Which is why backward compatability is an issue for the original PS3. The only way the fabled slimline can get over this is to employ the same amount of RAM used in the (single-cored?) PS2.
No idea about the backwards compatibility, so I'm not going to talk about it. But the original PS2 actually had a setup that wasn't too different from the PS3. Single core CPU + GPU + Vector units (essentially mathematical coprocessors) on the PS2 vs. Single core CPU + GPU + SPUs (essentially mathematical coprocessors).
Yes they do. Each SPU only has a tiny cache (128kb I believe), so you have to store and reassemble the results before passing them on.
Simple... FORGET CACHE... cache is a buffer... if a processor can calculate things without having to dumb overflow somewhere, you don't need cache.
the first PC's didn't have Cache, when they needed faster PC's they incorparated Cache in the machines...
all companies that program software that intentionally use cache are simply bad programmers.
Cache needs to be again what it was always intended for, overflow, nothing more... and especially not a tool to fool a processor.
As soon as programmers figure this out, the will find new ways to use the power of the cell.
instead of dumping overflow and calculations in RAM and Cache, the CELL can actually dump it into another SPU and tell it what needs to be done... the result will then be used as it is supposed instead of put aside again.
A programmer needs to program this, istead of programming it automaticly to use cache.
Newer PC CPU's work kinda the same way, but an entire generation of programmers brought up the wrong way (LET's USE THE RAM AND CACHE... THAT's EASY) needs to relearn how to do this.
anyway, that is basicly what I understood from several salespitches, and I'm sorry if I hurt any programmer's feelings.:D
I'm playing TMI on linux and linux uses OpenGL (or it is more like the application "Wine" redirects Direct3D to OpenGL, or something like that), so that shouldn't be the problem.
Wine is a wrapper around Windows programs that didn't come to be just like that. The People of Wine (and Cedega and Crossover) have been building it for quite a while now.
The project is mostly possible because the hardware of a pc is basically the same, regardless of you running Windows, Linux or OSX(Intel) on it.
Such easy wrappers for use on consoles do not exist.
You can't just wrap a A Windows/Wii/whatever game and play it on the PS3.
This is in part because console makers don't want you do do that and in part because consoles have very different hardware.
Projects like ScummVM and Dosbox get around this in their own way, but they are unable to play modern (and 3D) games.
To release the games on the PS3, Telltale will need to compile the game with Sony's tools. There could be any number of (hard to solve) technical issues with that. D3D could be one of them and Wine won't help there.
I'll say it again for the people new to this thread. D3D and OGL are relatively similar for the basic stuff. Sure you need to adjust your wrappers, but it's not exactly a BIG issue. And for TTG specifically it's a none-issue since they already ported to the OGL-like Wii environment.
actually no... I have opened my PS3 when it broke and it doens't have ANY PS2 hardware in it... yet it still is Backwards compatible.
have you looked on the motherboard?... because there is the graphic chip of the ps2 the GS... right next to the cell i'm pretty sure as i opened my ps3, too
Simple... FORGET CACHE... cache is a buffer... if a processor can calculate things without having to dumb overflow somewhere, you don't need cache.
the first PC's didn't have Cache, when they needed faster PC's they incorparated Cache in the machines...
all companies that program software that intentionally use cache are simply bad programmers.
Cache needs to be again what it was always intended for, overflow, nothing more... and especially not a tool to fool a processor.
As soon as programmers figure this out, the will find new ways to use the power of the cell.
instead of dumping overflow and calculations in RAM and Cache, the CELL can actually dump it into another SPU and tell it what needs to be done... the result will then be used as it is supposed instead of put aside again.
A programmer needs to program this, istead of programming it automaticly to use cache.
Newer PC CPU's work kinda the same way, but an entire generation of programmers brought up the wrong way (LET's USE THE RAM AND CACHE... THAT's EASY) needs to relearn how to do this.
anyway, that is basicly what I understood from several salespitches, and I'm sorry if I hurt any programmer's feelings.:D
It seems to me you're telling programmers to stop using C, C++, C#, Java, Basic and all such storage-based languages and revert to using machine-specific Assembly (which ofc will, if programmed correctly, produce the most compact code) and mathematical languages like Haskell.
I hope ToMI will be made available for PS3 or I'll be left without any Telltale Games. I only have a PS3 and Wii. I use Linux and although games usually work through WINE, I have currently only have a netbook, so it's not fast enough.
