We will see. I'm pretty sure that if there's a conflict between a main one and one you think secondary, it doesn't mean the main one will win. It's not that linear.
I never saw that mention of this. Any link? The dance of dragons 2.0 could mean targaryen vs targaryen, aswell as owner of dragon vs owner of dragon.
Ned was a main character in aGoT, but he is also character of the older generation and this is mostly a story of the new generation of Weste… moreros. Another old generation PoV that was killed off was Catelyn (LSH isn't a PoV).
Ned dying doesn't mean the ones I just said wouldn't be main characters - why would it? And as I said main characters don't have to be unkillable either, and they don't have to be your favorite characters. But in the long run aSoIaF is mainly the story of those characters. Sure, it's also story of Westeros in general, but if it was only meant to be a story about Westeros rather than character driven story, there would be no need to do it via PoVs in the first place.
Edit: Oh, and GRRM has confirmed there will be Dance of Dragons vol. 2 in the story. So unless he is planning a civil war between Dany and Jon, there will be a war between fAegon and Dany.
Well, Dany being main and Aegon/JonCon/Arianne secondary isn't really the only reason why Dany is more likely to win, but sure, I guess her six-book-arc could end to being crushed by the guy who just appeared on book 5. I sure wouldn't like that, but I suppose it's not impossible.
We will see. I'm pretty sure that if there's a conflict between a main one and one you think secondary, it doesn't mean the main one will wi… moren. It's not that linear.
I never saw that mention of this. Any link? The dance of dragons 2.0 could mean targaryen vs targaryen, aswell as owner of dragon vs owner of dragon.
Well, Dany being main and Aegon/JonCon/Arianne secondary isn't really the only reason why Dany is more likely to win, but sure, I guess her … moresix-book-arc could end to being crushed by the guy who just appeared on book 5. I sure wouldn't like that, but I suppose it's not impossible.
About the second DoD: GRRM's statement about it
And I personally think DoD 2.0 means a Targaryen civil war, but sure, maybe it could mean something else.
Like these are mutually excluding. Remember what he did to his dad's mistress just for enjoying her position? And then to Tyrion's little wife just for resembling her and as a lesson to Tyrion? Whom he also treated like shit for "killing" his love as well as for being a dwarf? I mean, things like Castamere, Targ kids, RW are transparently strategic, but there is vengefulness in Tywin as well.
Robb literally broke a sacred vow of marriage. During war times, he should've known better than to let his emotions supersede his plans.
… moreIf he married the Frey girl he'd have ruled the whole North. Tywin wouldn't have ordered the murder because he would probably just relinquish the north. It's not worth all the men that Robb's army killed when Stannis was going to attack. Tywin would've surrendered (cause he's not a vengeful man, he's a tactician) and everyone would be back in Winterfell.
Really the only one I'd consider evil is Roose. Tywin's involvement was completely tactical in the interest of preserving the lives of his men and putting an end to the war. Walder Frey is just a hot headed idiot who acted impulsively for all the years the Starks/ Tully's spit on him. Roose however was on it for greed and gain. He betrayed Robb with the intention of taking the North for himself.
Really the only one I'd consider evil is Roose. Tywin's involvement was completely tactical in the interest of preserving the lives of his m… moreen and putting an end to the war. Walder Frey is just a hot headed idiot who acted impulsively for all the years the Starks/ Tully's spit on him. Roose however was on it for greed and gain. He betrayed Robb with the intention of taking the North for himself.
Well remember Robb was discussing among the Northern lords whether they should side with Renly or Stannis. It wasn't until the Greatjon brought up the whole king in the north thing. Once all the Northern lords proclaimed him as such, it be kinda hard to deny it.
I blame Robb, for starting the whole King in the North bullshit. Too many innocent people died at the Red Wedding, but even more would've died if it didn't happen, so that's a good thing.
I can't understand people that blames Cat, and not Robb. Yes,she released Jaimie, to save her daughters. Robb married Talisa for his own fucking reasons.
I can't understand people that blames Cat, and not Robb. Yes,she released Jaimie, to save her daughters. Robb married Talisa for his own fucking reasons.
Catelyn Stark with her stupid move of freeing Jaime Lannister.
Once he was safe, the precious son of Tywin was no more a reason to avoid the red wedding.
Because it's his mother, and she killed no one I guess.
But the loss was real and keeping Jaime around was a way to protect the Stark's girls; without him as an hostage they had no reason to keep them alive or whatever..
Because it's his mother, and she killed no one I guess.
