SAME!! God I love clem so much. I played her as a pretty big asshole in season 2 except she was pretty nice to the cabin survivors so season 3 clem fits my canon perfectly.
I will never get tired of posting how much I adore Clementine's character.
She's exactly how I tried to shape her up to be - a survivor through and through - and I couldn't be happier.
...still wanna play as her, tho.
Mariana gave me a Clementine feeling (obviously she can't replace Clem nearly enough but ye) all over again, Mariana was smart too, I just can just simply imagine them becoming friends and Clem teaching her how to survive after Javier failed to teach them apparently. It's still better than Clem and Gabe becoming friends.
Okay, I'm sorry, but this is a legitimate issue for me: people seem to forget that Clementine herself wasn't always this hypercompetent badass she's so commonly trended as and that she had to learn those things through instruction, trial and error, support from her peers, and experience. Sarah barely got any of that and never really got a chance to participate in (for lack of a better term) survivor exercises and show what she could potentially do outside of a few minor moments here and there. Granted, you can definitely say the same about Mariana, but the point is that its easy to say what you think someone is or isn't capable of when you don't get the chance to see it.
The thing is that Clementine in seasons 1 & 2 while younger, still showed intelligence and pragmatic thinking here and there, Clem simply is just great at learning (intelligent), kind, pragmatic when needed, etc. It's very apparent that Sarah couldn't handle basic social skills and lacked restraint from her age (talking while Carver is talking to everyone, thinking her father is in the wrong for hitting her, not doing her work which makes it worse, etc.)
And even then, I can't help but think that Sarah's categorizing as a "liability" was over-exaggerating(or flanderizing, if you will) a few context sensitive incidents where she often had tangential relevance or effect on events purely because we didn't get much time with her where she was active, some people didn't like her and thus accentuate the negatives, and especially when Jane came in at a convenient time to label her as such.
But, she was a liability, she put the group at a disadvantage pretty much all the time. Sarah never did anything helpful and Clementine had to babysit her to keep her functioning at times, to say she wasn't a liability is a lie. We had a few episodes with Sarah and she still didn't prove that she could be a useful addition to the group, Clem didn't learn anything from her, Clem tried helping her, but in the end it doesn't work as she's too ignorant to the world they live in (Mariana could have learned how to survive I'm sure) and she will "cease to function" (Carlos quote :^) )
I think that Clem's and Mari's personality's would've worked better,
but I could imagine them being friends more realistically than Sara… moreh.
...Explain.
and that Sarah being a huge liability + constantly making things worse wouldn't be a great combination. Sarah is not a survivor, she needs maintenance all the time to function in the apocalypse and she isn't much help, Clementine is the opposite. Mariana is quite a good survivor, not as great as Clem,
Okay, I'm sorry, but this is a legitimate issue for me: people seem to forget that Clementine herself wasn't always this hypercompetent badass she's so commonly trended as and that she had to learn those things through instruction, trial and error, support from her peers, and experience. Sarah barely got any of that and never really got a chance to participate in (for lack of a better term) survivor exercises and show what she could potentially do outside of a few minor… [view original content]
Mariana gave me a Clementine feeling (obviously she can't replace Clem nearly enough but ye) all over again, Mariana was smart too, I just can just simply imagine them becoming friends and Clem teaching her how to survive after Javier failed to teach them apparently.
So, because she reminds you of Clementine(from Season 1, I assume), that somehow makes her a better friend than Sarah.... Also, Javier and Kate did seem to teach them some things, as Mariana was apparently taught to hide ahead of time and Gabe shows some ability to deal with walkers and use a gun responsibly.
The thing is that Clementine in seasons 1 & 2 while younger, still showed intelligence and pragmatic thinking here and there, Clem simply is just great at learning (intelligent), kind, pragmatic when needed, etc.
Well, it is true that some people are naturally better at certain things than others. However, while pragmatic isn't a word I'd use to describe Sarah for a few reasons, there are hints/moments that she's smarter or more intuitive than people give her credit for.
It's very apparent that Sarah couldn't handle basic social skills and lacked restraint from her age (talking while Carver is talking to everyone, thinking her father is in the wrong for hitting her, not doing her work which makes it worse, etc.)
So, your average teenager then? Though clearly the problem here is that the episode mostly has her make mistakes--Minor mistakes with overtop consequences--but mistakes nonetheless.
But, she was a liability, she put the group at a disadvantage pretty much all the time. Sarah never did anything helpful and Clementine had to babysit her to keep her functioning at times, to say she wasn't a liability is a lie. We had a few episodes with Sarah and she still didn't prove that she could be a useful addition to the group, Clem didn't learn anything from her, Clem tried helping her, but in the end it doesn't work as she's too ignorant to the world they live in (Mariana could have learned how to survive I'm sure) and she will "cease to function" (Carlos quote :^) )
I never said she didn't fit the broad category, no she didn't, and yes she did.
She helped Clementine when no one else (besides determinately Alvin) would by giving her peroxide. The fact that she does this even if Clementine rejects her and after admitting that she shouldn't even be talking to her because of Carlos(with the impllication that he knew she would want to help her in part because of a habit to do things behind his back) also shows that did it because it was the right thing to do over any personal benefit. It's also possible to get her to mention that they're picky about supplies specifically because Carlos hasn't restocked yet and knows exactly how to deal with Clementine's wound after seeing it, so its possible she picked up a few medical skills on the side.
She shows enough self-awareness and intuition to realize that Carlos's patronizing of her isn't helping anything and asks Clementine to give her pointers on how to use a gun in case she may have to use one one day in response to learning/realizing something happened to Pete.
She manages to sneak around the Cabin mostly undetected when Carver shows up unexpectedly despite her anxiety issues initially causing her to hyperventilate and the fact that she's sneaking around in boots, so she has some small measure of self-control and stealth under stressful situations. And even then, Carver almost certainly knew the Cabin Group had been there by the time he heard her creaking due to the numerous dishes and Carlos's shirt, so its not like a random picture of her that could've been taken at any time was that damning.
She stands up to Carver if he slaps Clementine to the ground, so its not like she wouldn't defend anyone if she had to. You could include her charging out to Carlos's side when Carver attacked him despite the risk of being attacked/shot herself, though it also establishes that she can be reckless about it(just like Kenny and Nick), so mixed results.
She is the one who explains who Reggie is for Clementine's 411, determinately asks him about Jane if she picks up on Clementine's silent suspicion, and mentions that the Ski Lodge's wind turbine provided them with electricity, so she's observant and takes note of certain things(though this is already covered by her initial meeting with Clementine, but whatever).
Whatever he said to her, she apparently did her work like she was supposed to before and after Carver used Reggie's murder to intimidate her and got her to fall into line, as we never hear of her making a similar mistake afterwards. While her funk after Carlos is forced slaps her does further demonstrate how emotional she can be, she's at least able to do less meticulous work under duress.
Okay, this is moment of truth because this is perfect time to address this: I think people don't pick up on the fact that Carlos was supposed to be right for the wrong reasons because Sarah didn't "cease to function" because she found out what the world was like but rather because his sudden death [further] traumatized her into a having a nervous breakdown. She already knew what the world was like because she knew enough about what walkers do to people to show brief apprehension to hearing that Clementine was bitten, she is suspiciously specific about whether Carlos let anyone die and is quick to assume being told about Carver means he's gonna "hurt" someone, she can handle death and violence a bit(she barely reacts to Carver being kneecapped, for some reason) as long as it's not someone she cares about and she doesn't witness it firsthand(like Carlos, Clementine, or Kenny), and, as @firewallvolcano made an interesting point about, she may have been repressing Carver because of past experience of his methods. And considering it was confirmed that she had PTSD and she determinately states that she's "all alone now" in the trailer, its possible this past experience may have been the death/murder of her mom.
