self-conscious woman. That's a step forward. Nonetheless, she is very "girly" when she tries to convince Guybrush to help her. A little more bossiness instead of blinking lids would have been appropriate. She should have also shown more scepticism about LeChuck's sudden change, she seems to be really naive here. Her irritating actions at the end of the episode were really ennerving. She could have sailed with Guybrush, get herself cured and bring the monkeys back later. I really hope there's a reason for this.
Nonetheless, she is very "girly" when she tries to convince Guybrush to help her. A little more bossiness instead of blinking lids would have been appropriate.
She's bossy at the start of that conversation to be fair. It's not exactly out of character seeing her manipulate Guybrush using her girlish charms and I think that it adds more depth to her character. Not to mention a nice reference to the Navigator's head in SOMI
She should have also shown more scepticism about LeChuck's sudden change, she seems to be really naive here.
Don't forget she spent a fair amount of time with Lechuck before arriving on the island. He had more than enough time to earn her trust. Heck I even trust he's safe after the last episode.
But then I believe that Lechuck has been rid of all evil after being stabbed with The Kutlass of Kaflu
Her irritating actions at the end of the episode were really ennerving. She could have sailed with Guybrush, get herself cured and bring the monkeys back later. I really hope there's a reason for this.
Well from a plot point of view, i'd guess that Lechuck will revert back to his zombie/pox form (either by the sponge or some other way) and instead of saving the monkeys, will try and finish his voodoo spell once they're all gathered again.
Having Elaine there will make her an easy target for yet another kidnapping.
From a character point of view I don't think Elaine is being as naive as you think. She does say "I think someone needs to keep an eye on Lechuck".
It actually shows her as a strong independent woman, as she's made her own choice to look for the monkeys while Guybrush seeks the cure to the pox.
She's showing confidence in her husband that he can get the job done by himself, while she helps look for the monkeys along with Lechuck.
That is if you believe (like me) Elaine isn't interested in Lechuck romantically. Otherwise you could say she's simply staying to get her leg over...you know...whatever...:(
I always saw Elaine as tough and independent, yet having some inexplicable soft spot for Guybrush. Who knows, opposites attract? The dock scene in MI1 is pretty clear that she's really in love with him, and he almost manages to win her back in MI2. I think her whole MI2 attitude was more a denial thing, where she knew being in love with Guybrush wouldn't fit with her image. Then in Curse, she realises that there's no point and accepts the fact that she's in love with him (while still being tough, according to the intro and the deleted scene).
Come Tales, they've been married for a while and both got used to the situation. Elaine is still headstrong and independent (a little too much perhaps), but still obviously in love with Guybrush. The ambiguity with non-cursed LeChuck is probably for storytelling reasons on Guybrush's part. It's only episode 2, after all, it'd be a shame if we could easily predict the rest of the storyline.
I always saw Elaine as tough and independent, yet having some inexplicable soft spot for Guybrush.
Likewise. In MI1-MI2 I got the impression that Elaine basically knows that Guybrush isn't good for her and their relationship most likely will not work, but she can't help herself falling for him over and over again. That's what the governor's mansion scene in MI2 is all about. Guybrush is just so damn... sweet
Alright, after this second episode things between Guybrush and Elaine could become interesting again. Elaine is "keeping an eye" on LeChuck and he is a real charmer now. He even has the same childishness that Guybrush is known for.
And Guybrush seemed really flattered when Morgan spoke of him as a real pirate. He was slightly infatuated.
Surely Guybrush and Elaine will remember their love, but this situation could diminish the mistakes of MI 3+4. Their relationship could finally get some teeth again.
The dock scene in MI1 is pretty clear that she's really in love with him, and he almost manages to win her back in MI2. I think her whole MI2 attitude was more a denial thing, where she knew being in love with Guybrush wouldn't fit with her image.
Umm.. nope.