But the loss was real and keeping Jaime around was a way to protect the Stark's girls; without him as an hostage they had no reason to keep them alive or whatever..
Robb played a game he didn't know how to play. Instead of using the North, he kills his own bannerman Lord karstark, knowing it will jeopardize the recue of his sisters, sisters he doen't give a shit about since he thinks more of the pretty little Talisa than his family. Plus he agrees to marry Arya to a Frey without her consent. A nice brother. Then he broke his vows to the Freys. He just ruined it. The Freys, the Karstarks, all of them together could have got the job done. Robb is Nothing but a military commander. He does not deserve to be King, as his politics are terrible. He ruined the North, ruined the chance to rescue Sansa, so now she got raped, beaten, cut by Ramsay. All for some Talisa and his stupid principles. He had to fight for his family, for the independance of the North. Not for "justice". If he cared about justice, he would not have broken his vows. He's a damn oathbreaker, but more, he ruined everything for the North. Walder Frey is an s hole no doubt. But he won and did the smart thing. Robb did not do neither the right thing, nor the smart thing. He did the dumb thing, that judging, oathbreaker-executioner. Plus the conséquences of his actions were obvious and he was conscious of it. but he did it anyway. So now he's dead, his mother dead, Sansa raped, his talisa murdered together with his child. Good job, Robb. Deliberately ruining everything.
Roose is evil and cunning. Robb is good and stupid. Yet it's Robb's fault first, and then the Bolton's. Robb provoked this to happen. The traitors made it happen. makes perfect sense to me.
Really the only one I'd consider evil is Roose. Tywin's involvement was completely tactical in the interest of preserving the lives of his m… moreen and putting an end to the war. Walder Frey is just a hot headed idiot who acted impulsively for all the years the Starks/ Tully's spit on him. Roose however was on it for greed and gain. He betrayed Robb with the intention of taking the North for himself.
Try Westeros Total War, a Mod for Medieval II Total War.You get to play as one of the great houses of Westeros. I chose the Starks, distrusted Walder Frey without betraying him, I attacked him. Got attacked by the Greyjoys, Arryns. made an alliance with the Tyrells and they got King's landing, killed Joffrey, but also took Casterly Rock, killed tywin, Jaime and Tyrion. I attacked nobody but did counter strike aggressively, and got quite powerful. I got the north, the vale, and the iron Islands. Didn't declare myself King for diplomatic reasons. Titles are words, and words are Wind. So I did Something Robb failed to do: Win the war. Wasn't easy, nor very hard to be honest. Was ok.
Robb played a game he didn't know how to play. Instead of using the North, he kills his own bannerman Lord karstark, knowing it will jeopard… moreize the recue of his sisters, sisters he doen't give a shit about since he thinks more of the pretty little Talisa than his family. Plus he agrees to marry Arya to a Frey without her consent. A nice brother. Then he broke his vows to the Freys. He just ruined it. The Freys, the Karstarks, all of them together could have got the job done. Robb is Nothing but a military commander. He does not deserve to be King, as his politics are terrible. He ruined the North, ruined the chance to rescue Sansa, so now she got raped, beaten, cut by Ramsay. All for some Talisa and his stupid principles. He had to fight for his family, for the independance of the North. Not for "justice". If he cared about justice, he would not have broken his vows. He's a damn oathbreaker, but more, he ruined everything for the North. Walde… [view original content]
Why craven? Just stating facts. And yes House Stark is undeserving of Forrester loyalty. He ruined everything. When you lead men it's your responsibility to minimize the losses, not maximize friendly casualties. Traitor? How can I betray a dead man anyway? HE betrayed the north for his Volantis chick as Paris betrayed Troy for Helen. Not to mention his love story got Gregor killed, me stabbed and crushed Under a damn horse, Ethan easily murdered by Ramsay. We all know Nothing of this would have happened should he have stayed true to his words. And yes I'm a Forrester, trying to save this family after all the ruin Robb caused. So I don't think I deserve a blame here. Especially after saving Asher in the docks. I am a Forrester, and no craven, unlike what you may wish to say. Your insolence has no argumentation. It's worthless spiteful BS.
I think the great thing about game of thrones is that very rarely is someone 100% responsible for an outcome. There are many intricate plotlines and causes for motivation that leads one thing to another.
We can blame Robb. He broke his oath to Walder Frey. He put love over practicality, and though technically it was wrong, it is expected from a hero figure that the audience wants to sympathize with. True love is a romanticized ideal that people usually wouldn't blame the hero for falling for. Even then, we can't blame him for the breaking of sacred guest right and treachery. He was the victim.
