I mean PewDiePie did a video on that GTA Definitive Edition lol still went back to watch it and laugh of how stupid the company is being on this game. Like even the mods are wayyy better. Man, Rockstar games,CD Project Red,And other companies. Man,it is sad to see tbh.
Since The Wolf Among Us 2 is only thing we can at least talk about until whatever news on it. Comes out. We should speculate on what kind of season 2 we are getting. No idea. But,i wonder if we would go to The Farm on that season 2. I mean it seems interesting to chat about.
In terms of gameplay, it's fine. It doesn't change anything too much from the first game, Naughty Dog usually doesn't tend to stray too far from a working formula when it comes to this. Couple added features, but overall, it's nothing really new. For me, this was fine and not a point of criticism, while for others it was, and it was also one for the first game. To me, I enjoyed it in the first game and I found it just as enjoyable this time around, and the new features added did create some extra challenge that wasn't there in the first game
I actually noted that during its release last year, as I said, haven't touched the game, but with it being a big IP, it would of course make the rounds all across social media, and the gameplay being relatively the same was a criticism I noticed, but not a major one. Good to hear that there was slight deviations that added a challenge to the player.
Graphics and art is a huge improvement, and even then, the first game did it very well too. I have only played it on the base PS4, and even on that system, it was very detailed (all those crunch overtime hours went heavily into this). Though I will say that, while the first game wasn't the most colorful, this game really uses dark aesthetics and grey tints. This looks like it was a purposeful decision meant to play into Ellie's overall character arc, the theme of the game, and show the further dilapidation of the world after decades in the apocalypse, but still, I do think it went a bit overboard.
Now the crunch part... I'm aware of that, and honestly, I condemn that, absolutely and totally condemn it, the only problem I've got with The Last of Us Part II winning the vast amount of awards that it has won is that it rewarded a problem that plagues the industry from top to bottom: overworking staff, taking away their leisure time and stripping them of a work-life balance.
I've kinda went off based on a fairly brief part of your comment, but I'll return to your main part, the artstyle you described doesn't sound too bad, actually sounds pretty cool and fitting, that's just me though.
Where it just falls apart for me is the writing and characters. The first game created a well detailed cast of characters that, while they weren't in the game for most of the time, you remember and/or care for. The acting plays a huge part as their actors and actresses perfectly conveyed whatever emotions they needed to in order to add to the subtlety and complexity of the characters. Not saying the acting in TLOU II was bad, it was still fantastic by all parties involved, but the writing just didn't support them in nearly the same way. Characters either betray basic character traits from the previous game, their arcs ultimately go nowhere or have a very unsatisfying payoff, and it felt as though they were trying to do too much with certain characters and just didn't give enough screen time in order for us to truly bond with them. While the characters in the first game may have had less screen time than the newer characters, they had entire sections of the game dedicated to them interacting with Joel and Ellie. In this game, since we are getting some of these characters from two different perspectives, Ellie and Abby, we can't really establish a bond with them, and often times, they'll show up, disappear, show up, disappear, and show up before either being written out or killed off. The characters just don't have the same bond to us as a player then they did in the first game, they feel more like characters, while in the first game, they felt more human.
I don't feel the need to comment on the first four sentences of that paragraph, I think what you said is fair enough, regarding characters going against their traits from the first game, is that not just a progression of the character? Like during a lapse of time, we aren't going to remain the same, I may not be the same person 10 years down the line, maybe I won't be the same person in 5, people change depending on their environment, if the conditions suit, they'll adapt and change. Maybe the characters in the second game aren't the same people they were in the first game? Maybe it took the experience of the first game and the aftermath for them to let their hair down and change so that established traits are toned down and are a product of their past? As for where arcs end up or the payoff, can't say too much on that for reasons I've mentioned, I haven't played the game. But for players of both games, the context is there, it's not unreasonable to expect a change when you've been through the wringer and evaluate what it took to get to where you are now, and if it was worth it.
I understand a key theme in the game is Revenge, and I think that too maybe extends to the player, not just the characters. Like despite not playing the game, I'm familiar with some of the key plot points, that big character death at the start, I know who it's referring to, that WTF? moment towards the end involving Ellie, I think I've got an idea what that is, but the game is vast, so those couple of big moments in the game are more or less the only stuff I know about it, and I didn't feel they were exactly bad decisions, I think it just really has to be examined to understand why those events occurred or the reasons behind the decisions.
The original TLOU is still beloved, still talked about, still praised, and will stand the test of time by all available accounts.
Hopefully, and you may disagree, but I think The Last of Us Part II will probably stand that test too, it is and was easy to take note of the "Go woke, go broke, quit shoving your agenda down my throat" nonsense that was shared, but that was more due to just how loud it was, and it being platformed and shared across the internet as a "What?" in response to how ludicrous some comments were made in spite of the game. But I do recall seeing glowing praise, not just from outlets, but many, many fans of the series. I have a private Twitter account, I just use it to follow gaming stuff, I don't engage in conversation, send messages, I just like to scroll through my feed to see what's happening in the industry, when the game released I saw so, so much glowing praise from fans of the series, so the point I'm making is, just because the noise is loud, doesn't mean the noise is being made by many, I'd wager that there is more that like than dislike The Last of Us Part II, does it sound bonkers on paper? Absolutely, it's the loudest voices that get the most eyes, but it's not most of the people. Quite a lot of people I've encountered because my feed was curated to games described it as their GOTY, and perhaps the best game they've ever touched, with that I think we'll still be hearing about the game years into the future.
Weird how that was never a problem in the first game, where we played as Ellie for a small but good chunk of the game. Weird how that was never a problem when the DLC came out and it was revealed that Ellie is gay and the fans didn't seem to care.
Pretty sure that Ellie being revealed as being lesbian was quite a controversial moment in Left Behind, so I wouldn't exactly say people did not seem to care, they did, with a teen being in a relationship that wasn't heterosexual at that time, which is only a few years back but shows just how much the world has progressed in terms of accepting LGBTQIA+ relationships, that relationship involving Ellie was a controversial one, one that was deemed "pushing an agenda", that is the weird thing.
Most people were very accepting of it, like, good on them, but I think it's inaccurate to say that fans didn't care, because fans did, in the way of being pleased to see a beloved character be happy and with someone they love and vice versa, and others, in the way of making 15 videos talking about how a scene where two people that aren't in a heterosexual relationship kiss each other is some kind of mass hypnotism that'll lead to the eventual downfall of all civilization.
Weird how the issue with TLOU II wasn't the fact we were playing as Ellie or that she had a girlfriend in the game, and that most fans loved playing as Ellie in TLOU II and were only mad because they felt she was overly punished or suffered for no reason.
Yeah, I don't think I mentioned that Ellie specifically being the playable character was the controversy, just that more widely, a female protagonist is more often than not, the controversy, it's perceived as "pushing an agenda", it always has been, that's always been there, but it's drowned out by the majority that say "cool, that's cool" and play a game that has that protagonist. You can bet that Ellie's relationship was definitely what drew criticism, along with, as you mentioned, the fact that she gets put through the worst of it in the game(s).
Weird that one of the biggest memes and hilarious creative decisions that came from the game, and also drew some of the biggest ire from players, was a sex scene between a man and a woman.
Do you think that perhaps that's because Abby is just an absolute unit that eats bricks and shits houses, she just goes against the more common or traditional appearance of an average woman? And I dunno if it is the biggest meme, I think the most common meme that I have seen under a post by Naughty Dog is either the Wii Sports golf and the golf club memes, of course you'd see the one of Abby in the scene you described, but the golf club one was the most common meme I saw, that garnered the most engagement, usually in a not so pleasant way. Besides, I don't know why people care if she is getting some action, I suspect if Abby was designed in a more aesthetically pleasing way, and that scene remained in the game, it wouldn't be an issue, I think it would end up being one of the most replayed scenes in the game, that reload from last checkpoint button was getting smashed just like the YouTube like button if I'm being honest.
Weird how no one did the same with The Walking Dead and Clementine, who was a black bisexual female.
But they did, they literally harassed Mary Kenney, the Lead Writer for "Suffer The Children", and wrote the Violet and Clementine interactions, and accused her of peddling an agenda. Telltale shared an article on how Clementine is an icon, specifically a feminist icon that can empower people, how Clementine has transcended the Series and become an icon, an example, of how much representation means to people, I'll give a link to that article so you can read it. https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2018-09-10-how-the-walking-dead-gave-birth-to-a-feminist-icon
But the response to it? Volatile, and when Telltale shuttered weeks after that article was shared, "Go woke, go broke" like honestly, is it such a provoking issue? Does it really impact those who aren't for normalizing representation and diversity in the industry? In a meaningful capacity? The sun will still rise tomorrow, we will still wake up and go to work, come home, read a book or go for a run, it is a non-issue.
I'll be honest, personally, how I read your response, to me it seemed like of all the things I said, it was laughing at the "Go woke, go broke" crowd and the freakout that ensues, that bothered you... Why? Do you engage in that? If you do, what are you actually doing? I'm not trying to stir anything here, but the tone I derived from your response to that part of my comment was a lot more defensive than the rest, and then to insist, "No no, others are bad too because they used it to set a standard for what representation and diversity should be in the industry", we can acknowledge the bigger elephant in the room and which one is causing the bigger mess, I'd say those pushing for diversity and representation are making much less of a mess now... As for the group that uses it as a poster for anti-woke, I think we should all have a good long laugh at them, like, a proper "har-har-har". It's not like their campaigns and what they claim will happen actually happens in reality, most people tend to be fairly chuffed with "woke" stuff in games, myself included.
Now I'm not saying it wasn't used a poster for an anti-woke crowd, it definitely was and if you hate it only because it has a trans character or a gay character, you're an intellectual buffoon. But it certainly was also used as a poster for those who put too much into diversity and representation as justifications for excusing something's obvious faults and criticisms, and for that, they are also intellectual buffoons.
Nobody uses diversity and representation to justify shortcomings of a game, it's just neat to see it normalized, it doesn't make them intellectual buffoons for being chill with the representation and being happy with the representation, nobody is using it as a shield to ignore other issues that exist in a game or a form of media that include representation or diversity. Representation and diversity doesn't bring down games or make them worse. Could storytelling involving these characters be improved? Yes, the only way is up, and it will improve, and I'm all for the medium to improve and tell better stories with people of colour, LGBTQIA+ or others from a different ethnic background to my own, but including them doesn't detract from the experience, it is only a problem for people that have underlying issues with those groups that they wouldn't say out loud in public that need to examine themselves, they aren't intellectuals, they're just buffoons, they're wannabe intellectuals that lack the ability to appropriately analyze media and art, and derive some of the most weirdly insane takes from it.
In terms of gameplay, it's fine. It doesn't change anything too much from the first game, Naughty Dog usually doesn't tend to stray too far … morefrom a working formula when it comes to this. Couple added features, but overall, it's nothing really new. For me, this was fine and not a point of criticism, while for others it was, and it was also one for the first game. To me, I enjoyed it in the first game and I found it just as enjoyable this time around, and the new features added did create some extra challenge that wasn't there in the first game.
Graphics and art is a huge improvement, and even then, the first game did it very well too. I have only played it on the base PS4, and even on that system, it was very detailed (all those crunch overtime hours went heavily into this). Though I will say that, while the first game wasn't the most colorful, this game really uses dark aesthetics and grey tints. This looks like it was a purposeful decision… [view original content]
Alright fair enough then, I'll ask then, if you were a designer on the game, or implementing one or several mechanics into the game to improve the gameplay loop, what would you bring in? Was the gameplay really that much of a turn-off? For what reason?
I've fair idea as to why Abby is considered unlikeable but surely there are moments that show her as likeable, and it's a clinging to the events that came earlier into the game that hamper those scenes that show her maybe in a much better light?
For me it wasn’t even the story, though I didn’t really like it. It was the lack of innovation in gameplay that killed it for me. After beat… moreing the first game on the highest difficulty I was bored to tears playing part 2, and didn’t finish it, which is really more inexcusable than the story given the time between the two games.
As far as the story goes really it’s just that Abby isn’t a strong enough character to carry the entire story that’s built around her. If Abby was engaging or likable I could overlook the faults in the narrative but she really isn’t, at least in my eyes.
Pretty sure that Ellie being revealed as being lesbian was quite a controversial moment in Left Behind
Yep, I remember a good number of people being really shitty about it and even saw people trying to justify the kiss as Ellie just being in the moment and kissing a friend to show how much she cares lmao.
But they did, they literally harassed Mary Kenney, the Lead Writer for "Suffer The Children", and wrote the Violet and Clementine interactions, and accused her of peddling an agenda.
There were people on here bitching about Clem being bisexual and how her being one goes against their choices and that they should be allowed to change her sexuality yadayadayada you know the drill.
In terms of gameplay, it's fine. It doesn't change anything too much from the first game, Naughty Dog usually doesn't tend to stray too far … morefrom a working formula when it comes to this. Couple added features, but overall, it's nothing really new. For me, this was fine and not a point of criticism, while for others it was, and it was also one for the first game. To me, I enjoyed it in the first game and I found it just as enjoyable this time around, and the new features added did create some extra challenge that wasn't there in the first game
I actually noted that during its release last year, as I said, haven't touched the game, but with it being a big IP, it would of course make the rounds all across social media, and the gameplay being relatively the same was a criticism I noticed, but not a major one. Good to hear that there was slight deviations that added a challenge to the player.
Graphics and art is a huge improvement, an… [view original content]
regarding characters going against their traits from the first game, is that not just a progression of the character? Like during a lapse of time, we aren't going to remain the same, I may not be the same person 10 years down the line, maybe I won't be the same person in 5, people change depending on their environment, if the conditions suit, they'll adapt and change.