MI1 ending is a parody of Hollywood love story endings - you have fireworks, a boy and a girl, a love-story soundtrack but neither the dialogue or their pose suggests any kind of romance.
In MI2 Elaine is a support character, largely unimportant. I just love the joke with naming her dog Guybrush, it shows so clearly what she really feels about our hero.
From MI3 onward the characters changed severely to fit the new "wacky cartoony" direction. Guybrush was now way snarkier and meaner but also clumsier then ever before, LeChuck became cheesy comic-relief villain and Elaine was stuck in a motherly/wifey role.
Telltales'e Elaine fits the mold given by MI3, and I cannot find any complaints about it. There definitely is a reason why she and LeChuck are so chummy and it's too early to judge whether Telltale has screwed up the characters even further or (more probably) has some really interesting surprises down the line.
Let's wait until and of Season and then we will see...
MI1 ending is a parody of Hollywood love story endings - you have fireworks, a boy and a girl, a love-story soundtrack but neither the dialogue or their pose suggests any kind of romance.
Yeah, I guess if you ignore pretty much the entirety of their dialogue in the mansion and on the dock, and most of their dialogue in MI2, I could see how you might think there's no suggestion of a romance.
Yeah, I guess if you ignore pretty much the entirety of their dialogue in the mansion and on the dock, and most of their dialogue in MI2, I could see how you might think there's no suggestion of a romance.
Which parts of MI1 dock dialogue convey romance exactly? The part where Elaine says that she has a husband, or the part where Guybrush says he learned never to spend more then 20 bucks on a computer game?
The dock scene in MI1 is pretty clear that she's really in love with him.
Yep, for sure.
Edit: Btw, I really dig how Elaine and Guybrush initially looked, as opposed to their modern cartoony counterparts. And don't even get me started about Vanilla Ice and Baseball-Cap-Hairdo in the Special Edition:
Which parts of MI1 dock dialogue convey romance exactly? The part where Elaine says that she has a husband, or the part where Guybrush says he learned never to spend more then 20 bucks on a computer game?
The part where they say
Guybrush : Who would have known, or even cared, if you'd let me drown?
Governor : I would have, Guybrush.
Guybrush : Oh, Governor...
Governor : Oh, Threepwood...
Guybrush : Oh, Elaine!
Governor : Oh, Guybrush!
Guybrush : Love muffin!
Governor : Sugar boots!
Guybrush : Honey pumpkin!
Governor : Plunder bunny!
Guybrush : Kiss me!
Governor : No! We mustn't!
Guybrush : What?
Governor : Not here, where everyone can see us.
Guybrush : Why, are you ashamed of me?
Governor : No, no, it's not that at all... It's just that many of these pirates have made advances toward me. And to avoid hurting their feelings, I've always told them that my father made me promise never to fall in love with a pirate. If they see us together, they'll know I was lying.
Guybrush : Okay then, let's go to your place.
Governor : Okay.
Governor : But finish your trials first. I don't want you to be... preoccupied.
Elaine is a politician; she knows that being openly "bad-ass" is rarely the best solution. With someone stupid like LeChuck, ruses and tricks usually work; with her "Mighty Pirate" husband, she may as well play along with his aggrandized ego ("Oh sweetie, I wish you could [do the valiant sinking and rescueing], but...").
Her reason to stay behind and "keep an eye on LeChuck" is unclear at the moment. Of course she may suspect that LeChuck may revert to his old evil self, but I think it is even more likely that she fears the clueless (and by now harmless) LeChuck may not be able to fend for himself, especially should McGillicutty return and go on a revenge campaign.
The part where Elaine says that she has a husband, or the part where Guybrush says he learned never to spend more then 20 bucks on a computer game?
As far as I understand, when she says "That's something like my husband would say", she hints at Guybrush being her husband.