Her reaction to Carlos's death is to charge her way out of the herd, bobbin and weavin when she had to, and running through the woods in a panic before eventually making her way to the trailer park, dropping her glasses when she presumably dodged or even rammed a walker that attacked her. The fact that she was able to do this despite causing the walkers to hone in on her presence, along with the fact that she did so for quite some with Luke and Nick straggling after her, shows that she has a surprising amount of agility and speed for someone who didn't get much exercise.
When saved from the trailer park via a slap from Clementine, Sarah understands why Clementine did it, admits that she has a problem, just does what she's told from that point on, and, in an interesting little character moment that even I overlooked initially, indirectly claims that she doesn't hold Jane's reasoning and actions against her and even attempts to delude herself into thinking that Carlos didn't die despite knowing that's not true for hours. That last moment in particular is definitely a bit puzzling because she more or less says she agrees with Jane's way of dealing with things at the moment and questions how Clementine could be such a good friend by not leaving her because it. In a dark way, this further shows that she's willing to admit her flaws and do what she has to change for the better.
While somewhat lost in her thoughts in depression, she does move about a bit and keeps enough of an eye out for Rebecca that she's the one to spot the herd approaching due to Rebecca's contractions and strains herself warning Clementine about them. And as confirmed by someone in my general questions thread, she does leave on her own if Clementine doesn't call her or send Mike to get her/help Kenny. So despite being so shook up about being orphaned that she made no attempt to leave the trailer of her own volition, she made the effort to make sure everyone else got to safety and may have eventually decided to fully embrace becoming a survivor for their sake.
And finally, isn't it convenient that she (in very easy to miss dialogue) is told to just stay outta the way by Bonnie when Luke calls for as much help as possible during the defense of the observation deck, falls alongside Jane due to being too far out when the observation deck unexpectantly collapsed, somehow gets buried under some rubble despite falling on it, and Jane(the useful hyper-competent badass) failed to save her just when it seemed like she was slowly starting to recover from her trauma and thus, never got the chance to become a true survivor like she wanted?
I know she had a lot of flaws and disadvantages but to say that Sarah never would've grown past them and that she only caused problems in the reasoning of a cynic/nihilist.
...Explain.
Mariana gave me a Clementine feeling (obviously she can't replace Clem nearly enough but ye) all over again, Mariana was… more smart too, I just can just simply imagine them becoming friends and Clem teaching her how to survive after Javier failed to teach them apparently. It's still better than Clem and Gabe becoming friends.
Okay, I'm sorry, but this is a legitimate issue for me: people seem to forget that Clementine herself wasn't always this hypercompetent badass she's so commonly trended as and that she had to learn those things through instruction, trial and error, support from her peers, and experience. Sarah barely got any of that and never really got a chance to participate in (for lack of a better term) survivor exercises and show what she could potentially do outside of a few minor moments here and there. Granted, you can definitely say the same about Mariana, but the point is that its easy to say what you think… [view original content]
So, because she reminds you of Clementine(from Season 1, I assume), that somehow makes her a better friend than Sarah.... Also, Javier and Kate did seem to teach them some things, as Mariana was apparently taught to hide ahead of time and Gabe shows some ability to deal with walkers and use a gun responsibly.
I was more referring to Javier's family lacking essential adept survival skills much like Clementine developed from an early stage.
Well, it is true that some people are naturally better at certain things than others. However, while pragmatic isn't a word I'd use to describe Sarah for a few reasons, there are hints/moments that she's smarter or more intuitive than people give her credit for.
Care to list her very smart moments?
So, your average teenager then? Though clearly the problem here is that the episode mostly has her make mistakes--Minor mistakes with overtop consequences--but mistakes nonetheless.
You're serious? Given the extreme circumstances they were in, as a 10 year old you could comprehend the situation, when to talk, and when to not. She knows Carver is a horrible person and she has a vague idea of the outside apocalypse, she lacks social comprehension that most acquire at earlier ages.
She helped Clementine when no one else (besides determinately Alvin) would by giving her peroxide. The fact that she does this even if Clementine rejects her and after admitting that she shouldn't even be talking to her because of Carlos(with the impllication that he knew she would want to help her in part because of a habit to do things behind his back) also shows that did it because it was the right thing to do over any personal benefit. It's also possible to get her to mention that they're picky about supplies specifically because Carlos hasn't restocked yet and knows exactly how to deal with Clementine's wound after seeing it, so its possible she picked up a few medical skills on the side.
This is true, she did, but Alvin still can help regardless.
She shows enough self-awareness and intuition to realize that Carlos's patronizing of her isn't helping anything and asks Clementine to give her pointers on how to use a gun in case she may have to use one one day in response to learning/realizing something happened to Pete.
No, she's still extremely self-reliant on her father, there's a line between her curiousness on how a firearm works and being "intuitive".
She manages to sneak around the Cabin mostly undetected when Carver shows up unexpectedly despite her anxiety issues initially causing her to hyperventilate and the fact that she's sneaking around in boots, so she has some small measure of self-control and stealth under stressful situations. And even then, Carver almost certainly knew the Cabin Group had been there by the time he heard her creaking due to the numerous dishes and Carlos's shirt, so its not like a random picture of her that could've been taken at any time was that damning.
It's not like she did anything too hard, she walked and creaked on the steps, almost got detected a few times, and then left her picture on the ground instead of covering it up. Clementine was the only one who impressed Carver keeping her cool while looking him straight in the eye; keeping a stern and discreet mood.
She stands up to Carver if he slaps Clementine to the ground, so its not like she wouldn't defend anyone if she had to. You could include her charging out to Carlos's side when Carver attacked him despite the risk of being attacked/shot herself, though it also establishes that she can be reckless about it(just like Kenny and Nick), so mixed results.
She doesn't do enough to stop Carver, and running to her father like that just shows again she's self reliant on him, she needs control in situations, running to your parents/having to be with them at all times is something that can happen after they get out of Howe's Hardware.
She is the one who explains who Reggie is for Clementine's 411, determinately asks him about Jane if she picks up on Clementine's silent suspicion, and mentions that the Ski Lodge's wind turbine provided them with electricity, so she's observant and takes note of certain things(though this is already covered by her initial meeting with Clementine, but whatever).
So she noticed a wind turbine that was explained to the group countless times and even became a big scene in that episode, it's not observant but rather obvious. Again how is this stuff related to "liability", she's the most useless out of their entire group, helpless without her Dad, etc.
Whatever he said to her, she apparently did her work like she was supposed to before and after Carver used Reggie's murder to intimidate her and got her to fall into line, as we never hear of her making a similar mistake afterwards. While her funk after Carlos is forced slaps her does further demonstrate how emotional she can be, she's at least able to do less meticulous work under duress.
No, she got hit by Carver essentially, so she shut down even after Clem explained it wasn't Carlos' fault, and then got Reggie killed, yes I understand that Reggie had a track record, but Sarah in the end got him killed that day. Plus it's not like she had much work to do after that day, as they left soon after. Once again, Sarah is a liability, after her farther's death she shut's down really badly, screaming at a very bad time, then Luke spent hours surrounded by walkers trying to convince her, Clem has to slap her to snap her out of it kind of, again, she's a liability.