If we were just talking about stuff like outlooks, beliefs, views, etc., then you would be for the most part right. Obviously as time goes on and we mature and face experiences that question or validate previously held notions, our viewpoints are bound to change. People move across the spectrum, from left, to right, to center, and so on. This is not what I'm referring to. And again, it's hard to truly go in depth with it without going too hard into spoilers (though I will say, and I mean no offense when I say it, you seem to be getting very defensive over a game you haven't played), but I'm more so referring to simple actions and survival tactics that these characters have picked up on, and even showed off in the first game, that are ignored or betrayed here. And from my perspective, it feels as though it was done in order to get the ball rolling and the plot moving forward, as it doesn't contribute to anything else outside of that. If it were to tie into a certain arc, that's one thing. But we're not simply referring to something like how Joel changed because of Ellie from how he started at the beginning of the game and the end in the original, we're talking about actions that are just plain out of character for them. Another character from the first game that makes an appearance in the second game, feels like a different character from the last time we saw them. And since the scene is a flashback in which they appear, it contradicts their actions from the original game.
I understand a key theme in the game is Revenge, and I think that too maybe extends to the player, not just the characters. Like despite not playing the game, I'm familiar with some of the key plot points, that big character death at the start, I know who it's referring to, that WTF? moment towards the end involving Ellie, I think I've got an idea what that is, but the game is vast, so those couple of big moments in the game are more or less the only stuff I know about it, and I didn't feel they were exactly bad decisions, I think it just really has to be examined to understand why those events occurred or the reasons behind the decisions.
I don't think most people have argued that some of these were necessarily bad ideas. Even some of the more critical analyzers of the game can see what they were trying to do. But like how Superman telling Batman to save Martha ends his hatred for him, the problem is in how it was executed. I believe I made this comparison in my original review of the game back in the TLOU thread (if you go back you can find it where I go into spoilers and stuff, but overall, I gave it a 4/10 if I recall correctly), and since you did seem to know about the major death, then I'll bring it up again here. This would have been, at least to me, the equivalent of Lee surviving everything in Season 1, he and Clem escape from the Stranger and Savannah, spend all that time together afterwards, only for Lee to get shot by Michelle instead of Omid at the start of Season 2. That's how Joel's death felt. More than likely, had this been how S2 started, most would have been pissed, and rightfully so, because even though it's bold and risky, it also feels tone-deaf and undercuts the original. The issue is not that Joel died, hell, people were speculating that for years, even before the reveal trailer and certainly before the leaks. The issue was just, and it goes back to my original point, the execution being flawed. That is the ultimate problem for me and many others with the game, the ideas are there and it could have been done well. Similar to something like ANF, an interesting concept with good ideas, that failed because it wasn't executed properly. And certain things Neil and others from Naughty Dog did in the aftermath, and how they came off in some interviews or on Twitter certainly didn't help matters. Made them come off as smug and arrogant, which would only go and further embolden the critics, both legitimate and not.
But I do recall seeing glowing praise, not just from outlets, but many, many fans of the series. I have a private Twitter account...when the game released I saw so, so much glowing praise from fans of the series, so the point I'm making is, just because the noise is loud, doesn't mean the noise is being made by many, I'd wager that there is more that like than dislike The Last of Us Part II
Again, this is why I referenced The Last Jedi, a movie so divisive that it's either beloved or despised. No middle ground, it has to be one of the two extremes. I think you see that in the audience scores on a site like Metacritic (which already removed negative reviews, both legitimate and those just review bombing the game)
Honestly, my 4/10 is the closest thing to a middle you might get. Certain websites, because of their demographics, audiences, and other variables, are going to offer different perspectives. And I would more than likely guarantee that the crowd on Twitter, and other sites like Tumblr, were probably a crowd that was more favorable to the game than, let's say, the crowd on YouTube or Reddit. Now each website will have it's outsiders (those on Twitter lambasting the game, those on YouTube praising it to the heavens), but the ultimate point here is the world exists outside of just one echo-chamber. Going off of what one of these websites says and never looking outside of it, or worse, immediately calling anything that opposes one particular side as either woke/bigoted and castigating any arguments as one of these two blanket terms, can and will cause more division.
Yeah, I don't think I mentioned that Ellie specifically being the playable character was the controversy, just that more widely, a female protagonist is more often than not, the controversy...You can bet that Ellie's relationship was definitely what drew criticism, along with, as you mentioned, the fact that she gets put through the worst of it in the game(s).
Never said you did. However, women being the playable characters, from all available evidence, wasn't that huge of an issue, especially for Ellie. Considering how beloved Ellie was in TLOU and how much fans had come to love and care for her, why would they have been against her being the playable character in the next game? They weren't, they welcomed it. Sure some might have been upset over not playing as Joel, but that's not directed as hate towards Ellie or sexism, they just liked playing as Joel. There's people that enjoyed playing as Lee or Javi over Clementine, that's not sexism at play, it's just what they prefer. But there really weren't that many people saying I don't want to play as Clementine, nor was there for Ellie. As for Abby, while I denounce the death threats she got from certain people because of her character, that main point of criticism in playing her was not "She woman, women bad, fuck wokeism," but because of her actions in the actual game. You're trying to argue that it having female protagonists is the controversy, when the major point of my argument is that it wasn't.
She gets put through some really bad shit, and the issue is most of it was not through fault of her own making. While she made a couple of decisions that prompted some of it, in large part, it comes back to stuff that she had no control over, like the major driver of the entire plot. So when you have a lot of people sticking up for Ellie, defending Ellie, supporting Ellie after playing the game, saying she didn't deserve it, forgive me if I don't believe sexism or an anti-woke sentiment is a major driver in some of the game's criticisms. As for her relationship, I remember when the gameplay trailer came out, and it showed a cutscene of Ellie and Dina dancing and kissing, and it got a lot of praise. Looking at the video on YouTube, likes far outweigh any dislikes (speaking of which, get ready for those to go away soon, fucking YouTube). Sure some hate, but it was about 5 people, and most of the fanbase defended the scene. The most hate the kiss got was from a character in the game, who is in the game for 20 seconds, exists for no other reason than to be a homophobic prick, and served no other purpose. So I don't see it as her relationship drew criticism, I saw a lot of people either accept it or love it (my opinion, it was fine. I actually thought Ellie and Riley was a bit better even though that was only in a DLC and not a full fledged game like her and Dina, but overall it was good. They had some good moments together, I just wish that Dina was a bit more involved and we got to see more of it).
Do you think that perhaps that's because Abby is just an absolute unit that eats bricks and shits houses, she just goes against the more common or traditional appearance of an average woman?
Oh no, it definitely was. I mean, come on, she's built like a fucking tank. But along with that, I'd say it was also due to Sony. They've got a reputation for coming down on their developers when it comes to nudity in their games, and the amount of censorship they've included is on par with a 4Kids anime dub. Yet, for some reason, Naughty Dog was given the green light when it comes to this scene, it's just bizarre, and honestly, really funny. It's just so awkward and clumsy in how it's done. It comes right out of nowhere, while also simultaneously being cliche in its setup, and (slight spoiler) the male participant is actively cheating on his pregnant girlfriend. And it's not even something like he didn't know she was pregnant, she had an incredibly visible belly and was several months along. Not to mention that, earlier in the game, said pregnant girlfriend goes on a dangerous mission with them, where they fight through several enemy filled areas, and is jumping and running around guns blazing (yes, this is something that actually happens in the game). It's just, I'm sorry man, it's so freaking funny. We're approaching Life is Strange levels of hilarity, that's how ridiculous it is, and honestly, I fucking love it. I mean, I kind of checked out at that point and was just trying to get to the end, so honestly, I embrace the goofiness.
Telltale shared an article on how Clementine is an icon, specifically a feminist icon that can empower people, how Clementine has transcended the Series and become an icon, an example, of how much representation means to people, I'll give a link to that article so you can read it.
I don't know, I'm looking at those comments and it seems fine to me. People praising Clementine, arguing for representation to be natural, and acknowledging there should be more female leads and that the lack of them shouldn't be glossed over even if other series have them. The most critical comment in that thread simply says we shouldn't over-praise fictional characters as role models. I also found the original Tweet from Telltale with the article, and yes, there are a couple negative ones, but even then, 1. None of it is hate towards her as a character, 2. There were more praise comments than critical comments, and 3. Even some of the critical comments were just saying that they don't care about her sex and just like her as a character. Frankly, I don't see a problem with that last one, should that not be the standard we have? Who cares if it's a male or a female, why is one better than the other? My love for Clem (before the comic) didn't come from her being a girl, it came because of her journey. It shouldn't matter, and yet, for some people on both sides, it does matter. One side argues that having women makes it woke, another tries to make it a huge deal rather than treating it as a normal thing and judging the quality on its merits. I find both of these viewpoints wrong. I do think the grand majority of people just see her and like her for who she is, but those that try to put an over emphasis on her sex, whether for good or bad reasons, ultimately diminish her and other female characters.
I'll be honest, personally, how I read your response, to me it seemed like of all the things I said, it was laughing at the "Go woke, go broke" crowd and the freakout that ensues, that bothered you... Why?
To prove a point. I've acknowledged that there are idiots out there that accuse anything remotely "progressive" as woke. Never said it doesn't exist, and more times than not, it's ridiculous. And while I certainly do not think that the problem is as bad as these people online make it, and I certainly do not object to representation and inclusion so long as it's done well, I'm also not going to deny that some people will include it for ulterior reasons. Whether that be to get some extra recognition or credibility (didn't Rise of Skywalker have some background lesbian kiss that was visible enough for people to see and they could get recognition, but in the background enough that it could be cut out in certain markets like China), or perhaps even hide behind it as a shield. And I certainly do see this type of behavior from fans of certain properties, so the fact that you say this:
Nobody uses diversity and representation to justify shortcomings of a game...nobody is using it as a shield to ignore other issues that exist in a game or a form of media that include representation or diversity.
is quite shocking. Do you truly believe that, while there's an anti-woke crowd that perceives anything remotely inclusive as going woke, there isn't also a crowd that will go out and argue any criticism of a project is just due to it having diversity? That it's actually rooted in either some internalized bias or subconscious bigotry, not because someone just doesn't like something or is critical of it? What's the saying, every action has an equal and opposite reaction. I have seen and experienced it, and so have others. This was a contributor to IGN on Twitter in response to the criticism of the Abby sex scene:
You don't hate it because it's awkward and adds nothing, you're just a virgin. Even Angry Joe, a pretty left leaning reviewer, opened his review by saying "Before everyone rushes to call me sexist, transphobic, intolerant..." For some, criticism of the game means you are a bigot. I don't hate the game because I found certain parts of the story bad, it's because I'm homophobic. And then when I say I'm not and try to prove it, it either gets called token gestures or inherent bias. How can one even argue against that? How can I or anyone (because it's not just me, I've seen it dozens of times and not just for TLOU II) defend ourselves when someone can just claim "You're homophobic and you don't know it." One time in particular, I said that I found Ellie and Dina's relationship lacking and under-developed in certain areas, and I was called homophobic by someone. But that doesn't make sense because I think the game should have had MORE scenes of Ellie and Dina together to make it better. Didn't matter, the fact that I didn't buy it right off the bat was enough. In a show called The Dragon Prince, I once made a post saying how a female character named Claudia had the best arc going forward in the series and could be the show's best character. I was called a sexist because I argued that she could be going down a dark path that turns her into a villain (this is, in fact, a possible direction the show is going in) and that I can't handle women in powerful positions or that I didn't believe women could be in powerful fields without being evil. Didn't matter that I also said she could get a huge redemption arc which could also be interesting to see, I was a sexist in her eyes. Doesn't help when the creators and journalists also try to play this game. They'll cherry pick some comments and then use it to denigrate any critic as one of them.
And frankly, none of the stuff the anti-woke crowd complained about for TLOU II had anything to do with the stuff I mentioned (another reason for including it). Most of the anti-woke stuff was towards another character, but all of the stuff I mentioned was used by the other crowd to imply that all criticisms of the game was rooted in sexism, homophobia, etc. Didn't matter that we loved Ellie in the first game, or her reveal in Left Behind, or that we had no problems with another famous Naughty Dog series using female protagonists in an entry (Uncharted: The Lost Legacy). Both of these sides are guilty of repugnant behavior, but at least I can acknowledge that, and I feel as though you're either trying to deny that it happens, or you're shielding yourself from it.
I'd say those pushing for diversity and representation are making much less of a mess now.
Debatable. It's true that the anti-woke crowd is toxic, they overly complain online, sometimes even send death threats (which is just so fucking stupid and should be taken seriously), and should just get a life. But I find that the actions of certain people on the other side help drive not only the reactions from them, but end up supporting its growth. If you just keep bullying and bullying people, insinuating things that they aren't, and act smug in the process of doing so, how does that not create more toxicity and division? That's why both are buffoons, and the faster we realize this and don't pile onto extremes because of social media mobs, and we start promoting cooler heads than the most toxic and loud-mouthed people, this issue will get worse.
Yep, I remember a good number of people being really shitty about it and even saw people trying to justify the kiss as Ellie just being in the moment and kissing a friend to show how much she cares lmao.
That's priceless they really said that?! A bit of an odd justification for them to use, surely there wouldn't be as much scrambling to chalk up her kiss as "she's just a teen, she's got, y'know, hormones and shit happenin', she just wanted to show her how much she values her friendship through the form of a kiss! None that agenda stuff, see?!" if there was a boy instead.
But alas, those were the days of GamerGate, what a time that was...
Onto a more happier note, what I enjoy from this representation is how it inspires, since my comment I've read up on some fan accounts and essays that say that it uplifted them, it made them feel seen, and it got me thinking, for people that aren't LGBTQIA+, maybe we should look inward, and see our response to what is observed on screen. Maybe it gets us thinking about who we are inside, in an individual sense and how we look at those who are different to us.
There were people on here bitching about Clem being bisexual and how her being one goes against their choices and that they should be allowed to change her sexuality yadayadayada you know the drill.
I think I remember some of them, the Twitter interactions with Mary Kenney though, I can recall clear as crystal. It was pretty funny, she was just so blunt like "Clem's bi." And look, I'll come clean, at that time, I wasn't the biggest fan of that confirmation, looking back I am quite ashamed of my attitude to it, it was not my proudest moment, I wasn't on the attack or anything, I wasn't hostile, but internally, it was a bit of a struggle to come to terms with that confirmation about Clementine, then I just outgrew that neanderthal mentality. educated myself and saw beyond the "rainbow people bad!" propaganda. I suppose that's one benefit of overthinking things, I just think and think and think about everything, and I did the same with this and realized it is only a good thing, there's no downside.