Btw, I really dig how Elaine and Guybrush initially looked, as opposed to their modern cartoony counterparts. And don't even get me started about Vanilla Ice and Baseball-Cap-Hairdo in the Special Edition:
I like SoMI:SE Elaine. Guybrush, well, can't say I don't like him, but... SoMI:SE Guybrush is nowhere near MI2 and MI4 Guybrushes (yes, I DO like MI4 Guybrush design The red coat is cool)
As far as I understand, when she says "That's something like my husband would say", she hints at Guybrush being her husband.
That doesn't really make sense. If that was what she meant to convey, she would have said something more like, "That sounds like something a man I would marry would say" or something more along those lines. I think the joke was that Elaine was already married, and Guybrush's reaction was more like "Oh crap, I've been dating a married woman!"
However, since they never mention it again in any other game (not even MI2, if you only count that as canon), I'm pretty sure it's just a throw-away joke.
Now, about the romance between Guybrush and Elaine. You can't deny they were attracted to each other during the dock scene (as in, the scene after you climb out of the water). The question from there becomes a question of whether or not it was real, or just a "flash in the pan."
True, during the final scene they aren't in a "romantic pose," but that's only if you conclude that it's not romantic unless they're passionately making out (which is beyond ridiculous). Personally, I think it does look romantic. As far as the dialogue, they aren't gushing with the love-dovey talk, but that doesn't necessarily preclude romance either, and Guybrush did make a remark Lechuck exploding against the night sky was (as off-beat a remark as it was).
In M12, we've learned that they since broke up. First, you can't break up if you weren't romantic at least to some extent to begin with (so it kinda doesn't fit with the "there was no romance at all in MI1!" theory). So now it's a question of whether it's over and done with for good, or whether they will patch things up and get back together. If you're assuming that there is no romance because they broke up, then you're forgetting something. Sometimes this happens in real romances, and doesn't necessarily mean that it was all fake to begin with.
My point is that no, they don't have a hollywood romance. They've had their differences, but that doesn't necessarily mean there's nothing going on between them (or the potential of something between them). Ron probably had them break up for drama's sake, since a relationship that simply works without a hitch is not good drama or storytelling. It doesn't mean that he intended them to never, ever get together.
Btw, in this review you can find Ron Gilbert's thoughts on how he managed Elaine/Guybrush relationship and how she really should have seen him in the future games (not so much as a romantic interest, but rather as an annoying little brother).
Also, that interview is about a decade old, and this bit is rather interesting from today's perspective:
Some fans would like to see MI1 remade with today's graphic and voices. Is that something you think is a good idea or do you feel it should be left as it is, for nostalgic reasons?
Ron: Remaking MI1 would be a huge mistake and wouldn't add anything to the game. Having recently played the game again, it's just fine.
I always get the impression that there was a sort of 'mothering' aspect to the relationship between Guybrush and Elaine, which was the reason for both them getting together (she liked the fact that he was infatuated with her without trying to act all tough to impress her like the proper pirates) initially and for them to eventually split up (she got fed up of looking after him and tidying up his mistakes all the time, and wanted someone more equal to her).
Either way, a sister/brother relationship that involves the 'sister' getting the 'brother' to do what she wants by flirting and promising lover stuff is just...wrong on so many levels... :eek:
I really liked her character in chapter 2, the part where
she and Guybrush have the "please?" "no" "please?" "no" conversation left me with a huge grin on my face. Faithful to the Monkey Island series, though it's usually Guybrush who is saying the "please?" part. Elaine showed her feminine side though some comical dialogue, and it didn't make her character seem weak or anything.
I think it's good for Elaine to deliver some comedy. She still has a good strong character (though her
cry for help towards the end of chapter 2
made me cringe a little,
but on the other hand it's good to see Guybrush looking out for her the way she helps him, so there's still some nice balance there
) but if she's just a tough, smart love interest for the main character, she would be a bit boring. So I'm always glad to see that she is capable of delivering some amusing dialogue too!
... wow, I think I worded that in such a way, it made it sound more complicated than it really is.
Basically, Elaine had a good role in chapter 2 so nice one, Telltale!
