Ludd saying "we were both forced, by time and circumstance."
When you play as a Rodrik, and decide to go after Ludd, he says that. I don't get what he meant by that..
The Whitehills are the ones that started this whole war with their arrogance, annoyance, disrespect-fullness, beating up on the Forresters and other people in Ironrath, killing Asher/Rodrik (and to some extent, Ethan), etc. Ludd makes it sound like both houses had no choice, but it seems he's blind to the fact that he and Gryff essentially started this war.
Sign in to comment in this discussion.
Comments
Ludd is an arrogant douchebag that feels the Forresters are getting their due because supposedly the Forresters treated the Whitehills like shit in the past, so he just sees it as getting even. We don't know the full story behind the conflict, but it's clear something happened that Ludd couldn't get past.
"You Forresters have shit on us for generations"
Yeah, some Forrester must have done something terrible to a Whitehill in the past.
Was going to mention that. Obviously, we play as the Forresters, but I'm not blind to assume that something prior to the events of this game had to have happened. Now, whether that reason was trivial or not, we don't know. I do hope we eventually get a backstory of what had happened.
Anyways, my point still remains that the Whitehills were the ones that started this war.
Ludd is referring to the terms set by Ramsay, they have to go to war whether they like it or not. As much of an ass Ludd has been and despite all he's done, I personally believe he never actually wanted to go to war.
I think he wanted to go to war, until reality hit him in the face. His crafters and artisans aren't anywhere near as good as the Forresters. He knows that he will not be able to give the Boltons the quality products they are demanding, which is why in Episode 4 he tries to get Rodrik to bend the knee to him. If Rodrik dies in episode 4, and Asher is Lord he tries again. With Rodrik dead it fulfills Ramsay's orders, and with the Forrester workers under his control he will be able to produce the products he promised at the quality expected. Plus his daughter loves Ashers.
Of course because of his arrogance, and hatred towards the Forresters it all went to hell anyways.
Disagree. Ludd definitely wanted to go to war on his accord.
I don't think Ludd feared Ramsay at all, and if he didn't want war, it wouldn't have happened. Remember when Ramsay set the terms of the Forresters and Whitehills each getting 50% of the ironwood? Ludd still demanded 100% of it, and when we bring up that Ramsay said 50% each, Ludd said he doesn't give a damn what Ramsay said, and that Lord Bolton (Roose) would side with the Whitehills anyway.
To Brock Samson.
In all fairness, I think the Asher/Gwyn marriage would have gone through had Asher and/or Elissa (depending on what you picked) not screwed it up.
Now, whether Asher would have gotten his throat cut out in his sleep or something when he produced heirs with Gwyn, that's another story.
It definitely sounded like he was referencing Ramsay telling them to go at one another, but re: the Forrester and Whitehill feud I don't think at this point anyone even remembers much of the specifics. It's just we hate them and always have so who cares why. It sounds like they've had serious problems for centuries and I definitely think Ludd wanted the war. Hell, I think the Whitehills as a whole (minus Gwyn of course) did. It got to where I wanted the war too, to be honest...
I think what Ludd is really means is that it wasn't so much personal as it was business. The Forresters were bannerman to the Starks, while the Whitehills were bannerman to the Boltons. When Roose Bolton turned on Robb Stark at the Twins the Whitehills had no choice but to follow suit. Roose's betrayal put the Forresters and Whitehills on two different sides of a war.
One could argue that Ludd could have been a nice guy and not move against the Forresters but honestly that would have been bad business. When you play the game of thrones you win or you die. Ludd has to act in the benefit of his house and the Forrester's ironwood was too valuable to pass up. The fact that the Whitehills also got to settle some old scores was a fringe benefit. At least that is my read on it all.
Ludd fears Ramsay. If wouldn't want a war with the Boltons, so he followed his orders.
If Ludd feared Ramsay, then why did he disregard his order about splitting the ironwood?
Also, the Whitehills have been the Bolton's bannermen for years. I doubt a war would have ensued over something so trivial as this. Roose would have overruled whatever Ramsay said anyway.
I think Ludd initially had the idea they were very important and had the Boltons at their back. By the time Episode 6 rolls around, Ludd had realized Ramsay doesn't consider them worth the paper their ironwood is only good for making.
He's in an advantageous position over the forresters but not NEARLY as much as he believes.
