What do you think should happen with Joan and Clint in the final season?
As all of you who have played ANF are aware in episode 4 you make a choice that results in the death of either Joan or Clint. The game files suggest that originally that choice was going to have an impact in episode 5 but they cut that out which makes me think Telltale wants to do something with them in the final season. What do you want to happen?
Personally in this particular situation for once I would be happy if your choices don't matter and they both get killed off anyways Telltale style 
and have no major role in the next season. Clementine can find them as a walker or something.
The reason I don't want them to play a significant role is because in my opinion they are the worst written antagonists (especially Joan) we have had in these games. Even Arvo was a better antagonistic character than Joan was. Joan was such a flat character, she felt like a villain from a show for little kids. This was a shame when the main antagonists of seasons 1 and 2 were written very well.
The stranger in season 1 had a lot of buildup starting from the end of episode 2. I loved how the confrontation with the stranger wasn't simply a dramatic fight scene. They built him up to be this creepy child predator but when you meet him you see that he wasn't a terrible person. In fact, he was a good person before the apocalypse but the death of his family had taken a terrible toll on him and was causing him to slowly go insane.
Carver was also a great antagonist. He was different from the stranger but was a very well written character as well. There was so much build up for him in episodes 1 and 2. In episode 3 you see that he isn't straight up evil but is willing to do whatever it takes to save the human race. You see that he actually has a major respect for Clementine and her remarkable strength and maturity especially for being at such a young age. He talks about how if the next generation is to survive they will have to be like Clementine. (Radical Kenny lovers who can't accept that Kenny wasn't this perfect saint please put you guns down.) Another thing that made Carver's impact on season 2 all the more compelling were the parallels seen between him and Kenny. You never learn Carver's backstory but it is not hard to infer that it was very similar to Kenny's. In fact, originally Kenny was supposed to be Carver but they decided to retcon that. I am glad they did this because having them as two separate characters allowed for them to have an interesting dynamic of parallels. This is likely to be an unpopular opinion but this dynamic is one of the reasons that caused me to enjoy season 2 even more than I enjoyed season 1. At the end of episode 3, parts of episode 4, and a lot of episode 5 you see that Kenny's mind is breaking and he is heading down the road of becoming very similar to Carver. Kenny was always hot-headed and stubborn but he was becoming increasingly more aggressive to anyone who questioned or disagreed with him. The only people he gave a damn about were Clem and AJ. (Don't get me wrong I love Kenny but there is no denying, his mind was breaking and he wasn't heading down a good path.) Depending on your ending choice Kenny ends up dead, alone, or you can stick with him and help to mend his mind putting him on a better path.
The final season deserves better than some stupid flat characters as the main antogonists. So please Telltale move on to more interesting character for the main antagonist.
Comments
There's kinda already a thread about this that I think was bumped a few day ago, but I like how direct you're being with this topic.
So I'll give thoughts, whatever they may be...tomorrow.
It's not like I'm being serious or anything, but I think it would be pretty funny if the first episode began with the player facing down Joan/Clint, but they get killed off not even a full five minutes in just to introduce another survivor. I don't know (shrugs).
I dont think they will receive the main antagonist role, but rather a small interaction with Clementine. Joan would likely be amassing more people to take back Richmond, Clementine can somehow warn Javi or sabotage her plans or simply ignore it and continue on her journey. Clint would be roughing it and trying to start up a new garden or something. Maybe he is planning revenge as well. Either way I'm pretty sure they would only get a cameo and not a major role. I do think they should be featured in some capacity because for them to disappear without their arcs resolved is a letdown.
I would be more than happy if they didn't show up at all in the final season. They were poor characters before, I doubt there's anything Telltale could do in the final season that would make up for it, and frankly, the less I have to be reminded about ANF, the better. Let them just stay unknown and never see them again. It's not like Telltale hasn't done that before with other characters.
Eh, honestly, they should probably do the same with them that they did with Lily in S2. Or Christa and Clementine in ANF. They're really not important or well done enough to justify bringing'em back.
They should... not be included at all.
The further away S4's plot is from all the ANF bullshit, the better. There's no potential for the characters or the setting they introduced with ANF.
