There's a certain view I get from people who hate the idea of John and Bruce being romantic that seems to be an anger that anyone wants Telltale to add an option that wasn't already intended. But I just feel that that's such a misunderstanding of what the topic is about.
Because it's not a topic about adding an option to be romantic with John, but an examination on the interactions they have with the interpretation that there are already romantic undertones intended. Immediately when JohnxBruce is brought up there's a jump to "How dare you force telltale into doing this thing just to satisfy you?" Which is entirely not related to a thread which is basically "Let's talk about the writing which is already there, and what we think of it."
It's funny, because to the people who already think there's romantic undertones intended, it's the people that get angry at a romantic interpretation who are forcing Telltale to not include an option, rather than the other way around.
There's a certain view I get from people who hate the idea of John and Bruce being romantic that seems to be an anger that anyone wants Tell… moretale to add an option that wasn't already intended. But I just feel that that's such a misunderstanding of what the topic is about.
Because it's not a topic about adding an option to be romantic with John, but an examination on the interactions they have with the interpretation that there are already romantic undertones intended. Immediately when JohnxBruce is brought up there's a jump to "How dare you force telltale into doing this thing just to satisfy you?" Which is entirely not related to a thread which is basically "Let's talk about the writing which is already there, and what we think of it."
It's funny, because to the people who already think there's romantic undertones intended, it's the people that get angry at a romantic interpretation who are forcing Telltale to not include an option, rather than the other way around.
@mirashade ;; I understand how you feel, but lets not rile up anymore arguments again like earlier since I noticed @Ravereth 's post. But we're here to just discuss the relationship and not others who are against it, since that will just rile them up to start a fight. We're going to respect their opinion and not get upset about it, and continue on with our talk, thank you though for defending us.
Lets all continue to have a civil discussion. Thank you.
I suppose I'm not one to really get a great deal of enjoyment from romantic couples in general, which is why I'd rather argue that something should be allowed to be viewed as possible instead of having a discussion about the pairing itself. So, sorry.
I guess in the interest of non-argumentativeness though, I'll talk about all these lines that I feel like Telltale knew would appeal to a certain crowd when they wrote them. Hard to imagine they had no idea and no intention for interpretations to be anything non-platonic. From the very first "Are you in love with... Me?" which had me cracking up and bursting at the seams, and the "Bruce is strong, and smart, and handsome... Like, super handsome! It's nuts, you guys! ...What were we talking about again?" to the later Episode 5 lines involving the word "love" that almost felt too direct to pretend was pure friendliness, I just had the feeling they knew exactly where so many people would take that.
And personally, I dunno, it was just all an enjoyable ride to me, in the end. John is the best, and needs to be protected. I'm so glad Bruce still keeps up with him after everything they went through.
@Bandicoot88 I was wondering the same thing when I played that scene. I mean the game says "John will remember that" but it seems that the thing has been dropped, though i would have loved if they had dwelled into the matter. Maybe they will in S3, or at least I hope so.
I do actually have a question. Does anyone know where the "With me?" option comes into play, as in, when does it find its place when 'John w… moreill remember that'? I don't recall ever seeing a difference in picking that option, or another option, apart from the conversation obviously going differently there. It was never brought up to my knowledge. Unless you have to stack choices in order for something to happen? For example, I picked the "With me?" option, but I didn't pick the "We're good friends" that triggers the man-crush conversation, nor did I pick the "Be yourself" in the cafe scene. I feel that these are what pushes the relationship more, as opposed to not saying them.
Speaking of the cafe scene, while I didn't pick the "Be yourself" option in my original playthrough, I do love that scene, all the way down to Bruce's body language and expressions:
My first experience with the game was through Team Four Star's let's play, and the fact that that dialogue option existed was so hysterical and amazing to me, that it was actually probably the reason I bought the game.
Of course, in my main playthrough I knew he answered 'No', and thus didn't pick it for fear that when he inevitably went villain he'd use that against me and make fun of Bruce for having a crush on John(As was his interpretation of the scene). Which would be INCREDIBLY embarrassing. So I don't know if I should be disappointed or relieved that it seemed to be no big deal in the end.
I do actually have a question. Does anyone know where the "With me?" option comes into play, as in, when does it find its place when 'John w… moreill remember that'? I don't recall ever seeing a difference in picking that option, or another option, apart from the conversation obviously going differently there. It was never brought up to my knowledge. Unless you have to stack choices in order for something to happen? For example, I picked the "With me?" option, but I didn't pick the "We're good friends" that triggers the man-crush conversation, nor did I pick the "Be yourself" in the cafe scene. I feel that these are what pushes the relationship more, as opposed to not saying them.
Speaking of the cafe scene, while I didn't pick the "Be yourself" option in my original playthrough, I do love that scene, all the way down to Bruce's body language and expressions:
The villain path was packed with innuendo, and puns. I found the vigilante path slightly more emotionally devastating in regards to John and Bruce. The villain path was more well rounded for other characters.
ANYWAY if we get back onto the actual topic, which version did you guys find more romantic? The Vigilante or Villain? I personally loved the… more Villain fight.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=9F2WOtMqqRU&t=2596s
(starts at 46:23)
I mean yeah the obvious "you broke my heart" and "if you ever loved me" but I also loved the line "I'm the villain of your dreams", it sounded almost like "I'm the man of your dreams". The voice acting is so emotional and good, Anthony really does a fantastic job. And while they were fighting John's "Why so shy Brucie? Pucker up!" line was great.