And, in my game, at least, pays for it with his life.
I can't agree. Ludd is in every bit of the advantageous position he perceived. He may end up dead (in your game) but the Whitehills won that war. House Forrester has fallen for all intents and purposes. Half of the Forrester family is in the ground, Ironrath is burned. The ironwood forest now belongs to the Whitehills. The lands and farms that supplied House Forester will now supply House Whitehill. Ludd has three living sons so his heir will easily assume power in Highpoint.
I guess they were threatened when Asher showed up that he and his pit fighters were going to kill him, even Gywn says ludd is afraid of him so he may have been forced to by fear.
Actually his only son to inherit the Lordship of House Whitehill is Gryff. Because remember Karl died of grayscale, then Ebbert works as a Maester at the Citadel, and Torrhen serves Roose Bolton as a ward I believe.
But Torrhen could just leave Roose Bolton's service to take his place as lord. Lots of heirs were fostered in other families (see Robert, for instance), but still left to rule when their time came.
The weird thing is that technically, they were all bannermen of the Starks. The Forresters served the Glovers, Stark loyalists, directly, while the Whitehills served House Bolton.
Being fostered as a ward doesn't exclude you from becoming Lord, the very fact that Torrhen is Ludd's heir apparent is probably the reason Roose took him as his ward. Roose wishes to ensure Ludd's loyalty, holding his heir is a good method also Roose wishes to form a fatherly bond with Torrhen, so that when he becomes Lord, he's more likely to be loyal to Roose.
Torrhen will become Lord if you killed Ludd. Unless he has also died offscreen.
It's also notable that Ludd is wanting to raise an army to deal with the Forresters in a way which will allow him to utterly crush them. While Ludd manages to win over Ironrath, Asher's sellswords are very-very good at killing people in hand-to-hand-combat.
Which is what it ends up being.
I can't imagine the Whitehill army is in very good shape right now.
It is a confusing system and I remember reading somewhere that in hindsight George Martin wished he would of used more descriptive titles such as Baron, Duke, etc instead of Lord for everything. Its true that the Starks were the Wardens of the North and thus all northern houses swore fealty to them but after the Red Wedding the Boltons were the new Wardens of the North.
But from what I have been able to gather about the feudal system in Game of Thrones is that each large house has several smaller houses that swear primarily to them first. Then the larger house swears to the warden and then the warden swears to the king and they all serve at the king's pleasure. Which now as read all that I just kind of confused myself. lol
Yes, one son died of greyscale and one is a maester at the citadel but I don't think the other son is a ward of Roose Bolton. I think he just is serving with Roose Bolton, perhaps fighting on the front lines with him. Wards are usually children unless they are also hostages. Griff is the youngest son so I would imagine that whatever son is serving Roose would be too old to be a ward still. In any case whether he is a ward or not, I imagine in the event of his father's death he would allowed to return home to take his rightful place at Highpoint. Unless of course in season two Tell Tale decides to save time and not animate a new character model and just puts Griff in the role of the new Lord Whitehill.
In episode six, they said that Ludd Whitehill had hundreds of soldiers waiting outside Ironrath. Inside Ironrath I saw maybe a couple dozen fighters or so. As skilled as those sell swords might be I doubt they were able to put much of a dent in Lord Whitehill's army. Perhaps I am wrong but in any case I'd wager the Whitehill army is in much better shape than the Forrester army. Plus, as I pointed out in my last post, the Whitehills come out with new lands, wealth and power in the region. Making it easy to replace their losses.
I think Ludd feared/respected Ramsay but I also think that Ludd knew what he could and could not get away with. He felt that while appropriating all the Ironwood might upset Ramsay it was likely to be a minor issue.
Yeah, I assume Torrhen is the villain because if Gryff were in charge of House Whitehill, then I wouldn't be afraid since he'd run it into the ground within a week.
The Whitehills already had all of that wealth, power, and land since they were the liege lords of the Forresters under the Boltons. They just had to put down a revolt, so to speak, which they didn't really succeed at since they lost the garrison and had to retake it.
They also potentially lost all of the Smallfolk who actually CAN work Ironwood as well as one of their family.
It's a costly victory for the Whitehills and one which may destroy them in the long run, especially as they still haven't managed to secure a deal to buy Ironwood from the crown.
Mogryn, after all, doesn't want to help House Whitehill. He wants to help himself.