Telltale I'm afraid I'm too late! (Season 4 Lee)
As everyone begins to read this submission, keep in mind that I share the same mental illness as other Lee lovers. Please don't try and argue with me about why Lee is dead. I only wish I wrote this sooner. I simply wanted to lobby for a direction for Season 4. Telltale did a marvelous job and to this day I am still ruined about Lee. I've seen the post from a developer about Lee, and I quote "Lee was bit. He is dead." I get all that, however if this is the final season Telltale has the opportunity create wildly different conclusions from the choices we've made from Season 1 to 4. There's no reason, like in previous seasons, for outcomes to converge at the end. This leads me to my point.
I need Lee.
I can't get over Lee. I keep thinking how I played out every major choice methodically and it makes me question if he lived. I told Clementine not to shoot Lee. I handcuffed Lee to the radiator. I cut Lee's arm off. I don't care what a developer says. Telltale caused my state of denial and I won't accept that response. My heart is full of disbelief, sadness and guilt! "Life is for the living..." I tell to myself, trying to push through the series. My adaptation of Clementine is always seeking out other caring people like Omid and Javi to fill that void, but I need a path to closure. I need an outcome to go back to Lee. I need to see him. I don't care if I have to face the reality of viewing an undead corpse handcuffed to a radiator. Maybe he passed out from blood loss again.. Maybe he's still alive?? And I find some sort of evidence of it? I don't need to be right, but I want an opportunity to truly close the door, cry my eyes out, and move on... Or feel happy? If that's an okay emotion to feel. I know this sort of genre says no to my happiness, but hey it can still be an option if I played my choices right... Right?
Grief is a problem of narrative. A story, in order to be told, needs a narrator with a point of view who offers a perspective on what happened. But you can’t narrate if you don’t know who you are. That's the numbness in Season 2 that people call survivors guilt. Clementine (and I and many of your players Telltale..) have not been given the opportunity to move on as we were still finding ourselves through Clem. From the perspective of the narrator/player/in this case Clementine turning the page is not about remembering or forgetting Lee. It's about closing this chapter so a new one can start. This is the same way we all deal with grief and can't think of a more fitting end.
Thanks for reading my too late wall of text sweet peas. Thanks Telltale for the obviously unique experience that may or may not put me in a psych ward. It's been fun!
Comments
I think if we get too much Lee, then eventually we will get sick of him, and eventually will not want anything to do with him
I definitely don't think they should bring him back but it would be nice to see him in a kind if dream at the end of the season, sort of like when clem was shot by Arvo.
I guess that depends on the direction that Telltale wants to go. They can have a final convergence point. An ending that everyone gets to just with different determinant characters along the way. However, from my perspective why not try to shake up the formula for the final game of this series and make different arcs with different endings.
I would lobby for branching paths where players can really seek out what they've been troubled by in the series. Based on what you've said it seems like you aren't super interested in revisiting Lee. What direction do you want the game to head in? Or are you fine going with their flow?
Oh, I reeaaalllly want to see Lee, but it won’t do me any good if he is used too much, I don’t mind if we hear his voice in Clem’s head, or if he is mentioned only once, or is in a flashback but we’ll never see him again in the flesh unless he is a corpse, such as clem revisiting the store, or at the very end it pans through every location we’ve been through so far, showcasing Lee’s body/walker form in the jewellery store at some point
I don't want to bring him back. I want to seek him out. To truly verify with my own eyes that he's dead. Honestly they could just pan over him in the credits if they wanted to and I'd accept that. I guess the wider more ambitious scope of what I'm saying is Telltale has the freedom, if they choose to, give us very different avenues and resolutions.
Typically the seasons branch off during the journey, but end assembling at a place where they can set the stage for the next season. Everyone from that point will be in nearly the same spot as they continue the story. All I'm saying is with this being the end that formula doesn't have to be implemented. They have the freedom to be very creative!
For me that's kind of what I want. I disagree with you that he's dead. Until I see it I won't give up hope that there's a path of decisions from Season 1 that kept him alive. It'd be a huge disappointment for me if I couldn't confirm it visually.
Again though this is my point of wildly different directions for Season 4. I think it'd really cap the series off in a positive and lifelong memorable way.