@MelysBlossom and @Bandicoot88 You know, I think that would probably come into play in season 3, in maybe like a mention of it if you picked that option. I haven't really seen it come into play, unless there was something we missed? I would love to see that brought up one day if Joker is in S3;
@mirashade (It's okay don't worry about it) and LOL, yeah, I had actually burst out laughing too when I saw that option and just went with it. I do hope like I mention before that it comes back in S3 or any of the options really. I do want to watch Team Four Star, because I saw on tumblr how they were with John and I was like, same... I sort of want to go back and replay... I think episode 2 or 3 and have Selina in the icebox instead of myself. Because I want to explore the message parlor(?) with the pact. Or watch a playthrough of it maybe.
I personally found the villain route far more romantic in a really tragic way, seeing how it began and watching it turn so, so bad. Seeing how desperate John was to still make some sort of connection between him and bruce, even in a really negative way.
The voice acting seemed especially effective in that route as well. They all really excelled. Like at the dinner party when Bruce says he didn’t meant to hurt John and John shouts “I don’t care what you meant!” Oof! That got me right in the feels. He sounds so desperate during that moment. It was so well done.
They don't HAVE to be, no, but I could tell they served that purpose too. You have to remember, Joker as a character in general (as in not just this Joker) loves a good game. If you agree to being his best enemy, he gets all giddy and is like "hohoho, so that's a yes?" And he left Bruce a note about his Batsuit not being suitable for dinner. There's some speculation here that Joker might have even undressed and redressed him, though it's possible Joker got a goon to do that for him, but then killed him so that Batman's identify wasn't known.
Speaking of innuendos and such, someone uploaded some deleted audio files of Bruce and John, and one of them has John talking about how Batman's cape "just gets hard all by itself!?" before realizing what he just said: http://tehnazzy.tumblr.com/post/172069808242/im-dyin
There's also the "J and B, B and... you know where I'm going with this!" line he'll say later if you pick the "we'll still have each other" option in episode 4.
Anything can be an innuendo then. Not everything has a sexual or flirtatious meaning.
The only "Sexual" meaning is "pucker up"
"I'm on top and Stop me" didn't give off any sort of innuendos.
They don't HAVE to be, no, but I could tell they served that purpose too. You have to remember, Joker as a character in general (as in not j… moreust this Joker) loves a good game. If you agree to being his best enemy, he gets all giddy and is like "hohoho, so that's a yes?" And he left Bruce a note about his Batsuit not being suitable for dinner. There's some speculation here that Joker might have even undressed and redressed him, though it's possible Joker got a goon to do that for him, but then killed him so that Batman's identify wasn't known.
Speaking of innuendos and such, someone uploaded some deleted audio files of Bruce and John, and one of them has John talking about how Batman's cape "just gets hard all by itself!?" before realizing what he just said: http://tehnazzy.tumblr.com/post/172069808242/im-dyin
There's also the "J and B, B and... you know where I'm going with this!" line he'll say later if you pick the "we'll still have each other" option in episode 4.
Wait doesn't Bruce wear a suit under the bat suit? I'm pretty sure he does. In episode 1 in both seasons we can see him wearing the suit while he's in his lcassic business suite. So WRONG.
They don't HAVE to be, no, but I could tell they served that purpose too. You have to remember, Joker as a character in general (as in not j… moreust this Joker) loves a good game. If you agree to being his best enemy, he gets all giddy and is like "hohoho, so that's a yes?" And he left Bruce a note about his Batsuit not being suitable for dinner. There's some speculation here that Joker might have even undressed and redressed him, though it's possible Joker got a goon to do that for him, but then killed him so that Batman's identify wasn't known.
Speaking of innuendos and such, someone uploaded some deleted audio files of Bruce and John, and one of them has John talking about how Batman's cape "just gets hard all by itself!?" before realizing what he just said: http://tehnazzy.tumblr.com/post/172069808242/im-dyin
There's also the "J and B, B and... you know where I'm going with this!" line he'll say later if you pick the "we'll still have each other" option in episode 4.
I think for the most part, Bruce is mostly bare skinned underneath the Batsuit, as I distinctively recall him removing the Butsuit to reveal just that. However, before heading to the church and then Ace Chemicals, Bruce is seen wearing a normal shirt and trousers before changing into his Batsuit. When he wakes up though on the cart, he's in a suit. Someone changed him, or at least put more clothing over his existing clothes. Spouting "wrong" like that isn't helping... sounds like you're in denial about a lot of things here. I have a feeling this thread isn't for you, as we don't want it turning into a mess again.
I think for the most part, Bruce is mostly bare skinned underneath the Batsuit, as I distinctively recall him removing the Butsuit to reveal… more just that. However, before heading to the church and then Ace Chemicals, Bruce is seen wearing a normal shirt and trousers before changing into his Batsuit. When he wakes up though on the cart, he's in a suit. Someone changed him, or at least put more clothing over his existing clothes. Spouting "wrong" like that isn't helping... sounds like you're in denial about a lot of things here. I have a feeling this thread isn't for you, as we don't want it turning into a mess again.