Okay, this is moment of truth because this is perfect time to address this: I think people don't pick up on the fact that Carlos was supposed to be right for the wrong reasons because Sarah didn't "cease to function" because she found out what the world was like but rather because his sudden death [further] traumatized her into a having a nervous breakdown. She already knew what the world was like because she knew enough about what walkers do to people to show brief apprehension to hearing that Clementine was bitten, she is suspiciously specific about whether Carlos let anyone die and is quick to assume being told about Carver means he's gonna "hurt" someone, she can handle death and violence a bit(she barely reacts to Carver being kneecapped, for some reason) as long as it's not someone she cares about and she doesn't witness it firsthand(like Carlos, Clementine, or Kenny), and, as @firewallvolcano made an interesting point about, she may have been repressing Carver because of past experience of his methods. And considering it was confirmed that she had PTSD and she determinately states that she's "all alone now" in the trailer, its possible this past experience may have been the death/murder of her mom.
No matter how you put it, Sarah is very ignorant to the world surrounding her, before Carlos dies you have to try to calm her down as she's going to break out at any time from being scared. Yes, Rebecca was scared too, but they all knew they can't yell out for anything and are generally used to the walkers' presence. Even Clem wasn't as scared in season 1 while Lee and her walked through. Once again, she's a liability more than she actually helps, them most notable thing that she does to help is assisting Clementine but that's more of a moral thing she has, her group most likely saw it as her just giving supplies to a bitten stranger, but apparently people can't differentiate a huge; long dog bite from a walker (human like) bite.
Her reaction to Carlos's death is to charge her way out of the herd, bobbin and weavin when she had to, and running through the woods in a panic before eventually making her way to the trailer park, dropping her glasses when she presumably dodged or even rammed a walker that attacked her. The fact that she was able to do this despite causing the walkers to hone in on her presence, along with the fact that she did so for quite some with Luke and Nick straggling after her, shows that she has a surprising amount of agility and speed for someone who didn't get much exercise.
Well, this scene is very unrealistic, she most likely should've been grabbed and chomped down, but great writing I guess.
When saved from the trailer park via a slap from Clementine, Sarah understands why Clementine did it, admits that she has a problem, just does what she's told from that point on, and, in an interesting little character moment that even I overlooked initially, indirectly claims that she doesn't hold Jane's reasoning and actions against her and even attempts to delude herself into thinking that Carlos didn't die despite knowing that's not true for hours. That last moment in particular is definitely a bit puzzling because she more or less says she agrees with Jane's way of dealing with things at the moment and questions how Clementine could be such a good friend by not leaving her because it. In a dark way, this further shows that she's willing to admit her flaws and do what she has to change for the better.
But again, between the transition of wanting to be more helpful, she doesn't prevail with it, she admits to being a liability essentially and doesn't excuse her complete breakdown of mental entrapment for hours instead of looking for survival as her father would have wanted.
While somewhat lost in her thoughts in depression, she does move about a bit and keeps enough of an eye out for Rebecca that she's the one to spot the herd approaching due to Rebecca's contractions and strains herself warning Clementine about them. And as confirmed by someone in my general questions thread, she does leave on her own if Clementine doesn't call her or send Mike to get her/help Kenny. So despite being so shook up about being orphaned that she made no attempt to leave the trailer of her own volition, she made the effort to make sure everyone else got to safety and may have eventually decided to fully embrace becoming a survivor for their sake.
Again, she hasn't shown much, not to mention her entire role from her determinant death doesn't even help them at all, while I would've liked her to become an adept survivor, she died beforehand if it was in her to become strong.
And finally, isn't it convenient that she (in very easy to miss dialogue) is told to just stay outta the way by Bonnie when Luke calls for as much help as possible during the defense of the observation deck, falls alongside Jane due to being too far out when the observation deck unexpectantly collapsed, somehow gets buried under some rubble despite falling on it, and Jane(the useful hyper-competent badass) failed to save her just when it seemed like she was slowly starting to recover from her trauma and thus, never got the chance to become a true survivor like she wanted?
Well, you're talking about collapsing a deck and then smack it down, she should've been way out the way, it's not unexpected, I do agree Jane was being a useless; selfish shit like normal, no disagreement there. Most people probably didn't trust her anyways to be a help as proven before she hasn't been in the past, she would have to prove herself at a well, less stressful time.
I know she had a lot of flaws and disadvantages but to say that Sarah never would've grown past them and that she only caused problems in the reasoning of a cynic/nihilist.
Really? Am I really a cynic for saving Sarah? I didn't help her do her work at Howe's Hardware but other than I stuck with her hoping she'd make a great change for me to like her personality and help Clementine more than Clementine always helping her.
Mariana gave me a Clementine feeling (obviously she can't replace Clem nearly enough but ye) all over again, Mariana was smart too, I just c… morean just simply imagine them becoming friends and Clem teaching her how to survive after Javier failed to teach them apparently.
So, because she reminds you of Clementine(from Season 1, I assume), that somehow makes her a better friend than Sarah.... Also, Javier and Kate did seem to teach them some things, as Mariana was apparently taught to hide ahead of time and Gabe shows some ability to deal with walkers and use a gun responsibly.
The thing is that Clementine in seasons 1 & 2 while younger, still showed intelligence and pragmatic thinking here and there, Clem simply is just great at learning (intelligent), kind, pragmatic when needed, etc.
Well, it is true that some people are naturally better at certain things than others. However, while pragmatic isn't a word I'd use to des… [view original content]
Pretty sure I did most of that in the bullet points.
You're serious? Given the extreme circumstances they were in, as a 10 year old you could comprehend the situation, when to talk, and when to not. She knows Carver is a horrible person and she has a vague idea of the outside apocalypse, she lacks social comprehension that most acquire at earlier ages.
My bad! I wrote so much in the list that I must’ve over looked that part. Though to be honest, Sarah being a bit of dope at times in social situations is pretty clear in her introduction. Not to excuse her here,, but Carver’s morning report was a bit boring and I also think there either may have been a plot point cut involving her or its simply an observation of a potential plot point on my part.
And it’s not like she’s like that all the time, as she seems to pick up on certain vibes at times, like seeing through Clementine’s determinant lie or silence about Pete’s death.
No, she's still extremely self-reliant on her father, there's a line between her curiousness on how a firearm works and being "intuitive".
What, are you expecting her to completely grow out of the way she was raised within a few weeks? Admittedly, I may have used the wrong word there; the point was that she’s able to recognize “The world is dangerous nowadays and knowing how to use a gun might come in handy if I have to defend someone, even if Dad wouldn’t allow me to learn.” In fact, that’s pretty much what she says if you wait long enough; it’s also the scene where I really started to like her.
It's not like she did anything too hard, she walked and creaked on the steps, almost got detected a few times, and then left her picture on the ground instead of covering it up.
Hence why I noted she did so in boots, granted. Really though, she did only got noticed because of the steps creaking (which they also did for the much more careful and presumably lighter Clementine) and Carver seeing the door silently(?) close at the last second. Honestly, my biggest issue with that is wondering a. why did she hide under the bed(“The people I’m looking for are very smart and very careful.”), b. why didn’t Carver think to look under the bed(“He’s a very smart man.”), and c. as you pointed out, why didn’t she grab the photo if it was close enough to the bed that she shifted back some more so Carver wouldn’t see her?