Probably not something to openly admit on a public forum, but I'll lay my cards on the table and say that was me years ago, that's not me now, I'm not that guy
It isn't some invasion of a safe space, it isn't bringing the end of gaming as we know it, it's only advancing the idea that gaming should be for everyone, if people want to voluntarily opt out of games or communities because of LGBTQIA+ or ethnic groups become more commonplace, perhaps that's good, it's a self-report, and much different to the involuntary exclusion of aforementioned groups until recently because of Gamer™ culture.
I'll end this here, if you read this far then fair play to you.
Pretty sure that Ellie being revealed as being lesbian was quite a controversial moment in Left Behind
Yep, I remember a good number… more of people being really shitty about it and even saw people trying to justify the kiss as Ellie just being in the moment and kissing a friend to show how much she cares lmao.
But they did, they literally harassed Mary Kenney, the Lead Writer for "Suffer The Children", and wrote the Violet and Clementine interactions, and accused her of peddling an agenda.
There were people on here bitching about Clem being bisexual and how her being one goes against their choices and that they should be allowed to change her sexuality yadayadayada you know the drill.
But I find that the actions of certain people on the other side help drive not only the reactions from them, but end up supporting its growth. If you just keep bullying and bullying people, insinuating things that they aren't, and act smug in the process of doing so, how does that not create more toxicity and division? That's why both are buffoons, and the faster we realize this and don't pile onto extremes because of social media mobs, and we start promoting cooler heads than the most toxic and loud-mouthed people, this issue will get worse.
Just popping in to say: this is basically the message behind the WLF v. Scars civil war in the game and it's the most brilliant piece of social commentary to come out of it. They knew this would happen. They knew.
regarding characters going against their traits from the first game, is that not just a progression of the character? Like during a lapse of… more time, we aren't going to remain the same, I may not be the same person 10 years down the line, maybe I won't be the same person in 5, people change depending on their environment, if the conditions suit, they'll adapt and change.
If we were just talking about stuff like outlooks, beliefs, views, etc., then you would be for the most part right. Obviously as time goes on and we mature and face experiences that question or validate previously held notions, our viewpoints are bound to change. People move across the spectrum, from left, to right, to center, and so on. This is not what I'm referring to. And again, it's hard to truly go in depth with it without going too hard into spoilers (though I will say, and I mean no offense when I say it, you seem to be getting very defensive over a game you have… [view original content]
If we were just talking about stuff like outlooks, beliefs, views, etc., then you would be for the most part right. Obviously as time goes on and we mature and face experiences that question or validate previously held notions, our viewpoints are bound to change. People move across the spectrum, from left, to right, to center, and so on. This is not what I'm referring to.
But what I am referring to is not simply based on outlooks of the world, that is a piece of the pie, not the whole pie, but a component, if our environment is one that is safe, if it is one that we feel at peace, we can be vulnerable around those we trust, we can let our guard down, we can go "soft". In typing that, I think of AJ from The Walking Dead and his insistence of keeping his guard up so to not go soft. Carl from the Comics, I forget what issue he says it, and I'm paraphrasing, but I think he mentions how being inside walls can make you soft? It can make you lose that edge, that survival instinct, it erodes when there's no threat. That can easily apply to Joel, or for any character living in an apocalypse, they can be an absolute hardass that is so set in their ways, but exposure to someone or something that means a lot to them, it can break down that wall, probably not immediately, but give it a few years? They can lose that edge, and that could be good for them, and could be what seals their fate. You may not agree with that, but I think that is the most logical explanation for established character traits to be eroded over time. The Joel in the second game isn't the same Joel as the first game, the Joel in Part II is a product of his experience in the first game, an evolution, it took the experience he experienced to become who he is in Part II, was his actions in Part II in character with the Joel that is in Part II? I think that's a question that should be taken into consideration.
though I will say, and I mean no offense when I say it, you seem to be getting very defensive over a game you haven't played
None taken so don't worry, I just think the backlash is blown out of proportion, I'm not white-knuckling over the backlash, it has its funny side, but the "this is the end of the world as we know it" reaction that it got, that led to death threats, that led to harassment, both of which I found out was going on since Left Behind and it's controversial kiss, is a bit over the top, and a bit concerning to see such open attacks on devs and people that identify with Ellie and support her sexuality, it's inexcusable and worrying that is the way.
You mention Druckmann being smug in interviews later in your comment, but I'll address it here as I read up on how he handled the controversy of Left Behind... he didn't care about the backlash, he stood his ground, and called out a double standard that some of the most vocal opposition of Ellie's sexuality held, if it were a lad, nobody would try to dismiss the obvious thing to take away of a kiss being shared. If Druckmann wants to have a laugh, he can have at it, if he doesn't want to cave to a reactionary mob that wasn't going to take any answer or justification he provided for his creative decisions, I think that's all fair, if he is confident in his product and what he and the team made, especially the team, then I think that's good on him, though it doesn't excuse the crunch in any way, shape or form.
I don't think most people have argued that some of these were necessarily bad ideas. Even some of the more critical analyzers of the game can see what they were trying to do. But like how Superman telling Batman to save Martha ends his hatred for him, the problem is in how it was executed.
I believe I made this comparison in my original review of the game back in the TLOU thread (if you go back you can find it where I go into spoilers and stuff, but overall, I gave it a 4/10 if I recall correctly), and since you did seem to know about the major death, then I'll bring it up again here. This would have been, at least to me, the equivalent of Lee surviving everything in Season 1, he and Clem escape from the Stranger and Savannah, spend all that time together afterwards, only for Lee to get shot by Michelle instead of Omid at the start of Season 2. That's how Joel's death felt. More than likely, had this been how S2 started, most would have been pissed, and rightfully so, because even though it's bold and risky, it also feels tone-deaf and undercuts the original.
How so? I'd agree with bold and risky, it was both, but how does it undercut the original? Had Lee been killed off in that manner, I'd be a liar if I said I wouldn't be upset, I would, tremendously, but I'd see it sets up a storyline that taps into the humanity of Clementine and if she can retain it when she lost someone so close to her in that brutal of a fashion. I suspect that what happens with Joel, pushes Ellie to the darkest depths, in that her thirst for revenge caused her to lose who she was, and who Joel wanted her to be. The revenge aspect would also play in with Abby, who sees that her vengeance caused that never-ending hunt from Ellie to avenge Joel. Establishing that as the core motivation and theme at the very start, you go on that journey with the characters, doing it in the name of revenge, but taking a step back, when all is said and done, maybe it wasn't worth pursuing, the point is that revenge is destructive, not only does it harm those around us, it causes us to lose ourselves.
The issue is not that Joel died, hell, people were speculating that for years, even before the reveal trailer and certainly before the leaks. The issue was just, and it goes back to my original point, the execution being flawed. That is the ultimate problem for me and many others with the game, the ideas are there and it could have been done well. Similar to something like ANF, an interesting concept with good ideas, that failed because it wasn't executed properly.
Yeah I remember Dekon used to do those videos theorizing that. But what causes it to fail? What about it was executed so poorly? Establishing and nailing that the game is going to break players emotionally, with something that is going to break players emotionally and establishing that theme: revenge. It gives the game a point, a purpose, a direction to go. Doing what they did, it sure as hell worked, what happened with Joel, that pushed both Ellie and the player in their objectives, from beginning, right up until the end.
Again, this is why I referenced The Last Jedi, a movie so divisive that it's either beloved or despised. No middle ground, it has to be one of the two extremes. I think you see that in the audience scores on a site like Metacritic (which already removed negative reviews, both legitimate and those just review bombing the game)
Is there any legitimacy to Metacritic removing valid critique of the game? I know they wiped a lot of reviews because of review bombing, I'd like to add that the console wars probably played into that too, where Xbox fans went after a PlayStation exclusive that was the biggest Playstation IP and contended with Halo for the most impactful of IP from both Xbox and PlayStation, obviously that isn't valid, or provide anything substantial, other than being a console wars thing. I just think mentioning the removal of legitimate reviews implies a sinister motive to keep reviews that didn't approve of the game to a minimum when there may be no evidence at all to suggest that.
Honestly, my 4/10 is the closest thing to a middle you might get. Certain websites, because of their demographics, audiences, and other variables, are going to offer different perspectives. And I would more than likely guarantee that the crowd on Twitter, and other sites like Tumblr, were probably a crowd that was more favorable to the game than, let's say, the crowd on YouTube or Reddit. Now each website will have it's outsiders (those on Twitter lambasting the game, those on YouTube praising it to the heavens), but the ultimate point here is the world exists outside of just one echo-chamber. Going off of what one of these websites says and never looking outside of it, or worse, immediately calling anything that opposes one particular side as either woke/bigoted and castigating any arguments as one of these two blanket terms, can and will cause more division.
Why's that do you think? Why do you think Twitter and Tumblr would be more favourable than Reddit and YouTube? What suggests that? Those two platforms specifically, why them? As you said, you're not going to get a platform that's exclusively one way about the game, there's going to be a group present that feels another way, I'm paraphrasing, but that's more or less what you said. Regarding the point of calling either side of the fence in who likes/dislikes the game as woke or bigoted, it's usually the "woke!" chants that are the loudest, and in certain spaces, occupy the most space in regions of the community across the internet where one should not venture to, far exceeding the number of times a bigot is called a bigot. Are there people that go full blown reactionary and just shout "You bigot" with little to set them off? Yes, they're children, not worth getting upset over a 14 year old saying mean things and complaining about it, that's reactionary. But labelling something woke, not that it's inherently a bad thing, the word has a pretty decent original meaning, that using it as an insult to ridicule a progressive project, it's a bit silly and like... so what if a game is woke? If someone is bigoted though, that is a problem though, it just is, if someone is "woke", I mean, alright? Good on them? For me personally I don't get too fussed if I see something labelled "woke" I actually get a bit giddy, because it's a weird "own" and it encourages me to check it out, Nintendo has that seal of quality on the back of their games, seeing those comments are like a seal of quality for me so I jump into it. If something being "woke" is what pushes people to voluntarily exclude themselves from something, doesn't make the "woke" the problem if what meets the criteria for woke is what pushes them away. It's a weird one.
Never said you did. However, women being the playable characters, from all available evidence, wasn't that huge of an issue, especially for Ellie. Considering how beloved Ellie was in TLOU and how much fans had come to love and care for her, why would they have been against her being the playable character in the next game? They weren't, they welcomed it. Sure some might have been upset over not playing as Joel, but that's not directed as hate towards Ellie or sexism, they just liked playing as Joel
Of course not for Ellie, but I wasn't specifically going for Ellie, comparing the two protagonists, Ellie and Abby, Abby got more of the backlash without question. And not just because of her actions in the game, but because rumours of her being transgender, being a much bigger build than the average woman causing that, mixed in with her actions in the game, pushed a narrative that Naughty Dog was pushing an anti-male agenda when they weren't, fuelling the fires even more. But on the topic of Ellie, and backlash, she did garner plenty of it for being openly lesbian in said promotional material that confirmed she is a lesbian. Where is that backlash? Fortunately, majority of people didn't actually have a problem with it, so the woke chants were drowned out by people excited for the game. People did welcome it, majority of people did, that is correct, did the reactionary crowd welcome it? They didn't. And look, I understand people being upset for not playing as Joel, that's fair enough, I don't think expressing that gets anyone labelled as "sexist" or hate, they'll get an opinion from another person on why they agree that they preferred playing as Joel, or why it may be interesting to play as Ellie.
There's people that enjoyed playing as Lee or Javi over Clementine, that's not sexism at play, it's just what they prefer. But there really weren't that many people saying I don't want to play as Clementine, nor was there for Ellie
Right, and that's fine, no qualms with people preferring to play as Lee or Javier over Clementine because they prefer them, and yeah, there wasn't that many people saying they don't want to play as Clementine or Ellie in their respective games, that crowd is a vocal minority, that's the point, the whole "go woke go broke" sentiment, it's a vocal minority, not representative of the majority, but since it's a minority, why are you defending it "to prove a point"? What point is there to prove? Majority of players welcome what is considered "progressive" like having a female lead, or seeing an LGBTQIA+ character, a minority doesn't, you acknowledge that vocal minority I am referring to, is idiotic, and fair play, but see, realistically, that vocal minority, while being a minority, is still rather problematic, with messaging that makes up for the small size of the group, that causes rifts, or division, stoking the flames. "This game wants you to kill white men as a rumoured transgender woman and make you think white men are inferior", sounds pretty silly on paper, hard to believe that can be bought into, but it is, just reword it so it can play on emotions, and hey presto, that's problematic, and propaganda to scapegoat and rally together individuals that'll take measures to see that it fails.
You're trying to argue that it having female protagonists is the controversy, when the major point of my argument is that it wasn't.
The controversy is who the female protagonists are and what they represent or were falsely made to represent, Ellie being a lesbian character, that did draw criticism as pushing an agenda, Abby possessing a very impressive physique that was "unrealistic" for the average woman, so the logical conclusion? She's transgender, and that was controversial, but she's not transgender, didn't stop that being pushed anyways, all for the sake of finding something to pin against the same and to use for the narrative of it "pushing agendas"
She gets put through some really bad shit, and the issue is most of it was not through fault of her own making. While she made a couple of decisions that prompted some of it, in large part, it comes back to stuff that she had no control over, like the major driver of the entire plot.
And that is tragic, it makes you feel for Ellie, you are left rooting for her, sympathizing with her, even though it may not be fault that she got sucked into and suffered because of stuff that she had no control over, she is still sucked into it because she may have ties to whatever happened, if it were her relationship with Joel, it's the pursuit of revenge for what happened to Joel that puts her through that wringer.
