(Spoilers) Why it makes sense for Javier to side with Clem
Ok, so for the past few days I've been looking around the internet, reading people's reactions to the first two episodes of ANF and there's something that is bugging me: Clementine and how would Javier feel about her as opposed to how the player is reacting towards her.
I get where people are coming from, I do. This is a new character we're playing and as Javier, we just met Clementine. But as a player she's basically our daughter, so obviously our first instinct is to protect her and be nice to her and we look at her with fondness the moment we met her. Some people are ok with it and don't even hide the fact that "yes, I make all my decisions thinking of Clem and nothing more". But there are others who think this ruins the game because yes, while they are going to do everything in their power to protect Clementine, they feel like it takes away from the game because it stops making sense for someone like Javier to care for her. But let's stop and think about it, guys. I've said this before but I really wanted to start a new thread to make sure everyone reads it and because I want to know your opinions once you read what I'm about to say.
Let's put aside the fact that we, players, know who Clem is and what she's been through and let's try to look at her through Javier's eyes. I mean, if your Javier is someone who automatically is distrusting of strangers, then this whole post loses its meaning, because Clem or not, then your Javier doesn't trust Tripp, Eleanor, etc. So this stops being about Clementine anymore, and it's about you not trusting people you just met. But for those who like to give characters the benefit of the doubt and like to give them a chance, or if you're just like me and like to try and protect everyone, hear me out.
When he first meets her, she almost killed him, true. But he learns that she wanted to stop the truck so she could drive it herself, so it was not her intention to kill anyone. And the matter of the fact is, she saved his ass and prevented him to be taken by The New Frontier. She then acts suspicious (if Javier shoots the guy, she has more than reason to) and decides not to trust him and even threaten him if he tries anything. It's understandable. She's a kid, alone in the apocalypse, she's just being careful and trying to survive. She then steals from him, which yeah, it's not nice, but again, she's a kid, alone in the apocalypse, trying to survive. And she has the decency to put back the chocolate bar which makes Javier crack a little smile because at that moment he knew, she's not some heartless asshole. He doesn't directly ask for her help to get him back to the junkyard but she offers, sure, in exchange for their van, but hey, you got to do what you got to do to survive. If she would've offered to help without asking for anything in return (like Eleanor) then I would be totally suspicious of her intentions (I'm totally suspicious of Eleanor). He then finds out that she's been alone for a long time and that all the people she cared about died. If Javier isn't a complete asshole, then he would sympathize with her and understand why she's reacting to him the way she is. Nevertheless, she trusts Javier and cuts off his binds when running to Prescott. At that point, she showed to be a decent human being, despite being a kid that lost everyone and had to grow up in the apocalypse while being alone for a long time.
Then it comes the first decision you have to make related to Clementine. Eli and the bullets that don't work. Javier witnessed it himself so he knows she isn't lying. Clem almost got killed because of that and it could've put him in danger as well since he was with her. So at that point, it's no question Eli is a son of a bitch who sold bullets that weren't working to a damn kid. Then he tries to deny it and out of nowhere tries to kill Clem (and probably would've if Javier wouldn't intervene), while almost stabbing Javier's eye in the process. That should be enough to be on anyone's shit list. I personally wouldn't shoot him myself but Javier knows Clem didn't mean it and that it was an accident (even if she was being reckless by pointing the gun at him). When it comes to the decision of covering for Clementine or tell the truth here was my reasoning and why in this case, I think siding with Clem was the best option for JAVIER:
- It was an accident. It was done. Nothing they could do about it. There was no reason to throw a kid under the bus and defend an asshole who just tried to kill them both.
- It's the apocalypse, it's not the time or place to be self-righteous about things like this. It's dangerous.
- Javier doesn't know who these people are. Clem even says the people there aren't exactly her favorite. So God knows what they could do to her if he told them the truth.
- Clem was the person that was going to take Javier to the junkyard, back to his family. I don't see why Javier would risk having her restrained or worse, when he needed her.
