I wouldn't say anything's wrong with the writing. It makes sense for Tyreese and Morgan's characters to have progressed in the ways they have. Sounds to me like some fans are just fickle, among other things.
Well, maybe I exaggerated a bit with the amount who can't stand Morgan, but I did find it bizzare that we had this reaction:
"Woohoo! Mor… moregan is alive and he's about to join Rick's group! Can't wait to see him in action when Season 6 comes."
One or two episode later and we have these two comment from the Walking Dead Forum:
"yea guys I'm REALLY starting to hate Morgan. I thought he would be the perfect compliment to Rick because of what we saw him do in earlier season. He's become a total bitch and a huge liability. He will get himself or other people in the community killed again because he refuses to slaughter the wolves. just sucks Rick was not around - he would have killed every one of the wolves, found out where they live and killed the remaining members by himself"
"So I guess the writers have decided to ruin the Morgan character like they did with Tyreese... They have turned Morgan into a complete ZA Idiot.....this is… [view original content]
Exactly! I loved what they did with Tyreese and what they are doing with Morgan. What's wrong with having one or two characters that place their own morals above survival logic? They're both some of my favorite characters from the whole television show!
...sorry, had to vent. It hurts seeing so much hate for Morgan.
I wouldn't say anything's wrong with the writing. It makes sense for Tyreese and Morgan's characters to have progressed in the ways they have. Sounds to me like some fans are just fickle, among other things.
I think it has to do with how the moral compass archetypes (Dale/Tyreese/Morgan) are often mishandled in the Walking Dead, hence why some are more likely to find them annoying due to their morals, compassion, and honour overshadowing more important features such as common sense, rationality, and the group's survivability.
Exactly! I loved what they did with Tyreese and what they are doing with Morgan. What's wrong with having one or two characters that place t… moreheir own morals above survival logic? They're both some of my favorite characters from the whole television show!
...sorry, had to vent. It hurts seeing so much hate for Morgan.
I dont mind him being more moral but seriously Aaron is moral, carl is moral and they realize they have to kill these savages attacking them. I mean seriously is it moral to let a bunch of armed psychos leave to return again or tie up someone babbling about how the murder war commanded while the people from your community are still being butchered. Thats not morality its stupidity, and thats usually why character such as tyreese are disliked, there's being more moral and being stupid.
Plus with morgan half of it is the fact he now acts like a jedi and lectures others on morality despite spending at least a year killing anything that ventured into his town.
I think it has to do with how the moral compass archetypes (Dale/Tyreese/Morgan) are often mishandled in the Walking Dead, hence why some ar… moree more likely to find them annoying due to their morals, compassion, and honour overshadowing more important features such as common sense, rationality, and the group's survivability.
Well, maybe I exaggerated a bit with the amount who can't stand Morgan, but I did find it bizzare that we had this reaction:
"Woohoo! Mor… moregan is alive and he's about to join Rick's group! Can't wait to see him in action when Season 6 comes."
One or two episode later and we have these two comment from the Walking Dead Forum:
"yea guys I'm REALLY starting to hate Morgan. I thought he would be the perfect compliment to Rick because of what we saw him do in earlier season. He's become a total bitch and a huge liability. He will get himself or other people in the community killed again because he refuses to slaughter the wolves. just sucks Rick was not around - he would have killed every one of the wolves, found out where they live and killed the remaining members by himself"
"So I guess the writers have decided to ruin the Morgan character like they did with Tyreese... They have turned Morgan into a complete ZA Idiot.....this is… [view original content]
Yup! I also love Morgan and Tyreese, and I think their arcs were, and are, being written very well. I think Morgan is being a bit naive in terms of killing the Wolves in this episode though, but I think his original plan (before Carol outright refused) was to have himself, as well as Carol and everyone disarm the Wolves together without killing them. Morgan recognized Carol's skills, and he probably guessed since she had such skill in killing these dangerous people, perhaps she probably also had the skill to disarm the Wolves and still save the Alexandrians.
I think it's fascinating that Morgan is the first character (as far as I know) in this franchise who went so far to crazy town, but that he was able to come back from where he was, and is so peaceful now. We didn't see what exactly it was that changed him, but it was something (and someone) big that had a huge impact on him. Just because this part of his story hasn't been told yet doesn't mean it's "bad writing"; they've mentioned over and over in the show that something changed him for the better. It's just something that's off screen, that we haven't seen unravel yet. But when we do, I'm sure it'll be epic.
Exactly! I loved what they did with Tyreese and what they are doing with Morgan. What's wrong with having one or two characters that place t… moreheir own morals above survival logic? They're both some of my favorite characters from the whole television show!
...sorry, had to vent. It hurts seeing so much hate for Morgan.
Lol. Well I'm one of those who thinks TWDGS2 was written badly in some major places (not all of the game mind you; there were well-written parts too), but I do think that Morgan's and Tyreese's arcs were written well in the show. So, I hope you recognize that there are people who appreciate "good writing" and can still criticize what we think to be "bad writing," and that people like myself are not just "jumping on the bandwagon."