So when you have a lot of people sticking up for Ellie, defending Ellie, supporting Ellie after playing the game, saying she didn't deserve it, forgive me if I don't believe sexism or an anti-woke sentiment is a major driver in some of the game's criticisms
Alright, but it's certainly one of the loudest criticisms, one that certainly does quite well when there's potential for revenue, like YouTube, a couple of examples being The Quartering and Geeks and Gamers, sure they may be outnumbered by the majority of people that don't use "woke" as a criticism, but they're a tight-knit community, that'll jump on the chance to bash it for being "woke" with rhetoric that seeks only to divide. Both of those guys are tossers, with no idea what they're on about 99% of the time, and only in it for the sweet sweet moolah.
Looking at the video on YouTube, likes far outweigh any dislikes (speaking of which, get ready for those to go away soon, fucking YouTube). Sure some hate, but it was about 5 people, and most of the fanbase defended the scene. The most hate the kiss got was from a character in the game, who is in the game for 20 seconds, exists for no other reason than to be a homophobic prick, and served no other purpose. So I don't see it as her relationship drew criticism, I saw a lot of people either accept it or love it (my opinion, it was fine. I actually thought Ellie and Riley was a bit better even though that was only in a DLC and not a full fledged game like her and Dina, but overall it was good. They had some good moments together, I just wish that Dina was a bit more involved and we got to see more of it).
That's cool, shows that the vast majority are pretty cool with it, it sure makes those that aren't cool with it are pretty unreasonable right? As for the homophobic character you mentioned, I just had to look into it, my curiosity got the best of me, and yeah he's a bit of a knob, but isn't that how reactionaries that shriek about stuff being "woke" appear to normal people that are genuinely fine with it? Don't they appear just like the old man that is being homophobic? Just being loud and insulting towards two people that happen to lesbian expressing an intimate moment right in front of him? In that scene, we can tell that the people that take issue with his brash comments are rightly outraged, Joel pushes him, Ellie asks him what he said. If we apply that to real life, then I think it's inexcusable for that homophobic man to shriek about it, and unimaginable to paint those that oppose him as being just as bad as him for not taking his shit.
And that's fine if you prefer Ellie and Riley, that's totally cool with me and fair that you wanted to see Dina be a bit more involved, fair enough.
Oh no, it definitely was. I mean, come on, she's built like a fucking tank. But along with that, I'd say it was also due to Sony. They've got a reputation for coming down on their developers when it comes to nudity in their games, and the amount of censorship they've included is on par with a 4Kids anime dub.
She's a brute, I gotta see if I can get a copy of her training regimen, if the results are that, I want in and I want in now. And your comment on 4Kids, reminded me of Yu-Gi-Oh and the designs of many iconic cards, Dark Magician Girl, Harpie Ladies, being changed in the dub.
Yet, for some reason, Naughty Dog was given the green light when it comes to this scene, it's just bizarre, and honestly, really funny. It's just so awkward and clumsy in how it's done. It comes right out of nowhere, while also simultaneously being cliche in its setup, and (slight spoiler) the male participant is actively cheating on his pregnant girlfriend. And it's not even something like he didn't know she was pregnant, she had an incredibly visible belly and was several months along. Not to mention that, earlier in the game, said pregnant girlfriend goes on a dangerous mission with them, where they fight through several enemy filled areas, and is jumping and running around guns blazing (yes, this is something that actually happens in the game).
Alright, now that's a bit weird.
We're approaching Life is Strange levels of hilarity, that's how ridiculous it is, and honestly, I fucking love it. I mean, I kind of checked out at that point and was just trying to get to the end, so honestly, I embrace the goofiness.
Life Is Strange really isn't that bad, played through the first game and Before The Storm, they were fun, and had me on the verge of tears, like I did cringe at character dialogue in those games, but they're teens, as a teenager, you are cringy, I was certainly cringe, it may be painstaking to go back to a point like that but we've all went through it.
I don't know, I'm looking at those comments and it seems fine to me. People praising Clementine, arguing for representation to be natural, and acknowledging there should be more female leads and that the lack of them shouldn't be glossed over even if other series have them. The most critical comment in that thread simply says we shouldn't over-praise fictional characters as role models. I also found the original Tweet from Telltale with the article, and yes, there are a couple negative ones, but even then, 1. None of it is hate towards her as a character, 2. There were more praise comments than critical comments
Oh yeah certainly, this was a popular thing, the majority of people actually supported it, and rightfully so, and a couple of negative ones? Not exactly, there's still a chunk of negative comments under that tweet where they link the Eurogamer article. They stood their ground, may come across as smug or arrogant to some, but they stood their ground, what they posted was relatively harmless, Clementine is an inspiration to the groups she represents along with the groups she doesn't, but because the article speaks about her being an inspiration to the groups she does represent, it's brushed under the rug with comments like "Come on guys, she represents us all, no need to focus on the groups that don't get enough representation" when nobody ignores her being an inspiration to all but specifically outline how she is an icon to people of colour or those who are LGBTQIA+, obviously I'm being quite nice with my phrasing, some have been a lot more... vulgar and a bit odd with their response to it, like they're under threat.
and 3. Even some of the critical comments were just saying that they don't care about her sex and just like her as a character. Frankly, I don't see a problem with that last one, should that not be the standard we have? Who cares if it's a male or a female, why is one better than the other? My love for Clem (before the comic) didn't come from her being a girl, it came because of her journey. It shouldn't matter, and yet, for some people on both sides, it does matter. One side argues that having women makes it woke, another tries to make it a huge deal rather than treating it as a normal thing and judging the quality on its merits. I find both of these viewpoints wrong
Not the most critical of comments under that tweet, the most critical were "keep politics out of our games" like that's political because Clementine has the capacity to inspire everyone including specific groups
Nobody is saying one is better than the other, literally nobody is saying that, only those that are looking for a reaction, it's of absolutely no substance, literally an attempt to play on emotions of those from the opposite sex, that's child's play. And sure, it's fine for you and me, both being males, and appreciating Clementine's Story for her Journey and experiences, what makes it matter though, is she not the damsel in distress that she was in The Walking Dead: Season One, that is an overused trope, but one that works in Season One because she is a child learning to live in that apocalypse, that when she loses Lee, she is thrown into tough situations, and overcomes them, and grows into a capable survivor, she is an inspiration to everyone, but she stands out, as she goes against the status quo of the industry, she is an inspiration to all, including people of colour and LGBTQIA+, nobody is disputing her appeal from all walks of life and ethnicities.
One side argues that having women makes it woke, another tries to make it a huge deal rather than treating it as a normal thing and judging the quality on its merits. I find both of these viewpoints wrong
It's easy for it to look like a big deal when so many people think it's cool, it is treated normally, and the quality is judged based on its merits, it being considered cool by majority of people and it standing out for being unique doesn't mean it avoids criticism by them.
You find both viewpoints to be wrong, one's just bashing for being "woke" the other is acknowledging it for being a relatively unique thing compared to other stuff and still finding room to criticise it and not let it being unique factor into whether or not they'll critique it.
I've acknowledged that there are idiots out there that accuse anything remotely "progressive" as woke. Never said it doesn't exist, and more times than not, it's ridiculous. And while I certainly do not think that the problem is as bad as these people online make it, and I certainly do not object to representation and inclusion so long as it's done well, I'm also not going to deny that some people will include it for ulterior reasons.
What is representation done well though? And for ulterior motives, what exactly? The elephant in the room is that big corporations will try to capitalize on that audience with specific merchandise, profiting off it, but the groups themselves, that's hardly the case.
Whether that be to get some extra recognition or credibility (didn't Rise of Skywalker have some background lesbian kiss that was visible enough for people to see and they could get recognition, but in the background enough that it could be cut out in certain markets like China), or perhaps even hide behind it as a shield. And I certainly do see this type of behavior from fans of certain properties,
That's not the fault of those who are represented by the scene, I think it's maddening that it was cut in China and other markets, and I think the changing of the poster from Disney to make John Boyega much less prominent on it is stupid, we can attach the blame to Disney though, I don't see fans use it as a shield to deflect criticism of it.
so the fact that you say this:
Nobody uses diversity and representation to justify shortcomings of a game...nobody is using it as a shield to ignore other issues that exist in a game or a form of media that include representation or diversity.
is quite shocking. Do you truly believe that
I do indeed, it's relatively a non-issue, I don't see what's shocking about that statement.
while there's an anti-woke crowd that perceives anything remotely inclusive as going woke, there isn't also a crowd that will go out and argue any criticism of a project is just due to it having diversity? That it's actually rooted in either some internalized bias or subconscious bigotry, not because someone just doesn't like something or is critical of it? What's the saying, every action has an equal and opposite reaction. I have seen and experienced it, and so have others.
Oh I'd imagine there is a crowd that does that, it's just nowhere near as prevalent or loud as it is made out to be, besides, they're edgy teens that have had one two many cans of Monster Energy, no point in letting them ruin your day. If I had to take a guess on how many do that, I'd estimate that those who spend their time to deflect actual criticism with "No you're just bigoted" are like 7 or 8 people, who aren't worth letting in your head rent free because they said mean things that don't meaningfully impact you or others.
This was a contributor to IGN on Twitter in response to the criticism of the Abby sex scene:
Except that isn't the criticism she's addressing though, she's not saying that in response to it being an awkward scene, that's just poor framing of what she actually said and what she meant, that sex scene drew controversy because Abby goes against the traditional appearance of a woman, her appearance isn't sexualized, so having her getting booked in a scene when she is the size that she is, that she was considered "unnatural" and "unrealistic", and that was the controversy. I'm not sure why you're trying to frame her comment to mean one thing, when it doesn't even mean that, that's dishonest framing of the actual criticism she addresses with her tweet, in that scene was lambasted for Abby not being the traditional woman physically so seeing her get booked was what triggered people.
Even Angry Joe, a pretty left leaning reviewer, opened his review by saying "Before everyone rushes to call me sexist, transphobic, intolerant..." For some, criticism of the game means you are a bigot.
Discourse surrounding the game when it released was very spicy, so to ensure that he immediately wasn't susceptible to attacks from the jump for liking/disliking the game. And for some? Less than 10 people at most who are stuck on social media and want to be edgy, criticising the game would make you a bigot in their eyes, but why give them your energy? They're children, hit the block button and move onto someone else to chat to about the game.
I don't hate the game because I found certain parts of the story bad, it's because I'm homophobic. And then when I say I'm not and try to prove it, it either gets called token gestures or inherent bias. How can one even argue against that?
You give them way too much head room mate, why let the children get to you emotionally when that's literally what they want?
One time in particular, I said that I found Ellie and Dina's relationship lacking and under-developed in certain areas, and I was called homophobic by someone. But that doesn't make sense because I think the game should have had MORE scenes of Ellie and Dina together to make it better. Didn't matter, the fact that I didn't buy it right off the bat was enough.
Alright but if you weren't being homophobic and said you found the relationship under-developed in certain areas, and the response was you being called homophobic, you know you weren't, why get worked up over it when you know you weren't being homophobic?
In a show called The Dragon Prince, I once made a post saying how a female character named Claudia had the best arc going forward in the series and could be the show's best character. I was called a sexist because I argued that she could be going down a dark path that turns her into a villain (this is, in fact, a possible direction the show is going in) and that I can't handle women in powerful positions or that I didn't believe women could be in powerful fields without being evil. Didn't matter that I also said she could get a huge redemption arc which could also be interesting to see, I was a sexist in her eyes.
Why are you letting these people get to you they aren't going to cancel you Cancel culture does not exist. It's a Boogeyman.
Doesn't help when the creators and journalists also try to play this game. They'll cherry pick some comments and then use it to denigrate any critic as one of them.
Not hard to find nasty comments when they're copied and pasted everywhere, labelling a bigot for being a bigot is fair, as is labelling a transphobe a transphobe, a homophobe labelled a homophobe, or a racist as a racist, if you're offended that they label those that behave that way for behaving that way, I'd reconsider who I associate with, and maybe, they've got a victim mentality? "These trans people are a threat to my existence, it's unfair that I get called transphobic because I don't believe they should exist", it's the embodiment of that meme with the guy on the bike, thrusting a stick into his wheel and blaming a separate group for what happened to him.
And frankly, none of the stuff the anti-woke crowd complained about for TLOU II had anything to do with the stuff I mentioned (another reason for including it). Most of the anti-woke stuff was towards another character, but all of the stuff I mentioned was used by the other crowd to imply that all criticisms of the game was rooted in sexism, homophobia, etc.
Or... and the most likely thing that happened was that the criticism that was sexist and homophobic were shunned, you make out that the slightest criticism against the game is going to get you put on a list where every single edgy teen is going to hunt you down for thinking differently, that is a very paranoid way of thinking, and I can assure you, that isn't what happens, or happened. Mellow out a bit man.
Didn't matter that we loved Ellie in the first game, or her reveal in Left Behind, or that we had no problems with another famous Naughty Dog series using female protagonists in an entry (Uncharted: The Lost Legacy).
It's been established that her reveal in Left Behind was controversial and felt backlash, claiming that the "gays" are taking over everything, even virtual safe spaces like games. Plenty of people had problems with it, not most people, but then again, that shows the anti-woke crowd as the minority, not representative of everyone as is claimed, because most were cool with the reveal.
Who's "we" in this instance? If you're associating yourself with people that did take issue with it, and took it as Naughty Dog going full woke, maybe reconsider who you choose to associate with, I wouldn't and don't associate myself with reactionaries that play on emotions and call others "big silly poopoo headed bigot" because I don't do what they do, nor have I engaged with them, why lump yourself in with them with "we"?
I'll point out, that crowd that took issue with Uncharted being "woke", a vocal minority, still quite loud to other voices that are shared.
Both of these sides are guilty of repugnant behavior, but at least I can acknowledge that, and I feel as though you're either trying to deny that it happens, or you're shielding yourself from it.
You feel that I'm denying it, or shielding myself from it? you genuinely feel that way? at least once or twice in my comment, maybe more than that, I stated, acknowledged that the audience that blast anyone who dares criticise the game are automatically bigots do exist, but it's like, less than a classroom full of people, that want an emotional response, and by the sounds of it, you have given them that, and it continues to occupy your mind, why give a toss man? Anti-woke, that's pretty hard to avoid when it's copied and pasted, and actually does more to halt any form of progress in comparison to an edgy teen saying mean things that are laughably stupid that to dwell on it, is a remarkable waste of time and effort.