Well he WAS bitten, and Kirkman has established that if you don’t cut the limb off as soon as it happens, or if the bite is on your head or torso, then there is no coming back from it, no cure, no lucky individuals, so that should be enough confirmation that Lee is dead. Telltale have even confirmed this themselves
And as an active participant in their experiment I am suffering from the loss and I cannot stop questioning it. Take me out of the story and telling me details feels cheap. Let me feel out my frustration and confusion in the game.
That's really the question. Did Lee cut the limb off in time. Each person is different in how long it takes to turn. How do you know? You had the question yourself and is prevalent enough that players have to ask the devs and the devs issue a response. That's not good game design for something this meaningful. If they want players to move on from Lee then a statement like that is incredibly weak. (I honestly don't believe them when they say it...)
As you can tell with my behavior and irrational feelings that there are other players like myself they should have done more to help us move on within the game.
You're not wrong, but can you see my desire to want to close the chapter with seeing a corpse? Like in life. Some people need to see the body of the deceased. Especially when you can create enough doubt about the death.
Clementine shot him in my playthrough so I don’t think he really has much chance of being alive.
This is precisely why it can be a unique outcome for those who played their card in a way that left it open ended for Lee. Telltale has the stat breakdown. But there's probably a solid percentage of people that were in denial (like myself) and did every step possible to preserve Lee.
You could tell that Lee was weak, he was pale af and could barely stand up, not at all, and he kept blacking out. If anything my statement is extremely powerful
No doubt it's serious. To me it's signs of blood loss.
Lee is dead. There is no way he will come back alive. His death was a pivotal part of the series and Clementine's development, and Telltale knew from the very beginning that the season would end in his death.
That being said, I think there is still room for Lee in a flashback or some kind of hallucination. Preferably give us a flashback to Clem's time in the s1 group at the motor lodge. Let us see beloved characters like Lee, Kenny, Carley, and everyone else for one last moment. Or at least let us talk about them to another character and let us shape how our Clem felt about them.
I thought they could be more creative to help the people like me who are in denial over it. I mean to me it was clear they want him dead. All I'm asking for is a chance to see his body. So I know without a doubt since I can't read between the lines. Perhaps a Season 1 survivor caught up to Lee and meets up with Clem in Season 4. Maybe he/she retells their experience of seeing Lee turn (or shot). Or maybe they flip the script a little.
From what I remember through the trailer for Season 4 it seems Clem wasn't initially going to be the focus, but they changed that from the player base support for her. I don't see a problem with Telltale creating a scenario based of a strict set of choices from prior seasons where Lee actually lives. That depends how elaborate they want to make the final season and if they want players to have vividly different experiences. Which I continue to lobby is really the cornerstone of the game to me. The game is about choices and because of their formula it feels more like the choices, though they may be different, the overall outcome is predestined. Which is fine if they want to tell a story in a specific way, but it really takes the shine of the franchise that the butterfly effect isn't explored more deeply in the final episode.
Sounds like what happened with Kenny, actually.
I think seeing Lee’s body is a bit too much, I however do wanna see lee alive and well but in a flashback perhaps from the motor inn days or how the group met mark or so.
Listen friend, Lee is undoubtedly a special character. Everyone on these forums love the character of Lee. But what made Lee special is how he went from a murderer to a Father-like figure to a young 8 year old girl called Clementine who was clearly overwhelmed and frightened by the events that she had witnessed. Sandra, her babysitter had sadly passed away while trying to get help so to save Clementine's life and her own life from the undead . Clementine was alone. Then Lee came and found her. He took care of her, looked out for her and treated her like she was his child. Meeting Clementine changed Lee. His sole priority was to help Clementine survive, To give her an opportunity to live her life. Kenny (Love him or Hate him) also wanted this for Clementine. But let's try to keep the focus on Lee. Lee cared deeply for Clementine and often had her in his mind when making a decision. However Lee was bitten one day while searching for Clementine as she was missing. He was determined to find Clementine and save her. Lee did just that. He gave up his life to save Clementine's life. As much as I love Lee I can't see Clementine going back to Savannah to find him. In my playthrough I asked Clementine to shoot Lee so to ease his suffering. That scene in Episode 5 was special. It forever cemented the love that the Community has for Lee Everett. We were very fortunate to experience a reunion with Lee in Episode 5 of Season Two in the form of a Flashback. I miss Lee just as much as you do but I am afraid it isn't possible for him to return in The Final Season unless through a Flashback, by which it may take away some of the magic of his character.