After all the hate ANF got from fans I would be surprised if they did anything to do with them.
Okay, so, now that it's the next day and I've had a chance to recollect my thoughts on the matter, let's talk about what kind of role Joan/Clint could play in the Final Season.
Really thinking about it, I actually can see Joan returning with a considerable antagonist role. I mean think about it: she carried a lot of clout among the New Frontier and even the rest of the Richmond Council because of her diplomacy skills, had grunts within the other Councilors' Blocs, and . So after her "hearing" with David went totally sideways thanks to Clint overriding her and David immediately biting Clint's hand to get to her, she would've likely fled a city that had fallen into chaos due to David eventually killing Clint, both of their Blocs opening fire on the crowd trying to kill Javier, and one of them inadvertently causing Kate to let their escape truck crash and cause a breach allowing the herds to invade the city.
Given everything she's worked night and day to preserve was in process of potentially being wiped out, she would somewhere to fall back, to retreat to so she can reel from the devastation--somewhere like McCaroll Ranch. Given that Dr. Lingard's Bloc felt it was a safe enough place to leave AJ to live after his miraculous recover and the Doctor himself said it wasn't very far, I think it's safe to say that McCaroll Ranch is one of the locations that is communing terms with Richmond as well as the New Frontier. This makes it an ideal refuge for Joan and whatever representatives she had accompany her to fall back to. Which means the off track by over 3 days nomad Clementine will likely arrive at this acreage to find that is a Capricorn Farm, if you will, and may even see her long lost AJ being looked after by the Thai politician she loosely helped depose.
Cue a GTA-style setup with an unusual employer for an episode or two, possibly one that involves steps in Joan's plan to cover her tracks, retake Richmond, and/or take out Javier.
Clint, on the other hand would be a notable presence for different reasons; in fact, I think the way this OP and that of similar threads/posts addresses goes to show that this distinction is overlooked--unlike his fellow Councilor, Clint is not a villain in the slightest. As the Councilor in charge of the Rations Bloc, Barnes used his experience from his botany hobby to hep grow fruits and vegetables to feed the New Frontier and the people of Richmond. He also very much believed in "The System," the set of strict rules and guidelines that everyone under the New Frontier operates and lives by (well everyone except Badger, at least.) It is because of this System that misguidedly set aside the reveal of Joan's backdoor dealings in favor of dealing with the numerous crimes of David and his soldiers.
It was when she turned what was supposed to be a public hearing into a execution that also had her force Javier to gamble on two of his allies lives and then actually went through with it while betraying Javier for good measure that made Clint realize that Joan was not a fair leader anymore. So he seized command of their men, overruled Joan's orders, and gave the Garcias the opportunity to just take what was left of their people and leave Richmond, indirectly giving Javier the opening to shoot Joan dead on David's order and causing a riot that escalated to what very well could've been the city's destruction.
Clinton was presumably chased out of the city by the cross David. His exact destination after leaving is...well, kind of up in the air since, unlike Joan, he had no greater ambitions beyond simple running the city of Richmond in an orderly fashion. I honestly don't see him having a vendetta against the Garcias and instead see him simply dealing with the fact that he let the city and other settlements be put through a bleeding or two. Perhaps, if he is truly paralleled with Joan on a narrow level once more(deja vu with Kate), he may have a similar arrangement with Clementine that isn't as sketchy or hostile and may even be shorter/more bountiful than dealing with Joan in the same setup.
Another important detail that ANF brought up was the fact that neither of them really know Clementine and vice versa. Heck, they never even exchange dialogue with her outside of one determinant dialogue option if you took Lingard's deal. While Clint is a bit egregious for small reasons, this notably played into what I thought was supposed be an important distinction in Joan's short-term backstory and motivation, as she was explicitly stated to not be among the New Frontier during Clementine's time with them. Thus, they would only know her as a troublemaker and an ally of Javier, while she would only know them(well, Joan anyway) as a corrupt settlement leader who ordered raids on other settlements and tried to kill the Garcia Brothers, but not much else personally.
