We Should Save Harley Quinn From Waller. (Vigilante)
Dammit I can't be the only one that feels a little bit regretful with betraying her. How things turned out for Harley, is simply not right. Waller is using Harley as a slave for her dirty works, for her murders while she is on borrowed time before her mental illness starts to kick in like it did to her father (He eventually committed suicide by his illness).The will to live does not justify murder, nothing does, however it makes it understandable in a sad way. I mean to go through all of this alone must be demanding and challenging. She did not have someone like Alfred next to her. I think inside of her, there is a good,old part sealed away or not allowed to be revealed by the world around her because she needs to be what she is now in order to survive(Aka being a freacking murderes badass). So! If we where to find her a cure we would take away the one thing that drives her, that makes her bad and commit crimes right? She is relentless on her quest to find her cure so imagine the void that needs to be filled when we take that away? Then again she did murder alot....but so did my bro John....and....Tiffany... Ghaaa this is deeper then Dark Souls Loreeeee. Ughh so many shades of grey....... my mind needs a reboot.........and Irish Coffee....with pancakes.
Does anyone feel the same? That saving her is right thing to do? I'd like to believe Harley has her humanity left within like Bruce has his evil within. Acknowledging that proves Bruce is not full of himself like Waller says he is.
Comments
Desperate times bring out one's true colors.
Harley murdered, stole, betrayed, etc for a "cure" that in the end it would have had an even worse effect on her than her illness. That "humanity" you're claiming she has hardly mattered for the decisions she made, she even blew up a bridge. There is no forgive and forget with that she did, is either prison or what Waller does. Saving her would never be the right thing to do, and right for whom? the people she murdered? herself? it might be merciful but not rightful.
In my book being merciful is the rightful way. Careful fella, you might break Batmans code
Oh please, Batman's code is the fancy way of saying "I don't kill", and he killed a lot of people, directly and indirectly.
And there is no killin here, leaving Harley in prison is justice and let Waller use her in a suicide squad doesn't break the code at all.
Sorry but Batman has not killed anyone.
Depends how you view it and how you play, if we just stick to Telltales Batman then sure, he does not directly kill anybody but there are a lot of choices that pretty much can sentence some people to a guaranteed death even if it is not from the direct hands of Batman/Bruce. (The agents at end of episode one, the guy who helped us in episode 3, the staff at Sanctus if you went as Bruce...)
He does also give a death sentence to Lucius Fox even if he did not know it I would still say he killed him indirectly.
On the topic:
I never really felt bad for Harley, she opened up a little bit at episode two but other than that she has not really given us a lot of hope of something better from her. She is unstable and has no real limit of what she will do to achieve her goals. I think the only way to "save" her is to keep her locked up somewhere safe for her and others.
I would not be surprised if she will return in a potential season three though... I have a few ideas about how The Agency will return also and I think they will be connected in one way or another.
Oh come on, seriously? Fuck Harley.
She didn´t have any redemption going for her, unlike most of her portrayals, here she clearly is sane enough to understand all the horrible things she and the others are doing. There is a lot of dialogue with Bruce where it´s painfully obvious that she is completely aware of how fucked up she is, and still decides to go along with it. In the villain ending, she is willing to kill hundreds or even thousands of innoccent people just so she can cure herself. She puts herself above everyone else.
I would go as far to say that she is the less sympathetic member of the Pact. Even Riddler had an actual mental problem because of the lotus virus to justify why he is an horrible person, and Bane seems to have at least a sense of honor.
I like that you completly ignore "Vigilante" in the title
. I know my opinion might be unpopular but....how is being aware of the bad things one do a bad thing? It just proves that she has a understanding of what's good and what's bad. It's essentially what John struggles with in the Vigilante path. I really don't agree with how you see things, it matches a hell lot more with the "Villain" path.
Actually, if you know something is bad, and you do it anyway, is way worse than having some twisted view of seeing what you're doing as good or right. She's willingly doing something morally wrong and she doesn't show any regret, in fact, she enjoys it.