We can blame Cat for letting Jaime escape. It was a tactfully stupid thing to do. But then we can still sympsthize with her motives, and she couldn't have known Jaime would run into the Boltons. Also, same with Robb, we can't blame her for being a victim of treachery.
Tywin, Walder, and Roose (especially Roose) are certainly to blame, and if I did have to point a finger, it would be at them. They are the ones that planned their treachery and murder of Robb and Cat, though it could be seen as pure strategy on Tywin's end. Nothing at the Red Wedding would have happened without their participation. Still, it was Robb and Cat that gave them their motivations in the first place, no matter their intentions. It's like a game of chess and one move can't happen without the one before it.
I understand that someone could partially blame Robb for the Red Wedding. Although I don't agree, I see the point of the people that do. But to blame him for what happened to Sansa? To say he betrayed the North? That's spiteful worthless BS. Robb Stark didn't fight in the war because he wanted some iron chair. He fought to bring the cunts that executed his father to justice. He was the only sympathetic king to me. He wanted justice. You know why he executed Karstark, his own bannerman? Because Karstark was a vengeful old cunt that cared nothing for justice, only revenge and his thirst for death of child Lannisters. It shouldn't matter if you're a lord or a pig farmer, you can't get away with that kind of treasonous murder. Karstark killed Stark men that were guarding the Lannister boys, why don't you blame him for the Red Wedding? If he could stray from his vendetta and focus on the real threat there wouldn't be this feud in the first place. And please stop talking about Talisa like some bedside wench, she was a good person. She was his family as much as Arya or Sansa. But he broke his oath right? He's a cunt! Well actually no. Frey could have gotten Edmure Tully, member of the strongest house in Riverlands, the goddamned heir to Riverlands. But before that he received a bag of Tywin's gold and decided to shit on one of the most ancient traditions in Westeros. Red Wedding had nothing to do with Robb not marrying Roslin, it was a construct of Frey's greed, Bolton's jealousy and Tywin's bribes. Robb Stark deserves better than your insults, "Lord Forrester".
Why craven? Just stating facts. And yes House Stark is undeserving of Forrester loyalty. He ruined everything. When you lead men it's your r… moreesponsibility to minimize the losses, not maximize friendly casualties. Traitor? How can I betray a dead man anyway? HE betrayed the north for his Volantis chick as Paris betrayed Troy for Helen. Not to mention his love story got Gregor killed, me stabbed and crushed Under a damn horse, Ethan easily murdered by Ramsay. We all know Nothing of this would have happened should he have stayed true to his words. And yes I'm a Forrester, trying to save this family after all the ruin Robb caused. So I don't think I deserve a blame here. Especially after saving Asher in the docks. I am a Forrester, and no craven, unlike what you may wish to say. Your insolence has no argumentation. It's worthless spiteful BS.
A brother would think of his sisters first, than his ideals later. But he is not coherent. Justice means also doing what you promised.
1. Breaking a promise is dishonourable and unfit of a king. He said that himself when he apologized to Frey and his daughters.
2. Doing very bad politics is also unfit of a king. The opportunity to reinforce his army was there and he screwed it up. Or didn't he? How many of his men will have to pay the price for that, even in open battle when he'll be outnumbered? I remind you his men will DIE for a damn LOVE STORY!! Even without any Frey betrayal. His men's lives are, excuse me, not his own to dispose of them like that. His bannermen are not his slaves he can just throw to a meatgrinder without acceptable reason. And the excuse "I love her" is not an acceptable excuse to sacrifice your men. I'd refuse to die for the romance of a king that apparently values it more than his own men. THAT is injustice. Would you really die for someone that sacrifices you to be happy himself? That's selfish, not noble, and once again, unfit for a king, because it's neither politically smart, nor morally correct.
3. Executing Karstark is just lending a hand to Tywin. Although you could say he deserves to die, perhaps he could get that punishment from the lannisters themselves. Or, provided he survived the war, provided the war ended in a Stark victory, Robb executes him AFTER the victory, not DURING the war. It's an incredible political mistake and it helped his downfall. Also, it's quite questionable if the capital punishment is justice. It's clearly not justice to me, especially when you're blinded by revenge. Karstark was wrong, yes, but even if he deserved to die, he'd better die killing a lannister man on the field. Killing him doesn't bring the poor boys back.