Yes, I do recall that moment. Like I said, I think usually he's happy to just dress in his Batsuit, because I can only imagine how hot it would be with clothes on too. But he can't have that privilege every time.
Yes, I do recall that moment. Like I said, I think usually he's happy to just dress in his Batsuit, because I can only imagine how hot it would be with clothes on too. But he can't have that privilege every time.
He does normally where a suit underneath his bat suit, but something interesting to point out (and it could have been Telltale just making an error in clothing files) is that when Bruce puts on the bat suit in the Villian episode, he is wearing his classic white shirt and dark grey pants. But when he wakes up in the tunnel of love thingy, hes dressed in an entirely different suit which raises the question of "what the heck? Who changed him into a suit that was exactly his size while unconscious?".
So did Telltale accidentally miss that? Or did John steal a suit in Bruce's size, undress his batsuit and clothing straight to his boxers, and then re-dress him in the new suit he got?
Wait doesn't Bruce wear a suit under the bat suit? I'm pretty sure he does. In episode 1 in both seasons we can see him wearing the suit while he's in his lcassic business suite. So WRONG.
I think John takes Bruce's Batsuit and puts on the black suit seen in the last chapter with Selina. When you're sitting in the cart getting transported to Selina there's a note in the cart saying "Your other suit wasnt appropriate for dinner, wanted to keep our little secret ours" (Since Harley doesnt know that you're Batman, only John knows)
He does normally where a suit underneath his bat suit, but something interesting to point out (and it could have been Telltale just making a… moren error in clothing files) is that when Bruce puts on the bat suit in the Villian episode, he is wearing his classic white shirt and dark grey pants. But when he wakes up in the tunnel of love thingy, hes dressed in an entirely different suit which raises the question of "what the heck? Who changed him into a suit that was exactly his size while unconscious?".
So did Telltale accidentally miss that? Or did John steal a suit in Bruce's size, undress his batsuit and clothing straight to his boxers, and then re-dress him in the new suit he got?
GUESS WE'LL NEVER KNOW
Are you sure he's not usually naked (except for boxers) under the Batsuit? I remember a lot of scenes where Bruce will take off the top half of his suit, revealing cuts and such on his chest. Like when Bane nearly killed him, and even back in season 1 when Selina was taking it off to see to his shoulder wound. I don't really care what Bruce decides to do personally, I just remember him being bare chested after arriving at the Batcave. Still, we still know he gained a suit when he woke up on the cart, so there's that.
Speaking of the dinner party, I picked up on this look Bruce gives John:
It's a split second, but he'll look at Harley, then at John, then back at Harley. It's a stretch when I think about it actually, but I still think it could be a sign if John is really going to let this happen. Whatever the case, there's literally an option to pull at John's heartstrings, causing John to stop Harley.
If you do nothing, Bruce will still give John a look, causing John to attempt to stop Harley, but fails:
A lot of people chose to rat John out about the bombs, but I chose this option instead, because I couldn't not pick it. It's there as an option for Bruce to acknowledge his importance to John, and he's right, John doesn't really want to kill him, and that he is more important than Harley (if you pick the bomb option). Though we already knew Harley was less important in episode 4 when John was willing to take her down. She's second best or a more realistic choice, compared to someone of Bruce's Wayne caliber.
We've talked a lot about the villain ending, but the vigilante ending has some gems too:
John's forced to halt because of the helicopter as he approaches Bruce. Unknown what he was gonna do, but he instantly smiles when Bruce says he's not alone, as in he has someone else with him. Somewhat vague what's going on, but I like to dream.
John asking Alfred about Bruce's childhood and how he'd haunt the guy if he died, among other things. Second video is just a piece of the conversation I missed out. John is certainly inquisitive. I love this scene so much.
Video of Bruce being defensive as Alfred begins to ask him a question he isn't able to finish (very likely about love, but it's meant to be ambiguous, but it seemed obvious to me where the conversation was going). It shows that Bruce is blind, unwilling to let go, and irrational instead of seeing the truth ("I can still save him" option only).
Batman when John loses it, and Batman, as a persona, generally doesn't show much emotion other than anger.
It's very clear that Bruce has a close connection to John, whether it be just be very strong, or something more. And if you're kinda mean to John in the vigilante ending, these scenes don't change either, with the exception of the "I can still save him" conversation, which is unique to that choice.
Don't know if it has been mentioned before (sorry I'm lazy) but that moment in the villain route where Harley strangles John for not getting over Bruce is very telling..
I find it funny how in the scene where you can rat out John to Harley, or tell him "John please, dont let her kill me!", if you choose to do nothing, John will still try to stop her, but she detonates it anyways even when John doesn't have a mask on knowing full well if he breathes in the virus he'll die like the rest of them. She literally never gave a shit about him. She even does it if you choose an option, and John still doesn't have a mask on after shes finished strangling him but she pushes it anyways.
It's true, Harley never really cared for John, not before, not now. John hadn't even put on the mask the first time and she nearly detonated it before John stopped her. It seems like she doesn't want to wait around. I mean... she might care somewhat? In the results, it says she was heartbroken that Bruce meant more to John than her, if you pick the "Please stop her, John!" option, whereas the other option says she goes into a fit of rage. Either way, she makes it very clear that Bruce is more important To John.
"You chose him over me!?"
"You're never going to get over him, are you!?"