Clementine was the only one who impressed Carver keeping her cool while looking him straight in the eye; keeping a stern and discreet mood.
…What? What does impressing a Darwinist Egotist have to do with whether Sarah could become a better survivor or not?
She doesn't do enough to stop Carver, and running to her father like that just shows again she's self reliant on him, she needs control in situations, running to your parents/having to be with them at all times is something that can happen after they get out of Howe's Hardware.
She was kinda busy finishing being tied up by Troy when Carver put on his smug smirk, so I don’t know what she could’ve done at that point beyond either getting on his case verbally(which she did)or throw herself at Carver to be smacked down or even shot immediately afterwards. Also, I made the comparison to Kenny and Nick to show that I’m aware of the risk involved with such behavior. She could learn and in fact, I suspect Carver was intentionally forcing her to learn for whatever he had planned for her.
Again how is this stuff related to "liability", she's the most useless out of their entire group, helpless without her Dad, etc.
I’m noting that she’s not as completely dumb, fearful, helpless, or passive as some people seem to think she is. Yes, she has flaws and shortcomings that get her into trouble a few times but that could be said of every character—including Carver and Jane, the two who are the most critical of such a thing.
No, she got hit by Carver essentially, so she shut down even after Clem explained it wasn't Carlos' fault, and then got Reggie killed, yes I understand that Reggie had a track record, but Sarah in the end got him killed that day. Plus it's not like she had much work to do after that day, as they left soon after.
I know that dude, hence why I included it. They were there at least one more day and Clementine was gone long enough that Sarah may have been given another task or two to do after Carver got through feeding her his rhetoric.
No matter how you put it, Sarah is very ignorant to the world surrounding her, before Carlos dies you have to try to calm her down as she's going to break out at any time from being scared. Yes, Rebecca was scared too, but they all knew they can't yell out for anything and are generally used to the walkers' presence. Even Clem wasn't as scared in season 1 while Lee and her walked through. Once again, she's a liability more than she actually helps, them most notable thing that she does to help is assisting Clementine but that's more of a moral thing she has, her group most likely saw it as her just giving supplies to a bitten stranger, but apparently people can't differentiate a huge; long dog bite from a walker (human like) bite.
But she didn’t start outright yelling until Carlos was suddenly hit by a stray bullet and chomped by walkers right in front of her; before that, all she did was whimper a bit due to being put in a situation she’s not prepared for while still creeping her way through (unlike Rebecca, who flat out froze despite Clementine being at her side) and it’s very possible that Clementine would’ve been able to calm her down if they didn’t encounter that snafu. Remember that Clementine had been attacked by numerous walkers by that point and witnessed/executed several deaths up till that point over the course of months; Sarah barely had any action in the two or three weeks Season 2 takes place. The lesson behind her involvement in the plot is that a good group is one that makes sure all of its members are capable of handling themselves and Carlos keeping her sheltered was a major detriment to this notion.
Also, not to get too personal by extension here, but I love how picky and hypocritical people can be about certain things. Sarah helped Clementine despite there being little to no personal gain for doing so(as Clementine can reject her friendship and not helping her would be easier than having to face Carlos for doing so) and may have prevent her from being infected from anything before the group came to let her out, thus ensuring that Clementine would be healthy enough to help the group throughout the Season, so if anything she(and determinately Alvin) did them a favor by having a heart to do so because she thought it was the right thing to do. Lee, Clementine, Kenny etc. does/did that type of shit all the time and isn’t that why people love them?
Well, this scene is very unrealistic, she most likely should've been grabbed and chomped down, but great writing I guess.
Yeah, well it’s what we have to go with. Especially since even with the greatest writing, she still would’ve made it through to have the big scene with Clementine (and Jane) that In Harm’s Way was setting up.
But again, between the transition of wanting to be more helpful, she doesn't prevail with it, she admits to being a liability essentially and doesn't excuse her complete breakdown of mental entrapment for hours instead of looking for survival as her father would have wanted.
The point is she recognizes the problem and was trying to deal with it the way Jane did—by deluding herself into thinking whatever will make herself feel better. If you go back to the walk back from the trailer park scene, asking about whether Jaime turned or not will have Jane reveal that she’s not sure what actually happened because she just left and didn’t have the nerve to go back later to see for herself, so she eventually told herself that it was for the best and that Jaime wanted her to do that all along.
Jane chose to deal with her one bad day by writing off her sister as a lost cause as an explanation for why Jaime seemed so lethargic despite Jane’s constant encouragement of her and became a coldly pragmatic and bitter survivalist because of that. In a way, Sarah (who was close enough to the other three to have potentially heard most of what they were talking about) seemed to be taking this as advice for how to become stronger herself and tried to do the same thing by pretending the source of her trauma (Carlos’s death) never happened so she can ignore it and move on.
Now, I’m not saying that was completely what that conversation was trying to get across but it’s an interesting development given her intentions and attitude in her first three scenes.
Again, she hasn't shown much, not to mention her entire role from her determinant death doesn't even help them at all, while I would've liked her to become an adept survivor, she died beforehand if it was in her to become strong.
Well, you're talking about collapsing a deck and then smack it down, she should've been way out the way, it's not unexpected, I do agree Jane was being a useless; selfish shit like normal, no disagreement there. Most people probably didn't trust her anyways to be a help as proven before she hasn't been in the past, she would have to prove herself at a well, less stressful time.
Yeah, I know and that’s one of the fifty reasons why that climax sucks and is the worst moment of the Season, if not the Series, from a writing standpoint as far as I’m concerned. They establish her with this clear background, hint towards a desire to improve herself past her limitations, show the consequences her treatment has on her conduct, sets up her breakdown by putting her through a conga line of trauma, and put her in a place where she can only develop from her lowest point if the player so chooses, only to have killed off in excessively contrived manner without giving her a chance to actually do anything major for or against this arc.
Not to mention the fact that it puts a huge black mark on Jane’s already negative resume that makes her involvement in the finale all the more infuriating and sloppy because of it and other things. When I first played the game, saving Sarah was of course my priority but releasing that Jane had to be the one to do it actually made me want it even more because it would essentially be the first step to “redeeming” both of their characters by having them deal with that which troubled them so at the time. So her failing to save Sarah twice(I was so endeared by her that I legitimately flipped out and restarted just to make sure I didn’t do something wrong) made the moment all the more painful for me personally.
Really? Am I really a cynic for saving Sarah? I didn't help her do her work at Howe's Hardware but other than I stuck with her hoping she'd make a great change for me to like her personality and help Clementine more than Clementine always helping her.
Sorry, got out of line there and I apologize. I just really hate the notion that, in a series with characters like Lee, Clementine, Kenny, Ben, the Cancer Surivors(who determinately beat up Kenny), Arvo(from a villainous standpoint), and fucking Jane herself, saying that someone like Sarah would never learn to survive and thus somehow deserves to die is something people genuinely believe and a lesson that the writers(perhaps ignorantly or even unintentionally) decided to get across. It’s extremely hypocritical to the very virtues Season 1 and perhaps the Game Series as a whole stands for, for FUCK’s sake!