Btw, in this review you can find Ron Gilbert's thoughts on how he managed Elaine/Guybrush relationship and how she really should have seen him in the future games (not so much as a romantic interest, but rather as an annoying little brother).
I guess you're right there, however MI didn't belong to Ron and Ron alone. It was his idea, and he was the designer, but there were other creative voices aside from his. Grossman and Shafer helped write it, so they had creative input as well. Even if Ron worked directly on designing a new MI, it wouldn't necessarily mean that he would get his way every single time, or that everything he said would overwrite anything else. I mean, technically it might be his perogative as lead creator/designer, but taking that sort of attitude all the time would alienate the rest of the team (I don't think he has the clout that someone like George Lucas has for insisting that he has the absolute final word).
Personally, I kind of like the romance between Guybrush and Elaine. The differences between them and all the friction simply makes it more real. It's more dramatic when there's some tension. If it simply worked, or simply failed, with no real conflict, it wouldn't be very dramatic.
That might be against what Ron said, but that doesn't bother me. I'm not the kind of person who feels like he must instantly accept & incorporate any and every off-hand remark made by the creator into my interpretation of their work, especially if the product was a team effort. I go by what's contained in the work itself, not what the creator said in some informal interview. I also don't consider the original creator to be the only person "authorized" to expand on it, especially when others involved in the original creation are working on it.
But hey, if that's the way you approach it, there's nothing wrong with that. If you only consider MI 1 and 2 to be the only real games, and the rest to be more or less high-quality fan fiction (well, except for MI4, which was a little...meh), then it doesn't bother me. As long as you aren't the type who insists that all other MI fans should view it the same way as you do, or else we're all traitors or something, then I've got no problem having a reasonable debate.
Okay I know MI isn't property of R.G. anymore, and the world of MI has evolved without him, but, Guybrush and Elaine were never meant to become that close, marriage took it a little too far. here is what R.G. said after playing CMI, he wasnt very happy about the direction the writers were going with the relationship...here is part of a conversation with fans in an IRC channel
<CaliMonk> I think what they really mean is that we MI fans never really felt that CMI was a sequal to MI, because so many things didn't fit and actualy made any sense.
<DJG> And we want to know what the REAL story is.
<Ron-G> It is true that CMI was not what I was planning, but I do think they did a pretty good job of captuing what MI was about. There were a couple of things they didn't get right that bugged me
<Ron-G> One was the relationship between GB and Elaine.
<Ron-G> Elaine never really liked GB and thought of him as more of a little brother.
<Ron-G> That was the thing that bugged me the most about CMI.
<Ron-G> As far as my story for MI3...
<Ron-G> I've always kept that a secret.
There he said it himself... Elaine thought of Guybrush as a younger brother... maybe she did fancy him a little bit after they first met, but that was before she knew Guybrush, as you can see here, the thing R.G. was most unhappy about was the GB Elaine relationship
Well, regardless of the GB-Elaine relationship being planned or not, I do think it worked out well as a plot device.
Elaine sends you on quests and you can return to her if you are drifting and forgot what it is you need to do. This works very well in MI4 and ToMI.
Also, if Elaine would reject Guybrush, or keep teasing him, the player may start to wonder why he continues going though all that never ending trouble saving her from LeChuck.
Comments
Episode 2 shows Elaine as a
But then I believe that Lechuck has been rid of all evil after being stabbed with The Kutlass of Kaflu
Having Elaine there will make her an easy target for yet another kidnapping.
From a character point of view I don't think Elaine is being as naive as you think. She does say "I think someone needs to keep an eye on Lechuck".
It actually shows her as a strong independent woman, as she's made her own choice to look for the monkeys while Guybrush seeks the cure to the pox.
She's showing confidence in her husband that he can get the job done by himself, while she helps look for the monkeys along with Lechuck.
