On the "romance" between Clem and Gabe (EP 5 SPOILERS)
Hello!
I'm really desperate for answers, here, so if someone from Telltale - @Alyssa_TTG and @AdamWritesVideoGames (I believe Adam was lead writer on S305) - can help me understand this, I'll give you all the high fives. Well, I won't, 'cause distance. But I'll update this discussion with a cute bunny rabbit gif, so that's a pretty tempting deal. Hell, if anyone from the community can gimme an answer, that'd be pretty hype.
Why does Clementine kiss Gabe because of the Jane ending, and why does she act so strangely this entire season? Did ANF's writers dislike Jane, what with her suicide and then this?
I'm not saying that this, alone, made me very much dislike A New Frontier. But it definitely didn't help my opinion, considering I was already complaining about Clementine acting so hideously out of character. Seeing that scene, back when the episode premiered, got me extremely irked. However, I realised it's never really been explained. So I kinda was hoping it COULD be ^ _ ^
You know when you see something happen, and you're so amazed that professionals you used to look up to thought that it was anywhere close to a 'decent' idea that you simmer away in silence, a heavy sense of disappointment, incredulity and horror burning in your gut as you glare at the thing that irritates you so much? 'cause I did, after playing A New Frontier. I really don't understand this. The Jane ending already got a kick in the balls when someone decided Jane should hang herself in her flashback, rather than - y'know - give her a death that doesn't contradict her entire character. And then, to add insult to injury, they made a potentially emotional death scene absolutely infuriating by thrusting a 'ship' in the players face. It really winds me up, as someone who - in the game - chose every single option to go against this 'romance'. So, despite the claim that my actions have consequences, mine didn't have dick. Except for the fact I chose to save Jane over Kenny, and so that means "she gotta kiss him dood". Like, c'mon, Telltale, hanging Jane wasn't enough?
Also, they knew each other for two days, but Clementine laments on how she thought she'd always be alone until she met him. It honestly makes my head hurt, trying to understand. I get that different people like different things, but I really - honestly - cannot see how the JANE ending (You know, that woman who was teaching Clementine to go it alone? To not trust people? Who, in the save generator, literally teaches Clementine the value of 'independence'?) would be the ending which forces a kiss scene. Jane, throughout season two, went on and on about how people are better off alone. When Luke dies, it's one of the few times we see Jane genuinely upset, so why would Clementine gamble feeling the same way after seeing her last mentor act like that?
I want to also add that this can't have been added by "fan demand", so I'm going to nip that reply in the bud. I say this, because this is the reaction it cultivated on the Youtube video I ripped to get the screenshot for this thread.
Telltale is dead. Just when you thought this abomination of a series couldn't get any worse.
And then there's this thread, with people saying things like:
Let's just be honest for a second, the way Clementine acts in this scene is way out of her character, she can't be in love with a guy she met 2-3 days ago and talk to him like 2-3 times, Gabe having a crush on her make more sense, but no the other way around. There is no way that my clem back from S2 will do something like this, and the worst is that it depends on going to Jane or not, a thing that doesn't really make sense, since i didn't see jane telling Clem to "fall in love" with a guy you barelly new and with a guy that the best interaction that you have is playing cards after talking to him just one time before this happens...
WTF PLS TELL ME ITS LIKE AN EARLY VERSION OF THE GAME ND IT WAS EVENTUALLY TAKEN OUT PLS
Does this actually happen?? God, I've never been more glad I chose Kate. Just so I don't see this abomination
--- Unfortunately it does if you make certain choices. I really think Gabentine is forced no matter how you look at it.
And I who thought this season was finally done and couldn't get worse...
It makes absolutely no sense and is an overall very shallow relationship.
Plus it's dumb pandering.
MY HUGE PROBLEM WAS WHAT CLEMENTINE SAID BEFORE THE KISS!!!!! Something along the lines of "I always thought i'd be alone... until I met you." WTF???? THEy BARELY KNOW EACH OTHER THaT LINE WAS RIDICULOUs! seriously made no sense
--- Does she actually say that? Are you kidding me? If that's how Telltale is going to write Clementine with romantic feelings, they might as well just keep her celibate.
Its not "just a kiss". It's extremely poor writing and it's forced. She basically confesses her love for him before she kisses him in that scene. That really came out of no where and it was just put there to make the fans happy.
That's just the first four pages. Out of twelve. Yeeaaaa.
One reply I heard Telltale gave, in response to this, was someone saying "Haven't you ever had a crush on someone you just met?" - thank you to @MRSHYGUY45 for correcting me on the phrasing 
- and that answer, if anything, just left me even more baffled. Believe it or not, I have had the occasional moment where I - GASP - "like like" someone, but that doesn't mean that after two days I say how I thought I was always going to be alone before I met them, before kissing them. Bonus points if I did that on their deathbed. I really, genuinely, do not understand that line of thinking.
