Would Mike and Bonnie be justified in leaving the group if they just left on foot w/o taking a thing
I really think it's sad how things escalated. If you think about a group with Bonnie, Luke, Mike, Kenny, Jane and Clem, that competes with even the early core TWD group on TV in the first and second seasons. That would be quite a force had they gotten along.
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And had Luke lived, I don't think Bonnie leaves. I don't know about Mike.
I'd definitely say yes. Mike just couldn't deal with Kenny anymore and wanted to get Arvo away from him as well, with Bonnie tagging along as well.
I wouldn't even mind them taking one or two bags for the road, considering they were the Russians' property anyway and that's visibly all they really took.
The issue is really that they were gonna take Arvo's truck and probably leave a kid and a recently born baby behind with Kenny and Jane.
The issue for me is not so much leaving Clem and AJ, but taking the food and vehicle, basically leaving them to die. Although I like them both, I find that incredibly heartless. I mean, go on your own, but don't do that.
Yeah the last episode was horribly written....Bonnie would not have done that..and I doubt Mike would have either. They just had no idea how to cut down the cast to lead up to the finale fight.
Well, I don't know if it's out of character for Mike. We didn't know much about him, but I can see Bonnie doing it. She stayed with Carver for the food and protection although she knew he was wrong. I always thought Bonnie was just about survival. And now that Luke was dead, she didn't have any emotional ties to the group. Mike seemed to focus on Arvo's safety so it seemed he was leaving basically for his sake.
No that is not how I see Bonnie....nor really Mike, Mike was distressed over the abuse that Kenny was heaping on Arvo...he would not leave an 11 year old to those tender mercies. I mean here is the thing...if they wanted to get rid of Mike and Bonnie...have them try to kill Kenny...have Clem discover it and then have Arvo decide to shoot Clem...you have the same outcome, but in a way that actually makes more sense.
But Kenny didn't hit Clem and Mike knew she and Kenny were very close.
No he only yelled and screamed at her and blamed her for Sarita's death...oh and elbowed her in the face if you try and stop Kenny from beating Arvo.
They would...but that would mean letting two characters leave the cast and still walk out with some level of dignity they had left in the finale.
If anything, this is an example of what I believe is wrong with No Going Back as a whole. Character conflicts in this episode are both artificial and biased, which results in characters acting out-of-character to create poorly thought out drama.
Bonnie and Mike reasonably opposes Kenny's highly illogical plan to find Wellington, and are shown to be concerned with how Kenny is more than happy to gamble on everyone's lives to waste fuel and resources on a save haven no-one knows at the time existed, in the middle of a terrible snowstorm with very little shelter to protect everyone from the cold.
Bonnie and Mike are then shown to be in the wrong for going against this plan, because the two suddenly and inexplicably decides to rob Kenny and everyone else as they slept. They can't just simply leave in the middle of the night, oh no! They have to turn traitor and go out of their way to try and take everything and leave with the truck that Kenny repaired, while also taking Kenny's hostage with them to boot!
Just...why? Why was this necessary? The only explanation that I can come up with to justify Bonnie and Mike's 'betrayal' is that the writers had wanted to push the Kenny vs Jane conflict in the finale, which was already contrived enough as it is, and to justify Kenny's actions and behaviour throughout No Going Back.
They could of had a couple of them get killed in the shootout like Michael and Bonniella. But they might of been looking to do some great betrayal looking scene all along.
Eh, I guess that's an inherent part of it, but that's really not any different from any other character if so.
Honestly, Bonnie always seemed like one of those people who genuinely mean well and just want something good/comfortable to be a part of, but they have a bad habit of choosing the wrong people to side with, leading to her and/or the people around her being disappointed and hurt. I don't wanna say it's explicitly anything like a battered spouse syndrome, but it can definitely be compared to that.
Plus, even as the collective narrative and Carver himself do little to nothing to convince anyone but the deluded and the enduring otherwise, it is fairly safe to assume that if she amongst others continued to stick by Carver even with her underlying misgivings, not to mention the fact that she's a member of his Inner Circle, then he clearly wasn't always that despotic, psychotic, and egomaniacal.
I think the problem is...and I believe you and I talked about this before...the fact is that we really do not know what Carver's group and Carver himself were like in the beginning. He was regulated to 2 dimensional villain by the time we got to him...It does seem they had plans to make him a more sympathetic character if the trailer was any indication..with him and Clem standing on the roof and she was actually smiling as he was talking.
Good point.
I really enjoyed season 2, but I can't argue with this.
Of course! Even if they only like took some supplies, just enough for themselves, that they would have gotten anyway, I’d be alright with it.
It’s a shame it’ll went down like that.
This.
And by "everything," we mean like one or two bags out of what's implied to be at least six.
I think I remember Bonnie mentioning "I got the last bag" if she did not die drowning in the frozen lake.
Other than that, it has been a long time since I've seen No Going Back, so my memory is a little fuzzy.
Bonnie is one of the worst characters in twd. She betrayed Clem twice and constantly put her in danger.
Okay, it seems I misunderstood something. Jane does actually bring one bag out and says there was another. Additionally, Bonnie does say she got the rest of it when she comes up.
Well, ain't dat some shit.
Well i actually agree with you, it’s a miracle. It’s true that they were clueless on how to get rid of the characters before the end conclusion
Which was an accident, Clem stupidly (determinant) put herself in harms way anyway.