"Far" isn't exactly specific though. The group was close enough that they could clearly and easily hear the horn go off, so they couldn't really have been all that far away. If they were an hour(+) away there is pretty much no way they would have been able to hear the horn, let alone hear it as loud and clear as they did. So considering that they weren't all that far away from the community to begin with, and that there was essentially zero transitioning from Morgan separating from Rick to the horn going off, I think the whole thing was kind of poorly set up. According to what you're telling me here, the audience is supposed to a) blindly assume that a somewhat significant amount of time had passed between Morgan leaving Rick before the horn went off, and b) ignore the fact that Rick's crew was reasonably close to Alexandria, considering they could easily hear the the horn go off (it was loud enough that the herd of walkers were instantly drawn to it). I honestly just think that Rick was not wanted in the episode, so he was conveniently left out without much thought or effort being put into it.
For what it's worth, I'm not trying to nit pick or anything, I just had this general feeling in regards to pretty much the whole episode.
Michonne says the exact words "Whatever that is, it's far." Also Rick tells Morgan "we have a good hour before we have to hand them off to … moreAbraham and Daryl" so I'm assuming that good hour went by without us needing to see anything :P until the horn blows that is which I assume is enough time passed for Morgan to arrive just as its blowing.
Now that you mention 'him' i have this theory that morgan entire character in season 6 and onwards is the 'push' that rick needs to spare 'him' a the end of the tv series Allout war.
Well i liked it. It was a good ep. I know some fans are mad about it but i LOVE the fact that Morgan is non-lethal. It separates him from EVERY other character and it seems like natural evolution. Also for some reason the wolves getting in without anyone noticing thing doesn't bother me.
I guess to prove they can still shock people and aren't 100% following the comics? I betting the lady Abraham saved or Rosita get her development. Its the Dale/Bob thing again.
Commando Carol at her finest! Both Morgan and Carol were destroying the Wolves and were so boss in the process. It had a great transition fr… moreom character development to chaos. Really loved this episode!
Also, that sniper or lookout SUCKED at his job! Sasha would have taken a lot of them down. It's no wonder how the wolves easily got in...
Sadly, this is the first episode of the main TWD series I haven't enjoyed in a long time. (The last one being Season 4 Episode 6 and 7) This… more whole thing with Holly is stupid, Denise looks nothing like she did in the comics, Eugene was acting almost completely out of character, Carol has never been so stupid as to kill a hostage able to reveal some info, Morgan annoyed the shit out of me, the CGI with the Molotov made me laugh so hard, and just how the fuck did the Wolves even get in?!
Do we have nobody watching the gates in this show?! The Governor snuck up on them at the Prison twice because no one watched the gates, Carol took down Terminus because no one watched the fences, ALEXANDRIA FELL BECAUSE MOTHERFUCKERS DON'T KNOW HOW TO SHOOT OTHER SUSPICIOUS LOOKING MOTHER FUCKERS.
This episode was infuriating, annoying, downright ridiculous, and not required. However, I would have actually given it a pass if they had fucking killed Ron. I … [view original content]
It's making me laugh so hard how the Majority of this comments section is support for the episode, and then my comment is my brutally shitting on the episode.
Sadly, this is the first episode of the main TWD series I haven't enjoyed in a long time. (The last one being Season 4 Episode 6 and 7) This… more whole thing with Holly is stupid, Denise looks nothing like she did in the comics, Eugene was acting almost completely out of character, Carol has never been so stupid as to kill a hostage able to reveal some info, Morgan annoyed the shit out of me, the CGI with the Molotov made me laugh so hard, and just how the fuck did the Wolves even get in?!
Do we have nobody watching the gates in this show?! The Governor snuck up on them at the Prison twice because no one watched the gates, Carol took down Terminus because no one watched the fences, ALEXANDRIA FELL BECAUSE MOTHERFUCKERS DON'T KNOW HOW TO SHOOT OTHER SUSPICIOUS LOOKING MOTHER FUCKERS.
This episode was infuriating, annoying, downright ridiculous, and not required. However, I would have actually given it a pass if they had fucking killed Ron. I … [view original content]
Im surprised too tbh. Sometimes i feel alone in my opinion about liking an ep. I hope you don't feel bad for your opinion with so many people disagreeing.
It's making me laugh so hard how the Majority of this comments section is support for the episode, and then my comment is my brutally shitting on the episode.
Nah, you missed a line in the premiere. Right after Carter's death, Rick told Morgan to start heading back to Alexandria and inform the others of what's going on. Morgan had a head start. Rick and the others will have a ways to go to get there with all the walkers scattered around right now.
Possibly, but it still doesn't seem realistic that he would send just Morgan by himself to go deal with the problem given the number of peop… morele that he had with him while not having any idea what was going on back at Alexandria. The horn was kind of a huge issue (especially when you think about other implications), you would think he would want more than one person checking it out.
It's making me laugh so hard how the Majority of this comments section is support for the episode, and then my comment is my brutally shitting on the episode.