So, because she reminds you of Clementine(from Season 1, I assume), that somehow makes her a better friend than Sarah.... Also, Javier and K… moreate did seem to teach them some things, as Mariana was apparently taught to hide ahead of time and Gabe shows some ability to deal with walkers and use a gun responsibly.
I was more referring to Javier's family lacking essential adept survival skills much like Clementine developed from an early stage.
Well, it is true that some people are naturally better at certain things than others. However, while pragmatic isn't a word I'd use to describe Sarah for a few reasons, there are hints/moments that she's smarter or more intuitive than people give her credit for.
Care to list her very smart moments?
So, your average teenager then? Though clearly the problem here is that the episode mostly has her make mistakes--Minor mistakes with overtop consequences--but mistakes nonetheless.
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So... am I gonna get banned for saying that it's stupid to get banned... well, I seriously think all the controversy is validated. Sorry for posting non topic on this thread, but this is ridiculous. Stop this crap mods...
Pretty sure I did most of that in the bullet points.
When something is that long, I just reply from top to bottom.
My bad! I wrote so much in the list that I must’ve over looked that part. Though to be honest, Sarah being a bit of dope at times in social situations is pretty clear in her introduction. Not to excuse her here,, but Carver’s morning report was a bit boring and I also think there either may have been a plot point cut involving her or its simply an observation of a potential plot point on my part.
And it’s not like she’s like that all the time, as she seems to pick up on certain vibes at times, like seeing through Clementine’s determinant lie or silence about Pete’s death.
Yeah, she can pick up clues here and there, but she isn't discreet enough as she should've learned many years ago.
What, are you expecting her to completely grow out of the way she was raised within a few weeks? Admittedly, I may have used the wrong word there; the point was that she’s able to recognize “The world is dangerous nowadays and knowing how to use a gun might come in handy if I have to defend someone, even if Dad wouldn’t allow me to learn.” In fact, that’s pretty much what she says if you wait long enough; it’s also the scene where I really started to like her.
Point being, she relies too much on her father at times, she's not resilient enough which is just supporting my argument of her being a liability. Believe me, Sarah was just getting on my nerve a bit on how she acted, but I wanted her to grow out of it eventually but we never got the chance for it to ever occur.
Hence why I noted she did so in boots, granted. Really though, she did only got noticed because of the steps creaking (which they also did for the much more careful and presumably lighter Clementine) and Carver seeing the door silently(?) close at the last second. Honestly, my biggest issue with that is wondering a. why did she hide under the bed(“The people I’m looking for are very smart and very careful.”), b. why didn’t Carver think to look under the bed(“He’s a very smart man.”), and c. as you pointed out, why didn’t she grab the photo if it was close enough to the bed that she shifted back some more so Carver wouldn’t see her?
The floors were far too creaky anyways, I'm sure she knew this as she's lived there and honestly if she were smart she'd hide other places rather than making really loud and distinct creaking sounds when someone that dangerous is actively looking for any sign of your family. She should've opened the closet and hid, go to the hatch, etc.
…What? What does impressing a Darwinist Egotist have to do with whether Sarah could become a better survivor or not?
Carver was smart, he had a reputation, and he definitely would've made most 11 year old girls slip a lot in their words, given this, his actual impression of Clem is more complimentary and valid on how stable she acted, regardless of how much of an asshat Carver was.
She was kinda busy finishing being tied up by Troy when Carver put on his smug smirk, so I don’t know what she could’ve done at that point beyond either getting on his case verbally(which she did)or throw herself at Carver to be smacked down or even shot immediately afterwards. Also, I made the comparison to Kenny and Nick to show that I’m aware of the risk involved with such behavior. She could learn and in fact, I suspect Carver was intentionally forcing her to learn for whatever he had planned for her.
Carver was right about her needing to learn, I think we both agree Sarah needed major guidance to be an adept survivor in this world, but his way of actions just shuts her off instead of inspiring her to be better.
I’m noting that she’s not as completely dumb, fearful, helpless, or passive as some people seem to think she is. Yes, she has flaws and shortcomings that get her into trouble a few times but that could be said of every character—including Carver and Jane, the two who are the most critical of such a thing.
I'm just saying she's a liability, which is pretty damn true, you even understand this given that we both agree she needed to grow more to be a great use in this world.
But she didn’t start outright yelling until Carlos was suddenly hit by a stray bullet and chomped by walkers right in front of her; before that, all she did was whimper a bit due to being put in a situation she’s not prepared for while still creeping her way through (unlike Rebecca, who flat out froze despite Clementine being at her side) and it’s very possible that Clementine would’ve been able to calm her down if they didn’t encounter that snafu.
Honestly, she seemed like she was about to burst at any second, Carlos seemed quite concerned. I'm not sure Clem would've plainly stopped this as will never have it occur. Yes Rebecca froze, but she's pregnant, confused, in pain, there's tons of walkers surrounding her, but she just didn't want to be alone and Jane helped her out; Rebecca didn't scream either.
Remember that Clementine had been attacked by numerous walkers by that point and witnessed/executed several deaths up till that point over the course of months; Sarah barely had any action in the two or three weeks Season 2 takes place. The lesson behind her involvement in the plot is that a good group is one that makes sure all of its members are capable of handling themselves and Carlos keeping her sheltered was a major detriment to this notion.
As far as I can tell, Clementine didn't start whaling in very tense situations, she was very new to the apocalypse and was younger, yet served a huge role in being helpful at the same time (e.g. gets the cane to help seal the door). Clem is intelligent and always has been, Sarah obviously just doesn't compete in this criteria, she's been shut in obviously but this again doesn't mean she isn't a liability, which has been a key point in my argument this entire time. No matter whom you are, or what your situation is, that doesn't mean they're exempt from being depicted as a liability.
Also, not to get too personal by extension here, but I love how picky and hypocritical people can be about certain things. Sarah helped Clementine despite there being little to no personal gain for doing so(as Clementine can reject her friendship and not helping her would be easier than having to face Carlos for doing so) and may have prevent her from being infected from anything before the group came to let her out, thus ensuring that Clementine would be healthy enough to help the group throughout the Season, so if anything she(and determinately Alvin) did them a favor by having a heart to do so because she thought it was the right thing to do. Lee, Clementine, Kenny etc. does/did that type of shit all the time and isn’t that why people love them?
I agree with your first point of her helping Clementine with the hydrogen peroxide, already stated that, but I don't think you can compare Lee, Clem, Kenny, "etc", to them as Sarah didn't do enough of it nor the usefulness to protect her much, you're stretching it too far.
Yeah, well it’s what we have to go with. Especially since even with the greatest writing, she still would’ve made it through to have the big scene with Clementine (and Jane) that In Harm’s Way was setting up.
If the writing wants her to be sonic, then I guess let her be sonic.
The point is she recognizes the problem and was trying to deal with it the way Jane did—by deluding herself into thinking whatever will make herself feel better. If you go back to the walk back from the trailer park scene, asking about whether Jaime turned or not will have Jane reveal that she’s not sure what actually happened because she just left and didn’t have the nerve to go back later to see for herself, so she eventually told herself that it was for the best and that Jaime wanted her to do that all along.
Jane chose to deal with her one bad day by writing off her sister as a lost cause as an explanation for why Jaime seemed so lethargic despite Jane’s constant encouragement of her and became a coldly pragmatic and bitter survivalist because of that. In a way, Sarah (who was close enough to the other three to have potentially heard most of what they were talking about) seemed to be taking this as advice for how to become stronger herself and tried to do the same thing by pretending the source of her trauma (Carlos’s death) never happened so she can ignore it and move on.