Honestly, she tried to kill him, and yet he's like "can't we kill and make up?" I don't really understand the logic here... but then again, John will still try to kill Bruce during the dinner fight, but I know he doesn't really want to either? It's possibly a result of him not really knowing what he's doing, because in the showdown, he will look sad/shocked if he kills Bruce.
I haven't read all the posts but, regarding the interpretation of the subtext between the two characters, I think at best it can be described as ambiguous.
It can also be interpreted as a friendship. But, there were times that the emotional reactions of the two men were just too deep to simply be shrugged off as a simple friendship. I think the reactions of both characters also touches on the traditional connection and dynamic of Batman and Joker.
John Doe saw a darkness in Bruce that interested him deeply. And I think that this Bruce might have also intuitively seening it in John Doe. Batman mostly does this when fighting or thinking about Joker in the normal canon.
They both share a connection, a dark one. The two of them understand each other at a level that no other character in their many universes does, and this is the main reason why they are the perfect nemesis of each other. To the two of them, they are the only true equals of the other. In both wits and spirit.
Where Batman is perseverant, the Joker is relentless. Where one is brilliant, the other is astute. And they both share a deep hatred of the dark side of the human nature around them. It can also be said that the two of them share the same type of madness. A deep obsession. They just go about it in opposite directions. Batman is our modern Sherlock Holmes; the Joker is his Moriarty.
The vigilante path highlighted their different view of the world perfectly. You can see that to the Joker, “justice” has a completely different meaning to the simplistic moral view of Batman. To Joker, there is no such thing as an “innocent” person. While Batman, understands that people aren’t completely evil. You can see that when Joker kidnaps Amanda Waller, he doesn’t seem to care if she does “good” things or not.
He is very angry at her for accusing him of being a murderer, but he also sees Amanda Waller as a vile woman that takes on anything she pleases because she has the power to do so and disposes of other people’s lives she seems unworthy. In Joker’s eyes she was the true villain. He even tells her that if he is bad, she is worse than him, making Joker the hero. Normally, in the canon, Joker also sees himself as a victim of cruel human nature. And he understands that Batman is also a victim of random cruelness. He knows that Batman was born from a “bad day” just like he was. And I’m glad that Telltale left this “connection” between them intact.
But I also love that in this game, that connection is even deeper. Here, you can interact with the most human Joker we ever seen, and even “fall in love” with the character as many of us did. Their traditional “sexual innuendos” are the most lighthearted of all versions too (Excluding Lego Batman). And the Joker of this universe has very conflicted feelings regarding Bruce. It can be interpreted in many ways. It could be an idolization, or a romantic infatuation. John is very confused himself, he doesn’t understand what he wants or feels. He only knows that Bruce and him, are “two threads from the same stitch”. And he is not going to let that go away. This could also be interpreted as someone finding their soulmate… or their long-lost twin.
Even at the ending of the game, Joker wasn’t going to accept a “rejection” from Bruce. If you tell him that you wished they never met, Joker cries a little bit, before hatefully stabbing you in the gut. He also refuses to accept that what Bruce’s says are his true feelings saying, “we will be together until the end of times”. I interpreted that as a metaphorical truth to their endless dynamic in the real world, though.
The way Bruce feels however, is completely up to the player. We can roleplay Bruce as feeling that same mad obsession too, or simply assure people like Alfred that we are only using John. Or deny our feelings. The dialogue is to open to have a definitive answer there. But I think that denying the “romantic” undertones is just not reading past the dialogue in some scenes. Sometimes, the dialogue is meaningless when you have a building context and a strong emotion in place.
But I personally believe that we have a case of “romantic friendship” trope here. Is ambiguous enough to be seen in both sides, as friendship or as something deeper. I find it very interesting regardless.
I seen some people say that Joker and Batman “loving” each other is very “creepy” but I think that is exactly the appeal. Is not your typical “romance” and is not meant to be pretty or happy. It could be a very scary and twisted one. Or a deeply sad and hopeless one.
Yet, John and Bruce relationship on this game is mostly a funny and tragic love story. And that is great
I think that in regards to the the way Harley and John interact, is not very different from their other abusive relationship counterparts in the comics. Joker have tried to kill Harley many times, and they still "make up" despite that.
Here, Harley finds John interesting and useful, and then she kind of became fond of him later on when he transformed into the Joker. But Harley still cares about herself more. She is very selfish in this universe.
Joker is..well, crazy and despite loving Bruce more, it dosen't mean he wont kill him in a quick fight. He has a twisted love-hate relationship with Batman and he is in pain. And I also think that he himself feels Bruce shouldn't be killed by no one else that isn't him. He wants to be the one that ends Bruce's life. Batman dosen't belong to anyone else, but to him. Joker is very possesive, even in that.
If you are too slow to stop him from killing Selina, he shoots you in the head. And he dosen't looks remorseful at all. Yet, in their final fight, if Joker kills Bruce while stabbing him in the neck, he looks surpised and remorseful.
Joker changes his feelings on a whim. He is crazy. You could also interpret it as Joker being very jealous of Selina, so he shoots you in the head for trying to stop him. And in the final fight he is "remorseful" for killing you when he only wanted to "dance" with you. So he is "surpised" that you didn't know the "moves" on your shared tango of death.