So, not only has this romance been completely forced and shoved down the audience's throats in an attempt to - I dunno - appeal to the 10% who asked for it, I guess, you've actually upset even more people than before this 'event' happened. Please, Telltale. I really want to like A New Frontier, but things like this are making that really difficult. I realise that this is an 'old' topic, that most the conversation should be looking forwards and not backwards at this ... less than ideal season, but it's kind of niggling at me that 'A New Frontier' chose to write a Clementine 'romance' in such a bizzarely framed way.
I also don't see any hints of Clementine actually 'liking' Gabe, in earlier episodes. Gabe definitely has a crush on her, so I thought it was going to be a one-sided crush thing, and we - as Javi - would have to be like "things don't work out all the time, you gotta let it go buddy" and stuff like that. But, instead of making it a way to pity Gabe, it ended up being that someone higher up decided to have a really forced - and, to quote my dad when he saw this scene, 'utterly mental' - scene of Clementine professing her love to a near enough stranger, completely taking the winds out of a pretty sad death scene. I really want to understand at what point Clementine goes from talking to him to calm him down to talking to him 'cause she wants to kiss him? Maybe I'm just dumb.
So, I'm really trying to ask as nicely as I can - @Alyssa_TTG , you've answered other questions about A New Frontier stuff, and I was wondering if you could please help me understand the idea behind this decision, as creative director of the season? Why did the Jane ending get dragged through the proverbial mud yet again? What was the thought process behind assigning it to the Jane ending? Why did you decide to go through with it? Or, if you're not Telltale staff but agree with the kiss and the fact that the Jane ending 'warranted' it, why is this? I'd really like to understand the decision, believe me ^^
Please, Telltale?
Think of the bunny gif...
EDIT 1 - Thank you very much, again, to @MRSHYGUY45 for helping me with the phrasing of the reply Telltale gave on this particular issue. I appreciate it!
Comments
I'll give you the same answer they gave us:
"Haven't you ever had a crush on someone you just met?"
I know, it's part of why I almost begged the only staff I know on the site, 'cause - as I brought up in the post - I really feel that's not an adequate explanation.
It'd be like if they had Clementine murder someone with a fire axe in the most brutal way possible, and then they rationalised it as "Haven't you ever had a burning urge to murder someone?" Sure, some people REALLY rub me the wrong way, but that doesn't mean I'm going to act on that feeling of wanting to brain them. It's a really weird defense that they've purported, in my opinion, which is why I've tried to appeal to Telltale to get a 'better' answer.
I'm not blaming you, don't get me wrong - in fact, thank you very much for letting me know the exact phrasing, I'll add that to my post and credit you
- but I'm mostly just kind of floored that the same company that made one of the most beautiful endings to a video game of all time has sort of collapsed to this level ._.
Not to mention they haven't really explained WHY Clem suddenly "likes" Gabe (which I think is determinant). What does he have that made her feel that way? Yeah I've crushed on people who I just met, but that's because they had a trait or something I liked. With Gabe, what does he have that Clem likes besides being the same age as her?
Thank you
Personally, I'd say it's just Telltale having it's cake and eating it too. At nearly all of our expenses, natch.
It doesn't help that they had Gabe initially be sternly unimpressed at the notion of "like-liking" Clementine and then suddenly backtrack in the same episode where she was the most superfluos.
You could say the same about the other way around. (Which I WISH was at least determinant)
Actually, the thing that should've told me they were gonna copout was Javier stating that's not the case at the beginning of the episode.
THIS ISN'T THE TITANIC TELLTALE!
At this point, I fully believe when they put Gabe in the game, they thought "Oh they're both the same age and a different sex, they can be boyfriend and girlfriend!" and that's how Gabentine was created.
Though I think they made it determinant cause of all the hatred towards it, but felt they had to to keep it in in some fashion, so I guess they picked a ending out of a bag and Jane's ending was chosen as the one that supports Gabentine.
It's one of the worst romance stories I've seen, if you can even call it that.
Given the details you put into your post, it sounds like you have a pretty firm disagreement with a creative decision we made. I respect that position; character motivations/goals are subjective things and we won't always see them the same way.
The part of your question that I can answer definitively, I will.
My Clementine ended her S2 with Jane in Howe's (and let the family in as well.) So no, I don't hate Jane in the slightest, and I don't believe any of the other folks on the creative team do either.
no
period
People can get crushes or want to fuck (i think some people actually want to do things like that) after three minutes of introduction but "falling in love"? Are you for real? nope, nope nope nope. nope. what the actual shit
Wowsers, thank you very much for replying to this. I did a little jump when I saw your name in my activity feed! I really do appreciate you, the creative director of the entire season - such a cool job title - mingling with the fans of their game, as I feel that's the mark of someone who does care about what people think of the product you're trying to sell. Despite my mixed feelings towards the season, I definitely am grateful to you for reading through my little rather long thread. I just have one more tiny question that I really would like answered, which I don't think is spoilery - but if you can't answer it I understand. But first!
