last line rhymes so don't call Rick Grimes because I've done no crimes.)
likable doesn't necessarily mean he was developed and had an ideal amount of depth. he was incredibly bland and underdeveloped. also, how exactly is clem likable in anf? she was horrible for many players that previously enjoyed her character.
...as for my own actual comments on the topic, I think the story works better in the favor of memorable character development when you focus on having narrative pacing that allows the player to get to breathe and know the character. (Longer episodes and/or hub areas can also help on this as I touched upon in old posts...)
Some of my favorite character arcs from Season 1 were seeing how Kenny and Ben transformed. Earlier episodes see Bee as a liability, but in Episode 105, he comes off a lot more grounded and realistic. Likewise, Kenny also has some good moments of lucidity in terms of acknowledging how harsh he was to Ben.
I'm probably cheating by using such a generic answer, but the character development in Lee's death scene was also really well written, as Lee not only redeemed himself but also helped Clem walk through the coping process.
Season 1 seemed to focus on wanting to be it's own take of the series focused on concepts like vulnerability, morality, and redemption, whereas I feel that Season 2, Michonne, and A New Frontier seemed to focus more on group politics that were more over the top and not as grounded/realistic. In going in this direction, it kind of feels more like a caricature of the comics/TV show than it does an original take on the series such as what Season 1 was. As opposed to "action movie" type plots such as the Carver storyline in Season 2, the Randall/Norma storyline in Michonne, or the New Frontier group storyline in ANF, you will probably find that making more grounded stories like in Season 1 or 400 Days that focus on realistic and grounded stakes allows for better character development and more opportunities for humanization.
Similarly, I feel that Season 2 and A New Frontier have a habit of over playing Clem's hardened pragmatism and hyper-competency. Players related to Lee and Clementine in Season 1 because they were vulnerable and authentic, but the character transformation of Clem going into Season 2/ANF focused a little more on making her a "badass" at the cost of her timid vulnerability that players enjoyed in Season 1. Of course, being so far into the apocalypse will harden people and force them to make pragmatic choices, but I feel it sometimes comes off a bit over done in Clem's character development into Season 2/ANF. I find that players prefer Clem when she is more grounded and lighthearted.
If future games focus on Clem, players would probably want to see a more inquisitive and vulnerable Clem like in Season 1 instead of a hyper-competent walker-killing machine.
Similarly, rewarding players for long time connections with characters instead of killing them off like you did with Kenny and Jane will probably help to restore some good will with players. I feel that later Seasons after Season 1 kind of lost touch with the subtleties of what made the death scenes so poignant and long-lasting.
Deaths in Season 1 were effective because the pacing of the series was slower and it allowed the player to breathe and know the characters, helped by having hub areas/lengthier episodes. If you allow the player to breathe, it strongly helps in the favor of more engaging character development. Likewise, it helps to have reasons for killing characters that don't amount to just shock value (Omid in Ep 201) or contrivances to write a character out of the story (Kenny/Jane/Edith in ANF Ep 1).
Similarly, having a purpose to the death scenes that fulfills the conclusion of a character arc also really helps making death scenes engaging (again, going back to Ben from Season 1 as an example). I found some death scenes such as Nick/Sarita from 204 or Ava in ANF Ep 5 may have not fulfilled as much of a narrative character arc as much as death scenes from Season 1 did
Shock value works okay in small doses, but using it haphazardly to kill off characters only for shock value eventually makes players numb and the high will soon wear off.
Lee and Clementine - They're protagonists so their development is party dependent on the player.
Kenny - Mostly in Season One where he changes after losing his family - Season Two Kenny was just anger with a mustache.
Lilly - Going from a pretty stable and strong individual to someone who becomes weaker as everyone around her dislikes her.
Ben - At first he was just a gullible screw-up but began to show his galls if you gave him the chance.
Christa - She always had the personality type of a survivor but after the early events of Season Two she began to seem cold-hearted and lifeless but still cared for Clementine.
Jane - She starts off being a rather cynical and lone survivor archetype but throughout episodes 4 and 5 she feels conflicted about her own mindset - obviously ruined by A New Frontier.
Nick and Sarah could've also had good character development if they weren't just cheesed out.
Have characters stick around. I don't want people to die one episode after getting to know them. A few more characters surviving to the end would be nice.
Have us talk to them. I want to be able to spend time asking them questions, asking them about what they're like.
Have them have presence. I want to hear their opinions on certain things and I want them to be different, to offer us their point of view and so on.
Having most of them determinant or alive so that they have the potential to carry on their arc/story in future seasons.
Being able to talk to them about their past, opinions and likes/dislikes.
Visiting a character's pre-apocalypse home post-apocalypse.
Player's choices determining how that character views them and if they end up being hostile towards them or friendly in the end.
Optional scenes activated from hubs where we can talk to the character and go on a supply run or some sort of walk in the woods or some crap so we can find out more about them and how much they are willing to put their life on the line for the pc.
Finally, sad death scenes and a satisfying end to that character's story. This means that this character was developed well, or the scene in general was done perfectly. Gabe's death scene for example nearly had me crying, even though I didn't get that ending, and I wasn't the biggest fan of Gabe, but I didn't hate him.
A great advantage S1's cast had over every following cast was their development from strangers to a functional unit. S1's biggest draw was in how the supporting cast were so involved. They were a team ( with infighting , pressure , and in spite of some deeply rooted hatreds and disagreement stuck together that really helped to ground us in just how desperate the whole situation was ). We went with Glenn, Carley, and Kenny for the group at different points. Hunted with Mark. We got to talk about other group members with him. Even with Lee being the center of S1, we didn't constantly work alone. ( We even partner with Duck. )
S2 drifted away a lot from this structure. Even when Clementine was around others, she seemed alone as frequently as all the action fell to her. People start to feel more like step ladders with lines to boost Clementine to the next section. The best moments were ones that returned even a little of a group atmosphere - like choosing which table to sit at and who Clementine got to bond with. S2 and ANF both needed more sections of counting on someone and someone counting on you.
Kenny's character was written perfect. He showed that how the choices you made could affect the story(he can be a dick or your brother from another mother). Besides, he was a protective family man. He cared about the members of the motor inn(even determinantly he was a dick to Lee and Lilly). His actions showed how story is tailored by how we play. His development was so successfull. Also, writers wrote perfectly how the affection got him when he lost all of his loved ones despite Clem and AJ. Kenny was one of the most successfull developments in the game.
Javier was successfull as well. He was a funny dude who can manage to charm his way out most of the times and he had a smart mouth which makes him more interesting and a good charmer. Despite most of the weaknesses in writing this season, Javier's change in years portrayed good in my opinion. They showed how he was selfish and only cares about his career then he turned into a brilliant family man who managed to protect a woman and 2 kid for 4 years. His lines were also make him more likeable and I want to see more characters like him which has an ability to lighten the mood in these dark days.
Is development not their backstory, how their character is portrayed and what they do? And I wouldn't exactly say nobody wants another javie… morer because I do and more people on this thread say they would be tolerable of having him reappear than people who don't want him so please stop trying to troll and stop judging my opinion.