It's true, Harley never really cared for John, not before, not now. John hadn't even put on the mask the first time and she nearly detonated… more it before John stopped her. It seems like she doesn't want to wait around. I mean... she might care somewhat? In the results, it says she was heartbroken that Bruce meant more to John than her, if you pick the "Please stop her, John!" option, whereas the other option says she goes into a fit of rage. Either way, she makes it very clear that Bruce is more important To John.
"You chose him over me!?"
"You're never going to get over him, are you!?"
Honestly, she tried to kill him, and yet he's like "can't we kill and make up?" I don't really understand the logic here... but then again, John will still try to kill Bruce during the dinner fight, but I know he doesn't really want to either? It's possibly a result of him not really knowing what he's doing, because in the showdown, he will look sad/shocked if he kills Bruce.
It's true, Harley does run back to Joker, though I understand it's also the reason she leaves for Poison Ivy? At least in some incarnations (I don't know how many). With a submissive Harley though, she isn't torn between two people, whereas Joker in this game is, which is why I had some confusion as to why he's essentially running back. Though I could put this down to Joker not really knowing what he wants, as you say, it's all whim-based, but he does stall for time to end Bruce's life. He hasn't planned it out properly.
I think that in regards to the the way Harley and John interact, is not very different from their other abusive relationship counterparts in… more the comics. Joker have tried to kill Harley many times, and they still "make up" despite that.
Here, Harley finds John interesting and useful, and then she kind of became fond of him later on when he transformed into the Joker. But Harley still cares about herself more. She is very selfish in this universe.
Joker is..well, crazy and despite loving Bruce more, it dosen't mean he wont kill him in a quick fight. He has a twisted love-hate relationship with Batman and he is in pain. And I also think that he himself feels Bruce shouldn't be killed by no one else that isn't him. He wants to be the one that ends Bruce's life. Batman dosen't belong to anyone else, but to him. Joker is very possesive, even in that.
If you are too slow to stop him from killing Selina, he shoots you in the head. And he dos… [view original content]
There are also a lot of dialogue lines that have been cut, that showed that the romantic interpretation is actually more likely to be possible and that highlighted John's feelings towards Bruce even more
Yes, I mentioned one of them above, although that was more of an accidental innuendo on John's part talking about how hard Batman's cape is. He does talk about how Bruce loves him, having his heart broken, and even a line of Bruce being oddly demanding/protective of John when it comes to drinking, telling the bar tender that John can drink how much he wants, whenever he wants, before ordering them to clean down some glasses. He's quite the dick honestly, but it's still funny to listen to.
You can find them all here (bless this user for uploading these, some of these are fantastic): http://tehnazzy.tumblr.com/tagged/mysoundclips
When I even dared to suggest making it an option I got a bunch of derailing comments and the thread got closed. Totally not salty...
In all seriousness I think it's completely up to the player to interpret it. You can see it as romantic or really close friends. Either way it's still a really compelling dynamic. The two really caring about each other despite how twisted and unhealthy it might be.
SO! It's been a while but former Batman Telltale director confirmed on Tumblr that John was written bi. I do believe the only reason why he was not a full romance option and only queer coding was because DC is a coward
SO! It's been a while but former Batman Telltale director confirmed on Tumblr that John was written bi. I do believe the only reason why he was not a full romance option and only queer coding was because DC is a coward
Comments
I love the dialogue in both versions! Whilst I prefered the Vigilante.. Joker looked smokin' in the villain! Seriously wow!
There's a certain view I get from people who hate the idea of John and Bruce being romantic that seems to be an anger that anyone wants Telltale to add an option that wasn't already intended. But I just feel that that's such a misunderstanding of what the topic is about.
Because it's not a topic about adding an option to be romantic with John, but an examination on the interactions they have with the interpretation that there are already romantic undertones intended. Immediately when JohnxBruce is brought up there's a jump to "How dare you force telltale into doing this thing just to satisfy you?" Which is entirely not related to a thread which is basically "Let's talk about the writing which is already there, and what we think of it."
It's funny, because to the people who already think there's romantic undertones intended, it's the people that get angry at a romantic interpretation who are forcing Telltale to not include an option, rather than the other way around.
Ok, let me examine this one for You - You are seeing things that are not really there.
@mirashade ;; I understand how you feel, but lets not rile up anymore arguments again like earlier since I noticed @Ravereth 's post. But we're here to just discuss the relationship and not others who are against it, since that will just rile them up to start a fight. We're going to respect their opinion and not get upset about it, and continue on with our talk, thank you though for defending us.
Lets all continue to have a civil discussion. Thank you.
Yeah that's what the topic is about.
I suppose I'm not one to really get a great deal of enjoyment from romantic couples in general, which is why I'd rather argue that something should be allowed to be viewed as possible instead of having a discussion about the pairing itself. So, sorry.
I guess in the interest of non-argumentativeness though, I'll talk about all these lines that I feel like Telltale knew would appeal to a certain crowd when they wrote them. Hard to imagine they had no idea and no intention for interpretations to be anything non-platonic. From the very first "Are you in love with... Me?" which had me cracking up and bursting at the seams, and the "Bruce is strong, and smart, and handsome... Like, super handsome! It's nuts, you guys! ...What were we talking about again?" to the later Episode 5 lines involving the word "love" that almost felt too direct to pretend was pure friendliness, I just had the feeling they knew exactly where so many people would take that.