That is if you believe (like me) Elaine isn't interested in Lechuck romantically. Otherwise you could say she's simply staying to get her leg over...you know...whatever...:(
Come Tales, they've been married for a while and both got used to the situation. Elaine is still headstrong and independent (a little too much perhaps), but still obviously in love with Guybrush. The ambiguity with non-cursed LeChuck is probably for storytelling reasons on Guybrush's part. It's only episode 2, after all, it'd be a shame if we could easily predict the rest of the storyline.
And Guybrush seemed really flattered when Morgan spoke of him as a real pirate. He was slightly infatuated.
Surely Guybrush and Elaine will remember their love, but this situation could diminish the mistakes of MI 3+4. Their relationship could finally get some teeth again.
Umm.. nope.
MI1 ending is a parody of Hollywood love story endings - you have fireworks, a boy and a girl, a love-story soundtrack but neither the dialogue or their pose suggests any kind of romance.
In MI2 Elaine is a support character, largely unimportant. I just love the joke with naming her dog Guybrush, it shows so clearly what she really feels about our hero.
From MI3 onward the characters changed severely to fit the new "wacky cartoony" direction. Guybrush was now way snarkier and meaner but also clumsier then ever before, LeChuck became cheesy comic-relief villain and Elaine was stuck in a motherly/wifey role.
Telltales'e Elaine fits the mold given by MI3, and I cannot find any complaints about it. There definitely is a reason why she and LeChuck are so chummy and it's too early to judge whether Telltale has screwed up the characters even further or (more probably) has some really interesting surprises down the line.
Let's wait until and of Season and then we will see...
Yeah, I guess if you ignore pretty much the entirety of their dialogue in the mansion and on the dock, and most of their dialogue in MI2, I could see how you might think there's no suggestion of a romance.
Which parts of MI1 dock dialogue convey romance exactly? The part where Elaine says that she has a husband, or the part where Guybrush says he learned never to spend more then 20 bucks on a computer game?
http://www.vgmuseum.com/end/scd/a/smon.htm
Yep, for sure.
Edit: Btw, I really dig how Elaine and Guybrush initially looked, as opposed to their modern cartoony counterparts. And don't even get me started about Vanilla Ice and Baseball-Cap-Hairdo in the Special Edition:
The part where they say
Her reason to stay behind and "keep an eye on LeChuck" is unclear at the moment. Of course she may suspect that LeChuck may revert to his old evil self, but I think it is even more likely that she fears the clueless (and by now harmless) LeChuck may not be able to fend for himself, especially should McGillicutty return and go on a revenge campaign.
As far as I understand, when she says "That's something like my husband would say", she hints at Guybrush being her husband.
I like SoMI:SE Elaine. Guybrush, well, can't say I don't like him, but... SoMI:SE Guybrush is nowhere near MI2 and MI4 Guybrushes (yes, I DO like MI4 Guybrush design
That doesn't really make sense. If that was what she meant to convey, she would have said something more like, "That sounds like something a man I would marry would say" or something more along those lines. I think the joke was that Elaine was already married, and Guybrush's reaction was more like "Oh crap, I've been dating a married woman!"
However, since they never mention it again in any other game (not even MI2, if you only count that as canon), I'm pretty sure it's just a throw-away joke.
Now, about the romance between Guybrush and Elaine. You can't deny they were attracted to each other during the dock scene (as in, the scene after you climb out of the water). The question from there becomes a question of whether or not it was real, or just a "flash in the pan."
True, during the final scene they aren't in a "romantic pose," but that's only if you conclude that it's not romantic unless they're passionately making out (which is beyond ridiculous). Personally, I think it does look romantic. As far as the dialogue, they aren't gushing with the love-dovey talk, but that doesn't necessarily preclude romance either, and Guybrush did make a remark Lechuck exploding against the night sky was (as off-beat a remark as it was).