I'd say those pushing for diversity and representation are making much less of a mess now. Debatable.
What's there to debate? What mess is being caused by being inclusive?
It's true that the anti-woke crowd is toxic, they overly complain online, sometimes even send death threats (which is just so fucking stupid and should be taken seriously), and should just get a life.
Glad that you agree
But I find that the actions of certain people on the other side help drive not only the reactions from them, but end up supporting its growth.
Not really man, it's the existence of diversity that's the problem with these folks. Its continued existence causes them to get louder, and with effective, manipulative messaging, they can rally others to their cause, some things just are black and white.
If you just keep bullying and bullying people, insinuating things that they aren't, and act smug in the process of doing so, how does that not create more toxicity and division?
Whoa whoa whoa, hold on, holding people accountable and calling out wrongful behaviour, that's bullying? It may feel like it when nobody else shares a toxic sentiment and think it's wrong for one or several to be intolerant, intolerance shouldn't have to be tolerated, confronting it, deals with the problem. As you said yourself, every action has a positive and negative reaction. The division itself exists because of diversity, having others be around to witness the mask slip and the self-report, exposes that.
Why should anyone be bothered for ripping into a group that is hateful at its core, and seeks only to cause a divide by calling progressive content as "woke propaganda that'll by the end of western civilization"
That's why both are buffoons, and the faster we realize this and don't pile onto extremes because of social media mobs, and we start promoting cooler heads than the most toxic and loud-mouthed people, this issue will get worse.
I agree, but see the majority of people have cool heads, just have little patience for what is obvious bigotry, when you've got a couple of talking heads that slam the "woke", and are "against this evil agenda" and promote themselves as the reasonable ones, more often than not they're full of it and only present a radical, weird justification for it and their audience take that and spout hateful nonsense, maybe they aren't as reasonable as they portray. Maybe they are toxic, and what causes division, instead of people calling out problematic behaviour and the odd edgelord on social media counting on their words to get an emotional reaction, is not indicative of the majority, and maybe anti-woke is problematic and the bigger evil here, maybe those who are "reasonable" use victimhood to rally their supporters to protest diversity. "They hate me because I'm reasonable and use facts and logic, not because I said bad things", there's some food for thought.
regarding characters going against their traits from the first game, is that not just a progression of the character? Like during a lapse of… more time, we aren't going to remain the same, I may not be the same person 10 years down the line, maybe I won't be the same person in 5, people change depending on their environment, if the conditions suit, they'll adapt and change.
If we were just talking about stuff like outlooks, beliefs, views, etc., then you would be for the most part right. Obviously as time goes on and we mature and face experiences that question or validate previously held notions, our viewpoints are bound to change. People move across the spectrum, from left, to right, to center, and so on. This is not what I'm referring to. And again, it's hard to truly go in depth with it without going too hard into spoilers (though I will say, and I mean no offense when I say it, you seem to be getting very defensive over a game you have… [view original content]
One of the shows production companies, Silvergate Media, put out a press statement regarding some promotions in the company and it included information about the Hilda movie releasing sometime this year (final paragraph under Monique Simmon) and that season 3 would be the final season (on the paragraph about Bryan Korn).
Honestly it makes sense, I'm pretty sure by the end of the movie they'll have already adapted the entire book series. It'll be interesting to see the third season be, as far as I'm aware, entirely original.
Alright fair enough then, I'll ask then, if you were a designer on the game, or implementing one or several mechanics into the game to improve the gameplay loop, what would you bring in?
Give me at least 5 years and a design team and I’ll get back to you.
There are so many game sequels with much less development time that refined and expanded their predecessor’s gameplay in incredible ways. Batman: Arkham City, Kingdom Hearts 2, Alan Wake: American Nightmare, Portal 2, among countless others.
To answer off the top of my head though: more advanced crafting, more advanced combat, different routes to reach objectives based on what gear you crafted to traverse the area, dialogue options, more lighthearted mini games like in Left Behind, heavily destructible environments like in Battlefield: Bad Company.
(It has been a long time since I played though so some stuff might be present in the game that I can’t remember.)
Was the gameplay really that much of a turn-off? For what reason?
I was bored playing it.
I've fair idea as to why Abby is considered unlikeable but surely there are moments that show her as likeable, and it's a clinging to the events that came earlier into the game that hamper those scenes that show her maybe in a much better light?
Sure the game paints her in a more sympathetic light later on in the story since that was Neil’s vision. What I meant was I don’t find her as an interesting character or one with a lot of charisma. She’s kinda bland in my opinion. I feel like if she had a stronger personality the game’s narrative would’ve worked for more people and would’ve been a lot more impactful.
All this Wolf 2 discussion, yet no one has mentioned Telltale on Twitter has said development is going well and that 2020 was seemingly dedicated to making the core assets in the engine which 110% totally 100% means Wolf 2 at the VGAs.
All this Wolf 2 discussion, yet no one has mentioned Telltale on Twitter has said development is going well and that 2020 was seemingly dedicated to making the core assets in the engine which 110% totally 100% means Wolf 2 at the VGAs.
I would actually say it's not out of the realm of possibility to see Wolf 2 at TGA this year, still somewhat unlikely, but I could see possibly getting another short teaser.
All this Wolf 2 discussion, yet no one has mentioned Telltale on Twitter has said development is going well and that 2020 was seemingly dedicated to making the core assets in the engine which 110% totally 100% means Wolf 2 at the VGAs.
I would actually say it's not out of the realm of possibility to see Wolf 2 at TGA this year, still somewhat unlikely, but I could see possibly getting another short teaser.
Sorry to hear that , my dad had a secret life when he was a cop he would always paint a pretty picture of himself in front of his friends and and elevated ego he had cheated my mom several times during his marriage with my mom for thirty years my mom was a stay at home triditonal housewife and dad would just come home from work expecting dinner on the plate every time but I started having suspicions about him back in 2008 like he’s a different person and 09 when’s down hill .
He left stuff broken in the house and my mom did all the work with the divorce players making sure I go to school etc.
What was the biggest betrayal was he separated me and my sisteter which we always hang around together.
But now , he’s living a fake life remarried with e pe I’ve cars and a boat.
All I can say is nightmare but three years later things started too cool off and here on out i moved to a different environment and I don’t feel intimidated.
So I had a discussion with my step-dad and we talked about the divorce between him and my mother. My mother had an affair with one of the em… moreployees from her work and now she is living with him. My step was very upset and that is because after everything he has done for the whole family, she decided to humiliate him.
He told me how much my mother refused to appreciate his effort and sacrifices. I honestly don't know who to believe right now because my sister also offended him with stuff, despite the things he did for her. He doesn't exactly know what he did to deserve this treatment. I can't tell either. I mean I do remember moments where he lost his temper, for either good reasons or some flimsy ones but I did get over them for a while.
I sobbed a lot and I am not sure what to do. I either keep staying out of this situation or speak with my real dad, as he suggested me to, and talk about his divorce experience. I think my mother fucked … [view original content]
I'm like 98% sure that's the bottom half of his face... he's just crouching down.
Still didn't stop people from assuming I guess.
I originally posted the tweet from the official account, but they removed it and reposted it with this, all smoothed out
Oh, so the Mitchells vs the Machines is getting a DVD/Blu Ray release!
Comes with a bunch of bonus features, a full Dog Cop short, an alternate cut (like the Spider-Verse release) that uses 45-minutes of deleted scenes, plus a bunch more stuff. The director seems really excited about that, and that's nice. Great twitter thread of content here, just click.
I'm like 98% sure that's the bottom half of his face... he's just crouching down.
Still didn't stop people from assuming I guess.
I orig… moreinally posted the tweet from the official account, but they removed it and reposted it with this, all smoothed out
https://twitter.com/hildatheseries/status/1463257135815532545
I don't see what WOLF2 has to do with Deathloop, but sure, I support you in not wanting Deathloop to win.
I haven't played it, but I've heard from some people that it's a bit dissapointing compared to other titles the company has made, and especially with the mediocre reviews the game got at launch, I'm surprised it was nominated so much at the TGAs.
Hoping Big Lady 8 wins too
...oh yeah and I'm super pleased that Hitman 3 just won Best PC Game of the Year for the Golden Joystick Awards, since that was a MAJOR snub IMO
Guess who won GOTY at Golden Joystick Awards.
(Spoiler)
I can die happy now and not worry about The Game Awards cause I can already tell they will pull a TLOU2 on Deathloop.
My intention is to just want Resident Evil Village to win. Even though I never played Deathloop, I would have totally been fine if it won, unless RE8 was released in the same year. From what I have seen so far, Deathloop didn't win my attention. I am not really into those action-heavy FPS games as I used to.
I don't see what WOLF2 has to do with Deathloop, but sure, I support you in not wanting Deathloop to win.
I haven't played it, but I've h… moreeard from some people that it's a bit dissapointing compared to other titles the company has made, and especially with the mediocre reviews the game got at launch, I'm surprised it was nominated so much at the TGAs.
Hoping Big Lady 8 wins too
...oh yeah and I'm super pleased that Hitman 3 just won Best PC Game of the Year for the Golden Joystick Awards, since that was a MAJOR snub IMO
Welp, this Black Friday I got some good deals. Not many games at the top of my list are on sale, but I did manage to get Persona 5 Royal for 35$, and the new Guardians of the Galaxy for 31$ thanks to a 40$ sale and a 10$ trade-in game. Impressive deal since this thing came out 4 weeks ago for 80 dollars.
my girlfriend went on a trip to hawaii and honestly im super stoked for her but she keeps sending me pictures of the sunny and beautiful islands and i just look out the window at work and its just fuckin so grey and bleak outside lmaooo
honestly if psychonauts 2 wins i will be just as hyped as if re8 wins. those dudes at double fine are mega talented and worked for a long ass time making that game play, look and sound like god. they deserve a goty award just for the fact that it came out finished and fantastic after all the trouble it had during its long ass dev time
I support you in not wanting Deathloop to win.
My intention is to just want Resident Evil Village to win. Even though I never played… more Deathloop, I would have totally been fine if it won, unless RE8 was released in the same year. From what I have seen so far, Deathloop didn't win my attention. I am not really into those action-heavy FPS games as I used to.
honestly if psychonauts 2 wins i will be just as hyped as if re8 wins. those dudes at double fine are mega talented and worked for a long as… mores time making that game play, look and sound like god. they deserve a goty award just for the fact that it came out finished and fantastic after all the trouble it had during its long ass dev time
Comments
I mean PewDiePie did a video on that GTA Definitive Edition lol still went back to watch it and laugh of how stupid the company is being on this game. Like even the mods are wayyy better. Man, Rockstar games,CD Project Red,And other companies. Man,it is sad to see tbh.
Since The Wolf Among Us 2 is only thing we can at least talk about until whatever news on it. Comes out. We should speculate on what kind of season 2 we are getting. No idea. But,i wonder if we would go to The Farm on that season 2. I mean it seems interesting to chat about.
Don't worry, I'll get the next one.
Flew back home to visit family and I finally get to eat proper Malaysian food again
I actually noted that during its release last year, as I said, haven't touched the game, but with it being a big IP, it would of course make the rounds all across social media, and the gameplay being relatively the same was a criticism I noticed, but not a major one. Good to hear that there was slight deviations that added a challenge to the player.
Now the crunch part... I'm aware of that, and honestly, I condemn that, absolutely and totally condemn it, the only problem I've got with The Last of Us Part II winning the vast amount of awards that it has won is that it rewarded a problem that plagues the industry from top to bottom: overworking staff, taking away their leisure time and stripping them of a work-life balance.
I've kinda went off based on a fairly brief part of your comment, but I'll return to your main part, the artstyle you described doesn't sound too bad, actually sounds pretty cool and fitting, that's just me though.
I don't feel the need to comment on the first four sentences of that paragraph, I think what you said is fair enough, regarding characters going against their traits from the first game, is that not just a progression of the character? Like during a lapse of time, we aren't going to remain the same, I may not be the same person 10 years down the line, maybe I won't be the same person in 5, people change depending on their environment, if the conditions suit, they'll adapt and change. Maybe the characters in the second game aren't the same people they were in the first game? Maybe it took the experience of the first game and the aftermath for them to let their hair down and change so that established traits are toned down and are a product of their past? As for where arcs end up or the payoff, can't say too much on that for reasons I've mentioned, I haven't played the game. But for players of both games, the context is there, it's not unreasonable to expect a change when you've been through the wringer and evaluate what it took to get to where you are now, and if it was worth it.
I understand a key theme in the game is Revenge, and I think that too maybe extends to the player, not just the characters. Like despite not playing the game, I'm familiar with some of the key plot points, that big character death at the start, I know who it's referring to, that WTF? moment towards the end involving Ellie, I think I've got an idea what that is, but the game is vast, so those couple of big moments in the game are more or less the only stuff I know about it, and I didn't feel they were exactly bad decisions, I think it just really has to be examined to understand why those events occurred or the reasons behind the decisions.
Hopefully, and you may disagree, but I think The Last of Us Part II will probably stand that test too, it is and was easy to take note of the "Go woke, go broke, quit shoving your agenda down my throat" nonsense that was shared, but that was more due to just how loud it was, and it being platformed and shared across the internet as a "What?" in response to how ludicrous some comments were made in spite of the game. But I do recall seeing glowing praise, not just from outlets, but many, many fans of the series. I have a private Twitter account, I just use it to follow gaming stuff, I don't engage in conversation, send messages, I just like to scroll through my feed to see what's happening in the industry, when the game released I saw so, so much glowing praise from fans of the series, so the point I'm making is, just because the noise is loud, doesn't mean the noise is being made by many, I'd wager that there is more that like than dislike The Last of Us Part II, does it sound bonkers on paper? Absolutely, it's the loudest voices that get the most eyes, but it's not most of the people. Quite a lot of people I've encountered because my feed was curated to games described it as their GOTY, and perhaps the best game they've ever touched, with that I think we'll still be hearing about the game years into the future.