With the PS3 now only $299 in the US and $499 in Australia I hope this title gets ported over to the PSN as all of a sudden theres a much larger market for PSN games. I would buy this title on my PC (via steam) but I would much rather play a game like this on a console than a PC. I save my PC for stuff like COD4, TF2.
have you looked on the motherboard?... because there is the graphic chip of the ps2 the GS... right next to the cell i'm pretty sure as i opened my ps3, too
Next to the CELL there is the RSX chip... the graphics adapter for the PS3... no other chip that can be identified as PS2 chip....
I have actually seen PS2 games run on "bc-less" model running on a debug firmware without any issues other than the issues allready there in the other software bc-capable models.
the original PS3's actually did have full hardware support... my version runs on 100% software BC.
It seems to me you're telling programmers to stop using C, C++, C#, Java, Basic and all such storage-based languages and revert to using machine-specific Assembly (which ofc will, if programmed correctly, produce the most compact code) and mathematical languages like Haskell.
basicly, yes.... the CELL is a newer type of processor, and basic programming just won't
this can be seen on the most basic level.... a PS3 dedicated game runs AWESOME... a port runs crap.
once programmers just can figure out the architecture of the system and learn to work with the dev-units, things will be a lot better....
you can see this allready happening on the later pieces of software.
basicly, yes.... the CELL is a newer type of processor, and basic programming just won't
this can be seen on the most basic level.... a PS3 dedicated game runs AWESOME... a port runs crap.
once programmers just can figure out the architecture of the system and learn to work with the dev-units, things will be a lot better....
you can see this allready happening on the later pieces of software.
I can see this being a problem. While enthusiasts, researchers and other assorted geeks will enjoy the challenge, I doubt developers will be too happy. It will mean instead of doing a port, the games will have to be rebuilt from the ground up. This means more time spent on what would otherwise have been a simple port. And time is money, in business. Would the customer ever allow them to charge extra for a PS3 version of their product? No. So I think developers will be hesitant to make good games for the PS3 in the future.
The PC, Xbox 360 & Wii all have more in common than what sets them apart, they all offer a similar development environment that matches the PC due to the hardware.
The PS3 does not this is down to the Cell CPU, it is quite a capable piece of hardware but it does not operate in the established fashion most developers are accustomed to.
Now this is were the cost comes in as Telltale will have a tool chain that is essentially their production factory line and all the tools (or at least the important ones) they use would have to be re-written to work on the PS3 - that costs money in terms of time, resources, developers etc.
Then factor in the cost of the PS3 development kits and maintaining a separate tool chain for the PS3 (including a developer who just works on the PS3 alone) against potential sales on the PSN.
I would guess Telltale have done the numbers and found that its not in there interest at this time to port their tools to the PS3 but that doesn't mean things wont change & it could happen eventually. Personally I'd love to see Telltale games on the PS3 I prefer the system over my Xbox 360 & also think they would be be a better fit on PSN over the crowded XBLA arcade.
On a side note the claims about emulation of the PS2 and the PS3 that its fully software in nonsense the first generation PS3 has a full PS2 on-board, then Sony pulled the PS2 EE (CPU) but left in the PS2 GS (GPU) in later PS3 units and had the Cell emulate the PS2 CPU which gave it partial compatibility.
Emulating the PS2 in software on the PS3 is impossible because the PS2 GPU's is not what we now call a GPU (it has its roots in custom designs outside western GPU development) the PS3 RSX is a slightly modded Geforce 7 PC GPU and your basically comparing apples & oranges not to mention the fact the performance differences the PS2 GS can do things easily the PS3 RSX cannot do & vice versa, its not a simple one is faster than the other.
In order to make PS2 games work without any PS2 hardware on the PS3 you have to re-write the game at least portions of it and this is exactly what sony is doing with the God of War special edition remakes for the PS3.
Comments
Why do you need to store done calculations?
No idea about the backwards compatibility, so I'm not going to talk about it. But the original PS2 actually had a setup that wasn't too different from the PS3. Single core CPU + GPU + Vector units (essentially mathematical coprocessors) on the PS2 vs. Single core CPU + GPU + SPUs (essentially mathematical coprocessors).
Yes they do. Each SPU only has a tiny cache (128kb I believe), so you have to store and reassemble the results before passing them on.
Simple... FORGET CACHE... cache is a buffer... if a processor can calculate things without having to dumb overflow somewhere, you don't need cache.
the first PC's didn't have Cache, when they needed faster PC's they incorparated Cache in the machines...
all companies that program software that intentionally use cache are simply bad programmers.
Cache needs to be again what it was always intended for, overflow, nothing more... and especially not a tool to fool a processor.
As soon as programmers figure this out, the will find new ways to use the power of the cell.
instead of dumping overflow and calculations in RAM and Cache, the CELL can actually dump it into another SPU and tell it what needs to be done... the result will then be used as it is supposed instead of put aside again.
