I don’t know how many times it needs to be said, but being gay, or being queer, or being bi, or being straight doesn’t matter. It doesn’t make a character better or worse. It doesn’t add depth, it doesn’t add personality, and it doesn’t add any complexity to a character.
I don't know in which way you meant this, but while being gay doesn't matter in a moral sense (as in it's not a moral or immoral thing) it's bizarre to think that it doesn't matter in a practical sense and that it shouldn't affect fictional narratives sometimes.
Being gay by itself isn't a personality trait, but growing up gay, for a lot of people, will greatly shape many aspects of their lives. There's nothing wrong with writing fiction that addresses these topics, and a lot of times it can be used to add depth and complexity to a character.
(I'm also not saying all narratives that feature gay characters need to also feature "the gay traumatic past™" or anything of the sort, just that there's nothing inherently wrong of a narrative to do so).
As for the Clem book thing, unless Clementine encounters someone openly homophobic, or has retained some memories of pre-apocalypse stuff, I don't know how they'll bring it up without it feeling jarring. I'd wait and see before passing judgement, hopefully it's not vapid as it sometimes tends to be.
So Skybound had some sort of panel today with Tillie Walden going over some stuff in regards to the Clementine Lives comic and Clementine: B… moreook One graphic novel for next year. I did not watch it live, and this info is being given by someone who did, but here's what I can gather.
There will apparently be a focus on Clementine's past, which could actually be pretty interesting. Would have preferred a comic that didn't involve Clementine abandoning everyone she cares about, but this still yields some interesting growth opportunities. Could play a role in why Clem feels unhappy, maybe learn how to deal with traumatic parts of the past to appreciate the present and the time you have/people around you, culminating in a return to Ericson's and AJ. I've said for years there's some deep rooted survivor's guilt concerning Lee and others, so if this is the direction it goes, it could be good to see if executed properly.
What has my red flags goin… [view original content]
I don’t know how many times it needs to be said, but being gay, or being queer, or being bi, or being straight doesn’t matter. It doesn’t make a character better or worse. It doesn’t add depth, it doesn’t add personality, and it doesn’t add any complexity to a character. What a character is should not matter, but who a character is, their actions means more than who they are attracted to. And this applies to the real world too, being gay doesn’t define you, being straight doesn’t define you, etc.
… I’m sure this won’t bite me in the ass but I’m gonna have to strongly disagree with this.
While I agree that the sex/gender of the person you’re attracted to doesn’t exactly equal a personality, I think it’s a bit ignorant to say that a person being gay, bisexual, or queer doesn’t matter or that it can’t add anything to a character. Especially nowadays where more and more people are becoming more comfortable in coming out, it’s important that there be people, regardless if they’re fictional or not, to look up to. There are so many people, as well as kids, trying to figure themselves out and having media that addresses these kinds of topics can be a big help. Not every piece of media about a minority needs to be all about how they’re a minority, but to believe that it shouldn’t even be a thing is a bit foolish. Especially when there are still so many parts of the world that are actively trying to fight against and even kill people for not being “normal.”
As for how it’ll play out in the graphic novels, I have no fucking clue lmao, but I’m willing to wait and see how it plays out. If it’s done right then cool, if it stinks then oh well.
So Skybound had some sort of panel today with Tillie Walden going over some stuff in regards to the Clementine Lives comic and Clementine: B… moreook One graphic novel for next year. I did not watch it live, and this info is being given by someone who did, but here's what I can gather.
There will apparently be a focus on Clementine's past, which could actually be pretty interesting. Would have preferred a comic that didn't involve Clementine abandoning everyone she cares about, but this still yields some interesting growth opportunities. Could play a role in why Clem feels unhappy, maybe learn how to deal with traumatic parts of the past to appreciate the present and the time you have/people around you, culminating in a return to Ericson's and AJ. I've said for years there's some deep rooted survivor's guilt concerning Lee and others, so if this is the direction it goes, it could be good to see if executed properly.
What has my red flags goin… [view original content]
In the context of TWD, where every day is focused on survival and the daily challenges in doing so because of the consistent threat of death from walkers, other humans, starvation, exposure to the elements, disease, lack of supplies, and emotional trauma, I’d say no, I don’t think being queer, at least for Clem, will have a huge impact. Like I said, she didn’t have any reservations about being in a relationship with Violet, she just accepted it as a normal thing that people experience, and that should be how it’s seen and viewed as. It didn’t become an overarching part of her character journey, nor should it have been.
In some contexts, perhaps yes, it could. I can imagine a coming out story for a character growing up someplace like the Middle East, where religious, cultural, and judicial structures still result in homosexuality being punished with stoning and death, could be a decently interesting narrative and journey for a character. But here, with Clem, I don’t see it. And in most contexts, I still don’t see it as something that should be an essential part of a person’s character. Western culture and audiences have generally been far more accepting of queer characters and people, not perfect, but certainly much more than other parts of the world. And in a universe where people are more centered on how they’re going to survive, who another person chooses to love is not at the forefront of most individuals and communities. Kenny didn’t seem to care about Walter and Matthew’s relationship, and he’s sort of portrayed as a stereotypical Floridian/redneck. Doesn’t he also have a line of how one great thing about the apocalypse is no longer having to deal with politics.