Pretty sure that Ellie being revealed as being lesbian was quite a controversial moment in Left Behind, so I wouldn't exactly say people did not seem to care, they did, with a teen being in a relationship that wasn't heterosexual at that time, which is only a few years back but shows just how much the world has progressed in terms of accepting LGBTQIA+ relationships, that relationship involving Ellie was a controversial one, one that was deemed "pushing an agenda", that is the weird thing.
Most people were very accepting of it, like, good on them, but I think it's inaccurate to say that fans didn't care, because fans did, in the way of being pleased to see a beloved character be happy and with someone they love and vice versa, and others, in the way of making 15 videos talking about how a scene where two people that aren't in a heterosexual relationship kiss each other is some kind of mass hypnotism that'll lead to the eventual downfall of all civilization.
Yeah, I don't think I mentioned that Ellie specifically being the playable character was the controversy, just that more widely, a female protagonist is more often than not, the controversy, it's perceived as "pushing an agenda", it always has been, that's always been there, but it's drowned out by the majority that say "cool, that's cool" and play a game that has that protagonist. You can bet that Ellie's relationship was definitely what drew criticism, along with, as you mentioned, the fact that she gets put through the worst of it in the game(s).
Do you think that perhaps that's because Abby is just an absolute unit that eats bricks and shits houses, she just goes against the more common or traditional appearance of an average woman? And I dunno if it is the biggest meme, I think the most common meme that I have seen under a post by Naughty Dog is either the Wii Sports golf and the golf club memes, of course you'd see the one of Abby in the scene you described, but the golf club one was the most common meme I saw, that garnered the most engagement, usually in a not so pleasant way. Besides, I don't know why people care if she is getting some action, I suspect if Abby was designed in a more aesthetically pleasing way, and that scene remained in the game, it wouldn't be an issue, I think it would end up being one of the most replayed scenes in the game, that reload from last checkpoint button was getting smashed just like the YouTube like button if I'm being honest.
But they did, they literally harassed Mary Kenney, the Lead Writer for "Suffer The Children", and wrote the Violet and Clementine interactions, and accused her of peddling an agenda. Telltale shared an article on how Clementine is an icon, specifically a feminist icon that can empower people, how Clementine has transcended the Series and become an icon, an example, of how much representation means to people, I'll give a link to that article so you can read it.
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2018-09-10-how-the-walking-dead-gave-birth-to-a-feminist-icon
But the response to it? Volatile, and when Telltale shuttered weeks after that article was shared, "Go woke, go broke" like honestly, is it such a provoking issue? Does it really impact those who aren't for normalizing representation and diversity in the industry? In a meaningful capacity? The sun will still rise tomorrow, we will still wake up and go to work, come home, read a book or go for a run, it is a non-issue.
I'll be honest, personally, how I read your response, to me it seemed like of all the things I said, it was laughing at the "Go woke, go broke" crowd and the freakout that ensues, that bothered you... Why? Do you engage in that? If you do, what are you actually doing? I'm not trying to stir anything here, but the tone I derived from your response to that part of my comment was a lot more defensive than the rest, and then to insist, "No no, others are bad too because they used it to set a standard for what representation and diversity should be in the industry", we can acknowledge the bigger elephant in the room and which one is causing the bigger mess, I'd say those pushing for diversity and representation are making much less of a mess now... As for the group that uses it as a poster for anti-woke, I think we should all have a good long laugh at them, like, a proper "har-har-har". It's not like their campaigns and what they claim will happen actually happens in reality, most people tend to be fairly chuffed with "woke" stuff in games, myself included.
Nobody uses diversity and representation to justify shortcomings of a game, it's just neat to see it normalized, it doesn't make them intellectual buffoons for being chill with the representation and being happy with the representation, nobody is using it as a shield to ignore other issues that exist in a game or a form of media that include representation or diversity. Representation and diversity doesn't bring down games or make them worse. Could storytelling involving these characters be improved? Yes, the only way is up, and it will improve, and I'm all for the medium to improve and tell better stories with people of colour, LGBTQIA+ or others from a different ethnic background to my own, but including them doesn't detract from the experience, it is only a problem for people that have underlying issues with those groups that they wouldn't say out loud in public that need to examine themselves, they aren't intellectuals, they're just buffoons, they're wannabe intellectuals that lack the ability to appropriately analyze media and art, and derive some of the most weirdly insane takes from it.
Anyways, good conversation
Alright fair enough then, I'll ask then, if you were a designer on the game, or implementing one or several mechanics into the game to improve the gameplay loop, what would you bring in? Was the gameplay really that much of a turn-off? For what reason?
I've fair idea as to why Abby is considered unlikeable but surely there are moments that show her as likeable, and it's a clinging to the events that came earlier into the game that hamper those scenes that show her maybe in a much better light?
Not your fault, I think I said way more on the game despite not having played it that revived said wars
Yep, I remember a good number of people being really shitty about it and even saw people trying to justify the kiss as Ellie just being in the moment and kissing a friend to show how much she cares lmao.
There were people on here bitching about Clem being bisexual and how her being one goes against their choices and that they should be allowed to change her sexuality yadayadayada you know the drill.
If we were just talking about stuff like outlooks, beliefs, views, etc., then you would be for the most part right. Obviously as time goes on and we mature and face experiences that question or validate previously held notions, our viewpoints are bound to change. People move across the spectrum, from left, to right, to center, and so on. This is not what I'm referring to. And again, it's hard to truly go in depth with it without going too hard into spoilers (though I will say, and I mean no offense when I say it, you seem to be getting very defensive over a game you haven't played), but I'm more so referring to simple actions and survival tactics that these characters have picked up on, and even showed off in the first game, that are ignored or betrayed here. And from my perspective, it feels as though it was done in order to get the ball rolling and the plot moving forward, as it doesn't contribute to anything else outside of that. If it were to tie into a certain arc, that's one thing. But we're not simply referring to something like how Joel changed because of Ellie from how he started at the beginning of the game and the end in the original, we're talking about actions that are just plain out of character for them. Another character from the first game that makes an appearance in the second game, feels like a different character from the last time we saw them. And since the scene is a flashback in which they appear, it contradicts their actions from the original game.
I don't think most people have argued that some of these were necessarily bad ideas. Even some of the more critical analyzers of the game can see what they were trying to do. But like how Superman telling Batman to save Martha ends his hatred for him, the problem is in how it was executed. I believe I made this comparison in my original review of the game back in the TLOU thread (if you go back you can find it where I go into spoilers and stuff, but overall, I gave it a 4/10 if I recall correctly), and since you did seem to know about the major death, then I'll bring it up again here. This would have been, at least to me, the equivalent of Lee surviving everything in Season 1, he and Clem escape from the Stranger and Savannah, spend all that time together afterwards, only for Lee to get shot by Michelle instead of Omid at the start of Season 2. That's how Joel's death felt. More than likely, had this been how S2 started, most would have been pissed, and rightfully so, because even though it's bold and risky, it also feels tone-deaf and undercuts the original. The issue is not that Joel died, hell, people were speculating that for years, even before the reveal trailer and certainly before the leaks. The issue was just, and it goes back to my original point, the execution being flawed. That is the ultimate problem for me and many others with the game, the ideas are there and it could have been done well. Similar to something like ANF, an interesting concept with good ideas, that failed because it wasn't executed properly. And certain things Neil and others from Naughty Dog did in the aftermath, and how they came off in some interviews or on Twitter certainly didn't help matters. Made them come off as smug and arrogant, which would only go and further embolden the critics, both legitimate and not.
Again, this is why I referenced The Last Jedi, a movie so divisive that it's either beloved or despised. No middle ground, it has to be one of the two extremes. I think you see that in the audience scores on a site like Metacritic (which already removed negative reviews, both legitimate and those just review bombing the game)
Honestly, my 4/10 is the closest thing to a middle you might get. Certain websites, because of their demographics, audiences, and other variables, are going to offer different perspectives. And I would more than likely guarantee that the crowd on Twitter, and other sites like Tumblr, were probably a crowd that was more favorable to the game than, let's say, the crowd on YouTube or Reddit. Now each website will have it's outsiders (those on Twitter lambasting the game, those on YouTube praising it to the heavens), but the ultimate point here is the world exists outside of just one echo-chamber. Going off of what one of these websites says and never looking outside of it, or worse, immediately calling anything that opposes one particular side as either woke/bigoted and castigating any arguments as one of these two blanket terms, can and will cause more division.
Never said you did. However, women being the playable characters, from all available evidence, wasn't that huge of an issue, especially for Ellie. Considering how beloved Ellie was in TLOU and how much fans had come to love and care for her, why would they have been against her being the playable character in the next game? They weren't, they welcomed it. Sure some might have been upset over not playing as Joel, but that's not directed as hate towards Ellie or sexism, they just liked playing as Joel. There's people that enjoyed playing as Lee or Javi over Clementine, that's not sexism at play, it's just what they prefer. But there really weren't that many people saying I don't want to play as Clementine, nor was there for Ellie. As for Abby, while I denounce the death threats she got from certain people because of her character, that main point of criticism in playing her was not "She woman, women bad, fuck wokeism," but because of her actions in the actual game. You're trying to argue that it having female protagonists is the controversy, when the major point of my argument is that it wasn't.
She gets put through some really bad shit, and the issue is most of it was not through fault of her own making. While she made a couple of decisions that prompted some of it, in large part, it comes back to stuff that she had no control over, like the major driver of the entire plot. So when you have a lot of people sticking up for Ellie, defending Ellie, supporting Ellie after playing the game, saying she didn't deserve it, forgive me if I don't believe sexism or an anti-woke sentiment is a major driver in some of the game's criticisms. As for her relationship, I remember when the gameplay trailer came out, and it showed a cutscene of Ellie and Dina dancing and kissing, and it got a lot of praise. Looking at the video on YouTube, likes far outweigh any dislikes (speaking of which, get ready for those to go away soon, fucking YouTube). Sure some hate, but it was about 5 people, and most of the fanbase defended the scene. The most hate the kiss got was from a character in the game, who is in the game for 20 seconds, exists for no other reason than to be a homophobic prick, and served no other purpose. So I don't see it as her relationship drew criticism, I saw a lot of people either accept it or love it (my opinion, it was fine. I actually thought Ellie and Riley was a bit better even though that was only in a DLC and not a full fledged game like her and Dina, but overall it was good. They had some good moments together, I just wish that Dina was a bit more involved and we got to see more of it).
Oh no, it definitely was. I mean, come on, she's built like a fucking tank. But along with that, I'd say it was also due to Sony. They've got a reputation for coming down on their developers when it comes to nudity in their games, and the amount of censorship they've included is on par with a 4Kids anime dub. Yet, for some reason, Naughty Dog was given the green light when it comes to this scene, it's just bizarre, and honestly, really funny. It's just so awkward and clumsy in how it's done. It comes right out of nowhere, while also simultaneously being cliche in its setup, and (slight spoiler) the male participant is actively cheating on his pregnant girlfriend. And it's not even something like he didn't know she was pregnant, she had an incredibly visible belly and was several months along. Not to mention that, earlier in the game, said pregnant girlfriend goes on a dangerous mission with them, where they fight through several enemy filled areas, and is jumping and running around guns blazing (yes, this is something that actually happens in the game). It's just, I'm sorry man, it's so freaking funny. We're approaching Life is Strange levels of hilarity, that's how ridiculous it is, and honestly, I fucking love it. I mean, I kind of checked out at that point and was just trying to get to the end, so honestly, I embrace the goofiness.
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2018-09-10-how-the-walking-dead-gave-birth-to-a-feminist-icon
I don't know, I'm looking at those comments and it seems fine to me. People praising Clementine, arguing for representation to be natural, and acknowledging there should be more female leads and that the lack of them shouldn't be glossed over even if other series have them. The most critical comment in that thread simply says we shouldn't over-praise fictional characters as role models. I also found the original Tweet from Telltale with the article, and yes, there are a couple negative ones, but even then, 1. None of it is hate towards her as a character, 2. There were more praise comments than critical comments, and 3. Even some of the critical comments were just saying that they don't care about her sex and just like her as a character. Frankly, I don't see a problem with that last one, should that not be the standard we have? Who cares if it's a male or a female, why is one better than the other? My love for Clem (before the comic) didn't come from her being a girl, it came because of her journey. It shouldn't matter, and yet, for some people on both sides, it does matter. One side argues that having women makes it woke, another tries to make it a huge deal rather than treating it as a normal thing and judging the quality on its merits. I find both of these viewpoints wrong. I do think the grand majority of people just see her and like her for who she is, but those that try to put an over emphasis on her sex, whether for good or bad reasons, ultimately diminish her and other female characters.
To prove a point. I've acknowledged that there are idiots out there that accuse anything remotely "progressive" as woke. Never said it doesn't exist, and more times than not, it's ridiculous. And while I certainly do not think that the problem is as bad as these people online make it, and I certainly do not object to representation and inclusion so long as it's done well, I'm also not going to deny that some people will include it for ulterior reasons. Whether that be to get some extra recognition or credibility (didn't Rise of Skywalker have some background lesbian kiss that was visible enough for people to see and they could get recognition, but in the background enough that it could be cut out in certain markets like China), or perhaps even hide behind it as a shield. And I certainly do see this type of behavior from fans of certain properties, so the fact that you say this:
is quite shocking. Do you truly believe that, while there's an anti-woke crowd that perceives anything remotely inclusive as going woke, there isn't also a crowd that will go out and argue any criticism of a project is just due to it having diversity? That it's actually rooted in either some internalized bias or subconscious bigotry, not because someone just doesn't like something or is critical of it? What's the saying, every action has an equal and opposite reaction. I have seen and experienced it, and so have others. This was a contributor to IGN on Twitter in response to the criticism of the Abby sex scene:
You don't hate it because it's awkward and adds nothing, you're just a virgin. Even Angry Joe, a pretty left leaning reviewer, opened his review by saying "Before everyone rushes to call me sexist, transphobic, intolerant..." For some, criticism of the game means you are a bigot. I don't hate the game because I found certain parts of the story bad, it's because I'm homophobic. And then when I say I'm not and try to prove it, it either gets called token gestures or inherent bias. How can one even argue against that? How can I or anyone (because it's not just me, I've seen it dozens of times and not just for TLOU II) defend ourselves when someone can just claim "You're homophobic and you don't know it." One time in particular, I said that I found Ellie and Dina's relationship lacking and under-developed in certain areas, and I was called homophobic by someone. But that doesn't make sense because I think the game should have had MORE scenes of Ellie and Dina together to make it better. Didn't matter, the fact that I didn't buy it right off the bat was enough. In a show called The Dragon Prince, I once made a post saying how a female character named Claudia had the best arc going forward in the series and could be the show's best character. I was called a sexist because I argued that she could be going down a dark path that turns her into a villain (this is, in fact, a possible direction the show is going in) and that I can't handle women in powerful positions or that I didn't believe women could be in powerful fields without being evil. Didn't matter that I also said she could get a huge redemption arc which could also be interesting to see, I was a sexist in her eyes. Doesn't help when the creators and journalists also try to play this game. They'll cherry pick some comments and then use it to denigrate any critic as one of them.