Now, I’m not saying that was completely what that conversation was trying to get across but it’s an interesting development given her intentions and attitude in her first three scenes.
Well, you built up most of this paragraph as context and observation, so don't expect a paragraph reply back but Luke tried for hours, I doubt he just said "oh yeah your father's okay" the entire time but even when Clementine gets there you can convince her almost at all and you have to risk yourself pushing furniture down to slow walkers from breaking in, etc, but slapping her for some reason instantly gets her out, it's just weird and to have that much of a breakdown proves my further case of her being a liability, barely any resilience.
Yeah, I know and that’s one of the fifty reasons why that climax sucks and is the worst moment of the Season, if not the Series, from a writing standpoint as far as I’m concerned. They establish her with this clear background, hint towards a desire to improve herself past her limitations, show the consequences her treatment has on her conduct, sets up her breakdown by putting her through a conga line of trauma, and put her in a place where she can only develop from her lowest point if the player so chooses, only to have killed off in excessively contrived manner without giving her a chance to actually do anything major for or against this arc.
Not to mention the fact that it puts a huge black mark on Jane’s already negative resume that makes her involvement in the finale all the more infuriating and sloppy because of it and other things. When I first played the game, saving Sarah was of course my priority but releasing that Jane had to be the one to do it actually made me want it even more because it would essentially be the first step to “redeeming” both of their characters by having them deal with that which troubled them so at the time. So her failing to save Sarah twice(I was so endeared by her that I legitimately flipped out and restarted just to make sure I didn’t do something wrong) made the moment all the more painful for me personally.
Yeah, but they had to make sure Sarah died at the expense of degrading Jane's personality furthermore, classic.
Sorry, got out of line there and I apologize. I just really hate the notion that, in a series with characters like Lee, Clementine, Kenny, Ben, the Cancer Surivors(who determinately beat up Kenny), Arvo(from a villainous standpoint), and fucking Jane herself, saying that someone like Sarah would never learn to survive and thus somehow deserves to die is something people genuinely believe and a lesson that the writers(perhaps ignorantly or even unintentionally) decided to get across. It’s extremely hypocritical to the very virtues Season 1 and perhaps the Game Series as a whole stands for, for FUCK’s sake!
I let Ben go by the way in season 1, not because I hated the kid, but I thought he convinced me enough that he doesn't want to live anymore, that he notable got many people killed indirectly. I honestly think Ben was a fuck-up, but I felt bad for him emotionally, and either way he dies really vile. Oh and can you tell me where I said she should die because she would never learn to survive, I looked a tiny bit, did Ctrl + F "die", never found anything regarding this, and I'm pretty tired as is so I can't be arsed to look through paragraphs all over again if it exist, plus it's your argument about my alleged hypocrisy, not mine.
Care to list her very smart moments?
Pretty sure I did most of that in the bullet points.
You're serious? Given the extreme ci… morercumstances they were in, as a 10 year old you could comprehend the situation, when to talk, and when to not. She knows Carver is a horrible person and she has a vague idea of the outside apocalypse, she lacks social comprehension that most acquire at earlier ages.
My bad! I wrote so much in the list that I must’ve over looked that part. Though to be honest, Sarah being a bit of dope at times in social situations is pretty clear in her introduction. Not to excuse her here,, but Carver’s morning report was a bit boring and I also think there either may have been a plot point cut involving her or its simply an observation of a potential plot point on my part.
And it’s not like she’s like that all the time, as she seems to pick up on certain vibes at times, like seeing through Clementine’s determina… [view original content]
Yeah, sorry I didn't reply for a bit since I legitimately lost track of this thread.
Carver was right about her needing to learn, I think we both agree Sarah needed major guidance to be an adept survivor in this world, but his way of actions just shuts her off instead of inspiring her to be better.
Pretty much. When I first played the game, I thought however he saw Sarah was one of the only hints towards a more intelligent and maybe redeeming quality of Carver's characterization, but it didn't go anywhere.
If the writing wants her to be sonic, then I guess let her be sonic.
Oh and can you tell me where I said she should die because she would never learn to survive, I looked a tiny bit, did Ctrl + F "die", never found anything regarding this, and I'm pretty tired as is so I can't be arsed to look through paragraphs all over again if it exist, plus it's your argument about my alleged hypocrisy, not mine.
I wasn't callling you a hypocrite but the writing itself. I just really hate Carver and Jane for numerous reasons in general, but that Darwinistic mindset is a major reason, especially in Jane's case. I'm just so used to people seemingly supporting that mindset that just hearing that term irks me a bit, y'know?
Pretty sure I did most of that in the bullet points.
When something is that long, I just reply from top to bottom.
My bad! I w… morerote so much in the list that I must’ve over looked that part. Though to be honest, Sarah being a bit of dope at times in social situations is pretty clear in her introduction. Not to excuse her here,, but Carver’s morning report was a bit boring and I also think there either may have been a plot point cut involving her or its simply an observation of a potential plot point on my part.
And it’s not like she’s like that all the time, as she seems to pick up on certain vibes at times, like seeing through Clementine’s determinant lie or silence about Pete’s death.
Yeah, she can pick up clues here and there, but she isn't discreet enough as she should've learned many years ago.
What, are you expecting her to completely grow out of the way she was raised within a few weeks? Admittedly, I may hav… [view original content]
Yeah, sorry I didn't reply for a bit since I legitimately lost track of this thread.
Carver was right about her needing to learn, I th… moreink we both agree Sarah needed major guidance to be an adept survivor in this world, but his way of actions just shuts her off instead of inspiring her to be better.
Pretty much. When I first played the game, I thought however he saw Sarah was one of the only hints towards a more intelligent and maybe redeeming quality of Carver's characterization, but it didn't go anywhere.
If the writing wants her to be sonic, then I guess let her be sonic.
Oh and can you tell me where I said she should die because she would never learn to survive, I looked a tiny bit, did Ctrl + F "die", never found anything regarding this, and I'm pretty tired as is so I can't be arsed to look through paragraphs all over again if it exist, plus it's your argument about my alleged hypocrisy, not mine.
… [view original content]
Comments
SAME!! God I love clem so much. I played her as a pretty big asshole in season 2 except she was pretty nice to the cabin survivors so season 3 clem fits my canon perfectly.
Mariana gave me a Clementine feeling (obviously she can't replace Clem nearly enough but ye) all over again, Mariana was smart too, I just can just simply imagine them becoming friends and Clem teaching her how to survive after Javier failed to teach them apparently. It's still better than Clem and Gabe becoming friends.
The thing is that Clementine in seasons 1 & 2 while younger, still showed intelligence and pragmatic thinking here and there, Clem simply is just great at learning (intelligent), kind, pragmatic when needed, etc. It's very apparent that Sarah couldn't handle basic social skills and lacked restraint from her age (talking while Carver is talking to everyone, thinking her father is in the wrong for hitting her, not doing her work which makes it worse, etc.)
But, she was a liability, she put the group at a disadvantage pretty much all the time. Sarah never did anything helpful and Clementine had to babysit her to keep her functioning at times, to say she wasn't a liability is a lie. We had a few episodes with Sarah and she still didn't prove that she could be a useful addition to the group, Clem didn't learn anything from her, Clem tried helping her, but in the end it doesn't work as she's too ignorant to the world they live in (Mariana could have learned how to survive I'm sure) and she will "cease to function" (Carlos quote :^) )
So, because she reminds you of Clementine(from Season 1, I assume), that somehow makes her a better friend than Sarah....