TWD universe has always been a world very accepting of queer characters, so this isn’t really any new ground the series is walking on here. What I’m worried about is exactly what you said, I just don’t see how they will address it without being jarring. Look, obviously, this is my two cents, and people are free to disagree with me if they think I’m looking at it too myopically. I just want a good story that can hopefully justify the Clementine Lives comic and make me proud to be a Clementine fan again.
I don’t know how many times it needs to be said, but being gay, or being queer, or being bi, or being straight doesn’t matter. It doesn’t ma… moreke a character better or worse. It doesn’t add depth, it doesn’t add personality, and it doesn’t add any complexity to a character.
I don't know in which way you meant this, but while being gay doesn't matter in a moral sense (as in it's not a moral or immoral thing) it's bizarre to think that it doesn't matter in a practical sense and that it shouldn't affect fictional narratives sometimes.
Being gay by itself isn't a personality trait, but growing up gay, for a lot of people, will greatly shape many aspects of their lives. There's nothing wrong with writing fiction that addresses these topics, and a lot of times it can be used to add depth and complexity to a character.
(I'm also not saying all narratives that feature gay characters need to also feature "the gay traumatic past™" or anything of… [view original content]
It's the apocalypse, zombies don't give a shit if you're straight, gay or whatever so I don't see why they have to make this into a huge plot point for Clementine when in all the seasons, she was never seen struggling with her sexuality and it seems like they're just gonna toss away Louis and Violet and pretend that it never happened so they can ship her off with some new character and the evil twins bit which brings to mind Sophie and Minerva, this sounds like Tillie Walden just wants to write her own version of season 4 and reboot Clementine by disregarding all the choices, her character development and cut ties with AJ and the cast that was involved in it so they can have a reason to continue her story that was finished 2 years ago.
I just don't get what the long-term plan is for this graphic novel trilogy, is Clem just gonna spend all her time with the group of teenagers in Vermont in nearly all these novels cause if AJ and the rest of the kids from Ericson's couldn't make her happy, how will this group make her happy, what can they give her that the last group couldn't? More attention?
The more I hear about this novel, the more I'm losing my faith in it cause the only reason they are making this is for money and nothing else.
So Skybound had some sort of panel today with Tillie Walden going over some stuff in regards to the Clementine Lives comic and Clementine: B… moreook One graphic novel for next year. I did not watch it live, and this info is being given by someone who did, but here's what I can gather.
There will apparently be a focus on Clementine's past, which could actually be pretty interesting. Would have preferred a comic that didn't involve Clementine abandoning everyone she cares about, but this still yields some interesting growth opportunities. Could play a role in why Clem feels unhappy, maybe learn how to deal with traumatic parts of the past to appreciate the present and the time you have/people around you, culminating in a return to Ericson's and AJ. I've said for years there's some deep rooted survivor's guilt concerning Lee and others, so if this is the direction it goes, it could be good to see if executed properly.
What has my red flags goin… [view original content]
This. Nothing can impress me anymore with cliches of the modern era like subverting expectations, sequels that rehash ideas from previous entries, establishing the LGBTQ+ on characters, forcing agenda and everything in between. Not even 5 years later and I already hate this new decade.
It's the apocalypse, zombies don't give a shit if you're straight, gay or whatever so I don't see why they have to make this into a huge plo… moret point for Clementine when in all the seasons, she was never seen struggling with her sexuality and it seems like they're just gonna toss away Louis and Violet and pretend that it never happened so they can ship her off with some new character and the evil twins bit which brings to mind Sophie and Minerva, this sounds like Tillie Walden just wants to write her own version of season 4 and reboot Clementine by disregarding all the choices, her character development and cut ties with AJ and the cast that was involved in it so they can have a reason to continue her story that was finished 2 years ago.
I just don't get what the long-term plan is for this graphic novel trilogy, is Clem just gonna spend all her time with the group of teenagers in Vermont in nearly all these novels cause if AJ and the rest of… [view original content]
This. Nothing can impress me anymore with cliches of the modern era like subverting expectations, sequels that rehash ideas from previous en… moretries, establishing the LGBTQ+ on characters, forcing agenda and everything in between. Not even 5 years later and I already hate this new decade.
Saying you're happy to with work with an lgbt protagonist and that you can explore "what it means to be queer in the apocalypse" can mean almost anything but everyone is jumping to conclusions.
It is so briefly said and so vague there is no reason to be so "worried" about it. I also wouldn't saying Clem being queer means it should have 0 importance with the story and that nobody would care in TWD universe of her being so. Being queer should not be considered "political" when the opposition is obviously socially based. That's why just because the world of TWD doesn't "have" politics, that doesn't mean everyone just becomes accepting of other groups backgrounds, because it comes from "Society." (-da joka baby) A large theme of TWD is how people change due to the end of the world, do they become more accepting of others and see less that divides them or do they take advantage of having no consequences for their actions towards those they dislike. So there is plenty of room to tell a lgbt centered story in multiple ways.
As far as the comic, yes it will probably end up not being that good and feel like a rehash of TFS. I hope it pulls through but I guess we can only wait. But let's not act like the reason it probably won't be that great is because the story may focus on Clem being queer in some way.
… Would you mind giving me an example of a game with an “unbalanced number of LGBTQ characters” that shoved it in our faces? I’m not quite sure what you mean by that.
… Would you mind giving me an example of a game with an “unbalanced number of LGBTQ characters” that shoved it in our faces? I’m not quite sure what you mean by that.