And frankly, none of the stuff the anti-woke crowd complained about for TLOU II had anything to do with the stuff I mentioned (another reason for including it). Most of the anti-woke stuff was towards another character, but all of the stuff I mentioned was used by the other crowd to imply that all criticisms of the game was rooted in sexism, homophobia, etc. Didn't matter that we loved Ellie in the first game, or her reveal in Left Behind, or that we had no problems with another famous Naughty Dog series using female protagonists in an entry (Uncharted: The Lost Legacy). Both of these sides are guilty of repugnant behavior, but at least I can acknowledge that, and I feel as though you're either trying to deny that it happens, or you're shielding yourself from it.
Debatable. It's true that the anti-woke crowd is toxic, they overly complain online, sometimes even send death threats (which is just so fucking stupid and should be taken seriously), and should just get a life. But I find that the actions of certain people on the other side help drive not only the reactions from them, but end up supporting its growth. If you just keep bullying and bullying people, insinuating things that they aren't, and act smug in the process of doing so, how does that not create more toxicity and division? That's why both are buffoons, and the faster we realize this and don't pile onto extremes because of social media mobs, and we start promoting cooler heads than the most toxic and loud-mouthed people, this issue will get worse.
That's priceless
they really said that?! A bit of an odd justification for them to use, surely there wouldn't be as much scrambling to chalk up her kiss as "she's just a teen, she's got, y'know, hormones and shit happenin', she just wanted to show her how much she values her friendship through the form of a kiss! None that agenda stuff, see?!" if there was a boy instead.
But alas, those were the days of GamerGate, what a time that was...
Onto a more happier note, what I enjoy from this representation is how it inspires, since my comment I've read up on some fan accounts and essays that say that it uplifted them, it made them feel seen, and it got me thinking, for people that aren't LGBTQIA+, maybe we should look inward, and see our response to what is observed on screen. Maybe it gets us thinking about who we are inside, in an individual sense and how we look at those who are different to us.
I think I remember some of them, the Twitter interactions with Mary Kenney though, I can recall clear as crystal. It was pretty funny, she was just so blunt like "Clem's bi." And look, I'll come clean, at that time, I wasn't the biggest fan of that confirmation, looking back I am quite ashamed of my attitude to it, it was not my proudest moment, I wasn't on the attack or anything, I wasn't hostile, but internally, it was a bit of a struggle to come to terms with that confirmation about Clementine, then I just outgrew that neanderthal mentality. educated myself and saw beyond the "rainbow people bad!" propaganda. I suppose that's one benefit of overthinking things, I just think and think and think about everything, and I did the same with this and realized it is only a good thing, there's no downside.
Probably not something to openly admit on a public forum, but I'll lay my cards on the table and say that was me years ago, that's not me now, I'm not that guy
It isn't some invasion of a safe space, it isn't bringing the end of gaming as we know it, it's only advancing the idea that gaming should be for everyone, if people want to voluntarily opt out of games or communities because of LGBTQIA+ or ethnic groups become more commonplace, perhaps that's good, it's a self-report, and much different to the involuntary exclusion of aforementioned groups until recently because of Gamer™ culture.
I'll end this here, if you read this far then fair play to you.
Just popping in to say: this is basically the message behind the WLF v. Scars civil war in the game and it's the most brilliant piece of social commentary to come out of it. They knew this would happen. They knew.
Life mimics art.
k cool bye
Hilda the animated series has been confirmed to end on its third season
Well, better to end on a high note then not end at all!
But what I am referring to is not simply based on outlooks of the world, that is a piece of the pie, not the whole pie, but a component, if our environment is one that is safe, if it is one that we feel at peace, we can be vulnerable around those we trust, we can let our guard down, we can go "soft". In typing that, I think of AJ from The Walking Dead and his insistence of keeping his guard up so to not go soft. Carl from the Comics, I forget what issue he says it, and I'm paraphrasing, but I think he mentions how being inside walls can make you soft? It can make you lose that edge, that survival instinct, it erodes when there's no threat. That can easily apply to Joel, or for any character living in an apocalypse, they can be an absolute hardass that is so set in their ways, but exposure to someone or something that means a lot to them, it can break down that wall, probably not immediately, but give it a few years? They can lose that edge, and that could be good for them, and could be what seals their fate. You may not agree with that, but I think that is the most logical explanation for established character traits to be eroded over time. The Joel in the second game isn't the same Joel as the first game, the Joel in Part II is a product of his experience in the first game, an evolution, it took the experience he experienced to become who he is in Part II, was his actions in Part II in character with the Joel that is in Part II? I think that's a question that should be taken into consideration.
None taken so don't worry, I just think the backlash is blown out of proportion, I'm not white-knuckling over the backlash, it has its funny side, but the "this is the end of the world as we know it" reaction that it got, that led to death threats, that led to harassment, both of which I found out was going on since Left Behind and it's controversial kiss, is a bit over the top, and a bit concerning to see such open attacks on devs and people that identify with Ellie and support her sexuality, it's inexcusable and worrying that is the way.
You mention Druckmann being smug in interviews later in your comment, but I'll address it here as I read up on how he handled the controversy of Left Behind... he didn't care about the backlash, he stood his ground, and called out a double standard that some of the most vocal opposition of Ellie's sexuality held, if it were a lad, nobody would try to dismiss the obvious thing to take away of a kiss being shared. If Druckmann wants to have a laugh, he can have at it, if he doesn't want to cave to a reactionary mob that wasn't going to take any answer or justification he provided for his creative decisions, I think that's all fair, if he is confident in his product and what he and the team made, especially the team, then I think that's good on him, though it doesn't excuse the crunch in any way, shape or form.
How so? I'd agree with bold and risky, it was both, but how does it undercut the original? Had Lee been killed off in that manner, I'd be a liar if I said I wouldn't be upset, I would, tremendously, but I'd see it sets up a storyline that taps into the humanity of Clementine and if she can retain it when she lost someone so close to her in that brutal of a fashion. I suspect that what happens with Joel, pushes Ellie to the darkest depths, in that her thirst for revenge caused her to lose who she was, and who Joel wanted her to be. The revenge aspect would also play in with Abby, who sees that her vengeance caused that never-ending hunt from Ellie to avenge Joel. Establishing that as the core motivation and theme at the very start, you go on that journey with the characters, doing it in the name of revenge, but taking a step back, when all is said and done, maybe it wasn't worth pursuing, the point is that revenge is destructive, not only does it harm those around us, it causes us to lose ourselves.
Yeah I remember Dekon used to do those videos theorizing that. But what causes it to fail? What about it was executed so poorly? Establishing and nailing that the game is going to break players emotionally, with something that is going to break players emotionally and establishing that theme: revenge. It gives the game a point, a purpose, a direction to go. Doing what they did, it sure as hell worked, what happened with Joel, that pushed both Ellie and the player in their objectives, from beginning, right up until the end.
Is there any legitimacy to Metacritic removing valid critique of the game? I know they wiped a lot of reviews because of review bombing, I'd like to add that the console wars probably played into that too, where Xbox fans went after a PlayStation exclusive that was the biggest Playstation IP and contended with Halo for the most impactful of IP from both Xbox and PlayStation, obviously that isn't valid, or provide anything substantial, other than being a console wars thing. I just think mentioning the removal of legitimate reviews implies a sinister motive to keep reviews that didn't approve of the game to a minimum when there may be no evidence at all to suggest that.
Why's that do you think? Why do you think Twitter and Tumblr would be more favourable than Reddit and YouTube? What suggests that? Those two platforms specifically, why them? As you said, you're not going to get a platform that's exclusively one way about the game, there's going to be a group present that feels another way, I'm paraphrasing, but that's more or less what you said. Regarding the point of calling either side of the fence in who likes/dislikes the game as woke or bigoted, it's usually the "woke!" chants that are the loudest, and in certain spaces, occupy the most space in regions of the community across the internet where one should not venture to, far exceeding the number of times a bigot is called a bigot. Are there people that go full blown reactionary and just shout "You bigot" with little to set them off? Yes, they're children, not worth getting upset over a 14 year old saying mean things and complaining about it, that's reactionary. But labelling something woke, not that it's inherently a bad thing, the word has a pretty decent original meaning, that using it as an insult to ridicule a progressive project, it's a bit silly and like... so what if a game is woke? If someone is bigoted though, that is a problem though, it just is, if someone is "woke", I mean, alright? Good on them? For me personally I don't get too fussed if I see something labelled "woke" I actually get a bit giddy, because it's a weird "own" and it encourages me to check it out, Nintendo has that seal of quality on the back of their games, seeing those comments are like a seal of quality for me so I jump into it. If something being "woke" is what pushes people to voluntarily exclude themselves from something, doesn't make the "woke" the problem if what meets the criteria for woke is what pushes them away. It's a weird one.
Of course not for Ellie, but I wasn't specifically going for Ellie, comparing the two protagonists, Ellie and Abby, Abby got more of the backlash without question. And not just because of her actions in the game, but because rumours of her being transgender, being a much bigger build than the average woman causing that, mixed in with her actions in the game, pushed a narrative that Naughty Dog was pushing an anti-male agenda when they weren't, fuelling the fires even more. But on the topic of Ellie, and backlash, she did garner plenty of it for being openly lesbian in said promotional material that confirmed she is a lesbian. Where is that backlash? Fortunately, majority of people didn't actually have a problem with it, so the woke chants were drowned out by people excited for the game. People did welcome it, majority of people did, that is correct, did the reactionary crowd welcome it? They didn't. And look, I understand people being upset for not playing as Joel, that's fair enough, I don't think expressing that gets anyone labelled as "sexist" or hate, they'll get an opinion from another person on why they agree that they preferred playing as Joel, or why it may be interesting to play as Ellie.
Right, and that's fine, no qualms with people preferring to play as Lee or Javier over Clementine because they prefer them, and yeah, there wasn't that many people saying they don't want to play as Clementine or Ellie in their respective games, that crowd is a vocal minority, that's the point, the whole "go woke go broke" sentiment, it's a vocal minority, not representative of the majority, but since it's a minority, why are you defending it "to prove a point"? What point is there to prove? Majority of players welcome what is considered "progressive" like having a female lead, or seeing an LGBTQIA+ character, a minority doesn't, you acknowledge that vocal minority I am referring to, is idiotic, and fair play, but see, realistically, that vocal minority, while being a minority, is still rather problematic, with messaging that makes up for the small size of the group, that causes rifts, or division, stoking the flames. "This game wants you to kill white men as a rumoured transgender woman and make you think white men are inferior", sounds pretty silly on paper, hard to believe that can be bought into, but it is, just reword it so it can play on emotions, and hey presto, that's problematic, and propaganda to scapegoat and rally together individuals that'll take measures to see that it fails.
You're trying to argue that it having female protagonists is the controversy, when the major point of my argument is that it wasn't.
The controversy is who the female protagonists are and what they represent or were falsely made to represent, Ellie being a lesbian character, that did draw criticism as pushing an agenda, Abby possessing a very impressive physique that was "unrealistic" for the average woman, so the logical conclusion? She's transgender, and that was controversial, but she's not transgender, didn't stop that being pushed anyways, all for the sake of finding something to pin against the same and to use for the narrative of it "pushing agendas"
And that is tragic, it makes you feel for Ellie, you are left rooting for her, sympathizing with her, even though it may not be fault that she got sucked into and suffered because of stuff that she had no control over, she is still sucked into it because she may have ties to whatever happened, if it were her relationship with Joel, it's the pursuit of revenge for what happened to Joel that puts her through that wringer.
Alright, but it's certainly one of the loudest criticisms, one that certainly does quite well when there's potential for revenue, like YouTube, a couple of examples being The Quartering and Geeks and Gamers, sure they may be outnumbered by the majority of people that don't use "woke" as a criticism, but they're a tight-knit community, that'll jump on the chance to bash it for being "woke" with rhetoric that seeks only to divide. Both of those guys are tossers, with no idea what they're on about 99% of the time, and only in it for the sweet sweet moolah.
That's cool, shows that the vast majority are pretty cool with it, it sure makes those that aren't cool with it are pretty unreasonable right? As for the homophobic character you mentioned, I just had to look into it, my curiosity got the best of me, and yeah he's a bit of a knob, but isn't that how reactionaries that shriek about stuff being "woke" appear to normal people that are genuinely fine with it? Don't they appear just like the old man that is being homophobic? Just being loud and insulting towards two people that happen to lesbian expressing an intimate moment right in front of him? In that scene, we can tell that the people that take issue with his brash comments are rightly outraged, Joel pushes him, Ellie asks him what he said. If we apply that to real life, then I think it's inexcusable for that homophobic man to shriek about it, and unimaginable to paint those that oppose him as being just as bad as him for not taking his shit.
And that's fine if you prefer Ellie and Riley, that's totally cool with me and fair that you wanted to see Dina be a bit more involved, fair enough.
She's a brute, I gotta see if I can get a copy of her training regimen, if the results are that, I want in and I want in now. And your comment on 4Kids, reminded me of Yu-Gi-Oh and the designs of many iconic cards, Dark Magician Girl, Harpie Ladies, being changed in the dub.