And personally, I dunno, it was just all an enjoyable ride to me, in the end. John is the best, and needs to be protected. I'm so glad Bruce still keeps up with him after everything they went through.
@Bandicoot88 I was wondering the same thing when I played that scene. I mean the game says "John will remember that" but it seems that the thing has been dropped, though i would have loved if they had dwelled into the matter. Maybe they will in S3, or at least I hope so.
My first experience with the game was through Team Four Star's let's play, and the fact that that dialogue option existed was so hysterical and amazing to me, that it was actually probably the reason I bought the game.
Of course, in my main playthrough I knew he answered 'No', and thus didn't pick it for fear that when he inevitably went villain he'd use that against me and make fun of Bruce for having a crush on John(As was his interpretation of the scene). Which would be INCREDIBLY embarrassing. So I don't know if I should be disappointed or relieved that it seemed to be no big deal in the end.
edit: replaced a word to be more accurate
The villain path was packed with innuendo, and puns. I found the vigilante path slightly more emotionally devastating in regards to John and Bruce. The villain path was more well rounded for other characters.
@MelysBlossom and @Bandicoot88 You know, I think that would probably come into play in season 3, in maybe like a mention of it if you picked that option. I haven't really seen it come into play, unless there was something we missed? I would love to see that brought up one day if Joker is in S3;
@mirashade (It's okay don't worry about it) and LOL, yeah, I had actually burst out laughing too when I saw that option and just went with it. I do hope like I mention before that it comes back in S3 or any of the options really. I do want to watch Team Four Star, because I saw on tumblr how they were with John and I was like, same... I sort of want to go back and replay... I think episode 2 or 3 and have Selina in the icebox instead of myself. Because I want to explore the message parlor(?) with the pact. Or watch a playthrough of it maybe.
I personally found the villain route far more romantic in a really tragic way, seeing how it began and watching it turn so, so bad. Seeing how desperate John was to still make some sort of connection between him and bruce, even in a really negative way.
The voice acting seemed especially effective in that route as well. They all really excelled. Like at the dinner party when Bruce says he didn’t meant to hurt John and John shouts “I don’t care what you meant!” Oof! That got me right in the feels. He sounds so desperate during that moment. It was so well done.
They don't HAVE to be, no, but I could tell they served that purpose too. You have to remember, Joker as a character in general (as in not just this Joker) loves a good game. If you agree to being his best enemy, he gets all giddy and is like "hohoho, so that's a yes?" And he left Bruce a note about his Batsuit not being suitable for dinner. There's some speculation here that Joker might have even undressed and redressed him, though it's possible Joker got a goon to do that for him, but then killed him so that Batman's identify wasn't known.
Speaking of innuendos and such, someone uploaded some deleted audio files of Bruce and John, and one of them has John talking about how Batman's cape "just gets hard all by itself!?" before realizing what he just said: http://tehnazzy.tumblr.com/post/172069808242/im-dyin
There's also the "J and B, B and... you know where I'm going with this!" line he'll say later if you pick the "we'll still have each other" option in episode 4.
k fine
Also where's that sopeculation about john doing that? BECAUSE THATS WRONG
Wait doesn't Bruce wear a suit under the bat suit? I'm pretty sure he does. In episode 1 in both seasons we can see him wearing the suit while he's in his lcassic business suite. So WRONG.
I think for the most part, Bruce is mostly bare skinned underneath the Batsuit, as I distinctively recall him removing the Butsuit to reveal just that. However, before heading to the church and then Ace Chemicals, Bruce is seen wearing a normal shirt and trousers before changing into his Batsuit. When he wakes up though on the cart, he's in a suit. Someone changed him, or at least put more clothing over his existing clothes. Spouting "wrong" like that isn't helping... sounds like you're in denial about a lot of things here. I have a feeling this thread isn't for you, as we don't want it turning into a mess again.
In Episode 1 we see him wearing the suit while wearing his clothes. I doubt he got naked in some random alley then went on to wear the suit.
Yes, I do recall that moment. Like I said, I think usually he's happy to just dress in his Batsuit, because I can only imagine how hot it would be with clothes on too. But he can't have that privilege every time.
Also didn't mean to be rude with saying WRONG.
(Edited post, was replying to a banned user.)
Sorry, it just came across that way to me. I apologize.
He does normally where a suit underneath his bat suit, but something interesting to point out (and it could have been Telltale just making an error in clothing files) is that when Bruce puts on the bat suit in the Villian episode, he is wearing his classic white shirt and dark grey pants. But when he wakes up in the tunnel of love thingy, hes dressed in an entirely different suit which raises the question of "what the heck? Who changed him into a suit that was exactly his size while unconscious?".
So did Telltale accidentally miss that? Or did John steal a suit in Bruce's size, undress his batsuit and clothing straight to his boxers, and then re-dress him in the new suit he got?
GUESS WE'LL NEVER KNOW
I think John takes Bruce's Batsuit and puts on the black suit seen in the last chapter with Selina. When you're sitting in the cart getting transported to Selina there's a note in the cart saying "Your other suit wasnt appropriate for dinner, wanted to keep our little secret ours" (Since Harley doesnt know that you're Batman, only John knows)
Are you sure he's not usually naked (except for boxers) under the Batsuit? I remember a lot of scenes where Bruce will take off the top half of his suit, revealing cuts and such on his chest. Like when Bane nearly killed him, and even back in season 1 when Selina was taking it off to see to his shoulder wound. I don't really care what Bruce decides to do personally, I just remember him being bare chested after arriving at the Batcave. Still, we still know he gained a suit when he woke up on the cart, so there's that.