Yaaaaayy. Discourse on Tillie Walden writing Clementine as a bisexual character... This surely isn't gonna bite people in the ass later on.
Seriously though, it's a little too early to say "oh no they're gonna shove her bisexuality in our face. ". We don't know how they're gonna write this into the story, and idk why people are acting like this is a bad thing. lol
That's all I can really say without this possibly sparking something so I'm gonna stop there.
I finished rewatching the korean zombie show, Kingdom, on Netflix to prepare myself for it's special episode which comes out this Friday. Upon rewatching this series, I managed to understand the story even more and memorize some of its characters.
Seriously, Kingdom is just one of the best Netflix originals and I hate how overlooked it is. Korea is killing it with its cinematography.
Having three queer characters in a game is considered unbalanced? What does that even mean? Is the exchange rate of one LGBTQ+ character equal to ten straight characters? Does that mean a game can’t exceed more than one gay character or it breaks some sort of arbitrary limit?
Yeah I kinda agree, I really don't care that there's an invincibility mode in Psychonauts 2 because it doesn't bother me. Even if you could make all the enemies have 1 health that wouldn't bother me. Yeah it's not the vision but who cares it's like playing with mods. But they shouldn't go overboard. The thing that kinda annoys me is that you can get all trophies/achievements with invincibility mode in Psychonauts 2 lol. That doesn't sit right with me and I probably can't explain why.
@captainivy1 My comment states how when it comes to gameplay design, and the debate on whether or not it should be more accessible, it's alw… moreays "well they should maintain their vision for the game", and I get that, if a developer wants to make a game hard, by all means, but that same energy is nowhere to be seen when it comes to a narrative decision. Personally, I'd like to see the Industry move towards more accessibility, and I'm sure that the majority of studios do want it, but lack time/resources to do it. So I understand that. Compared to like, a decade ago, there are strides made in accessibility that I acknowledged, and do suggest it's becoming baked into the development process more frequently. My bone to pick with this incident is the response from players and the general attitude to making a game easier to enter for groups that are physically impaired.
To put it simply, I want games to be more accessible, but want developers to ad… [view original content]
Compare Dina to Riley from the first game. Her relationship with Ellie was barely earned in the second game because all they do is "Babe, babe, babe, babe, babe, babe" for the most part in the whole game. They barely had moments where their chemistry was developing. Just because they had a pre-established relationship, doesn't mean I should care unless they prove their real love on screen over exposition. Ellie and Riley had a lot of moments which prove they deserved each other.
What I meant the most is stop forcing romance on the screen via exposition. Especially for LGBTQ ones. What is the fundamental rule of telling a story? Show, don't tell.
Having three queer characters in a game is considered unbalanced? What does that even mean? Is the exchange rate of one LGBTQ+ character equ… moreal to ten straight characters? Does that mean a game can’t exceed more than one gay character or it breaks some sort of arbitrary limit?
Riley was also introduced with a pre-established relationship with Ellie and we are made aware that they are close because they tell us that they’re close and then we hang out with her for a cool couple hours as they reminisce about past events we never see and then they kiss. I really like their relationship because I enjoyed the stories they’d shared as well as their chemistry but to say that their relationship didn’t contain any exposition is absurd.
I have absolutely no idea where you got the “Babe, babe, babe, and that’s all idea” from. Spoiler tag cause this is the general chat.
We get to see their relationship develop with Ellie singing to her, all the dialogue when exploring, seeing Dina willing to sacrifice her life to save Ellie after her mask breaks, them saving each other’s lives several times, Dina taking care of Ellie’s wounds, etc. Throughout the course of the game you’re shown time and time again that they do actually care about each other so I have no idea how you can claim their relationship is purely based on exposition.
What I meant the most is stop forcing romance on the screen via exposition. Especially for LGBTQ ones.
Why the special case for queer characters? What makes it so different in comparison to a straight couple?
Compare Dina to Riley from the first game. Her relationship with Ellie was barely earned in the second game because all they do is "Babe, ba… morebe, babe, babe, babe, babe" for the most part in the whole game. They barely had moments where their chemistry was developing. Just because they had a pre-established relationship, doesn't mean I should care unless they prove their real love on screen over exposition. Ellie and Riley had a lot of moments which prove they deserved each other.
What I meant the most is stop forcing romance on the screen via exposition. Especially for LGBTQ ones. What is the fundamental rule of telling a story? Show, don't tell.
Riley was also introduced with a pre-established relationship with Ellie and we are made aware that they are close because they tell us that they’re close and then we hang out with her for a cool couple hours as they reminisce about past events we never see and then they kiss. I really like their relationship but to say that their relationship didn’t contain any exposition is absurd.
I never said Ellie and Riley's relationship wasn't pre-established and didn't contain exposition. It was but they showed a lot of moments having fun with each other in the DLC. Like riding a horse carousel, playing with halloween toys and costumes, reading jokes from a joke book, taking pictures in a photo booth, playing on an arcade using imagination, fighting with water guns and dancing. You only mentioned one moment where Ellie and Dina's relationship was earned and that is when Ellie played the guitar.
all the dialogue when exploring
Too expositiony.
seeing Dina willing to sacrifice her life to save Ellie after her mask breaks
I barely buy her motivation for this. Why go on a suicide mission for just one girl she fucked for just one day? Are we just gonna pretend she didn't have other friends in Jackson? Like Jesse, his parents, Maria, the kids, the guy she was dancing with before Ellie etc.
them saving each other’s lives several times
That's a normal thing for any AI partners.