I thought of that too. With all the communities that she had her part in finding and taking advantage of, there has to be some other community out there that she has become allies with/left intact to use as a secondary living space if things went south with Richmond. And she seems like the type of person who would have a backup plan like that, since she didn't
really care about what the people felt about her rule, which is usually what you should care about if you're planning to run things long-term.
That does seem like a probable place for her to stay in a situation like this, but I really hope that she has some other place to stay. Though, it would be quite interesting to have her and AJ living under the same roof for a few days, and then having Clem come in and witness what's going on. With the whole ranch under Joan's control, having Clem show up there would probably have Joan asking questions pretty quickly. It would be almost impossible for her to take AJ from under Joan's nose without her knowing about their relationship. Hmm, having the villain uncomfortably close to a defenseless child that the protagonist is desperately trying to protect, with it all under a facade of righteous intent... Where have I seen this before?
Sounds like what Joan would do. Who knows, maybe someone inside Joan's ranch camp could help Clem to escape with AJ, someone who also knows how corrupt Joan is and wants out. (some sort of Ava incarnate?) They help Clem escape and get back to Richmond and in turn get a place to be free from Joan's rule, along with helping Javier out by warning them of Joan's plans to reconquer Richmond and introducing this "unusual employer".
I would say this could work out too. Maybe this "unusual employer" can still be a threat and Clint is trying to fight them to keep control of the Ranch. The "Ava incarnate" can still accompany Clem back to Richmond to both report back to some of their people there and help back up Clem's message of this unknown threat they need to prepare for. (Maybe they've a secret weapon that can flatten communities if they want to? Maybe a particular person with a tall muscular build and a black leather jacket makes an appearance?)
I say that's a good thing, since it can open up more room for other ideas besides their rivalry, like the development of some new characters.
Joan deserves a slow savory death. So I say throw her in a walker herd... With no walker guts BOOM.
So, give her the Norma treatment? I say we should at least get one more death like that, but maybe with another character? A twist on this could be having a character we care about going out this way because some asshole wants to set an example.
Both were hardly characters. Honestly I hope they only show up for a few minutes in one of the episodes just so that we can have that loose end tied up.
Something along those lines would be satisfying
Yeah, that would be an interesting plot point. Please, tell me how you came up with that idea?
Where did you see this before?
Ava incarnate? What, is she possessing the Capricorn foq?
Joan is the unusual employer, Jung.
Now that would indeed be interesting.
Yeah.
Yep, I didn't get past the first sentence before my mind started to wonder... At least we're on the same page?
They could be, but I was mostly thinking of them being a frontier member who's tired of the way things are being run. But I do like GreatWhiteWolf's idea of them being Richmonds exiles instead of them being frontier members that were commissioned to be there before Javier took over Richmond.
Ooh. That sounds more interesting than what I first read. We gotta work for AJ's freedom! But how far will we go to make sure he is safe? I hope we wouldn't just jeopardize the lives of our friends and everyone else back in Richmond for the sake of a baby. There's got to be a point where we draw the line, right?
I don't know. Your idea is looking way more appealing. Testing the limits to which Clementine is willing to backstab her own friends to fulfill her own motives seems way more interesting than trying to help Clint fight off some people at a ranch. We got enough fighting from the last game.
Sorry to spoil your fun, but it's really just a fuck-ton of walkers. The amount in the last game was only a shit-ton, a fuck-ton is like comparing a baseball to a boulder. And it only takes a gentle love tap to send it wherever you want, smashing everything in its path.
Does a baseball bat covered in barbed wire ring any bells?
I like Clint, but I don't see what use or need for him being in the final season. Joan I don't see her coming back unless it's a power struggle over New Frontier which would be more Javier centered.
I don't care what happens to them and as far as I'm concerned they were characters for Javi's story. We're back with Clem now, just focus on making new better and more intriguing characters for the last season instead of bringing back the trash from ANF.
I want them to fuck off. They were never characters someone was attached to. I want villains with a promising development.
...I liked Joan...
On that note, most villains in this series don't really get development in the classical sense, tbf.
To expand on this idea, @DabigRG I thought of some concepts.