4. It's clear that Walder Frey is a traitor. But he betrayed a man that betrayed his trust. True Robb did not betray him by killing him at a wedding, and the red wedding is infamous for Frey. Yet, it's Robb that brought this on himself. But more importantly, on his family and the North. He provoked an asshole to kill his family. So it's his fault too. His job was preventing that to happen to all of them. it's his responsibility as family leader, as king. And he obviously messed up.
5. Power means responsibility. When you use power for your own interests with Talisa, you abuse of it. And that's all but responsible given the difficult war circumstances. I expect a king to be smart and cunning, not impulsive and irresponsible.
6. Wisdom shows that you can't get justice all the way. You may get your justice for Karstark but this way you doom your sister's right to be free and not raped by some bolton bastard. Did Sansa get treated with justice? You can't do justice to all unless you're the mightiest of Westeros. Letting that happen to his sisters he was supposed to protect as older brother, by deliberately weakening your forces, THAT is injustice to them. And also injustice to loyal houses that support the Starks for centuries. They deserve better care from their leader.
7. I judge with my mind and not by short-sighted, by the way biased views of justice. I see a failure for the North and I know it could be prevented by Robb. But he didn't. You can blame your enemies for your downfall but that's ridiculous, for there's always some asshole that wants to take your lands and women. You're blameless only if you did your very best to prevent a defeat and achieve victory. If you've made the enemy's work easier knowing it, yet still doing it, and failed, and sacrificed the north, your family, your bannermen that would damn DIE for you, for a formal marriage with Talisa and some biased view of justice, you are unworthy of the position of king, for your ruin your kingdom. Well, unless that's what a king is supposed to do, in which case I'd agree.
8. Consequently, it would seem my criticism of Robb's politics, actions and views is rather objective for it's based of cold hard facts. I'm not insulting him calling him a craven. But he did betray the north for his lover. And that wasn't his moral right. Not as king. He abandoned the idea of rescuing his sisters, the independance of the north for his own whims. That is a betrayal of the north. For he traded it for love. Self restraint, startegic, political reasoning, diplomacy, are supposed to help. He failed at that. And he let it happen. He was conscious of his actions, but he did it anyway. So, he did not do his job properly, for all the reasons stated above. It's incompetence when you don't know what you're doing. When you do and you still ruin it for yourself, it's betrayal of the north. Betrayal doesnt mean backstabbing. Backstabbing means betrayal. but if you abandon your family, you do betray them. And he abandoned the north, his siters, for his lover. That is passive betrayal. He was no backstabber, but he was a traitor to the north. I don't want to repeat myslef, I already explained why and how he did betray his sisters, and the North. Passive betrayal.
9.
I understand that someone could partially blame Robb for the Red Wedding. Although I don't agree, I see the point of the people that do. But… more to blame him for what happened to Sansa? To say he betrayed the North? That's spiteful worthless BS. Robb Stark didn't fight in the war because he wanted some iron chair. He fought to bring the cunts that executed his father to justice. He was the only sympathetic king to me. He wanted justice. You know why he executed Karstark, his own bannerman? Because Karstark was a vengeful old cunt that cared nothing for justice, only revenge and his thirst for death of child Lannisters. It shouldn't matter if you're a lord or a pig farmer, you can't get away with that kind of treasonous murder. Karstark killed Stark men that were guarding the Lannister boys, why don't you blame him for the Red Wedding? If he could stray from his vendetta and focus on the real threat there wouldn't be this feud in the first place. … [view original content]
Too long to read. I stand by Robb's side no matter what you just wrote so let's drop this argument. It's clear you put a lot of effort in writing it so I apologize for not delving in on it deeper. Frankly it's too long for me. I am going to answer some of your points though: Executing Karstark after winning the war would be seen by Karsatrks as an even bigger betrayal because Robb would use their men and their loyalty only to betray them after serving their purpose. THAT is injustice. And he didn't sacrifice his men for Talissa, how could anyone predict what would happen? The men that were slaughtered by Boltons/Freys were completely loyal to Robb, most of them would be willing to die for him. You put too much blame on Robb's shoulders, this was his first and final war, he fell in love and was blinded by it. But his intentions weren't vile, they were just.
A brother would think of his sisters first, than his ideals later. But he is not coherent. Justice means also doing what you promised.
1. B… morereaking a promise is dishonourable and unfit of a king. He said that himself when he apologized to Frey and his daughters.