Speaking of the dinner party, I picked up on this look Bruce gives John:
It's a split second, but he'll look at Harley, then at John, then back at Harley. It's a stretch when I think about it actually, but I still think it could be a sign if John is really going to let this happen. Whatever the case, there's literally an option to pull at John's heartstrings, causing John to stop Harley.
If you do nothing, Bruce will still give John a look, causing John to attempt to stop Harley, but fails:
A lot of people chose to rat John out about the bombs, but I chose this option instead, because I couldn't not pick it. It's there as an option for Bruce to acknowledge his importance to John, and he's right, John doesn't really want to kill him, and that he is more important than Harley (if you pick the bomb option). Though we already knew Harley was less important in episode 4 when John was willing to take her down. She's second best or a more realistic choice, compared to someone of Bruce's Wayne caliber.
We've talked a lot about the villain ending, but the vigilante ending has some gems too:
John's forced to halt because of the helicopter as he approaches Bruce. Unknown what he was gonna do, but he instantly smiles when Bruce says he's not alone, as in he has someone else with him. Somewhat vague what's going on, but I like to dream.
John asking Alfred about Bruce's childhood and how he'd haunt the guy if he died, among other things. Second video is just a piece of the conversation I missed out. John is certainly inquisitive. I love this scene so much.
http://bandicoot88.tumblr.com/post/172333568276/yes-i-did-listen-to-everything-joker-had-to-say
http://bandicoot88.tumblr.com/post/172596690138/i-was-pointed-out-that-i-actually-missed-a-piece
What even is this face? It's tender as heck.
Video of Bruce being defensive as Alfred begins to ask him a question he isn't able to finish (very likely about love, but it's meant to be ambiguous, but it seemed obvious to me where the conversation was going). It shows that Bruce is blind, unwilling to let go, and irrational instead of seeing the truth ("I can still save him" option only).
http://bandicoot88.tumblr.com/post/172300188260/me-what-al-in-love-with-him
Looking at pics of John.
Batman when John loses it, and Batman, as a persona, generally doesn't show much emotion other than anger.
It's very clear that Bruce has a close connection to John, whether it be just be very strong, or something more. And if you're kinda mean to John in the vigilante ending, these scenes don't change either, with the exception of the "I can still save him" conversation, which is unique to that choice.
Don't know if it has been mentioned before (sorry I'm lazy) but that moment in the villain route where Harley strangles John for not getting over Bruce is very telling..
I find it funny how in the scene where you can rat out John to Harley, or tell him "John please, dont let her kill me!", if you choose to do nothing, John will still try to stop her, but she detonates it anyways even when John doesn't have a mask on knowing full well if he breathes in the virus he'll die like the rest of them. She literally never gave a shit about him. She even does it if you choose an option, and John still doesn't have a mask on after shes finished strangling him but she pushes it anyways.
It's true, Harley never really cared for John, not before, not now. John hadn't even put on the mask the first time and she nearly detonated it before John stopped her. It seems like she doesn't want to wait around. I mean... she might care somewhat? In the results, it says she was heartbroken that Bruce meant more to John than her, if you pick the "Please stop her, John!" option, whereas the other option says she goes into a fit of rage. Either way, she makes it very clear that Bruce is more important To John.
"You chose him over me!?"
"You're never going to get over him, are you!?"
Honestly, she tried to kill him, and yet he's like "can't we kill and make up?" I don't really understand the logic here... but then again, John will still try to kill Bruce during the dinner fight, but I know he doesn't really want to either? It's possibly a result of him not really knowing what he's doing, because in the showdown, he will look sad/shocked if he kills Bruce.
LOL.
People still discussing this, eh?
I haven't read all the posts but, regarding the interpretation of the subtext between the two characters, I think at best it can be described as ambiguous.
It can also be interpreted as a friendship. But, there were times that the emotional reactions of the two men were just too deep to simply be shrugged off as a simple friendship. I think the reactions of both characters also touches on the traditional connection and dynamic of Batman and Joker.
John Doe saw a darkness in Bruce that interested him deeply. And I think that this Bruce might have also intuitively seening it in John Doe. Batman mostly does this when fighting or thinking about Joker in the normal canon.
They both share a connection, a dark one. The two of them understand each other at a level that no other character in their many universes does, and this is the main reason why they are the perfect nemesis of each other. To the two of them, they are the only true equals of the other. In both wits and spirit.
Where Batman is perseverant, the Joker is relentless. Where one is brilliant, the other is astute. And they both share a deep hatred of the dark side of the human nature around them. It can also be said that the two of them share the same type of madness. A deep obsession. They just go about it in opposite directions. Batman is our modern Sherlock Holmes; the Joker is his Moriarty.
The vigilante path highlighted their different view of the world perfectly. You can see that to the Joker, “justice” has a completely different meaning to the simplistic moral view of Batman. To Joker, there is no such thing as an “innocent” person. While Batman, understands that people aren’t completely evil. You can see that when Joker kidnaps Amanda Waller, he doesn’t seem to care if she does “good” things or not.