When they first meet, Joan is sitting on the porch of the main house of the ranch with AJ in her lap. All sorts of feelings flood her mind as she approaches them, but she does her best to act like she doesn't know him so Joan doesn't get tipped off about their connection. Despite her efforts, Joan see's how Clem is looking at the child. She figures it out, but she pretends like she didn't notice. Clem and Joan make an agreement that she can stay as long as Clem sticks by her and does as she asks. The suddenly, Joan says, "Oh, it's time to put the little munchkin back in his room. I'll be right back." Clem has time to stand there and think about the situation. She just has a surprised look on her face, still trying to hold back her true emotions of extreme fear and anger. Joan comes back out a few seconds later and tells her to follow her around to the back of the house. Behind it is a cellar door and Joan opens it and gestures for Clem to go in. Clem is still trying to look neutral on the whole situation, but you can see her face is starting to tense up due to the amount of distrust rising in her. But once they get down to the cellar, things take a different tone.
It's a dark room lit by a single light. (Lantern/dim light bulb, whichever you choose fit's the situation) And on a counter near the wall are a bunch of maps, laying across it with writing on it but you don't really see it. And also shelves across from the counter with a bunch of miscellaneous materials on it. Pre-apocalyptic and newer materials alike. Joan leads her in front of the counter and they begin talking. Joan tells her that she knows the true reason why she's here, kinda like this;
"It doesn't seem right of you to abandon your friends like this, after everything you've been through with them. And the way you were looking at him..." Clem tried to deny it by saying, "It's not that at all... He just reminded me of someone I knew." "I know that type of look. I used to be a mother myself, you know... There's nothing like it." Clem didn't know what to say next, the stress from the fear of her knowing started to rise. It made her feel as if an invisible hand was put around her throat and was starting to squeeze, and it began to show as anger on her face. "I promise, as long as you do as your told, nothing will happen to him."
Joan has Clem start off just delivering food to outposts in the forests surrounding the Ranch, and is only given a knife for self defense between her trips. It's a way for Joan to gain trust in Clem to fulfill her later missions. When she meets some of the people out the outpost, they're just a bunch of guys with guns that're itching for some action. Some of them are showing hints that they're getting interested in how she looks, but she just ignores it and returns back to the ranch.
Clem isn't able to be by AJ while she is under Joan's control. Joan keeps him in the house, and when her and Clem meet to go over her tasks they always use the cellar hatch on the side of the house to go down and "talk business". When Clem does her job for the day, Joan dismisses her to do as she pleases, but Clem doesn't enter the house. Because she's a newcomer, she has the sleep in the shed off to the side of the house. (They could lock her in, they could not. I don't give a damn) But, every night her mind gets flooded with worry for AJ and she doesn't sleep well.
There are a few more times that Clem has to deliver some food to the outposts, but each time she goes there, the men get more and more curious about her. (Oh god that's unsettling...) It gets to the point where Clem has to get her knife out to get them to back off.
Clem goes to try to tell Joan about the situation, but Joan interrupts her and tells her to eat something she prepared for her. She notices that there's something off about the taste (a hint of alcohol in it), but she knows her bounds to Joan and reluctantly continues eating. Clem asks what was in it. And Joan says something like, "Oh it's just something to help calm your nerves. You always seem so tense every time I see you."
After she was done eating, Joan had her follow her to a place where they could talk privately. During the walk, Clem started to feel slightly light headed, and the deep seeded anger she had in her mind throughout the day started to dissipate. As if her mind was buried underneath pounds of dirt and a stream of water had come to wash it away, piece by piece. By the time they made it to a room and Joan closed the door, the world began to look different. Everything somehow looked brighter than usual, and a numbness bagan to run through her legs as she stood. Almost all of her thoughts of anger had dissipated, but she kept trying to hold onto the feeling. Without them she didn't feel safe, but those thoughts began to fade from her mind, too.
Joan first spoke. "Of someone his age, you couldn't possibly be his biological mother. How did you come across him? With the small bit of anger left in her, Clem wanted to reject the question. But after a momentary pause, she began to tell her.