"javier is a well developed character"
javier: his motive throughout the entire season is to protect his family because he cares about the… morem immensely.
javier: entire family dies in richmond
also javier: let's have kids lol. oh also three days later im perfectly fine, even flirting with jesus
javier: gabe and marianna die
also javier: let's bring more kids into this world lol
javier: caused the downfall of richmond, family dies in richmond
also javier: stays/leads richmond
Without doubt the main character of the first 2 seasons. How he started off as a guy on the farm that no one paid much attention to, to deve… moreloping into the biggest, badass character in the series was amazing. As i'm sure you already know, a lot of people didn't like how he was killed in a car crash in season 3.
Lee, Clementine, Lilly and Jane were developed really well too I thought.
Javi asks Clem WHY she is RELATIVELY okay with Gabe after the Determinant SNITCHING that happened. To THAT, Clem explains that, First of All, she KNEW people who acted similar to Gabe in past Seasons; and Second of All, Clem was in Gabe's position once before. She wanted to go after HER family in Season 1, but the adults wouldn't let her. Because of THAT, Clem doesn't really BLAME Gabe for being upset.
Holy fuckin Shit, this! This is exactly the type of thing we NEEDED more of.
Agreed. And it wasn't the snitching itself, which honestly should've been used to further develop his character since some of his subtler traits played a part in that. No, that would be Clementine's meaningless presence, which replaced drama and character development with shipteasing and fluff.
I liked Gabe's arc this Season, but I kind of feel as if it got side-tracked whenever the SNITCHING happened. Other than THAT, I liked his A… morerc a lot this Season. My only other critique here is that I feel as though he should've lived Non-Determinantly, but that's just ME.
As a really brief, but - in my opinion - important aside:
If you're going to share a fact about a character, it needs to be shared within the games, not told by a staff member in an AMA. I honestly learned more about the cast from what you and the writers shared after the game, than what I learned in the game.
But back to my mini essay! \o/
Kind of an unexpected question I expected to be hearing - reading? - from Telltale, but ho hum! I'm just gonna blare my unpopular opinion about a certain character, try and point out why I think she had good development, and bring up some examples of this development mattering. In a nutshell, if you don't wanna read this mini essay - which is me just gibbering away - the point I try to make is that a character needs to feel like a person, which is something A New Frontier fails at doing, in my opinion.
But let's talk about a character that I, personally, really like, and think had some wonderful development!
Jane.
"This is our chance, Clem! Don't you ever want to know what it's like to live your own life?"
When we first meet Jane in the pen at Howe's Hardware, she's a person who has very little to say unless there's a point to it. Her own survival is above and beyond her highest order, to the point she took advantage of the fact that Troy was taking advantage of her to disarm and incapacitate him. She seems to have a low opinion of the group, telling the group outside of Howe's they needed to "hurry up and get to smearing if (they) want to live", or they "could die here. Doesn't bother (her)." The first point I made, her own survival being what's most important to her, is part of what makes her hanging herself so insulting.
During Amid the Ruins, an episode I adore - despite people hating it - Jane starts to warm up to the group, if only a little - particularly to Clementine and Luke. If you know what I mean, with the second of those two. We start to learn more about Jane's point of view towards the apocalypse, and - particularly - the tragedy that befell her when she lost her little sister, Jaime. (A name which was misspelled during the flashback in Ties That Bind, but that's just a nitpick, I guess.) One of my all time favourite scenes from the entire Walking Dead series is when her and Clementine are walking towards the trailer park, just talking about stuff. There weren't any shocking moments, or people getting brutally murdered, it was just two people talking, and the first seeds of a friendship being sown before our very eyes.
(Excuse the crappy video quality, my craptop is just the worst, but I had to record this bit real quick to show what I meant.)
Character development with Jane was really well done, for me, as we only know her for three episodes - and we barely get to talk to her during In Harm's Way, so it's really two episodes - and yet she leaves a definite impact on Clementine, whether she's stabbed by Kenny or hangs herself (grr) at Howe's. The best bit of Amid the Ruins, for me, and one of the reasons I keep replaying it is because we get to know Jane. We learn that she used to go to an amusement park with Virginia, and that was the only time she'd treat her little sister as a friend, we learn the kind of stuff she'd do to upset Jaime, and we get a bit of a punch in the gut - or, at least, I did - when we find out she eventually left Jaime to die.
Character development is something I really admired during the first two seasons of The Walking Dead, and even Michonne to an extent, so that's part of the reason I'm so gutted by A New Frontier. Characters weren't developed, as much as they did what the plot demanded and argued the whole way. I can't name a single interesting tidbit about Tripp, besides what I learned in an AMA. This kind of stuff, backstories, should be shared within the game. Another game which did something similarly to what the AMA did was Destiny, with it's Grimoire Cards, but that's not worth mentioning.
The thing, for me, is that every single character from the first two seasons sticks with me, and I remember them because they were - well - memorable. They had their own little quirks and ways of looking at things that made each one as interesting as the last. While I don't like all the characters, I can at least admire that they were well written and rounded people as much as characters. Within A New Frontier, each character just feels like a character. They don't feel real, to me. Tripp was - at best - dull, to me. Eleanor does a complete one-eighty, even though I saved Conrad and was nothing but nice to the whole group. Conrad just disappears off the map for episode five. Jesus was just sort of there. Clementine just felt forced in to do 'badass' stuff, yet all she did was make me sigh and imagine my own way season three could have been.
I'm not trying to be mean, so I apologise if this seems condescending, but on the other hand - you guys were the story tellers, for me. I still love The Walking Deads first two seasons more than most-any other game - I still replay an episode of season two every couple days, just because I love them so much. But with A New Frontier, I never really bonded with the characters, so when Mariana was shot in episode one, I mostly just sighed and went "that was fast." Before characters can start being murdered, in my mind, we have to care.
It'd be a bit like if the final fight in The Walking Dead: Season Two was between two people I knew nothing about, but was forced to choose whether to shoot one of them or not. It loses that impact that the choice DOES have. The ending of both season one and season two are both so, so, powerful to me, but they'd be lost if the characters had the development of A New Frontier's cast. Stuff like this:
These kinds of moments can't be replicated if the cast hasn't been developed. At the end of season two, when I went back and saved Jane, I didn't want to risk either Clementine or Jane - or AJ - getting hurt by the family. As Clementine, then, I made the choice to turn them away. If it was A New Frontier, I likely would have let the family in, the argument being "maybe this family will be more interesting than my one." Another example, I suppose, is when Conrad points the gun at Gabe's head. In real life, I would flip my shit if someone pointed a gun at my nephew's head. But, in A New Frontier, I honestly preferred Conrad to Gabe, and didn't feel like blowing the guy's brains out.
While the ending of A New Frontier was a great idea in theory - not all of your family can survive, who do you choose to help? - where it falls down is that the buildup wasn't there, for me. I honestly couldn't care less if Kate, David and Gabe died, because I wasn't given any motivation to care past "This is your family you must love them very much and protect them". The game didn't have to tell me to look after Clementine, in Season One. The way Lee and Clementine interacted made me want to. The game didn't have to tell me to be nice to characters like Luke and Jane, because I liked their characters so much that I wanted to try and get along with them.
In my opinion, forcing the player to care about people before they've even picked up the game - pre-determined relationships - is a bad move, especially if that family does much to do about nothing to make me want to like them.
Hopefully there was something in there that resembled being relevant.