Alright, now that's a bit weird.
Life Is Strange really isn't that bad, played through the first game and Before The Storm, they were fun, and had me on the verge of tears, like I did cringe at character dialogue in those games, but they're teens, as a teenager, you are cringy, I was certainly cringe, it may be painstaking to go back to a point like that but we've all went through it.
Oh yeah certainly, this was a popular thing, the majority of people actually supported it, and rightfully so, and a couple of negative ones? Not exactly, there's still a chunk of negative comments under that tweet where they link the Eurogamer article. They stood their ground, may come across as smug or arrogant to some, but they stood their ground, what they posted was relatively harmless, Clementine is an inspiration to the groups she represents along with the groups she doesn't, but because the article speaks about her being an inspiration to the groups she does represent, it's brushed under the rug with comments like "Come on guys, she represents us all, no need to focus on the groups that don't get enough representation" when nobody ignores her being an inspiration to all but specifically outline how she is an icon to people of colour or those who are LGBTQIA+, obviously I'm being quite nice with my phrasing, some have been a lot more... vulgar and a bit odd with their response to it, like they're under threat.
Not the most critical of comments under that tweet, the most critical were "keep politics out of our games" like that's political because Clementine has the capacity to inspire everyone including specific groups
Nobody is saying one is better than the other, literally nobody is saying that, only those that are looking for a reaction, it's of absolutely no substance, literally an attempt to play on emotions of those from the opposite sex, that's child's play. And sure, it's fine for you and me, both being males, and appreciating Clementine's Story for her Journey and experiences, what makes it matter though, is she not the damsel in distress that she was in The Walking Dead: Season One, that is an overused trope, but one that works in Season One because she is a child learning to live in that apocalypse, that when she loses Lee, she is thrown into tough situations, and overcomes them, and grows into a capable survivor, she is an inspiration to everyone, but she stands out, as she goes against the status quo of the industry, she is an inspiration to all, including people of colour and LGBTQIA+, nobody is disputing her appeal from all walks of life and ethnicities.
It's easy for it to look like a big deal when so many people think it's cool, it is treated normally, and the quality is judged based on its merits, it being considered cool by majority of people and it standing out for being unique doesn't mean it avoids criticism by them.
You find both viewpoints to be wrong, one's just bashing for being "woke" the other is acknowledging it for being a relatively unique thing compared to other stuff and still finding room to criticise it and not let it being unique factor into whether or not they'll critique it.
What is representation done well though? And for ulterior motives, what exactly? The elephant in the room is that big corporations will try to capitalize on that audience with specific merchandise, profiting off it, but the groups themselves, that's hardly the case.
That's not the fault of those who are represented by the scene, I think it's maddening that it was cut in China and other markets, and I think the changing of the poster from Disney to make John Boyega much less prominent on it is stupid, we can attach the blame to Disney though, I don't see fans use it as a shield to deflect criticism of it.
I do indeed, it's relatively a non-issue, I don't see what's shocking about that statement.
Oh I'd imagine there is a crowd that does that, it's just nowhere near as prevalent or loud as it is made out to be, besides, they're edgy teens that have had one two many cans of Monster Energy, no point in letting them ruin your day. If I had to take a guess on how many do that, I'd estimate that those who spend their time to deflect actual criticism with "No you're just bigoted" are like 7 or 8 people, who aren't worth letting in your head rent free because they said mean things that don't meaningfully impact you or others.
Except that isn't the criticism she's addressing though, she's not saying that in response to it being an awkward scene, that's just poor framing of what she actually said and what she meant, that sex scene drew controversy because Abby goes against the traditional appearance of a woman, her appearance isn't sexualized, so having her getting booked in a scene when she is the size that she is, that she was considered "unnatural" and "unrealistic", and that was the controversy. I'm not sure why you're trying to frame her comment to mean one thing, when it doesn't even mean that, that's dishonest framing of the actual criticism she addresses with her tweet, in that scene was lambasted for Abby not being the traditional woman physically so seeing her get booked was what triggered people.
Discourse surrounding the game when it released was very spicy, so to ensure that he immediately wasn't susceptible to attacks from the jump for liking/disliking the game. And for some? Less than 10 people at most who are stuck on social media and want to be edgy, criticising the game would make you a bigot in their eyes, but why give them your energy? They're children, hit the block button and move onto someone else to chat to about the game.
You give them way too much head room mate, why let the children get to you emotionally when that's literally what they want?
Alright but if you weren't being homophobic and said you found the relationship under-developed in certain areas, and the response was you being called homophobic, you know you weren't, why get worked up over it when you know you weren't being homophobic?
Why are you letting these people get to you
they aren't going to cancel you 
Cancel culture does not exist. It's a Boogeyman.
Not hard to find nasty comments when they're copied and pasted everywhere, labelling a bigot for being a bigot is fair, as is labelling a transphobe a transphobe, a homophobe labelled a homophobe, or a racist as a racist, if you're offended that they label those that behave that way for behaving that way, I'd reconsider who I associate with, and maybe, they've got a victim mentality? "These trans people are a threat to my existence, it's unfair that I get called transphobic because I don't believe they should exist", it's the embodiment of that meme with the guy on the bike, thrusting a stick into his wheel and blaming a separate group for what happened to him.
Or... and the most likely thing that happened was that the criticism that was sexist and homophobic were shunned, you make out that the slightest criticism against the game is going to get you put on a list where every single edgy teen is going to hunt you down for thinking differently, that is a very paranoid way of thinking, and I can assure you, that isn't what happens, or happened. Mellow out a bit man.
It's been established that her reveal in Left Behind was controversial and felt backlash, claiming that the "gays" are taking over everything, even virtual safe spaces like games. Plenty of people had problems with it, not most people, but then again, that shows the anti-woke crowd as the minority, not representative of everyone as is claimed, because most were cool with the reveal.
Who's "we" in this instance? If you're associating yourself with people that did take issue with it, and took it as Naughty Dog going full woke, maybe reconsider who you choose to associate with, I wouldn't and don't associate myself with reactionaries that play on emotions and call others "big silly poopoo headed bigot" because I don't do what they do, nor have I engaged with them, why lump yourself in with them with "we"?
I'll point out, that crowd that took issue with Uncharted being "woke", a vocal minority, still quite loud to other voices that are shared.
You feel that I'm denying it, or shielding myself from it?
you genuinely feel that way? 
at least once or twice in my comment, maybe more than that, I stated, acknowledged that the audience that blast anyone who dares criticise the game are automatically bigots do exist, but it's like, less than a classroom full of people, that want an emotional response, and by the sounds of it, you have given them that, and it continues to occupy your mind, why give a toss man? Anti-woke, that's pretty hard to avoid when it's copied and pasted, and actually does more to halt any form of progress in comparison to an edgy teen saying mean things that are laughably stupid that to dwell on it, is a remarkable waste of time and effort.
What's there to debate? What mess is being caused by being inclusive?
Glad that you agree
Not really man, it's the existence of diversity that's the problem with these folks. Its continued existence causes them to get louder, and with effective, manipulative messaging, they can rally others to their cause, some things just are black and white.
Whoa whoa whoa, hold on, holding people accountable and calling out wrongful behaviour, that's bullying? It may feel like it when nobody else shares a toxic sentiment and think it's wrong for one or several to be intolerant, intolerance shouldn't have to be tolerated, confronting it, deals with the problem. As you said yourself, every action has a positive and negative reaction. The division itself exists because of diversity, having others be around to witness the mask slip and the self-report, exposes that.
Why should anyone be bothered for ripping into a group that is hateful at its core, and seeks only to cause a divide by calling progressive content as "woke propaganda that'll by the end of western civilization"
I agree, but see the majority of people have cool heads, just have little patience for what is obvious bigotry, when you've got a couple of talking heads that slam the "woke", and are "against this evil agenda" and promote themselves as the reasonable ones, more often than not they're full of it and only present a radical, weird justification for it and their audience take that and spout hateful nonsense, maybe they aren't as reasonable as they portray. Maybe they are toxic, and what causes division, instead of people calling out problematic behaviour and the odd edgelord on social media counting on their words to get an emotional reaction, is not indicative of the majority, and maybe anti-woke is problematic and the bigger evil here, maybe those who are "reasonable" use victimhood to rally their supporters to protest diversity. "They hate me because I'm reasonable and use facts and logic, not because I said bad things", there's some food for thought.
Thanks for the conversation, I had fun
Let's just drop this topic right here. The Last of Us Part 2 was never a fun thing to discuss. It's always been aggressively mediocre.
Huh?
Where'd you learn this? I need to know!
All I've heard so far is that instead of doing Season 3, they're producing an 85-min movie instead.
One of the shows production companies, Silvergate Media, put out a press statement regarding some promotions in the company and it included information about the Hilda movie releasing sometime this year (final paragraph under Monique Simmon) and that season 3 would be the final season (on the paragraph about Bryan Korn).
Honestly it makes sense, I'm pretty sure by the end of the movie they'll have already adapted the entire book series. It'll be interesting to see the third season be, as far as I'm aware, entirely original.
...
lol
@dylanwoods777
Give me at least 5 years and a design team and I’ll get back to you.
There are so many game sequels with much less development time that refined and expanded their predecessor’s gameplay in incredible ways. Batman: Arkham City, Kingdom Hearts 2, Alan Wake: American Nightmare, Portal 2, among countless others.
To answer off the top of my head though: more advanced crafting, more advanced combat, different routes to reach objectives based on what gear you crafted to traverse the area, dialogue options, more lighthearted mini games like in Left Behind, heavily destructible environments like in Battlefield: Bad Company.
(It has been a long time since I played though so some stuff might be present in the game that I can’t remember.)
I was bored playing it.
Sure the game paints her in a more sympathetic light later on in the story since that was Neil’s vision. What I meant was I don’t find her as an interesting character or one with a lot of charisma. She’s kinda bland in my opinion. I feel like if she had a stronger personality the game’s narrative would’ve worked for more people and would’ve been a lot more impactful.
All this Wolf 2 discussion, yet no one has mentioned Telltale on Twitter has said development is going well and that 2020 was seemingly dedicated to making the core assets in the engine which 110% totally 100% means Wolf 2 at the VGAs.
oh dude thats so ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶l̶a̶s̶t̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶u̶s̶ ̶2̶ the wolf among us 2 lets fucking GOOO
I miss doing the Batman Arkham Knight riddles, y'know?
I would actually say it's not out of the realm of possibility to see Wolf 2 at TGA this year, still somewhat unlikely, but I could see possibly getting another short teaser.
Of course it will be there, we just established so!
I wanna see Claire, Jill ,Ada,Sherry and Rebecca Simple Dimple compilations.
@lupinb0y December 30! End of year!
Now we're getting to the cursed territory of those Bigby grins.
Sorry to hear that , my dad had a secret life when he was a cop he would always paint a pretty picture of himself in front of his friends and and elevated ego he had cheated my mom several times during his marriage with my mom for thirty years my mom was a stay at home triditonal housewife and dad would just come home from work expecting dinner on the plate every time but I started having suspicions about him back in 2008 like he’s a different person and 09 when’s down hill .
He left stuff broken in the house and my mom did all the work with the divorce players making sure I go to school etc.
What was the biggest betrayal was he separated me and my sisteter which we always hang around together.
But now , he’s living a fake life remarried with e pe I’ve cars and a boat.
All I can say is nightmare but three years later things started too cool off and here on out i moved to a different environment and I don’t feel intimidated.
When they said later this year they really meant late lol
Also is it just me or does that big golem look like he's letting it all hang out?
Yeah well thanks bro
I'm like 98% sure that's the bottom half of his face... he's just crouching down.
Still didn't stop people from assuming I guess.
I originally posted the tweet from the official account, but they removed it and reposted it with this, all smoothed out
Oh, so the Mitchells vs the Machines is getting a DVD/Blu Ray release!
Comes with a bunch of bonus features, a full Dog Cop short, an alternate cut (like the Spider-Verse release) that uses 45-minutes of deleted scenes, plus a bunch more stuff. The director seems really excited about that, and that's nice. Great twitter thread of content here, just click.
Yeah I assumed it was just some really unfortunate placement for its face, but it sure looked like something else
They really should have included its eyes or something.
Guess who won GOTY at Golden Joystick Awards.
I can die happy now and not worry about The Game Awards cause I can already tell they will pull a TLOU2 on Deathloop.
I don't see what WOLF2 has to do with Deathloop, but sure, I support you in not wanting Deathloop to win.
I haven't played it, but I've heard from some people that it's a bit dissapointing compared to other titles the company has made, and especially with the mediocre reviews the game got at launch, I'm surprised it was nominated so much at the TGAs.
Hoping Big Lady 8 wins too
...oh yeah and I'm super pleased that Hitman 3 just won Best PC Game of the Year for the Golden Joystick Awards, since that was a MAJOR snub IMO
My intention is to just want Resident Evil Village to win. Even though I never played Deathloop, I would have totally been fine if it won, unless RE8 was released in the same year. From what I have seen so far, Deathloop didn't win my attention. I am not really into those action-heavy FPS games as I used to.
Welp, this Black Friday I got some good deals. Not many games at the top of my list are on sale, but I did manage to get
Persona 5 Royal for 35$, and the new Guardians of the Galaxy for 31$ thanks to a 40$ sale and a 10$ trade-in game. Impressive deal since this thing came out 4 weeks ago for 80 dollars.
For this Black Friday, I am planning to buy Little Nightmares 2 and Batman Arkham Collection.
my girlfriend went on a trip to hawaii and honestly im super stoked for her but she keeps sending me pictures of the sunny and beautiful islands and i just look out the window at work and its just fuckin so grey and bleak outside lmaooo
honestly if psychonauts 2 wins i will be just as hyped as if re8 wins. those dudes at double fine are mega talented and worked for a long ass time making that game play, look and sound like god. they deserve a goty award just for the fact that it came out finished and fantastic after all the trouble it had during its long ass dev time
Yeah, I would totally be fine if Psychonauts 2 wins, even though it's not for me.