So I don't see why it's hard to believe Javier (not the player) could easily cover up for Clem in this situation. Then the next decision. Going with your family after the shooting or stand and fight. Here's why I think it makes sense for Javier to stand and fight (therefore choose to stay with Clem). I'm not saying in this case it's the best choice, just that it makes SENSE for Javi and that it's NOT all about siding with Clem because it's Clem.
- Mariana was just shot in cold bold and he couldn't leave her behind.
- Javier is blinded by rage and the only thing he can think of is to kill the bastards (there's even a very good line where he can express that before making a decision).
- They showed they aren't the type of people to forgive and forget. They proved right there they weren't going to give up until they killed everyone. Would Javier really risk that? Or would he try to protect his family and end it right there?
- By staying, he can give his family time to make a run for it while covering for them.
- Let's not forget a kid offered to stay and fight them. If you chose to run away, she stays there on her own and buys you time to run away. Personally, I don't think my Javier would let a kid alone in a shooting with several grown men who just proved they have no problems with killing kids. And let's not forget she doesn't know these guys are from The New Frontier yet, so she didn't really have an ulterior motive there, she was genuinely trying to help you.
And finally, probably the most controversial choice, shooting Conrad. Ever since Francine's death, this guy went into crazy mode. The first fight with Javier is just a meaningless one but the starting of his downfall. Then he starts to show signs of being reckless and put everyone at risk, like shooting a damn shotgun in a tunnel filled with walkers. Then comes the moment where he truly loses it. Let's try to think why would Javier decide to shoot Conrad in that situation.
- Conrad has shown he is loosing control of himself. He no longer thinks about consequences and is taking rash decisions. He is a danger to the group.
- He points a gun at Javier, a 13 year old kid and his nephew.
- He then proceeds to threaten everyone and put Gabe at gunpoint because they are not agreeing with him and give in to his demands.
- If you don't make a decision, he shoots Gabe and Javier. Just like that. So he was being serious about his threats.
- He is willing to take a kid as a prisoner and deliver her on a silver platter to the same monsters who killed Mariana in cold blood.
- Javier has a clear shot of his head because Conrad is taller than Gabe, Javier is close to them and already aiming the gun at him in a steady position.
- If he doesn't take that risk and lets him live, not only does he have to agree to his plan of potentially sentencing a kid to death, slavery, torture, etc. but he also puts everyone at risk, not just his family, because later on Conrad can pull another stunt like that and actually kill someone and Javier might not be able to react in time.
So, having said that, why is it so hard for people to see Javier going for these decisions? What does it matter if players are only doing it because of Clem or because it makes sense for Javier? Or both?? It's their game, let them play the way they want and play the way you want. If you think none of those choices make sense for YOUR Javier, it's fine. If you don't want to side with Clem or trust her, don't. But stop saying how it's out of character, or how the "real" Javier wouldn't do that or how it doesn't make sense. Javier isn't a set character, you get to shape him how you want, you get to choose his motives, his reasoning. There aren't any right or wrong choices. Every choice makes sense for Javier, otherwise Telltale wouldn't put them there.
So yeah, I just wanted to let this out. Feel free to disagree.
Comments
I just realized the title is a bit weird and misleading (you can't edit it, can you?). What I'm try to say is how the "Clem decisions" also make sense for Javier and how it's not all about "siding with Clem because it's Clem". Hopefully I got my point across above.
Was literally considering making a thread on this, wanted to know how people chose to play Javier.
See Clem as a character you know from before, instantly befriend her.
Or see her as someone new to Javier & play it how you wish.
My first game I'm not even trying to play "in character.". I... just can't.