Dina taking care of Ellie’s wounds
Again, another normal thing for a friend to do.
Throughout the course of the game you’re shown time and time again that they do actually care about each other so I have no idea how you can claim their relationship is purely based on exposition.
How many moments did Ellie have with Dina compared to Riley? I mentioned more than 5 moments and in Dina's case, you only mentioned ONE moment where I think it showed development.
Why the special case for queer characters? What makes it so different in comparison to a straight couple? Aside from what may or may not be between their legs.
Who said it only works for a straight couple to me? Abby and Owen's relationship was the worst of the bunch.
???
Riley was also introduced with a pre-established relationship with Ellie and we are made aware that they are close because they tell … moreus that they’re close and then we hang out with her for a cool couple hours as they reminisce about past events we never see and then they kiss. I really like their relationship because I enjoyed the stories they’d shared as well as their chemistry but to say that their relationship didn’t contain any exposition is absurd.
I have absolutely no idea where you got the “Babe, babe, babe, and that’s all idea” from. Spoiler tag cause this is the general chat.
(Spoiler)
What I meant the most is stop forcing romance on the screen via exposition. Especially for LGBTQ ones.
Why the special case for queer characters? What makes it so different in comparison to a straight couple?
… That’s not exposition. By this logic, anytime anyone in a game learns something about anyone it’s exposition. Does this mean that every optional conversation Joel and Ellie have in the original game is exposition? Or is that the good kind but this is the bad kind for some arbitrary reason?
I barely buy her motivation for this. Why go on a suicide mission for just one girl she fucked for just one day? Are we just gonna pretend she didn't have other friends in Jackson?
Because as you previously mentioned, it’s established that the two have had prior history together and by the end of the prologue it’s clear the two are close to each other, and then later on in the game, clearly in love with each other.
Are we just gonna pretend she didn't have other friends in Jackson? Like Jesse, his parents, Maria, the kids, the guy she was dancing with before Ellie etc.
I have absolutely no clue what you’re even going on about here.
Like riding a horse carousel, playing with halloween toys and costumes, reading jokes from a joke book, taking pictures in a photo booth, playing on an arcade using imagination, fighting with water guns and dancing.
You keep saying that everything I said could be done with a friend but the same can be said with literally everything you just mentioned. Not everything Ellie and Dina does has to have some sort of romantic connotation to it in order to prove they love and care about each other. They just need to be there for one another. Or do they to give each other fuck me eyes in every scene they’re in in order for you to believe they’re in a relationship?
How many moments did Ellie have with Dina compared to Riley? I mentioned more than 5 moments and in Dina's case, you only mentioned ONE moment where I think it showed development.
Just went ahead and plugged your ears, closed your eyes and yelled “lalalalala”, huh?
Who said it only works for a straight couple to me? Abby and Owen's relationship was the worst of the bunch.
Because you literally just mentioned how romance filed by exposition is especially bad when it comes to LGBTQ characters. I never said that you didn’t mind it if it happened to straight characters. I just want to know why queer characters specifically are getting a harsher judgement.
Look, you can dislike the romance, but man, you don’t need to try and go out of your way to discredit everything about it to the point of ridiculousness in some strange effort to come out on top.
I didn’t even ask for this lmao. I was just guffawing at you brazenly complaining about LGBTQ inclusion in video games and then you tried to backpedal as hard as you could into whatever this argument even is as you repeatedly try and avoid answering my question on your harsher attitude towards queer characters by disparaging an established same sex couple with arguments constructed out of the same material used to hold the Telltale forum servers together.
Riley was also introduced with a pre-established relationship with Ellie and we are made aware that they are close because they tell us that… more they’re close and then we hang out with her for a cool couple hours as they reminisce about past events we never see and then they kiss. I really like their relationship but to say that their relationship didn’t contain any exposition is absurd.
I never said Ellie and Riley's relationship wasn't pre-established and didn't contain exposition. It was but they showed a lot of moments having fun with each other in the DLC. Like riding a horse carousel, playing with halloween toys and costumes, reading jokes from a joke book, taking pictures in a photo booth, playing on an arcade using imagination, fighting with water guns and dancing. You only mentioned one moment where Ellie and Dina's relationship was earned and that is when Ellie played the guitar.
(Spoiler)
Does this mean that every optional conversation Joel and Ellie have in the original game is exposition?
TLOU1 spends more time on Joel and Ellie's relationship compared to Ellie and Dina in TLOU2 which is 25 hours long for the wrong reasons. The first game had more scripted moments between those characters than the second game did with Ellie and Dina.
it’s established that the two have had prior history together and by the end of the prologue it’s clear the two are close to each other, and then later on in the game, clearly in love with each other.
Ok? How does that justify Dina going on a suicide mission for something that had nothing to do with her shenanigans?
I have absolutely no clue what you’re even going on about here.
Let me ask you something. If you live with your lovely family in places like Jackson in a zombie apocalypse and you finally get a girlfriend there, would you ditch your family and risk your own life for her when she goes on a suicide mission or when she decides to leave the safe place and live by herself?
You keep saying that everything I said could be done with a friend but the same can be said with literally everything you just mentioned.