And it is kinda awkward that you base her whole humanity in a conversation in which she could be lying, since she just met you and clearly doesn't trust you, specially if you make choices against her.
First, why do you completely ignore the villain episode, like if the Harley we see there isn´t the same character? Everything that happens in a Telltale Games can be "canon", yet you seem to try to forget about that branch just so you don´t have to accept all the horrible things she does in the other path. Harley isn´t a different or better person in the vigilante finale. She would still murder hundreds of innoccents with a deadly virus if she could. For God´s sake, she bombs a hospital full of people. Only reason that doesn´t happen, it´s because you prevented her from doing it with your choices. Villain episode isn´t a "what if" scenario, it´s what actually happens when you let her have enough power to do what she wants. So yeah, she is still an horrible person when she is working with the Agency. Batman may not know what she does in the the other path, but we as players do, and that´s enough to discuss her suppossed good nature (not that Bruce would need her to bomb hospitals to see how horrible she is).
Second, you really have a very weird concept of morality if you think her knowing she is a bad person speaks good of her. You think knowing the difference between good and evil and choosing the second, it´s better that not being able to make a choice? People like Harvey and John have mental problems that they can´t control. Harley is sane enough to decide what she wants. When she kills someone, it isn´t a voice in her head or a physotic outburst that forces her. I think you are going to be pretty alone trying to defend that being aware of how fucked up she is makes her better. It only shows that she doesn´t really care about morality.
So yeah, your defense makes not sense. Harley is the same character in both endings so ignoring what she does in the villain branch doesn´t make her better. And she knowing the difference between evil and good kjust makes worse and MORE irredemeable. Harvey and John could find a cure and that´s it, she in the other hand just wants to do all the bad stuff.
She is not the same person in Vigilante and Villain nor is Bruce,Catwomen,Waller,(especially )John etc. There is something called character development.
"You think knowing the difference between good and evil and choosing the second, it´s better that not being able to make a choice?"
Yes! Obviously yes holy shit mate what's that for a question? What your implying is insane mate! To not be aware of the evil things one do is the most inhuman thing I could think of. Jesus man.....
There isn't any "character development" for her between episode 4 and 5. The only difference in the vigilante ending is that she hates John and is working for Waller. Only circumstances change, not her personality. There is literally nothing that indicates she wouldn't do the same stuff of the villain branch if she could. You trying to paint her as a different person it's just a lame attempt to ignore all the evil stuff she does when she escapes at the bridge, wich clearly shows how little she cares about others lifes..
And seriously, dude? What kind of concept of morality do you have? Are you telling me that Harvey, for example, is worse because he can't see the evil he does because of his split personality that takes over him? Despite not being his fault that he has a mental sickness?
And about the whole thing with telling the difference between good and evil... What you are defending it's just so ridiculous and morally wrong, and I am going to explain it just one more time:
Being able to tell the difference between good and evil and choosing the latter DOESN'T make you good, it makes you WORSE, because you don't have any excuses for your acts. There is a reason for why a cold blooded killer gets higher penalties that and insane criminal. She knows she is a terrible person, and still decides to embrace it. She doesn't feel any remorse. Harley just doesn't care about being an horrible human being.
Harvey and John never chose to become pshycopaths and ruin lifes, they were forced by a mental sickness that didn't allow them to understand what's wrong with their actions. Riddler can't stop being an obsessed pshycopath because his brain was permanently destroyed by a virus.
Harley doesn't have any excuses, she is one of the sanest villains in the series. She is a criminal because she wants to, she kills people because she wants to, and knows perfectly that's wrong. And she still doesn't care.
So yeah. Your point is absurd. Her knowing she is doing something wrong just makes her harder to change. Harvey would have chosen to be a good person, but couldn't because of his disease. If he could get cured, he would become good again.