2. Doing very bad politics is also unfit of a king. The opportunity to reinforce his army was there and he screwed it up. Or didn't he? How many of his men will have to pay the price for that, even in open battle when he'll be outnumbered? I remind you his men will DIE for a damn LOVE STORY!! Even without any Frey betrayal. His men's lives are, excuse me, not his own to dispose of them like that. His bannermen are not his slaves he can just throw to a meatgrinder without acceptable reason. And the excuse "I love her" is not an acceptable excuse to sacrifice your men. I'd refuse to die for the romance of a king that apparently values it more than his own men. THAT is injustice. Would … [view original content]
You have Nothing to apologize for, Malcolm. Sry, aManWhoLovesTelltale. It's not your job to read comments. About karstark though, he and his men swore an oath to serve Robb. So they're supposed to honor it. Executon Kartark later would force them to honor their vows by somewhat making them miscalculate. What's wrong with manipulating oathbreakers anyway. You should only be honourable to honourable men, and Karstarks are not. Sure Robb was blinded. That's his excuse. Still, the men he could have had should he have stayed true to his vows, the men he lost by Killing Karstark, all of that was predictable. So he did sacrifice them, on the field if not during a marriage, by being outnumbered.
Too long to read. I stand by Robb's side no matter what you just wrote so let's drop this argument. It's clear you put a lot of effort in wr… moreiting it so I apologize for not delving in on it deeper. Frankly it's too long for me. I am going to answer some of your points though: Executing Karstark after winning the war would be seen by Karsatrks as an even bigger betrayal because Robb would use their men and their loyalty only to betray them after serving their purpose. THAT is injustice. And he didn't sacrifice his men for Talissa, how could anyone predict what would happen? The men that were slaughtered by Boltons/Freys were completely loyal to Robb, most of them would be willing to die for him. You put too much blame on Robb's shoulders, this was his first and final war, he fell in love and was blinded by it. But his intentions weren't vile, they were just.
Robert Stark for some crucial errors. Catelyn Stark for some more. And that is it, I will not be blaming here Tywin, Roose or Walder since Rob gave Walder a good excuse, Roose took an oportunity and Tywin was their enemy from the start, can not blame the enemy, it is his function to fuck with you. Is valid to say that there were more people involved, we all know that in GOT what happens on every corner influenciates what is going on. Also, no one is truly accountable of nothing, people do what they believe is the best thing to do. Or the right thing.
I blame f u c k i n g Robb Stark and his stupidity.
He killed one of his greatest allies, left the North unprotected and vulnerable for the iron born to attack it.
He should have known that he was aroused by men of ambition(Roose Bolton,Walder Frey) and I blame his honor for marrying the wrong girl(Jeyne/Talisa) and have lost the war for it.
"It doesn't matter how the Stark boy fought only how he f u c k e d"
Robert Stark for some crucial errors. Catelyn Stark for some more. And that is it, I will not be blaming here Tywin, Roose or Walder since R… moreob gave Walder a good excuse, Roose took an oportunity and Tywin was their enemy from the start, can not blame the enemy, it is his function to fuck with you. Is valid to say that there were more people involved, we all know that in GOT what happens on every corner influenciates what is going on. Also, no one is truly accountable of nothing, people do what they believe is the best thing to do. Or the right thing.
If Robb had declared for Stannis or Renly Married the Frey girl and not sent Theon to the iron islands and got the Vale on his side
Robb could have had Tywins head and won the war
I blame f u c k i n g Robb Stark and his stupidity.
He killed one of his greatest allies, left the North unprotected and vulnerable for the… more iron born to attack it.
He should have known that he was aroused by men of ambition(Roose Bolton,Walder Frey) and I blame his honor for marrying the wrong girl(Jeyne/Talisa) and have lost the war for it.
"It doesn't matter how the Stark boy fought only how he f u c k e d"
Comments
We will see. I'm pretty sure that if there's a conflict between a main one and one you think secondary, it doesn't mean the main one will win. It's not that linear.
I never saw that mention of this. Any link? The dance of dragons 2.0 could mean targaryen vs targaryen, aswell as owner of dragon vs owner of dragon.
Well, Dany being main and Aegon/JonCon/Arianne secondary isn't really the only reason why Dany is more likely to win, but sure, I guess her six-book-arc could end to being crushed by the guy who just appeared on book 5. I sure wouldn't like that, but I suppose it's not impossible.
About the second DoD: GRRM's statement about it
And I personally think DoD 2.0 means a Targaryen civil war, but sure, maybe it could mean something else.