Also, Javier and Kate did seem to teach them some things, as Mariana was apparently taught to hide ahead of time and Gabe shows some ability to deal with walkers and use a gun responsibly.
Well, it is true that some people are naturally better at certain things than others. However, while pragmatic isn't a word I'd use to describe Sarah for a few reasons, there are hints/moments that she's smarter or more intuitive than people give her credit for.
So, your average teenager then?
Though clearly the problem here is that the episode mostly has her make mistakes--Minor mistakes with overtop consequences--but mistakes nonetheless.
I never said she didn't fit the broad category, no she didn't, and yes she did.
I know she had a lot of flaws and disadvantages but to say that Sarah never would've grown past them and that she only caused problems in the reasoning of a cynic/nihilist.
I was more referring to Javier's family lacking essential adept survival skills much like Clementine developed from an early stage.
Care to list her very smart moments?
You're serious? Given the extreme circumstances they were in, as a 10 year old you could comprehend the situation, when to talk, and when to not. She knows Carver is a horrible person and she has a vague idea of the outside apocalypse, she lacks social comprehension that most acquire at earlier ages.
This is true, she did, but Alvin still can help regardless.
No, she's still extremely self-reliant on her father, there's a line between her curiousness on how a firearm works and being "intuitive".
It's not like she did anything too hard, she walked and creaked on the steps, almost got detected a few times, and then left her picture on the ground instead of covering it up. Clementine was the only one who impressed Carver keeping her cool while looking him straight in the eye; keeping a stern and discreet mood.
She doesn't do enough to stop Carver, and running to her father like that just shows again she's self reliant on him, she needs control in situations, running to your parents/having to be with them at all times is something that can happen after they get out of Howe's Hardware.
So she noticed a wind turbine that was explained to the group countless times and even became a big scene in that episode, it's not observant but rather obvious. Again how is this stuff related to "liability", she's the most useless out of their entire group, helpless without her Dad, etc.
No, she got hit by Carver essentially, so she shut down even after Clem explained it wasn't Carlos' fault, and then got Reggie killed, yes I understand that Reggie had a track record, but Sarah in the end got him killed that day. Plus it's not like she had much work to do after that day, as they left soon after. Once again, Sarah is a liability, after her farther's death she shut's down really badly, screaming at a very bad time, then Luke spent hours surrounded by walkers trying to convince her, Clem has to slap her to snap her out of it kind of, again, she's a liability.
No matter how you put it, Sarah is very ignorant to the world surrounding her, before Carlos dies you have to try to calm her down as she's going to break out at any time from being scared. Yes, Rebecca was scared too, but they all knew they can't yell out for anything and are generally used to the walkers' presence. Even Clem wasn't as scared in season 1 while Lee and her walked through. Once again, she's a liability more than she actually helps, them most notable thing that she does to help is assisting Clementine but that's more of a moral thing she has, her group most likely saw it as her just giving supplies to a bitten stranger, but apparently people can't differentiate a huge; long dog bite from a walker (human like) bite.
Well, this scene is very unrealistic, she most likely should've been grabbed and chomped down, but great writing I guess.
But again, between the transition of wanting to be more helpful, she doesn't prevail with it, she admits to being a liability essentially and doesn't excuse her complete breakdown of mental entrapment for hours instead of looking for survival as her father would have wanted.
Again, she hasn't shown much, not to mention her entire role from her determinant death doesn't even help them at all, while I would've liked her to become an adept survivor, she died beforehand if it was in her to become strong.
Well, you're talking about collapsing a deck and then smack it down, she should've been way out the way, it's not unexpected, I do agree Jane was being a useless; selfish shit like normal, no disagreement there. Most people probably didn't trust her anyways to be a help as proven before she hasn't been in the past, she would have to prove herself at a well, less stressful time.
Really? Am I really a cynic for saving Sarah? I didn't help her do her work at Howe's Hardware but other than I stuck with her hoping she'd make a great change for me to like her personality and help Clementine more than Clementine always helping her.
Pretty sure I did most of that in the bullet points.
My bad! I wrote so much in the list that I must’ve over looked that part. Though to be honest, Sarah being a bit of dope at times in social situations is pretty clear in her introduction. Not to excuse her here,, but Carver’s morning report was a bit boring and I also think there either may have been a plot point cut involving her or its simply an observation of a potential plot point on my part.
And it’s not like she’s like that all the time, as she seems to pick up on certain vibes at times, like seeing through Clementine’s determinant lie or silence about Pete’s death.
What, are you expecting her to completely grow out of the way she was raised within a few weeks? Admittedly, I may have used the wrong word there; the point was that she’s able to recognize “The world is dangerous nowadays and knowing how to use a gun might come in handy if I have to defend someone, even if Dad wouldn’t allow me to learn.” In fact, that’s pretty much what she says if you wait long enough; it’s also the scene where I really started to like her.
Hence why I noted she did so in boots, granted. Really though, she did only got noticed because of the steps creaking (which they also did for the much more careful and presumably lighter Clementine) and Carver seeing the door silently(?) close at the last second. Honestly, my biggest issue with that is wondering a. why did she hide under the bed(“The people I’m looking for are very smart and very careful.”), b. why didn’t Carver think to look under the bed(“He’s a very smart man.”), and c. as you pointed out, why didn’t she grab the photo if it was close enough to the bed that she shifted back some more so Carver wouldn’t see her?
…What? What does impressing a Darwinist Egotist have to do with whether Sarah could become a better survivor or not?
She was kinda busy finishing being tied up by Troy when Carver put on his smug smirk, so I don’t know what she could’ve done at that point beyond either getting on his case verbally(which she did)or throw herself at Carver to be smacked down or even shot immediately afterwards. Also, I made the comparison to Kenny and Nick to show that I’m aware of the risk involved with such behavior. She could learn and in fact, I suspect Carver was intentionally forcing her to learn for whatever he had planned for her.
I’m noting that she’s not as completely dumb, fearful, helpless, or passive as some people seem to think she is. Yes, she has flaws and shortcomings that get her into trouble a few times but that could be said of every character—including Carver and Jane, the two who are the most critical of such a thing.
I know that dude, hence why I included it. They were there at least one more day and Clementine was gone long enough that Sarah may have been given another task or two to do after Carver got through feeding her his rhetoric.
But she didn’t start outright yelling until Carlos was suddenly hit by a stray bullet and chomped by walkers right in front of her; before that, all she did was whimper a bit due to being put in a situation she’s not prepared for while still creeping her way through (unlike Rebecca, who flat out froze despite Clementine being at her side) and it’s very possible that Clementine would’ve been able to calm her down if they didn’t encounter that snafu. Remember that Clementine had been attacked by numerous walkers by that point and witnessed/executed several deaths up till that point over the course of months; Sarah barely had any action in the two or three weeks Season 2 takes place. The lesson behind her involvement in the plot is that a good group is one that makes sure all of its members are capable of handling themselves and Carlos keeping her sheltered was a major detriment to this notion.