Edit - As a hobbyist writer, this article was really interesting to me. It talks about how important character development is, and the mistakes that are often made in developing them. I do feel ANF suffers from these mistakes. It might be an interesting read ^^
Good Character development:
That thing you find in season one
Kenny,lilly,lee,carly,doug
Kenny this man is one of hell exampl of character that your choices toward him make you feel the development if you sided with him or not he can be a good pal to you or he can be a jerk to you.
Lilly the same as kenny one hell of a exampl of character development she can be a jerk to you and see you as a criminal or some one who believe in you as a trustful person.
Clem from a poor girl to a cold sad girl to a badass girl but for a she had some moments when she shows a weak character development in season two and ANF she had a weak character development cause the choice of the player toward her as javier felt meaningless.
Carly from a women who had a crush on doug and threatning lee about his past in ep1 season one toa women to the love intreast of lee of ep2-3 and some one who is aware about what his past might cause him problem.
Doug from a random good guy in ep1 to a brother form another mother to lee.
entire anf: protect your family!!! how far will javier go for his family????
also anf: literally javier's whole family can die, and after the three day time skip, javier seems perfectly fine. like when gabe dies, he can fucking kiss kate, flirt with jesus, cut clementine's hair and act all cheerful. it makes the least amount of sense in the gabe death ending.
entire anf: protect your family!!! how far will javier go for his family????
also anf: literally javier's whole family can die, and after t… morehe three day time skip, javier seems perfectly fine. like when gabe dies, he can fucking kiss kate, flirt with jesus, cut clementine's hair and act all cheerful. it makes the least amount of sense in the gabe death ending.
the entire motive this season was to protect your family. javier's character and story was basically him doing anything he can to shield his family from certain issues during the apocalypse. javier acting completely normal three days after any of his family members can die is not true to his character whatsoever.
I think they would mostly find it helpful to keep discussions related to TWD and Telltale characters, but Alyssa is free to comment if I am wrong on that.
I've been hoping we'd get a thread like this! I also wanted to say somethings about the freewalks but couldn't consolidate my thoughts at the time despite having numerous things to say. I'll share some of my previous posts here and try to expand on similar ideas as it comes to me.
Clementine in Season 2 was a good enough protagonist, with her unusual age and size for the general, her iconic redesign, the pre-established history with the players through her role in Season 1, and, to a lesser extent, the themes involved in connecting her to some of the new cast making her stand out amongst the crowd. However, if it wasn't for many of those things, she would be at risk of being a vanilla/pinball protagonist because for as much as people complain about her doing everything and even that she's one of the only characters they generally care about, she doesn't have much in the way of personal development throughout. She was needed more focus devoted to talking about her opinions and feelings on certain things, namely her relationships and history, as well as more emphasis on her as a character that will be developed.
Note: There was originally gonna be more entries on different characters, but I'm gonna make separate posts for the sake of brevity and not excessively overlapping my points.
Been working on this a lot longer than I intended and I can't think of anything else to say on it, so here it is"
I could talk about Kenny....
So let's talk bout Sarah! Now Sarah has been one of the my favorite characters since I finally got around to playing Season 2 last year, so I think I'm more inclined to comment on her than most. Though that’s not disregard the viewpoints of others, who apparently consider her and Nick to be among the most wasted characters of Season 2 due to being more well-developed and complex than many other characters.
So with that in mind, I know it’s safe to say that the foundation for her character was pretty dang solid, but let's just say there was step or two missing. And upon reflection, I feel like one of the things that made Sarah feel unique is the fact that she seems to be the product of many different types of development/portrayal: simple and in your face, subtle and complicated, personable, alien, etc.. While this definitely helped her further standout, I will say something that kinda cheapened the effect was the lack of an exposited backstory(most likely because of Carlos’s intended plot relevance) and especially the limited amount of downtime interaction with her in the hub areas. Like, no joke, I legit thought the game was glitched in A House Divided when you couldn’t talk to her in either of the later hubs despite her lack of mysterious backstory relevance, the events around these hubs being a perfect fit for the development she had gotten earlier in the episode, and her seemingly simple purpose in relation to Clementine. But nope, I’ve listened to a collection of her voice clips and it’s not a glitch—they just apparently didn’t think of anything much for her to say during these scenes.
I feel like these two things left the fans that really liked her feeling gypped and wanting and led to those who didn’t get into her character feeling put off and/or alienated because none of us were being offered the chance to get to know her more on our time, which can be instrumental in understanding her. And then there’s one of the character traits that both makes her standout even more from the rest of cast but also leads to quite a bit of divisiveness in her reception: her lack of presence in more action-based scenes.
Now I for one very much appreciate having more introverted characters like Doug, Alvin, and Sarah around since it keeps the cast speciated and offers more opportunities for contrasting interactions. But unfortunately for some, Sarah’s premise as a character basically provides an example of what Clementine would be like without Chuck’s influence on Lee and the support necessary to become accommodated to the post-outbreak world. This leaves her as someone who, while friendly, empathetic, and humble, is prone to becoming anxious, being overemotional/hypersensitive in her thinking, and making a few bad judgment calls in stressful situations due to her PTSD, which in conjunction with also actually being a teenager just made things much harsher on her. So a key descriptor of her character is trying to help her deal with so much shit being flung at in a relatively short sequence so that she can learn to be more of a survivor in her own right like she wanted.
But alas, one of the many, many factors that made her ultimate fate such a huge sticking point for most people is the fact that it completely neglects this aspect of her character development despite there being a fair amount of buildup to it, with the only hand wave given besides the assumption that she simply wouldn’t have had a gun to use on her is Bonnie telling her to stay out of everyone else’s way at the end of a dialogue prompt wait period. I know that technically, there were a number of catalysts to her death that was in place, but none of that excuses how that just threw away a major character for most of the Season in such an unnecessarily contrived, mean-spirited, and unfitting fashion.
So in conclusion, the steps that would’ve been necessary in improving upon her character to give her a more concentrated focus, go into deconstructing her place in the group compared to everyone else a little more, don't get too unnecessarily black and/or white with her, and, as I was recently reminded of, have her actually be available to talk to in between action sequences.
Been working on this a lot longer than I intended and I can't think of anything else to say on it, so here it is"
I could talk about Kenn… morey....
So let's talk bout Sarah! Now Sarah has been one of the my favorite characters since I finally got around to playing Season 2 last year, so I think I'm more inclined to comment on her than most. Though that’s not disregard the viewpoints of others, who apparently consider her and Nick to be among the most wasted characters of Season 2 due to being more well-developed and complex than many other characters.
So with that in mind, I know it’s safe to say that the foundation for her character was pretty dang solid, but let's just say there was step or two missing. And upon reflection, I feel like one of the things that made Sarah feel unique is the fact that she seems to be the product of many different types of development/portrayal: simple and in your face, subtle and complicated, personable, al… [view original content]
Javier in A New Frontier ran into similar issues as Season 2! Clementine, with some of them being a little worse. First off, I'd like to compliment how I much of a refreshing change of pace I find him to be compared to previous playable characters. For what it's worth, I think he's a pretty okay if not good character in his own right, being more of a fun-type of protagonist due to his charm and sense of humor lending to some occasional one-liners while also having a relatable, if universal motivation. And given that ANF was apparently striving to bring things more in line with the comics, having us play as a more gimmicky character makes perfect sense (speaking as someone who still hasn't watched the show, mind you). But the one issue he definitely has is not having much of a personal arc or motivation all of his own.