The dance of dragons led to the end of dragons and was also a dragon vs dragon fight. It could be both too.
Like these are mutually excluding. Remember what he did to his dad's mistress just for enjoying her position? And then to Tyrion's little wife just for resembling her and as a lesson to Tyrion? Whom he also treated like shit for "killing" his love as well as for being a dwarf? I mean, things like Castamere, Targ kids, RW are transparently strategic, but there is vengefulness in Tywin as well.
Really the only one I'd consider evil is Roose. Tywin's involvement was completely tactical in the interest of preserving the lives of his men and putting an end to the war. Walder Frey is just a hot headed idiot who acted impulsively for all the years the Starks/ Tully's spit on him. Roose however was on it for greed and gain. He betrayed Robb with the intention of taking the North for himself.
This.
Well remember Robb was discussing among the Northern lords whether they should side with Renly or Stannis. It wasn't until the Greatjon brought up the whole king in the north thing. Once all the Northern lords proclaimed him as such, it be kinda hard to deny it.
I can't understand people that blames Cat, and not Robb. Yes,she released Jaimie, to save her daughters. Robb married Talisa for his own fucking reasons.
But...I never said I blamed Catelyn.
Speaking of that, here's a question. Why did Robb not punish Catelyn, yet punished Karstark? Fuckin' hypocrite.
Because it's his mother, and she killed no one I guess.
But the loss was real and keeping Jaime around was a way to protect the Stark's girls; without him as an hostage they had no reason to keep them alive or whatever..
Alright, I get it.
Robb played a game he didn't know how to play. Instead of using the North, he kills his own bannerman Lord karstark, knowing it will jeopardize the recue of his sisters, sisters he doen't give a shit about since he thinks more of the pretty little Talisa than his family. Plus he agrees to marry Arya to a Frey without her consent. A nice brother. Then he broke his vows to the Freys. He just ruined it. The Freys, the Karstarks, all of them together could have got the job done. Robb is Nothing but a military commander. He does not deserve to be King, as his politics are terrible. He ruined the North, ruined the chance to rescue Sansa, so now she got raped, beaten, cut by Ramsay. All for some Talisa and his stupid principles. He had to fight for his family, for the independance of the North. Not for "justice". If he cared about justice, he would not have broken his vows. He's a damn oathbreaker, but more, he ruined everything for the North. Walder Frey is an s hole no doubt. But he won and did the smart thing. Robb did not do neither the right thing, nor the smart thing. He did the dumb thing, that judging, oathbreaker-executioner. Plus the conséquences of his actions were obvious and he was conscious of it. but he did it anyway. So now he's dead, his mother dead, Sansa raped, his talisa murdered together with his child. Good job, Robb. Deliberately ruining everything.
Roose is evil and cunning. Robb is good and stupid. Yet it's Robb's fault first, and then the Bolton's. Robb provoked this to happen. The traitors made it happen. makes perfect sense to me.
Try Westeros Total War, a Mod for Medieval II Total War.You get to play as one of the great houses of Westeros. I chose the Starks, distrusted Walder Frey without betraying him, I attacked him. Got attacked by the Greyjoys, Arryns. made an alliance with the Tyrells and they got King's landing, killed Joffrey, but also took Casterly Rock, killed tywin, Jaime and Tyrion. I attacked nobody but did counter strike aggressively, and got quite powerful. I got the north, the vale, and the iron Islands. Didn't declare myself King for diplomatic reasons. Titles are words, and words are Wind. So I did Something Robb failed to do: Win the war. Wasn't easy, nor very hard to be honest. Was ok.
You traitorous craven. You dare call yourself a Forrester?
Why craven? Just stating facts. And yes House Stark is undeserving of Forrester loyalty. He ruined everything. When you lead men it's your responsibility to minimize the losses, not maximize friendly casualties. Traitor? How can I betray a dead man anyway? HE betrayed the north for his Volantis chick as Paris betrayed Troy for Helen. Not to mention his love story got Gregor killed, me stabbed and crushed Under a damn horse, Ethan easily murdered by Ramsay. We all know Nothing of this would have happened should he have stayed true to his words. And yes I'm a Forrester, trying to save this family after all the ruin Robb caused. So I don't think I deserve a blame here. Especially after saving Asher in the docks. I am a Forrester, and no craven, unlike what you may wish to say. Your insolence has no argumentation. It's worthless spiteful BS.
I think the great thing about game of thrones is that very rarely is someone 100% responsible for an outcome. There are many intricate plotlines and causes for motivation that leads one thing to another.