Didn't I just say that the guitar scene was the part where they showed development between those two? That's not the same as saving each other's lives or giving treatment.
Not everything Ellie and Dina does has to have some sort of romantic connotation to it in order to prove they love and care about each other. They just need to be there for one another.
I probably would have gave more shit about Dina if they never forced her to become pregnant in order for Ellie to go on her own. It's lazy writing (It's even lazier when you realize she survived the mine explosion and a fall over the edge and escaped out of sight with no problem) They never explained when was the last time Jesse and Dina slept with each other before they broke up. if they don't care about answering this question, why should I?
Just went ahead and plugged your ears, closed your eyes and yelled “lalalalala”, huh?
I'm sorry I'm a good citizen. Wanna sprite cranberry?
Because you literally just mentioned how romance filed by exposition is especially bad when it comes to LGBTQ characters.
I said "Especially" not "Only". The reason I think LGBTQ is a little bit worse is because they add it just for the sake of it without much of establishing its existence. Was it neccessary for Lando to be confirmed LGBTQ in Solo? I am one of those people who liked Legend of Korra but the LGBTQ moment wasn't one of my favorite parts of the show because of it was just added just for the sake of it. Granted, they explained the reason for the lack of build up but it just wasn't enough for me to accept it. Checkhov's Gun gives the best description of how you tell a story properly. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chekhov's_gun
Look, you can dislike the romance, but man, you don’t need to try and go out of your way to discredit everything about it to the point of ridiculousness in some strange effort to come out on top.
Who said I disliked the romance? I just don't give a shit about it (Even though the game wants me to) due to how poorly executed and lackluster it was. All I want was a better execution and what was present in the game wasn't
I didn’t even ask for this lmao.
What did I just say above? I said I don't want to talk about the game, yet you are the one who asked for it. Say what again?
I was just guffawing at you brazenly complaining about LGBTQ inclusion in video games and then you tried to backpedal as hard as you could into whatever this argument even is as you repeatedly try and avoid answering my question on your harsher attitude towards queer characters by disparaging an established same sex couple with arguments constructed out of the same material used to hold the Telltale forum servers together.
Fine, you want a better reason? Here you go: Stop adding any sort of romance in the story if you don't care to establish it very well.
I just chose the wrong words.
What in the Sam Hill…
(Spoiler)
Look, you can dislike the romance, but man, you don’t need to try and go out of your way to discredit … moreeverything about it to the point of ridiculousness in some strange effort to come out on top.
I didn’t even ask for this lmao. I was just guffawing at you brazenly complaining about LGBTQ inclusion in video games and then you tried to backpedal as hard as you could into whatever this argument even is as you repeatedly try and avoid answering my question on your harsher attitude towards queer characters by disparaging an established same sex couple with arguments constructed out of the same material used to hold the Telltale forum servers together.
How does that justify Dina going on a suicide mission for something that had nothing to do with her shenanigans?
Because that's what you do for good friends/lovers/people you care for.
And Dina stuck around with Ellie because Ellie was probably going to die if she went off alone.
I don't see how that's not understandable.
It's not confirmed if Dina had family at all. She could have been a solo Survivor before Jackson.
Edit: actually, no, she does not have family in Jackson. We briefly know of her backstory in New Mexico, but apart from that, doesn't seem like she's with them anymore.
In one scene, Dina revealed she lived in New Mexico for a time with her mother and sister. She also described one of the main factions her family encountered during their time there – the Ravens. The group shares similarities to The Last of Us: Part 2’s WLF as well as the hunters in Pittsburgh that Joel and Ellie encounter in the first game. Dina explains the Ravens consists primarily of former FEDRA members who challenged the military and FEDRA for control of New Mexico’s quarantine zones.
Unfortunately, The Last of Us: Part 2's story fails to inform players what exactly happened to Dina’s family. Since she seems to mainly talk about them in past tense, however, it seems to be implicit that something grave happened to them. At the very least, they don't seem to be a part of Dina's life anymore.
Does this mean that every optional conversation Joel and Ellie have in the original game is exposition?
TLOU1 spends more time on Jo… moreel and Ellie's relationship compared to Ellie and Dina in TLOU2 which is 25 hours long for the wrong reasons. The first game had more scripted moments between those characters than the second game did with Ellie and Dina.
it’s established that the two have had prior history together and by the end of the prologue it’s clear the two are close to each other, and then later on in the game, clearly in love with each other.
Ok? How does that justify Dina going on a suicide mission for something that had nothing to do with her shenanigans?
I have absolutely no clue what you’re even going on about here.
Let me ask you something. If you live with your lovely family in places like Jackson in a zombie apocalypse and you finally get a girlfriend there, would you ditch your family and risk… [view original content]
@AChicken, I want to ask you this weird question. Do you prefer KFC or Chick-fil-a? (I know this seems completely random after the LOU2 comments but I am curious).
Does this mean that every optional conversation Joel and Ellie have in the original game is exposition?
TLOU1 spends more time on Jo… moreel and Ellie's relationship compared to Ellie and Dina in TLOU2 which is 25 hours long for the wrong reasons. The first game had more scripted moments between those characters than the second game did with Ellie and Dina.
it’s established that the two have had prior history together and by the end of the prologue it’s clear the two are close to each other, and then later on in the game, clearly in love with each other.