Neither does Carol. Rick's not quite 100% either. Or Maggie. Kind of pointless to complain about that, really.
Carol has never been so stupid as to kill a hostage able to reveal some info,
Nonsense. She killed Karen and David based on a hunch and nothing more, which was pretty damn stupid. I love Carol, but I will never support that decision.
Do we have nobody watching the gates in this show?!
They didn't come through the gate. At least, not all of them. The only ones we know for sure did that were the five that Morgan fought. One of the Wolves scaled the wall after the molotov attack that Maggie tried to shoot. Now granted, he moved a little too fast, but even aside from that, it's just like Enid said. Too many blindspots. Remember when Rick pointed out the flaw in Reg's design to Deanna last season, that an enemy could use the supports to climb in? Well, that's exactly what they did, and the supports are all over the damn place. And they did it while half of Alexandria's force is gone, and there was no way of knowing how or when the Wolves would attack Alexandria, if they even bothered to at all. They didn't even know it existed until they saw pictures of it. For all anyone knew, it was just the two dudes who attacked Morgan. All reasons why the attack would catch them unawares.
Honestly, the invasion has more than enough going for it that it makes sense and doesn't rely entirely on stupidity to occur, other than basic human error. Unlike Rick's idiotic plan from beginning to end of the premiere.
Sadly, this is the first episode of the main TWD series I haven't enjoyed in a long time. (The last one being Season 4 Episode 6 and 7) This… more whole thing with Holly is stupid, Denise looks nothing like she did in the comics, Eugene was acting almost completely out of character, Carol has never been so stupid as to kill a hostage able to reveal some info, Morgan annoyed the shit out of me, the CGI with the Molotov made me laugh so hard, and just how the fuck did the Wolves even get in?!
Do we have nobody watching the gates in this show?! The Governor snuck up on them at the Prison twice because no one watched the gates, Carol took down Terminus because no one watched the fences, ALEXANDRIA FELL BECAUSE MOTHERFUCKERS DON'T KNOW HOW TO SHOOT OTHER SUSPICIOUS LOOKING MOTHER FUCKERS.
This episode was infuriating, annoying, downright ridiculous, and not required. However, I would have actually given it a pass if they had fucking killed Ron. I … [view original content]
Really? I don't think it was much of a sneak attack. Infact the wolves were not sneaky at all, they threw molotovs at people and murdered them in plain site. They were just fast and nobody noticed.
Im surprised too tbh. Sometimes i feel alone in my opinion about liking an ep. I hope you don't feel bad for your opinion with so many people disagreeing.
Very, very good episode, especially after the very, very stupid Season 6 premiere. I was worried about Season 6, but this episode brought back the hype.
The good:
Carol.
The attack.
The music! Can't wait for the rip on YouTube. Bear McCreary never fails.
The development, especially for Carol. Jessie was pretty badass too.
The "meh":
Morgan. I have not lost my liking for the guy, but my problem stems from how his arc so far is just Tyreese all over again. Tyreese was unique from Dale because Dale could be a moralizing jerk sometimes without the experience to back it up. Tyreese was non-lethal because he fell to the bottom and clawed his way out. Now Morgan is doing the same thing. I'll wait for them to expand on his story before I make any further judgments. I really, really hope they're not setting up the predictable: "He's too kindhearted to live" crap again. Still, Morgan is at least more interesting than his comic counterpart in this era of the comics.
The meaning of "JSS". I might be alone in this, but I was a bit let down by that. Then again, it is Enid. She's not all that interesting, but I did like seeing her buildup.
The bad:
Maybe the horn. I like the explanation, but it could potentially cause some confusion in how far Rick's group was from Alexandria. That said, they're going to show what they were up to next episode, and they'll likely be running into some obstacles impeding their progress.
Oh yeah, and Holly being brought in just to die. It just raises the question, "why'd you even bother?" We've never even seen her up until now. If they do keep the Abraham cheating storyline (I wish they didn't), I guess it'll be Francine filling that role, but that's such a superficial change that it makes you wonder why they even bothered. That said, Francine is cute as hell, so seeing more of her won't kill me, at least.
That's good. These days in the internet a lot of people would outright insult you for having one. I'm happy we can mutually respect each others opinions .
I hope you don't feel bad for your opinion with so many people disagreeing.
Oh hell no I don't. It's my opinion and I find myself to be confident in keeping it that way.
Neither does Carol. Rick's not quite 100% either. Or Maggie. Kind of pointless to complain about that, really.
Okay, you have a good point.
Nonsense. She killed Karen and David based on a hunch and nothing more, which was pretty damn stupid. I love Carol, but I will never support that decision.
First of all, I said she's never been so stupid as to kill a "Hostage" that's able to reveal some info. Karen and David were living inside the walls with them by choice. Second, Carol was pretty right if you ask me. Besides, The only thing Karen was used for was Tyreese's character development, and David barely had an existence as a character.
They didn't come through the gate. At least, not all of them.