As I said, his motivation in the game's tagline--"When family is all you have left…how far will you go to protect it?"-- is a universal one shared my people and many characters, with Kenny pretty much being the poster boy of that for this game series, for better or worse. But I feel like that motivation is pretty bare bones when you realize that it's pretty much the only thing driving most interpretations of Javi; everyone else in the Garcia family(including Marianna?) shares that sentiment to an extent, but they also have some other interests and flaws that further flesh them out. What drives Javier throughout the story beyond a need to live up to the expectations of his abusive brother and later a pre-mortem promise to his old man?
While I'm somewhat pleased to say we were mostly distracted from it thanks to Above the Law being more lore and character driven than the previous episodes, one criticism I still had in mind was Javier’s status as his own character. It was near the end of the episode, when things were calming down for the oncoming storm that I realized that nearly everything Javier sees and does in the story involved things touched by David first: Kate, Gabriel and Mariana, the New Frontier, and even Clementine all fall into that category.
Now, this is actually a common trap in certain works, where it feels like the main character's destiny was decided for him and he's dealing with things brought on by his allies and predecessor's actions and for what it's worth, I think the many of the progressing choices Javier can make are firmly capable of being by his own will. However, it doesn't change the fact that who Javier is has relatively little to do with the plot, unlike with Lee, most of the 400 Days Characters, or even S2!Clementine. And while he's got more to him than the likes of Wyatt or especially Tripp, a small part of me still thinks we haven't really gotten to know Javier himself all that much.
So I think it would’ve been nice to invoke OG!Clementine, the Stranger, and Luke by having Clementine or someone else take Javier aside during a grace period and get to explain more about his past and who he thinks he is through his own lips. And with Gabe, the tritagonist of ANF, being 25% determinant as well, the question of who Javier is without his family after so many years traveling together is unfortunately laid on the table.
Here is a concise list. I’m going to skip the obvious ones like Lee, Clem and Kenny because if you don’t understand why they are prime examples of fantastic character development then you’re a lost cause.
I’m going to mention mostly season one and ANF characters to keep this short but just as a side note season 2 characters were well written. But, again if you can’t figure that out, there might not be any hope for you.
Well-made characters and why
Lilly – carries the burden of caring for Larry (who is extremely unlikeable) while trying to lead a group of survivors who constantly question her judgement, and in the end the stress finally breaks her
Larry – you hated this guy but you loved the fact that he was so obviously a minor antagonist who you had no other choice but to live and deal with, and when you finally had the option to do him in and get revenge for all the times he was a jerk to you, it became a very heavily weighted moral question
Andy from the farm – A tragic story to say the least. They were so obviously the antagonists of the episode and it didn’t take much to realize that they were cannibals but despite that Lee leaves the St Johns Dairy in ruins. Andy wasn’t evil, just misguided by his beliefs but Lee took all that away by killing part or all of his family and leaving him to die (or killed him, I think that was a choice). I really wished we had gotten to seem come back as a good guy.
Omid – the only person who still has a sense of humor in the apocalypse, someone to lighten the tone of a dark depressing story
The Stranger – you never meet him until the end where you find out that a lot of your past choices affect his story and dialogue to a certain degree
Ben – wimpy kid who always messes up as plot convince, pretty much the same as Gabe until CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT kicks in and he stands up to Kenny and promises to make things right which is what redeems him and makes him a brilliant character
Meh characters and why
Chuck – literally only existed to deliver overly dramatic lines and create suspense for the plot
Christa – not used enough, just disappears at the beginning of season 2, to me at least it seemed like you guys were building up to her appearing again at wellington in place of Edith’s character
Jesus – oh look another comic character, I guess not enough people were buying our story so lets freeload off of someone else’s story. He is only a well-established bad ass if you read the comics but in the game, he is just a deus ex machina
Marianna – only likeable character in ANF because the Javi x Mari companionship should have reminded players of the Lee x Clem relationship... but she is dead so...
Poorly written characters and why
Gabe – Ben’s character but never progresses past moronic jerk, and no the line “well he is a teen and that’s what puberty does to you” does not cut it as an excuse, mainly because no teens do not act like that especially not during the freaking end of the world when your life is on the line every other day, and no, only a moron who does not understand biology and who says “hormones and stuff” when they hear the word puberty, would been that teens behave, I would know, I go to school with them, they are just like adults but less experienced and slightly more clueless, try talking to a teen for once rather than assuming their behavior
Kate – I liked Kate’s character until she went all flip floppy and a day after saying we have to get out of this place to we have to stay and help, and yes, your games are bout choice but there is no logical reason to abandon your brother and steal his wife (while he is still in your group mind you) and try to save a town of murderous lunatics who have only shown themselves to be entirely hypocritical psychos “hey lets shoot an unarmed little girl (Mari) who is standing in the middle of a bunch of heavily armed adults” “lets drive up to their settlement (presscott) and make demands while they have the high ground and a wall, and therefore have a tactical advantage over us” “lets drive a bunch of slow moving not so dangerous walkers into the middle of that town, its not as if we already have a hard enough time dealing with the FUCKING ZOMBIE APOCOLAPSE” “Hey look the people who attacked us before have come right to the gates of Richmond and are demanding help… lets not shoot them and take their stuff”
Ok im done now, I digressed away from the question
Gabe – Ben’s character but never progresses past moronic jerk
Pretty sure he stopped doing that by the climax of Thicker than Water. Maybe even sooner depending on your choice.
And for the umpteenth time, use Nick instead of Ben for a comparison.
Here is a concise list. I’m going to skip the obvious ones like Lee, Clem and Kenny because if you don’t understand why they are prime examp… moreles of fantastic character development then you’re a lost cause.
I’m going to mention mostly season one and ANF characters to keep this short but just as a side note season 2 characters were well written. But, again if you can’t figure that out, there might not be any hope for you.
Well-made characters and why
Lilly – carries the burden of caring for Larry (who is extremely unlikeable) while trying to lead a group of survivors who constantly question her judgement, and in the end the stress finally breaks her
Larry – you hated this guy but you loved the fact that he was so obviously a minor antagonist who you had no other choice but to live and deal with, and when you finally had the option to do him in and get revenge for all the times he was a jerk to you, it became a very heavily weighted m… [view original content]
Oh.... Hearing that line from Lee saying how killing things can change you and that you shouldn't get used to it... really makes me think about how much it has changed her. Damn. "It'll consume you." Those words chilled me to the bone.
As a really brief, but - in my opinion - important aside:
If you're going to share a fact about a character, it needs to be shared within… more the games, not told by a staff member in an AMA. I honestly learned more about the cast from what you and the writers shared after the game, than what I learned in the game.
But back to my mini essay! \o/
Kind of an unexpected question I expected to be hearing - reading? - from Telltale, but ho hum! I'm just gonna blare my unpopular opinion about a certain character, try and point out why I think she had good development, and bring up some examples of this development mattering. In a nutshell, if you don't wanna read this mini essay - which is me just gibbering away - the point I try to make is that a character needs to feel like a person, which is something A New Frontier fails at doing, in my opinion.