In M12, we've learned that they since broke up. First, you can't break up if you weren't romantic at least to some extent to begin with (so it kinda doesn't fit with the "there was no romance at all in MI1!" theory). So now it's a question of whether it's over and done with for good, or whether they will patch things up and get back together. If you're assuming that there is no romance because they broke up, then you're forgetting something. Sometimes this happens in real romances, and doesn't necessarily mean that it was all fake to begin with.
My point is that no, they don't have a hollywood romance. They've had their differences, but that doesn't necessarily mean there's nothing going on between them (or the potential of something between them). Ron probably had them break up for drama's sake, since a relationship that simply works without a hitch is not good drama or storytelling. It doesn't mean that he intended them to never, ever get together.
Also, that interview is about a decade old, and this bit is rather interesting from today's perspective:
Ron, hate to break it to you...
He didn't really say anything against SoMI:SE in his Grumpy Gamer blog (or anywhere else, AFAIK, for that matter), though.
Either way, a sister/brother relationship that involves the 'sister' getting the 'brother' to do what she wants by flirting and promising lover stuff is just...wrong on so many levels... :eek:
I think it's good for Elaine to deliver some comedy. She still has a good strong character (though her
... wow, I think I worded that in such a way, it made it sound more complicated than it really is.
Basically, Elaine had a good role in chapter 2 so nice one, Telltale!
I guess you're right there, however MI didn't belong to Ron and Ron alone. It was his idea, and he was the designer, but there were other creative voices aside from his. Grossman and Shafer helped write it, so they had creative input as well. Even if Ron worked directly on designing a new MI, it wouldn't necessarily mean that he would get his way every single time, or that everything he said would overwrite anything else. I mean, technically it might be his perogative as lead creator/designer, but taking that sort of attitude all the time would alienate the rest of the team (I don't think he has the clout that someone like George Lucas has for insisting that he has the absolute final word).
Personally, I kind of like the romance between Guybrush and Elaine. The differences between them and all the friction simply makes it more real. It's more dramatic when there's some tension. If it simply worked, or simply failed, with no real conflict, it wouldn't be very dramatic.
That might be against what Ron said, but that doesn't bother me. I'm not the kind of person who feels like he must instantly accept & incorporate any and every off-hand remark made by the creator into my interpretation of their work, especially if the product was a team effort. I go by what's contained in the work itself, not what the creator said in some informal interview. I also don't consider the original creator to be the only person "authorized" to expand on it, especially when others involved in the original creation are working on it.
But hey, if that's the way you approach it, there's nothing wrong with that. If you only consider MI 1 and 2 to be the only real games, and the rest to be more or less high-quality fan fiction (well, except for MI4, which was a little...meh), then it doesn't bother me. As long as you aren't the type who insists that all other MI fans should view it the same way as you do, or else we're all traitors or something, then I've got no problem having a reasonable debate.
<CaliMonk> I think what they really mean is that we MI fans never really felt that CMI was a sequal to MI, because so many things didn't fit and actualy made any sense.
<DJG> And we want to know what the REAL story is.
<Ron-G> It is true that CMI was not what I was planning, but I do think they did a pretty good job of captuing what MI was about. There were a couple of things they didn't get right that bugged me
<Ron-G> One was the relationship between GB and Elaine.
<Ron-G> Elaine never really liked GB and thought of him as more of a little brother.
<Ron-G> That was the thing that bugged me the most about CMI.
<Ron-G> As far as my story for MI3...
<Ron-G> I've always kept that a secret.
There he said it himself... Elaine thought of Guybrush as a younger brother... maybe she did fancy him a little bit after they first met, but that was before she knew Guybrush, as you can see here, the thing R.G. was most unhappy about was the GB Elaine relationship
the full conversation can be read here - http://www.scummbar.com/resources/articles/index.php?newssniffer=readarticle&article=1004
Elaine sends you on quests and you can return to her if you are drifting and forgot what it is you need to do. This works very well in MI4 and ToMI.
Also, if Elaine would reject Guybrush, or keep teasing him, the player may start to wonder why he continues going though all that never ending trouble saving her from LeChuck.