And you see my problem with that? If they didn't come through the gates, How exactly did they get in? If they climbed the walls, wouldn't Alexandria's defense-- Sorry, I mean Alexandria's 2 PEOPLE ON WATCH have noticed them getting over the wall, and shot them? It only makes sense that they came through the gates, but even then, how did NOBODY see the armed douchebags running at people?
The only ones we know for sure did that were the five that Morgan fought.
Which they wouldn't have been able to do, had it not been for the other guys impossible break in.
One of the Wolves scaled the wall after the molotov attack that Maggie tried to shoot.
Again, where was Spencer when this sh*t was happening? Or Aaron? Or Eric? Or any other fucking person with a brain and the ability to shoot a weapon into a human being?!
it's just like Enid said. Too many blindspots
Once again, the Walking Dead succeeds at making the smartest character a teenage boy/girl or a pointless side character.
Remember when Rick pointed out the flaw in Reg's design to Deanna last season, that an enemy could use the supports to climb in? Well, that's exactly what they did, and the supports are all over the damn place.
And what the f**k happened to Alexandria's line of defense?! You can't seriously tell me that Spencer and Molotov Victim guy were the ONLY 2 people on watch in Alexandria's almost 100 PERSON POPULATION. You could indeed argue that some of them were with Rick, but what about the people who were still there? Did nobody once think, "Hmm, something could go wrong with the plan, so we should have people backing up the walls."?
Honestly, the invasion has more than enough going for it that it makes sense and doesn't rely entirely on stupidity to occur, other than basic human error. Unlike Rick's idiotic plan from beginning to end of the premiere.
I think I just explained in like 12 sentences about Alexandria's defense how incorrect that is. I'm not calling you stupid, because with the way you formulated your argument, you seem like a smart dude. But this episode just couldn't happen, it shouldn't have happened.
Denise looks nothing like she did in the comics
Neither does Carol. Rick's not quite 100% either. Or Maggie. Kind of pointless to co… moremplain about that, really.
Carol has never been so stupid as to kill a hostage able to reveal some info,
Nonsense. She killed Karen and David based on a hunch and nothing more, which was pretty damn stupid. I love Carol, but I will never support that decision.
Do we have nobody watching the gates in this show?!
They didn't come through the gate. At least, not all of them. The only ones we know for sure did that were the five that Morgan fought. One of the Wolves scaled the wall after the molotov attack that Maggie tried to shoot. Now granted, he moved a little too fast, but even aside from that, it's just like Enid said. Too many blindspots. Remember when Rick pointed out the flaw in Reg's design to Deanna last season, that an enemy could use the supports to climb in? Well, tha… [view original content]
Oh I already know that. I've read most of the comic book series. But as we've learned from Dale, Carol, Daryl, Rick, Hershel, Tyreese, Bob and the Governor, the show can sometimes follow the comics, and sometimes go WAY off course of the comics.
People on the internet outright insult everyone for everything these days. Doesn't make good people like you and I any lesser than them, and it doesn't make people like them better than us.
That's good. These days in the internet a lot of people would outright insult you for having one. I'm happy we can mutually respect each others opinions .
People on the internet outright insult everyone for everything these days. Doesn't make good people like you and I any lesser than them, and it doesn't make people like them better than us.
First of all, I said she's never been so stupid as to kill a "Hostage" that's able to reveal some info. Karen and David were living inside the walls with them by choice. Second, Carol was pretty right if you ask me. Besides, The only thing Karen was used for was Tyreese's character development, and David barely had an existence as a character.
Yeah, I know. And my point still stands. She was rash both times and killed someone when she didn't have to. The specifics don't really matter. I have no love for either of those characters, but that doesn't change the decision itself. They were still living people, undeveloped though they were.
And you see my problem with that? If they didn't come through the gates, How exactly did they get in? If they climbed the walls, wouldn't Alexandria's defense-- Sorry, I mean Alexandria's 2 PEOPLE ON WATCH have noticed them getting over the wall, and shot them? It only makes sense that they came through the gates, but even then, how did NOBODY see the armed douchebags running at people?
You do realize Alexandria's walls spread out pretty far, right? The Wolves could enter from any angle, depending on how organized they are, and they seemed pretty damn organized. Plus, the current watch for Alexandria is Spencer. SPENCER, lol. He has a bad track record. If it had been Sasha, she'd be picking off Wolves left and right. But to be fair to Spencer, he can only face one way at a time, and the Wolves have more areas to exploit than he can handle in a split-second. They need more people up there, like in the comics and will probably happen soon enough.
Once again, the Walking Dead succeeds at making the smartest character a teenage boy/girl or a pointless side character.
Rick was saying the same things back in Season 5, along with Michonne and Maggie's agreement. They've known things aren't perfect for a while now. But then the herd business started. They can't buffer up the safety of the walls right now, and putting inexperienced Alexandrians on watch would do jack and shit. Again, up until now, they have no comprehension whatsoever who the Wolves were, their numbers, if they would even come around, etc.
Again, where was Spencer when this sh*t was happening? Or Aaron? Or Eric? Or any other fucking person with a brain and the ability to shoot a weapon into a human being?!