But let's talk about a character that I, personally, really like, and think had some wonderfu… [view original content]
You guys did pretty good with most of the character arcs in TWD Season 1 and Game of Thrones. Some of them failed hard but others were done really well. Lee, Doug, Lilly, Asher, Mira, etc. But characters like Kenny, or characters from the entire Season Two case (ESPECIALLY Jane and Luke), Ethan Forrester, etc. These characters are poor, they're badly written, they need improvement, and they all go NOWHERE. It's hard to recapture the writing of great characters, I know, but if you can't do that, maybe settle for Bigby Wolf and Javier Garcia. While not amazing characters they had very satisfying character arcs that all went surprisingly well.
Ben in Kenny in season 1 had the most character devolpment. Kenny went from a helping hand, to agreeing with mostly everyone in the group. He then turns into an asshole. He then redeems himself later in the most heroic way if you didn't drop Ben. Ben was shy and nervous, just a sidcharacter. But he then turned into the character we all hate, he also caused Kenny's character change in episode 3. Ben was a little shitbird but he redeems himself by telling Lee to drop him. He then stands up to Kenny, making Kenny change again. So basically, shitbird caused Kenny's changes in his character.
Without doubt the main character of the first 2 seasons. How he started off as a guy on the farm that no one paid much attention to, to deve… moreloping into the biggest, badass character in the series was amazing. As i'm sure you already know, a lot of people didn't like how he was killed in a car crash in season 3.
Lee, Clementine, Lilly and Jane were developed really well too I thought.
Booooo Sarah sucks....killed Nick....Booooooo....got what she deserved...only not as painful!!! Boooooo!!
That is how quite a few posts went on about Sarah. As Dabbydoo states in his Sarah post above, Sarah deserved better as a character....and once again I will lay the blame at the over use of Kenny in S2. The building blocks to several great characters were there...but for whatever reason...Telltale reverted back to using Kenny as if he never had his character arc in S1....it is like...yeah we know he learned a lesson or two by the end of season1...but hell we need conflict...so lets supersize him in S2.
Been working on this a lot longer than I intended and I can't think of anything else to say on it, so here it is"
I could talk about Kenn… morey....
So let's talk bout Sarah! Now Sarah has been one of the my favorite characters since I finally got around to playing Season 2 last year, so I think I'm more inclined to comment on her than most. Though that’s not disregard the viewpoints of others, who apparently consider her and Nick to be among the most wasted characters of Season 2 due to being more well-developed and complex than many other characters.
So with that in mind, I know it’s safe to say that the foundation for her character was pretty dang solid, but let's just say there was step or two missing. And upon reflection, I feel like one of the things that made Sarah feel unique is the fact that she seems to be the product of many different types of development/portrayal: simple and in your face, subtle and complicated, personable, al… [view original content]
Comments
I think they would mostly find it helpful to keep discussions related to TWD and Telltale characters, but Alyssa is free to comment if I am wrong on that.
Just a friendly reminder, please keep comments and feedback constructive and try to avoid snarky comments aimed in the direction of other users.
I think he was also a bit tough to relate to along with being a bit bland without character depth. You have men like Rick Grimes, Kenny (whatever last name) and Lee Everett and they feel like organic humans like an every man type of person. How many people have pro ⚾ baseball players in their family? Or any pro athletes? Javier is sort of ok in his own right but not as a player character I think, and can't ever dare to compare to Lee to me. ,( Yes that last line rhymes so don't call Rick Grimes because I've done no crimes.)
Yeah I'm done....
...as for my own actual comments on the topic, I think the story works better in the favor of memorable character development when you focus on having narrative pacing that allows the player to get to breathe and know the character. (Longer episodes and/or hub areas can also help on this as I touched upon in old posts...)
Some of my favorite character arcs from Season 1 were seeing how Kenny and Ben transformed. Earlier episodes see Bee as a liability, but in Episode 105, he comes off a lot more grounded and realistic. Likewise, Kenny also has some good moments of lucidity in terms of acknowledging how harsh he was to Ben.
I'm probably cheating by using such a generic answer, but the character development in Lee's death scene was also really well written, as Lee not only redeemed himself but also helped Clem walk through the coping process.
Season 1 seemed to focus on wanting to be it's own take of the series focused on concepts like vulnerability, morality, and redemption, whereas I feel that Season 2, Michonne, and A New Frontier seemed to focus more on group politics that were more over the top and not as grounded/realistic. In going in this direction, it kind of feels more like a caricature of the comics/TV show than it does an original take on the series such as what Season 1 was. As opposed to "action movie" type plots such as the Carver storyline in Season 2, the Randall/Norma storyline in Michonne, or the New Frontier group storyline in ANF, you will probably find that making more grounded stories like in Season 1 or 400 Days that focus on realistic and grounded stakes allows for better character development and more opportunities for humanization.
Similarly, I feel that Season 2 and A New Frontier have a habit of over playing Clem's hardened pragmatism and hyper-competency. Players related to Lee and Clementine in Season 1 because they were vulnerable and authentic, but the character transformation of Clem going into Season 2/ANF focused a little more on making her a "badass" at the cost of her timid vulnerability that players enjoyed in Season 1. Of course, being so far into the apocalypse will harden people and force them to make pragmatic choices, but I feel it sometimes comes off a bit over done in Clem's character development into Season 2/ANF. I find that players prefer Clem when she is more grounded and lighthearted.
If future games focus on Clem, players would probably want to see a more inquisitive and vulnerable Clem like in Season 1 instead of a hyper-competent walker-killing machine.
Similarly, rewarding players for long time connections with characters instead of killing them off like you did with Kenny and Jane will probably help to restore some good will with players. I feel that later Seasons after Season 1 kind of lost touch with the subtleties of what made the death scenes so poignant and long-lasting.
Deaths in Season 1 were effective because the pacing of the series was slower and it allowed the player to breathe and know the characters, helped by having hub areas/lengthier episodes. If you allow the player to breathe, it strongly helps in the favor of more engaging character development. Likewise, it helps to have reasons for killing characters that don't amount to just shock value (Omid in Ep 201) or contrivances to write a character out of the story (Kenny/Jane/Edith in ANF Ep 1).
Similarly, having a purpose to the death scenes that fulfills the conclusion of a character arc also really helps making death scenes engaging (again, going back to Ben from Season 1 as an example). I found some death scenes such as Nick/Sarita from 204 or Ava in ANF Ep 5 may have not fulfilled as much of a narrative character arc as much as death scenes from Season 1 did
Shock value works okay in small doses, but using it haphazardly to kill off characters only for shock value eventually makes players numb and the high will soon wear off.
Lee and Clementine - They're protagonists so their development is party dependent on the player.
Kenny - Mostly in Season One where he changes after losing his family - Season Two Kenny was just anger with a mustache.
Lilly - Going from a pretty stable and strong individual to someone who becomes weaker as everyone around her dislikes her.
Ben - At first he was just a gullible screw-up but began to show his galls if you gave him the chance.
Christa - She always had the personality type of a survivor but after the early events of Season Two she began to seem cold-hearted and lifeless but still cared for Clementine.
Jane - She starts off being a rather cynical and lone survivor archetype but throughout episodes 4 and 5 she feels conflicted about her own mindset - obviously ruined by A New Frontier.
Nick and Sarah could've also had good character development if they weren't just cheesed out.
Successful character development?