Ok? How does that justify Dina going on a suicide mission for something that had nothing to do with her shenanigans?
I have absolutely no clue what you’re even going on about here.
Let me ask you something. If you live with your lovely family in places like Jackson in a zombie apocalypse and you finally get a girlfriend there, would you ditch your family and risk… [view original content]
For real, I've never been to any of those places. No reason other than I've just never chosen to go (plus there's very few in my area... at least I think so)
@AChicken, I want to ask you this weird question. Do you prefer KFC or Chick-fil-a? (I know this seems completely random after the LOU2 comments but I am curious).
For real, I've never been to any of those places. No reason other than I've just never chosen to go (plus there's very few in my area... at least I think so)
Comments
I don't know in which way you meant this, but while being gay doesn't matter in a moral sense (as in it's not a moral or immoral thing) it's bizarre to think that it doesn't matter in a practical sense and that it shouldn't affect fictional narratives sometimes.
Being gay by itself isn't a personality trait, but growing up gay, for a lot of people, will greatly shape many aspects of their lives. There's nothing wrong with writing fiction that addresses these topics, and a lot of times it can be used to add depth and complexity to a character.
(I'm also not saying all narratives that feature gay characters need to also feature "the gay traumatic past™" or anything of the sort, just that there's nothing inherently wrong of a narrative to do so).
As for the Clem book thing, unless Clementine encounters someone openly homophobic, or has retained some memories of pre-apocalypse stuff, I don't know how they'll bring it up without it feeling jarring. I'd wait and see before passing judgement, hopefully it's not vapid as it sometimes tends to be.
… I’m sure this won’t bite me in the ass but I’m gonna have to strongly disagree with this.
While I agree that the sex/gender of the person you’re attracted to doesn’t exactly equal a personality, I think it’s a bit ignorant to say that a person being gay, bisexual, or queer doesn’t matter or that it can’t add anything to a character. Especially nowadays where more and more people are becoming more comfortable in coming out, it’s important that there be people, regardless if they’re fictional or not, to look up to. There are so many people, as well as kids, trying to figure themselves out and having media that addresses these kinds of topics can be a big help. Not every piece of media about a minority needs to be all about how they’re a minority, but to believe that it shouldn’t even be a thing is a bit foolish. Especially when there are still so many parts of the world that are actively trying to fight against and even kill people for not being “normal.”
As for how it’ll play out in the graphic novels, I have no fucking clue lmao, but I’m willing to wait and see how it plays out. If it’s done right then cool, if it stinks then oh well.
In the context of TWD, where every day is focused on survival and the daily challenges in doing so because of the consistent threat of death from walkers, other humans, starvation, exposure to the elements, disease, lack of supplies, and emotional trauma, I’d say no, I don’t think being queer, at least for Clem, will have a huge impact. Like I said, she didn’t have any reservations about being in a relationship with Violet, she just accepted it as a normal thing that people experience, and that should be how it’s seen and viewed as. It didn’t become an overarching part of her character journey, nor should it have been.
In some contexts, perhaps yes, it could. I can imagine a coming out story for a character growing up someplace like the Middle East, where religious, cultural, and judicial structures still result in homosexuality being punished with stoning and death, could be a decently interesting narrative and journey for a character. But here, with Clem, I don’t see it. And in most contexts, I still don’t see it as something that should be an essential part of a person’s character. Western culture and audiences have generally been far more accepting of queer characters and people, not perfect, but certainly much more than other parts of the world. And in a universe where people are more centered on how they’re going to survive, who another person chooses to love is not at the forefront of most individuals and communities. Kenny didn’t seem to care about Walter and Matthew’s relationship, and he’s sort of portrayed as a stereotypical Floridian/redneck. Doesn’t he also have a line of how one great thing about the apocalypse is no longer having to deal with politics.
TWD universe has always been a world very accepting of queer characters, so this isn’t really any new ground the series is walking on here. What I’m worried about is exactly what you said, I just don’t see how they will address it without being jarring. Look, obviously, this is my two cents, and people are free to disagree with me if they think I’m looking at it too myopically. I just want a good story that can hopefully justify the Clementine Lives comic and make me proud to be a Clementine fan again.
It's the apocalypse, zombies don't give a shit if you're straight, gay or whatever so I don't see why they have to make this into a huge plot point for Clementine when in all the seasons, she was never seen struggling with her sexuality and it seems like they're just gonna toss away Louis and Violet and pretend that it never happened so they can ship her off with some new character and the evil twins bit which brings to mind Sophie and Minerva, this sounds like Tillie Walden just wants to write her own version of season 4 and reboot Clementine by disregarding all the choices, her character development and cut ties with AJ and the cast that was involved in it so they can have a reason to continue her story that was finished 2 years ago.
I just don't get what the long-term plan is for this graphic novel trilogy, is Clem just gonna spend all her time with the group of teenagers in Vermont in nearly all these novels cause if AJ and the rest of the kids from Ericson's couldn't make her happy, how will this group make her happy, what can they give her that the last group couldn't? More attention?
The more I hear about this novel, the more I'm losing my faith in it cause the only reason they are making this is for money and nothing else.
This. Nothing can impress me anymore with cliches of the modern era like subverting expectations, sequels that rehash ideas from previous entries, establishing the LGBTQ+ on characters, forcing agenda and everything in between. Not even 5 years later and I already hate this new decade.
… Lmao what?