Touched on Spencer already, the one guy with the only bird's eye view. And as for the rest, it doesn't really matter, because even if they were on watch somewhere, I reiterate... "too many blindspots"... especially for the few people in Alexandria who actually get things. Alexandria may not seem as huge as it should be because of budget constraints, but it is, and everyone else is either at home or has their own jobs to attend to given to them by Deanna, which doesn't include preparation for human marauders. Rick hasn't done a complete overhaul of the system yet, after all.
You can't seriously tell me that Spencer and Molotov Victim guy were the ONLY 2 people on watch in Alexandria's almost 100 PERSON POPULATION.
Sure, I could, because Alexandria has been set up as a populace of idiots, the vast majority of which are unfamiliar with guns and getting their hands dirty. Most of them have never done this before, and Rick hasn't started shaping up the Alexandrians just yet, because he's got his hands full at the moment. And even if you're just talking about those who know what they were doing, I point out again that their numbers are not staggering, and they have no idea that the Wolves are on the way or that they are in such numbers that they can invade from many different areas. Not even Aaron could predict that because he's never even seen them, just their zombies.
Barring Spencer, the witless wonder, we know Rosita is on watch somewhere because Rick gave her that job. Maggie is keeping an eye on Deanna. Carol is playing up her little homemaker role. Carl is with his sister. Eugene isn't a good first line of defense at any position. Tara, if I remember correctly, is still recovering. Aaron could potentially be on watch, and for the sake of argument let's say Eric is too. Three people and one idiot who consistently messes up on watch, of an entire compound with walls that are badly designed on all corners. Yeah, I'm not liking their chances, even if we're being really generous with who is keeping watch.
Edit: Oh yeah, and Richard, the molotov guy, who wasn't doing a bang up job himself. Wish I could analyze his character more, but I'm pretty sure we've never been introduced to him.
You do have one point about considering the possibility of the plan going awry, but remember these people also believe their walls are nigh impenetrable. Rick's forward thinking hasn't caught onto the rest of them yet. They have never dealt with a human raid like this before. Attackers who are intelligent and can work out how to fuck with the flaws in the wall. Zombies can't. And again, even if those who believe the plan could go wrong were on watch, it doesn't matter, because the walkers are being led on one side of Alexandria, and can only come from that direction. The Wolves can, and did, come from all over the place.
I think I just explained in like 12 sentences about Alexandria's defense how incorrect that is. I'm not calling you stupid, because with the way you formulated your argument, you seem like a smart dude. But this episode just couldn't happen, it shouldn't have happened.
No, you didn't. You posted the best case scenario. I posted the reality of what is going on. In a world where everything goes right, Deanna would have already started putting the other Alexandrians to work in getting gun smart and being prepared for anything. But she doesn't want to take any control anymore and just does what Rick says, and Rick ain't giving orders right now. Plus, she's grieving and has no drive anymore. The human error here is minimal once you actually take stock of how up shit creek Alexandria is at this moment in terms of safety, and remember that this is entirely in keeping with the characterization of the Alexandrians, and how they simply aren't ready for the real world yet, and those that are are divided and minimal.
Neither does Carol. Rick's not quite 100% either. Or Maggie. Kind of pointless to complain about that, really.
Okay, you have a good… more point.
Nonsense. She killed Karen and David based on a hunch and nothing more, which was pretty damn stupid. I love Carol, but I will never support that decision.
First of all, I said she's never been so stupid as to kill a "Hostage" that's able to reveal some info. Karen and David were living inside the walls with them by choice. Second, Carol was pretty right if you ask me. Besides, The only thing Karen was used for was Tyreese's character development, and David barely had an existence as a character.
They didn't come through the gate. At least, not all of them.
And you see my problem with that? If they didn't come through the gates, How exactly did they get in? If they climbed the walls, wouldn't Alexandria's defense-- Sorry, I mean Alexandria's 2 PEOPLE ON WATCH have notic… [view original content]
Yeah, as you may have seen already, I elaborated on that in a response to someone else. All things considered, it wasn't very well put together in my opinion.
As far as the walkers go, I don't see how they would be in the way of getting back to Alexandria, unless Rick tries to do something to contain them. I wouldn't be surprised if that ends up being the case, and it's obviously a potential reason for him personally not being back at Alexandria. Regardless though, it would still be odd if no one was sent back to the community at all.
Nah, you missed a line in the premiere. Right after Carter's death, Rick told Morgan to start heading back to Alexandria and inform the othe… morers of what's going on. Morgan had a head start. Rick and the others will have a ways to go to get there with all the walkers scattered around right now.
Edit: Ah, sorry. Someone brought it up already.
I have nothing to add to this. Your argument is fantastic, you have solid points, and while I don't entirely agree with everything you're saying, and I still strongly believe it could have been better, I respect your opinion a lot. Kudos to you dude.
First of all, I said she's never been so stupid as to kill a "Hostage" that's able to reveal some info. Karen and David were living inside t… morehe walls with them by choice. Second, Carol was pretty right if you ask me. Besides, The only thing Karen was used for was Tyreese's character development, and David barely had an existence as a character.