As a man of my word - or, at least, a collection of atoms of my word - please accept this rather large .gifv of two bunnies sniffling next to each other, as me trying to give back to you for reading through my - on a second reading - rather heated thread ^^
Thaaaat being said, while I'm super stoked there's another Jane ending person - make them leave is my favourite ending to season two, shh don't tell anyone - I do also feel, with all due respect, that character motivations are made somewhat less 'subjective' when we're straight up told them in a save selection screen. I'm really not trying to sound dismissive, here, as I definitely understand characters are subjective! It's what makes the Kenny v Jane argument so controversial - despite the contrasting opinions, there's no "right" answer.
The issue I take, then, is when the character is flaunted as imparting the following wisdom, as a 'mentor' to Clementine:
My question, then:
Could I trouble you to indicate, for me and anyone else curious, which of these 'themes' suggest that Clementine would 'learn' to love someone after knowing them for two days, when all of these ideologies suggest - at least, from how I'm reading them - a degree of mistrust to other people, doubt of groups, and looking out for number one.
There's nothing cunning, or survival minded - and it's definitely not independent - to fall this hard for a kid she shares no chemistry with, and just ends up kissing him for ... reasons. I'm really not trying to downplay this - mostly because I wouldn't know where to start - but, to be honest, there's no set up for it besides Gabe crushing on her so hard it was painful how hard I was rolling my eyes, and as someone else on the thread pointed out:
There's no chemistry between them, it's just "she's thirteen and she's a girl and he's forteen and he's a boy so they have to love each other okay?" Again, it also doesn't help that this has been partnered with the ending that requires you to side with someone who teaches that the only thing that matters is that your heart is beating and you're alive.
Now, if one of the 'themes' was hinting at relying on people to get what you want, so be it. But none of them do. One of these themes quite literally says "You need to get by on your own", but this scene is a complete contradiction of that, if you get what I mean? I'm not trying to be a Debbie Downer - at least, not deliberately - but I'm also a bit weary that the Jane ending was rewarded with another slap in the face after seeing how she died, as it completely invalidated a whole season of me saying "NO" whenever people hinted at the two teenagers falling for one another. Being almost 'punished', then, by having this contradiction between what the character is meant to have been taught and what the character does leaves a bit of a sour taste in my mouth.
Thank you very much for your time, Alyssa \o/ I'll stop wasting your time and go back to imagining Jane and Clementine having happy fun times, now...
EDIT:
I also want to throw in that one of the rare times we saw Jane genuinely upset in season two was after Luke died, where we see this scene:
Wouldn't Clementine, after seeing Jane - who's usually so tough and, to be honest, kind of impressive at how well she buries what she's trying to feel - get visibly upset after seeing their 'thing' go up in flames (or down in lakes in this situation...), want to stay as far away from that kind of grief as possible? Jane even admits that they weren't in a relationship to Clementine, if you ask, they just did 'kissing stuff', and Jane looked visibly distressed, and her voice actress did a hauntingly beautiful job at capturing sorrow in a few tiny words. I dunno, it feels like a cop out, putting the unpopular kiss scene with the unpopular Jane ending, considering how it contradicts so much of Clementine and Jane's characters. I could be wrong, but I dunno.
A MASSIVE thank you to @MRSHYGUY45 @DabigRG @Lilacsbloom @bloop @RavenSnowstorm @AronDracula AND @TheMPerson for leaving your thoughts on this thread. I really appreciate all the time everyone has taken to read this and leave little comments sharing their perspective
updated - thanked AronDracula and TheMPerson for contributing to the thread
You would think Jane's ending be Anti-Gabentine because of what happened to Jane and her and Luke's relationship.
Not even a Romance story. Far from it.
It's because Jane slept around on a whim.
Pretty much one of the biggest problems, yes.
The funny thing is the first 3 episodes(with one thankfully dummied out exception) subtley implied this was a train of thought and Telltale were mocking it with no intention of actually doing it.
Then Thicker than Water was rewritten by different writers and they retconned it in in a blatantly lazy fashion, to almost no one's delight.
I honestly believe they made Gabe determinant at the last possible minute specifically to have their cake and eat it too--Friggin DCFDTL!
claps
CLAPCLAPCLSPCLAPCLAP
holy crap
I'm just baffled at the forced romance because you end up being with the "Mary Sue" character that players are sick of.
...What?