The best character development imo is:
A great advantage S1's cast had over every following cast was their development from strangers to a functional unit. S1's biggest draw was in how the supporting cast were so involved. They were a team ( with infighting , pressure , and in spite of some deeply rooted hatreds and disagreement stuck together that really helped to ground us in just how desperate the whole situation was ). We went with Glenn, Carley, and Kenny for the group at different points. Hunted with Mark. We got to talk about other group members with him. Even with Lee being the center of S1, we didn't constantly work alone. ( We even partner with Duck. )
S2 drifted away a lot from this structure. Even when Clementine was around others, she seemed alone as frequently as all the action fell to her. People start to feel more like step ladders with lines to boost Clementine to the next section. The best moments were ones that returned even a little of a group atmosphere - like choosing which table to sit at and who Clementine got to bond with. S2 and ANF both needed more sections of counting on someone and someone counting on you.
Kenny's character was written perfect. He showed that how the choices you made could affect the story(he can be a dick or your brother from another mother). Besides, he was a protective family man. He cared about the members of the motor inn(even determinantly he was a dick to Lee and Lilly). His actions showed how story is tailored by how we play. His development was so successfull. Also, writers wrote perfectly how the affection got him when he lost all of his loved ones despite Clem and AJ. Kenny was one of the most successfull developments in the game.
Javier was successfull as well. He was a funny dude who can manage to charm his way out most of the times and he had a smart mouth which makes him more interesting and a good charmer. Despite most of the weaknesses in writing this season, Javier's change in years portrayed good in my opinion. They showed how he was selfish and only cares about his career then he turned into a brilliant family man who managed to protect a woman and 2 kid for 4 years. His lines were also make him more likeable and I want to see more characters like him which has an ability to lighten the mood in these dark days.
This is a question I've asked in the past and may ask again somewhere.
Yeah, killing off Gabe really was a big no no for that amongst other reasons.
In fact, he's such a badass that you didn't even name him.
Holy fuckin Shit, this! This is exactly the type of thing we NEEDED more of.
Agreed. And it wasn't the snitching itself, which honestly should've been used to further develop his character since some of his subtler traits played a part in that. No, that would be Clementine's meaningless presence, which replaced drama and character development with shipteasing and fluff.
He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named due to his gloriousness!
I assume you've also gotten into miniature arguments about character development in the past?
As a really brief, but - in my opinion - important aside:
If you're going to share a fact about a character, it needs to be shared within the games, not told by a staff member in an AMA. I honestly learned more about the cast from what you and the writers shared after the game, than what I learned in the game.
But back to my mini essay! \o/
Kind of an unexpected question I expected to be hearing - reading? - from Telltale, but ho hum! I'm just gonna blare my unpopular opinion about a certain character, try and point out why I think she had good development, and bring up some examples of this development mattering. In a nutshell, if you don't wanna read this mini essay - which is me just gibbering away - the point I try to make is that a character needs to feel like a person, which is something A New Frontier fails at doing, in my opinion.
But let's talk about a character that I, personally, really like, and think had some wonderful development!
Jane.
"This is our chance, Clem! Don't you ever want to know what it's like to live your own life?"
When we first meet Jane in the pen at Howe's Hardware, she's a person who has very little to say unless there's a point to it. Her own survival is above and beyond her highest order, to the point she took advantage of the fact that Troy was taking advantage of her to disarm and incapacitate him. She seems to have a low opinion of the group, telling the group outside of Howe's they needed to "hurry up and get to smearing if (they) want to live", or they "could die here. Doesn't bother (her)." The first point I made, her own survival being what's most important to her, is part of what makes her hanging herself so insulting.
During Amid the Ruins, an episode I adore - despite people hating it - Jane starts to warm up to the group, if only a little - particularly to Clementine and Luke. If you know what I mean, with the second of those two. We start to learn more about Jane's point of view towards the apocalypse, and - particularly - the tragedy that befell her when she lost her little sister, Jaime. (A name which was misspelled during the flashback in Ties That Bind, but that's just a nitpick, I guess.) One of my all time favourite scenes from the entire Walking Dead series is when her and Clementine are walking towards the trailer park, just talking about stuff. There weren't any shocking moments, or people getting brutally murdered, it was just two people talking, and the first seeds of a friendship being sown before our very eyes.
(Excuse the crappy video quality, my craptop is just the worst, but I had to record this bit real quick to show what I meant.)
Character development with Jane was really well done, for me, as we only know her for three episodes - and we barely get to talk to her during In Harm's Way, so it's really two episodes - and yet she leaves a definite impact on Clementine, whether she's stabbed by Kenny or hangs herself (grr) at Howe's. The best bit of Amid the Ruins, for me, and one of the reasons I keep replaying it is because we get to know Jane. We learn that she used to go to an amusement park with Virginia, and that was the only time she'd treat her little sister as a friend, we learn the kind of stuff she'd do to upset Jaime, and we get a bit of a punch in the gut - or, at least, I did - when we find out she eventually left Jaime to die.
Character development is something I really admired during the first two seasons of The Walking Dead, and even Michonne to an extent, so that's part of the reason I'm so gutted by A New Frontier. Characters weren't developed, as much as they did what the plot demanded and argued the whole way. I can't name a single interesting tidbit about Tripp, besides what I learned in an AMA. This kind of stuff, backstories, should be shared within the game. Another game which did something similarly to what the AMA did was Destiny, with it's Grimoire Cards, but that's not worth mentioning.
The thing, for me, is that every single character from the first two seasons sticks with me, and I remember them because they were - well - memorable. They had their own little quirks and ways of looking at things that made each one as interesting as the last. While I don't like all the characters, I can at least admire that they were well written and rounded people as much as characters. Within A New Frontier, each character just feels like a character. They don't feel real, to me. Tripp was - at best - dull, to me. Eleanor does a complete one-eighty, even though I saved Conrad and was nothing but nice to the whole group. Conrad just disappears off the map for episode five. Jesus was just sort of there. Clementine just felt forced in to do 'badass' stuff, yet all she did was make me sigh and imagine my own way season three could have been.
I'm not trying to be mean, so I apologise if this seems condescending, but on the other hand - you guys were the story tellers, for me. I still love The Walking Deads first two seasons more than most-any other game - I still replay an episode of season two every couple days, just because I love them so much. But with A New Frontier, I never really bonded with the characters, so when Mariana was shot in episode one, I mostly just sighed and went "that was fast." Before characters can start being murdered, in my mind, we have to care.
It'd be a bit like if the final fight in The Walking Dead: Season Two was between two people I knew nothing about, but was forced to choose whether to shoot one of them or not. It loses that impact that the choice DOES have. The ending of both season one and season two are both so, so, powerful to me, but they'd be lost if the characters had the development of A New Frontier's cast. Stuff like this:
These kinds of moments can't be replicated if the cast hasn't been developed. At the end of season two, when I went back and saved Jane, I didn't want to risk either Clementine or Jane - or AJ - getting hurt by the family. As Clementine, then, I made the choice to turn them away. If it was A New Frontier, I likely would have let the family in, the argument being "maybe this family will be more interesting than my one." Another example, I suppose, is when Conrad points the gun at Gabe's head. In real life, I would flip my shit if someone pointed a gun at my nephew's head. But, in A New Frontier, I honestly preferred Conrad to Gabe, and didn't feel like blowing the guy's brains out.