Yeah, I know. And my point still stands. She was rash both times and killed someone when she didn't have to. The specifics don't really matter. I have no love for either of those characters, but that doesn't change the decision itself. They were still living people, undeveloped though they were.
And you see my problem with that? If they didn't come through the gates, How exactly did they get in? If they climbed the walls, wouldn't Alexandria's defense-- Sorry, I mean Alexandria's 2 PEOPLE ON WATCH have noticed them getting over the wall, and shot them? It only makes sense that they came th… [view original content]
Comments
wait that was holly?? no way that bullshit.
I wouldn't say anything's wrong with the writing. It makes sense for Tyreese and Morgan's characters to have progressed in the ways they have. Sounds to me like some fans are just fickle, among other things.
Exactly! I loved what they did with Tyreese and what they are doing with Morgan. What's wrong with having one or two characters that place their own morals above survival logic? They're both some of my favorite characters from the whole television show!
...sorry, had to vent. It hurts seeing so much hate for Morgan.
I think it has to do with how the moral compass archetypes (Dale/Tyreese/Morgan) are often mishandled in the Walking Dead, hence why some are more likely to find them annoying due to their morals, compassion, and honour overshadowing more important features such as common sense, rationality, and the group's survivability.
I dont mind him being more moral but seriously Aaron is moral, carl is moral and they realize they have to kill these savages attacking them. I mean seriously is it moral to let a bunch of armed psychos leave to return again or tie up someone babbling about how the murder war commanded while the people from your community are still being butchered. Thats not morality its stupidity, and thats usually why character such as tyreese are disliked, there's being more moral and being stupid.
Plus with morgan half of it is the fact he now acts like a jedi and lectures others on morality despite spending at least a year killing anything that ventured into his town.
I wouldn't say that's anything wrong with the writing, it's just mindless people jumping on bandwagons as usual.
That's rude and unnecessary.
I didn't mean it like that, I meant it like they haven't put much thought into it. Focus more on the bandwagon part.
Yup! I also love Morgan and Tyreese, and I think their arcs were, and are, being written very well. I think Morgan is being a bit naive in terms of killing the Wolves in this episode though, but I think his original plan (before Carol outright refused) was to have himself, as well as Carol and everyone disarm the Wolves together without killing them. Morgan recognized Carol's skills, and he probably guessed since she had such skill in killing these dangerous people, perhaps she probably also had the skill to disarm the Wolves and still save the Alexandrians.
I think it's fascinating that Morgan is the first character (as far as I know) in this franchise who went so far to crazy town, but that he was able to come back from where he was, and is so peaceful now. We didn't see what exactly it was that changed him, but it was something (and someone) big that had a huge impact on him. Just because this part of his story hasn't been told yet doesn't mean it's "bad writing"; they've mentioned over and over in the show that something changed him for the better. It's just something that's off screen, that we haven't seen unravel yet. But when we do, I'm sure it'll be epic.
If that's what you meant.
Lmao this made me laugh way more than it should have.
"Far" isn't exactly specific though. The group was close enough that they could clearly and easily hear the horn go off, so they couldn't really have been all that far away. If they were an hour(+) away there is pretty much no way they would have been able to hear the horn, let alone hear it as loud and clear as they did. So considering that they weren't all that far away from the community to begin with, and that there was essentially zero transitioning from Morgan separating from Rick to the horn going off, I think the whole thing was kind of poorly set up. According to what you're telling me here, the audience is supposed to a) blindly assume that a somewhat significant amount of time had passed between Morgan leaving Rick before the horn went off, and b) ignore the fact that Rick's crew was reasonably close to Alexandria, considering they could easily hear the the horn go off (it was loud enough that the herd of walkers were instantly drawn to it). I honestly just think that Rick was not wanted in the episode, so he was conveniently left out without much thought or effort being put into it.
For what it's worth, I'm not trying to nit pick or anything, I just had this general feeling in regards to pretty much the whole episode.
Now that you mention 'him' i have this theory that morgan entire character in season 6 and onwards is the 'push' that rick needs to spare 'him' a the end of the tv series Allout war.
Well i liked it. It was a good ep. I know some fans are mad about it but i LOVE the fact that Morgan is non-lethal. It separates him from EVERY other character and it seems like natural evolution. Also for some reason the wolves getting in without anyone noticing thing doesn't bother me.
Overall i liked it 8.5 or a 9/10.
I guess to prove they can still shock people and aren't 100% following the comics? I betting the lady Abraham saved or Rosita get her development. Its the Dale/Bob thing again.
That was Aidens bro.............it runs in the genes i guess.
IF they go that route with her. So far it doesn't seem likely with there being no you know who........
Well Alexandria is still standing.......
I blame it on the people that spoil the series forcing the show to change paths
Yeah, but for how long? Hopefully not Long enough for the plot to continue to get worse.
It's making me laugh so hard how the Majority of this comments section is support for the episode, and then my comment is my brutally shitting on the episode.