"I knew his parents. They were in a cabin along with other survivors. Rebecca was due to have her baby soon, and Alvin was there for her. They were all on the run from this man that wanted to get them back. We tried to get as far as we could from him, but he eventually found us. We escaped from him, but he killed Alvin before we had the chance. Rebecca gave birth to him a day later." Clem paused. The memories were starting to get to her. Without her anger to suppress her emotions, she was only left with the sadness of it all. Joan prodded her on, "What happened to Rebecca?" Clem continued. "We tried to get her to move after his birth, but something was wrong. She began to get weaker by the day, and there was nothing there we could've used to help her. She died on the road with AJ in her arms. She turned, and we had to shoot her before she killed him." "AJ?", Joan asked. Clem forgot to leave his name out, but with her mind so different from how she usually is it was hard for her to hide anything. Even if you don't further explain, she figures it out anyways. "... He was named after his father... I see." At this point, the memories of everything that happened since then began to replay in her mind. The faces of everyone else she had lost along the way flashed through her subconscious, and her emotions began to amplify with nothing to hold them back. With these thoughts still fresh in her mind, and unable to hold it back, she began to speak, "With everyone else gone, he is the only one left." The strain of her emotions began to show on her face. "If I lose him, too..."
Normally, this type of thought would've put her into a blinding rage, but since her mind has been altered, it could only be distributed to her other emotions, and the damn had burst. All sense of her stone-heartedness and independence had disappeared, all you could see of her is of a sobbing child. Joan saw her that way and knew she wasn't going to get much more out of her. She had been wanting to get some information about Javier and tried to loosen her up by talking about her connection to AJ and of her past, but she didn't realize how much Clem had been hurting on the inside and how much she needed to get off her shoulders. Out of true pity for her, she wanted to comfort her. She walked over to her and gave her a hug. Clem, still in a child-like state and blinded by her emotions gave her one back, her head quietly sobbing into her shoulder. "It's alright... it's alright", Joan said in a soft tone. Joan had a sort of conflicted emotion to her face, as if this brought up some memories of her own.
Yeah, I just had to make fun of the fact that that was what I was covertly implying.
Oh. To be fair, the Stranger wanted keep Clementine since Lee was gonna die and acknowledges that revenge is his goal not because he believes in it, but because he has nothing else left. And Carver was just a obviously evil seeker.
Though incidentally, it reminds me of how Carver was trying to pass the Cabin Group off as being dangerous schemers, Sarah included
Ah, okay.
Exactly. It would really test what Clemetine is willing to potentially do/enable in order to reclaim AJ after so long.
I meant in the sense of being it's own little story distinct from making an uneasy deal with a devil you barely know. It'd highlight the fact that Clint was just concerned about upholding The System and looking out for the well-being of the people, as well as potentially offering opportunities to delve into Clementine's time with the New Frontier from a positive standpoint.
I know, I just wanted to capitalize on the wording there.
Also, how tired.
Oh,. Idk, man. I feel like it'd be kinda lame and awkward to bring in a main comic villain into this, given it was teased as "clemetine's story" and the previous installment having Javier.
Particularly after Mr. Blasphemous Ninja-Hobo Knight.
Hmm in my playthrough Joan got killed and Clint got away. There is a slight possibility that Clint might be the last season main villian. If so i would like it to have a build up and not be revealed until tha last two episodes or so, much like the stranger. I am anticipating a vengeance themed story here.
I completely forgot they were determinant characters. From that fact alone they're dead or gone for good.
Yeah it might turn out that way. I would get kind of excited though if one or the other turns out to be the main villian in the last season.
To echo the sentiments of most people here, I'd rather see Telltale focus on new villains for Season 4. I don't dislike ANF as much as some people do, but even I would be disappointed to see characters like Christa, Kenny, or Jane be dropped and/or go for multiple Seasons without seeing any resolution while Clint and Joan receive special treatment.
I am actually very intrigued by some of the concepts you are describing. I love the idea of the main antogonist being uncomforably close to AJ and there isn't much Clem can do about it. Though I would prefer for it to be a new more complex and interesting antagonist rather than Joan. If Telltale pulls off something like what you described the season would be amazing. It would be cool if the first two and perhaps part of episode 3 are about Clementine being forced to help the antagonist with various labor. During this time there is less of an emphysis on combat and more of an emphysis on being smart and picking good dialogue choices constantly being careful to not get caught lying.