If Mike and Bonnie had just left on foot, even taking a few supplies, for me that would have been
just fine. But taking everything and the truck was downright shitty of them. And trusting Arvo as they did was as stupid as it gets
Those were Arvo's supplies. Arvo's truck. Which the group decided became theirs for some reason. So they were justified in taking them either way. Still hate that I was on the other side of the deal though. Fuck them all.
With Kenny being a dickhead towards everyone, I don't blame them for leaving, so had they just left on foot, it would've been justified. Mike and Bonnie weren't obligated to stay with them. As a matter of fact, they helped aid in their escape from Howe's hardware. However, the right thing to do would've been to have taken only some supplies. After all,The group did have a baby with them. Hell, if it were me and Mike's/Bonnie's position, and felt I couldn't stand Kenny anymore, I would've done the same damn thing. I would've told Clem "Look you can come with us if you want, but you're not gonna stop us from leaving."
Actually, she was smiling with Bonnie in the scene afterwards.
Well first: Arvo's group of buff AK and shotgun wielding thugs probably robbed all that shit in the first place seeing as they had a well thought out plan of ambushing our group and then demanding our stuff even when they found out we had a starving infant, and second: the supplies automatically became ours when Arvo failed to take what belonged to us and offered to give us everything his group had in exchange for his miserable life.
Except Arvo was coerced into the ambush after his group found he was trying to flee with his sister, as confirmed by a dev here on these forums.
Every fibre of my body disagrees with what you just said. Even when Clementine tells Jane to give Arvo his sh*t back, she does it. Then the russians tried rob to them after returning their stuff, and shot at them first. If anything, Arvo owed them all that he and his russian friends had for sparing his life.
Considering the episode was written by like five people, I wouldn't put such a factual value on what one dev said. Besides, I don't really care if he was forced into it or not, to me he looked way too happy to exact his little revenge on us after what Jane did to him - even if he was given the medicine back. So fuck him. He's lucky his life was spared, which only happened because he promised us the supplies. So it doesn't really change the situation.
Exactlyyyyyyyyyyyyy
Actually, those bags were the same as the ones given out at Wellington.
Arvo, Natasha, and Vitali actually do alert Buricko(the bald leader with the tattoos) with this and were trying to get him to back down, but he refused to listen and persisted in arguing with Kenny.
That wasn't really the deal, but whatever.
She still keeps his gun though and sends him off defenseless on what we learn was a relatively long trek back home.
Reused models. Also could have robbed from people that were turned down at Wellington. You really think they'd give supplies to such a populous and armed group? They'd shoot them on sight.
And then they all started shooting at us. Aaand after Buricko got his brains blown out, Vitali vowed to kill every last one of us. And I get that he was his friend, but he should have done more to stop him.
Well tell me what the deal was then. Whatever's not good enough. I doubt Kenny would have backed down if he had no reason to keep Arvo alive.
There were indeed a number of signs indicating that that was the case, whether it be him trying to stash away the medicine in the recycle bin and eventually deciding to try to find another spot if Clementine stays hidden or him straight up telling Jane that it belongs to his sister(who does prioritize getting it back in one of her few lines) or Buricko instructing him what to do with the group and repeatedly shooting down any attempts to stall or make a deal with them.
Plus, another fun fact about the ambush was that it wasn't one initially: Arvo was supposed to come running out of the woods with the other two on his tail and would bump into the group.
Eh, I guess maybe if you sided with Jane on the medicine, but even that clearly has him be visibly reluctant in having to go through with it.
And? lol he couldn't shoot for sh*t. He's better off without it.
Yeahhh but..........everything...worked out up until he.....met them again...?
Well that's his goddamn fault, if he goes out wondering with a ton of survival essentials on his own, he should expect that most strangers are going to be willing to kill him for that. And in the case of said strangers returning every bit of the medicine, he should have the bloody human decency to not try to rob us of everything we have and keep his mouth shut. Besides would you give back a gun to someone you just threatened and attacked? What's stopping him from shooting us right then and there? Taking his shitty revolver is one of the few smart things that Jane has done.
Jane was justified, you point a gun at an 11 year old in my group....you would not survive....Jane was merciful in that situation.
Forgot to post this due to a connection error
True, but considering their location and Wellington's policy, it's also entirely plausible.
There were seemingly only two bags [left?], after all.
A populous group of four people, two of which are sick and handicapped,? Yes, they would. It's what they were doing with all groups after they went over capacity.
Actually, no they wouldn't. Maybe if the Russians tried to aggress, but that's clearly not how Wellington operates then or in ANF.
Remember that they only came after the group when Jane took Arvo's gun and wanted to determinately take Natasha's medicine too. If they were really gonna kill or even rob the group from the word go, they would've just done it and Buricko would've have had to tell Arvo what to say.
More like they thought Clementine/Kenny shot at them and Buricko opened fire in retaliation. Natasha and Vitali got shot by Kenny(?) as a result.
Eh, to be fair, everyone was just kinda got into several different pissin matches at that point.
To be fair, shooting a little girl at point blank range is a whole different ball game from fending for your life against walkers and the occasional bandit/scavenger.
Idk if Arvo was trying to kill clem, but if so, from POINT BLANK range, he did a horrible job. She was right there. Even Nick shot better than him. If he couldn't even kill Clementine from as close as he was, then he definitely wouldn't be able to handle a walker and the average bandit