By that, I mean the unbalanced number of LGBTQ characters in one game and story shoving it in our faces in every second
Saying you're happy to with work with an lgbt protagonist and that you can explore "what it means to be queer in the apocalypse" can mean almost anything but everyone is jumping to conclusions.
It is so briefly said and so vague there is no reason to be so "worried" about it. I also wouldn't saying Clem being queer means it should have 0 importance with the story and that nobody would care in TWD universe of her being so. Being queer should not be considered "political" when the opposition is obviously socially based. That's why just because the world of TWD doesn't "have" politics, that doesn't mean everyone just becomes accepting of other groups backgrounds, because it comes from "Society." (-da joka baby) A large theme of TWD is how people change due to the end of the world, do they become more accepting of others and see less that divides them or do they take advantage of having no consequences for their actions towards those they dislike. So there is plenty of room to tell a lgbt centered story in multiple ways.
As far as the comic, yes it will probably end up not being that good and feel like a rehash of TFS. I hope it pulls through but I guess we can only wait. But let's not act like the reason it probably won't be that great is because the story may focus on Clem being queer in some way.
Gay people are cool
… Would you mind giving me an example of a game with an “unbalanced number of LGBTQ characters” that shoved it in our faces? I’m not quite sure what you mean by that.
Anyone else having issues accessing the forums? I’m now even struggling to get on here with my iPad and it straight up doesn’t work on my phone
What the hell happened???
TLOU2 is the best example I can give but I don't wanna talk about it here
Yaaaaayy. Discourse on Tillie Walden writing Clementine as a bisexual character... This surely isn't gonna bite people in the ass later on.
Seriously though, it's a little too early to say "oh no they're gonna shove her bisexuality in our face.
". We don't know how they're gonna write this into the story, and idk why people are acting like this is a bad thing. lol
That's all I can really say without this possibly sparking something so I'm gonna stop there.
Yeah, I couldn't access the forums at all since yesterday. Finally got in.
Maybe they're finally updating the site, haha... Ha...
POV: You thought the forum update was happening
I finished rewatching the korean zombie show, Kingdom, on Netflix to prepare myself for it's special episode which comes out this Friday. Upon rewatching this series, I managed to understand the story even more and memorize some of its characters.
Seriously, Kingdom is just one of the best Netflix originals and I hate how overlooked it is. Korea is killing it with its cinematography.
Having three queer characters in a game is considered unbalanced? What does that even mean? Is the exchange rate of one LGBTQ+ character equal to ten straight characters? Does that mean a game can’t exceed more than one gay character or it breaks some sort of arbitrary limit?
Cool, I’m not the only one who had trouble getting in
Pain
I thought the forums were done for tbh lmao we haven't had something like that happen in a while.
From what i understand they literally couldn't update the forums even if they wanted to i think it's probably too much trouble.
Oh hey we're back.
Let's all Flashback to me, two days ago ,struggling to get past the 504 Error page to gush about Marvel stuff:
I-I did it. So. Many. Refreshes.
This is a certified yesss moment
I wonder how Netflix is doing with Season 3/The Movie. I'm crossing my fingers we get it this December...
Yeah I kinda agree, I really don't care that there's an invincibility mode in Psychonauts 2 because it doesn't bother me. Even if you could make all the enemies have 1 health that wouldn't bother me. Yeah it's not the vision but who cares it's like playing with mods. But they shouldn't go overboard. The thing that kinda annoys me is that you can get all trophies/achievements with invincibility mode in Psychonauts 2 lol. That doesn't sit right with me and I probably can't explain why.
Compare Dina to Riley from the first game. Her relationship with Ellie was barely earned in the second game because all they do is "Babe, babe, babe, babe, babe, babe" for the most part in the whole game. They barely had moments where their chemistry was developing. Just because they had a pre-established relationship, doesn't mean I should care unless they prove their real love on screen over exposition. Ellie and Riley had a lot of moments which prove they deserved each other.
What I meant the most is stop forcing romance on the screen via exposition. Especially for LGBTQ ones. What is the fundamental rule of telling a story? Show, don't tell.
???
Riley was also introduced with a pre-established relationship with Ellie and we are made aware that they are close because they tell us that they’re close and then we hang out with her for a cool couple hours as they reminisce about past events we never see and then they kiss. I really like their relationship because I enjoyed the stories they’d shared as well as their chemistry but to say that their relationship didn’t contain any exposition is absurd.
I have absolutely no idea where you got the “Babe, babe, babe, and that’s all idea” from. Spoiler tag cause this is the general chat.
We get to see their relationship develop with Ellie singing to her, all the dialogue when exploring, seeing Dina willing to sacrifice her life to save Ellie after her mask breaks, them saving each other’s lives several times, Dina taking care of Ellie’s wounds, etc. Throughout the course of the game you’re shown time and time again that they do actually care about each other so I have no idea how you can claim their relationship is purely based on exposition.
Why the special case for queer characters? What makes it so different in comparison to a straight couple?
I never said Ellie and Riley's relationship wasn't pre-established and didn't contain exposition. It was but they showed a lot of moments having fun with each other in the DLC. Like riding a horse carousel, playing with halloween toys and costumes, reading jokes from a joke book, taking pictures in a photo booth, playing on an arcade using imagination, fighting with water guns and dancing. You only mentioned one moment where Ellie and Dina's relationship was earned and that is when Ellie played the guitar.