A programmer needs to program this, istead of programming it automaticly to use cache.
Newer PC CPU's work kinda the same way, but an entire generation of programmers brought up the wrong way (LET's USE THE RAM AND CACHE... THAT's EASY) needs to relearn how to do this.
anyway, that is basicly what I understood from several salespitches, and I'm sorry if I hurt any programmer's feelings.:D
Wine is a wrapper around Windows programs that didn't come to be just like that. The People of Wine (and Cedega and Crossover) have been building it for quite a while now.
The project is mostly possible because the hardware of a pc is basically the same, regardless of you running Windows, Linux or OSX(Intel) on it.
Such easy wrappers for use on consoles do not exist.
You can't just wrap a A Windows/Wii/whatever game and play it on the PS3.
This is in part because console makers don't want you do do that and in part because consoles have very different hardware.
Projects like ScummVM and Dosbox get around this in their own way, but they are unable to play modern (and 3D) games.
To release the games on the PS3, Telltale will need to compile the game with Sony's tools. There could be any number of (hard to solve) technical issues with that. D3D could be one of them and Wine won't help there.
have you looked on the motherboard?... because there is the graphic chip of the ps2 the GS... right next to the cell i'm pretty sure as i opened my ps3, too
It seems to me you're telling programmers to stop using C, C++, C#, Java, Basic and all such storage-based languages and revert to using machine-specific Assembly (which ofc will, if programmed correctly, produce the most compact code) and mathematical languages like Haskell.
I have actually seen PS2 games run on "bc-less" model running on a debug firmware without any issues other than the issues allready there in the other software bc-capable models.
the original PS3's actually did have full hardware support... my version runs on 100% software BC.
basicly, yes.... the CELL is a newer type of processor, and basic programming just won't
this can be seen on the most basic level.... a PS3 dedicated game runs AWESOME... a port runs crap.
once programmers just can figure out the architecture of the system and learn to work with the dev-units, things will be a lot better....
you can see this allready happening on the later pieces of software.
touché, and so right.
I still believe they eventually will bring it back again when they find a way to market it right...
just like the marketing campaign..
first marketing: IT DOES EVERYTHING!!!!
second: IT's A GAME MACHINE
latest marketing: IT DOES EVERYTHING!!!!
but we're getting (I mean me) off topic.
I can see this being a problem. While enthusiasts, researchers and other assorted geeks will enjoy the challenge, I doubt developers will be too happy. It will mean instead of doing a port, the games will have to be rebuilt from the ground up. This means more time spent on what would otherwise have been a simple port. And time is money, in business. Would the customer ever allow them to charge extra for a PS3 version of their product? No. So I think developers will be hesitant to make good games for the PS3 in the future.
The PC, Xbox 360 & Wii all have more in common than what sets them apart, they all offer a similar development environment that matches the PC due to the hardware.
The PS3 does not this is down to the Cell CPU, it is quite a capable piece of hardware but it does not operate in the established fashion most developers are accustomed to.
Now this is were the cost comes in as Telltale will have a tool chain that is essentially their production factory line and all the tools (or at least the important ones) they use would have to be re-written to work on the PS3 - that costs money in terms of time, resources, developers etc.
Then factor in the cost of the PS3 development kits and maintaining a separate tool chain for the PS3 (including a developer who just works on the PS3 alone) against potential sales on the PSN.
I would guess Telltale have done the numbers and found that its not in there interest at this time to port their tools to the PS3 but that doesn't mean things wont change & it could happen eventually. Personally I'd love to see Telltale games on the PS3 I prefer the system over my Xbox 360 & also think they would be be a better fit on PSN over the crowded XBLA arcade.
On a side note the claims about emulation of the PS2 and the PS3 that its fully software in nonsense the first generation PS3 has a full PS2 on-board, then Sony pulled the PS2 EE (CPU) but left in the PS2 GS (GPU) in later PS3 units and had the Cell emulate the PS2 CPU which gave it partial compatibility.
Emulating the PS2 in software on the PS3 is impossible because the PS2 GPU's is not what we now call a GPU (it has its roots in custom designs outside western GPU development) the PS3 RSX is a slightly modded Geforce 7 PC GPU and your basically comparing apples & oranges not to mention the fact the performance differences the PS2 GS can do things easily the PS3 RSX cannot do & vice versa, its not a simple one is faster than the other.
In order to make PS2 games work without any PS2 hardware on the PS3 you have to re-write the game at least portions of it and this is exactly what sony is doing with the God of War special edition remakes for the PS3.