That would make for some emotional scenes where AJ is being heavily influenced by the antagonist and there is basically nothing Clem can do about it.
That is really creepy but fits very well with the apocalyptic setting. It would make for some really creepy side villains and an overall darker season. Dark, but good story telling.
That could make for a good choice scenario. One of the nights Clementine can "Play along" and temporarily do as she is told or she can sneak out and try to gather information about AJ. If you choose to sneak out you can get a slightly better Idea about what is going on with AJ. Depending on how smart you are if you made that choice and tried to gather information you can make it back to the shack undiscovered or get caugh which results in extra labor and less rations the next day.
That could also be another good choice opportunity. After you take the first bite you can refuse to eat anymore. Joan obviously gets angry and a fight breaks out. Eventualy Clementine being the better fighter gets the upper hand and starts to beat up Joan but not after throwing a few punches Clementine is knocked out from behind by one of Joan's thugs this could be one of the creeps from the outposts.
This is very interesting and do keep writing you have some good ideas going.
Huh. Putting it that way, he doesn't seem as much of a bad guy. I still wonder what he would've done to Lee if Clem hadn't of come out of her room.
Gotta love how I basically said the same thing in the next reply.
True. I forgot about the whole diversion thing. But if you read the rest of my little story, you can see why I favor her more.
Edit: Goddamn it. Why did I try to make Joan a likeable character? I guess If I continued it, it could still go bad... But still, I basically tried to compare some things about Joan to Clem and started to make Joan look like what Clem could turn into if she went down that road. **A sith lord (bad mentor) to Anakin Skywalker (confused protagonist) kind of story... And Obi-wan would be Javier.
Yah. Just scraping the bottom of the barrel for ideas on how to end the season with a bang. I forgot that you don't need a lot of physical shit to happen to make an impactful story.
Hmmm. I have no Idea what that is, but I get what you mean.
Edit: Okay, Gotcha. Thanks again, @angrykurd.
He might be talking about Jesus...not the biblical one but the cool as fu*k one.
Oh. Thanks!
Np dude!
Hopefully neither of them is going to be the main antagonist for The Final Season. There still are some interesting roles they could play though.
This.
While @Zombiekiller3121 definitely drew an interesting connection that could serve to make Joan a great antagonist(albeit not quite the one she was initially shaping up to be), I'd rather we'd have either a villain that's actually more on Clementine's level and/or a Sorting Algorithm more along the lines of Season 1(and debatably, Season 2).
I think that considering the past Seasons and past antagonists, we need a character with the right complexity level to play the "villain" role in Season Four.
I think that considering the past Seasons and past antagonists, we need a character with the right complexity level to play the "villain" role in Season Four.
If you choose all the calm/apologetic lines, The Stranger will actually say "I'm glad this didn't have to get violent." at the end before Clem attacks him, so I honestly don't think he would've done too much.
True enough, I think.
This is what I would like TellTale to do with Joan/Clint if there is no major antagonist in The Final Season. It would be after Clem and AJ are reunited perhaps she stumbles upon something alerts her to Joan/Clint's plans of raiding New Richmond, which would cause the player to make a choice stay with AJ or risk her life and save New Richmond and along the way you can see the determinant characters in trouble and you have to save them or let them be killed off. Clem can also possibly stumble upon a pregnant Kate and Javier in trouble. Who would Clem save? The mother and child of Javier or Javier the man who helped her discover the location of AJ. I think TellTale can do a lot this season in terms of antagonists I just hope that they do not kill determinant characters at the start of the episodes and let choices matter so that we can keep them alive like we did with Conrad in A New Frontier.
Hey, just stopped by to share this with you.
Well, Thanks. I'll give it a read.
Edit: Admittedly, there are some pretty cringe moments in dialogue. And a few of the choices they make... But hey, at least they're being authentic to the source material.
Hah. Once you get to page ten it becomes funny how different they are from their original characteristics.
As soon as AJ said "Clabe" I stopped reading. I liked the first few parts of it, even though it was really unusual, but that crossed the line for me.
Thanks for sharing
You're welcome, I think.
I should note that I didn't actually read it myself, it just came up during a Google Search and I was reminded of you.