Too expositiony.
I barely buy her motivation for this. Why go on a suicide mission for just one girl she fucked for just one day? Are we just gonna pretend she didn't have other friends in Jackson? Like Jesse, his parents, Maria, the kids, the guy she was dancing with before Ellie etc.
That's a normal thing for any AI partners.
Again, another normal thing for a friend to do.
How many moments did Ellie have with Dina compared to Riley? I mentioned more than 5 moments and in Dina's case, you only mentioned ONE moment where I think it showed development.
Who said it only works for a straight couple to me? Abby and Owen's relationship was the worst of the bunch.
What in the Sam Hill…
… That’s not exposition. By this logic, anytime anyone in a game learns something about anyone it’s exposition. Does this mean that every optional conversation Joel and Ellie have in the original game is exposition? Or is that the good kind but this is the bad kind for some arbitrary reason?
Because as you previously mentioned, it’s established that the two have had prior history together and by the end of the prologue it’s clear the two are close to each other, and then later on in the game, clearly in love with each other.
I have absolutely no clue what you’re even going on about here.
You keep saying that everything I said could be done with a friend but the same can be said with literally everything you just mentioned. Not everything Ellie and Dina does has to have some sort of romantic connotation to it in order to prove they love and care about each other. They just need to be there for one another. Or do they to give each other fuck me eyes in every scene they’re in in order for you to believe they’re in a relationship?
Just went ahead and plugged your ears, closed your eyes and yelled “lalalalala”, huh?
Because you literally just mentioned how romance filed by exposition is especially bad when it comes to LGBTQ characters. I never said that you didn’t mind it if it happened to straight characters. I just want to know why queer characters specifically are getting a harsher judgement.
Look, you can dislike the romance, but man, you don’t need to try and go out of your way to discredit everything about it to the point of ridiculousness in some strange effort to come out on top.
I didn’t even ask for this lmao. I was just guffawing at you brazenly complaining about LGBTQ inclusion in video games and then you tried to backpedal as hard as you could into whatever this argument even is as you repeatedly try and avoid answering my question on your harsher attitude towards queer characters by disparaging an established same sex couple with arguments constructed out of the same material used to hold the Telltale forum servers together.
Checkmate.
Then there’s the virgin me
Thank you Poogs
This is why I just don't engage anymore...
How is this getting worse...
TLOU1 spends more time on Joel and Ellie's relationship compared to Ellie and Dina in TLOU2 which is 25 hours long for the wrong reasons. The first game had more scripted moments between those characters than the second game did with Ellie and Dina.
Ok? How does that justify Dina going on a suicide mission for something that had nothing to do with her shenanigans?
Let me ask you something. If you live with your lovely family in places like Jackson in a zombie apocalypse and you finally get a girlfriend there, would you ditch your family and risk your own life for her when she goes on a suicide mission or when she decides to leave the safe place and live by herself?
Didn't I just say that the guitar scene was the part where they showed development between those two? That's not the same as saving each other's lives or giving treatment.
I probably would have gave more shit about Dina if they never forced her to become pregnant in order for Ellie to go on her own. It's lazy writing (It's even lazier when you realize she survived the mine explosion and a fall over the edge and escaped out of sight with no problem) They never explained when was the last time Jesse and Dina slept with each other before they broke up. if they don't care about answering this question, why should I?
I'm sorry I'm a good citizen. Wanna sprite cranberry?
I said "Especially" not "Only". The reason I think LGBTQ is a little bit worse is because they add it just for the sake of it without much of establishing its existence. Was it neccessary for Lando to be confirmed LGBTQ in Solo? I am one of those people who liked Legend of Korra but the LGBTQ moment wasn't one of my favorite parts of the show because of it was just added just for the sake of it. Granted, they explained the reason for the lack of build up but it just wasn't enough for me to accept it. Checkhov's Gun gives the best description of how you tell a story properly.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chekhov's_gun
Who said I disliked the romance? I just don't give a shit about it (Even though the game wants me to) due to how poorly executed and lackluster it was. All I want was a better execution and what was present in the game wasn't
What did I just say above? I said I don't want to talk about the game, yet you are the one who asked for it. Say what again?
Fine, you want a better reason? Here you go: Stop adding any sort of romance in the story if you don't care to establish it very well.
I just chose the wrong words.
Alright. Okay. For this thing:
Because that's what you do for good friends/lovers/people you care for.
And Dina stuck around with Ellie because Ellie was probably going to die if she went off alone.
I don't see how that's not understandable.
It's not confirmed if Dina had family at all. She could have been a solo Survivor before Jackson.
Edit: actually, no, she does not have family in Jackson. We briefly know of her backstory in New Mexico, but apart from that, doesn't seem like she's with them anymore.
@AChicken, I want to ask you this weird question. Do you prefer KFC or Chick-fil-a? (I know this seems completely random after the LOU2 comments but I am curious).
Lmao I can’t, this is getting too ludicrous. I’m tapping out
I’m sorry, I’ve failed you
For real, I've never been to any of those places. No reason other than I've just never chosen to go (plus there's very few in my area... at least I think so)
Well if you ever do, I would like to know your opinion on the chicken places.
...
So 13 Sentinels is on sale for 35$ in the massive Playstation summer sale.
I think I'm gonna get it (along with another thing, maybe)
@dojo32161