While the ending of A New Frontier was a great idea in theory - not all of your family can survive, who do you choose to help? - where it falls down is that the buildup wasn't there, for me. I honestly couldn't care less if Kate, David and Gabe died, because I wasn't given any motivation to care past "This is your family you must love them very much and protect them". The game didn't have to tell me to look after Clementine, in Season One. The way Lee and Clementine interacted made me want to. The game didn't have to tell me to be nice to characters like Luke and Jane, because I liked their characters so much that I wanted to try and get along with them.
In my opinion, forcing the player to care about people before they've even picked up the game - pre-determined relationships - is a bad move, especially if that family does much to do about nothing to make me want to like them.
Hopefully there was something in there that resembled being relevant.
Edit - As a hobbyist writer, this article was really interesting to me. It talks about how important character development is, and the mistakes that are often made in developing them. I do feel ANF suffers from these mistakes. It might be an interesting read ^^
Good Character development:
That thing you find in season one
Kenny,lilly,lee,carly,doug
Kenny this man is one of hell exampl of character that your choices toward him make you feel the development if you sided with him or not he can be a good pal to you or he can be a jerk to you.
Lilly the same as kenny one hell of a exampl of character development she can be a jerk to you and see you as a criminal or some one who believe in you as a trustful person.
Clem from a poor girl to a cold sad girl to a badass girl but for a she had some moments when she shows a weak character development in season two and ANF she had a weak character development cause the choice of the player toward her as javier felt meaningless.
Carly from a women who had a crush on doug and threatning lee about his past in ep1 season one toa women to the love intreast of lee of ep2-3 and some one who is aware about what his past might cause him problem.
Doug from a random good guy in ep1 to a brother form another mother to lee.
entire anf: protect your family!!! how far will javier go for his family????
also anf: literally javier's whole family can die, and after the three day time skip, javier seems perfectly fine. like when gabe dies, he can fucking kiss kate, flirt with jesus, cut clementine's hair and act all cheerful. it makes the least amount of sense in the gabe death ending.
Maybe because it was 3 days ago and it's the zombie apocalypse? When a member of my family dies Inget over it in about an hour.
the entire motive this season was to protect your family. javier's character and story was basically him doing anything he can to shield his family from certain issues during the apocalypse. javier acting completely normal three days after any of his family members can die is not true to his character whatsoever.
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It's bound to have happened, yes. I just don't immediately recall one.
Nearly the opposite with me. I just can't recall mine because I've had too many
I've been hoping we'd get a thread like this! I also wanted to say somethings about the freewalks but couldn't consolidate my thoughts at the time despite having numerous things to say. I'll share some of my previous posts here and try to expand on similar ideas as it comes to me.
Clementine in Season 2 was a good enough protagonist, with her unusual age and size for the general, her iconic redesign, the pre-established history with the players through her role in Season 1, and, to a lesser extent, the themes involved in connecting her to some of the new cast making her stand out amongst the crowd. However, if it wasn't for many of those things, she would be at risk of being a vanilla/pinball protagonist because for as much as people complain about her doing everything and even that she's one of the only characters they generally care about, she doesn't have much in the way of personal development throughout. She was needed more focus devoted to talking about her opinions and feelings on certain things, namely her relationships and history, as well as more emphasis on her as a character that will be developed.
Note: There was originally gonna be more entries on different characters, but I'm gonna make separate posts for the sake of brevity and not excessively overlapping my points.
That long post about Jane was a good example of an animal's character development
Been working on this a lot longer than I intended and I can't think of anything else to say on it, so here it is"
I could talk about Kenny....
So let's talk bout Sarah! Now Sarah has been one of the my favorite characters since I finally got around to playing Season 2 last year, so I think I'm more inclined to comment on her than most. Though that’s not disregard the viewpoints of others, who apparently consider her and Nick to be among the most wasted characters of Season 2 due to being more well-developed and complex than many other characters.
So with that in mind, I know it’s safe to say that the foundation for her character was pretty dang solid, but let's just say there was step or two missing. And upon reflection, I feel like one of the things that made Sarah feel unique is the fact that she seems to be the product of many different types of development/portrayal: simple and in your face, subtle and complicated, personable, alien, etc.. While this definitely helped her further standout, I will say something that kinda cheapened the effect was the lack of an exposited backstory(most likely because of Carlos’s intended plot relevance) and especially the limited amount of downtime interaction with her in the hub areas. Like, no joke, I legit thought the game was glitched in A House Divided when you couldn’t talk to her in either of the later hubs despite her lack of mysterious backstory relevance, the events around these hubs being a perfect fit for the development she had gotten earlier in the episode, and her seemingly simple purpose in relation to Clementine. But nope, I’ve listened to a collection of her voice clips and it’s not a glitch—they just apparently didn’t think of anything much for her to say during these scenes.
I feel like these two things left the fans that really liked her feeling gypped and wanting and led to those who didn’t get into her character feeling put off and/or alienated because none of us were being offered the chance to get to know her more on our time, which can be instrumental in understanding her. And then there’s one of the character traits that both makes her standout even more from the rest of cast but also leads to quite a bit of divisiveness in her reception: her lack of presence in more action-based scenes.
Now I for one very much appreciate having more introverted characters like Doug, Alvin, and Sarah around since it keeps the cast speciated and offers more opportunities for contrasting interactions. But unfortunately for some, Sarah’s premise as a character basically provides an example of what Clementine would be like without Chuck’s influence on Lee and the support necessary to become accommodated to the post-outbreak world. This leaves her as someone who, while friendly, empathetic, and humble, is prone to becoming anxious, being overemotional/hypersensitive in her thinking, and making a few bad judgment calls in stressful situations due to her PTSD, which in conjunction with also actually being a teenager just made things much harsher on her. So a key descriptor of her character is trying to help her deal with so much shit being flung at in a relatively short sequence so that she can learn to be more of a survivor in her own right like she wanted.
But alas, one of the many, many factors that made her ultimate fate such a huge sticking point for most people is the fact that it completely neglects this aspect of her character development despite there being a fair amount of buildup to it, with the only hand wave given besides the assumption that she simply wouldn’t have had a gun to use on her is Bonnie telling her to stay out of everyone else’s way at the end of a dialogue prompt wait period. I know that technically, there were a number of catalysts to her death that was in place, but none of that excuses how that just threw away a major character for most of the Season in such an unnecessarily contrived, mean-spirited, and unfitting fashion.
So in conclusion, the steps that would’ve been necessary in improving upon her character to give her a more concentrated focus, go into deconstructing her place in the group compared to everyone else a little more, don't get too unnecessarily black and/or white with her, and, as I was recently reminded of, have her actually be available to talk to in between action sequences.
Me: looking through threads. Spots an essay about Sarah. I admire your dedication -_-
Javier in A New Frontier ran into similar issues as Season 2! Clementine, with some of them being a little worse. First off, I'd like to compliment how I much of a refreshing change of pace I find him to be compared to previous playable characters. For what it's worth, I think he's a pretty okay if not good character in his own right, being more of a fun-type of protagonist due to his charm and sense of humor lending to some occasional one-liners while also having a relatable, if universal motivation. And given that ANF was apparently striving to bring things more in line with the comics, having us play as a more gimmicky character makes perfect sense (speaking as someone who still hasn't watched the show, mind you). But the one issue he definitely has is not having much of a personal arc or motivation all of his own.