You've said this so well! I have made a save file where I do shoot Conrad and another where I take clementine to them as just curious to see what happens when episode 3 comes out, but Javier has a big heart and he would of helped clementine as he wouldn't trust them after what they've done to Mariana
Yeah, at the end of the day, it's about how you want to play as Javier. All choices make sense for him, it's a matter of which one you think it's best in each scenario. But people don't seem to see that. They think that choosing to side with Clem, automatically invalidates those options because "Javier just met her" and they fail to look at that the bigger picture because it's not all about Clem.
Yeah I agree with everything you've said here. Also if you think about it too, having taken care of his brother's kids for the last 4 years, and in particularly having a niece that does resemble/behave like a younger Clem in certain ways, that might play into how Javier treats Clementine also in those situations mentioned. That and just as an adult in a dangerous situation you're more likely to consider protecting the younger teens/kids. Conrad threatening to shoot a teenager and use the other as a bargaining chip to a group who might kill/punish or do gods know what else to Clementine [who's essentially been helping you out and saving your ass until then] doesn't sound like a good idea morally.
I do like though that new players with no knowledge of the previous games might go through these scenes or view them completely different than to older fans, and may not side with her as often, or fully trust her at first. For me, having played Season 1 and 2, with the Season 3 episodes, I was constantly getting that need of'I want to protect her' but at the same time there were dialogue choices where i was thinking, no, I don't want her to trust Javi too quickly, because I want her to be careful, even if I know he's a good guy. That and sometimes decisions involving family made it hard to decide sometimes.
Honestly, I'd love to hear from a newcomer on how they viewed these situations and made their decisions, just to see how they differed.
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Yeah, that too, forgot to mention it. I think a lot of people tend to forget that yes, Clem is a badass and knows how to protect herself, but she's still a kid that is about the same age as Javier's niece and nephew. So I don't see why he shouldn't get a bit protective of her too in some circumstances. Kind of like Kenny talking about the importance of "taking care of the kids" in season 1, even though Clem wasn't his daughter or that close to him.
Agreed 100%
The situations TT presented us with It wasn't exactly bad to choose Clem's side. It felt like an equal choice, even tho people's (including me) affection for Clem got in the way of our decisions but taking Clem's side made sense too. So people can't blame the fact the players love Clem, to argue that majority decisions were one sided (in Clem's favor).
I really appreciate someone is talking some sense
and I does almost all the desicion as yours and have the same reasons as yours
Except Shooting Conrad.
I still troubled to see many shot Conrad ( 90%/10% ) and keen on seeking the answer .
So... maybe express my point as starter.
First premise is we should
Think from Javi mind(which knowledge should sync with player at that point)
meaning :
Javi only can base on conjecture to decide.
Let say one possibility that Frontier will capture Clementine for example:
Say,
->Frontier will hold grudge on Clementine because she stole resource ,
->meaning devastating Frontier groups survival.
->Directly lead to death, very serious matter.
That give Frontier the right and eager to kill her in return.
And maybe Clementine **escape by running away.
Frontier haven't confront her, but still
eager to gain back resource or manpower.
Then, Frontier have solid reason to capture Clementine for some talk.
In other word,
The reasoning can be furthered by the chance of such possibility.
Traitor is normally not to be forgiven, because this is how "traitor" word suggest.
Well, how you suppose people act mercy in apocalyptic?
(Hell, nowaday society already not quite forgiving if you ask me.)
Then what is the odd Clem is forgiven?
I will say little-to-none.
But, chances Frontier hold grudge on Clem and want her back? QUITE HIGH!
->Then Clem ** is very likely being bargaining chip ** in Javi eye.
So this bargaining chip point is quite Solid for Javi,
P.S. With remark that because player should not know much about Clem is outcast by Frontier
Which lead to Clementine is not a solid bargaining chip.
(From Javier thinking stand point)
She is/was a member of Frontier , she is the bargaining chip(Traitor) for sure.(Explained as above)
IF she didn't come along,
(Well, Javier prioritize saving Kate's motive can be ：
anyway, Javier has utmost motive to save Kate at all cost
Because, Like @pinkytwist stated in Clem action in helping Javi, She need VAN to help Javi.