Who is dead is fucking dead FOR FUCKSSAKES. It's like saying John Marston in Red Dead Redemption didn't die because he was still standing up for a few seconds after being shot multiple times. Enough with those stupid nonsensical theories that he survived, Telltale has NO reason to bring Lee back because he is dead. If they wanted to bring him back, they could have easily just not kill him in Season 1 but what's done is done. This is the Walking Dead, not Resident Evil. If they chose to kill Lee in the way they did to Larry, would you still think he is alive?
Thanks for saying something that I didn’t have the heart to say ?
Yeah, Lee’s dead, and bringing him back IN ANY WAY will just take away the magic that we felt in season 1 and at the end of season 2
Thanks Lee Everett. I love you
Besides, would you want Clementine to go back and find a zombified Lee handcuffed to a radiator? It would probably ruin her seeing him like that, I think hallucinations are the better option.
Of course it's possible. The game is fictional the writers can do whatever they choose to despite what you or I think. Your opinion is just as valid as mine right now since we don't know what Season 4 will be like.
I personally think Telltale crafted this moment. They wanted every person to believe that Lee was dead. They left enough breadcrumbs for suspension of disbelief, if they decided to change their minds it's not out of the realm of possibility to me that Lily, or someone else could have tailed Lee. You make all the decisions to try preserve Lee, and let's say as Clem leaves Lily arrives and is able to get Lee to help. It's all hypothetical. The writers are talented enough to know it's not impossible and they probably love that people say it is.
I want Season 4 to be an open canvas that you and I can follow own hearts. We don't have to agree, or have the same ending. We want different things out of this experience and I'm simply expressing mine.
I have this dream that we as Clem will be revisiting locations from past seasons in the final Season. Going back to check places like Parker's Run, Howe's, Wellington, The Cabin, Gill's Pitstop, The St. John farm, The Motor Inn and, of course, Savannah. Determinantly finding Lee's body/walker is something I am definitely NOT opposed to, and if it'd make some players like you get closure, then the better it would be.
I don't like the idea of him possibly being alive though. It just doesn't feel plausible even if you cut his arm and even if the paleness was due to blood loss - he was still left with no medical care.
I think your analogy isn't quite right. It's a fictional game and they've left enough bread crumbs if the "right" choices were make in preserving Lee. They teased in season 2 and 3 about people living from bites. I'm not here to argue.
My whole point is we all want something different out of this. With it being the last season they have the creative freedom to give players unique experiences. If they want to. Think about it this way. If I can't get over it and I'm delusional, it's almost calming to see Lee's corpse. My mind can ease. I was wrong. I can let it go. I can move on. But it's my fictional journey it's what I want to go through. Obviously your path won't be close. We obviously made different choices and I want Telltale to have fun showing us how significant past choices are.
Don't get hung up on the Lee stuff. That's my fanboy coming out. Just try to be open to the idea of different main arcs based on previous decisions and wildly different endings to Season 4. I think that's my whole point.
Well, you see... uhrrmmm... I'm trying to figure out how to phrase this without sounding like a weirdo.
The Walking Dead is a game about grief. You could argue that it's a game about survival, or zombies, but for the most part, you don't get to choose who survives in TWD (think Until Dawn). The goal of the series has always been to expose the player to a sense of loss and sorrow that is uncommon in real life. No other game ever made me as sad as Seasons 1 and 2.
This feeling was more or less absent from ANF. That was one of the game's biggest faults. If Telltale lets us get closure on Lee this season, it would do nothing but ruin the feeling Telltale had strived so hard to achieve.
Refusing to show mercy on the player's well being is what made Season 1 and 2 such remarkable games. They denied you of any sense of happiness.
I'm hoping that Season 4 is absolutely going to obliterate me. If I don't come out of Episode 5 crying, I will be dissapointed.
I am glad that every character who has died had it happen to them. I don't know if it makes me twisted, but each death from Seasons 1 and 2 made me feel like I was actually losing a friend. And I loved it.
Anyway, this is just one man's unpopular opinion. But I will never be satisfied if Telltale gives us.... the satisfaction of getting closure. On Lee, or anything else that has happened in the past. This is why I don't want Christa, Lilly, or Javier to return.