Also, not to get too personal by extension here, but I love how picky and hypocritical people can be about certain things. Sarah helped Clementine despite there being little to no personal gain for doing so(as Clementine can reject her friendship and not helping her would be easier than having to face Carlos for doing so) and may have prevent her from being infected from anything before the group came to let her out, thus ensuring that Clementine would be healthy enough to help the group throughout the Season, so if anything she(and determinately Alvin) did them a favor by having a heart to do so because she thought it was the right thing to do. Lee, Clementine, Kenny etc. does/did that type of shit all the time and isn’t that why people love them?
Yeah, well it’s what we have to go with. Especially since even with the greatest writing, she still would’ve made it through to have the big scene with Clementine (and Jane) that In Harm’s Way was setting up.
The point is she recognizes the problem and was trying to deal with it the way Jane did—by deluding herself into thinking whatever will make herself feel better. If you go back to the walk back from the trailer park scene, asking about whether Jaime turned or not will have Jane reveal that she’s not sure what actually happened because she just left and didn’t have the nerve to go back later to see for herself, so she eventually told herself that it was for the best and that Jaime wanted her to do that all along.
Jane chose to deal with her one bad day by writing off her sister as a lost cause as an explanation for why Jaime seemed so lethargic despite Jane’s constant encouragement of her and became a coldly pragmatic and bitter survivalist because of that. In a way, Sarah (who was close enough to the other three to have potentially heard most of what they were talking about) seemed to be taking this as advice for how to become stronger herself and tried to do the same thing by pretending the source of her trauma (Carlos’s death) never happened so she can ignore it and move on.
Now, I’m not saying that was completely what that conversation was trying to get across but it’s an interesting development given her intentions and attitude in her first three scenes.
Yeah, I know and that’s one of the fifty reasons why that climax sucks and is the worst moment of the Season, if not the Series, from a writing standpoint as far as I’m concerned. They establish her with this clear background, hint towards a desire to improve herself past her limitations, show the consequences her treatment has on her conduct, sets up her breakdown by putting her through a conga line of trauma, and put her in a place where she can only develop from her lowest point if the player so chooses, only to have killed off in excessively contrived manner without giving her a chance to actually do anything major for or against this arc.
Not to mention the fact that it puts a huge black mark on Jane’s already negative resume that makes her involvement in the finale all the more infuriating and sloppy because of it and other things. When I first played the game, saving Sarah was of course my priority but releasing that Jane had to be the one to do it actually made me want it even more because it would essentially be the first step to “redeeming” both of their characters by having them deal with that which troubled them so at the time. So her failing to save Sarah twice(I was so endeared by her that I legitimately flipped out and restarted just to make sure I didn’t do something wrong) made the moment all the more painful for me personally.
Sorry, got out of line there and I apologize. I just really hate the notion that, in a series with characters like Lee, Clementine, Kenny, Ben, the Cancer Surivors(who determinately beat up Kenny), Arvo(from a villainous standpoint), and fucking Jane herself, saying that someone like Sarah would never learn to survive and thus somehow deserves to die is something people genuinely believe and a lesson that the writers(perhaps ignorantly or even unintentionally) decided to get across. It’s extremely hypocritical to the very virtues Season 1 and perhaps the Game Series as a whole stands for, for FUCK’s sake!
So... am I gonna get banned for saying that it's stupid to get banned... well, I seriously think all the controversy is validated. Sorry for posting non topic on this thread, but this is ridiculous. Stop this crap mods...
When something is that long, I just reply from top to bottom.
And it’s not like she’s like that all the time, as she seems to pick up on certain vibes at times, like seeing through Clementine’s determinant lie or silence about Pete’s death.
Yeah, she can pick up clues here and there, but she isn't discreet enough as she should've learned many years ago.
Point being, she relies too much on her father at times, she's not resilient enough which is just supporting my argument of her being a liability. Believe me, Sarah was just getting on my nerve a bit on how she acted, but I wanted her to grow out of it eventually but we never got the chance for it to ever occur.
The floors were far too creaky anyways, I'm sure she knew this as she's lived there and honestly if she were smart she'd hide other places rather than making really loud and distinct creaking sounds when someone that dangerous is actively looking for any sign of your family. She should've opened the closet and hid, go to the hatch, etc.
Carver was smart, he had a reputation, and he definitely would've made most 11 year old girls slip a lot in their words, given this, his actual impression of Clem is more complimentary and valid on how stable she acted, regardless of how much of an asshat Carver was.
Carver was right about her needing to learn, I think we both agree Sarah needed major guidance to be an adept survivor in this world, but his way of actions just shuts her off instead of inspiring her to be better.
I'm just saying she's a liability, which is pretty damn true, you even understand this given that we both agree she needed to grow more to be a great use in this world.
Honestly, she seemed like she was about to burst at any second, Carlos seemed quite concerned. I'm not sure Clem would've plainly stopped this as will never have it occur. Yes Rebecca froze, but she's pregnant, confused, in pain, there's tons of walkers surrounding her, but she just didn't want to be alone and Jane helped her out; Rebecca didn't scream either.
As far as I can tell, Clementine didn't start whaling in very tense situations, she was very new to the apocalypse and was younger, yet served a huge role in being helpful at the same time (e.g. gets the cane to help seal the door). Clem is intelligent and always has been, Sarah obviously just doesn't compete in this criteria, she's been shut in obviously but this again doesn't mean she isn't a liability, which has been a key point in my argument this entire time. No matter whom you are, or what your situation is, that doesn't mean they're exempt from being depicted as a liability.
I agree with your first point of her helping Clementine with the hydrogen peroxide, already stated that, but I don't think you can compare Lee, Clem, Kenny, "etc", to them as Sarah didn't do enough of it nor the usefulness to protect her much, you're stretching it too far.
If the writing wants her to be sonic, then I guess let her be sonic.
Well, you built up most of this paragraph as context and observation, so don't expect a paragraph reply back but Luke tried for hours, I doubt he just said "oh yeah your father's okay" the entire time but even when Clementine gets there you can convince her almost at all and you have to risk yourself pushing furniture down to slow walkers from breaking in, etc, but slapping her for some reason instantly gets her out, it's just weird and to have that much of a breakdown proves my further case of her being a liability, barely any resilience.
Yeah, but they had to make sure Sarah died at the expense of degrading Jane's personality furthermore, classic.
I let Ben go by the way in season 1, not because I hated the kid, but I thought he convinced me enough that he doesn't want to live anymore, that he notable got many people killed indirectly. I honestly think Ben was a fuck-up, but I felt bad for him emotionally, and either way he dies really vile. Oh and can you tell me where I said she should die because she would never learn to survive, I looked a tiny bit, did Ctrl + F "die", never found anything regarding this, and I'm pretty tired as is so I can't be arsed to look through paragraphs all over again if it exist, plus it's your argument about my alleged hypocrisy, not mine.
Yeah, sorry I didn't reply for a bit since I legitimately lost track of this thread.
Pretty much. When I first played the game, I thought however he saw Sarah was one of the only hints towards a more intelligent and maybe redeeming quality of Carver's characterization, but it didn't go anywhere.
I wasn't callling you a hypocrite but the writing itself. I just really hate Carver and Jane for numerous reasons in general, but that Darwinistic mindset is a major reason, especially in Jane's case. I'm just so used to people seemingly supporting that mindset that just hearing that term irks me a bit, y'know?
No problem, I just hope you don't immediately call people like that in the future unless you know they're obviously like that.
Yeah I generally try to avoid going off on people directly unless I'm joking(or they're a fuckable).