Not to spoil the comics but let's just say it lasts longer that you can think it would with this show.
Im surprised too tbh. Sometimes i feel alone in my opinion about liking an ep. I hope you don't feel bad for your opinion with so many people disagreeing.
Nah, you missed a line in the premiere. Right after Carter's death, Rick told Morgan to start heading back to Alexandria and inform the others of what's going on. Morgan had a head start. Rick and the others will have a ways to go to get there with all the walkers scattered around right now.
Edit: Ah, sorry. Someone brought it up already.
I'm with you, the whole sneak attack invasion thing ruined it for me.
Neither does Carol. Rick's not quite 100% either. Or Maggie. Kind of pointless to complain about that, really.
Nonsense. She killed Karen and David based on a hunch and nothing more, which was pretty damn stupid. I love Carol, but I will never support that decision.
They didn't come through the gate. At least, not all of them. The only ones we know for sure did that were the five that Morgan fought. One of the Wolves scaled the wall after the molotov attack that Maggie tried to shoot. Now granted, he moved a little too fast, but even aside from that, it's just like Enid said. Too many blindspots. Remember when Rick pointed out the flaw in Reg's design to Deanna last season, that an enemy could use the supports to climb in? Well, that's exactly what they did, and the supports are all over the damn place. And they did it while half of Alexandria's force is gone, and there was no way of knowing how or when the Wolves would attack Alexandria, if they even bothered to at all. They didn't even know it existed until they saw pictures of it. For all anyone knew, it was just the two dudes who attacked Morgan. All reasons why the attack would catch them unawares.
Honestly, the invasion has more than enough going for it that it makes sense and doesn't rely entirely on stupidity to occur, other than basic human error. Unlike Rick's idiotic plan from beginning to end of the premiere.
Really? I don't think it was much of a sneak attack. Infact the wolves were not sneaky at all, they threw molotovs at people and murdered them in plain site. They were just fast and nobody noticed.
Oh hell no I don't. It's my opinion and I find myself to be confident in keeping it that way.
Very, very good episode, especially after the very, very stupid Season 6 premiere. I was worried about Season 6, but this episode brought back the hype.
The good:
Carol.
The attack.
The music! Can't wait for the rip on YouTube. Bear McCreary never fails.
The development, especially for Carol. Jessie was pretty badass too.
The "meh":
Morgan. I have not lost my liking for the guy, but my problem stems from how his arc so far is just Tyreese all over again. Tyreese was unique from Dale because Dale could be a moralizing jerk sometimes without the experience to back it up. Tyreese was non-lethal because he fell to the bottom and clawed his way out. Now Morgan is doing the same thing. I'll wait for them to expand on his story before I make any further judgments. I really, really hope they're not setting up the predictable: "He's too kindhearted to live" crap again. Still, Morgan is at least more interesting than his comic counterpart in this era of the comics.
The meaning of "JSS". I might be alone in this, but I was a bit let down by that. Then again, it is Enid. She's not all that interesting, but I did like seeing her buildup.
The bad:
Maybe the horn. I like the explanation, but it could potentially cause some confusion in how far Rick's group was from Alexandria. That said, they're going to show what they were up to next episode, and they'll likely be running into some obstacles impeding their progress.
Oh yeah, and Holly being brought in just to die. It just raises the question, "why'd you even bother?" We've never even seen her up until now. If they do keep the Abraham cheating storyline (I wish they didn't), I guess it'll be Francine filling that role, but that's such a superficial change that it makes you wonder why they even bothered. That said, Francine is cute as hell, so seeing more of her won't kill me, at least.
That's good. These days in the internet a lot of people would outright insult you for having one. I'm happy we can mutually respect each others opinions
.
Okay, you have a good point.
First of all, I said she's never been so stupid as to kill a "Hostage" that's able to reveal some info. Karen and David were living inside the walls with them by choice. Second, Carol was pretty right if you ask me. Besides, The only thing Karen was used for was Tyreese's character development, and David barely had an existence as a character.
And you see my problem with that? If they didn't come through the gates, How exactly did they get in? If they climbed the walls, wouldn't Alexandria's defense-- Sorry, I mean Alexandria's 2 PEOPLE ON WATCH have noticed them getting over the wall, and shot them? It only makes sense that they came through the gates, but even then, how did NOBODY see the armed douchebags running at people?
Which they wouldn't have been able to do, had it not been for the other guys impossible break in.
Again, where was Spencer when this sh*t was happening? Or Aaron? Or Eric? Or any other fucking person with a brain and the ability to shoot a weapon into a human being?!
Once again, the Walking Dead succeeds at making the smartest character a teenage boy/girl or a pointless side character.
And what the f**k happened to Alexandria's line of defense?! You can't seriously tell me that Spencer and Molotov Victim guy were the ONLY 2 people on watch in Alexandria's almost 100 PERSON POPULATION. You could indeed argue that some of them were with Rick, but what about the people who were still there? Did nobody once think, "Hmm, something could go wrong with the plan, so we should have people backing up the walls."?