Same situation,
What Javi can provide except begging for mercy exactly?
While, Kate is injured, need helps from FRONTIER.
Then why FRONTIER will help Javi anyway?
Oh, dont forget Javi STEAL from FRONTIER,
FRONTIER hold grudge to Javi's group too
Then, Clementine in my book is necessary for gaining access.
So,my conclusion is:
* A solid bargaining chip is needed.If not, Kate will be in danger.
(From Conrad action's motive)
Conrad may show reckless and harsh,but that's only thing he did "seem" out of line.
Let suppose Conrad overheard whole "Clem is from FRONTIER" conversation,
Conrad know Clem will escape from FRONTIER while they seek help, meaning losing bargaining chip.
If think straight, That actually Javi Choices(bargaining chip plan),
(Conrad dont gain much:
Albeit, Conrad still insist helping Javi without any blunt motive.
This prove :
Just his way is too Harsh.(Pushing Javier to obey his plan)
So, why pointing the gun?
IF not, then you expect Conrad can confront Clem?
The minute Conrad confront Clem and tell her about Bargaining Chip
Clem will escape quite easily.
(Well, Clem will be good at escaping if consider she is 13 years old
and shown in Season 2 how great she is at escaping)
So,I insist all the reason pointing Conrad may harm people is false.
From the start Conrad just want to help Javi.
In addition,
Totally 4 People, include :
I mean, I understand that Conrad is hurt from Francise death,
therefore
However that is not relevant.
That bargaining chip plan is actually helping Javi's family
Why use this opportunity to kill Gabe(Javi's family)
then help Kate (Javi's family) ?
Complete mind blown.
So,My conclusion is:
P.S.:
Maybe I am just being too stupid to trust Conrad ?
( From circumstance stand point )
Well, I agree that if use Clem as bargaining chip may result in "death, slavery, torture"
Javi either risk Clem so-called "torture" or immediately kill Conrad for preventing a "Conjecture"
I will choose former
Why?Let think from the situation more clearly.
meaning actually Javi is risking whole group to fight if begging mercy is failed.
Althought it is a MAYBE,it need a backup plan.
There is where Conrad and Clem comes in.
If Javi shot Conrad, Javi's group instantly losing 2 strong fighter member
(Conrad dead, Clem escaped)
adding they may have a little "Fire Party",
What is the odd of dealing with FRONTIER you think?
If Javi didnt shot Conrad, Javi;s group stand a much better surviving chaces.
**Clem knows : **
(Although she may hate Javi , Still need to escape from FRONTIER, then she need Javi's group help )
This apply even after FRONTIER agree helping Kate(How can you be sure about FRONTIER rules?)
**Therefore,my conclusionis : **
* If Clem(Traitor) is being tortured, Javi group is likely to suffer the same(Javi stole Gas from FRONTIER),
* But If Clem comes along, Javi group stand a better chance to fight back.
Therefore,
*So, My Choice will stand solid on NOT shooting CONRAD at any given time.
If I am wrong , please enlighten me
.
I was mean to Clem for the first half of episode one for... story purposes???
@pinkytwist great post I know I am a bit late to the party but anyways. Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts on this topic!
I respect your choice. But I am confused by this. We learn that Clementine was exiled from The New Frontier during Episode 3 of A New Frontier. They did not want Clementine there. They had nothing to gain for bringing her to Richmond as a hostage (I fail to see a legitimate reason why they would want Clementine). I think that if the game was presented differently they would question why Clementine returned and would immediately send her on her way out of Richmond. So I think that although Conrad does not know the reasons and the extent of Clementine being exiled he wasn't thinking of what the New Frontier would do to Clementine. If he knew she was exiled I doubt that he would use her as bargain to get into Richmond
The way I played the Javier-Clementine dynamic was something like this:
I shot Rufus, mainly out of frustration at the current situation. Then when Clementine takes him hostage and takes Mariana's candy bar, he's naturally mistrustful of her. The way I see it, Clementine had no idea Javier was in the truck at the time, so letting him loose was pure coincidence, and she took advantage of it (later, at the junkyard, she says Javi still owes her a ride, if I had the option, I'd have said "I don't owe you shit"). If they gave me the option to try and run from her, I would have taken it.