As I said, his motivation in the game's tagline--"When family is all you have left…how far will you go to protect it?"-- is a universal one shared my people and many characters, with Kenny pretty much being the poster boy of that for this game series, for better or worse. But I feel like that motivation is pretty bare bones when you realize that it's pretty much the only thing driving most interpretations of Javi; everyone else in the Garcia family(including Marianna?) shares that sentiment to an extent, but they also have some other interests and flaws that further flesh them out. What drives Javier throughout the story beyond a need to live up to the expectations of his abusive brother and later a pre-mortem promise to his old man?
While I'm somewhat pleased to say we were mostly distracted from it thanks to Above the Law being more lore and character driven than the previous episodes, one criticism I still had in mind was Javier’s status as his own character. It was near the end of the episode, when things were calming down for the oncoming storm that I realized that nearly everything Javier sees and does in the story involved things touched by David first: Kate, Gabriel and Mariana, the New Frontier, and even Clementine all fall into that category.
Now, this is actually a common trap in certain works, where it feels like the main character's destiny was decided for him and he's dealing with things brought on by his allies and predecessor's actions and for what it's worth, I think the many of the progressing choices Javier can make are firmly capable of being by his own will. However, it doesn't change the fact that who Javier is has relatively little to do with the plot, unlike with Lee, most of the 400 Days Characters, or even S2!Clementine. And while he's got more to him than the likes of Wyatt or especially Tripp, a small part of me still thinks we haven't really gotten to know Javier himself all that much.
So I think it would’ve been nice to invoke OG!Clementine, the Stranger, and Luke by having Clementine or someone else take Javier aside during a grace period and get to explain more about his past and who he thinks he is through his own lips. And with Gabe, the tritagonist of ANF, being 25% determinant as well, the question of who Javier is without his family after so many years traveling together is unfortunately laid on the table.
Thanks. Is it cause I'm one of the few to talk about someone besides the usual three or the ANF cast?
Anyway, here's another interesting post about her.
Here is a concise list. I’m going to skip the obvious ones like Lee, Clem and Kenny because if you don’t understand why they are prime examples of fantastic character development then you’re a lost cause.
I’m going to mention mostly season one and ANF characters to keep this short but just as a side note season 2 characters were well written. But, again if you can’t figure that out, there might not be any hope for you.
Well-made characters and why
Lilly – carries the burden of caring for Larry (who is extremely unlikeable) while trying to lead a group of survivors who constantly question her judgement, and in the end the stress finally breaks her
Larry – you hated this guy but you loved the fact that he was so obviously a minor antagonist who you had no other choice but to live and deal with, and when you finally had the option to do him in and get revenge for all the times he was a jerk to you, it became a very heavily weighted moral question
Andy from the farm – A tragic story to say the least. They were so obviously the antagonists of the episode and it didn’t take much to realize that they were cannibals but despite that Lee leaves the St Johns Dairy in ruins. Andy wasn’t evil, just misguided by his beliefs but Lee took all that away by killing part or all of his family and leaving him to die (or killed him, I think that was a choice). I really wished we had gotten to seem come back as a good guy.
Omid – the only person who still has a sense of humor in the apocalypse, someone to lighten the tone of a dark depressing story
The Stranger – you never meet him until the end where you find out that a lot of your past choices affect his story and dialogue to a certain degree
Ben – wimpy kid who always messes up as plot convince, pretty much the same as Gabe until CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT kicks in and he stands up to Kenny and promises to make things right which is what redeems him and makes him a brilliant character
Meh characters and why
Chuck – literally only existed to deliver overly dramatic lines and create suspense for the plot
Christa – not used enough, just disappears at the beginning of season 2, to me at least it seemed like you guys were building up to her appearing again at wellington in place of Edith’s character
Jesus – oh look another comic character, I guess not enough people were buying our story so lets freeload off of someone else’s story. He is only a well-established bad ass if you read the comics but in the game, he is just a deus ex machina
Marianna – only likeable character in ANF because the Javi x Mari companionship should have reminded players of the Lee x Clem relationship... but she is dead so...
Poorly written characters and why
Gabe – Ben’s character but never progresses past moronic jerk, and no the line “well he is a teen and that’s what puberty does to you” does not cut it as an excuse, mainly because no teens do not act like that especially not during the freaking end of the world when your life is on the line every other day, and no, only a moron who does not understand biology and who says “hormones and stuff” when they hear the word puberty, would been that teens behave, I would know, I go to school with them, they are just like adults but less experienced and slightly more clueless, try talking to a teen for once rather than assuming their behavior
Kate – I liked Kate’s character until she went all flip floppy and a day after saying we have to get out of this place to we have to stay and help, and yes, your games are bout choice but there is no logical reason to abandon your brother and steal his wife (while he is still in your group mind you) and try to save a town of murderous lunatics who have only shown themselves to be entirely hypocritical psychos “hey lets shoot an unarmed little girl (Mari) who is standing in the middle of a bunch of heavily armed adults” “lets drive up to their settlement (presscott) and make demands while they have the high ground and a wall, and therefore have a tactical advantage over us” “lets drive a bunch of slow moving not so dangerous walkers into the middle of that town, its not as if we already have a hard enough time dealing with the FUCKING ZOMBIE APOCOLAPSE” “Hey look the people who attacked us before have come right to the gates of Richmond and are demanding help… lets not shoot them and take their stuff”
Ok im done now, I digressed away from the question
Pretty sure he stopped doing that by the climax of Thicker than Water. Maybe even sooner depending on your choice.
And for the umpteenth time, use Nick instead of Ben for a comparison.
Oh.... Hearing that line from Lee saying how killing things can change you and that you shouldn't get used to it... really makes me think about how much it has changed her. Damn. "It'll consume you." Those words chilled me to the bone.
You guys did pretty good with most of the character arcs in TWD Season 1 and Game of Thrones. Some of them failed hard but others were done really well. Lee, Doug, Lilly, Asher, Mira, etc. But characters like Kenny, or characters from the entire Season Two case (ESPECIALLY Jane and Luke), Ethan Forrester, etc. These characters are poor, they're badly written, they need improvement, and they all go NOWHERE. It's hard to recapture the writing of great characters, I know, but if you can't do that, maybe settle for Bigby Wolf and Javier Garcia. While not amazing characters they had very satisfying character arcs that all went surprisingly well.
Ben in Kenny in season 1 had the most character devolpment. Kenny went from a helping hand, to agreeing with mostly everyone in the group. He then turns into an asshole. He then redeems himself later in the most heroic way if you didn't drop Ben. Ben was shy and nervous, just a sidcharacter. But he then turned into the character we all hate, he also caused Kenny's character change in episode 3. Ben was a little shitbird but he redeems himself by telling Lee to drop him. He then stands up to Kenny, making Kenny change again. So basically, shitbird caused Kenny's changes in his character.
OH MY GOD YOURE BACK!!!!!
Yeppity Deputy!
I loved his death.
Booooo Sarah sucks....killed Nick....Booooooo....got what she deserved...only not as painful!!! Boooooo!!
That is how quite a few posts went on about Sarah. As Dabbydoo states in his Sarah post above, Sarah deserved better as a character....and once again I will lay the blame at the over use of Kenny in S2. The building blocks to several great characters were there...but for whatever reason...Telltale reverted back to using Kenny as if he never had his character arc in S1....it is like...yeah we know he learned a lesson or two by the end of season1...but hell we need conflict...so lets supersize him in S2.