We can blame Robb. He broke his oath to Walder Frey. He put love over practicality, and though technically it was wrong, it is expected from a hero figure that the audience wants to sympathize with. True love is a romanticized ideal that people usually wouldn't blame the hero for falling for. Even then, we can't blame him for the breaking of sacred guest right and treachery. He was the victim.
We can blame Cat for letting Jaime escape. It was a tactfully stupid thing to do. But then we can still sympsthize with her motives, and she couldn't have known Jaime would run into the Boltons. Also, same with Robb, we can't blame her for being a victim of treachery.
Tywin, Walder, and Roose (especially Roose) are certainly to blame, and if I did have to point a finger, it would be at them. They are the ones that planned their treachery and murder of Robb and Cat, though it could be seen as pure strategy on Tywin's end. Nothing at the Red Wedding would have happened without their participation. Still, it was Robb and Cat that gave them their motivations in the first place, no matter their intentions. It's like a game of chess and one move can't happen without the one before it.
I understand that someone could partially blame Robb for the Red Wedding. Although I don't agree, I see the point of the people that do. But to blame him for what happened to Sansa? To say he betrayed the North? That's spiteful worthless BS. Robb Stark didn't fight in the war because he wanted some iron chair. He fought to bring the cunts that executed his father to justice. He was the only sympathetic king to me. He wanted justice. You know why he executed Karstark, his own bannerman? Because Karstark was a vengeful old cunt that cared nothing for justice, only revenge and his thirst for death of child Lannisters. It shouldn't matter if you're a lord or a pig farmer, you can't get away with that kind of treasonous murder. Karstark killed Stark men that were guarding the Lannister boys, why don't you blame him for the Red Wedding? If he could stray from his vendetta and focus on the real threat there wouldn't be this feud in the first place. And please stop talking about Talisa like some bedside wench, she was a good person. She was his family as much as Arya or Sansa. But he broke his oath right? He's a cunt! Well actually no. Frey could have gotten Edmure Tully, member of the strongest house in Riverlands, the goddamned heir to Riverlands. But before that he received a bag of Tywin's gold and decided to shit on one of the most ancient traditions in Westeros. Red Wedding had nothing to do with Robb not marrying Roslin, it was a construct of Frey's greed, Bolton's jealousy and Tywin's bribes. Robb Stark deserves better than your insults, "Lord Forrester".
A brother would think of his sisters first, than his ideals later. But he is not coherent. Justice means also doing what you promised.
1. Breaking a promise is dishonourable and unfit of a king. He said that himself when he apologized to Frey and his daughters.
2. Doing very bad politics is also unfit of a king. The opportunity to reinforce his army was there and he screwed it up. Or didn't he? How many of his men will have to pay the price for that, even in open battle when he'll be outnumbered? I remind you his men will DIE for a damn LOVE STORY!! Even without any Frey betrayal. His men's lives are, excuse me, not his own to dispose of them like that. His bannermen are not his slaves he can just throw to a meatgrinder without acceptable reason. And the excuse "I love her" is not an acceptable excuse to sacrifice your men. I'd refuse to die for the romance of a king that apparently values it more than his own men. THAT is injustice. Would you really die for someone that sacrifices you to be happy himself? That's selfish, not noble, and once again, unfit for a king, because it's neither politically smart, nor morally correct.
3. Executing Karstark is just lending a hand to Tywin. Although you could say he deserves to die, perhaps he could get that punishment from the lannisters themselves. Or, provided he survived the war, provided the war ended in a Stark victory, Robb executes him AFTER the victory, not DURING the war. It's an incredible political mistake and it helped his downfall. Also, it's quite questionable if the capital punishment is justice. It's clearly not justice to me, especially when you're blinded by revenge. Karstark was wrong, yes, but even if he deserved to die, he'd better die killing a lannister man on the field. Killing him doesn't bring the poor boys back.
4. It's clear that Walder Frey is a traitor. But he betrayed a man that betrayed his trust. True Robb did not betray him by killing him at a wedding, and the red wedding is infamous for Frey. Yet, it's Robb that brought this on himself. But more importantly, on his family and the North. He provoked an asshole to kill his family. So it's his fault too. His job was preventing that to happen to all of them. it's his responsibility as family leader, as king. And he obviously messed up.
5. Power means responsibility. When you use power for your own interests with Talisa, you abuse of it. And that's all but responsible given the difficult war circumstances. I expect a king to be smart and cunning, not impulsive and irresponsible.