Outside the Prescott gates, when one of Clem's bullets doesn't fire, a walker pins her to the gate. Going by the game's rules, Javier is supposed to shoot the walker in the head, which somehow doesn't kill it, and Clem stomps its' head in to finish it off. In-game, if you do nothing, Clem gets free and stomps the walker's head in anyway. Playing from Javi's POV, I do nothing in the hopes that maybe she'll be killed and I can get back to Kate, Gabe and Mariana on my own terms.
When it comes to Eli, it wasn't a matter of siding with Clementine or not, it was a matter of telling the truth or not. In and out of game, I figured telling the truth about what happened would be the best way to smooth things over. And Javi's already been through enough shit for one night without adding more to the heap.
At the junkyard, Javi stays at the junkyard more out in the hopes of killing the New Frontier shooters than helping Clementine.
With Conrad, I initially remain silent, not wanting to agree with Conrad's idea or provoke him more. Both Conrad and Clementine see this as Javi agreeing with the deal. Then when Conrad threatens Gabe, Javier shoots Conrad without hesitation. Essentially, Conrad makes up Javi's mind for him, just not in the way he thought.
However, despite all that, at the end of Episode 5, if given the choice, I would have begged Clementine to let me come with her instead of staying in Richmond with whichever ungrateful toerags survived the herd.
Oh woah
Thinking from the whole situation huh?
Alright,I can accept that as premise now.
I will use all episode in A New Frontier for reference.
Then, I will have to agree your point on Clementine is not bargaining chip, your reason on Conrad action is pointless sound.
Which does refute my point on Clementine is bargaining chip.
But that would create another problem.
Why Clementine want to escape from Frontier？
Clementine want AJ back and need leads for AJ.
AJ last seen in Frontier.
She should want the information from Frontier, why run away?
If Clementine never said about running away, Conrad need no interrupt anything.
(pointing gun at Gabe,Push Javi , etc)
Anyway, I would said all those need another discussion post,
A post about A New Frontier Story Plot.
Maybe you should open a new post, I am looking forward on that.
Thanks for pointing that out
As far as she knew she thought he had died from the illness that he had in the Episode 3 Flashback. During Episode 1 and 2 it was clear she despised them and viewed them as monsters for "killing AJ". However we and Clementine learn that he miraculously lived. Clementine was willing to take any risk no matter how costly in order to find out where AJ was and reunite with him. If we didn't find out that AJ was still alive during Episode 3 then Clementine would still be fairly hesitant to get involved with the New Frontier as she thought they took the last of her family and would still hold the spite that she had when she was exiled
You can pick almost any decision and Clem will say his instincts have been right most of the time.
Also, necromancer.
Yeah, Clementine does thought AJ is dead at episode 2, but that does not give her a 100% to hesitate.
She can be reveagous too.
AJ to Clementine is known as mother and her child.
If someone took mother's child, I bet that mother will be pissed off.
Same to Clementine.
Then Clementine would love to rush in and kill David
(Which in episode 3 is shown)
Where, of course, your point is valid at same time.
This trouble me to pin point Clementine motive
That's why telltale should fill us in if you ask me.
Well I don't mean to say this , but this is quite off topic. That's why I truly looking forward about you opening a post about your point.
Thanks!! And yeah we did go slightly off topic. I may open a discussion concerning this but I don't know this discussion seems like a decent spot for this topic to be talked about and not just between you and I. I appreciate your responses they were very well thought out!
Javi is known to be quite "persuasive" to those he interacts. It is just how he behaves that gives people the impression that he knows what he is doing (or so it seems to me)