He is very angry at her for accusing him of being a murderer, but he also sees Amanda Waller as a vile woman that takes on anything she pleases because she has the power to do so and disposes of other people’s lives she seems unworthy. In Joker’s eyes she was the true villain. He even tells her that if he is bad, she is worse than him, making Joker the hero. Normally, in the canon, Joker also sees himself as a victim of cruel human nature. And he understands that Batman is also a victim of random cruelness. He knows that Batman was born from a “bad day” just like he was. And I’m glad that Telltale left this “connection” between them intact.
But I also love that in this game, that connection is even deeper. Here, you can interact with the most human Joker we ever seen, and even “fall in love” with the character as many of us did. Their traditional “sexual innuendos” are the most lighthearted of all versions too (Excluding Lego Batman). And the Joker of this universe has very conflicted feelings regarding Bruce. It can be interpreted in many ways. It could be an idolization, or a romantic infatuation. John is very confused himself, he doesn’t understand what he wants or feels. He only knows that Bruce and him, are “two threads from the same stitch”. And he is not going to let that go away. This could also be interpreted as someone finding their soulmate… or their long-lost twin.
Even at the ending of the game, Joker wasn’t going to accept a “rejection” from Bruce. If you tell him that you wished they never met, Joker cries a little bit, before hatefully stabbing you in the gut. He also refuses to accept that what Bruce’s says are his true feelings saying, “we will be together until the end of times”. I interpreted that as a metaphorical truth to their endless dynamic in the real world, though.
The way Bruce feels however, is completely up to the player. We can roleplay Bruce as feeling that same mad obsession too, or simply assure people like Alfred that we are only using John. Or deny our feelings. The dialogue is to open to have a definitive answer there. But I think that denying the “romantic” undertones is just not reading past the dialogue in some scenes. Sometimes, the dialogue is meaningless when you have a building context and a strong emotion in place.
But I personally believe that we have a case of “romantic friendship” trope here. Is ambiguous enough to be seen in both sides, as friendship or as something deeper. I find it very interesting regardless.
I seen some people say that Joker and Batman “loving” each other is very “creepy” but I think that is exactly the appeal. Is not your typical “romance” and is not meant to be pretty or happy. It could be a very scary and twisted one. Or a deeply sad and hopeless one.
Yet, John and Bruce relationship on this game is mostly a funny and tragic love story. And that is great
I think that in regards to the the way Harley and John interact, is not very different from their other abusive relationship counterparts in the comics. Joker have tried to kill Harley many times, and they still "make up" despite that.
Here, Harley finds John interesting and useful, and then she kind of became fond of him later on when he transformed into the Joker. But Harley still cares about herself more. She is very selfish in this universe.
Joker is..well, crazy and despite loving Bruce more, it dosen't mean he wont kill him in a quick fight. He has a twisted love-hate relationship with Batman and he is in pain. And I also think that he himself feels Bruce shouldn't be killed by no one else that isn't him. He wants to be the one that ends Bruce's life. Batman dosen't belong to anyone else, but to him. Joker is very possesive, even in that.
If you are too slow to stop him from killing Selina, he shoots you in the head. And he dosen't looks remorseful at all. Yet, in their final fight, if Joker kills Bruce while stabbing him in the neck, he looks surpised and remorseful.
Joker changes his feelings on a whim. He is crazy. You could also interpret it as Joker being very jealous of Selina, so he shoots you in the head for trying to stop him. And in the final fight he is "remorseful" for killing you when he only wanted to "dance" with you. So he is "surpised" that you didn't know the "moves" on your shared tango of death.
Enjoyed the read @Katanas.
It's true, Harley does run back to Joker, though I understand it's also the reason she leaves for Poison Ivy? At least in some incarnations (I don't know how many). With a submissive Harley though, she isn't torn between two people, whereas Joker in this game is, which is why I had some confusion as to why he's essentially running back. Though I could put this down to Joker not really knowing what he wants, as you say, it's all whim-based, but he does stall for time to end Bruce's life. He hasn't planned it out properly.
Joker mentions the "two threads in the same stitch" a few times. I think it is the equivalent of "two peas in a pod". Does this sound right?
Yeah. Cool catch.
There are also a lot of dialogue lines that have been cut, that showed that the romantic interpretation is actually more likely to be possible and that highlighted John's feelings towards Bruce even more
Yes, I mentioned one of them above, although that was more of an accidental innuendo on John's part talking about how hard Batman's cape is. He does talk about how Bruce loves him, having his heart broken, and even a line of Bruce being oddly demanding/protective of John when it comes to drinking, telling the bar tender that John can drink how much he wants, whenever he wants, before ordering them to clean down some glasses. He's quite the dick honestly, but it's still funny to listen to.
You can find them all here (bless this user for uploading these, some of these are fantastic):
http://tehnazzy.tumblr.com/tagged/mysoundclips
When I even dared to suggest making it an option I got a bunch of derailing comments and the thread got closed. Totally not salty...
In all seriousness I think it's completely up to the player to interpret it. You can see it as romantic or really close friends. Either way it's still a really compelling dynamic. The two really caring about each other despite how twisted and unhealthy it might be.
SO! It's been a while but former Batman Telltale director confirmed on Tumblr that John was written bi. I do believe the only reason why he was not a full romance option and only queer coding was because DC is a coward
This is cool.