6. Wisdom shows that you can't get justice all the way. You may get your justice for Karstark but this way you doom your sister's right to be free and not raped by some bolton bastard. Did Sansa get treated with justice? You can't do justice to all unless you're the mightiest of Westeros. Letting that happen to his sisters he was supposed to protect as older brother, by deliberately weakening your forces, THAT is injustice to them. And also injustice to loyal houses that support the Starks for centuries. They deserve better care from their leader.
7. I judge with my mind and not by short-sighted, by the way biased views of justice. I see a failure for the North and I know it could be prevented by Robb. But he didn't. You can blame your enemies for your downfall but that's ridiculous, for there's always some asshole that wants to take your lands and women. You're blameless only if you did your very best to prevent a defeat and achieve victory. If you've made the enemy's work easier knowing it, yet still doing it, and failed, and sacrificed the north, your family, your bannermen that would damn DIE for you, for a formal marriage with Talisa and some biased view of justice, you are unworthy of the position of king, for your ruin your kingdom. Well, unless that's what a king is supposed to do, in which case I'd agree.
8. Consequently, it would seem my criticism of Robb's politics, actions and views is rather objective for it's based of cold hard facts. I'm not insulting him calling him a craven. But he did betray the north for his lover. And that wasn't his moral right. Not as king. He abandoned the idea of rescuing his sisters, the independance of the north for his own whims. That is a betrayal of the north. For he traded it for love. Self restraint, startegic, political reasoning, diplomacy, are supposed to help. He failed at that. And he let it happen. He was conscious of his actions, but he did it anyway. So, he did not do his job properly, for all the reasons stated above. It's incompetence when you don't know what you're doing. When you do and you still ruin it for yourself, it's betrayal of the north. Betrayal doesnt mean backstabbing. Backstabbing means betrayal. but if you abandon your family, you do betray them. And he abandoned the north, his siters, for his lover. That is passive betrayal. He was no backstabber, but he was a traitor to the north. I don't want to repeat myslef, I already explained why and how he did betray his sisters, and the North. Passive betrayal.
9.
Too long to read. I stand by Robb's side no matter what you just wrote so let's drop this argument. It's clear you put a lot of effort in writing it so I apologize for not delving in on it deeper. Frankly it's too long for me. I am going to answer some of your points though: Executing Karstark after winning the war would be seen by Karsatrks as an even bigger betrayal because Robb would use their men and their loyalty only to betray them after serving their purpose. THAT is injustice. And he didn't sacrifice his men for Talissa, how could anyone predict what would happen? The men that were slaughtered by Boltons/Freys were completely loyal to Robb, most of them would be willing to die for him. You put too much blame on Robb's shoulders, this was his first and final war, he fell in love and was blinded by it. But his intentions weren't vile, they were just.
You have Nothing to apologize for, Malcolm. Sry, aManWhoLovesTelltale. It's not your job to read comments. About karstark though, he and his men swore an oath to serve Robb. So they're supposed to honor it. Executon Kartark later would force them to honor their vows by somewhat making them miscalculate. What's wrong with manipulating oathbreakers anyway. You should only be honourable to honourable men, and Karstarks are not. Sure Robb was blinded. That's his excuse. Still, the men he could have had should he have stayed true to his vows, the men he lost by Killing Karstark, all of that was predictable. So he did sacrifice them, on the field if not during a marriage, by being outnumbered.
Robert Stark for some crucial errors. Catelyn Stark for some more. And that is it, I will not be blaming here Tywin, Roose or Walder since Rob gave Walder a good excuse, Roose took an oportunity and Tywin was their enemy from the start, can not blame the enemy, it is his function to fuck with you. Is valid to say that there were more people involved, we all know that in GOT what happens on every corner influenciates what is going on. Also, no one is truly accountable of nothing, people do what they believe is the best thing to do. Or the right thing.
I blame f u c k i n g Robb Stark and his stupidity.
He killed one of his greatest allies, left the North unprotected and vulnerable for the iron born to attack it.
He should have known that he was aroused by men of ambition(Roose Bolton,Walder Frey) and I blame his honor for marrying the wrong girl(Jeyne/Talisa) and have lost the war for it.
"It doesn't matter how the Stark boy fought only how he f u c k e d"
If Robb had declared for Stannis or Renly Married the Frey girl and not sent Theon to the iron islands and got the Vale on his side
Robb could have had Tywins head and won the war
Hahaha, a girl must agree.