I think I just explained in like 12 sentences about Alexandria's defense how incorrect that is. I'm not calling you stupid, because with the way you formulated your argument, you seem like a smart dude. But this episode just couldn't happen, it shouldn't have happened.
I agree.
Oh I already know that. I've read most of the comic book series. But as we've learned from Dale, Carol, Daryl, Rick, Hershel, Tyreese, Bob and the Governor, the show can sometimes follow the comics, and sometimes go WAY off course of the comics.
People on the internet outright insult everyone for everything these days. Doesn't make good people like you and I any lesser than them, and it doesn't make people like them better than us.
True
Yeah, I know. And my point still stands. She was rash both times and killed someone when she didn't have to. The specifics don't really matter. I have no love for either of those characters, but that doesn't change the decision itself. They were still living people, undeveloped though they were.
You do realize Alexandria's walls spread out pretty far, right? The Wolves could enter from any angle, depending on how organized they are, and they seemed pretty damn organized. Plus, the current watch for Alexandria is Spencer. SPENCER, lol. He has a bad track record. If it had been Sasha, she'd be picking off Wolves left and right. But to be fair to Spencer, he can only face one way at a time, and the Wolves have more areas to exploit than he can handle in a split-second. They need more people up there, like in the comics and will probably happen soon enough.
Rick was saying the same things back in Season 5, along with Michonne and Maggie's agreement. They've known things aren't perfect for a while now. But then the herd business started. They can't buffer up the safety of the walls right now, and putting inexperienced Alexandrians on watch would do jack and shit. Again, up until now, they have no comprehension whatsoever who the Wolves were, their numbers, if they would even come around, etc.
Touched on Spencer already, the one guy with the only bird's eye view. And as for the rest, it doesn't really matter, because even if they were on watch somewhere, I reiterate... "too many blindspots"... especially for the few people in Alexandria who actually get things. Alexandria may not seem as huge as it should be because of budget constraints, but it is, and everyone else is either at home or has their own jobs to attend to given to them by Deanna, which doesn't include preparation for human marauders. Rick hasn't done a complete overhaul of the system yet, after all.
Sure, I could, because Alexandria has been set up as a populace of idiots, the vast majority of which are unfamiliar with guns and getting their hands dirty. Most of them have never done this before, and Rick hasn't started shaping up the Alexandrians just yet, because he's got his hands full at the moment. And even if you're just talking about those who know what they were doing, I point out again that their numbers are not staggering, and they have no idea that the Wolves are on the way or that they are in such numbers that they can invade from many different areas. Not even Aaron could predict that because he's never even seen them, just their zombies.
Barring Spencer, the witless wonder, we know Rosita is on watch somewhere because Rick gave her that job. Maggie is keeping an eye on Deanna. Carol is playing up her little homemaker role. Carl is with his sister. Eugene isn't a good first line of defense at any position. Tara, if I remember correctly, is still recovering. Aaron could potentially be on watch, and for the sake of argument let's say Eric is too. Three people and one idiot who consistently messes up on watch, of an entire compound with walls that are badly designed on all corners. Yeah, I'm not liking their chances, even if we're being really generous with who is keeping watch.
Edit: Oh yeah, and Richard, the molotov guy, who wasn't doing a bang up job himself. Wish I could analyze his character more, but I'm pretty sure we've never been introduced to him.
You do have one point about considering the possibility of the plan going awry, but remember these people also believe their walls are nigh impenetrable. Rick's forward thinking hasn't caught onto the rest of them yet. They have never dealt with a human raid like this before. Attackers who are intelligent and can work out how to fuck with the flaws in the wall. Zombies can't. And again, even if those who believe the plan could go wrong were on watch, it doesn't matter, because the walkers are being led on one side of Alexandria, and can only come from that direction. The Wolves can, and did, come from all over the place.
No, you didn't. You posted the best case scenario. I posted the reality of what is going on. In a world where everything goes right, Deanna would have already started putting the other Alexandrians to work in getting gun smart and being prepared for anything. But she doesn't want to take any control anymore and just does what Rick says, and Rick ain't giving orders right now. Plus, she's grieving and has no drive anymore. The human error here is minimal once you actually take stock of how up shit creek Alexandria is at this moment in terms of safety, and remember that this is entirely in keeping with the characterization of the Alexandrians, and how they simply aren't ready for the real world yet, and those that are are divided and minimal.
Yeah, as you may have seen already, I elaborated on that in a response to someone else. All things considered, it wasn't very well put together in my opinion.
As far as the walkers go, I don't see how they would be in the way of getting back to Alexandria, unless Rick tries to do something to contain them. I wouldn't be surprised if that ends up being the case, and it's obviously a potential reason for him personally not being back at Alexandria. Regardless though, it would still be odd if no one was sent back to the community at all.
I have nothing to add to this. Your argument is fantastic, you have solid points, and while I don't entirely agree with everything you're saying, and I still strongly believe it could have been better, I respect your opinion a lot. Kudos to you dude.