Harley can't be cured. She isn't sick, she just chose to become a criminal, knowing full well what she was getting into. Wich tells a lot of how much she values other persons.
Can we agree to disagree? You're starting to freak me out.
I guess you don't know how to defend something that was wrong for the start, can't blame you for not being able to answer and deciding to flee. My argumentation must be very scary for you.
Whether or not you feel compelled to 'save' any of them from Waller, honestly depends on your Batman/Bruce Wayne. The situation the Pact is left in - as abused slave labor to a corrupt branch of justice - does in fact make me want to 'save' them from Waller, but not Harley alone.
Reviewing the recordings from the Agency, and Riddler's own words about them - The Agency is every bit of a threat and unworthy of protection as John Doe and Riddler proclaim. That doesn't mean I agree with the 'kill them all' method of deconstructing the Agency, but I'm not blind to the fact that some of these people are actively torturing others, conducting experiments on their brain functions, and if it kills them just retrieving another like livestock until something works.
Do I honestly think Harley Quinn could be rehabilitated? Extremely doubtful. She might have her own personal reasons for trying to save her sanity, but I suspect she likes the control her current lifestyle offers her. Much like Catwoman, I don't believe she could ever give that up entirely.
It's hard to debate with someone that sees sociopaths and psychopaths as more human then others being evil/bad. Horrible dictators like Hitler,Stalin.Kim jong un all thinks what they are/where doing is anything but bad or evil oh no they where doing gods work in their wicked mind. You LITRALLY get a option in the game when speaking to Joker that "Awareness is a start" to teach him what it means to be a hero. To have a understandment of what's good and what's bad IS A GOOD THING and if you don't see it that way...well...that's fine! I have no one that I know of that agrees with you, nor any famous literature. Hell Jordan Petterson even says that the victims of trauma are not at fault, but that acknowledging this fact doesn't really solve the issue for them! One should be the better person and look for the solution to end the victums suffering.
Not to mention that you just plain ignores facts like claming "She isn't sick" and refuse to stick to the Vigilante path. That and you're mostly just being an ass xD
"I guess you don't know how to defend something that was wrong for the start, can't blame you for not being able to answer and deciding to flee. My argumentation must be very scary for you."
Really? You felt the need to write that? Waow.....love you to man.
It's your problem if you think someone opposing your view point with solid argumentation equals to being "an ass". Actually, I never insulted you. You did that now, and it's pretty obvious you don't like to discuss.
And you are now bringing up dictator with fanatical views like if I ever talked about them. I always used examples from the game, the fact you never answered to those clearly shows how weak your argumentation is.
Again: According to your views, Harvey Dent is worse that Quinn. I doubt anyone will agree with you on that.
Oh... And by the way... Go on and check the legal systems all around the world, you might be surprised to find out criminals with mental problems and difficulties to distinguish between good and evil get less penalties. You are on the minority here, no matter how much you claim otherwise.
You say that I was wrong from the start even tho it's MY opinion. -> Opinion <-
Then you say it can't be helped becuase I'm not able to awnser you? Therefor I flee because your arguments are so strong It's scarry for me....ughhh and you find my reaction to all this "insulting"....now that's irony.
"I guess you don't know how to defend something that was wrong for the start, can't blame you for not being able to answer and deciding to flee. My argumentation must be very scary for you."
You tangle my words, you disregard facts,throw low blows and claim that I have said things I have not etc "You are on the minority here, no matter how much you claim otherwise." HA! What the hell is that? Did you not remember the first thing I told you? "I know my opinion might be unpopular but...."
Thanks for ruin my thread! I wanted clairvoyance to my thoughts but this is just deeply unsatisfying. Unlike others, you really don't care at all what I have to say and shit on me for trying to accept our differences... lovely
If any Telltale Staff Member or Moderator sees this pls take this thread down. It's not a civil anymore nor does it go anywhere.
The Original Poster has requested the thread be locked, so I will lock it.