Yes the game is fictional but the game has a set of laws laid out by Robert Kirkman, the writer of The Walking Dead comics. The rules he has laid out are
1. There is no cure
2. If you are bitten and fail to amputate the infected region of your body then you will die from the Infection
3. If you die you come back as a Walker
Telltale have to play by these rules as it is still Kirkman's creation. He often checks in with Telltale so to keep an eye on the product that Telltale are producing.
Well my path abides by those rules. I amputated Lee's arm. I never saw Lee definitively die. He was passing out a lot. Just google blood loss and those were his symptoms.. Which he probably would have died from, but we don't know what happened when Clem left.
I understand many people's endings are not open ended. However, that doesn't discredit mine open ended finish (that fits within "the rules")
This further solidifies my feelings that we need branching paths in Season 4. Everyone is hung up on the Lee stuff, even though our arguments are equal. I'd be happy to see Lee's corpse and move on. You see I left it open ended. I didn't shoot Lee. So I just don't know..
Dude, this is a zombie franchise, not science fiction. You could say the same for other dead characters like Duck, Luke, Kenny, Pete (Season 2), Alvin etc.
They mean that people who have the bite on one of their arms or legs can still live if they manage to amputate the perspective limb less than 10 minutes. It was too late to amputate Lee's arm because one hour passed after reaching Vernon's bunker and the infection was already in Lee's full body.
Believe me, I don't either but those nonsensical theories do nothing but get old every goddamn time. You still hoping for that shit after that disastrous piece of shit A New Frontier?
Nobody ever asked for a plot hole. Bringing Lee alive would be nothing but bad writing, no questions.
I hate how they handled the choices in A New Frontier because it depends on Clem's flashbacks ONLY and nothing connected to Javier's decisions.
I have no hopes anymore cause A New Frontier ruined everything that made Season 1 so good, I even doubt Telltale will redeem themselves with The Final Season.
I agree with a lot of what you are saying. It relates to my first post. Because of my in game decisions Lee's status was left open ended for me. It's I cannot close the chapter on Lee. Telltale has to help me and players like me move on from it. My redundant example is seeing the corpse. This is a normal thing for me to feel.
I understand others points of view on it. We all have experienced something different. Kinda makes you wonder how they satisfy everyone with another "linear" story.
Got to have some faith, maybe they’ll do better now that it’s the last season.
No it's the perfect way for my version of Clem to move on. My pain is from not knowing the truth since my path was open ended. Either way my heart and mind will be relieved to know.
Thank you for understanding that my experience has caused me to feel this way. And that though I may seem irrational to others, that seeing Lee in ANY form would help me move on. Sometimes I wish I just shot him. So then I would know. At the time I thought there was a chance and I still do, despite what the devs have said. They should have made it crystal clear for all players that despite whatever you chose, Lee was visually, conclusively dead.
(I mean it's not impossible for Lily or someone else to follow Lee and find him after Clem left and take him to safety.) But I know it's unlikely.
I'm at least expecting it to be better than A New Frontier.
Is it really 10 minutes? When was this stated? If that were true then you could assume he'd be dead, but I don't think that 10 minute rule has any evidence. If I'm mistaken I'm sorry.
I SAW myself shoot duck. I SAW Luke sink in the icy water with a walker wrapped around his leg. I SAW Pete's body devoured by walkers. I SAW Alvin nearly get beat to death and then get shot.
Now according to my logic because I didn't see Luke and Alvin die that it's possible they lived. We can only assume that players like Lee, Luke and Alvin are dead. But we never truly know right? It's just very LIKELY.
However, Lee's situation is unique to that. If you play through it there are some very hopeful decisions you can make. I call them preservation decisions. If you make all those decisions Season 1 ends open ended. You can't really know for sure what happened. And if I were Clem that'd wear on me... I'd want to know for sure. (Just my opinion) I'm ok with Lee being dead. I just need to see it. I wish if they wanted us all to move on from it that they made it WITHOUT A DOUBT that all outcomes despite how you played had Lee definitively die. That's all I'm trying to get at with my reply.
Also I liked A New Frontier.
Dude.... it's been like 5 years
I'm still hung up on it. I can't be the only one.
...How? Like, I want a serious answer to this.
Same here.
Are you kidding me? There are obvious answers that you should have already seen.
Tbh I think Luke has a better survival chance than Lee does